greetings, friends, live on the espresso tv channel, the second part of the verdict program, my name is serhiy rudenko, and for the next 45 minutes we will talk about the following. tax increases are inevitable. a hole in the budget of 500 billion hryvnias forces the government to resort to strict fiscal measures. politicians, are ukrainians ready to pay more? personnel scandals in the army, instead of dismissal, kombrig and shkulov were promoted after subordinates publicly defended him. is democracy acceptable in the army during wartime? russian front inside of ukraine, from burned military vehicles to political murders of public figures.

the russians are trying to destabilize the situation. friends, we work live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms. for those who are currently watching us on these platforms, please join our pages and also take part in our survey. today we ask you about the following: are you ready for a tax increase in ukraine? yes, no, everything is quite simple on youtube. if you have your own opinion, please leave it in the comments below this video. if you are watching us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote with the appropriate numbers. so, if you are ready to raise taxes in ukraine, call 0800-211-381, not 0800 211-382. all calls to these numbers are free, vote, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. i would like to introduce the guests of today's program, this is maksym rozumny, political expert, doctor of political science. nauk, mr. maxim, i congratulate you,

thank you for being with us today, congratulations, kind evening, and oleksiy koshel, doctor of historical sciences, political scientist, chairman of the committee of voters of ukraine, should join us, we are waiting for him to be included, and since mr. maksym, we ask our tv viewers whether they are ready for a tax increase in ukraine, well this seems like a rhetorical question, and to ask ukrainians whether they are ready, no one is ready for a tax increase, i will ask you, are you ready for a tax increase in ukraine? well, i'm probably ready, but how can i be a conscious citizen, not ready to raising taxes, but as a political scientist, a political analyst, i still try to forecast the situation, and if now experts from... economists are talking about the fact that

about 40% of the ukrainian economy is in the shadows, then i think that after the increase in taxes, if this percentage will increase by more than half, that is, more than 50% will be in the shadows, it will be difficult to fight with it, it will probably be impossible, and it will put into great doubt, so to speak, the success of this plan, i mean filling the budget extra money, but it's obvious that the government will still be forced to move in the direction of somehow increasing the state's income, and we will actually observe these maneuvers in the coming months in the political environment, in the verkhovna rada, er, in the comments. our leaders, heads of state

and, obviously, ordinary citizens. thank you, mr. maksym, and we have already been joined by oleksiy koshel, doctor of historical sciences, political scientist, head of the commission for the voters of ukraine, mr. oleksiy, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today. good evening. today, mr. oleksiy, we are conducting a survey and asking our people tv viewers about whether they are ready for tax increases in ukraine. mr. maksym has already answered this question, are you ready for the increase in taxes in ukraine, which is announced in the office of the president of ukraine? i want this decision to be prepared in the cabinet of ministers and for this decision to be comprehensive. that is, yes, the state treasury needs quite serious funds, yes, we are waging a war, we need to accumulate all internal resources as much as possible, but i am not sure whether the only way is to raise taxes, that is, we have a lot articles in the budget that can be cut, and

they are talking about it, if i am not mistaken, somewhere at the end of january this year, i heard the first statements that the budget for this year needs to be revised, well, i will remind you, it will be soon... august, so far i have not saw no bill. issue number two is the implementation of reforms that can give quick money. first of all, this is a matter of customs. i met the figure for the 20th year, for the 20th year, representatives of the cabinet of ministers talked about the fact that due to gray schemes at customs, i emphasize, due to gray schemes, not due to contraband we lose 8 billion dollars every year. a huge number. now she never. did not happen, the third question, reasonable privatization, which should be carried out now, there was recently a pr campaign that the kozatzky hotel was sold there for a record price, well , i go to my office near this hotel every day, it is right on independence square, here are the windows go to the fountains, i took

a calculator, calculated, the hotel on independence square was sold at a price of 1 thousand dollars per square meter, well, sorry, in lviv there are so-called khrushchevs. are cheaper at the outskirts, i am not talking about the city center, so there must be reasoned decisions, and of course, i will remind the words of the special representative of the united states, who is responsible for the economic recovery of ukraine, pena pritzker, who said yesterday that it is necessary to eliminate gray schemes and clearly called, these are cigarettes, and i will remind, according to the data of international currency. fund only on gray cigarettes, we lose every year from 17 to 31 billion hryvnias every year on some unfortunate cigarettes, gray alcohol, er, petroleum products and many

other things, that is, we need to save, more we are raising taxes, but we are raising them sensibly, it is not just, you know, the format of a batuga, but let's wave now. and the money will go to the treasury, you raise taxes, a shadow automatically appears, gray and black schemes automatically appear, and it will be in any market, so you need to raise taxes wisely, and now we are offered such a black and white option , these are bad for them, we will give 30%, there is a jewelry business, well, excuse me, it will still fall, even a jewelry business, it will still fall on ordinary people, because people get married, buy wedding rings. people are born, baptized, buy crosses, relatively speaking, and citizens will pay for this 30% even, even for such a rather specific business, i am not talking about everything else, by the way, the cabinet of ministers also proposes to increase taxes, i

don't know , who who who was the first, whether the cabinet of ministers or the president's office proposed, well , we perceive it as a single team, after all, which is currently working... because there is a mono-power, there is a mono-majority, there is a mono-responsibility, so the minister of finance serhiy marchenko in interview rbc ukraine said that the deficit of the state budget this year is estimated at uah 500 billion, and these funds must be covered by taxes, because mostly these funds are needed for the defense and defense forces of ukraine. to be honest, the situation is critical, for us it remains urgent to ensure the security sector. defense, the methods we proposed, we don't have time to drag out the discussions, - said serhii marchenko, he says that the government is quite correct in its approach to raising taxes and added that the increase in village tax rates, in particular, has a fairly correct

connotation from the point of view of messages, mr. maksym, mr. oleksiy is talking about all these gray schemes or semi-gray. schemes or dark schemes that one way or another exist in the ukrainian economy, but we know that economists, professional economists, estimate the share of the shadow economy. or the economy, which is in the shadow there in 40%, and not less than 40% or 35-40%, and this is a sufficiently large percentage, and it is clear that in the current conditions , tax increases can inevitably lead to further shadowing of the economy, shadowing of salaries, deductions , well, everything else, that is, by by in some fragment, there is an increase in taxes on new cars by 15% for the first. also, probably, will lead to some shadowing or solution of these questions, why do you think

the government works like a fire brigade, why is there not this vision, a broad vision, what to do with taxes, what to do with customs, although we know that zelensky actually, when he came to the presidential post, to the presidential post, he held these numerous meetings, there he investigated the customs officers. uh, in transcarpathia, he asked what kind of cars they drive, these same these questions were and remain relevant because those who live in ukraine clearly know how customs works, how customs officers work, how customs officers live, the situation has not changed in 5 years, why do you think? i would start by saying that the situation has not changed not only in the last five years, i remember very well, for example, when we, well, let's say , in a political sense , tried for the first time what is called living in a new way, yes, after

the orange maidan in 2004, i even remember how the then presidential candidate viktor yushchenko said, don't teach the apple tree how give birth, and drive the pigs away from her, that is, this story is about the corruption tax paid by ukrainians. which are paid by ukrainian business, er, our, by the way, foreign partners, investors, er, this corruption tax could be reduced with the right political will, and also with the right political will it would be possible to search for all, so that is, those tools, levers, reserves, about which another participant is talking about. of our conversation in sufficient detail and she spoke correctly, for

this a professional team is needed, for this motivated executors are needed, and what is called political will, as i have already said, this political will is obviously absent today, there is an office of simple solutions, simple solutions to raise tariffs for... electricity by two times, then more twice, simple decisions to raise taxes, and in fact, ukrainians have learned to avoid taxes, but if, for example, they cancel this third group of fopies, that is, they will raise taxes, this will be a strong, so to speak, blow to social stability, and actually then with some such light, some consequences will not do, that is, in my opinion, it is

about a socially resonant decision that is not enough, obviously calculated in the economic sense, in the budgetary, financial sense, and which is possible, well, this assumption is hypothetical, the possibility should make an impression on our external partners who actually... give us money, and perhaps sometimes in conversations with our representatives they wonder why ukrainians pay so little for this war, just as, for example, our european partners wonder why ukrainian men are abroad of military age , here this, so to speak, image that ukraine pays more, it seems to me that it is part of this, this... event, this decision itself, which lies in the public domain.

thank you, mr. maksym, mr. oleksiy, tell me about these decisions on raising taxes or fees, how will this affect the reaction of ukrainians in ukrainian society, what will the reaction be and what might the consequences be? well, first of all, there will not be an immediate reaction, because while all these tax increases for business will be transferred to the shoulders of ordinary ukrainians, a certain period of time will pass, firstly, secondly, there is a certain habituation to price increases, in our country and in the period before the large-scale invasion. the prices were high enough, let's say for food products they were commensurate with the countries of the european union, for some groups of goods they were higher, for some they were lower, so i don't think there will be an instant reaction, there will be protests, no, it won't, but the consequences for business, i think will be serious enough, because part of the business is now in the format of simple survival,

firstly, secondly, i... i think that what mr. maksym said, i think we will see a surge of new schemes, because one of the problems that occurs in decision-making at the level of the government and at the level of the parliament is that the decision is very often of extremely low quality, where there is a low quality of management decisions, a large number of schemes automatically appear there, that is , obviously part of the business will get out of the situation in this way, but... again , i emphasize that, unfortunately, there is no discussion in the authorities about how to accumulate internal resources, let's say, all of us infuriating are the examples when so -called small construction is now taking place at the level of local self-government, roads are being paved , parks and sidewalks are being built, there is a huge

number of projects that can wait until the end of the war, and me... why, let's say, having such an effective mechanism , like the state treasury that can block certain payments, the government is actually doing nothing to settle this issue, so that some of the self-government money can be directed to the armed forces, it can be done now, after some of the funds have been taken away, but we see that certain projects definitely need to be blocked, and again, this list is extremely, extremely. is large, and we have enough serious funds, at least, to seriously strengthen the internal, internal funding by individual articles, by individual articles, because both plus and plus the question of the effectiveness of the state, the effectiveness of individual bodies, because when we see the numbers about the , that about half of

the drones are transferred to the front by volunteers, volunteer structures, well this... means that the ministry of defense needs immediate changes, radical changes, it means that someone in power is not finalizing at the level of the leadership of the government, the leadership of the ministry of defense. this is just one small example, but it's enough for me to try. thank you, mr. oleksiy, friends, i would like to remind you that we are working live on the espresso channel and i am appealing to the viewers, if you watch us live on the espresso channel, you can vote. with the help of telephone lines, we ask you today about whether are you ready for a tax increase in ukraine, yes, no, voting numbers 0800, 211 381, if you are ready for a tax increase in ukraine, no 0.800 211 382, ​​if not ready, all calls to these numbers are free,

at the end of the program we will we have the results of this voting, and we also conduct voting on youtube and in... the questions are the same, the answers are also the same, yes, no, if you have your own opinion, you can leave it under this video. let me remind you that maksym rozumny, doctor of political science, is our guest today of sciences and oleksiy koshel, doctor of historical sciences, two doctors of sciences, political experts, we are talking today about the situation in ukraine, about what the government is doing now and what volodymyr zelenskyi's team is doing, but we can't. skip one more topic, these are personnel scandals in the military leadership, because since the release of valery zaluzhny, we have been constantly seeing how these personnel scandals in the armed forces of ukraine spill out into the public sphere, i would prefer that these scandals did not exist and that we were on the air it was not discussed because

there is a war, but we do not provide publicity in this situation. personnel rotations, and in particular regarding the commander of the 80th separate amphibious assault brigade, emil ishkulov, he was removed from his post and transferred to a promotion, to the position of deputy chief of staff of the defense ministry. according to inshulov's media, inshkulov was removed from the brigade due to a dispute with the command, as if he opposed a task that was impossible to complete. in his facebook post, ishkulov thanked. to his former subordinates for the public campaign in his support, i am sincerely grateful to each of you for the crazy support you have shown, it is extremely powerful and valuable, as yuriy butusov wrote, only coordinated. the team is capable of such actions, and the fact that this story became public, explained the spokesman of the ministry

of defense of ukraine, dmytro lazutki, in an interview with nv, he said that the military leadership does not blindly defend its position, and also listens to the decisions that prove that the life of a soldier is valuable for the armed forces of ukraine, another person who actively comments on the actions of the military leadership and who... has no relation to the armed forces of ukraine, is a national mp of ukraine mariyana bezugla, commenting on the transfer of ishkulov, accused the head of the armed forces oleksandr syrskyi of lying, conjunctural personnel decisions and neglecting the interests of defense, this is another signal to leaders in the military that it is easier to lie than to tell the uncomfortable truth that you have no merit and are effective management will not protect against of the military leadership, gentlemen, we actually see how a discussion unfolds in the information field of ukraine, who has

the right, who should be at the head of the armed forces, who should not should be at the head of the armed forces, the people's deputy during the war says that the head of the armed forces of brescia, the previous previous head of the armed forces of the armed forces , did not suit marianna at all. why, in the conditions of war, are we witnessing these personnel breakdowns by people who have nothing to do with the ukrainian army, and why is it all spilling out into the public sphere, mr. oleksiy, in my opinion , maryana bezuglov should be considered separately, and all the others separately cases, because the question of maryana bezuglai, actually, i am convinced that it should occupy her. security service of ukraine, malyuk's department must necessarily open proceedings, well, at least there were grounds based on the published facts of losses, on the published

facts of the number of military units, and there, i think, more than one article has already been collected. why the security service of ukraine does not react is a completely different story, obviously, the structure is also too politicized, which is exactly why there is no reaction. for all others. this is a normal practice, we cannot have a perfect army, where 100% of the military leadership will be deeply competent, will make fair decisions and not will be wrong, it doesn't happen that way, because the army is actually a state within a state, it is a parallel state that has all its units, starting from duplicating civilian units and ending with everything else, so it's quite... natural that our army has a lot of why was it created simply from wheels, simply extremely quickly, and we may like it or not, but

we have exactly such a structure of the armed forces today, both with its pluses and minuses, so it is quite natural that such facts take place, well, i think which is very good that we moved away from format, when there is any criticism of the military command, and especially the civilian... command there, any trickle to the address of the banks, it was all perceived as a game to help the enemy, whether you criticize the president or criticize the military, you are all playing on the side russians, no, we see that adequate motivated criticism allows us to make certain decisions and allows us to preserve the lives and health of our soldiers, so this is absolutely normal practice, and we should not look at it as something phenomenal, that this information... will be maximal spread by the enemy, they will carry out special operations, of course, of course, but these are also our big problems, that we do not

put order in our information field, i mean telegram, various social groups, social networks, and the enemy is actively waging an information war , starting with the issue of conscription, mobilization and ending there. many other things, that is, it is a completely different story, mr. maxim, can these discussions about the army, about who leads rightly, who leads wrongly, be held with a high level of trust ukrainians to the armed forces, i.e. the armed forces is an institution that ukrainians trust the most, i.e. undisputed trust during the war, and it is clear that in this situation, well, immediately there are some... or political jealousy regarding the rating there, as it were, rating of trust in valery zaluzhnyi, or the current,

current trust there in oleksandr. mr. syrsky, is there a political component here regarding the perspective of the political perspective of certain persons and regarding trust in the army as such? i would say here that uh, maybe on the level of personalities, er, it is hardly possible to talk about such and such a political basis, er, since... well, figures comparable to valery zaluzhny, our, so to speak, military environment in terms of political resonance, trust, recognition, other there is no such figure, so there is a need, so to speak, to discredit someone, to lower someone's rating for a political purpose, i honestly do not see it, but there is... a more

general problem, in my opinion, is a problem of ratio, so to speak , military and politicians, and we have seen it before on on a personalized level, when they talked about the discussions between president zelenskyi and chief zaluzhny there, when there were leaks of information that the president's office demanded one thing. and the general staff agrees otherwise, but today, it seems to me, this problem has become much deeper, it has become so, i would say, even social, that is , the army, the ukrainian army has become an independent institution rather, and as you rightly noted, authoritative, legitimate. that is why

other political institutions treat him with a certain wariness, with a certain jealousy, we often come across some such evidence of some conflicts, i don't know with law enforcement officers, military with law enforcement officers, well, and so on and so on, that is, there is this problem, but to say that these scandals around ... personnel decisions and so on, they are directly, so to speak, connected with it, so far there are no grounds, in my opinion, here we rather have a situation of this internal contradiction, the army is a centralized, rather closed structure , it must remain so, otherwise an army that would be, so to speak, under its

enlarged ... claw and which does not have and cannot make decisions without the participation of society, i mean the general staff, the command and so on, such an army is unlikely to be effective, because the war - these are her harsh, unpopular decisions, the commanders actually send people to death, and that says it all, but at the same time, being such a closed and super-centralized structure, the army must naturally have... this feedback mechanism, that is, the problems that it has, and we understand that these there are problems, they must have channels of their own, so to speak, solution, and this solution is not, inseparable from the fact that they become known, obviously there are channels, so to speak, vertical, within the army structure, but already it is obvious that they are insufficient, and

those moments when the public is included in the... processes, they happen quite a lot, so to speak, this intervention is incompetent there, people have not figured it out, warlords, or who we have there, so to speak, military commentators, take someone's side, are biased, but in in any case, such a feedback channel , i believe, at the moment and in this situation is useful for the army, thank you, mr. maksym, mr. oleksiy, well... since we are talking about possible political moments, political aspects, about trust, mistrust, can the army as an environment, an institution, can it be in some near future, after the end of the war, of course, be the basis of a new political class in ukraine, people who

will come to power and these new ... faces that were expected in the 19th year.