it's great, go to it yourself, father, who do you have? i say, people's artist, they oh, i say, look, my father was born in 1945, yevhen revchinsky, excuse me, please, yes, yevhen revchinsky, poet, politician, public figure, journalist, people's deput of ukraine of the eighth convocation, was with us, thank you very much, you know, honored worker of culture, there was such a title, he was called zasrak on the sidelines, honored worker of culture, zasrak, on this we say goodbye to... everything is fine, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for watching, large and little victories for all of us, good luck, congratulations, friends, i congratulate you all on the holiday and the interlocutor of our today's broadcast, ukrainian and american historian, professor of the ukrainian department. of history

at harvard university, serhii plohii, i congratulate you, mr. serhiy, and i also congratulate you on independence day, thank you very much, i congratulate you on the holiday, i congratulate all the viewers, listeners on the holiday and you personally on the presentation of the taras shevchenko award, this is a very important award , a very important marker for this award is your awards. thank you, i want to talk. about historical memory, and you know, i have to confess to you, it certainly is, it sounds like a sign of bad taste, but i will tell you, there were few history books that i read with such interest as the last school textbook on the history of russia, which was written former minister of culture of the russian federation mydynskyi and rector of the moscow institute of international relations torkunov, because you know, when i read the books of historians... your

books, i think that the gate of europe is such a great example of such an analysis of ukrainian history, when i read later medinsky's textbook, for me it's how to look, i don't even know how to compare it, well, some comic from which i 'm trying to find answers to the question of what modern russia breathes, the modern russian elite, how it distorts, distorts ukrainian history, i don't know if you have seen this book, yes, yes, i have. and actually - i didn't read the whole thing, but i paid attention, of course, to the last chapters, and the feeling on the one hand, really, as you say, like a comic book, that is, because in the textbook any approach, any idea is crystallized as much as possible, and this the textbook is simply an excellent textbook of today's russian - radical nationalism, fascism, imperialism, i.e....

the term can be any, but on the other hand you understand that it is made from the point of view of influencing e schoolchildren e quite professionally, and i.e. screaming screaming unprofessionalism is historical and very, very dangerous professionalism when it comes to the way the textbook is formed, and for us, for historians, it is like an article by putin from the 21st year, on the one hand you want to laugh, on the other hand it is clearly not to laugh, because this, because these are documents which are formed either by those crowds, or by hordes or battalions that came to ukraine and may come in the future. this is a very important question. you and i studied history in soviet schools, i don't know to what extent it can be said that these history courses really influenced a large number of people and... preserved in them

an idea of ​​history that was later essentially destroyed by the collapse of communism. how long do these dangerous narratives stay in people's heads. i mean long precisely when the social order changes, because we, we are talking about time, here is putin's russia, it may, its time of existence, may come to an end. does this mean that in the heads of those people who will learn from these textbooks in russian schools, these narratives of aggressiveness are repeated. to all non- russian imperialism, will they remain even after putin? of course, they will remain as the soviet narrative actually remained, a very long period of time, that is, the so-called lenin fall, this is the year 2013-2014, the soviet union ceased to exist in the year 91, and the signs of the marker of soviet history remained. they

remained much less or almost did not remain in western ukraine or in the baltic region, where mobilization, including this one, began. of this protest during the anniversary of the molotov-ribbentrop pact, but in a large part of the soviet union, in a large part of ukraine, those stereotypes continued for decades, to a certain extent they still continue, and they are displaced not only and not so much by showing that it is good these narratives are somehow scientifically or socially untenable, but they are are displaced when... other and other narratives appear, and from my point of view i wrote about it the same leninopad, this, among other things, is also the moment when ukraine refused to live together in a world in which lenin hero,

and victims of the holodomor, that means heroes, victims, and all this somewhere in the same village, on the same square, and they are celebrated at the same time, that is... this is this schizophrenia, historical schizophrenia has finally come to an end, and one of these memories "the jailers should have been overthrown, it was a monument to lena, but it happened again 2013-14 and in a large part of ukraine, as a result of the decision of the verkhovna rada, not as a result of the decision of local councils. well, they will tell you that they actually tried to unite ukraine with such a mix of historical holidays. of historical memory, do you remember the calls of ukrainian politicians who said, let's have different heroes in different regions, relatively speaking, in the west and in the center, the heroes will be the fighters of the ukrainian rebel army, in the east, the heroes will be, relatively speaking, stakhanov

and artem , which have nothing to do with ukrainian civilization itself, frankly speaking they have, of course, i remember it very well, but this... was an attempt to unify ukraine, it was an attempt to collect votes in each of the regions, saying in each region that what is there means that it is somehow historical turned out, historically liked, and here the question is, on the one hand, the real narrative and the continuation of the existence of the soviet narrative, on the other hand, this question is more serious, that, what are you doing to us... with the soviet heritage, the people who were interviewed in the 14th , in the 15th years, completely ukrainian-oriented, patriotic and so on, they said: well, take away the monument to lenin from my city in donbas, and what will remain there, there are no other

monuments there, the city itself was formed in the 20s and 30s, and this, this question is more serious, than it is simple, it means to show that, therefore, we are... the madinian swindler or the soviet narrative is a discontented one built on blood, this is a question of what is actually ours, our consciousness, and what we should do with the long soviet period, what we to do with the same violinist, what should we do with a politically divided history, that is, it is more serious a question that cannot be solved. just some denial or mockery of a certain narrative. but can we say that we are the first to solve such a question? i can give you an example of the story of north macedonia. i remember when i first started coming to north macedonia in the years after its

declaration of independence, the national heroes of macedonia remained on its iconostasis, they were members of the communist union and komsomol members, but they fought for macedonian sovereignty within yugoslavia. then the next government tried to replace this historical narrative, referring to the hellenic legacy, to alexander the great and his father, king philip. now, i would say, there is a search for new compromises between this communist period, that is, the supporters of macedonia's sovereignty, and the pre-communist period, when macedonia was a significant part of hellenic civilization. they are looking for themselves. maybe we need to look for ourselves in the east too, as america is doing it. i am coming to some american'. cities, and there are people who are heroes of some political or cultural battles of the 19th and 20th centuries, american cities too created, i apologize, not in the 12th century, this is not athens or rome or kyiv, but nevertheless they have their own architectural image and their own image

of those they are proud of, well, yes, i think by the number of settlements with the name athens america interrupts greece. that is , they are looking for roots, they are looking for roots in the classics, but i completely agree with you that this is a search, and what in our country very often looks like... irritating, there are other words, of course, for this on facebook, and and in the public space and so on, there are, there are elements, elements of this search, and we are not unique, that is, we are a country that arose on the ruins of a former empire, a multinational country, with a developed iconostasis and a national narrative, and we were not thrown somewhere on... from above, that is, on some parachutes, that is, units, part of the same elite, the

same sixties, they, they are as soviet as they are anti-soviet, that is, it is a natural, it is a natural process of forming a nation from within, from within the empire, and a very difficult process of coordination, historical coordination, coordination of the political, that is... no, we are not unique, on the other hand, everyone, each of these post-imperial nations has its own set of problems, it has its own set of, let's say, some positive historical elements, the so-called usable past, which can be used for this formation of a new idea , and ukrainians in this sense are endowed with a very , very good history, that is... there is something to turn to, from the fact that there is kyiv, there are

kyiv shrines, to the fact that there is a very developed cossack narrative, there is a narrative struggle in the 20th century against any invaders, very different invaders, i.e. e here we have e, if we can't use it, if we can't agree e because of a better understanding of history, which means a better understanding. ourselves, well, we, us, there will be no one to blame, except ourselves, we, we are not separated from history. well, here is a very important thing , it seems to me that history is distorted and hidden at the same time, because when i resort to some historical events that seem completely clear to me, because i thought that you just need to read and, let's say, the soviet or bolshevik version history, on the contrary, well, conditionally speaking, to change the signs, then i... very often i come across a situation when it turns out that simply the events were completely

different, or it was not the events, what are the conventional bad guys, fought against the conventional good ones, and now we ask, let's confuse the good with the bad and vice versa, and understand how it all really happened, and then it turns out that it didn't happen, that it's all fiction, that it's all a myth, like the famous story with these panphilic heroes, or the details of the famous feat of zoe there. or as in the story of the second during world war ii, soviet propaganda always talked about the exploits of soviet pilots, they were certainly heroic people, but they never reported that, in principle, the pilots of the reich were much more effective and efficient than the pilots of the soviet union, and against this background, of course, all this looks more or less heroic, but together with these, more tragically, the price, the price of each flight becomes much different than it was in soviet propaganda, such examples are possible. to list a huge number, and here he is the fact that we don't know the truth, that we even

invent truths for ourselves, trying to somehow evaluate the situation on the contrary, it seems to me that this is also very dangerous, so you know, i am the first time i hear it and i hear it from you to change it relatively to the opposite, i myself lived through this period, the end of the 80s, 90s, that is, the idea was about what to change... the sign and the world, the world will somehow manifest itself, and you will understand it, and this is also part of existence in the conditions of these ideological wars and and the adoption of a certain side, and relatively relative to those of that particular one the example you gave regarding planes and pilots and heroes and losses, if i am not correct. from 40 to 50% of all losses of soviet aviation were related to the fact that with mechanical

malfunctions of aircraft, that is, from 40 to 50% of losses, that is, this is exactly the reality that you will not understand by simply changing plus, plus to minus and minus to plus, so really the story is very, very multifaceted, and propaganda, what it is, how it works, that is... it must be absolutely, absolutely a lie, it happens that way too, but it takes some aspect of a big problem and illuminates it as as as as as a marker as a characteristic these. whole problem and change it plus to minus, well , some aspect can understand this, but not the problem as a whole, and only, only the understanding of this story as a whole, it seems to me, can be the truth that can liberate us, that is, this this is a process, a process much more complicated than changing signs, another

very important aspect that i always... think about now, when it comes to the future european integration of ukraine, it is a historical memory that divides ukrainians and their neighbors into in the west, well, we can see that how as soon as the slightest aggravation of polish-ukrainian relations appears, it can be about anything, even about grain, immediately the topic of volyn comes up and immediately an official or an intellectual appears who says: until you accept our narrative, you are not going anywhere come on, now here it is... these days, if you go around the transcarpathian region, you will see an absolutely amazing picture in the areas where the hungarian population lives, you will see billboards that, so to speak, commemorate the trianon tragedy, in the areas where the hungarian population lives ukrainian population, you will see the same billboards are dedicated to the trianon, only it is written there that it is a triumph of historical

justice, and it is happening literally in one ukrainian region during the war, and it is , of course, quite serious. but i, i would say, is worried, because i just imagine what will begin when the real, you understand, not virtual, but real negotiations of ukraine regarding the accession to the european union begin, and i think that maybe there are tools that would allow to find common denominator, historical tools in particular, dialog between scientists, common history textbooks, what are all these layers of the past. of course there is, and the only thing that is needed for this is the necessary political will, and it is clear that history and various historical memories can in themselves provoke some political conflicts, but eh,

usually these things fade into the background when things change , politics, that is, the great war between russia and ukraine began, which became a threat not only to ukraine, but is felt, of course, in the baltic states and in poland, and somehow historical, historical debates, at least for a while, took a back seat flan, and the polish society itself demonstrated a level of solidarity that was unimaginable . i'm talking about a dominant. the role of politics in these historical discussions is not to remove the responsibility from historians, but in some things, well , it will be very difficult to agree, to agree, when there was a war on both sides, and each side considered itself, itself right in

this, at some points it can... but ideally, so to speak, put it, press pause, that is, it does not always succeed, but it it is worth, it is also worth thinking about and talking about it, that is, the same polish-ukrainian relations, during the war and the solidarity of the two countries, this may not be the best time to raise them and discuss them, because i actually recently saw an interview of a very good polish.. . the historian, who came to kyiv, tried to convince his opponent, to accept certain truths, i.e. you also have a gothic, our good friend, well actually it is possible, i.e. i did not specifically mention

the name, i for me, along with this, you know such a friend of ours who has... such views, he goes to ukraine, shows solidarity, here is such a very, such a strange situation, which in principle could not happen, that a person is so narrative, at the same time, he is a sincere friend of the country , what is his history, which , to put it mildly, he is troubled by the past, the truth is that this is strange, of course, of course, and here is just the moment that the discussion and these... debates and disagreements are not conducted between one side saints, on the other hand, sinners, that means, on the one hand, abominations, on the other hand righteous that is, on both sides of this debate, it can be completely honest from the point of view of both sides, there are different, there are different

truths to a certain one, and because of this, i am talking about the fact that such and such things are probably ethical now, now put somewhere on pause , and for one side and the other side, but what i 'd like to ... add as well is that, well, some elements of the story lend themselves very well to some sort of heroism, other elements lend themselves very well to overcoming, overcoming, for example, conflicts and contradictions, but also for unification from the point of view of memory of ukraine, of ukrainian memory, what is happening today, what is happening since 2000, is extremely important. the 14th year, this is the formation, the beginning of the 91st year, this is the formation of a virtually new ukrainian nation, on

new foundations, and unfortunately, the last few years, especially the last two, give examples of dedication, heroism, er, which, apparently, is difficult to find even in history, including even ukrainian history, not history... they studied some four days of ukrainian independence in kyiv does it mean eight seven or eight months under german the occupation of the hetmanate, the establishment of the academy of sciences, and so on, we have today, we are on the eve of the independence day celebration , that is, we have how many 32 years, this is the 32nd anniversary , so if i am not mistaken, 32 years of the existence of an independent ukrainian state, 8-9 years of wanton war, these things, which, then , not

only changed society, changed us, but they also changed the future, the future writing about history, and this, this should become the basis for ukrainian unification, the history of ukrainian unification between 91, 2014 and... 2022-23 , that is, it is worth paying attention to this history through which we live, bloody, but also tragic and heroic, and descendants will turn to this history, to these years, to these days, to these nights, in order to find support for themselves , psychological, moral, to find... to go heroes, to understand, to understand also not easy choices that people made, it is not only heroism, i think that

we, as historians, this is a difficult task, but we should pay more attention to such our last years, for our last decades and try to build a new understanding of the country and myself on the basis of this experience, i just want to ... clarify such a fundamental question as how the historical responsibility of the state differs from the historical responsibility of the nation, well, i'm just illustrative, when we talk about responsibility for the holocaust, we impose this the responsibility of the reich on the german state as such, and we know that there were states, they were state institutions, they acted in different ways, but they were in different relationships with the reich, but they were participants in one way or another. institutions of the same the holocaust, well, let's say, there was the croatian state of pavelic, it had one attitude to the holocaust, and there was the bulgarian state of tsar boris, and it

was a different attitude to the holocaust, but all this can be studied precisely as the work of state institutions and as their dialogue, if at all then it was in a normal form with its own society, but in bulgaria there was a bulgarian demonstration against the deportation of bulgarian jews ended in success and people were saved, but if the people do not... statehood, if individual representatives of this people, let large numbers participate in these or other crimes, i mean, not only the holocaust, i mean the volyn tragedy, etc., can we say that the people who do not have state institutions are just as responsible for this or that big crime, as a state institution, as a state, as such, because it seems to me that in our understanding and in the understanding, in the case of our neighbors, it is somehow equalized. i don't know how correct it is, clearly, especially in the context of the second world war.

left in the context of the holocaust, there are countries and states that conquer and control other peoples and other territories, impose on them a certain model of behavior, ideological and so on, and of course find a level of collaborators and collaboration, but these are these are these captured territories, well, relatively speaking, what is the responsibility... there are people in a concentration camp, in the same nazi one, for the fact that they take one way or another, participate in some kind of connections related to crimes, apparently, we do not impose responsibility on this, a little more freedom in the conditions, in conditions occupation, but again it is quite limited, but -

today's russian aggression against ukraine, is this a war? here are very important, for example, i probably have a little responsibility, certainly for putin as well, or is it russia's war? and it is clear that putin is a very important figure in this whole story. but it is also a product produced by russian society, as hitler was provoked, produced by german society, and this society creates this model of the state and this model of behavior, and this model of behavior creates this society, so i think that means the limit of how much it is some regime that occupied the country. this is

an important component, but there is a responsibility, there is a shared responsibility, there is a social responsibility, and especially when it comes to what you do with this experience of yours, something negative, which is criminal and so on, how you treat it, that's it , if we talk about the historical component, it seems to me that there is the most important component, well then... if you turned to the topic of russia, then we can also ask a question here, which was very relevant in the first months of the war, now it is not talked about so much, but i tried to think about it too and now i think , it is not the responsibility of the russian people in russia, but the russians really have their own state, and indeed this state gave birth to vladimir putin in one way or another, and it is not even a matter of national origin, because the russian leadership includes people of various

national origins, serhii shaigu. who vynets, let's say there by ethnic origin, but it is clear that all these people serve russian chauvinism in one form or another, and here are the peoples of russia, who have quasi-states, which in fact do not protect their interests, where they do not study their national languages, where their national culture, their heritage is distorted, where everything possible is done to prove their second-rateness and second-rateness, they are as responsible as the russians for this war. do you remember how at the beginning of the war , even russian propaganda tried to speak normally about the buryats of vitovyntsi, and many of us accepted this and gave facts, but you see , there were buryats in our village here in the kyiv region, they acted like beasts, and the chechens-kadyrivs acted even more beastly, and it was as if they were from russians, who in fact created this state and this army and this aggression, who

need ukraine as their own... peaceful , eternal land, the responsibility was transferred to small nations, which in principle are very far from all this, even from europe, but they became much more responsible and crueler than those who the war started and those who have their own, if you will, state interest in this war, of course, this is a classic imperial imperial practice, that is, you conquer... territories, then you use these territories, this is this population to continue in fact of its imperialist war, and then you can, you can hide behind them, i.e. this is this this this is not the first time, not the first time it happens, that is, all these wild divisions and so on, that is, you can then say that it is not us, it is the asians

they came somewhere in europe. they did something there and so on, and we here...