in moscow. smirnov told me that lukyanov required them to be ready at the end of the summer, because at the end of the summer a normal constitutional order would be established in the russian federation in the soviet union, in general, that there would be no such union treaty, which strengthens the position of the nationalists, and that, in principle, at the end of the summer , stability will be restored, and they should be vanguard stability, by the way, the leadership of the so-called... pmr, it supported the gkchchp, please, a few hours after beginning, but the president of the soviet union , mikhail gorbachev, came to this meeting for a few minutes, he was there, in principle, as was typical for him, he did not say anything specific, but he demonstrated by his presence that he knew about , what does anatolii lukyanovich do, what about the very meeting of the president of the soviet union with the heads of... organizations whose very existence

contradicted the ussr constitution. well, in the case of transnistria, for sure, it was simply the teraspil district with several other districts of moldova. it says a lot. and therefore, after that, i always had questions about what it actually was. and to what extent the entire leadership of the soviet union, led by mikhail gorbachev, was ready to sign the co-union treaty with... the leaders of the union republics, that is, how isolated or self-removed gorbachev was at this moment, to see how far his associates could restore this pseudo-stability, in the end simply , so that we close this extremely, in principle , fundamental moment, yes, but one of many, yes, when we talk about the role ukrainian elites, so we understand that apart from the street, apart from the ukrainians on the streets, apart from our population and in general, well, the desire...

to get this or that sovereign status, there were also ukrainian communists, there was, for example, the ukrainian or soviet kgbist, general marchuk, deceased, yes, well, he did not head the kgb, the kb was headed by general galushka, no, he headed then, it seems, the fifth department, no longer, he was the deputy head of the kgb of the ukrainian ssr, it seems that he no longer headed the fifth department, if kravchuk and so on, that is, it was and it was difficult, in the end, that is, it was low the figures of the communist system, yes, but who basically, as far as we understand, they wanted to create a certain model, which model they wanted to create, now i named a few names, each of these people had different ideas about what might happen next, i can to say this absolutely clearly, because i discussed this model with each of them, that is, the concept of kravchuk, marchuk, or ivazhko, that is, they did not agree, the concepts, i took marchuk out of parentheses here, because he started.

actively participate in these events after the declaration of independence, at the time of the declaration of independence , general holoshka was undoubtedly the head of the committee, and only with his departure did general marchuk have real opportunities for real participation in the political life of such people, and i would like to remind you that even after the declaration of independence, there was an attempt by leonida kryvchuk to send to the new security service of ukraine, a civilian politician, he proposed a receiver for this position. senior, not morchuk at the beginning, simply the verkhovna rada of ukraine did not agree with this candidacy, so there also had their troubles, but if we talk about these main people in reality, here is volodymyr yavashko, the first secretary of the party of ukraine, chairman of the verkhovna rada of ukraine, leonid kravchuk, the second secretary of the party of ukraine after the resignation of ivashka and the chairman of the verkhovna rada of ukraine and stanislav gurenko , the first chairman of the party of ukraine after the resignation is difficult, so these were three different approaches, absolutely polar. so, ivazhko's approach

was gorbachev's approach, ivazhko owed everything to gorbachev, he was the stake of the ukrainian party after the resignation of volodymyr shcherbytsky, it is simply impossible to imagine the weight of these people. shcherbytskyi was a person who applied for the post of general secretary of the cpsu, one of the main associates of leonid brezhnyi, and was hardly a person who was not known even in the ukrainian party operations, his main position in the ukrainian party operation was the secretary of the kharkiv regional party committee, one of... then he was sent to work in afghanistan. a few months before his appointment as the head of soviet ukraine. gorbachev also sent it to several places the first secretary of the dnipropetrovsk party, but this too was absolutely a position that did not match his weight. and it was difficult to simply be an obedient executor of gorbachev's will. gorbachev needed him for one reason. gorbachev realized that he could not rely on the created model of the alliance treaty. russia, this is generally, imagine,

ugh, actually the head of russia, but you cannot rely on russia, because in russia there are other leaders, this is a typical dual power, tsar ion and the tsar. yes, putin and beslan, well, ukrainians go to kursk and putin goes to beslan and to the caucasus, well roughly so, he decided that the main support of moscow would be soviet ukraine, and this soviet ukraine should be led by a loyal, obedient person, and he failed this mission completely, because he could not work with the ukrainian party apparatus, ukrainian party officials, who made up the majority in the parliament, they considered him an absolute upstart. ugu, that is why it was difficult, gladly agreed to be elected deputy general secretary of the central committee of the cpsu a few months after he was elected chairman verkhovna rada of ukraine. it was a fiasco for the ukrainian communists, they were in awe, but also difficult, i spoke with him, after his election as the deputy general secretary of the central committee

of the cpsu, i spoke publicly, it was an interview that was printed, and he spoke about the leadership of the communist party of ukraine with open hatred. as for people who did not live up to his expectations at all, he did not hide at all that his main desire was to leave ukraine, that is, this mutual antipathy was absolutely obvious, which means that vashko was also a representative of the moscow, if you will, party school, who simply saw ukraine as a support for moscow, for gorbachev's moscow, moscow, he was not the only one like that, another such person was the last head of the administration of president sovietsky. so, it was one such group of people, the gorbachevs, who wanted ukraine to occupy a prominent place in the renewed union. next was stanislav gurenko. stanislav gurenko was also not going to fight for the independence of ukraine.

his idea was completely different. he was going to head the cpsu. he wasn't going to be in executor of mikhail gorbachev's will. he. believed that he would be able to take revenge, which volodymyr shcherbytsky did not take, that he would be able to stop all these pseudo-reforms, and he believed in principle that if it was possible to get rid of gorbachev, he would be the next candidate for the position of general secretary of the central committee of the cpsu. this was obvious at the last congress of the cpsu. grurenko was the favorite of this party, for which it feared gorbachev, but hated him and despised vazhko, as deputy general secretary of the central committee. all the people who were in gorbachev's orbit are from yehor ligachev, who was the head of the conservatives, to oleksandr yakovlev, who was the head of the liberals, were not perceived by these people. if you imagine that the putsch would have come out, well, i'm sure that at the next

extraordinary congress of the cpsu, stanislav gurenko would have been elected general secretary of the party's central committee. and ukraine would become a real tool. the collapse of reforms, because there was practically no restructuring in ukraine, it began only after the election of yevashko and at a very slow pace, which means that it was a different concept, therefore gurenko with incredible enthusiastically accepted pucci, supported him fully, together with varennikov came to kravchuk, and after pucci continued to fight, literally, i was at his press conference on the 25th. it seems that on august 24, when they were already burning the documents, and he was saying that the communist party of ukraine would still remain the main, driving force in our country, when i started laughing , you are somewhere on a chair, he started shouting at me: vitaly, stop this laughter, let's see which

of us will laugh last, i tell him no, stanislav, i will laugh last, not you, it's just the age difference, what are you making up, that is, i was sure. that he failed, but he was one step away from power in the soviet union. just at one time iryna kalynets, a well-known iconic ukrainian dissident, yes, the wife of the iconic ukrainian, ukrainian poet ihor kalynets, she once told me that, unfortunately, we , the communists then gave away the tribune, not the government, that is, the communists went to shadow and in the shadow government, when we talk about apparatuses, in business, in banks. and so on, well, like egurenka, he became a big businessman, to things he was doing at that time, well, he had some financial assets, then he became the head of the economy committee of the verkhovna rada, but he did not go anywhere, he was simply not in that weight anymore, but he had a business, he was quite serious a player at his level, not

at this level, i say again, this story undermined him, because he wanted more, for him ukraine, as for ivazhko, was not something self-sufficient, these people did not lose power in ukraine, they lost the country. which they wanted to rule, well, now the third position is kravchuk. kravchuk led the sovereign communists, who had few people who were ready. to ukrainian independence under their own authority, for whom ukraine was an end in itself, and by the way, again, i learned about this in 1900 89 or 90, or when kravchuk was arguing with rukhivtsi, i went to see him at the central committee of the communist party of ukraine the secretary of the central committee of the communist party of ukraine for ideology and already a member of the politburo of the central committee of the cpsu, it seems to me to be the central committee of the communist party of ukraine, and in this interview i asked him how he feels about... an independent of the communist party of lithuania and to the position of algert brazaovski, its leader, who led the communist party of

lithuania out of the cpsu. and leonid makarovich, in his characteristic manner, asked why i am asking this question. what audience will read it. i told him that it was exclusively for audiences of foreign journalists. and they are simply interested in his position. i wouldn't get bored if he still reformulated there according to the old zeki rules of some kind, for what purpose to be interested? no, no, it was exactly like that. what audience will see it, i told him to the foreigner, well it was true, i was doing an interview for a foreign correspondent audience, it was like that in the first months of the interfax agency, which then worked exclusively for a foreign audience, well, how could they not see his materials and materials in the soviet union itself, it seems to me that this interview is not even in any other language , except that it was not published in english, leonid kravchuk tells me here too, i... believe that the position of algert sabrazavskyi is the only possible position in this situation, in which the lithuanian

communists found themselves and fully share this position, i i look at him, yes, well, he knew that i was already working in youth ukraine, i was a supporter of the movement and so on, and he, i tell him, i think we will work with leonid makarovich, and he told me he says, and don't doubt it, it was an exchange of remarks, we didn't return to it again, then an extraordinary conversation, changes followed. glasnost perestroika, well, karabchuk, as a party ideologue, could talk about it for 5 hours, but it no longer mattered, i looked at him, everything became clear to me, everything became clear, and between us there was such a moment when, i believe, it was a decisive moment in the future, and in my career as well, at the last congress of the cpsu. i don't remember if i talked about it, but i will tell you that we got to those moments. volodymyr ivashko accepted the position

of deputy general secretary of the central committee of the cpsu without even informing his comrades on the central committee of the party. interesting. mykhailo horvachev met with him, said that it was necessary to stop ligachev, that he had such an assignment and accepted this candidacy with great relief, but he was so hated that he you'. when i met him on the sidelines and he told me that he was davis gorbachev and that he would run for the position of deputy general secretary of the central committee of the cpsu. well, i was, how old was i? 24 or 25, and why didn't you join the communist party then in order to destroy it from the inside, well, this is trolling, and we understand that there were people who tried to make a joint career with the communists even at that time, i don't i want to name the names of these people, but they, well, they were, this is wildness, because then, in that time a time when everyone... put in party tickets, there were those who hoped to invade the communists, well, first of all, i did not

hope, and secondly, i believed that, taking into account my political views, what i communicated there with academician andrii sakhara, with vyacheslav chornovol, with mykhailo horyn, when they left the camps, that it would be simply immoral, well, i joined the komsomol when i was in school, well, okay, but in adulthood they tried to join the communist party drag it there, i said with relief... who told me, and what you didn't write a statement to the party, i said: oh, i'm not writing anything, but you know, i have jewish origin, well, somehow you calmed down, you didn't touch me anymore, because somehow even then it was believed that the communist party didn't need too many jews, well, thanks to this origin, it was possible to get away from all these pressures, because when a member of the politburo of the cpsu tells you why you don't write a statement to the party, it's somehow difficult to say, you know, i'm an anti-communist, i wanted you to be hanged here. to someone, well, i didn't want them to be hanged, they were members of the politburo, who were not like that, not

hooligans, but just ordinary officials, but i definitely did not want to be in the same organization with them, never, but, so, when ivazhka told me this, i mean in such youthful enthusiasm that i know something that no one knows, well that is, we know, we know the three, gorbachev, vazhko and i, you can imagine what an incredible epiphany, i ran to stanislav gurenko, with whom i was on good terms, or on absolutely, i would say, diametrically opposed political views, and i told him : stanislav ivanovich, and volodymyr antonovych will run for office. deputy general secretary of the central committee of the cpsu. stanislav ivanovych says, he turned white. well, because he understood what it means when the head of the verkhovna rada of ukraine flees ukraine a few months after being elected. ugh. and also on the day, on the days when the verkhovna rada of ukraine discussed the declaration of ukraine's sovereignty. the congress of the cpsu and this session took place

at the same time. during the congress of the cpsu, the verkhovna rada of ukraine approved the declaration. about the state sovereignty of ukraine in the absence of all party leaders, they were at the party congress, so i tell him, stanislav ivanovich, will you run for the post of chairman of the verkhovna rada? well, this is a logical question, and he tells me: one has already run for office, and what happened? i believe that i should stay with the party, fulfill my duties as the first secretary of the central committee, we spoke with you after my... election before the mtsk, you were the first journalist i spoke with, and i promised that i would lead the communist party of ukraine, i will not run for office, and you will at least go to kyiv in such a situation, he says, how can i go to kyiv, there is a congress of the communist party in moscow, how can i leave congress, i'm a communist, you don't understand, you don't understand, you're not a communist, well, i think,

well, if you're such an idiot, i'm sorry, then i moved on, i moved on and met a few minutes later, well firstly, volodymyr antonovych will be the deputy of the general central committee of the cpsu, he is leaving ukraine. leonid makarovich did not turn white, but reddened, i would say, from enthusiasm so certain. so i tell him, you know, such an unfortunate situation, he says yes, an unfortunate situation. the situation for the party, he was second at the time, this is a problem, and you know, i say, leonid makarovich, a stanislav ivanovich gurenko, will not run for the position of chairman of the verkhovna rada of ukraine, he tells me, how do you know, they did not talk, they had such a relationship, they did not communicate, gurenko and gravchuk, by the way, the first and

second did not communicate , there was practically a lot of communication, how do you know, well, i saw him a few minutes ago, i asked him if he was... going to kyiv, or will he be swamped? well, so this is his decision, he wants to stay in the party, he is a communist, vitaly, you are not a communist, you don't understand, it begins all this baloney, you're not a communist, i'll say, lenin mikayovich, maybe you'll go to kyiv, leonid makarovich says to kyiv, you're not a communist, vitaly, how can a communist leave the party congress, well, that's all, i left and ran away from stanislav ivanovich, who told me everything was correct and remained at the congress . it seems to me that leonid makarovich flew to kyiv the very next day and was elected chairman of the verkhovna rada of ukraine, and if stanislav gurenko was elected chairman of the verkhovna rada of ukraine? imagine this situation: august 24 in 1991, in the chair of the chairman of the verkhovna rada of ukraine, not leonid koravchuk, but stanislav

horenka, i am not sure that we would have adopted the act of independence, that he would have appeared at all. and there would be a confrontation, there would be a struggle, moscow would try to promote gurenko, yeltsin would hardly want gurenko to remain at the head of ukraine, because he would believe that gurenko would claim some higher positions in moscow, that is, there could be anything, and that day when i was running between the three of them to find out how it would end, and i i hope that i told leonid makarovich the right way, the vector of movement is... i believe that it was just a stellar time, but in any case it was you who described very specific manifestations of what is called a political miracle, was it political will or the sovereign will of the ukrainian people, it is extremely important, yes, but a lot of things could depend on some personnel decisions, personnel appointments, well, look what an illustration, mykhailo gorbachev demanded from the first sectarians of the central committee

of the party of the union republics that they run for the post of president or heads verkhovna rada. and left the posts of first secretaries of the central committee of the union republics, how many people do you think fulfilled this assignment of his, no one? no, one, volodymyr yavashko. ugh. he was the first member of the central committee, he was elected chairman of the verkhovna rada, and he resigned as the first member of the central committee. i generally thought it was complete hardware idiocy. nazarbayev, karimov, niyazov, all remained in their positions as party leaders, because there was real power, vertical. and it is difficult. gave this vertical to gurenko and as a result everything was like this, and look, here are the first elections, the second elections and so on, for example, the change of a whole day, yes, well, we can talk for a long time about the day of the 91st year, in general, about the day. kravchuk, about the resignation of kravchuk, but the key story, when kuchma appeared, i would also like to just say that in the current, well, day, the day of independence, yes,

kuchma was essentially one of the creators of what was called the ukrainian sovereign state bureaucratic apparatus, that is, he passed a law on the civil service, he began to prescribe so-called ranks to officials, he began to build good and bad for his own benefit, and so on further, well, but the special services. that is, he tried to create his own ukrainian kazakhstan, this is how we will formulate this case, we may not understand what he succeeded to the end, but perhaps it was kuchma himself who managed to stop russian appetites, of course not him, but horbulin, marchuk and so on. i.e. to stop the russian creeping expansion to the south, first of all we are talking about crimea, but not only about crimea, i.e. it was somehow possible to block this story... burdened with colossal powers, colossal responsibility,

taxed by agents, for example, well, if we are talking about the old man, about old derkach, and so on, the father, who found out that he was an agent while working as a member of the verkhovna rada , and so on and so forth, that is, he was taxed, but he tried. maybe an autocratic one, but ukraine, so maybe he hoped to rule forever until 2030, for example, i'm not sure that he hoped to rule forever, to be honest, but he was going to continue his rule there at some point, i can have , this is not a two-minute one answer, we will have a break in literally two minutes, but before this break i have to say that i really followed the appearance of leonid kuchma. because i met leonid kuchmo, just, i think, there a couple of days after leonid kuchmo was appointed the prime minister of ukraine, and here

it must be said that leonid kuchmo was needed by leonid kravchuk simply because leonid kravchuk because he was a party ideologue, he didn't understand anything about economics at all, just like gorbachev, well, he didn't understand economics at all, and he, the only thing he realized at the time of kuchma's appointment that the first prime minister was already independent. ukraine's vytold fokin does not understand anything in the new economy either, and by the way, when vytold fokin appeared again on the political scene as masha fokina's grandfather, that's right, that 's right, that's right, a member of this delegation in the negotiations in khminsk, we saw that it was completely soviet a person who remained soviet, imagine what he was like in 1900 there in 91-93, he was such a soviet intellectual official who... he liked to read books, talk about culture, but unfortunately ,

he had absolutely no command of economics as such, that is, modern economics, economics, let’s say gaidar-chuysian, with which he had to live, and leonid kravchuk at some point came to the conclusion that he needs someone who is able to organize a reformist government that will not give in to russian ambitions, because there was a presumption that russia would take over the ukrainian economy altogether. now let's break literally for a few minutes and then talk about kuchmo let's just continue. when you sleep on an uneven surface, the spine takes the wrong position, because you cannot feel energetic in the morning and productive in the afternoon, and with the mattrik stopper you will forget that you are sleeping on an imperfect surface. order a mattrik topper for a comfortable sleep at an affordable price. more and more ukrainian families are choosing. which comes in a convenient packaging that is easy enough to remove. within a day after removing the factory film, it can be used. a unique cover in which you

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square meters of damaged property, apartments, houses that need to be rebuilt, about the situation with reconstruction in different regions of ukraine, about people's rights, opportunities and personal experience. this is what olga's house looked like last year, and this is what it looks like now. i'm not spending money at the moment. about how to unite the country in the process of recovery in the project. urban reconstruction and development program, every saturday at 18:30 at espresso. the verkhovna rada regularly adopts new laws. but how do these changes affect our lives? we have analyzed the new resolutions to inform you about the latest changes in ukrainian legislation. how do legislative norms change our lives, what should we prepare for? leading lawyers of the aktum bar association will answer these and other questions that concern ukrainians.

watch every tuesday at 7:55 in the legal expertise program on the espresso tv channel. two hours to learn about the war and how the world lives. two hours to keep up with economic and sports news. two hours in the company of favorite presenters, presenters who have become like relatives to many, as well as distinguished guests of the studio. events of the day in two hours. vasyl zima's big broadcast, a project for smart and caring people, in the evening at espresso. we continue the saturday polyclub on the espresso tv channel, atsin borkovskyi, vitaly portnikov, we talk about the foundation, about the foundations of our ukrainian independence in various political and not only political dimensions, an extremely informative conversation, just a couple of minutes ago vitaliy told, well, literally secrets,

yes, that is well... so kuchma became prime minister, from here it is also an interesting moment when kravchuk appointed him prime minister, it was implied that kuchma will become yegor gaidar's partner, and the first, and kuchma knew about it, he was ready, of course, he is a moydar, and gaidar knew about it, gaidar, i would say, was very, very skeptical of vitold fukin, i once met together with gaidar and with the heads of the administration of the president of russia, sergei filatov. and gaidar said so skeptically that the current leaders of ukraine are not capable of carrying out any real reforms, and we need someone with whom we can talk precisely about reforms, with fokkin they talk about reforms could not fokin is the former head of the state plan of the ukrainian ssr. for gaidar, this was already a characteristic. he simply understood that this is a person not of the post-soviet, but of the soviet economy, and kuchma is the director of the plant, a completely different person, but... what

happened in general: kuchma was supposed to become a partner of yegor gaidar, but became a partner of viktor chornomrydan, because during this time gaidar left his post, acting as the head of the government of the russian federation, and viktor chornomyrdin became the head of the government of the russian federation, and suddenly there were opportunities for leonid kuchm incredible prospects, they and viktor chernomer are simply the same, this director, this director, this one is married to a russian woman, this one is married to a ukrainian woman, that is, in fact. such soviet directors, this one respects this one, this one respects that one, they quickly got along, chornomyrden opened kuchma’s door to boris yeltsin, and everything was clear there too, yeltsin really could withstand a long feast, leonid kravchuk was a complete stranger to him , that’s all , that yeltsin loved, hunting there, ho...