to our colleagues at the bbc, they are also taking up the information initiative this evening. please separatist rebels destroyed a column of russian mercenaries in mali. what is known about this case and how exactly... the wagnerites were destroyed, the next 15 minutes of the bbc broadcast, dzaferov works in a studio in london, is about it. the fighters of the russian african corps are mostly former mercenaries of the wagner military command, who suffered heavy losses on the malian-algerian border. russian mercenaries advanced deep into the territories captured by the tuareg separatists, but at night against july 26, when the column of mercenaries was already approaching algiers. dona, she was covered by

a sandstorm. the column stopped, and then the toaregs took the opportunity and staged an ex-wagnerian ambush, in which they suffered the largest loss of fighters in their foreign operations since 2018. this does not apply to the war in ukraine, where their losses were much greater, so what is known about the losses of the wagnerites in mali, this is how the topic was summarized by the journalist of the russian service of the bbc, ilya barabanov, who... talked to his sources from among former mercenaries. it is known that during the last week, the african corps of the ministry of defense, together with the armed forces of mali , conducted an operation against the rebels near the malian-algerian border. russian mercenaries of pmk wagner are present in mali starting from 2021. however, after last year's justice march and the death of yevgeny prigozhin, all african units of the pmc were transferred under

the control of the ministry of defense. deputy minister of defense yunusbek yevkurov personally visited mali, where the former wagner players signed a contract with the ministry defense of the russian federation. read the article by ilya barabanov with details of what and where happened to the russian mercenaries in mali on our website bbc.ua in the article with the title of an ambush for the wagnerites, as separatists are oregs. defeated russian mercenaries, in this article my colleagues collected everything that is known about the losses of russians in mali. therefore, russian sources say that 20 to 50 russian servicemen could have died as a result of the combat. however, one bbc source gave different figures, at least 82 mercenaries died in a tuareg attack. the rebels themselves say that they captured or damaged.

a large amount of equipment and weapons, there are also prisoners, and today it was the topic of prisoners that the spokesman of ukrainian intelligence , andriy yusaf, commented on, because this statement appeared on social networks that the rebels allegedly want to hand over these captured wagnerites in the country. the bbc cannot confirm the veracity of this post, but andriy yusev said that this is sensitive information, such data exists, it is being checked, we will not comment on the details, but... who are they tuareg and why are they fighting with russian mercenaries? the tuaregs are an ethnic group of berbers, they live on the territory of mali and algeria, and those who live in mali are now fighting for their independence and want to create their own state, azawat. amali, which is currently headed by a military junta, does not recognize the independence of the tooregs and has sent its army to that region, where russian mercenaries serve along with the malits. and now

we will talk in more detail about the incident in mali with an african researcher from the global ukraine foundation marto oliynyk dzyomichko. i congratulate you, marta, but i would like to start with the tuaregs. the fact that they have stopped the army of mali and the russian mercenaries so far. is it luck after all, is it them, or do they have a heavily armed wing? i congratulate you. in fact, the tuaregs are from the 60s of the last century. are actually waging this armed struggle for their state, for an independent state, citizen, that is why they really have weapons, in 2012, when there was their last big uprising, they received weapons from libya, in addition, there is certain information that they may receive some weapons, supplies directly somewhere from certain groups affiliated with al-qaeda, but again, this is not one hundred percent information, that is, there are no photos, there is no confirmation, let's just say so in the information. this

information about possible such cooperation is circulating in this space, that is , i am more inclined to the fact that this confrontation, the last hot phase, it has been going on since august 23 and... the tuaregs then suffered several losses at the end of last year, that is, they let's say, lost certain territories, and accordingly they are trying to win them back now, so i think that they were preparing for this, and this is most likely a failure, not some kind of, let's say, not a failure, not some such spontaneous accident. well, you said that they have been fighting for their statehood, for their independence for a long time, but is it real, because the territories, first of all, are the majority of the territories, it is... as far as i remember, 60% or even more of the territory of mali , and in these territories there, these territories are rich in various minerals and gold, or are they really at all get that independence? in my opinion, this is something from the realm of fiction, because in fact the tuaregs, they live in

mali, niger, burkina faso, algeria, libya, that is, it will be quite large in terms of territory, if, let's say, in their plans it is the state, and the village should be quite large in terms of territory. and they proclaimed it in 2012, but no one recognized it, so it is unlikely that even now in the course of their struggle they will be able to achieve any concrete changes in this regard, but as far as i remember, it seems that this state does not recognized, it stood for one year, it seems the central african republic, then there the wagnerites managed to get into certain, let's say, political circles and influence internal political processes, certain coalitions that are formed in the political plane of this country. in mali, an interesting fact, by the way, is related to the tuaregs when they were captured

the city of kidal, which is quite important for the tuaregs, at the end of november last year, it was the flag of the wagnerites that was hung above it, at first, then of course it was removed and the flag of mali was hung, but this moment is just as important. to note how free the wagnerites feel now in mali, their influence is growing more and more, especially in the sahel, taking into account that they are now also in burkina faso, and there is talk that they are also arriving in niger, and taking into account this nuance that burkina faso and niger are small united in a confederation, created an alliance of seychellois states, a confederation among themselves, that is, their role in this region, it can undergo a strengthening, but this moment, which was so... a big attack by the tuareg, that the wagnerians failed, he shows in fact that they are not so effective when it comes to the real fight against jihadists, about the real fight against insurgents, that is, it is one thing to deal with unarmed peasants, to cut whole villages, in order to achieve their economic interests,

to kill the innocent population, but it is another matter when you face someone who also has a weapon in his hands and knows how to use it. marta, please stay in touch, we will continue the conversation in a minute. "correspondents, correspondents of the bbc arab service were the first to get to mali after the armed coup and then a fragment of the story about the conditions under which russian mercenaries expanded their activities in mali. this is how the journey of a thousand miles begins. through the vast deserts there is an invisible conflict where wagner fighters, jihadists and separatist groups are fighting. it is impossible to move here without a convoy and increased security. this is the only way to get to camps like this one. this is the only school in the district. children are taught to recite verses from the koran. this is the only education

they can get. these orphans lived in an area controlled by al-qaeda. their parents were killed. we spent 5 days on the way to this remote camp. perhaps the stories of these children are hidden from the world, but this is another generation whose lives have been destroyed because of the so-called islamic state. fatima, along with her daughter and grandchildren, walked hundreds of miles from their village in which they lived to reach the camp. the islamic state forced us to come here, they forced us, killed our men and burned all the food. there is a severe lack of medicine and food here, some children suffer from fever. jihadists may be retreating in the middle east, but their influence in the african region is growing. that is why at first some people were happy about the arrival of the russians. wagnerites

have been present in mali since 2021. then, in as a result of a military coup, the junta headed by colonel asimi goita came to power. soon after, more than five left mali. thousands of french servicemen. to replace them, colonel goeita invited wagner's mercenaries. they promised to overcome the islamic threat and give the population a peaceful life. however, western countries are not the same. wagner's mercenaries repeatedly accused him of violating human rights in africa, in particular through reports of gruesome executions, mass burials, torture and robbery. in these shots, which were made public by the french the military, before leaving mali, the mercenaries bury the bodies of the killed in the sand. the un contingent also left the country, and the organization is now calling for an investigation into the crimes of pmk wagner in mali. and we return to the conversation with marta olinikomychko, but it was a report. bbc arab service from mali yesterday, it seems that the military junta made a mistake

when it bet on russian mercenaries to overcome the armed resistance of the islamists, how do you see the way out of this crisis? in fact, this is quite such a complex and complex issue, since there are quite a few in the sahel a large number of the unemployed population, the young, male population, and it is this that the jihadists recruit into their ranks, and therefore not only... the way out of this situation lies in the military plane, the way out of this situation also lies in the development of local communities, in the economy, in attraction, in growth, but for this, accordingly, it is necessary to have good partners in place, good authorities in place, which will be interested in the development of the country, which will be interested in enriching not only themselves, but also their immediate environment, not strengthening in authorities, and which will actually be interested in improving the living conditions for the local population, if we recall again about this year, when the wagnerites were invited, that is... at the end of the 21st year and the 22nd year, according to statistical data , it was just the biggest, the bloodiest,

there were the most victims then, that is, again , the wagnerites are engaged in a small way in what is called stabilization, cementing the current political regime, but their successes against the jihadists, who are the main, let's say , risk, which are the main problem is small, well, they are doubtful, well, this is the biggest loss of wagnerites in africa so far, will the pmk like wagner stop? bites to earn in the war? i think that it is unlikely, because they, like this octopus, have taken root in many african countries, and for them they are involved not only in the military plan, in the information plan, in the economic plan, they get access to gold for this, for example, as in sudan , did they receive diamonds in central africa, they are small, their monthly payment is in statistical data somewhere around 10.8 million dollars a month, that is, they are such an e... let's say this, a military, economic product that russia sells, from which russia benefits, so it is unlikely that

they, even after such a loss, they are already trying to whiten , to tell there that everything is not so unambiguous and so further, in order to somehow, let's say, disguise this failure and look, let's say, not so, not so sad, not so negative, as it is now, but this loss , she still, in your opinion, she greatly influenced their image in africa? in general, mali is in such a way that according to statistical data, 1,000, 100-1,500 and 80 out of 1,000, well, quite so big, well, let's say, a big, big number, and as of now it is still difficult to predict how it will be, how it will have an impact, but it is possible that those african countries that are watching, who may be considering cooperation with russia somewhere in this regard, we can mention, for example, where the republic of congo, where russia is trying very hard to enter, perhaps at such moments for those who have not yet decided on... future plans, it it is really possible to have, have its influence, that is, for some time after

at the very least, it may slow down. and now we have the last question, in which part of the sahel is the situation with radical islamism the worst? it is the worst in the tri -demarcation zone, that is, the point on the map where the region converges, where the borders of malibur, kinafas, and niger converge, and that is precisely where the largest number of victims is, where the entire territory that the owner owns. controlled by various different groups, various, let's say, islamist movements, that's where the largest number of victims is, that's where the most negative situation is. thank you marta, marta aliynyk dyomichka, a researcher at the global ukraine foundation, was in touch with us. thank you. so subscribe to our pages on social networks so as not to miss the most important news, we are on facebook, instagram and tiktok, on youtube you can watch our episode if you missed it on the air. so, that's all for today, look for more stories on our website bbc.ua, and we'll be back on the air

tomorrow at 9 o'clock, take care. we continue the new week with espresso. thank you for... with us, these are khrystyna yatskiv and andrii smolii. in the 2nd hour we promised you an honest conversation with our honest, sincere, frank thoughts about what's going on, about the...trends that are emerging within our country right now, i think that's very important, really, especially when it comes to critical moments, and undoubtedly, the murder of iryna farion is an extremely critical event of recent times, the fact is that we, the people who were engaged in information and

information analysis, could often act. to the person of iryna farion, as a politician, as a freedom activist, as a linguist, scientist, intellectuals, and in accordance with the informational occasion we discussed, of course we talked about iryna farion in different guises, sometimes they were critical remarks about some points that concerned people in the occupied territories. about the territories, for example, now my colleagues from youtube are reporting that youtube itself , with its algorithms, is sending them a long-recorded video of my performance, in particular about, this shot is small, this is the vision of the situation with the crimean student, to whom, who wrote a letter to mrs. irina, and it turned out to be publicized, in

in principle, personal data, and the person received very... problems in the occupation, this video contained critical assessments of ms. irina's actions in general, and how many people could criticize her for something from their position, but god, of course, never it is about the fact that within our country, having different visions of a certain situation, we generally talk about, well, physical destruction or... cancellation of this or that personality, that is, if you, excuse me, are not a pro-russian element, then in principle we can talk and we have to talk to each other, that's absolutely okay, it’s hard to disagree with vitaly portnikov here, maybe not everyone would want to live in iryna farion’s country, and iryna farion might not want to live in the country of many of us, as we imagine our

state to be ideal, but on we and ukraine to talk about... about how we can come together in one field, in the field of our single country, which would suit absolutely everyone and which would be compromising and loyal to all those who are in general for the existence of the ukrainian state . well, we must remind in any case about polls, and before we continue our analysis in general, so friends, please fill in absolutely free and participate in our... polls, do you think the case of iryna farion, the murder of iryna farion is solved? yes, 0800-211-381, no, 0800-211 382, ​​all your calls are absolutely free, and at the end of this hour, you and i will summarize the results of this

survey, as we say. talking about farion, you see, how much time has passed, a week and a half, yes, we see that there is a suspect, yes, and we see, unfortunately, to the extent that there is a great distrust of law enforcement agencies, there is a huge distrust, allegedly, whether it is really a suspect, a murderer. it's different, people talk different, and that's where, you know, i really didn't like these trends, in fact, during the week, a huge number of people were just laughing there, saying: but listen, well, it can't be this person, they did some specific assessments, everyone has become experts again here in ukraine, but, on the other hand, i

perfectly understand why this is happening, this is how it happens... because for years and decades, unfortunately, the law enforcement system has not demonstrated the successes and virtues it should have demonstrated. let's remember the murder of gongadze, the murder of sheremet, the murder of sadikov, and finally, listen, dozens, dozens of murders of various kinds, including journalists. including public figures, the murder of chornovol, well, this is, if we talk like this, very retrospectively, if we talk about very ancient times, even if we take the times there, starting from in 2014, after the revolution of dignity, i apologize, even then, there were a huge number of questions for law enforcement agencies, and the last one was the murder of sheremet, accusations

of yes, antonenko, accusations of dugars, accusations of others, yes, yes, people who, which then simply fell apart , and i understand you, i understand why people don't believe, why people, even when it comes out... starts talking, a lot of very people just don't believe it, and even if it's true, even if it's true, even if law enforcement has done a huge work, i believe that specifically in in this case with the murder of iryna farion , the law enforcement officers did a great job, uh, well, i believe that they did, but in this case , i don't think that they didn't do anything there, but just this mistrust, it is, unfortunately... so far until now, the result that we have today, when people, people think that this is not the right person, well

, relatively speaking, we have to wait, i think, until there is some evidence in order to finally talk about something, right , but still, still, be that as it may, we have as of now the official suspect, we have the same ... a huge number of questions about him, we saw in the courtroom, the way the suspect behaved, and probably the main thing is that the national police, their representatives in principle, say that that this murder is considered solved, and this resonates very seriously, even with the interim results of the survey that we are conducting today, let's listen to the deputy head of the national police, the chief of the criminal police andrii nibitov, he... on the air at our hon. a colleague from radio svoboda explained why he believes that the murder has been solved, despite the fact that the weapon has not yet been found, it was very easy to

follow a person who was wearing certain clothes and entered the forest and somewhere in 100 hectares, i don't remember the name, well, the name of this forestry, it was lost somewhere, but nevertheless, it came out somewhere, and in order for it to come out somewhere... from the forest, for this, operatives of the criminal investigation, worked 24/7 for six days, they found this person, they found without disguise, we found this person who was on the scout for the first time without masking, we managed to do it and that's why this crime was solved, i think, well, in any case, i think that the law enforcement officers will have to give answers to other questions, whether russia was involved in this crime, huh. we saw the information, the law enforcement officers confirmed it, that the suspect actually was a participant or communicated with various kinds

of neo-nazis, neo-nazis who allegedly, who allegedly publish this information, communicate with ukrainians on social networks, that is, this is the first thing that should also be mentioned to say whether russia is involved or not were before... by the way, here, people who may have helped, i.e. accomplices, this is also, i think, an answer to these questions is needed, and in general, i think that more evidence needs to be presented over a period of time for our public so that people can understand whether this evidence is true or not. they are exhaustive, or maybe there are some additional ones, the case is resonant, the case is, well, probably one of

the most important from the point of view of the unity of our country, from the point of view of peace in our country, because this case, it resonates, and here, if here russia is really involved in this, no matter what anyone says, but as they say, it's almost in the apple, almost in the apple. as far as society has again demonstrated that some are for, some are against, everyone started discussing it, and that's why it's really a matter of honor, i think, for our law enforcement system, to bring it to an end, to bring it to a conclusion, to demonstrate all the evidence for so that no one has doubts... because if there are doubts, these seeds of mistrust will be sown, and

it will be impossible to do anything about it. not alone in distrust will be sown, in fact the russian federation is trying in every possible way to directly or indirectly sow them, and what i am talking about, if you follow the activities of all racist publics after the death of farion, then all of them in one voice began to remind her of the conflict with the third assault unit, with the ukrainian military, among which... and here they emphasize are russian speakers, excuse me already, and actually, once again throwing in the thesis that the ukrainian military, dear ukrainians, can be dangerous for you, ask ms. farion what she thinks about this score, about the same goals i think they can pursue, specifically

rocking with kindling. which we talked about with mr. prytula, in particular with many other incidents in which the ukrainian military appears as a potentially dangerous social unit, stay away from them, and then they will not come to you, this is generally the mantra that they gave birth to on february 22, 2024, chase them out of your cities and then they won't fly into your cities, so they're always there. and they are still trying to distance themselves from ukrainian society from the institution that enjoys the most trust in our ukrainian world, now the army is and still is the institution that enjoys direct trust, and no matter what it is with all the other, let's say, positions that work, that are proposed by our sociologists people, but...

the army still remains and will remain in the first place, russia is certainly not satisfied with this, therefore any shake-up of the situation in this direction is just as beneficial to them, but, but, but this is for one part of society, and for another part of society another russian narrative is thrown in, which is now spreading through all possible information dumps, it concerns the fact that, look, ukrainian-speakers or those people who are fighting for the ukrainian language, yes, there are hardly any... the fascists are obsessed that these are people who do not have the right to indicate something to someone there, that again this thesis "fortress lviv", such an absolutely racist narrative, when the status of lviv is completely devalued or humiliated, it is demonstrated that lviv is some supposedly crazy city there, which constantly demands something there ukrainian, but the other part of ukraine does not want this ukrainian, but there is this crazy

galicia. the obsessed, obsessed west of ukraine constantly demands something from someone, and this is what, by the way, has been spreading all these days after the murder of farion, including in social networks, a huge number of bots, a huge amount of hatred that poured out in the comments specifically towards the residents of our country, well , relatively speaking, from the west of our country, and they were allegedly associated there with farion's position that everyone there is like farion, although. with on the other hand, to be honest, to put it mildly, to say the least, what is wrong with farion, farion, we could disagree with certain situations that she comments on or discuss about it, but basically in her own way, well, sorry , if we talk about the essence, and not about possibly some emotional message there, yes about the essence of that, then in principle, if you

look there... the absolute majority of what farion said, well, i don’t know, i think, there in the neighboring in poland, this is how they talk about polish, in neighboring hungary, this is how they talk about hungarian, in neighboring romania, that's how they talk about romanian, i mean countries that are similar to us, we shouldn't focus there on countries that are nothing like us, well, when someone there compares ukraine and switzerland, for example, well, russia. once again , i absolutely narrated that there are four languages ​​in switzerland or somewhere else there are two languages ​​or three languages, and stop comparing countries that are in no way connected to ukraine, because there are unitary states, there are federal states, there are states that are simply were artificially created milestones of history because they were created so for to divide the political map, as in africa, for example.