that the war will give and has already given a great almost to ukrainian culture, the dynamics of ukrainian culture, because the war is the end of a crisis that puts the situation on the edge, but the feeling is completely different, the emotions are sharper, we see something different that those who do not see, those who do not see live in peace, and you know, i am giving a simple historical example here, it may sound banal, but still sometimes big things sound banal, we understand... it would not have been the greco-persian wars, there would not have been this outbreak, almost all of the great greeks that we know, or were, took part directly in this war, and were born before this war, the very feeling that a small nation could convey, to stand up to a great, great empire, you know, and defeat it, it was a huge elation, i mean, i hope, it's my hope, that in...

the next decades ukrainian culture will go up, it will go up a lot, it will break out, but i think it only has signs of it now, russian culture is no longer developing, it has frozen, it lives on its old, old, old, let’s say, there old achievements of the 19th century, and i think that i don't see any, you know, big dynamics now russian culture, but ukrainian culture can have something, i hope, at least so, today a lot is said about the fact that in ukraine for... now we somehow evaluate what happened in the last decades, maybe even centuries, as a certain post-colonial anti-colonial discourse, how well is it applied and does it fit on ukrainian soil, because it seems to me, to a certain extent, that these lands were culturally more developed than the metropolis often, well, you have already answered your question, it does not fit, because all i say, you know, i remind you, when i answer, i refer to a simple case. to my beloved work

, vinipukh, remember, vinipukh went to collect honey, and he finally realized that he would collect honey, because this honey makes the wrong bees, that is, the russian empire was the wrong empire, and it had the wrong colonies, that applies to ukraine and the baltic states, and the caucasus, because these colonies were more developed the core itself, we do not have this somewhere else, because the case is that the metropolis is more developed, and the colonies are less developed, well, here it is the opposite, and this means a very simple thing that russia was a great but backward empire. it really needed enlightened years to build this empire, and where did this elite come from, where was this reservoir, and of course, in western ukraine, balttia, ukraine, the caucasus, and then we have such a situation, because in fact, ukrainians must confess, as well like the baltics, just like the baltic germans, just like the caucasus, the georgians, for a while they built this empire because they thought it was their empire, they were wrong, they were wrong, because of this nothing good came out of the experiment, and that's why a lot of them, let's say, from ukrainians...

chose another option, the operations of this empire, and as a result we have such a strange, strange scenario that ukrainians were strongly represented both among the government and among the opposition , you know, it was a very strong division, i have only one case to cite, that's about it, it's the jews in the soviet union, the soviet jews were so strongly represented in power, and the proposal was also strongly represented, but it shows if the drama or the complexity of our, our history, and that's why, again, i 'm not going to, i don't think it's necessary to completely abandon the colonial legacy, because there are a lot of... the figures that we know now are figures who passed through these borders, from this border region and made their contribution, well, but we have to accept this reality, because the colonial legacy still needs to be given, well, because the colonial legacy means very one thing, our provencialization, our inferiority, our inferiority, well, this is what, for example, is in the same stories of the little russian goguls, that is, this one component, it is there, it is now sometimes, because you know, it is very important if you read russian authors, they do not like russian authors. gogol

critics, sometimes even hate him, because i think he is a damned maloros, because there is one feature in gogol that few people pay attention to, although if you look closely at it, it is so obvious that you know why it was not seen before, turn attention, all the heroes are ukrainian gogols, these heroes are attractive, they are blood and milk, they are cossacks, they are my girls, you understand, they are all the same, well, you know, they are good children, but they are all alive, you know, they all waste energy, instead of russian... then khlistakov, then chichikov, then nos, then shenel, they are some kind of unreal, you know, they are some pale-skinned people who are called, live in st. petersburg, everyone else is like that, and the russians thought , which gogol specially depicted in this way, because in essence everything in gogol's ukraine is much more attractive, it is warm, you know, it is beautiful, compared to that cold, with cold, with cold petersburg, you know, looking at how many people who actually are not of ukrainian origin, but they influenced, influence, and will definitely influence in ukrainian. culture, history become

a part of ukrainian culture, i understand that this project is ukrainian or ukrainian culture, it is extremely attractive , first of all, to those who come from this empire from the east, i have a postgraduate student who now... the war, a very cute child, although he was tall, you know, there was a father with a long beard, maksym osachuk, i love him very much, he is alone with crimea, and he tells me that he is very, you know, he was in vaidar at the beginning, and he told a very important thing, he understood that a ukrainian on the maidan, he didn't go to the maidan, he came to the maidan and saw, he saw so much warmth, so much solidarity that it was impossible to resist, he says that... they did not do to the ukrainians, i think it is very important that that actually it makes a lot of people ukrainians, because there is something in ukrainianness, a terrible, you know, attractiveness, uh, attractiveness is actually a feeling of will, maybe sometimes, you know, even such anarchy, but this feeling of will, you know, is very strong, and it is terribly attractive to foreigners,

if you know so well, you will screech a lot many ukrainian figures, in fact, they are not of ukrainian origin, you know, petro mohyla, or kapnist, you know, the very names are for them. who franko and his relatives were until now, i was, i was actually in his native village in naguyevichi and in naguyevichi, there are franks there, we know it, franks, yes franks, and you know that, and franco could have been at the same time and a german and a pole and even talked about the fact that he might be a jew, but this is a borderline borderline situation, shevelov after all, so absolutely, i’ll tell you, you know, lipinsky, they were foreigners, from shiptyk, who of a certain time or foreigners or simulated ones, who from a certain time they are so... the situation is ukrainian, ukrainian identity, not even that identity, but the content of ukrainian identity, that they became ukrainians, aligned themselves with ukrainian, with ukrainian, with their demands, i may say so, you know, you may not know this, i know exactly who in my family was the first ukrainian, i remember, i established it, and it was

my great-grandfather, he chose the same way, because we are all ukrainians without choice, we just don't remember it, maybe someone is lucky, because we were born once upon a time, we were the third, second, third generation, uh, fourth, who already were. ukraine, ukrainian, but i know that this is happening en masse, what we are seeing now, starting in the 16th year, and even more so in the 22nd year, is there a risk that every time adding such new ukrainians, because i, too, added, probably ukrainian, i was born in siberia and, for example, well, although there at least half-definitely i am ethnically ukrainian, but does it make sense now, but even for those who joined, relatively speaking, to this project ukrainianness in the 90s, they can to pretend that today's ukrainians, who only yesterday were russian-speaking, used to listen to russians. and so on, and today they speak with mistakes, there is such an attitude towards them, they say, try harder, you bring something russian to us, you dissolve, this, this, this, this ukrainian concentrate, should we be afraid of it, i don’t i know, we must, we must be careful, let's put it this way, because i believe,

my point of view, that in the public sphere the ukrainian language should dominate, in the private sphere, we tell ourselves what kind of mother we want at home, even chinese, that's all, we can't do it, but for various reasons, the ukrainian language should be a public language, the language of public space, which is called, you know, the language of television and the language of, i don't know if newspapers still exist or not, but at least of social networks and everything else, it's normal, it's normal, especially since the russian language is losing this status, i like to repeat it all the time, this is a sociological study that shows the world that last year the russian language lost its status as one of the ten largest languages ​​in the world , do you know? which languages ​​have given way to, guess what , portuguese has also given way among the languages ​​that are most often chosen by foreigners, here credit goes to putin, you know, he degraded this language, because my friend kamuzalya says again, this is how, you know, sometimes

socialists can say obvious things that are not obvious to us, he says that there is a problem with the russian language, not because it is somehow difficult or anything else, because there is no country in the world that has no russian language. it is not the language's fault, but the culture's fault functions in this language, you have english-speaking democracies, you have german-speaking democracies, spanish-speaking democracies, it is very important, you know, you can even have a chinese-speaking democracy, if we talk about taiwan, we do not have any russian-speaking, russian-speaking democracy, that is, if we talk about the democracy of freedom, which give the freedom and dignity of a single individual person, that is, this is very important. there is, i believe that the choice of the ukrainian language is also the choice of the dignity itself, how to say, well, not the dignity, of the content, it is very important, you know, it is, so far we have not we have the russian language, as a carrier of the same idea of ​​freedom, as it is in the ukrainian case, whether it will happen and

how it will happen depends on the further from the war, on the circumstances, again i am speaking here purely, you already know, sub' objectively, because i have no reason. and sociologically there is, although i think maybe someone did it, but what i observe is that the number of people who switch to ukrainian, russian language even from what is done at the front, if... the ukrainian front wins, the number is also increasing ukrainian-speaking people, if we do not have progress on the ukrainian front, we have this reversal, because there is a group of people who will be swayed, swayed, harassed on march 2, by what will be done in this country, in particular, what will be done during , during the war, we have a tendency, a clear tendency towards the growth of ukrainian-speaking, the question, first of all, is this tendency can't go back or? who can, because in history anything is possible, and secondly, will we create the appropriate we, i

say we, because i think that is the task ours, those people who work in the mass media, in history, write books, music, and all the rest, do we institutionalize it, you know, because when there may be no return, something, when it is a pension operation is cinnamon, very it is important, and here i actually think that institutions decide everything, whether we will have the right institutions, good institutions, but again, this is a question that... i can answer, because it is not a question of words, of our actions. institutions are more people, whether it's laws or that, i don't know, but at least, at least, at least themselves institutions, square, you know, works in a catholic university, it's an institution, uh, how good is a catholic university, because it has a certain quality, you know, a certain quality and people have a certain comfort, it has connections with the outside world, and at the same time we are all absolutely ukrainian-speaking, because it shows that it is possible to be successful in being ukrainian-speaking, in the soviet union everything was done to... be ukrainian-speaking, to be unsuccessful, because the symbol of success was the russian language, now

we know that the symbol of success is english language, it is, therefore, it is very important, i am it you know, i’m saying, and i’ve been saying it for a long time, i’m glad that zelensky made it a law, that in fact it should be the norm to teach english in our country, even pass an exam, if i’m not mistaken, for officials, officials of the highest level, but it’s very important , it's not important for yourself... carries, as much as it is attractive, as much as it gives certain, well, you understand, way out, way out, way out, way out, world. one thing is clear, that such a language as ukrainian or czech or polish by itself does not give access to the world, it is too small, russian did, ukrainian will often be the language of one out of ten of the world's largest languages, but it is very important that we can go out into the world through russian, not through russian, but through english, and also obviously. with the appropriate content, but this is another matter, that is, this, this is what i consider the task of the institution, because what does the institution

mean, such provision must be made for, say, school education, starting with kindergarten, where it will be possible for children to achieve, let's say, the level there bi2, these are simple things, that is, i believe that all our conversations, well, maybe most of our conversations are confused with the old distribution of forces and with a certain expenditure of intelligence. are translated into the construction of certain institutions, which we ourselves can understand, what they should be, how to construct them. is there persistence, i don’t know, of some traditions, values ​​that prevent us from modernizing, and how in principle it is possible, i don’t know, to raise another generation, if there are, for example, parents who remain sufficiently post-soviet, for example, in their views there, no i know, on the tolerance of lies, for example, among politicians, or the willingness to sell one's vote in elections, i will say that again one may not like it, especially not to like people of my generation, the only

way is when we die, because a generation is formed with a set of values ​​of races, it is mostly formed in middle age, and during life it does not change, bodyslave changes, we have a set of generations, a set of values ​​that have formed somewhere in my teenage years, relatively speaking, the 70s and 80s, they were not bad years, they were bad economic years, but they were years when ukraine was opening up, where there were certain feelings, you know, that the union is falling, there from the side, a kind of polish solidarity arises, you know, and films, and music and all the rest, it somehow gave us a certain optimism, and we are still, we are socially optimistic in our country, for many people, let's say from the east of ukraine, obviously russian culture was the only one, for they are now the events of russian culture, this is a tragedy, but it is very important, and i will say again, from the point of view of sociology, history, it is very important to work. with those children who have adolescence, who are actually forming values. conventionally speaking, these are children of senior,

senior classes, plus junior students faculties, junior years of the university or other higher education institutions, it is very important that they feel at this time, that they will feel, of course, not only this is institutional, but let's say what will be done in the yard, what will be the weather, you know, there will be peace or war, what will be the economic situation, but this is what needs the most attention. here, as a historian says, who, let's say, believes that generation is one of the key categories of history, on the same level, say, with nations or with classes, religious groups, generation is also that... group, may be the most important group that shapes the issue of the future. we now have a generation that, among which there are teenagers, who, for example, burn cars, cars of the armed forces of ukraine. they are in the majority or the minority, they are salted or not salted, you understand, it is very important , very important, of course there will be, excuse me, and there will be criminals in this generation and rapists, that is normal, we understand

that the distribution of forces is very important, question, who is the tone in that generation, who articulates the voice of this generation, who is the loudest in this generation? i suppose who is listened to the most, it is very important, who is the one who is listened to the most, or, shall we say, admired the most, it is very important, this is very important, this, this is the key, there must be such structures where this is formed, where salt production, so to speak , this is because they will determine the tone of the generation, ukraine, it is doomed to be. history, that there is no determinism, but i always think in categories, let's say, you know how to make bets, so if i were to make bets on the democracy of ukraine, europeanness, then for me it is conditionally eight to two, we can, and these rates are increasing, i would

n't say, let's say, in 91, it was 5/5, 50 for 50, let's say, i saw. these components that drive us europeanness and and and and democracy are increasing, again, a lot depends on the war, we understand that, in particular, in which in which in which, in which borders, within what limits will we end this war? in this, conditionally speaking, in such a triad of priorities, people, an independent state and territories, how would you place that priority, should it be placed? i have something to say. so here i am first of all i can point my finger at the sky, i'm sure i'll do it quickly, because you know, prophesying during a war, it's funny, but uh, the only thing i understand is that it's necessary, that's our hierarchy, that we should have, i i believe that our hierarchy is to preserve the ukrainian nation as such, as it is, and

to join the european union, not because europe is beautiful, it is beautiful in itself, but because entering... europe means finally leaving from the colonial state, from the colonial state, where there is a colony of a large space, on which the metropolis imposes its paw, not the one that imposes its paw, i say that this is its center in fact, moscow considers that kyiv is their center, and it is also very important that this is a center colony, a colony that is geopolitically very vulnerable, because here wars, always wars, for me the european union is a way to solve the key security problem. because, so that we don't talk about europe, we understand that modern europe is the construction where a war between two neighboring states is impossible, ugh, this is very important, that is, i mean this to me, you know the key for me, it is to enter europe, the maximum possible territory, with minimal losses, i don't know how to do it, because

they don't have an answer to this question in the country, you know, many of my acquaintances, older people today , for example, there are various professors there, they are concerned with the question in the kitchens, relatively speaking, these conversations in the kitchens are faster, it is the fact that the best people of this war often die in this war, this is not true, you know why, because it is already too difficult to understand , who is the best, what is the worst, everyone, everyone loss in war is the best, the most expensive, let's say so, and secondly, i all judge by myself, because we know about those deaths that affect us the most, but agree, there are people who are impossible within a generation of.. to replace, it is impossible, no, it is impossible, but in the end we will understand that both the first world war and the second world war simply knocked out a whole generation of ukrainians, you know, these geniuses of ours, which did not happen, but what i want to say, i have empirical observation, my all graduate students went to war from the first days, i i know a lot of public figures, politicians, historians, fortunately, fortunately

, they are all alive, i am not saying that there are no losses among them, but i see that the best ones die. also massive, there is nothing like that at least, thank god that there is no, they are, they are, they, they are doing, they are active, active are, so i think, you know, this is a strong exaggeration that, what dies, dies the best , all the representatives are killed, this, this is a tragedy, is there a chance that this war will give birth to the opposite, well, i remember the late vasylenko, who was the author of the actual declaration on state sovereignty, which said that in 1990, 1989, to a certain extent, ukraine could not show a better result also because we did not have a formed national elite, such as she, there was, there was such a harsh negative selection , for example, in universities where... six departments just made sure that a person could not, for example, defend himself, agree, but look, again, this issue is difficult and controversial, because i remember again, you know ,

i, i, i, i have already lived a longer life, eh, when a movement was launched in ukraine, a movement was created in lviv movement, most of the leaders of the movement and the activists of the movement came from the natural sciences, well, wherever, wherever possible, there was control, not less, but less, because there, after all, talents counted, they were physicists, mathematicians, chemists , very important. not a historian, there were not so many historians, there were very few lawyers, it is very important, very important, that is, there was this elite, ugh, that is, somehow, there is, you know, it is impossible to exterminate ukrainians, it is not possible, this is very important, because even people who were mathematicians and physicists remained ukrainians, and they created, created, created these things that were not ready, where there was no readiness, there was an unpreparedness in the sense that this generation, our generation of the summer was terribly provincialized, not because it had such a characteristic that we we chose ourselves, because we were provincialized very much, we knew absolutely nothing about foreign countries. ugh, we didn’t know, you know, it was written by andrews umland, you know, an economist who helped ukraine, he said that in 1991 kravchuk was not around, there was only one

economist who understood how it functions market economy, then there was a pensioner, but i don't know who he is talking about, i remember these words of his, it is he who says a pensioner, he says that no one had any idea at all, in contrast to this, he knows this very well-known story, let's say with baltserovych of poland, when the first prime minister was a non-communist mozowiecki. had a problem choosing who to become, to make the minister of economy, he had a list of as many as 10 good economists who were in the west, there was only one in ukraine, a number-minded person could easily go, for example, to europe and to perform there, this hungarian balcherovych is very simple, you know how they got out, because he was on football in america, which ukrainian could be on football in america in the 80s and 70s, in the best case, in the best case it was someone in moscow, who went to moscow, you know, made a career there, as in russian-speaking ukraine, that was all. and this was this, this was a terrible provincialization, we were not ready, because we did not know how, we wanted and wanted very much, we had this feeling, purely instinctively, but there was no feeling yet,

how to do all this, it was just a hope, maybe a chance, it worked, that those countries would declare their independence, our life would change dramatically for the better, it didn’t happen, because we didn’t know how the laws work, how these regularities work, but it is, but this feeling plays a role and sometimes the feeling is stronger than rational reasoning, it is on its own. well, one way or another, we are doomed to live with such a neighbor, probably like russia, or perhaps not doomed, there are thoughts that maybe russia can somehow disintegrate, defragment, but you know, you are here, too i will allow myself to take an example from mass culture, for me russia is something, it is a zombie army from romero’s films, that is, their peculiarity is that, relatively speaking, they can turn anyone into a part of their army, maybe yes, maybe yes, maybe not, well, if we talk about the chechens like that, but we need to quickly knock them out, relatively speaking. to make the chechens what they are now, to destroy the elite, it is very important, but it doesn't matter who you are, you can be a chechen, but be russian, a buryat, but russian, but you see what is very important, here there is such a simple factor as

demographic, it is too difficult for you to exterminate ukrainians, there are too many of them, do you remember, you don't remember, i don't remember, because i wasn't there in 1956, but khrushchev told in 1956 at this mysterious the speech that allegedly stalin intended to take all the ukrainians to siberia, there was not enough fire, because this... but it may be different, it is not true, but this metaphor is very important: you cannot swallow such large pieces as ukraine and ukrainians, because after all it remains a remnant, very important, and to a certain extent it saved us, this is our great demographic potential, today ukraine has the lowest birth rate in the world, and russia is also one of the lowest, this month they set an anti-record for their entire history, despite all the efforts of putin to distribute medals and money for every child born there in short: 300,000, for example, ukrainian children are in poland right now, they will go to polish schools from september 1, it is already obligatory, and where

will the education be in polish, i don't know if we will return these children, it's hard to say, or it depends on how long the war will last, how long it will last, what will be the consequences, what will be the policy of the government, after the war, my hope is, the calculation is rather that when the war ends... ukraine will integrate into the european union, at least begin to integrate , investments will begin, and investments must begin, western ukraine for reconstruction, for reconstruction, there will be a strong need for people who will have dual experience, will be ukrainians, and at the same time will have western experience, i think that in such cases we aim to become the so-called gold an action that will help ukraine to rebuild, rebuild in a good way with... you know, there is this old thesis that no one has rejected: no independence will happen without emigration, because migration actually gets rid of, allows us to get rid of that

provincialism of other sins. which we don't see because we are inside, because migration very often brings new social capital, new habits, you know, i hope that the children who are learning, the children who are studying in a british school, maybe a polish school, will not go back to ukrainian, will return to ukraine, but they will not want to go to the school that they have now, you understand what i want to say, this social issue is very important, that is, it is the minus that we can transform, you know, again, i return to poland , we don't remember it now, but in the 90s, years... thank you very much for this conversation, we join all of ukraine in congratulating us on the 33rd independence day, yaroslav rrytsak was with us today, thank you .

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