exit, thank you for being with us, it was a great air, i say goodbye to you until tomorrow, just a few moments the verdict program, we will watch together, good evening, we are from ukraine, today in the verdict program with serhiy rudenko, controlled territories. kurshchyna: military commanders are being introduced in the regions of russia liberated from the putin regime. what is the status of the ukrainian defense forces there? and why did russia announce a counterterrorist operation. there are no red lines. the world is convinced that putin is bluffing when he threatens to escalate in response to ukrainian counterattacks. how long

will the countries of the west restrain themselves in granting freedom of action to ukraine? the ukrainian trace of gas pipeline undermining in the baltic sea. germany has issued an arrest warrant for a suspected ukrainian diver. what threatens official kyiv with accusations of complicity in damaging the northern streams. glory to ukraine, this is the verdict program, my name is serhiy ordenko, i congratulate everyone and wish everyone good health. over the next hour, we will talk about what is happening in ukraine and beyond, and in particular we will talk about the kursk special operation of the armed forces of ukraine, the reaction of the world, and of course, about how american journalists are now trying to blame or frame. to question

the authority of the military and the armed forces of ukraine and to accuse our special forces who allegedly took part in airdropping the north stream gas pipeline, and today the american press is writing about it, we will talk about it all in the next hour. however, before starting our conversation, i suggest watching a video of how ukrainian soldiers repelled the guards. russian assault on kharkiv oblast soldiers of the 13th brigade of the charter national guard managed to destroy four armed tanks, another one was damaged, in addition, the defenders neutralized four dozen invaders. let's watch this enchanting video.

glory to the defense forces of ukraine and death to the russian occupiers. friends, throughout our broadcast we are conducting a survey, today we are asking you about whether the exchange rate operation will change the world's attitude towards putin. yes, no, na... it's quite simple, either yes

or no, if you have your own personal opinion, please write in the comments below video, if you watch us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote on the numbers 0800 211 381, if you think that the world's attitude to the way to putin will change after the course operation and not 0800 211 382, ​​all calls to these numbers are free of charge, vote, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote, today... we have as a guest volodymyr ogrysko, diplomat, politician, minister of foreign affairs of ukraine in 2007-9, head of the russian research center, mr. volodymyr, i congratulate you , thank you that you are with us today thank you, mr. serhiy, for the invitation, i am always glad. let 's try to answer the question, in the format of a blitz survey, will the attitude of the world to putin change after the kurdish operation? it will obviously change and is already changing, i think that we are witnessing that finally... the ice

is breaking, and we are getting closer and closer to the situation when finally in the heads of our western partners all the red lines are themselves. they drew for themselves, they will erase, well , including the red lines that i drew putin made the announcement because, well, considering what is happening now in the kursk region, according to their logic, there is an attack on their territory, on the integrity of the russian territory, and they announced that suddenly this will happen, then they have nuclear weapons, and they can apply it, but you know, i agree with you, mr. sergey, but it seems to me that the main red lines for us are not... putin's, because he bluffs, he lies, he pretends to be true, but in fact the main red lines lines in the minds of our western partners who were, and still are, subject to things, succumbing to this nuclear blackmail of moscow, and are still afraid, well, come on,

let's move around, but every day on these russian first, second, there 25 tv channels, they rage in the literal sense of the word. it’s a mess, and it’s the deputies of this so-called state duma, some pseudo-analysts and so on, and what they say, we wipe the earth, everything starts from warsaw to washington, and they say it all the time, and they say it all the time, what do western analytical centers, they collect it all, they analyze it all and issue it information on the mountain, on the mountain they think, well , maybe they are really crazy, or maybe... and and and and not crazy, but maybe he will press this button, that's why there are just, you know, just such restraining elements in the position , well , god forbid, now it seems, after the kurdish

operation, i think that this option, god forbid , gradually, gradually begins to disappear, and the last thing that appeared now, i was going to you ... and read this information , that the americans are really thinking about giving us long-range missiles with a range of 320 km, the question only in how to use them, because it is necessary that both old soviet aircraft and new ones, or rather these f-16s, although they are not new, but that they have the technical ability to take them on board and use them. if you analyze the events in kurshchyna, which was once a part of ukraine, but some of these towns and villages, from the judges there, they were, these villages and towns were transferred to the russian federation at one time, how

can you characterize or determine the status of ukrainians in this territory, and how can the status of these be determined? regions of from the point of view of the russian-ukrainian war, that is, according to international law, who are we on this territory? now, mr. sergey, we, we exercise effective control over this territory, that is, we do not say that we annexed it, that we occupied it, we exercise this control over what is happening in this territory, well, you see, today it appeared the message that the first appeared, well , so to speak, well... a formal yes structure, which is called the military commandant's office, why did they appear, well, so that this the territory was not a walking field, so that there were clear rules of behavior, life, and so on and so on, please, the first element of this effective control is already there, but now, well

, god forbid , our deputies will return from the cloudy, hidden oceans, and they will gather finally , they have to adopt a law, which president zelenskyi has announced. well, to put just these dots of hope, today things, the head of the armed forces of ukraine, oleksandr syrskyi, just reported to president zelenskyi today about the creation of this of the first military command in the kursk region of the russian federation. let's listen to what the head said. on the territory of the khus region , the search and destruction of the enemy in the settlement of suja and three other settlements was completed for... maintaining law and order, providing for the priority needs of the population in the controlled territories, a military command post was created, its head was appointed, major general moskalyov was appointed, major general

moskalev is, in my opinion, wonderful, who is the first military commandant in kursk region, it's true, it's true, it may be a little stupid, but i think he should lift us up just the same. many in ukraine and not only the military, but also us civilians, so i think that everything is going right, but mr. volodymyr, putin himself and russian. they announced a counter-terrorist operation there, who how, how they always conduct it, it was in chechnya at one time and in dagestan, when there were some problems with local residents, the fact that the russian federation is trying to avoid the word war and not to use this word and not to declare that they are waging war against ukraine, they want to avoid complete isolation and then legal isolation. the status of the country that will be forced to pay reparations, why

do they say that this is a counter-terrorist operation, you are absolutely right, mr. sergey, because if a country declares war, and if it conducts aggressive offensive actions, then it itself recognizes itself as an aggressor, and this entails very serious international legal consequences, that is why putin does not want to talk about the fact that this is a war, uh, because the consequences after the defeat of russia, they will be for russia, well, they will be like that in any case, but at least now you can fool your own national population, and also try to spread this idea somewhere and to the outside, that they say this is not a war, but this is a struggle with ukrainian nazis , with the need for denigration there and so on and so forth, all this absolute nonsense that he... puts on the mountain, the same now and here, because if he declares, declares war, then these are

all the necessary measures at once , which must be carried out within the country, it is automatic mobilization, and it does not occur to him now, because first of all, very few people can be mobilized, look, there are no people in russia today. and which can be mobilized for production, the unemployment rate is now the lowest for many, many years, around 2%, that is, there are not enough people even to cover the needs of the economy, and if we still raise a wave and mobilize now, then the economy, which it is already smelling of incense, it will simply stop, because if you take some more from there, there will be 500-600 thousands... or a million, so then there will be no

one to physically make the same weapons that are needed for the front, so he has a tsutsuang, if you look at the events taking place in the kursk region from the point of view of putin and from the point of view of his classmates in this war, can it be said that they are losing control over the situation in russia, because from the moment... when ukrainian troops entered the territory of the kursk region and until now there is panic there, it is not clear what and how the center or something may or may not influence there to those decisions, people cannot, let's say, get help from their authorities, that putin was not ready in principle for the fact that the war would return to the same place from where it came to the ukrainian territory, well, it's obvious, he , remember you see, he put forward such a thesis that he said that we will, if we will, well, it was before,

go to negotiations with ukraine, taking into account the realities on the ground, that is, he clearly assumed that the realities would be such that he seized part of the ukrainian territory , these realities are forever, but now realities on earth at all others, he was certainly not ready for this, and even in his wildest dreams he could not have dreamed that ukrainian troops would capture a part of russian. so i think it's a huge surprise, but you know, relatively, relative to whether he's in control, i think he is, and there's no sign that now, well, the system is going to fall apart, unfortunately , uh, yeah, it's very a serious earthquake for putin, these are very unpleasant things, but, well, to say that it is ... the shock that was, say, after prigozhin took a course for moscow,

and when putin was really afraid and ran away somewhere for a certain period of time, now i have this feeling, well, no less, that people are suffering there in kurshchyna or belohorodshchyna, well, it has absolutely no meaning for them , this is something that is not taken into account at all, so far the situation is such that... although he is nervous, but the control over what is happening, well, in russia as a whole, definitely keeps him. but he worries whether his potential internal enemies will take advantage of this new situation, because they feel that if the ukrainian offensive further, well, the regime will simply collapse by itself, that is, it will not hold out, because you see, behind this border line there is actually

a void, that is, if our troops were to advance there with a number of 100,000... military personnel, then i think that their would stop even not in moscow, but outside moscow, because there really is no such thing as crazy defense and so on and so on, well, unfortunately, we do not have such opportunities, it is theoretically very easy, but practically it is very difficult, because such a number of troops foresees huge logistical problems that need to be solved, and solving them is also very difficult, but uh... politically, putin is now definitely in the stage of such a knockdown, not a knockout, but a knockdown for sure, uh, and here he thinks, well, how to bring the situation back to some kind of normal level, he thinks that he will go further in the donetsk direction, i think that

in this way he will give a counterargument, well , you see, well, here we have something going on... some unpleasant little things, but i still make my way further to pokrovsk, all the same i want to completely occupy donetsk region and so on , that is, there will be a balancing act somewhere, but i think that for the inner circle of his entourage, these are all quite, quite serious signals, and i think that they are beginning to think the same way, adviser to the president of ukraine mykhailo podalyak in in an interview with the russian positional publication , meduza stated: that ukraine does not set itself the goal of creating occupation administrations on the territory of the kurt region, well, we actually talked about this, that there are military commanderies that are starting to be created on this territory. what does he say? podolyak: this is a large operation to destroy military facilities throughout the territory of the kurt region, we do not set ourselves the goal that russia sets for itself when it enters the territory, carries out occupation actions,

sleeps the occupation administration, ukraine enters to destroy military facilities objects and does not intend to establish. some occupation administrations, well, this is the reaction of the ukrainian authorities to and, as i understand it, the plans are imminent, that is, to destroy all this infrastructure, which once shelled or struck at in sumy oblast, in chernihiv oblast, in poltava oblast, in kurt oblast, this all happened. the most interesting thing, of course, is the world's reaction to what is happening in kurtshchyna, the president of the united states of america, commenting on the operation of the armed forces... in the korsh region, said that this creates a real dilemma for putin, we are in direct, constant contact with ukrainians, this all i'm going to say about this while it's all in the active phase, joseph biden said, here's biden saying that panel vladimir, which is real a dilemma for putin, and what is this dilemma? well

, of course, i can't get into the head of president biden, but if you think logically, then the dilemma... it seems to me that it lies on the surface, that is, and it consists in the fact that there are two options for getting out of this situation: or understand what's next it will be even worse to try to withdraw, to return to its territory, and then the situation will be, well, at least more or less acceptable for putin, because he is preserving himself, or to go this way... on the path of ultimate adventurism and move deep into ukraine, try to achieve his goals and do not understand, that this path will lead to the collapse of the putin regime. therefore, the alternative here is very simple: either, or, or to understand and go back,

inventing some, you know, propagandist explanations, why this is happening, well, what... they destroyed the spirit of ukrainian nazism, for example, well, you can disperse such a thesis , did they really prove there that russian weapons are beautiful, well, the general population will believe in anything, if two weeks, i was simply told by people who are seriously engaged in this, that two weeks of intensive processing of some group of people, they begin to believe in that, what they are told, that's all, well, maybe calling billions for... putin can't do it in these two or three weeks, he can stay, so to speak, at least, well, in such a half-dead, half-alive state. in the form of and try to agree something with someone, well, or lose, because if, excuse me, but from the point of view of military logic, if we receive

, god forbid, and these technical issues are resolved for 320 km missiles, then we have nothing to do in kurshchyna , we have nothing to do there, that is, the things that our soldiers are trying to do now there, you can do everything by completely different means, and then. then this security belt or sanitary zone, which he dreamed of, will be 320 km from the ukrainian border, this is what will bring russia to its knees. mr. volodymyr, you are talking about the fact that this is not yet a catastrophic collapse for the putin regime, but what elements are missing for this collapse to come to russia? in my opinion, before the kurdish operation, one should think about the crimean operation, and then it is real. will be those ticks, which actually in the final account will already converge on the neck of putin's regime,

if our group remains in kurshchyna or develops further, we still get additional opportunities to strike deep into the territory of russia, on the other hand, the southern flank, well then, even if the enemy still arrives. there and it will take another 10-20 km in donetsk region, it will be a disaster, that's how we started talking about these red lines, about the fact that these red lines no longer exist, but as of today, ben hodges in an interview dochveli said that this particular offensive kursk region showed that the notorious lines of the russian dictator putin do not exist, let's listen. what the general said i believe that ukrainians need freedom of action. my criticism of the biden administration was that it pursued

bad policies that hindered ukraine's ability to defend itself. so i'm glad that now kyiv was not pulled. this also applies to risks of escalation. you know, the notion that putin will allegedly use nuclear weapons. the worst thing he has done so far is to fire at another ukrainian supermarket. so we held back for too long himself. well, ben hodges said very correctly, this opinion was also articulated, but still, if there are no red lines left on the side of the russian federation, and on the side of the west they remain these red lines of our western partners, then in what way these red lines of our we can overcome our western partners, what other arguments are lacking for our westerners. partners in order to tear down these red lines and say: listen, we need to finish with putin, and it can be seen that, in principle, this is an achievable goal, and

not just, let's say, an opportunity or an attempt at such and such a goal. i watched this interview in its entirety, well, benhodges is really a great friend of ukraine and a person who looks at the situation soberly, you see, an american general who criticizes the american administration. for her, indecisiveness, for the fact that she is afraid of her own shadow and so on, but you know, on the other hand, well, we can't even imagine the details of all the technicalities, how difficult it is to do those things so that they are effective, well, another american ex-military said that it was so that ukraine could prevail completely. this russia in the air force needs 400 f16s, but realistically today we can service a few dozen of these planes, the question is whether we

need 400 planes today, which simply, as he rightly says, is simply a target for a russian attack and then they will be destroyed, that is, that's all a very complex technology, it is a lot of mathematics, of course, and calculating it is actually not an easy thing to understand. where, what and how is possible, therefore, criticizing the administration, of course, we want it faster, but perhaps there are certain moments that, well, objectively suggest that it is necessary to hurry slowly, how long it will take, that is the question, but for some reason it seems to me that if the politicians in the united states of america remain, well, in this current paradigm. even despite the results of the elections in november, this flywheel has already started, and it is already moving gradually, gaining speed, and we will get there.

to the fact that we will receive permission for these long-range missiles, well, not long-range, but at least 300-500 km, and then it will be the game changer, as it is now fashionable to say, in the war, when these factors, which are reduced to a heap, will make victory almost illusory for putin, and he will understand that the further he will go in this aggression, the worse it will be for him, and what the end of this war can be. for putin, well, the best is gaga, and the worst is that his own entourage will clean it up, and it could happen in the next few years there, and we're not going to, no, i think it's about if, if, if, if we will have everything we need, then it is not years, it is months, that is , there will not be these long years, as some of our political experts predict, they say that we

entering these decades of war, there... or is the demographic several decades? well, at the same time, there are experts who need to ask some kind of, you know, ideas so that, well, they listen, but what will happen in 10 years? i think that in russia, if you analyze its internal economic situation, there are simply no 10 years physically. you and i have already said that the crisis in russia is so deep now, and if we take only the 11th point, that there is no one to go to enterprises, that so far putin is throwing away the billions that he is still earning from oil into this furnace of the military industry, but, well , how, as people who understand this more deeply than you and i explain, mr. sergey, that this is the burning of one's own money, which does not give anything, here are these tanks that you showed

how destroyed our heroes,... these are actually the same billions that went into iron, which was destroyed, it did not give any, not a single additional effect for the economy, it eats up opportunities and does not give anything in return, so this is a path to nowhere, this is the way to the fact that the russian economy will very quickly cross the border from which it will not rise anymore, look, the rate is 18%, it is more than ours, and what does it mean? this means that the economy cannot function, because if i am a businessman and i take a loan at 18%, then i will never give it back, especially in times of war, so where is this economy going, it is going into the abyss, the economy is failing, what war, what, with shovels, well, it won't work, well, here 's another aspect that struck me in these 10 days, while the hostilities were unfolding on kurs... in

kursk oblast, it's such silence in the post-soviet space, informational silence, because on the one hand there is the csto, that is , the organization of the collective security agreement, well, formally, legally, they exist, that is, there are some agreements within the framework of the cis, there, and there is, as it were, some kind of space that is managed or not by putin, it is clear that in the russian federation is also the leader of the csto. but we don't see any kind of reaction, well, that is, russia, part of russia is under fire and our troops are entering this territory, that is, they all disappeared somewhere, except for lukashenka, of course, they all disappeared, they don't say anything, why? well, you see, mr. serhiy, and because, excuse me, on diplomatic comparisons have their tails up and don't understand what will happen tomorrow, and in such situations it is much more profitable to just type. into

the mouth of water and be silent like fish in an aquarium, because it is not known what will happen tomorrow and how it will turn out, but understanding that in moscow they have already found, you know, as always a fantastic way to justify this and that silence, they say that, well, since russia is the main element of the csto, so in principle we do not need the help of our partners in this block, we... they say we can handle everything ourselves, but the csto is very good, and so remember how it was in kazakhstan, when there were anti-government eyes and all the demonstrations of the csto, but it immediately became clear that the truth, for some reason, the kazakhs wanted this csto to disappear from the territory, to get out of there, so, well, you see, these are all fictions in which moscow lives, who comes up with something, an invention.