responsibility was transferred to small nations, which in principle are very far from all this, even from europe, but they became much more responsible and cruel than those who started this war and those who in this war have their own, if you will, state interest, of course, this is this is a classic imperial imperial practice, that is , you conquer territories, then you er... use these territories, this is this population to actually continue your imperialist war, and then you can hide behind them, that is, this is this this is this is not the first time, not the first time is happening, that is, all these wild divisions and so on, eh, that is, you can later say that it ’s not us, it’s that asians came somewhere in europe and did something there and so on, and here we are... we have tcheikovsky , we, we read, we

admire, and so on and so forth, that is , these and these things have already happened, these things have already happened, the responsibility of these peoples as such, i do not have any specific formula to talk about, but i have a very specific a parallel that i think might help us think about it, what is our responsiblity for what the soviet union did in the same eastern europe in the 39th and 40th years, for what it did in europe after the 45th year, that is , in fact, ukraine did not have sovereignty in ukraine, ukrainians were not sovereign, on the other hand, well, the ukrainian party elite...

one of the most influential in the soviet union, that is, i researched the kyiv elite, i researched the history of the caribbean crisis, well , the key decisions about whether or not to shoot at an american plane over cuba were made by two generals, the last name of one was buckwheat, the other was pumpkin, that is, chi chi buckwheat and pumpkin, i.e. i don't know who they were in terms of self-identity, i.e. here it is also an ethnic issue. whether it is territorial, that is, it is a difficult question, but it is a very real and important question, and i think it would be better for us today to answer the question about the buryats and the proto-vims, thinking about us and about our role in the soviet empire, well, that's for sure , which is of great importance, we talked at the beginning of our conversation about all these new russian textbooks, but the context is also important. if you want, forging in

in the imperial or non-imperial narrative, even from soviet times, you see, i thought, just when i was in a beard and looked at this shot monument of shevchenko during the shevchenko awards ceremony, that shevchenko was one way or another a soldier of the russian empire , who always ridiculed this empire, branded it and created in his poetry such an image of this russian empire, on which we are all... brought up, which are an alternative to the image of the russian empire that russians know, i mean not even from history textbooks , because it seems to me that culture can act more strongly than history. in the soviet union , the textbooks said that the russian empire was oppressed by other nations, at least until the 17th year, but students in the schools of soviet russia taught lermontov, taught pushkin about... georgia, which flourished under the price of

friendly bayonets, about polish the uprising, the dispute of the slavs among themselves, and the best russian poets wrote this, in beautiful words, in beautiful works, with landscapes, i would say, of those countries that were conquered by the russian army, be it in the caucasus, be it in poland, be it in ukraine, some of the best ukrainian landscapes were created by pushkin in the poem. mazepa, which is essentially an imperial myth about mazepa and thus a response to byron's fascination. and on the other hand, there were students of schools of soviet ukraine. we taught all this in schools, from moldovan to finnish, in all languages ​​everything is silent. choreki saklya, everything is yours. i remember it from my childhood. and that, i would say, could create an anti-imperial narrative. and pavlo grabovskyi, and ivan franko, and lesya. all

these poets were anti-imperial at a time when their russian contemporaries, one might say, the best of their russian contemporaries, sang the praises of the empire, and this... you already know, is a pitfall for centuries of misunderstanding, well, you mentioned shevchenko's words about from a moldovan to a finn, well, finns are also mentioned in alexander pushkin's will, and my fine friend stepey kolmyk should consider him his national poet, and his national poet, and yes, yes, that is, this, this, these are very, very different narratives. and they seemed to be present, in particular in ukraine, and one in the lessons of russian literature, the other in the lessons ukrainian literature. but the question is also that the children who have studied it,

that means, well, there are creations that are formed, which are formed by the teacher, and the understanding of what is read is also formed. it is a teacher, and because of this, i would like to emphasize the importance of the role of the teacher and not the importance of the role of the interpreter in this whole story, because falsification could and did happen in fact in any texts, that is, the same shevchenko was appropriated by the soviet soviet literary narrative after the end of the soviet union, tamara gondorova wrote a book about franko, he was not a stonemason, that is, franko was only a stonemason, shevchenko was only a serf in a coat,

which he, therefore, specially wore for taking photographs, and this, this is the question of what we do with our heritage as we try to understand it, and i join this conversation now from cambridge, united states of america, where great debates are now unfolding regarding the decolonization of russian or russian-centric history and literature, where, in fact, almost for the first time in mainstream, that is, the main questions are questions about the imperial, the key imperial narrative of russian literature. which imperialism was recognized as the basis of french and english literature, but somehow russian actually remained the subject of absolute adoration and idealization, and this is now changing, changing because of the events

in ukraine, and specifically because of the ukrainian ukrainian resistance, so i would just like to say that these... these these these processes do not only concern ukraine or the post-soviet space, in general the post-soviet image of the russian space in the world, and the trigger for these discussions was precisely the opposition to ukraine. well, we can say that ukrainians can be not only witnesses, but also participants in this rethinking of russian empires. of the cultural narrative and the russian imperial past, because it seems to me that we do not even fully give ourselves an account today of the roles that this russian heritage played in the formation of even the current ukrainian perception of the world? this is the situation that opened thanks to

the heroism of the ukrainian army, ukrainian people, will not last forever if we want to somehow influence it. we need to be included in these processes, we need to speak, we need to communicate, sometimes it is very difficult , that is, look at the current discussions on the ukrainian internet about good russians, that is, the idea of ​​communication with anyone is actually excluded, it is interpreted as a possible betrayal, but what this means is to create at this pivotal moment a ghetto where we remain our own... truth, and limit our ability to actually affect change in larger narratives and perceptions of ourselves and about the world around us. again, this is a unique opportunity to somehow waste, which from my point of view would be a crime. well, there is another

big question, to what extent the russian community itself, even the emigre, even liberally, is ready for discussion, if it does not put this community, i would say and... its cultural and historical preferences on a pedestal, because that is how people can speak against putin, but they still have no doubts that russia is the center of this entire civilization of everyone... who is considered either an enemy or someone who fools around for hipu, to put it simply, i totally understand what you're talking about, i know people like that, but i also know other people who weren't there before 2022, who are here now, and these people need to be talked to, well, i mean that it seems to me that the russian society itself should at least partially carry out its own work on po'. to realize, at least, the importance of their own culture in the world

context. it seems to me that this is also a soviet influence, mr. sergey, because in the soviet union everyone was sincerely convinced that they were aware of the role of their own culture and that that can be compared with world cultural values, and this is a complete lie, because soviet culture existed in a certain isolation from the world cultural context and from the historical context and from the scientific context and... only now people can, have the opportunity to understand the real weight of their cultural and scientific heritage on the scales of a common history with the world, and the majority does not want to do this, yes, that is, hiding behind the idea, that is, of a separate civilization, uniqueness, and so on, if we are a separate civilization, then of course, of course anything that happens here. is unique, it does not need any dialogue with the environment, because it, because it is excellent, it

is different, and this, this, this is, this is a very serious, very serious problem, but changes have begun, and we have an opportunity or support these changes, or isolate yourself and not support and, therefore, succumb to... actually open the way for some interpretations, which, well, in fact , will be completely different, if not contradictory, compare with our experience, with our ideas, er, that is, er not run into the door that was opened by the ukrainian army and the ukrainian people, this... this would be a strategic mistake. well, then, this is also very

important to understand, we can enter any door, which, if we do not consider ourselves to be some separate civilization that is constantly trying to make a bicycle, and this is what ukraine should be in europe, in the future , what should be its place in europe, in your opinion, ending our conversation, uh, well, today ukraine appeared in europe as a kind of... some robes behind the scenes of a knight, i don't know, a defender of borders, a european border, ukraine, went to war with the russian army, which only the finns took advantage of in the 40th year, the poles could not fight for various reasons. on both sides in the 68th year, the chigoslovs did not even try

to do it, hungary did not succeed, that is, in such a large industrial, large-scale war, well, we appear as a warrior, and it was not, it was not our choice, was not the choice of ukraine, and... thus we have already entered, then the question of entering socio-economically, civilizationally, culturally, and here, here is the most important for us the question is even about democracy, although now there are big question marks as to how far we will be able to survive the military experience and remain a democracy, i still remain an optimist here, but... the question of rule of law, that is, in fact, to what extent, to what extent we

can be a people , a nation, a country that will put the law above any other, ethnic, social, economic and so on, the interests of certain groups, that is, this is a key issue, but it seems to me, purely from a military point of view, that is, we, we chose a place, we, we, we, we create, and we continue the border, the border of europe further east, that is... from my point of view, it is a matter of time, such integration, integration in the sense of a secure europe and the provision of this security, but - culturally, culturally and legally integration, by culture i primarily mean , i have a culture of law, this will historically be the greatest for us

, thank you, mr. serhiy, once again... i congratulate you on the holiday, i congratulate you on the holiday, dear viewers, our guest was the famous ukrainian and american historian serhiy plokhii, see you soon, good luck, there are discounts until independence day on decateln, 15% in pharmacies plantain, bam and oskad. i will shoot numbness worries you, the antineuro complex helps to normalize the functioning of the nervous system. dolgit antineuro capsules - help for your nervous system. there are discounts until independence day on bionorm detox. 10% in pharmacies plantain, vam and oshchadnik. read in the august issue of krania magazine. how maidan and the volunteer movement formed a new ukrainian identity.

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15% discounts on lineks forte until independence day in pharmacies psylansky, pam and oskad. every week, the saturday political club helps to understand the processes taking place in ukraine and the world. vitaly portnikov, khrystyna yatskiv, andriy smoliy and invited experts based on facts give their assessment and forecast of the development of events. do you want to understand how our today will affect our tomorrow? see saturday political club every saturday at espresso. verdict with serhiy rudenko is now in a new two-hour format. even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests. foreign experts, inclusion from abroad. about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and

feedback. you can express your opinion on the bad day with a phone survey. turn on and. tune in to verdykt with serhii rudenko from tuesday to friday from 8 to 10 p.m. i welcome you, dear viewers, to the air of the channel. what a conversation we have today it is worth hearing, we will speak with the president of ukraine viktor andriyovych yushchenko. we welcome you. i congratulate you. actually, a full-scale war has been going on for the third year, the war started by russia has been going on for the 11th year, the aggression started by russia against ukraine. if speaking as of now, ukraine defended its independence, subjectivity, sovereignty during this period, and the question is only in the return of certain territories, or the question is precisely in the defense and in the election of both

subjectivity and independence. it seems to me that if you make such an excursion. for 30, 33 years, then a miracle happened, i think that not just many, but i think most people in the world, i would ask them to find ukraine on a map, they would look for it on some other continent, and today being ukrainian is beautiful, proud, starting from the highest...politicians, especially in europe, everyone pays attention to the fact that this is not just a nation, it is a cool nation that is full of principles. which for many are envious, obviously, we ourselves understand that for almost 300 years of this moscow rule, where

everything national, everything identical was excluded from us, we accustomed to foreign heroes, to a foreign culture, to a foreign custom, to a foreign memory, to a foreign church, and so on, and so on, there is no end to this, and we all ... raised our heads in 300 years, remembered that we are a nation that we had one of the largest states in europe, which was 800 years before any muscovy, and in other words, we have mastered this course of national establishment so much that from generation to generation we passed on not just this dream, not just this dream , it's like genetics. it is already in a spiral and passed down to each generation the next, and each subsequent generation had its own leaders, i have many times in polemics,

in discussions, here i give an example, in the 20th century, to be more precise, from november, 17th year, to august, 91th year, many times... times declared independence in different interpretations, six times, and look, carpathian ukraine, it lasted for a day and a half and it was taken from us on the red field, the state of bandera, it lasted almost three days, listen, well, six times, this says a lot that it's a code, it's a nation's code, and so when today we are... talking about 33 years of the latest independence, in fact, this is, you know, our longest national journey in the last 300 years, from the cossack state, from

vegovsky, and this in itself is already amazing, and if we remember that 300 years of non -statehood, we were deprived of our rights 171 times. to speak ukrainian, to have one's own alphabet, to have one's own writing, remember taras grigoryovych's dream, and we are talking about the time, the middle of the last century, taras grigoryovych's biggest dream was to publish a primer in ukrainian, everything, you know, it's heartbreaking it sucks, we just got our primer. one and a half hundred years ago, before that, we were not given a liturgy, nor the right to speak our language, our language, nor to wear our shirt,

god forbid, if not yet dead ukraine sings, well magadan, magadan, and there with white ukrainian bones in the ceiling, this whole taiga and tundra. therefore, in fact, you know, i am proud of the fact that such torments, common, i think, most nations would not have survived, and we also went through the difficult school of our formation, we went through great memorylessness, when after the greatest tragedies in our memory was to erase everything with an eraser so as not to be remembered by children or grandchildren, the most. human tragedies in europe, and despite everything, despite everything, you know, we got to the edge, the edge of this abyss, and today we have become

a state that everyone in the world knows, everyone is proud of, it amazes me how, you know, even in europe, many examples of political ones with reference to what a great national deed, what a great european... deed ukraine is doing today, that ukraine is the bulletproof vest of europe, that many of what ukrainians do in europe, few people would do. actually that one an example is the work we are doing against the greatest evil in the world, against russian fascism, against the greatest chemically pure evil in general, which can be in today's history, this is the moscow occupation that is going through... today ukraine, it has become such a page of universal education for europe and the world, because when you think about it. and give an answer in conscience,

putin as the world knows it today was actually brought up by western politics, putinization, which was adopted by europe, is a product of the last, well, maybe 17 years there, 15 years, when europe thoughtlessly paid putin 1 billion dollars every day, violating all the norms that were adopted both nationally and... european regarding energy quotas on the regional market, violating everything, bringing in 1 billion per day, this is of course what led putin's path to schizophrenia, to recklessness, to the loss of the last parts of the mind, when in fact the world appears a version of fascism, two 21st centuries,

this is what happened before our eyes, and on the other hand, the feat that our nation is doing today, and a nation that 30 years ago , well, more precisely there 35 years ago, when in in 1990, there was a vote for the ukrainian parliament, the ukrainian nation cast 230. votes for the moscow bastards, and that was the name of group 239, so group 239, a few more months pass, in the spring, march of 1991, when the ukrainian nation is asked, then you, you are generally there for a renewed union, what does this independent ukraine mean to you, more than 70% are ukrainians, yes, yes, we are a renewed union, it probably takes another six months to

reach... 91% of ukrainians, no, no, no, no, we are for a sovereign, independent ukraine, this can be analyzed, politically, as for 12 calendar months, the nation of the state, when the tatars were walking, voted for evil, because red, red russia, bolshevism, this is... a separate breed of moscow slavery, which was established in ukraine for 73 years, the time is coming, and we will again vote for them yes, moreover, excuse me, in 1998, if i am not mistaken, how many ukrainians voted for the communist party of ukraine in the verkhovna rada of ukraine? we can formally say that the section of the communist party was preserved in the ukrainian parliament for the longest time.

you won't find them in europe with... stupidity, where are those komunyaks? in in ukraine, they still reigned and were not just in the parliament, but they were the golden card of the parliament, they were lured by money to vote for any law that needs 2.5 dozen votes, but you have to go to the communists, they are sold on at every step, well, i'm up to the fact that i've grown up. for these 33 years , the ukrainian nation, like us, is from that world, which we do not even want to talk about, which , frankly, we are ashamed to talk about, because you know, living in europe and at the beginning of the 20th century having a terrorist organization of the communist party in the parliament russia, and it is, there was never a communist party of ukraine, it was a branch of the russian communist party.

because the soviet union is russia, it is not yes, then in general you approach the fact that we have passed colossally, colossally big milestones in these 33 years, i understand how a large part of people can be dissatisfied with something, but in general we can say that it is a big progress, and if we had this sense of... national consciousness that we have today, we had in the 90s, i think we would be where poland is, where lithuania is, even where bulgaria, even where romania is, we would be in a different class, organization, political system, we would have different friends.