how will it affect those who defend ukraine with weapons in their hands? we will talk about this and other things with our experts for the next 45 minutes, and let me remind you that we are working live on the tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms. for those who are currently watching us live on these platforms, please subscribe to our pages, take part in our survey. today we are asking you about whether moscow is in danger. church of the security of ukraine. yes, no, everything is quite simple on youtube, either yes or no. if you have a different opinion, please leave it in the comments below this video. if you're watching us on tv, grab your smart phone or phone and vote. if you believe that the moscow church threatens the security of ukraine - 0800-211-381, no, 0800-211-382. all calls to these numbers are free, vote at the end of the program and we will match. the results

of this vote, i want to introduce the guests of today's studio, this is viktor boberenko, an expert of the bureau of policy analysis, mr. viktor, i congratulate you, thank you for with us today, good health, i have no light, but the internet seems to be there, i am with you, thank god, we will watch you and communicate with you despite the lack of light. serhiy taran, political scientist, mr. serhiy, i congratulate you. thank you for joining the broadcast. i congratulate you. gentlemen, since we are asking our tv viewers whether the moscow church is a threat to the security of ukraine? kind of a rhetorical question, and obviously the answer is yes. everyone should have it, but here is a preliminary survey in the previous program, in the previous part, shows that 7% still do not believe that the moscow church threatens national security. what do you think?

let's start with mr. viktor, well, in fact , there is a threat, of course, and we have to react, although the threat is exaggerated, because the majority of the population is indifferent to, well , matters of religion, in fact they are believers, and there the majority of ukrainians will say that they are orthodox, but what kind of patriarchy... a large part will get confused, and they will also say that it doesn't matter what church you go to, if you go twice a year, the pasochka will be consecrated there too, well, maybe i will recruit there or there is salvation now, yes, although it is so strange to me, here i live in sumy, from my window i can see two churches, yes, far to the left is the moscow one, far to the right is

the ukrainian one, then apparently it became this paska and apparently there were about four times more ukrainian than moscow, that is, the people reoriented themselves, well at least in terms of what they bought for, what they sold for, but i looked at today's research, and in fact there are almost 13% who consider themselves faithful to the uoc of the entire population, it's just some, uh, some... accordingly, they have a position, well, this is also there, which we can assume there is, like aristovych, there he has his own national team, yes, which ones are for ukraine, but like with pushkin and bulgakov, but this is somewhere around this version, these are elderly people, young people, i say again, identity-specific, well, in the majority, in western and central ukraine, where young people go to church, they go to... the ukrainian church,

but these people, as a rule, do not pose a threat , but now, but, but still, considering that there is not much damage from them, i think they are exaggerating, the damage is, and therefore it is very right, very right to ban the moscow church, that is, i am absolutely in favor, thank you, mr. viktor, mr. serhiy, is the moscow church a threat to security? of ukraine? well, it must be said that we are not talking about that now. we are talking about a subdivision of the russian state, which they call the church, and which is used by the kremlin authorities to promote its narratives, to promote its influence, by the way, not only in ukraine, but also in ukraine in particular. but we understand very well that this is not exactly a church, precisely because it... is

an integral part of all state structures, that is, representatives of this so-called church are always present at all events with putin's participation, they always sanctify everything too. what putin says, they support, well, in russia, in general, this church is part of the state, so the question is whether the russian state threatens us now, the question is of course rhetorical, it is just such a huge strategic mistake to constantly call it a church and say that it is actually religious the question is not a question of religion, it is a question of security, just like in the united states, for example would never allow the existence of al-qaeda or various extremists there. by the ex-islamic movement, although perhaps they are also religious, it will also be strange in ukraine, if at all it is strange, that until now this structure still existed legally in ukraine, the whole western world is fighting against terrorism, even if these terrorists are motivated by any religious

slogans, because it's not about religion at all, it's about security, that's why this situation with the russian so-called church is purely a matter of security, and what they call a church, well, yes, if we believe them... well, then let's call skabeeva a journalist, let's call then russian propaganda, which is not only in ukraine, in europe, and that, by the way, it is already banned, russian channels, tv channels , are forbidden in europe, to call them freedom of speech, and not russian propaganda, then it is possible to call the terrorists in the east militiamen, and the russian army to say that they are conducting a liberation operation, and not that they started an aggression against. they have been running for the third year, so you don't have to just weigh in on this word of the church, you just need to understand what it is doing, and it is doing systematic, subversive work against the ukrainian state, it was doing it even before the war, it is doing it now, and the decision of the verkhovna rada is definitely,

although it is late, but oh well better late than never, well, without a doubt, especially considering the fact that for 2.5 years they tried to introduce and... finally adopt a decision on the banning of religious organizations that are connected to the russian federation, such a decision is in place, your highness the council adopted and commented on this law on activity of religious organizations, the representative of the orthodox church of ukraine, metropolitan epiphany called on all the orthodox of ukraine to dialogue and finally get out of the moscow yoke, let's listen to what metropolitan epiphany said. the law makes it possible for all religious structures that have not yet done so to really now completely free themselves from moscow's control, and we, for our part , again and again call on all orthodox in ukraine

who have not yet done so to finally throw off this russian yoke. we are open to dialogue without prerequisites, and this was recently mentioned again in my letter. to metropolitan onuphrius and those who are with him. mr. viktor, yesterday's vote for the law on religious organizations connected with russia, banning these religious organizations is called a historic decision. what historical actions does this historical law require now? well, all the insiders told me that... stefanchuk therefore sent them on leave, a conditional leave, precisely because they did not have, did not have enough votes, they found these votes, it is clear that there, among the opzzhists, they tried to confuse it all in three pines, but the votes were found, but

now i think that the following will happen, that they , just as they had the party of regions, well , they banned the party of regions, well, they banned the party of communists, but the communists regionals are nowhere. don't share, they have reformatted the regions, we now see some kind of opzzh in the rank of opzzh, yes, then i think that now all these anfriivians will create some kind of, well, church opzzh for the faith, yes there, and they will carry with it just so, well , well, roughly speaking, well, a sign they will shoot, yes, but... will anufry become ukrainian, or will he become a patriot of ukraine? what do you believe in this? no, he will still be there praying for kirill putin, when putin comes, these people will not change anything. and we have to relate to it, yes. but, let's put it this way,

i myself personally know one father who holds on to the moscow patriarchate, what kind of man is he, as he told me that... the bishop ordained me, i kiss his hand, he ordained me, i, if i'll go with him, if he doesn't go, i won't go, though he sings about ukrainian soldiers, he says patriotic things, i was at one of the funerals, he speaks very sincerely, very correctly, very coolly, but at the same time he is a servant of the moscow church there, i spoke with him , well, they say why not go over there, he says, well, that’s it, i don’t know all the motives, all the motivations, all the fathers of those priests, but everyone has their own opinion in their head, why... they transfer or not, i will repeat again, again, again and again, many priests of moscow

patriarchate, they are patriots, they are together with their clergy, they are together with their people, but their episcopate is serhiy rightly said, yes, they are fsb colonels, they are at least majors there, fsb colonels, i remembered, i am in the 21st i was in severodonetsk last year, i attended a training course there. for the press services of the military, yes, and i went to this holy mountain, i went there with my wife, it’s not me , even i already have my eye on all these kagibists. yes, but the correction is there, you know the fsb lieutenant, at least, yes, they look

22-23 years old, but they look like an fsb lieutenant in ryas, that's how they look. thank you, mr. viktor, mr. serhiy, but mr. viktor did not for nothing mention this whole story from the party of regions, and this is what we have observed, well , over the past 10 years, as this party of regions, they tried to strangle it, or at least somehow limit it. and including politicians who were part of the party of regions, they were constantly reborn as opz, there, the opposition bloc, then they there part of them were transformed, they probably went to the sharia party on the ground, well, that is, it was a constant transformation, some parties were banned, other parties appeared, if we recall the 20-year history in general, and what happened 20 years ago, we even had a party supporting vladimir putin and she... took part in the parliamentary elections of 2006, although they won not a small percentage there, even in

sevastopol, but the same thing happened in ukraine, will it not be the same as with the opzh faction in the verkhovna rada, because it is already there they are for peace from life, and not opzzh and they call themselves in a completely different way, will it not be the same with the ukrainian orthodox church of the moscow patriarchate, or in this case, well... since this mention is not in the law, it is generally about all organizations that otherwise, they can be affiliated with the russian federation, well, it was different in the history of ukraine, there was also a communist party that disappeared, but we must understand that laws alone will not help matters here, of course, that the verkhovna rada and ukrainian officials have to approve correct and make the right decision so that those structures that work against the national interests

of ukraine cannot operate in ukraine, and in ukraine it is necessary to separate where there is actual freedom of conscience and where there is simply the activity of an enemy state, but the fundamental issue is that the voters they never voted for it again, they never voted for those people who, just the other day, in the verkhovna rada... will continue to support this moscow so -called church, but they will move on to other political projects, and they can again to vote, so the key issue is that our voter has a better memory, so that voters, going to the polling stations , understand and know who they are voting for, so that they are interested in the biography of these people and the biography of these structures, and are interested in what they spoke three years ago, or five years ago, and what made them? to change the position, the position can be changed, but you cannot change the position in such a way that it contradicts

the interests of ukraine, so it is necessary to understand this, and i think that until the ukrainian voters finally learn to remember those the people they vote for will not fail to learn to remember what these people did in the past, until then we will always have the kind of rebirths you are talking about, there will always be opposition, non-opposition blocs, the party of regions, the renewed party of regions, united party of regions. it will always be until all of us learn to vote not on the emotion that lives there for 5 minutes when voters go to vote, but to weigh. intelligently, thinking before going to the polling stations, choosing carefully, because everything comes from these people it depends, that's why the laws will help here, but of course, the memory of the voters is the best safeguard, against the fact that we do not have new regional parties, or new yanukovych's renewed ones in the verkhovna rada, even

after the end of the war. well, obviously, not only the memory of ukrainians, but also the work of the special services and the work of the state. bodies that in one way or another, especially during wartime, regulate the situation in the country, and what the spokeswoman for the ministry of foreign affairs of the russian federation maria zakharova says shows that they they still hope for a split in ukrainian society, she says that banning the uocp only deepens the split in ukrainian society, obviously they are counting on it, let's listen to what zakharova said, here. here, the goal was to eradicate the canonical true orthodoxy, and instead of it to bring up a pontoon, in this way , a substitute church, which should be understood only in this way , a false church, you understand, to create a quasi -orthodox church, it should be called that, it is not a schismatic church that broke away, it is a false quasi-church. and this is said by a person who

represents the country in which the church belongs. also , in principle, naskolnytsia had a moscow church, a russian orthodox church. mr. viktor, considering that russia claims our heritage, spiritual heritage, and claims that there is a part of their roots here, and in fact, it is their root, and not any ukrainians there, what do you think, will he do an attempt by the russian federation to appropriate this history and... to create some myths that they were the first and we were the second in this history, and twist it like this by the way, putin does quite often when he puts a 25-meter monument to vladimir the great in moscow, and tries to show that they are the inheritors of this glorious

history, and not ukrainians. well, when volodymyr, prince volodymyr. baptized rus, in the swamps there were still monkeys running through the trees, yes, well, we know that, but eh, if we are historically frank, yes, eh, zakharov can say anything, but we know for ourselves, yes we know they were in schism with the byzantine church for 150 plus years years, yes, they, their metropolitanate did not... know, they ordained themselves, they then actually did not buy this canonicity, well, when the patriarch of constantinople actually lived in istanbul and the sultans controlled it, then it was possible to buy, redeem, yes there the moscow tsars were richer than the patriarchs of constantinople, and

something could have been done, we remember that they did not have a patriarch since 1700, that they had a right in the synod under peter and so on, so on, so on. in fact, well, for 200 years, 200 years , they didn't have a patriarch there, like what they say there, like what they can hide from us, they have now split with the patriarchate of constantinople , actually becoming schismatics, now they are schismatics, and by no means blame us, but this is history, these are nuances that ordinary people do not understand for... for those people, everything is clear there for of ordinary people, yes, there is a part of the faithful, again , i say that there are 6 to 13% of them in ukraine, in various regions there, well, that is, it is a small layer of the population that is basically useless for anything do, not only that, people like

the rule of an older age, who are faithful there, who are for these popes, bishops, who will be forever. you can kiss pavel lebedu's hands there, and there , despite what you say, you are watching something, you throw pennies, and he has mercedes, well , anyway, we will not remake these people, they are with them, the moscow popes they can do anything with them, yes, they are people who are easy to manipulate, but this is how insignificant a part of society that is , well, if we are civilized people, we cannot ignore them, but at least we can ignore their opinion and say there like... they won't make the weather, but these fsb colonels need to be brought out into the open, colonels, majors or young boys who are running around in the rank of lieutenant of the fsb, anyway, we can't... in the kyiv-pechersk lavra or in the holy mountains or in pochaev, there were lieutenants running around, that's right, we can't, but they are lieutenants of the fsb, anyway, we need to react to this, we need

to explain it to people, we need to communicate in this way, we need communication to be with every religious community , so that they move, we have, i read today, almost 900 communities, 880 somehow moved from the russian orthodox church, well, from the moscow patriarchate. to epiphanius in the ocu, that is what is needed to have such churches in nine months, this period has been set aside, yes, so that there will be even more. we now have more ocu than, er, the moscow patriarchate, but in some regions, in particular in my native sumy region, the moscow patriarchate prevails, because there in this community, which i am now in, it is to the north of the diet, and this community , i will tell you honestly, here in the andrii district. derkacha is only in glukhovo and shostka one church of the ocu, all the rest is the moscow patriarchate, he simply did not allow anyone to physically open up here, this is

andrii derkach, a state traitor to the state, who is a colonel there, to be honest, here you are telling me about this, i feel really bitter for my native sumshchyna , that in the sumy oblast people are completely different in character, that is, and this was shown in the first days. wars and we used to know that the revolution of dignity and the orange revolution did not pass aside, and the student revolution on the grass, a completely different world, i mean, compared there with eastern ukraine, if you take there donetsk region or, let's say, luhansk region, that is, this is the cossack region and the descendants of the cossacks, because these hundreds and regiments that were in the territory of the sumy region, they are basically from there, well , people... and all those who are now there left , and it is a mystery to me, to be honest, why there are so many churches of the moscow patriarchate in the sumy region, although i was

also baptized in this church of the moscow patriarchate in sumy, and it is clear that it was soviet times, but now it is just a mystery to me , i don't understand why at that moment, when russia attacks the sumy region quite actively during the last... half a year, that 's for sure, well, the attack, why do the moscow popes have so much power there, i can't do that, well, it's more due to the north of the region than to the north of the diet, it's in romny this is not the situation, you mean puti, nihinotopa in general was in the spring of 22 , he closed all moscow churches with a lock and everything, they sued him, well he closed and closed, well he is like that, he is very... uh- er, such, well, with, with such, here is another story, another story unfolding before our eyes, this,

how representatives of the ecumenical patriarch bartholomew are now trying to be included in the negotiations, major negotiations, between the representatives of the orthodox churches in ukraine, president zelenskyy had a telephone conversation with the ecumenical patriarch, he reported this on social networks. that the president of ukraine announced, separately emphasized the importance of the new law on spiritual independence, which is meant in the conversation supported by the all-ukrainian council of churches and religious organizations and emphasized that an independent people should be independent as well spiritually, and he thanked the patriarch for receiving the ukrainian delegation in istanbul and invited him to visit ukraine, but andriy kovalev writes on his facebook page that today a delegation of the ecumenical patriarchate arrived in ukraine, which in particular will contribute to the search ways of understanding between the orthodox churches of ukraine and the orthodox and dialogue to

achieve unity in the church issue. mr. serhiy, do you think it will be possible to achieve this dialogue and understanding between the orthodox churches in ukraine and which in nine months, well, one of the churches will be forced to choose what... to do next and how? well, i think that it will not be possible immediately, but gradually, step by step, this is the same process as the formation of ukrainian identity in general. ukrainian identity, it was formed a long time ago, it became state after 1991, but even after 1991, we know how difficult it all was, and what ukrainians thought, and who was their geopolitical enemy, and who was their geopolitical friend until the 13th year, when most ukrainians believed that nato was the enemy bloc, but... they have a common history, most, not all, of course, but there were, then after the 14th year, an understanding was formed that we should join the european union, that we belong to this european civilization,

already after that. .. of russia's full-scale aggression, i think even more citizens finally understood who is a real friend and who is an enemy, and this process, it continues, it cannot continue, you know, for several days, this is the process of creating a ukrainian identity, and how and any identity, it is created for years, or even decades, therefore , of course, something will depend on the visit of her . , we are talking about banning a terrorist structure, but it is a matter of time, it is a matter of gradually forming in ukrainians the understanding that they belong to the same culture as the church, where there may be, by the way, many religious churches, but the most important thing is that that they are citizens of one single state, and so on realization, it cannot be in a few

days, but step by step... step by step i absolutely believe, i am sure, by the way, this is a huge strategic defeat for putin, huge, by the way, not only for putin, but also for russia in general, which is ukrainian the state will definitely exist, and if it definitely exists, then it will definitely have churches that will support ukraine and dialogue, and tolerance and democracy, but of course not as quickly as we would like. friends, i remind you that we are working live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, during we spend all of our broadcasts asking you about the following: does the moscow church threaten the security of ukraine? yes, no, everything is quite simple on youtube, either yes or no, if you have a separate opinion, leave it in the comments below this video. if you watch us on tv, take your smartphone or phone and vote 0.800-211-381, if you think that the moscow church is a threat to the security of ukraine, and no, 0800 211 382, ​​all calls to these numbers are free, vote

at the end of the program we under. we are reviewing the results of this vote, i remind you that today we have viktor boberenko and serhiy taran are on the air, and gentlemen, obviously now we have to say a word about the currency operation, because one way or another, after the decision to ban the moscow church, it is a leading topic not only in the ukrainian media, in ukrainian society, in the world press . a lot is written about this, about what ukraine gains, what it loses in the current situation, well, we see how the ukrainians entered the judgment, how they moved on, and obviously the course will continue, will moscow continue, mr. viktor, are you there closer to the judges to the kursk region, and obviously you are where these three bridges blew up, in glushkovo, that's how. yes yes, only you

on this side of the diet, well, it means well , i was once there on this bridge in hlushkovo , i know it, this bridge used to take students there, there was a euroregion of yaroslavna, and the europeans gave us money to reeducate the strays here there were a lot of exchanges , including the journalists' clubs alla oleksiivna fedorina, you probably know she drove. they studied the ukrainian-russian conflict, that was the project, several of our people went there so that we could explore the ukrainian villages on that side, on the other side, but they very clearly identify themselves as russians, we are not

muscovites. this is an identification, well, by the way , let’s say yes, for somewhere in 2003, it was very clear, but not somewhere in 2007-8, but when i last drove then i was on the glushkovsky bridge, yes , it was a long time ago, it was there, well, 15 years ago, but on this bridge which one is being shown to you now , i was there and that one, well, what can i say that political goals here are more important than military ones, yes, military ones it. well, there we are, we are delaying, maybe delaying, maybe not delaying, i am not an expert, but the fact that even in sums the euphoria is terrible, this is despite the fact that everyone admits, yes, we will now be hostages of the situation, in sums there have been more arrivals, it will be more frequent, but it is still euphoria, and euphoria is not that we are not beasts there, like our neighbors, yes, we were not wild, we understood.