presenters, presenters who have become like family to many, as well as distinguished guests of the studio. events of the day in two hours. vasyl zima's big broadcast, a project for smart and caring people. espresso in the evening. dear friends, we are coming back, this is our final hour, lesya vakulyuk, andriy saichuk, we are starting this hour, we will now talk about religion. the pope spoke about the law signed by president zelensky, and it was finally voted on. in the parliament about the banning of the russian orthodox church in ukraine says: no church can be touched what is interesting with the roman pope, if diana panchenko, if you remember, agrees at the same time, such a propagandist, host of the medvedchuk channels, who wrote that the ban of the ukrainian orthodox church, and she also connected this with the arrest of pavlo durv, that this is a link in the same chain and he says that this whole event is bad, he is trying to take under totalitarian, under totalitarian... control,

so to speak, all the information, one of our viewers from the occupied territories wrote to me here, he says: youtube does not work, google is impossible for him to use, whatsapp doesn't work, and the only thing that works is telegram, amazingly close, that's how it is, in a word, how did the pope mean it, to andrii kovalev, candidate of political sciences and religious scholar, we ask, is he already in touch with us dear, mr. andriy, i congratulate you, glory to ukraine, friends, glory to the heroes, here is such fresh news from the pope. do you agree with him that the church should not be touched? lesya, maybe the church cannot be touched, but when it is a quasi-religious organization with a religious center, in the country of the aggressors, and which has signs of a totalitarian sect, well then it cannot be called a church, then it is really needed so that the state applies its monopoly right to coercion. and if the parliament made

such a decision, then this quasi-religious organization is obliged to comply with this law. as for the pope, i would like to remind you that he is not only a religious leader, he is also a state leader, he heads a state called the vatican, therefore all the statements of the pope , they come solely from the state interest, the vatican state, if the vatican state for such a decision decides to criticize the laws of... a sovereign state, they express this question, so we simply have to treat the statements of pope francis bergoglio, by the way, when we analyze his statements like that, we just have to remember the past, the pope 's back, remember that the pope was once a very active member of communist organizations that were financed. from

the soviet union, the pope still has a certain piety towards russia, because once russia, respectively the soviet union, were close to him and to his beliefs, and in principle he still has somewhat romantic ideas about russia, well, again, now he, as a pontiff, as a religious leader, as a state leader, makes statements based on the interest, not the state interest of the vatican, the vatican has a state . interest in maintaining good relations with russia, even though it is a terrorist state, an aggressor state, but still maintain such good relations, especially since in 2016, let me remind you, the pope together with patriarch kirill gundyaev at the havana airport in cuba signed a peculiar the molotov ribbentrop religious pact, the non-aggression pact called the havana pact.

declaration, so this havana declaration is an absolutely ukrainophobic document, absolutely, well, on the one hand, it is a loss of ukrainian diplomacy that, in principle , the signing of such a declaration became possible, and there, well, the provisions of this havana declaration, they are still the roman catholic church and the vatican were not reviewed, well , among other things, russian aggression in ukraine is called from the point of view of... the roman catholic church, an internal ukrainian crisis, for example, the ukrainian greek-catholic church in this havana declaration is called a failed experiment, because what remains to be said here is exclusively the political interest of the vatican state, which is expressed by the head of this state, well, this experiment is not really finished yet, let's say so, but the fact that he i didn't succeed there, i don't know, in the 17th century, 16... from

the vatican, but from constantinople, yes, it's not correct to say that. yes , the patriarch of constantinople and in particular, and this, but also archbishop binipetskyi, metropolitan of ukrainian of the orthodox church of canada, metropolitan iov pisitskyi and patriarch deacon epiphany kamianovych, all ukrainians by origin , that's right, they were here, they met with the head of the russian orthodox church onufry, how did this meeting go and... how many are there, what was achieved, i i know that you personally participated in this, in these, in these communications, in no way can i comment, i did not participate in the communications, but i observed the arrival of this delegation, and

in fact, when i am asked how i feel about the adoption of the law , the so-called about the ban of the russian orthodox church, i say that in fact i place much more... hope in the work of this delegation that came to ukraine than in the adoption of this law, because first of all, you know, it is a unique phenomenon: the government knows how to do, you know , the impression of a communication victory, but on thursday the majority of ukrainians got the impression that the entire russian orthodox church was banned, and from today the moscow patriarchate disappeared like dew on the sun, nothing like that. on thursday, no ban took place, only a law was voted the law, then it must be signed by the president, it has already been signed, then it must be published in the newspaper voice of ukraine. after that, in the transitional provisions, the authorities wrote about a nine-month period, that is

, the law will come into effect only after 9 months, and only after 9 months the state service for politics and freedom of conscience will be able to carry out religious examinations of thunder. of the moscow patriarchate in ukraine, let me remind you that there are about 10,000 of them. later, if in some communities in their statutory charter documents a connection with moscow patriarchate, with the russian orthodox church, then such statutory documents will be submitted to the court for deregistration of this religious organization. and here is a very complicated mechanism for deregistration of these religious organizations laid by the authors of the law, which is a government law. put in this law. therefore, i believe in the effectiveness of the work of the commission, or the delegation of the ecumenical patriarch, which is designed to promote the unity of the orthodox, because despite the fact that the moscow patriarchate exists, it is now banned, but millions of ukrainians who

it is a great pity, they are still in this moscow orthodox schism, they will not disappear anywhere, they will continue to remain there, and that is why our calling, and this is... a challenge for the authorities to develop an effective mechanism, how to get these ukrainians out of this moscow schism, because of that , that ecumenical patriarch bartholomew feels his responsibility for ukraine, i want to remind you that in 2016, when the verkhovna rada of ukraine first addressed ecumenical patriarch bartholomew with its appeal, there was a request to provide tomos about the autocephaly of the ukrainian orthodox church, the united church, but at that time... to unite the orthodox around one church, so in the first part, in the granting of the tomos , the ecumenical patriarch fulfilled his obligations, but regarding the unification of the orthodox , then this association, unfortunately, is still ongoing, and we still have a part of ukrainians who are, well, firstly, as

for me, this is my private opinion, in quasi- religious organizations with signs of a totalitarian sect, and on the other hand are in the moscow orthodox schism, and in the same time is needed... that the moscow patriarchate drags its believers into a heretical sect, why is it a heresy? because the answer is very simple: orthodox dogmatics tells us that salvation is possible only through jesus christ and only with jesus christ, and that for 30 years the moscow patriarchate tried to teach its believers in ukraine that salvation is possible only through unity with moscow. well, imagine, they... god was replaced by moscow, that is, it is simply a heretical organization at the moment, with which you need to get these ukrainians, let's say, in the 90s it was already in in the history of ukraine, it is a fact that when there was a totalitarian sect that threatened national security, it was called the "white

brotherhood". they invaded, for example, the territory of the sophia of kyiv reserve, seized the sophia cathedral, i want to remind you, and threatened to commit mass suicide. how did the state behave then? the authorities then made the only correct decision to apply the monopoly right to coercion. the reserve was unlocked. and to many of those people who took part in capturing this reserve. due to the fact that they were influenced by totalitarianism sect, we even had to provide psychiatric help, they had to be treated psychiatrically, and please tell me, now it is real for the authorities, and for society, for all of us , a huge challenge, several million ukrainians remain under the influence of the moscow patriarchate, the moscow split, this totalitarian sect, efforts must be made to get these orthodox from there and finally unite them into a single church, this is at least a... national security request, in fact, it is really a national

security issue, well, briefly about the delegation, the delegation held a meeting with the head of the moscow patriarchate in ukraine, the metropolitan of kyiv, onufriy, also held a meeting with metropolitan epiphanius, conducted a meeting with patriarch filaret, from this we can conclude that, in principle, the ecumenical patriarchate and the patriarch of bartholomew... looks at patriarch filaret as a party to the negotiations regarding the unification of the orthodox in ukraine, and the delegation also had a meeting with the head of the ukrainian catholic church, supreme archbishop sviatoslav shevchuk, which, by the way, is also very important, very such an important sign. currently, i understand that the delegation continues its work in kyiv, i understand that they will go to constantinople in between. report to the ecumenical patriarch, and after that we can already wait for some decisions and

proposals from the ecumenical patriarchate, this crisis opens up some opportunities for the unification of ukrainian orthodoxy and ukrainian churches in general, mr. andriy, thank you very much for this conversation , andriy kovalev, candidate of political sciences, religious scholar was with us, well, we are friends, we thank you, friends, for being with us, stay with us, and andriy saichuk's interview with yaroslav hrytsek , a historian, and thank you for the 307 that you... donated this week, stay with espresso, it will be interesting. sales progress from unpack tv. screw drill pro. compact, light, powerful, will replace a huge number of expensive professional tools. assemble furniture, hang a picture or a shelf, twist almost any. fasteners, repair machinery and cars, and even screw in a self-tapping screw metal profile, but it is not only a screwdriver,

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health, ladies and gentlemen, my name is mykola veresin. sharp presentation of facts and competent opinions. for example, if mykola veresen had done so, he would have gone to prison. a special look at the events in ukraine, so it is not necessary to say that the fish is rotting from the head. no, not off the top of my head. but beyond it. and then who is china? i had a heart. all this in an informational marathon with mykola veresny. saturday 17:10, sunday. 18:15 at espresso. hundreds of thousands of square meters were damaged property apartments, houses that need to be rebuilt. about the situation with recovery in different regions of ukraine. about people's rights, opportunities and personal experience. this is what olga's house looked like last year, and this is what it looks like now. i am not spending money at the moment. about how to unite the country in the process of recovery in the project of the urban reconstruction and development program, every saturday at 18:30 on espresso.

congratulations, this is a special project for independence day, bright people in dark times, my name is andriy saichuk and today the guest of our studio is professor yaroslav rytsak, a historian. sir yaroslav, i congratulate you, i congratulate you, mr. andriy, glory to ukraine, glory to the heroes, 33 years old, you know, this is a symbolic age, ukraine is going through, and we are going through a very difficult time now, we can probably make interim summaries, many... probably could today to say that we could have achieved more, and many are probably amazed today that we are now so capable and strong on the contrary, eh, are you among the optimists, evaluating now these 33 years, could more have been done, i belong of that number, which is called cynical optimists, this term was once said by oleksand

pashvar, i really liked it, i adopted it, i speak as a historian, and you know, the question is what to measure against, then what is the criterion where to compare, and my thesis is very simple: we cannot compare ukraine, let's say, modern poland, or modern france, er, because modern poland, or france, has much longer independence, er, we are a young state, 33 years is youth, still youth, and if we want to come in time for ukraine, it is necessary to accept, say, with poland in 1939, 1942, or with france in 1830, not very important, that is. i say that young states have their own certain laws, certain features, and we are experiencing these features, and in particular, in particular, these features are present, this is the era of revolutionary war, because the old, the old regime is dying very slowly, and insatiability cannot be avoided, i just see us in this day and age, on average, they think it is a very obvious language

assessment that such a transition lasts 50 years, of course, one can understand that now it is conditional, because it can be faster, by the way, it accelerates, but if you look at it from this perspective , if if we compare ukraine, let's say with the same conflict of 39-42, or even with the same france of 1830, then we see that in ukraine the curve is different, the curve is different, because from that part the country has already been lost, gained independence of independence, also very certain features, let's say what is characteristic of young states, they are mostly glued together from pieces, from pieces of different regions, strong regionalism, separatism, political instability, governments change like gloves, presidents are killed, attempts are such, there are coups, corruption, you know, this height, that is, when you look at this perspective, you understand that ukraine is working in this mode, if you are in this mode, then surprisingly, ukraine is quite stable, even incredibly stable, so in that sense i am a price optimist, in fact, we could to say that now the 34th day does not matter,

because we know that in the 90th year independence was already celebrated, i believed that it was an independent state after it was adopted. a little bit wrong, because it was sovereignty, sovereignty by independence, there is a difference after all, because sovereignty implied, that we are part of some larger structure, i do not completely rule out that when we enter the european union, uh, we will lose part of our independence, become sovereign, i am saying this as a scenario, i am not saying that this is necessarily the case should happen, but in the 19th year there was the idea of ​​sovereignty, that is , the maximum possible rights for political culture, but within the framework of the renewed soviet union, it was this... it was a great achievement, but it was still a step, almost not that step, it was almost, you know, miles and miles to go to that independence you like to go on and on about the fact that in order to understand where you will be in 10-20 years, you need to understand where you were 10-20 years ago. is it possible to bypass this historical determinism, or does it mean that we are doomed for a very long time? very slow,

i don't say that, if i say that where, from where to where you will go, it means that where you go depends on where you are, excuse me, where you will go depending on where you came from, i'm not saying, that there is only one road, there are just different paths, it's just that there is another path and the scenario is more possible, the other is less possible, that is, i i repeat again and again, history is not a driver, it does not impose restrictions on us, and it does not deprive us of choice, so i think that the most such moments of crisis in ukraine, ukrainians made the right elections, that is, they voted for independence in 1991, it is very important , in 1994, it was not far off... to collapse, although the chances were or the threat was very high, i remind you, i remind you all the time , that they made such a prediction that ukraine will inevitably collapse, there will be a civil war between the east and the west of ukraine roughly like american names with the north and south of america, the states of america, that 's how the ukrainians presented the crisis of 1996, none of us remembers the cossacks, except for older people like me, this is a constitutional crisis,

and two maidans, because two maidans - these were actually crisis moments, when the existence of ukraine was also discussed, well , the last one is the war of 14, the war of 22, if you know it from that point of view, ukraine, i am repeating myself, is quite a stable structure, and nothing allows for smashing and that's what calls out from the side. and on the other hand and some respect what should we come out of this war with, is this war a nation-building one? and yes and no, you see, what is nation-building, you need to explain to yourself, because we believe that nations are created once and named, yes, and somewhere there you have to come to a certain moment that a nation will be created and will be, well, there is such a primordial such a thesis, i believe that this is my point of view, that nations are created endlessly, there is no such thing, the creation of nations is like riding a bicycle. not usually electronic, not electric, but because where you need to turn the pedals, you need to turn the pedals all the time, if you get tired of pedaling, then you fall off the bike, the same thing, the creation never ends, well

, you can just take different forms, different circumstances, all the others are like that, but here it is, that is, from that point of view, i i believe that what is happening in our country now, in our country, excuse me, i am afraid that i will give you a long lecture, i did not want to give a long lecture, but still, what can i say, that there is such a division, which is repeated very often. that there are two different types of nations and nations of ethnic, united , and historical memory, let's say, as modern poland or hungary, as well as political nations that unite a state with a common loyalty, say great britain, which consists of four structures, or the large states of america, 50 states, or switzerland, so this is a constant debate that is being conducted in the 20th century we constantly have which country suits us better, not in the sense of which one suits us better, but which one will be more effective, that is, which will allow us to gain - independence, and what i am saying now, that this opposition in a significant somewhat conditional, because there are really no pure ones in the world ethnic, and not pure political nations, it is said that every political nation

is formed from an ethnic core, and my thesis, why i take such long steps, my thesis is that now a new core is being formed in ukraine, and i would call this core, this is the young or younger middle class, who mostly lives in small cities, who have no... soviet memory, who may or may not still speak russian, but do not have any special sympathy for russia or russian culture , who sees himself in the west, and actually this is the core, that is what this nation will be like, what will this core be like, what will happen to that core, my thesis was that to a large extent the maidan was their revolution in this generation, don't think that i told you i'm giving a compliment, but it's objective, i also refer you to this class, not myself, you, maybe you and you, your environment. i always have the feeling that if, if we are talking about a certain class, the middle class, then it is extremely small and has little influence,

its size does not matter, what matters is its motivation, mobility, you know, cohesion, what paschaver said again, can be 1%, if the percentage is high-quality, it sets the tone, you know, i say this all the time, because this is a generation, for me this is a generation, these are young people, because they grew up after the fall of soviet union did not grow up independence, this is the generation of independence, this is the class of independence that grew up there, you know, i always say this is an example that a generation, it has no taste in itself, the fact that people were born at the same time does not make a generation, you know, is like unleavened dough that has no taste, who gives flavor to a generation, salt, a small part, but it is about who will be the salt of this generation, who will take the vote, who will form the political program of this generation, all these other things, my observation for... is that this generation is more political because it is bilingual, bilingual, in more cases, and it is evenly distributed, one might say, spread all over ukraine, in large

cities, whether in lviv, or in dnipro, or in kharkiv, or in odesa, even for a while in donetsk, we were formed, we we know these, you know, big rallies that were held in donetsk before before the separation, there were how many people there were, but what is very important is that this generation is bilingual, but it is gradually beginning to be ethno-nationalized. that is, it transfers to the ukrainian language, to ukrainian markers, therefore the corresponding ukrainian culture is grafted, if so, if so, then the forecast is very simple: in two or three generations, ukraine will become an ethnic state, this will be a new image of ukrainian ukraine in some time, let's say yes, an image will be formed, i don’t know if it will last, because it depends on many circumstances, first, how will it end the war, how long will the war last, how will the war end, what, let's say, will be the level of our losses, and again, one can say that this generation is at the front, it... is losing a lot now, unfortunately, to a great extent it's a pity, knowing what the future of ukraine will be, where it will be, er, i assume that there will be an european union, and i hope and hope for that, not many other

factors. which i can talk about, but i have such a friend who is himself a social philologist, a linguist, he himself works in edenburg, he has such a strange place tomasz kamuzel, he is a selesian or, how to say, it is difficult to recognize who, whether he is a pole or a german, you know, it is a selesian, but he has one very simple prediction, he says that as soon as processes are started, they are very similar to those processes that once were in poland or slovakia. relatively speaking, the time when the russian-speaking or russian-speaking part of the population will become a minority in two or three generations, like the german-speaking in poland or the hungarian in slovakia, these are the processes, again, let’s wait and see, these are very cautious, cautious forecasts, but i want to say that now in ukraine, the creation, the ethnic element, and the political element are equally strong, although the political, the political wins, prevails, but again, this is

the effect of the war. because war mostly ethnonationalizes, this is the rule, look at what happened to israel after 67, we have a living example of this before our eyes, well, they revived their dead language and they created this state from scratch, well, yes, but in the year 67, you know, until the year 67, poland israel, so to speak, was more liberal, more left, you know, more inclusive, what is called rock, it has changed a lot, wars change, let's wait, we'll see, because wars have this effect, it 's still early... but at least there is a trend, we see this trend, the problem with russia is in the fact that it actually appropriated a large piece of our history, our culture, somewhere in part, i don't know, that is, it claims this inheritance, and recently timothy esh said about this, karton esh about the fact that in fact it is a little comet when you try on international on the platforms somewhere there to explain that the russian culture there is bad, it is secondary there and

so on, just focus on the fact that... you are now good, strong now, what you have is good now, but on the other hand, it doesn't matter won't we eventually have to somehow distinguish where ukrainian ends and where russian begins, especially since how difficult it is in russia, or does it have its own core, i'm saying something that won't be liked, probably more listeners, but this there is a thesis that i once heard from professor roman shpoljuka, who was and remains to a large extent a military guru, a professor at harvard, i believe that he is certainly our generation. thoughts and he once told this during a discussion: do you know if there is a ukrainian dostoevsky? and this discussion was also little , but then i found out, was the same discussion already real, does there exist an african dostoyevsky, where in africa is dostoyevsky? uh, and the question is very simple, the answer is very simple: dostoevsky translated into any african language becomes african dostoevsky, you understand? dostoevsky, which translated from the ukrainian language into ukrainian dostoyevsky. i'm not saying it's necessarily popular or anything, but it

functions in this culture. of course, we can talk about its toxicity, ugh, it’s very important, that is, the question is whether it ’s ukrainian or russian, the one who interprets it better, the one who inherits it better, the one who better makes films based on yagoli, you see, it’s very important it is, that is, it is, because it is again, it is on a bicycle, it is not, which means it is already ready, that we have it ready it is ukrainian or russian, it must be interpreted, we have no doubts about shevchenko, without a doubt, but we have a lot of figures who are the so-called... they belong to two cultures at the same time, and we have to fight for them, i believe that many for you have to fight them, maybe you don’t have to fight dostoevsky, i don’t know, although i believe that dostoevsky with all his toxicity, terrible toxicity, i am a great writer, without him, let’s say, you can’t imagine many things, but my thesis is this, my hope is this, i hope that the war will give and has already given, great almost ukrainian culture,

ukrainian dynamics. culture, because war is a crisis that puts the situation on the edge, the feeling is completely different, the emotions are more acute, we see something different that those who live in peace do not see, and you know, i am giving a simple historical example here , it may sound banal, but still, sometimes great things sound banal, well, we understand that, let's say, the great greek culture was born from the greco-persian wars, if it weren't for the greco-persian warriors, it wouldn't have happened. grace of almost all the great greeks we know, or were directly involved in this war, and were born before this war, the very feeling that a small nation could convey, to stand up to a great great empire, you know, and defeat it, that was a great elation, i mean i hope, that's my hope , that in the coming decades ukrainian culture will go up, go up a lot, break out,