a dissident, yes, the wife of the iconic ukrainian, ukrainian poet ihor kalynets, she once told me that, unfortunately, we , the communists then, gave away the tribune, not the government, that is, the communists went into the shadows and into the shadow government, when we talk about apparatuses , in business, in banks, and so on, well, like gorenka, he became a big businessman, by the way, what did he do then, well, he had some financial assets, then he became the head of the committee on the upper economy. for the sake of it, he didn't go anywhere, he just wasn't there anymore in this weight, but he had a business, he was quite a serious player at his level, not at this level, i say again, this story undermined him, because he wanted more, for him ukraine, like for ivazhko, was not something self-sufficient, these people did not lose power in ukraine, they lost the country in which they wanted to rule, and now the third position is kravchuk. kravchuk led the communist sovereign, of which there were few. people

who were ready for ukrainian independence under their own authority, for whom ukraine was an end in itself, and by the way, once again, i learned about it in 1900 89 or 90, or when kravchuk was arguing with a movement, i came to him at the central committee of the communist party of ukraine, as the secretary of the central committee of the communist party of ukraine for ideology, and already a member of the politburo of the central committee of the cpsu, it seems to me, the central committee of the communist party of ukraine, and i asked him in this interview. how does he feel about the independent communist party of lithuania and the position of algert brazauskas, its leader, who led the communist party of litvytsk prs, and leonid makarovych in his characteristic manner asked why, for whom i am asking this question, what audience will read it, i told him that this is exclusively for the audience of foreign journalists, and they are simply interested in his position, i would not be bored if he still reformulated it there according to the old zeki rules of some sort, with which...

to be interested, no, no, it was that's exactly how the audience will see it, and i told him to the foreigner, well, it was true, i was doing an interview for a foreign correspondent audience, it was like that in the first months of the interfax agency, which then worked exclusively for a foreign audience, huh, what i have not seen his material materials in the soviet union itself, it seems to me that this interview was not even published in any other language than english . and here leonid kravchuk tells me: i believe that the position of algert sabrazavskyi is the only possible position in the situation in which the lithuanian communists found themselves and i fully share this position. i'm looking at him, right? well, he knew that i, so i already worked in the youth of ukraine, i was a supporter of the movement and so on, and he, i tell him, i think we will work together, leonid makarovich, and he says to me: "and do not doubt." it was an exchange of remarks, we did not return to it. what followed was an extraordinary

conversation, changes, restructuring, publicity, well , karapchuk, as a party ideologue, could talk about it for 5 hours, but it no longer mattered, i would look at him, everything became clear to me, and there was such a moment between us when, i believe, it was a decisive moment in the future, and in my career as well, er... at the last congress of the cpsu, i don't remember if i told about it , but i will tell you why we came to those moments, volodymyr ivazhko agreed to the position of deputy general secretary of the central committee of the cpsu without even informing his comrades on the party central committee about it, interestingly, mykhailo horvachev met with him, said that it was necessary to stop ligachev, that he had such an assignment, and accepted this with great relief candidate. but he

hated them so much that when i met him on the sidelines and he told me that he was davis gorbachev and that he would run for the position of deputy general secretary of the central committee of the cpsu, well , i was, how old was i, 24 or 25 years old why didn't you join the communist party then, in order to destroy it from the inside, well, that's trolling, and we also understand that there were people who even at that time tried to make a joint career with the communists, that's what i don't want to call surnames of these people, but they, well, they were. this is savagery, yes, because then, at the time when everyone was putting in party tickets, there were those who hoped to invade the communists, well, first of all, i did not hope, secondly, i believed that given my political views, what he communicated there with academician andriy sakhar, with vyacheslav chornovol, with mykhailo gorin, when they left the camps, that it would be simply immoral, well, i joined the komsomol when i was in school, well, okay, but in my adulthood to join the communist party...

they tried to drag me there, i i spoke with relief to people who told me, why don't you write a statement to the party, i said, oh, i'm not writing anything, and you know, i have jewish origin, you somehow calmed down, you didn't touch me anymore, because somehow even ... then it was considered that there were too many jews in the communist system the party is not needed, well, thanks to this origin, it was possible to get away from all these pressures, because when a member of the politburo of the cpsu tells you why you don’t write a statement to the party, it is somehow difficult to say, you know, i am an anti-communist, i would like you to be hanged here on some, well, i didn't want them to be hanged, they were members of the politburo, who were not like that, not hooligans, but just ordinary officials, but i definitely did not want to be in the same organization with them. never, but it means that when vashka told me this, i mean like this youthful passion, that i know something that no one knows, well, that is, we know, we know the three of us, gorbachev, vazhko and i, you can imagine what an incredible insight will come, i ran to stanislav gurenko, with

whom i was on good terms, profiting from absolutely , i would say, diametrically opposed political views, and i tell him, stanislav ivanovich, and volodymyr antonovych will be.' to the position of deputy general secretary of the central committee of the cpsu. stanislav ivanovych says. he turned white. well, because he understood what it means when the head of the verkhovna rada of ukraine flees from ukraine through a few months after the election. ugh. and also on the day, on the days when the verkhovna rada of ukraine discussed the declaration on the sovereignty of ukraine. the congress of the cpsu and this session took place at the same time. to the cpsu, the verkhovna rada of ukraine approved the declaration of state sovereignty of ukraine in the absence of all party leaders, they were at the party congress, so i say to him: stanislav ivanovich, will you run for the post of verkhovna rada chairman? well, this is a logical question, and he

tells me: already one was swamped, and what happened? i think i should stay with party, to perform the duties of the first. secretary of the central committee, we spoke with you after my election as the first member of the central committee, you were the first journalist i spoke with, and i promised that i would lead the communist party of ukraine, i would not run for office, and you would at least go to kyiv in such a situation , he says, how can i go to kyiv, there is a congress of the communist party in moscow, how can i leave the congress, i'm a communist, you don't understand, you don't understand, you're not a communist, well, i think, well, if you're such an idiot, i'm sorry, then i went yes... i went further and met through a few minutes of leonid makarovich, kravchuk and i say, leonid makarovich, i have some interesting news for you, what kind of news, i say, well, first of all, volodymyr antonovych will be the deputy general of the cpsu, he is leaving

ukraine. leonid makarovich did not turn white, but reddened, i would say, from enthusiasm so certain, that's what i tell him. you know, this is an unfortunate situation, he says: yes, an unfortunate situation for the party, he was a member of the ska at the time, this is a problem, and you know, i say leonid makarovich, and not stanislav ivanovich gurenko will run for the position of chairman of the verkhovna rada of ukraine, he tells me, how do you know, they didn't talk, they had such a relationship, they didn't communicate, gorenko and gravchuk, by the way, the first and the second didn't communicate, there was practically not much communications, from where? well, i see , a few minutes ago, i asked him if he would go to kyiv or if he would run for office, so that means this is his decision, he wants to stay in the party , he is a communist, vitaliy, you are not a communist, you do not understand, this is where all this talk begins, well, no a communist, i will say lenin mykhailovych, maybe you will go to kyiv, leonid

makarovich says, you are not a communist vitaliy, how can a communist leave the party congress, well, i left and ran away, unlike the state. who told me everything correctly and remained at the congress, leonid makarovych, i think, flew to kyiv the very next day and was elected chairman of the verkhovna rada of ukraine, and if stanislav gurenko would have been elected chairman of the verkhovna rada of ukraine. imagine this situation, on august 24 , 1991, in the chair of the chairman of the verkhovna rada of ukraine, not leonid koravchuk, but stanislav gurenko, i'm not sure that we... passed the act of independence so that he would have appeared at all, but there would have been a confrontation, there would have been a struggle, ugh, moscow would have tried to move gurenko, yeltsin would hardly want gurenko to stay at the head of ukraine, because he would believe that gurenko would claim some higher positions in moscow, that is

, anything could happen there, and that day, when i was running between the three of them to find out how it would end, and i hope i tipped off leonid makarovich about the... motion vector, i think it was just stellar timing, but in any case, you described very specific manifestations of the so-called political miracle, so it was. the political will or sovereign will of the ukrainian people is extremely important, yes, but a lot of things could depend on some personnel decisions, personnel appointments, well, look what an illustration: mykhailo gorbachev demanded from the first secretaries of the central committee of the party of the union republics that they run for office the post of president or chairman of the verkhovna rada and left the posts of first secretaries of the central committee of the union republics, how many do you think people fulfilled his commission, no one. one volodymyr yavashko, he was the first member of the central committee, he was elected chairman of the verkhovna rada and he

resigned as the first member of the central committee. i generally thought it was complete hardware idiocy. nazarbayev, karimov, niyazov, all remained in their positions as party leaders, because there was real power, a vertical, and it was difficult for this vertical to be given to gurenko, and as a result , everything was like this. and look, here are the first elections, the second elections and so on. for example, a full-day shift, yes, well, we can talk for a long time. and about the day of the 91st year, in general about the days of kravchuk, about the resignation of kravchuk, but the key story is when kuchma appeared, i would also like to just say that in the present day, the day of independence, so kuchma was essentially one of the creators of what was called the ukrainian sovereign state bureaucratic apparatus, i.e. he passed a law on the civil service, he began to write out so-called ranks for officials, he began to build good, bad for his own benefit and so on, well, but special services, that is, he tried to create his own

ukrainian kazakhstan, that's how we formulate this matter, where he managed to the end we maybe we don’t understand, but maybe, well, it was the same kuchma who managed to stop the russian appetites, of course not him, but horbulin, marchuk and so on, that is, to stop the russian creeping expansion to the south, first of all it is about crimea, but not only about crimea, then ... then he somehow managed to block this story like this, kuchma, he is still alive, so he is a dark, angel, light angel, or just a modest director, burdened with colossal powers, colossal responsibility, covered by agents, for example, well if we we are talking about the old dea, about the old rascal and so on, the father, and so and so who found out that he was an agent, working as a deputy of the verkhovna rada and so on and so on, that is... he was taxed, but he tried to build , maybe autocratic, but

ukraine, so maybe he hoped to rule forever until 2030, for example, i'm not sure that he hoped to rule forever, to be honest, but he was going to continue his rule there at some point, and i can in our, this is not a two-minute answer, we will have a break in literally two minutes, but before this break, i have to say that i was really watching my share. leonid kuchma, because i met leonid kuchma, just, i think, there a couple of days after leonid kuchmo was appointed the prime minister of ukraine, and here it must be said that leonid kuchma was needed by leonid kravchuk, simply because that leonid kravchuk, precisely because he was a party ideologue, he did not understand anything about economics at all, just like gorbachev, he did not understand economics at all, and he, the only thing that he understood at the time of kuchma's appointment. the fact that the first prime minister of already independent ukraine , vytold fokin, also does not

understand anything in the new economy, and by the way, when vytold fokin appeared again on the political arena as masha fokina's grandfather, that's right , that's right a member of this delegation at the negotiations, at the negotiations in minsk, we saw that he was a completely soviet person who remained soviet, imagine what he was like in 1991-93. he was such a soviet official-intellectual who loved read books, talk about culture, but , unfortunately, he had absolutely no knowledge of the economy as such, that is, the modern economy, let's say the gaidar-chuys economy, with which he had to live, and leonid kravchuk at some point came to the conclusion that he needs someone who is able to organize a reformist government that will not give in to russian ambitions, because there was a belligerence that russia would... take the ukrainian economy to shreds. we will now take a break for just a few minutes and

then we will continue about kuchma. more joints so piercing, it does not allow to move. i bought dolgit yellow cream at the pharmacy. he saves me from the pain of rheumatism. dolgit - the only yellow cream for joint and back pain. there are discounts until independence day on normoven tablets, 10% in psyllanyk, bam and oskad pharmacies. red bull-salzburg, dynamo, kyiv, only for megogo, for kona a place in the champions league, and the kyivans will prove that they are worth it, cheer on august 27 at 10:00 p.m. zero exclusively on megogo there are discounts until independence day on eden 25% in pharmacies plantain bam and savings there are discounts until independence day on essential forte m 10% in pharmacies psylansky, bam and oskad. do you suffer from heartburn? i recommend izoto. isota interacts with the acid in the stomach, which leads to a reduction in heartburn symptoms. izota is your water if

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years of our lives through the personal stories of extraordinary ukrainians. public activist. and roman ratushny, journalist and military servicewoman tetyana chornovol, founder of the yangola taira unit yulia paevska, writer svitlana povalyaeva, about how we have changed, what lessons we have learned and what we will never forget in the 10 years of war tape. exclusively, on the espresso tv channel. the verkhovna rada regularly passes new laws, but how do these changes affect our lives? we have analyzed the new resolutions to inform you. about the latest changes in ukrainian legislation, how legislative norms change our lives, what to prepare for, these and other questions that concern ukrainians will be answered by the leading lawyers of the aktum bar association. watch every tuesday at 7:55 in the legal expertise program on the espresso tv channel.

watch at 9 p.m. news, summaries of the week. returning home, 115 ukrainians were freed from russian captivity. ukrainian troops are expanding the bridgehead in the kursk region, residents there are blaming the russian authorities for everything. exclusive report from kurshchyna bright people in dark times, the story of a physical therapist who rehabilitates the wounded and a volunteer who, in her eight years, assembled 10 drones for the military, all this and much more at 21 on espresso. like, we continue the saturday polyclub on the espresso tv channel. atin borkovskyi, vitaly portnikov, we are talking about the foundation of the foundation of our ukrainian independence in various political and not only political dimensions, an extremely informative conversation,

just a couple of minutes ago vitaly told well, literally secrets, yes, that is, well, that means kuchma became the prime minister. it was implied that kuchma would become yegor gaidar's partner and the first, and kuchma knew about it, he was ready, of course, and gaidar knew about it, gaidar, i would say, was very, very skeptical of vitold, i once met with gaidar and with the heads of the administration of the president of russia sergei filatov and vitold fokin at... and gaidar said so skeptically that the current leaders of ukraine are not capable of carrying out any real reforms, and we need someone with whom we can will talk specifically about reforms, they could not talk about reforms with fokkin. fokin is the former head of the state plan of the ukrainian ssr. for gaidar, this was already a characteristic. he simply understood that this person was not from the post-soviet soviet economy. and kuchva

is the director of the plant. a completely different person. but what actually happened? kuchma was supposed to become yehor gaidar's partner, but he became viktor chornomrydan's partner, because during this time gaidar left his post, acting as the head of the government of the russian federation, and viktor became the head of the government of the russian federation chernobirdin, and there suddenly incredible prospects opened up for leonid kuchm, he and viktor chernomyrov are just the same, this director, this director, this one is married to a russian woman, this one is married to a ukrainian woman, that is, in fact, such soviet directors. this one respects this one, this one respects that one, they quickly got along, chornomyrden opened kuchma's door to boris yeltsin, and everything was clear there too, yeltsin really could... withstand a long feast, leonid kravchuk was a complete stranger to him, that's all , that yeltsin loved, hunting there, vodka, sauna, that's all, well, kravchuk was

different, he was a party ideologue, he could have been a partner of oleksandr yakovlev, let's say, gorbachev's advisor, and kuchma and yeltsin could afford to solve global issues in this way, of course, there it was very important to be able to drink as much as the host drinks and not. er, not to fall face down under the table, and by the way, i have to say that i, not being the prime minister of ukraine, but of course a journalist, i trained, because that's when i took, let's say, an interview with islam karimova, it was a bottle cognac for one person, and you can imagine that you are sitting opposite the president of the country and you , the problem here is not that you will fall on your face, but the problem is that you can say what... say what you will be about then years of regret, if it is possible to regret, that is , it was such control, which, by the way, weaned me from alcohol, because i stopped getting drunk, it was just such a psychological

shock that after all these interviews, i already after i haven't used alcohol in years because i know it doesn't affect me, i'm just it's the appearance of alcohol, i have to be like, how headstrong this soldier is, but kuchma could still relax with yeltsin from chornobya. and they quickly saw that this is a much better figure than, say, leonid kravchuk, who began to build a kind of sovereign ukraine there, who, from their point of view, simply led them around the finger, because he began to introduce his own currency, build his own army, left from the unified command of the cis, did a lot of things that they did not agree on in the bialowieza pushcha, that is, he began to build a real state, they did not want it. neither yeltsin nor chornomyrdan, they wanted this union of countries, and that is why they decided to support leonid kuchma, when it was 1994, kuchma was at that moment the head

of the ukrainian union of entrepreneurs and industrialists, kravchuk never found a prime minister - a minister who could be a reformer, at that time the head of the ukrainian government was vitaly masol, the last prime minister of soviet ukraine, but kravchuk led these economists astray. it was absolute nonsense, that is, to appoint masol after kuchma an absolute disaster, if kravchuk had thought on a large scale, economically, he had a whole, i would say, wagon of reformers, but why was there no force scenario, well, why was there no force scenario, so we understand what from what side, from the russian side , why didn't they do what they did against georgia, for example, so we understand that they saw a perspective in the fact that... it is possible to negotiate with those pro-communist or neo-communist elites, well, because there, for example, kuchma was the boss, and it was easier to negotiate with him, are they not

were ready to fight such a large system, well, one thing is not like georgia, it is smaller, there one thing is to support civil wars in central asia, and the other is whether there is moldova with transnistria, yes, and the second thing is an open force scenario , which they went to in 2014, and why aren't they ready? they were preparing, in georgia they were not fighting with georgia, they were fighting for control over abkhazia, south ossetia, in ukraine they needed crimea and the black sea fleet, and they were preparing, the election of mishkov was in preparation for a military scenario, mishkov appointed yevhen saburovo, a citizen of russia, as the prime minister of crimea. myshkov appointed viktor minin, a citizen of russia, a person connected to the special services and apparently trained specifically for the force scenario, as the head of the administration. crimea, i have known viktor vinin since 1988, he was a people's deputy of the ussr from the komsomol, he had nothing to do with ukraine and crimea, so when i saw him in the administration

of the president of crimea, i immediately understood what it was all about, that is, they were preparing this scenario secession of crimea, what happened in 2000 14 14, back in 1992, but they did not go for it. because they decided that they were getting ukraine, they acted in parallel: on the one hand, they were preparing the secession of crimea, on the other hand, they were preparing the overthrow of leonid kravchuk. kravchuk went to early presidential and parliamentary elections. if he had won the presidential elections, i think that after these elections, the secession of crimea would take place. but he lost the election. i've seen it with my own eyes, enough. a scene for me, in the day when it became known that kravchuk lost the presidential elections of ukraine, i was at the reception that

the then ambassador france in kyiv gave in the ukrainian house, and it was supposed to be an acceptance that, from the point of view of kravchuk's team , celebrated his re-election for a second term, but it turned out that it was an acceptance of kravchuk's defeat, and for this acceptance, for the first time , in fact, in an official capacity , the entourage of the new of ukrainian president leonid kuchma, i.e. dmytro tabachnyk and some of his followers, we all understand. but strangely enough, viktor was at this reception minin, the head of president mishkov's administration, so viktor minin communicated with dmytro tabachnyk as a subordinate, since i knew both of them, yes, and viktor minyan was generally my, let's say, a good friend at the time, i was the first journalist who took

he is an interview of a people's deputy of the soviet union, yes... don't you forget, how do you understand when you are a young person, tominin did not hide from me that he is absolutely, that is , someone there conditionally speaking, i say conditionally, well, but someone there minin was already ready to cut tasks in the right hand of whom, the ukrainian president, of course, i cut, i was at kuchma's presentation of the certificate of the president of ukraine, minin was the main figure there , antabachnik, and i will also remind you of the people who were in kuchma's headquarters. this time, this is konstantin zatulin, ugh, the head of the institute of cis countries, a people's deputy of the russian federation, this is vyacheslav egrunov, also a supporter of such an imperial democratic russia, a people's deputy of the russian federation, kuchma's biggest ally among russian politicians, apart from chornomiroval of the russian union of entrepreneurs and of industrialists arkady volskyi, also a person connected with the special services, the former commandant

of... karabakh and these people were quite serious about it, they were about the idea of ​​restoring the joint industrial complex of ukraine and russia, it was the idea of ​​kuchma and volskyi, and when i wrote an article in moscow and kyiv that this is impossible because the ties are broken, because the market economy, because this simply cannot happen anymore, then both kuchma and volsky made statements in which they said that i was an agent there unknown who a ukrainian nationalist, and that i am undermining. stability and friendship of the two peoples, i remember it well, it was a joint conference dedicated to my humble person, that is the key issue, that is, they having their appointed people to the highest political office, who had a direct influence on the first persons of the state, and this concerns not only of ukraine, but of our environment, that is, we are also talking about belarus and, ultimately, we are talking about russia, and lukashenko on the day that kuchma won the elections, that is the key story, why did they not start those or

other preparations. or a process that would end, for example, with the introduction of russian occupiers, for example, into certain settlements, or crimea, or the deployment of certain solo things, well, look, they sincerely believed that they and kuchma would agree on everything, and therefore began to prepare this great contract. kuchma, when he entered the office of the president of ukraine, he was, and he is, he is a very intelligent person, i would say so, dangerous, i would never, i would not wish anyone to be an enemy on... yes, kuchma from the point of view his sight in general reactions to the fact that he, how he generally treats his enemies, but very intelligent, clever, clever, well, after all, this is the director of a huge defense plant, he has a manner, it still exists, so to speak, to pretend , that he is a simpleton, yes, but he was never one in his life, he simply successfully or unsuccessfully in different periods of his life played in this favorite ukrainian political way

of fooling around. and everyone thought very often that it was a pure coin. i remember when leonid kuchma first came to this the hotel of the former central committee of the cpsu in moscow, as the prime minister of ukraine. and he comes and there is this group of journalists who run to him with a microphone, and here lenylovych looks at them, says: listen, where is your toilet here, says leni danylovych. and everyone tells me: oh, you have such a prime minister? and i already talked to him, i know that he is not such a prime minister, i just understand. that he didn't want to answer any questions and he decided to show them that he is like that, well i'm like that, i'm like that, he's not like that, it's a huge the problem of all people who communicated with kuchma is to think that he is like that, he is not like that, and this, by the way, is the problem of tabachnyk, to think that he is like that, but then, in addition to tabachnyk, there was also medvedchuk, yes, but still kuchmi somehow managed to slip out of full control, but i don't know if he wanted to appoint and you see.