here, the americans, for example, did not ratify, let's ask oleksandr pavlichenko, the executive director of the ukrainian helsinki union for human rights, that 's right, right. the rome statute partly concerns human rights, and we ask him what the rome statute is about, why him, apart from the united states states, for example, was not ratified by ukraine, why did the president suddenly decide to ratify it now. thank you for joining our broadcast, thank you very much. greetings, mr. mykola, greetings to all viewers of espresso, have a good one broadcast and a good presenter. first of all, if we are talking about the rome statute, then here, i would clarify, it is not about human rights,

but about the definition of categories of international crimes for which responsibility arises and the development of such a mechanism as to bring this responsibility, and this mechanism is called and is the international criminal court. there are four categories of crimes, war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide and the crime of genocide, actually the crime of aggression. for which no one has even been tried and brought to justice from member states, but here we are not talking about member states, but about individual legal, criminal responsibility, because specific personalities are determined there, and they are prosecuted accordingly , sentences are passed, and as a result, when these sentences are related with deprivation of liberty, then these persons are sent accordingly. to serve the punishment,

let us remind her that this process was started back in 2002, in fact , the international criminal court has been standing on its feet for 22 years, creating its practice and well building up, let's say experience, during this time already there 122 states have become members of this roman statute of the roman statute e-e and accordingly. what can they do as member states of the rome statute, in addition to the fact that ukraine, for example, is a signatory state, let's say right away, we now see the international court of justice, this is a slightly different judicial instance of the united nations organization, this is the international court of justice, which examines precisely the interstate. the international

criminal court does not consider international disputes disputes, there is, accordingly, such a link or structural subdivision, as the office of the prosecutor of the international criminal court, to date, this prosecutor is mr. karim khan, who actually prepares the case materials, investigates the commission of these categories for... a crime, we already said by the majority, these are usually war crimes, crimes against humanity, sometimes it is genocide, and accordingly transfers the materials for consideration to the chamber of judges, which makes a decision on whether enough has been collected in the material, or it is legally defined enough, why ukraine-america did not ratify, this is important, i am convinced that among the ukrainian viewers, there are not many lawyers who are able to submerge. and that is why ukraine did not sign

it and why many countries signed it , moreover, ukraine and mr. zelenskyi said that we will sign and ratify, but we will not be held accountable for seven years. citizens of ukraine for war crimes. and this seems important to me, moreover, my friend, personal, close the second was killed by an american soldier in iraq. yes, taras pratsyuk. and because the ambassador, i was an american friend with the ambassador at the time, he says: i don't see any options for the future, we, we can't hand over our soldiers and... well, that's how

they behaved, well, i'm not, i have no complaints , this is the white house, the white house decided so, and ukrainians, why don't we sign, or rather ratify? precisely because we understand that then there will be claims against us as well. ukraine signed the rome statute. let me remind you, she was ready to ratify it, she actually signed it already 22 years ago, or rather 24 years ago in 2000, and then there were various circumstances that prevented the ratification of this document. the first circumstance was mr. leonid kuchma, who was afraid that... that suddenly he could be prosecuted for, we know the gongadze case, but the gongadze case was only the tip of the iceberg, because it was actually such a special operation of the special services and there was something to prosecute the panel, possibly

of the former president, which could be, and he , fearing these consequences, actually did not, let's say, contribute to the ratification procedure, of the rome statute, then 2008, we know, russia's war in georgia, and here ukraine watched very closely how russia used this instrument of the international criminal court, sending there materials about what georgia is violating, actually committing war crimes in abkhazia, south ossetia, and the international criminal court was for'. materials on both sides, by the way, both georgia sends and the russian federation sends, but the georgian case, or rather, let's say, it was determined that there were three violators, we know, in fact, and, accordingly, russia was not convicted, there was

a very cautious approach of this international criminal court regarding this case, but it lasted more than 10 years of proceedings, and ukraine, paying attention to such a context, was afraid that russia could resort to this method again , and after 2014, let's remember that ukraine applied twice in 2014-2015 to the international criminal court with a request to recognize the jurisdiction of the same icc, but pointing a finger at whom, russia must be considered and see how it commits crimes, qualified according to this rome statute, war crimes, crimes against humanity, both in crimea and in the occupied territories of donetsk and luhansk regions, and at the same time, it was a very interesting process from 2014, when

ukraine already had to ratify this statute, realizing that it is de facto, that is, in reality, it has already entered the system of international criminal law. court, and well, we can say this very simple fact that there are six arrest warrants issued by the international criminal court to date, passed on russian high-ranking officials and military commanders, that is, this is the result, this is that in fact this system works in relation to russia's war in ukraine, but ukraine... at the same time was very afraid that one of its representatives could be found guilty of committing war crimes crimes, whether it will be submitted by russia, or whether it will be possible by an independent investigation of the same icsu, and accordingly, this fear

from 2014, it was even personified, i can even name specific names, who was behind it, this fear, it. .. with stimulated this process rejection of non-ratification, what happened now that they stopped stimulating, on the contrary, they are now stimulating the process of ratification of this roman statute, what happened that in the second year and a half of the war they suddenly decided, well, not suddenly, apparently, judging by your words, they decided to ratify, has something changed? there was, well, first of all, clarifications were constantly made from 2015 both regarding the military and law enforcement agencies, because at the stage of 2014-16 it was mostly the ministry of internal affairs, which was such, let's say, the center of resistance, but now,

what happened, first of all , there was very strong political pressure, secondly, it was actually clarified and clarified, look... we work together with the office of the prosecutor of the icc, which opened its field office here in ukraine in 2023, and you they talked about this last year, they noted that there are already... leaders, that is, we are working, we are actually in the system of the international criminal court, in the event that it is even determined that some of the facts can be considered such a war crime, we we will consider it and we will be obliged considered at the national level. we will not wait for the international criminal court to do this. well, let's imagine that one of the ukrainians, for example, committed some treachery or arbitrarily destroyed prisoners of war. which is a fact of a war crime, for example, yes, they will understand why it happened and who

is to blame, and who should bear the punishment, that is , it should not be hidden, it will be an investigation and a corresponding trial, but fear that for this , higher ranks will be brought in, which means that she is preparing such a thing the systematic, let's say, or large-scale policy of committing war crimes, what russia actually carries out in... the occupied territories , their practice of applying or committing war crimes to date actually covers, if we say, for example, article eight, a war crime, there there are 27 qualifications, all 27 qualifications we know everything about russia, and my question is different, why ukrainians, right now, the ukrainian authorities have decided that we need this ratification of this statute, please. i say once again, this is a political decision, we have appeared for

the adoption of a political decision requires, i would say so, political drivers, and ms. iryna mudra is precisely one of such political drivers, that is, it can be said here that this process, which has been going on for a long time, is not a decision that was made during the last day or the last week, we just knew about it for several months already. that is, this process began to develop very, let's say, deeply and intensively, well, from the beginning of the summer, from the beginning of the summer, that's for sure, and it was already known that it should end sometime before the end of the summer or at the beginning in the fall, it was actually as a program item, and with it ms. iryna just moved to work in the president's office, and this work, as we can see, was completed, additional steps were taken, there were... certain, let's say, communications with the international by the criminal court, it all happened, and in fact

the conviction of those who made the most resistance at the national level, it was also carried out, and today we see this kind of compromise, that is, this is a deep process that has this kind of detection, in fact, this let's say yes, a political decision, it is not so much a legal as a political decision, and it is caused both by certain external pressure and... the understanding that actually, in fact , the situation with ratification does not significantly change and does not, say, pose a threat to of ukraine, even i would say that with this caveat under article 124 of the rome statute, what you said, for seven years, let's say, to establish an embargo on the application of these standards of prosecution against ukrainians, this is exactly... the situation and deterioration of the situation than that the situation that exists today, when

de facto everyone absolutely equally falls under the jurisdiction of the same international criminal court, regardless of whether they are ukrainians or whether they are representatives of the russian federation of the aggressor state. thank you very much to oleksandr pavlichenkov, the executive director of the ukrainian helsinki union for human rights, thank you for explaining to us what we... did not understand, and i have to tell you the following, i am saying this on the second day and may continue to say it, so that august 24 is independence day, and our espresso tv channel is preparing a special project, bright people in dark times, this is a story about heroic people, and this is an interview with viktor yushchenko, svyatoslav shevchuk, serhii plokhi and a documentary film where... 10 years of war will be just that all airing on espresso on independence day

from eight o'clock in the morning until midnight, if you don't miss it, you won't regret it, and if you miss it, you'll regret it, well, on the occasion of what we just said, or rather what i said about about what literally tomorrow the 19th, the beginning of the gkchchp, and i... forgot how it translates: the state emergency committee , oh, i remembered, here, one of the most active participants of those events and many others. of other events in the history of ukraine, in general a participant, in fact from the 89-90s and until today , volodymyr filenko, politician, people's deputy of the first, third, fourth, sixth convocations, the commander of the orange maidan, you see him, my old friend, friend, volodymyr filenko, now we will start talking, last time we, when met a year ago, he said: "i

won't be able to speak for you", so we agreed that we will stay, and here... you won't get anywhere, but good health, glory to ukraine, congratulations, mykola , greetings to all viewers, here is the first question, our, our old opinion, our old idea, maybe it has changed a little, after all, maybe not on the 24th, but on december 1, well, because on the 24th, 360, i have already forgotten , two deputies voted for neza. addiction including you, and i looked down on this whole press box, still 91 or there 90 almost 2% voted first first december, maybe now we will agree that let's not cancel the 24th, but organize

another holiday on the first of december, especially since all revolutions are great and majestic from. there were at least two for sure, just on this day, these days, and it always added emotion, added energy to the maidan, that on december 1 the ukrainian people voted for independence, confirmed independence, what do you say, i will say yes, without august 24 because it was not december 1, this is, i'm sorry, that's my life. such an overconfidence, i am the day of conception, and i am the day of birth, so, although you see in us, it's simple on the 24th we have sex, i understood correctly, we have a sexual day, we have a happy day, a happy day, on this day we celebrate the birthday of every person, and every

normal state has a day regardless, well, except for the empire, eh , this is the biggest. holiday in the same united states, i want to immediately draw attention to such an insert to mykola. this is what resurrected both ukraine and ukraine. will exist forever in a happy family democratic states, what you and i dream about, but we are showing mr. kravchuk, as from your point of view, as he is, well, he used a unique moment, it just speaks of the greatness of ukraine and the verkhovna rada

of ukraine and the chairman of the verkhovna rada, in this at the moment it was possible to disagree. he said, okay, let's put it to the vote, here we see him now, two years before, he was still a completely communist person, but thanks to you, thanks to the people's council, that is, this is the anti-communist opposition, which told 120-130 people there, the government was 239, all the same somehow they pushed in the direction of independence, why did that happen, well mykola, you are actually happy. the book of my memories, and you must have seen the place where i said that kramchuk and i were lucky, because in it volynyaka, where the opba was born, by the way, defeated komunyak, and he nationalized his consciousness, all that he then did for the declaration of an independent country was

a happy moment for all of us, it should be appreciated, on the other hand. for the sake of fairness , i want to say that every nomenclature worker, and there were times when the soviet nomenclature sought to be a bigger fish, even if this pond is smaller, but the main thing is to be the biggest fish there in this pond, in this sense , kravchuk and ukraine achieved this feat. by the way, we were lucky with another nakatorschik with yeltsin. him, but when his friends said to him there, yes, boris, what are you doing? the collapsing union, he said, well, the main thing we need to do is remove the metidov, we will deal with kohl later, well

, he called the mountain mechynym, one more question, and on august 19, i’ll be honest about myself, on august 19, 1991, i was absolutely convinced , that everyone will lose, and ukraine will lose, and yeltsin will lose. democracy will lose, well, because i had a hard time imagining that such a huge force, power, and the army, and the kgb, and district committees, and regional committees, and well, a bunch of everything is on the side of the ussr, and here suddenly , after all, what did you think 19 august 1991, mykola, first of all, i am happy that you beat your forecast. although you are a smart man and experienced, and what i think was anxiety, there was, if i say that it was not anxiety, i would have slapped you and the audience,

shadom, it was very anxiety, but we and you were witness this, we did what could be in our power, and we understood that, perhaps, this would give a chance to declare an independent ukraine. calls for the declaration of independent ukraine began to be heard, if not on august 19, then on the 20th, 21st, for sure, and why, what prompted, because you and i talked about it 157 thousand times, but i had no feeling , even on the 24th, sitting on the sidelines of the verkhovna rada, watching, i watched, i spied something there... something i was in the hall of this movie theater where the communists gathered, where was gurenko, who we showed, convinced that let's vote for, because if we don't

vote for, we would, because there will start repressions of the comptium in moscow, and we will somehow hold on here and we will not be banned, there was some such hint, then there was, there was and such , but i want to say right away, i personally... and my colleagues were given confidence by people who were under the verkhovna rada, by that time people in kyiv and in all regions of ukraine had learned to go out on the streets and express their will, and we as politicians had they had to be guided by them, they had to listen to them. the verkhovna rada was surrounded on august 24 made that option impossible. that independence was not proclaimed, as i said in the same place where i already gave the link, they had the feeling that a rare communist would reach the middle of the dnieper

if they did not vote for independence that day, and kravchuk, whom we already mentioned, did not accidentally chose its meeting to be held on august 24, he counted how many votes he... would receive, in addition to the 125 votes that the people's council had, he counted the votes of the communists, the secretaries reported to him: leonid makarovych, mykolaiv region is ready to vote how many people, the donetsk region is ready to vote how many people, and kravchuk was engaged in arithmetic, and when he and budry plyush calculated that there would be 300 and more, they announced an extraordinary session, at which the historic act of declaring an independent ukrainian state was adopted, then

one of the last questions i have is very philosophical, so independence is more of a ratio or an emotion, because all of us who sat and looked around and the people who stood on the street, for them it was an emotion, it was a desire, but it turns out... kravchuk sat with a pencil, counted a column or something else, that i have 300 there or 200 so many votes, and this is it, and this is purely such a rational approach, did i understand you correctly, and you also counted, and we counted, and kravchuk counted, it was both ratio and emotion, and here everything coincided, and we got a chance, a chance. to the declaration of an independent ukrainian state, and the declaration of an independent ukrainian state gave us a chance to build

a powerful support. a happy ukraine for its citizens is possible, not everyone in ukraine agreed with this, but as we are now witnessing, unfortunately, russia agreed with this the most, but the roots of this war, if you want, i will repeat myself, today this russian-ukrainian war is a war for an independent ukrainian state, it was just postponed, maybe... a question, but important or overriding: 24 august 1991, or even december 1, 1991, did you think that when we embark on such a european path, so powerful, we will already forget about the communists, we will forget about the soviet union, we will move in the right direction, because god most people

said 5-10 years. and now we celebrate 33 anniversary, how naive we were then in that sense, hoping that the same muscovites would leave us alone and give us the opportunity to develop, well, i was frankly thinking about 15-20 years, and why should i say it, because there was an example of poland, poland from a backward country a socialist state, reached... the leading economic frontiers in 15-20 years, and in fairness it must be admitted that huge sums of money were poured into poland for the collective defense, first of all in the united states, in order to make it a showcase and such a demonstrative, demonstrative state, which and has emerged and is becoming successful, look at all its

baltic regions of ukraine. tsimboldovans and cossacks, how can everything be, if you are on the right path, due to various circumstances, and above all, i think so, due to the fact that there was always a powerful russian column in ukraine, and it did not go anywhere, us our path has stretched, the desire from the west to seriously invest in us has stretched, we know what's next. that there were also certain agreements between russia and germany, between them, between russia and the states, that they would keep us in the whole zone, well but now we have adhered to the situation that unfortunately exists today. our broadcast with you is ending. volodymyr filenko, ukrainian politician, people's deputy of ukraine, of the first, third, fourth, and sixth convocations, field commander of orange maidan. talked

to me, my old friend, thank you, my lord, huge, let’s call, talk, maybe we’ll raise a glass, why not, i say goodbye to you, i also remember this day, i went underground on this day on the 19th, but somehow yes, it worked for me for half a day, then i realized that the bbc continues to speak, i started before, i then worked for the bbc, for british radio, and continued my work, already in the evening my voice... rang out everywhere in the then soviet union, 21 million people listened to the bbc at that time, well, that’s all, what happened, you know everything about it, i say goodbye to you today and wish you all great victories and a good celebration of our next week, and this is the week when the independence of the ukrainian state was proclaimed 33 years ago. mykola

veresen was with you, all the best! welcome to espresso, it's the saturday politics club, my name is khrystyna yatskiv and i thank everyone who joins us this saturday evening, vitaly portnikov will certainly appear on your screens with brilliant, as always, analysis, it will be in the second part. of our program, the entire first hour, a little less, we will devote to conversations with the most qualified experts, we will talk about the situation on the fronts, about affairs in international politics, and we will not forget about the middle east either. i will probably start with the main news items of this week: ukraine recognizes its presence and its operation in kursk region and even creates.