i love poland very much, but this is true love, because it is without illusions. i realize how much still needs to be done in poland, and these eight years brutally showed it. there is still a lot of work on consciousness, how easy it is to instill and revive all kinds of nationalism in poland. this is a big problem, but not a whole. behind this is the historical memory, this feeling that we are by nature innocent, that we have not done anything bad to anyone, never, this is all based on lies, you talk about poland in such a way that sometimes i transfer it to ukraine, that we are not to blame, that our mykola gogol was only a good writer and man, but he was also an imperial tool, but he was a great writer. here is taras bulba, what was

taras bulba about? and we understand that it was written after the uprising, which the russians simply destroyed. gogol walked like a good angel of the orthodox world, praised the white king and so on. and all this was on corpses. but dead souls is a masterpiece. it is only about the fact that we, in ukraine, should be critical of our past as well. the occupation government of the occupation administration, an extremely good person, very kind, very kind, responsible, did a lot, but it turned out that we have a lot to dig into, that is , to look for some skeletons, but of course the most important thing is to look forward. absolutely yes, i totally agree.

because we understand that the political elites want to rule, and not to deal with such small matters, where money and influence are not involved. but we are you and i for that, to offer other options for looking at polish history, polish modernity, and polish-ukrainian relations relationships, that's what we are for. on the polish side , for a long time, there was such ignorance regarding ukrainian topics, and here there is a great merit of gedroyc, because he showed both ukrainian perspectives and texts, and texts of ukrainian origin. that shot revival

was a beautiful book, and it was done by gedroits. we in poland had very little of it, we only really started it. we suddenly heard a completely different voice of ukraine, and it is a voice that fascinates, interests and commands respect, great respect. i agree, but you know what i'm afraid of, the village doesn't listen zahadana, the village listens to orban, you are right, but everything always starts with something, if you start by explaining to people in the provinces, in

the villages, who was rudnytskyi the fox? orban to the polish village is orban a friend of yaroslav kaczyński? the polish orban is

not the only one like that. the slovaks have already heard fizo, not other colossus, and this is a threat. it will be a challenge, but it is largely up to us. who will take whom by force, the force of thought, the force of arguments and the force of hard work. let's see. nothing is known, for sure, but we have chances, we have received enormous opportunities, quite, of course, these are tragic possibilities, because they were created by the war. putin's brutal bandit attack on ukraine. but on the other hand, it showed the possibility and the polish reaction. i must say that i was impressed by the first spontaneous reaction of polish society to refugees from ukraine, which i did not expect so much. this creates some hope in me that it is possible otherwise. that the collective

consciousness of poland is not doomed to the traditional andean way of thinking.

russia's greatest fear has always been polish-ukrainian understanding. we speak about it for almost half an hour, but they were always afraid of it. they were afraid in the 17th century, they were afraid in the 19th century, they were afraid in the 20s. i do not agree with this, because they were not afraid of it so much, and even rather took it lightly. you did not believe in fact that there is no ukraine, there is malosiya, there is no ukraine, and ukrainian is a corrupted russian, it did not occur to them that this could all be serious, pilsutsky broke it, and he tried, but this is how

history turned out then , did not work.

who would not write about polish co-responsibility? did he object responsibility for murder? i don't remember exactly, but it was so distinctly anti-ukrainian, written in at the last moment, i remember, by a guy who is a kremlin enthusiast. he comes from the psl, write something

about the upa? no, it was a moscow strategy to sow discord here, it was done deliberately. of course, i also feel the influence of circles connected, possibly with the kremlin. i no longer believe in useful idiots. we also have very strong historical legislation, i don't know how to build polish-ukrainian understanding with historical arguments and discuss it legislation, it is also a problem, it can be explosive. it will happen, i agree, but the path to heaven is not strewn with trojan petals, there are also thorns. i will also walk on thorns. "we must win in this, we must leave this as a legacy to our children and our grandchildren, this will be

our great success of our time, this is a polish-ukrainian unification, gedroyc worked on this, he worked on this, like kuron, a lot , these were his obsessions, he was actually the father of the wing of democratic positions in poland, he knew that the path of neglect or disregard". i remember him when i came to kyiv in 1989 for the movement's congress. i say this, i understand that we are in the same team. it was said very firmly that polish solidarity is on your

side. will this or that advice be heard by those who decide and put their signatures on this or that piece of paper? even if it is not fully heard, it is our duty to repeat ours.

professionalism and our human decency. if we do not do this, then we will betray ours , we must repeat, because this is an indicator of our profession. there is no chance for an independent poland without free and independent ukraine. amen, mr. editor. amen. well, i would like to remind our tv viewers that

adam michnik, a legendary polish journalist, founder of the no less legendary election newspaper, was currently working on the air of tv channel uso. russian dissident. today in the verdict program with serhii rudenko. a carefully planned action. the suspect in the murder of iryna farion could be preparing assassination attempts on other ukrainian politicians. are the russian special services involved in the brazen shooting of a public figure. in lviv. chinese voyage dmytro kuleba. beijing assures kyiv of supporting sovereignty and territorial integrity, but continues to help russia in its war of aggression. results of the visit of the minister of foreign affairs of ukraine. very good conversation. donald trump spoke with

volodymyr zelenskyi about the war with the country with a military machine that defeated hitler and... napoleon. how does trump's peace plan, voiced by boris johnson, threaten ukraine? glory to ukraine, this is the verdict program. my name is serhiy rudenko, i greet everyone and wish everyone good health. over the next two for hours we talk about ukraine, the world and our victory. well, we have a very big evening today. informative, and it will be divided into two parts: in the first part of our program, oleksiy goncharenko and volodymyr ogrysko will be present, in the second part, which will begin in exactly an hour, there will be my colleagues, journalists, yanina sokolova and andriy yanitsky, we will talk about everything that was during the last week, both in foreign and domestic politics, let's touch on kuleba's visit to

china, let's talk about how the ministry of internal affairs cited about... the detention of the alleged murderer of iryna farion, in short, the pace is enough for thinking and talking. however, before starting our big conversation, i suggest you watch the video of how the soldiers of the 79th tavrian brigade of the russian armed forces in the kurakhiv direction repelled another powerful enemy attack, this time the russians attacked ukrainian positions with three tanks and 13 bmps. let's see what they got out of it.

friends throughout the broadcast we are conducting a survey, today we are asking you about whether you think the third world war inevitable, why are we actually asking about this, because this was stated by the former commander-in-chief of the armed forces of ukraine, mr. zaluzhny, general zaluzhny, while in london this week, and therefore we are interested in what you think about this, whether you consider the third world war inevitable for this, grant tautology to the world. so, yes, no, everything is quite simple on youtube, either yes or no, leave your own opinion, please in the comments under this video, if you watch us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote for the numbers, if you do you think the third world war is inevitable, 0800 211-381, no, 0800 211-382, all calls to these numbers are free, vote,

at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote, and we have the first person on the line.. oleksiy goncharenko, people's deputy of ukraine, president of the committee of the parliamentary assembly of the council of europe on migration and refugees. mr. oleksiy, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today. i congratulate you. first of all, mr. oleksiy, let's start with a high-profile murder, with a terrorist act, which was committed exactly a week ago, on july 19 , iryna farion was killed in the center of lviv, today, halytskyi district court. lviv chose a preventive measure for the person detained on suspicion of the murder of farion, arrest for 60 days without the right to bail, the day before... the one-year-old boy was informed of suspicion under the article of intentional murder, which provides from seven to 15 years of imprisonment. law enforcement officers are investigating

the connections of the suspect in the murder of the ex-national deputy with russian neo-nazi movements and the possible involvement of russian special services in the crime, and this was announced today at a briefing serhii andrushchenko, first deputy head of the security service of ukraine. at the morning briefing, we will listen to what he... said, regarding the involvement of the specified person , a complex of measures is being carried out and we are studying his connections on the territory of ukraine and abroad, and one of the versions is the involvement of the special services of the aggressor country in the organization of the specified crime, at the same time, the use of the beard, we look at different situations and different crimes that were committed on the territory of ukraine and the possible involvement of the specified person. mr. oleksiy, the murder of iryna farion is one of the the murders of numerous murders that were in ukrainian politics, of ukrainian politicians,

but if the perpetrators were still more or less somehow understood, and not completely, for example, as in the murder of journalist pavlo sheremet, then there were no cases and no conclusions at all with the perpetrators and there were no verdicts, what do you think about the case? will we find out who ordered this murder? i really hope for this, i really want it to become known, and for us to find out, and for the customers to be convicted and punished, because if it really was organized by the russian federation and the special services, so that we at least get to know about it, but we will see, of course, like everyone else, i am following this trial. and in this situation, of course, only the court will determine whether it is really the murderer farion or not, you and i remember the story about the detention of the so-called

suspects at that time was loud, remember the briefing and the president and the minister of the interior, and who there is the general prosecutor, it seems that when the case fell apart and it looks like it was... people who were absolutely newsworthy at that time were blamed, kuzmenko, antonenka and dugar, antonenka, dugar, and all that fell apart, but people there spent a lot of time in prisons, their lives were ruined to a large extent, and apparently they have nothing to do with it, so i'm very careful about it everything will happen, let's see what the result will be, if this young man is real, and if he is, then what... his motive is, but it is very important to find out, because it is obvious that this is a serious threat, and such crimes shake

the country as well, well, first of all, a crime, any crime is not a crime, but a political murder and a political one violence can have completely different consequences for the whole country already, so of course i really want all this to be investigated, what were the plus points. well, mr. oleksi, it is obvious that we need to talk not only about the facts of how a person is killed in the center of lviv, but also about how our special services work to prevent this from happening, meaning the security service of ukraine and the ministry of internal affairs, because we see only the post, well, the post-observation of what happened, but we do not hear the answers, and why is this at all happened in the middle of the city of lviv? well, you are right, although i want to, well, i have... my own experience, the fact is that russia ordered my murder twice, kidnapping once, and torture, and all these crimes were warned by the security service of ukraine, and the fact that

this is russia, i can claim, because the last thing is that they wanted to kidnap me there and burn out my eyes, all this means that the customer was the deputy at that time the head of the faction of the opposition bloc, well, that is, everything is clear, but further after that, how he was detained, and... russia exchanged him for ukrainian ones prisoners of war, thus confirming who was actually behind it. therefore , the fact that i am talking to you now is, in principle, a testimony of the professionalism of the ukrainian security service, and i want to thank the employees of the security service of ukraine, who have already saved my life at least twice. therefore, of course, unfortunately, there is no special service in the world that could prevent all crimes, what can i say. when we saw with you recently the attempt on a candidate for the presidency of the united states and an ex-president of the united states, where by some miracle he remained alive, then

it is obvious that there is no such thing. of the special services that can warn of everything, the ukrainian special services are developing and, in principle , warned of many things, unfortunately, in the situation with iryna farion, they could not do this. in your opinion, the russians will continue to bet on the division of ukrainian society, on the destabilization of ukrainian society, on the demoralization of ukrainian society, well , in the end, this murder can be qualified as a terrorist act, because it is an act that aims not only , let's say... so to destroy a person, but also to sow fear and despair in ukrainian society, it is quite possible, although again we do not yet know whether it was really ordered by the russian special services, of course, that the russian special services are capable of anything, and here is the thing that, well, i do not doubt their ability, but did this particular crime happen precisely because of them and they disorganized it, i'm not sure about that, i don't really understand

the motive right now, why would they... they should have done it, so i don't know until i'm ready to say, but that russia will do everything to split ukrainian society in order to sow fear, despair, that is exactly what terrorism is, terror is fear, well, that is, it is to sow fear, this is the definition of terror, of course, russia sows this terror every day in ukraine, with shaheeds, rockets, but and murders too. i also want to ask you how the president of the pare committee on migration issues and... and refugees, because actually this is the topic of ukrainians who are abroad and who fled to europe, and in particular the minister of foreign affairs of poland, radysław sikorski in an interview radio rmf-24 said about the fact that in europe it is possible to create such conditions of stay for ukrainian men that will force them to return to ukraine and stand up for its protection. let's listen to what sikorsky said.

this is a debate we are having in the european union, because if we introduced a national solution, these people would move to countries where they can avoid military service. it is possible to create such conditions for the stay of ukrainians in the eu, which will stimulate them to fulfill their duty to protect the homeland. i understand, mr. oleksiy, so far poland is talking about it, germany categorically, still against it. countries consider such an option? look, we periodically hear such statements from different politicians in different countries, but honestly, as a person who understands the system, well, i am the first, legally they cannot deport ukrainians, it is simply impossible, and therefore it is just a let talk and after the words, when he said about

the conditions, to create such conditions that... they voluntarily did it, that's another story, but what are those conditions, that is, roughly speaking, to take away any aid, yes, that's probably what they can do, but will it really lead to the fact that these people will go to ukraine, well, it is far, it is far from a fact, and we do not know the answer to this question, so i would not really count on it, if someone in ukraine is counting in this way, it means to get what there is... well, there are people who can be mobilized, well, i'll be honest, i strongly doubt that it can work in this way, i don't understand how these, well, let 's do it anyway are there, are there ukrainian men of mobilization age abroad in europe, yes, they are definitely there, this is a fact, but do they make up some kind of majority there, well , no, it’s still not true, and more...

women, children, elderly people, ah, and men who are there legally, because not everyone a 20-year-old man has been there for eight years and is subject to mobilization in ukraine, and here is the question of his health, maybe he is a father of many children, maybe he looks disabled, and so on and so forth, so i doubt that this will really lead to anything, but so that well, well, that is, i am so skeptical about this, i... understand why they do they talk about it, and i understand how a person, well, in ukraine, and it is unpleasant for us to see, and to know, that there are people who crossed the yew there, yes, illegally left ukraine in order to simply leave, abandoned their homeland, well , but the realism of the fact that they will somehow create such conditions that they will return, to be honest, i strongly doubt it, mr. oleksiy, with the adoption of the law.