mr. pavle, what dilemma did biden talk about? well, biden is called a dilemma, we will call you, mr. serhiy, tsivilka. now putin is not raising the stakes and is trying to continue to work and eliminate the consequences of this operation by conventional means. whether he can do it, the big question is how much it will take. resources, their relocation, their refocusing, well, that is, the story is quite complicated, but there is another reality, putin is raising the stakes, and he can raise the stakes not only by military means, he can do so on his own; of the special services, but then the question arises, why can’t the west, in response to

putin’s raising of the stakes, also raise the stakes, well, for example, with the supply of new weapons, permits to strike with western weapons no longer at short distances, and not under restrictions, but with without restrictions, or with minimal ones, with raising the stakes in the sense of sanctions, tightening the nuts on existing sanctions, sanctions on their circumvention, well, that is, in fact, or putin remains where he is, but then he looks strange, not only weak, but also strange, or he raises the stakes, but then whoever prevents the west from also raising the stakes has its own complicated internal debate about red lines, it's almost schizophrenic like that. they have red lines,

but if putin raises them, then the west will say, well , we raise them, that’s in response, so the dilemma is actually really difficult for putin, here biden is absolutely right, i agree with him 101%, mr. pavle, and what does the current stage mean for putin, i.e., on the contrary, he will raise the rates, we know that he still has this highest rate, and by the way, in doctor of national security and it is written when they can use their nuclear suitcase or nuclear stick there, he leaves such, such a right to himself, does he understand that the use of the last argument can simply lead to the destruction of the entire military and political leadership of russia and, even before they reach for that stick. first, against used. nuclear

weapons, not only the west, for example, the chinese, because open this pandora's box, and then everyone will have nuclear weapons in 5 years and around the chinese in the first place, why it is absolutely incomprehensible to them, the second point, well, from the point of view of the russian constitution and amendments, well, we now occupy part of the russian territory, they called these regions part of russia, well, what then? does not use nuclear weapons, and the question arises, and if then he does not use lead time, why should he use it, and what is the difference between one russian territory in the marismistic sense of the russian constitution, and actually another, and if he goes to raise rates, then he shows that he has no other means, and this means that... both the regime and the russian

structures, they are really weak, and they have nothing left but nuclear weapons, and the last one, if the pumping begins seriously, not in words , and the issue of nuclear weapons is serious, then of course the russian regime will receive an answer, it will not simply become a pariah, that is , it is one thing not to lend a hand, and another thing, as they say, we cannot live on this ball once. that is, the stakes will be raised to the maximum, and here i think that is realistic for putin the threat of unifying the interests of the west and non- west, and he certainly cannot resist this. the prime minister of poland donald tusk, mr. pavle, commenting on the kurdish operation of the armed forces of ukraine, stated that poland supports ukraine in the war, which for it is of a defensive nature. let's listen to what

mr. tusk said. ukraine's actions are defensive. what russian troops and russian aviation are doing with the territory. ukraine has signs of genocide and crimes against humanity, and ukraine has every right to wage war in such a way that in order to paralyze russia in its aggressive intentions as effectively as possible. mr. pavle, you and i have repeatedly talked on our broadcasts about the fact that if our western partners wanted the defeat of russia, they would have given it to ukraine. all the necessary means would allow to strike on the territory of the russian federation, but in the current situation, how do you think the development of events is seen by the western partners after what happened in kurshchyna? they want to put putin in his place, they finally

understood that playing epistemology, as the west did, unfortunately, since the 14th year it is history passed, and what... many did not understand, not only the real nature, but the real intentions of the russian regime, now they regretted it, although they will not say it publicly, what donald says is certainly cool, the question is only in because many in the west do not say this and do not say so, and the west of course wants the defeat of russia, but a controlled defeat, one thing is massive escalation and giving... everything we need and quickly, and by the way, it is not so simple from the point of view of technology, logistics, military affairs, well, but theoretically maybe for now the west, even with the support of the kurdish operation, adheres to the logic of a controlled war, and nothing

has changed in this, but what pleases me is that the west still understood that the defeat of ukraine is the defeat of the west. here, at least, we have a real understanding and real progress in this matter, but for now, further on. trump, meanwhile, accused biden of the russian federation's invasion of ukraine, the republican presidential candidate of the united states of america said in an interview with billionaire elon musk that russia's invasion of ukraine happened because of joe biden's politics. he detailed that... biden started talking about ukraine's membership in nato, and they said that this provoked the russian federation. what do you think of this vision of what has happened in ukraine since the 22nd year. well, in fact, it is perfectly

clear to everyone that no matter how much they say, there is still no political decision on nato, and there is no consensus within nato. no matter how much they say, and... he has been talking for quite a long time, actually since 2008, the question is how they say and what they say, of course, but musk is not stupid, he does business in the world, reads geopolitics, so talks about nato and blaming these talks, well, this is pure nonsense, i actually have a lot of discussions with various representatives who are engaged in... positions, well , not the same as musk, but close, and after a long conversation, they actually come to the point that they contradict themselves, and the second story, well, in my opinion, it is the easiest, who did not understand that all that is happening is the desire to destroy

ukraine as such in nato, without nato, whatever, my point is, i always try... again, it's on my fingers to explain to those who do not want to believe it yet that today's russian regime, it has not yet invented its ideology, which functions without ukraine as a part, and that it sees us either as russia or anti-russia, but somehow wrong, this it is the nature of the russian regime, and of course, musk is more interested in trump. i would have explained it differently to mask, well, but mask is not interviewing me yet, i think i will wait. musk wants to interview kamale haris, do you think it will happen, well we are watching it as according to the series, because it is clear that now

the elections in the united states of america will begin to unfold even more, starting on september 10, when there will be a debate between trump and... harris, who do you think has a better chance of becoming the president of the united states now america? first of all, if i were kamala, i would go to the interview, i'm not there... i read the last number, but i watched the views of the interview with trump, there are almost a billion, well, cool actually, from the point of view of the states, and not states, and then everything was cut on tiktok, and not only on tiktok, so the story is good, of course kamala should prepare, but she is still preparing, and it is better to show em some things in such a live conversation with musk. i think that would be a cool story, it's up to the team to decide, hais and directly

we have 30 seconds left on the air, sorry, yes, and as for the election, i think it's 50/50 right now, a lot will depend on the debate and from whether hais will gain drive and whether she can answer difficult questions, especially regarding the border and the economy? if will succeed, i think she has a good chance. thank you, mr. pavle, for the conversation, this was pavlo klinkin, diplomat, minister of foreign affairs of ukraine in 2014-19. friends, do not switch, it will be more interesting. there are discounts until independence day on estezefin 25% in pharmacies psylansky, bam and oskad. when you sleep on an uneven surface, the spine takes the wrong position. after all, you cannot feel energetic in the morning and productive in the afternoon. and with the matryk topper, you

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watch this week's judicial control with tatyana shustrova in the program. release princes why did the ex-chairman of the supreme court lose his position for renting an apartment? release the prince. judges of the cassation administrative court. but who in the vrp helped the prince not to answer for a multi-million dollar bribe? the record holder simply for the first closure of cases. on thursday, august 15, at 5:45 p.m., watch the judicial control program with tatyana shustrova on the espresso tv channel. vasyl zima's big broadcast. two hours of airtime, two hours of your time. two hours to learn about the war and how the world lives. two hours to be aware of economic. and sports news, two hours in the company of favorite presenters, presenters

who have become like-minded to many, as well as distinguished guests of the studio, the events of the day in two hours, vasyl zima's big broadcast, a project for intelligent and caring people, in the evening at espresso. greetings, friends, live on the espresso tv channel, the second part of the verdict program, my name is serhii rudenko, throughout the program, which will last 45 minutes, we will talk about the following. the kursk slap to putin, the authority of the kremlin dictator, was greatly shaken by the unexpected operation of the armed forces, which and how can actually lead to a collapse putin's regime. corruption scandals during the war. almost every day, law enforcement officers report

on the exposure of officials for bribes and illegal enrichment, which is still an insider. stand before the authorities today. spiritual independence from russia. next week , the verkhovna rada is to consider a bill on banning the activities of the russian church in ukraine. will zelenskyi be able to facilitate the adoption? friends, we work live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms. for those who are watching us live right now, be there please subscribe to our pages on... platforms and take part in our survey, today we ask you the following: does the servant of the people party support the banning of the russian orthodox church in ukraine? yes, no, if you are on youtube , vote either yes or no, write your comment, if you have a different opinion about this, if you are watching us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote on the relevant numbers 0800 211

381, if yes, if no - 0800 211 382. i want to introduce the guests. of our studio today, this is volodymyr fesenko, a political scientist, chairman of the board of the center of applied political research penta, mr. volodymyr, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today, good evening, i congratulate you, and oleksiy koshel, doctor of historical sciences, political scientist, chairman of the committee of voters of ukraine, mr. oleksiy, i congratulate you, thank you for joining the broadcast. good evening. so, gentlemen, let's start our conversation with an event that has been going on for more than 10 days. well , for almost 10 days, the world media, ukrainian media, and the community in social networks, politicians, and world politicians have been commenting on this course breakthrough of the armed forces of ukraine, and what will be the consequence of this course breakthrough, zelenskyi said that kursk is a disaster for putin, for putin's russia,

how and what it can actually lead to. to the collapse of the putin regime, or only kurshchyna, or is this the first black swan for the putin regime, mr. oleksiy, please, you know, if you analyze the individual slogans, enthusiasm, individual headlines of the last week, then i get the impression that i am i have already seen and read everything somewhere, namely for about a year therefore, during prigozhin's uprising, which... at first they even called it a revolution, well , in fact, there were reasons to talk even about the beginning of revolutionary events, but they also talked about the collapse of the putin regime, about the split of russia, so i see that now a new wave has started, i i think that it would be best for us to be realistic now, to be strict pragmatists so that we can not fall into euphoria, but clearly plan the possible

consequences, well, let's look objectively, the results of sociology show that putin's regime... press strong enough today, i don’t want to overestimate there, but today there is no infiltration of the opposition, the opposition is decapitated, and it is unlikely that the new leaders who are now, the leaders of the opposition who are currently abroad, there from a quiet, calm germany, they will be able to influence there the political process in russia, in the same way there are no influential russian media, independent media, no... influential leaders of local self-government and many other things, that is, in my opinion, it is now premature to talk about what we will be able to do shake up russia, we can lead to the opposition to putin, we can lead there to the format of a palace coup, anything else, let's see, there are really no prospects for this, but, but what you say about

the black swan, there is an element of chance, but you have to look honestly, the probability of this remains... extremely, extremely low, that is, to sum up, the kurdish operation, or the kursk special operation, is an extremely great success of the ukrainian military, which, i am convinced, will be studied in all textbooks in decades military affairs the military sets clear tasks for itself, and we can only guess about them now, even if we guess, we will not talk about it publicly, that is, various scenarios are possible, and these scenarios are very complex and... unpleasant for russia, but talk about tectonic dry, there is about forcing putin to negotiate, about the revolutionary events in russia, well, i'm sorry, it's premature. thank you, mr. oleksiy, mr. volodymyr, what will be the political consequences for putin, because if within the russian federation, as mr. oleksiy says, no

you can hope for a revolution or a rebellion or there, for some certain actions of her against the leader of russia himself, then it is obvious, it is obvious that what is happening in kurshchyna is a loud slap to putin on the world stage, that is, he... learned a rather serious lesson, and the whole the world saw that putin is actually a person who is not able to keep the situation in russia under control, and even more so, he is not able to continue this image of the second army of the world, which is strong and unyielding, no, well, actually about the second army of the world no one in particular for a long time. does not say, another thing is that, unfortunately, over the last year and a half of the war, well somewhere, well , a year for sure, but over the last year of the war, it will be more precise, among the russian elites, i am not talking

about ordinary russians and even among some of the western elites, there was a feeling that putin again invincible, that the war will be long, and putin will win it, and if the russian elites wavered... in the 22nd year there were problems at the beginning of the 23rd year, by the way, i do not agree with the assessment that someone there saw in the beautification of the revolutionary , i don't know who there saw in the beautification of a revolutionary, he was rather a counter-revolutionary, and he is more like that, you know, a character in the style of the civil war, such a sexual commander who tries to fight there against one of the leaders, he never spoke against putin. that is why there was no talk of any revolution at all, now also that the ukrainian authorities are talking about the beginning of a revolution in russia, no, i did not see a single

word, in general very cautious assessments, very restrained assessments, even about the fact that our the troops, it is our troops who are fighting now in kurshchyna, only the last two began to speak days, but the assessments are very restrained, it is very correct, a statement about a catastrophe, well, it is rather about a local one. disaster and disaster in the military dimension, it is important for us that there was an effect that putin is not so invincible, we should not bow down to the fact that russia is big, has endless resources, it is impossible to win, non-standard actions are needed, actions are needed that one way or another can testify to the fact that it is possible to put pressure on russia, it is possible to fight on russian territory, it is possible to overcome various... red lines that were not even drawn by russia itself, but rather red lines that arose in the heads of some western politicians, this is important, and for us,

of course, in this military operation , political goals are also important, here is the first, the first political effect - the fact that we can conduct successful military operations on russian territory, this became an absolute surprise for... russians, especially for the residents of the border regions, and certainly, at the very least, it caused an increase in anxiety in russia and uncertainty that it would be possible to win this war, because they had already thought almost everything, let's wait a little longer, we will win the war and now the situation is completely different, so let the tactical temporary effect, it has been achieved, then you need to think about how to transfer it to another plane, the second is important. effect, our partners recognized that we have the full right, publicly, officially recognized that we have the full right to protect our interests, conduct our defense on

the territory of the enemy, there was nothing like this before, before, i know this from various sources, we unofficially , informally ordered, not even just asked, ordered not to take a single step into russian territory, therefore when there were... incidents in the belgorod region, they were russian volunteers, but not the ukrainian armed forces, and now we have proved that we have every right to defend ourselves, in particular in this way on russian territory, and our partners have recognized it, that's the truth there remains a question, now i think it is the main one in order for the current operation in the kursk region to be more effective, in order to push putin to real negotiations, and this is definitely not from... it will happen naturally and quickly, you need to use western weapons, long-range weapons on russian territory, it is necessary to remove at least partially the

existing restrictions. success can only be guaranteed by non-standard actions and actions on russian territory, and the breakthrough into kurshchyna proved this. therefore, in this case, a lot depends on the further actions of our western partners, and i think at the moment they are considering what to do next, how to proceed, in this sense, caution, unfortunately, is still there, but even the message that that they are assessing the situation and considering the possibility. remove at least part of the restrictions on using your long-range weapons, it's important, so the political effects are, i think it's very important for the ukrainians, after almost nine months, when we were just retreating, now we see that our troops are advancing, well, it's like, you know, an important momentum of positivity for the whole of society to

restore faith in our... ability that we persevere in this war, that we don't lose this war, that's very, very important, because that's why i think the political effects of of this military operation are even greater at the present moment than military effects, the head of diplomacy of the european union, josep borel , during a conversation with the minister of foreign affairs of ukraine, dmytro koleba, said that the eu fully supports the ukrainian struggle. people, and in this way he commented on the events in kurshchyna, borel wrote on the x social network, discussed with dmytro kuleba the latest events on the front and the kurdish offensive, i confirmed the full support of the european union for the struggle of the ukrainian people, putin failed to break ukraine's resistance to his unjustified invasion, and now he is forced to retreat deep into the territory of russia. mr. oleksiy, why do our western partners not want to say:

more sharply, that in principle, this special operation in the kurdish language indicates that the russian-ukrainian war should probably be put on its toes, putin must be defeated, and russia must be defeated, because they all support ukraine, but here is a clear articulation of what we see that putin will lose in this particular situation, and putin must answer for it. well, the western rhetoric of the last week is extraordinary favorable for us, this is direct support from borel, from the german foreign ministry, from the spokesmen of the white house and many others. this is an extremely big plus, but not only rhetoric is important to us, but principled decisions are important to us. the first decision, which mr. volodymyr spoke about, is the permission to strike with western weapons on the territory of russia, i mean, long-range weapons that can really break, can

have a sufficiently serious course of war, and the second question, a fundamental one, which was voiced by volodymyr zelenskyi, i believe that this is it such rhetoric should be present in the daily format, it is a direct demand from the west to close the ukrainian sky from the polish air defense, romanian, slovak air defense there, well, in fact, we also received a response from washington that this has a solution that has a consensus . to be accepted by all nato member countries, but again the situation is possible, the situation can be overcome, because a number of countries are direct supporters of ukraine. now regarding the sentiments in the european union, of course, well, let's look only in the language of numbers, that's what poland says about the fact that it will buy 96 american apache helicopters for the amount of 10 billion, well

, it is about helicopters, it is about these. a complex of enterprises for the production of spare parts, service, logistics, and everything else. 10 billion us dollars, this is the price that poland pays now only once for the supply of russian helicopters, plus a bunch, they buy f-16s, plus they buy a huge amount of weapons there, europe pays a huge price for a possible attack from russia. europe does not want this war, european business does not. this war, and that's why even now, in the 11th year of the war, european politicians are dominated by such a very easy compromise opinion that the war can be resolved in a diplomatic format, you can get guarantees that russia will not attack, or come on, let's wait, literally a decade will pass and russia will change, that is, physiologically, putin will not may be eternal, he is now over 70, in

10-15 years, he will be a person who is unlikely to be able to open the door on his own, well , obviously, these are the attitudes, these are the attitudes, everyone is afraid of getting involved in a long-term war. thank you, mr. oleksiy, sir vladimir, he commented for the first time on the situation in kurshchyna and said that it creates a real dilemma for putin, we are in direct constant contact with the ukrainians, that's all i'm going to say about this while it's all in an active phase, which is now putin's dilemma, mr. volodymyr, unfortunately, unfortunately, volodymyr fesenko seems to be leaving.