i recently heard an interview of a very good polish historian who came to kyiv, tried to convince his opponent to accept, to accept certain, certain truths, that is, you still mean the gothic, our, our good friend, actually it is possible, that is, i specifically do not called names, i for me. "at the same time, you know, such a friend of ours, who, having such views, he goes to ukraine, shows solidarity, here is a very, very strange situation, which in principle could not happen, that a person with such a narrative , together with this, he is a sincere friend of the country, whose history, whose past, to put it mildly, worries him, the truth, that's what's strange, of course, of course, and here here..." just the moment that

the discussion and these debates and disagreements are not between saints on one side, sinners on the other, that is, scoundrels on one side, righteous on the other side, that is, on both sides of this debate, it can be completely honest from the point of view of both, both sides, there are different , there are different truths to... and because of this, i am talking about the fact that such and such things are probably ethical now, now to pause somewhere, both for one side and for the other side, but what i'd like to add as well is that, well, some elements of the story lend themselves very well to some kind of heroism, other elements lend themselves very well to ... overcoming,

for example, conflicts and contradictions, and for unification, from the point of view of memory, ukrainian, ukrainian memory, what is happening today, what is happening since 2014, is the formation of , the beginning of the 91st year, this is the formation of a virtually new ukrainian nation principles and unfortunately, the last few years, especially the last two, give examples of self-devotion to heroism, which, apparently, is difficult to find even in history, including even ukrainian history, we historians studied some four days of ukrainian independence in kyiv, does it mean , seven or eight months under the german occupation.

the hetmanate, the foundation of the academy of sciences, and so on. we have today, we are on the eve of the independence day celebration, that is, we have, how many 32 years, this is the 32nd anniversary, yes, if i am not mistaken, 32 years of the existence of ukrainian an independent state, 8-9 years, a wanton war, these things, which, therefore, not only changed. society changed us, but they also changed the future, the future writing about history, and this, this should become the basis for the ukrainian unification, the history of the ukrainian unification between 91, 2014 and 2022-23, that is, it is worth paying attention to this history through which we live, bloody, but also tragic and heroic and... posterity will

turn to this history, to these years, to these days, to these nights, in order to find support for themselves, psychological , moral, to find, to find heroes, to understand, to understand are also not difficult choices that people made, it is not only heroism, i think that for us, as historians, it is... this is a difficult task, but we should pay more attention to our last years, for our last decades and try to build a new understanding of the country and ourselves on the basis of this experience. i just want to further clarify such a fundamental question as how the historical responsibility of the state differs from the historical responsibility of the nation, well, i just for illustrative purposes, when we are talking about responsibility. we

put this responsibility on the reich, on the german state as such, and we know that there were states, they were state institutions, they acted in different ways, but they ... were in different relations with the reich, but they were participants in one way or another , as state institutions of the same holocaust, well, let's say the croatian state of pavelic, it had one attitude to the holocaust, and there was the bulgarian state of tsar boris, and it was a different attitude to the holocaust, but all this can be studied precisely as the work of state institutions and as their dialogue, if at all it was then in a normal form, with its own society, but in bulgaria there was a bulgarian demonstration against the deportation of bulgarian jews. ended in success and saving people, but if the people do not have statehood, if individual representatives of this people, let them participate in large numbers in these or other crimes, i mean, not only the holocaust, i mean the volyn tragedy, etc. can we say that the people

who do not have state institutions are just as responsible for this or that great thing crime, as a state institution, as the state as such, because it seems to me... that in our understanding, and in the understanding, by the way, of our neighbors as well, it is somehow equalized, i don't know how correct it is, it is clear that especially in the context of the second world war, especially in the context of the holocaust, there are countries and states that conquer and control other peoples and other territories, give them a certain model of ideological behavior and so on, and usually find a level of collaborators and collaboration, but it's it's it's enthusiastic territory, well, relatively speaking, what is the responsibility of people in a concentration

camp, in the same nazi one, for the fact that they somehow take, participate in some things connected, connected. crimes, we probably don't put a lot of responsibility on it, a little more freedom in the conditions, in the conditions of the occupation, but again it is quite limited, but - the responsibility is certain, of course, and for me it is very important here, for example, i will leave a little from the second world war and from the situation. holocaust, but they are what i will be about speaking, they are connected, this is the issue of today's russian aggression against ukraine, is it putin's war, is it russia's war, and it is clear that putin is a very important figure in this whole, in this whole story, but it is also

a product produced by russian society, since hitler was provoked or produced by german society, and this society. it creates this model of state and this model of behavior and this model of behavior creates this society, so i think what the limit of how much it is some regime that occupied land de jura or de facto, that is an important component, but there is responsibility, there is shared responsibility, there is social responsibility, and especially when it comes to what you do with... this experience of yours, which is negative, which is criminal and so further, how do you treat it, this, this, if we talk about the historical component, this seems to me to be the most important component, well then, if you

turned to the topic of russia, then we can also ask a question here, which was very relevant in the first months war, not much is said about him now, but i i also tried to think about him and now i think... this is not the responsibility of the russian people of russia, but the russians really have their own state, and indeed this state gave birth to vladimir putin in one way or another, and it is not even a matter of national origin, because in the russian leadership there are people of different national origin, serhii shaigu, a tuvan, let's say by ethnic origin, but it is clear that all these people serve russian chauvinism in one form or another, but the peoples of russia, who have quasi-states that... where protect their interests, where their national languages ​​are not studied, where their national culture, their heritage is distorted, where everything is done to prove their second-rateness and second-rateness, they are as responsible as the russians for this war,

remember how at the beginning of the war , even russian propaganda tried to talk about the buryats and the tuvans, and many of us accepted this and ... presented the facts, you see, there were buryats in our village here in the kyiv region, they acted like beasts, and the chechens-kadyrivets even more beastly acted, and as if from the russians, as well as in essence. created this state and this army and this aggression, who need ukraine as their original land, like, the responsibility was transferred to small nations, which in principle are very far from all this, even from europe, but they became much more responsible and cruel, than those who started this war and those who have their own, if you will, state interest in this war, of course, this is a classic. this is imperial imperial practice, that is, you conquer

territories, then you use these territories, this is the population to actually continue its imperialist war, and then you can, you can hide behind them, that is , this is this this is not the first time, it is not the first time that this is happening, that is, all these wild divisions and so on, that is, you can... then say , that it 's not us, it's that asians came somewhere in europe and did something there and so on, but here we have tchaikovsky, we read, we admire ditto and so on and so on, i.e. these these these things these things have already happened, the responsibility of these peoples as such i do not have any concrete formula for what i'm talking about. but i do have a very specific parallel that i think can help us think about this. what is our

responsibility for what the soviet union did in the same eastern europe in 1939, 1940, for what it did in europe after 1945, that is, actually in ukraine - it was not in ukraine. sovereignty, the ukrainians did not have sovereignty, on the other hand, well , the ukrainian party elite was one of the most influential in the soviet union, that is , i studied the kyiv one, i studied the history of the caribbean crisis, well, the key decisions about whether to shoot or not to shoot at an american plane over cuba was decided by two generals, the last name of one was buckwheat, the other was pumpkin, that is... buckwheat and pumpkin, that is, i don't know who they were in terms of self-identity, that is, here, too, the question is ethnic whether it is

territorial, that is, it is a difficult question, but it is a very real and important question, and i think it will be better for us today to answer the question about the buryatians, thinking about us and about our role in the empire and in the soviet union, well it certainly has of great importance. here we talked at the beginning of our conversation about all these new russian textbooks, but the context is also important, if you like, forging in an imperial or non-imperial narrative, even from soviet times, you see, i thought about it, just when i was in boredonka and looked at this shot monument of shevchenko during the shevchenko awards ceremony, that shevchenko was, in one way or another, a soldier of the russian empire, who in fact always mocked, branded and created such an image in his poetry

of this russian empire, on which we were all brought up, which are an alternative to the image of the russian empire that russians know, i mean not even from history books, because it seems to me that culture can act more strongly than history in the soviet union in turuchnik said that the russian empire was oppressed by other peoples, at least until the 17th year. but the students in the schools of soviet russia taught lermontov, they taught pushkin, about georgia, which flourished under the price of friendly bayonets, about the polish uprising, disputes between the slavs among themselves, and this was written by the best russian poets, in beautiful words, in beautiful works, with landscapes, i would say, of those countries that were conquered by the russian army, whether in the caucasus. either in poland or in ukraine, some of the best ukrainian landscapes

were created by pushkin in the poem mazepa, which is essentially an imperial myth about mazepa and a response to the admiration of byron, and on the other hand, there were students from the schools of soviet ukraine, we are all in schools they taught, from moldovan to finnish, everything is silent in all languages, the chureks of saklya, everything is yours, i remember it from childhood, and that's what i would say. could create an anti-imperial narrative, and also pavlo grabovskyi, and also ivan franko, and also lesya ukrainka, all these poets were anti-imperial at the time, as were their russian counterparts. we can say that contemporaries, the best of their russian contemporaries, glorified the empire, and you already know this, it leads to a century of misunderstanding, so you remembered shevchenko's words about from a moldovan to a finn, the finns are also mentioned in the will of alexander pushkin, and

the finnish printer stepei kalmyk should consider it its national poet. and his national poet, yes, yes, yes, that is, this these, these are very, these, these are very different narratives, and they seemed to be present, in particular in ukraine, and one in the lessons of russian literature, the other in the lessons of ukrainian literature, but the question is also that which children it was studied, so, well, there are... creations, which are formed, which are formed by the teacher, and the understanding of what is read is also formed by the teacher, and because of this, i would like to emphasize the importance, the importance of the role of the teacher and not the importance of the role of the interpreter in in all this, in all this history, because non-willing could also happen

happened in fact in any texts, that is... the same shevchenko was appropriated by the soviet, soviet literary narrative, after the end of the soviet union, tamara gundurova wrote, wrote a book about franko not a stonemason, yes, that is, franko was only a stonemason, er, shevchenko was only as a serf in a coat, which, which he, so, to photograph a special for... well, uh, and, uh, it's, it's a question of what we do with our heritage, how we try to understand it, and i joining this conversation now from cambridge, united states america, where great discussions are now unfolding regarding the decolonization of russian or russian-centric

literary history, where in fact almost for the first time in the mainstream, that is, the main... questions are questions about the imperial key imperial narrative of russian literature, which imperialism was recognized as the basis of french, english literature, but somehow, the russian language actually remained the subject of absolute adoration and idealization, and this is now changing, it is changing because of the events in ukraine, and... specifically because of the ukrainian the ukrainian resistance, so i would simply like to say that these processes are not only related to ukraine or the post-soviet space, in general, the image of the post-soviet space, the russian space in the world, and it was

precisely the resistance of ukraine that became the trigger for these discussions. well, you can. to say that ukrainians can be not only witnesses, but also participants in this reinterpretation of the russian imperial cultural narrative and the russian imperial past, because it seems to me that we are not fully aware even of ourselves today we give an account of the role that this russian heritage played in the formation of even the current ukrainian perception of the world, and this is the situation that opened up thanks to the heroism of the ukrainian army, the ukrainian... people, it will not last forever, if we somehow want it to to influence it, we need to be included in these processes, we need to speak, we need to communicate, sometimes it is very difficult, that is , look at the current discussion on the ukrainian internet about good russians, that is, the idea of ​​communication with anyone

is actually excluded, interpreted as possible betrayal. but what does that mean, it means creating at this key moment a ghetto where we remain our own truth, and limit our ability to actually affect the change of larger narratives and perceptions of ourselves and the world around us, again this is a unique opportunity, kind of squandered , which from my point of view would be a crime, well, there is still a big question, to what extent the russian community itself...even the migratory one, even liberally, is ready for discussion, if it does not put this community, i would say, and its cultural-historical preference on a pedestal, because that's how people can... speak out against putin, but they still have no doubts that russia is the center of this entire civilization, everyone who considers either an enemy

or one who's fooling around for the hype, to put it simply, i totally understand what you're talking about, i know people like that, but i also know other people who weren't around until 2022, who are here now and with these people. it is necessary to say, well, i mean that it seems to me that the russian society itself, although b must partly do his own work on mistakes, realize at least the weight of his own culture in the world context, it seems to me that this is also the soviet influence, mr. sergiu, because in the soviet union everyone was sincerely sure that they were aware of the role of their own culture, and that , which can be compared with world cultural values, and this is a complete lie, because soviet culture... existed in a certain isolation from the world cultural context and from the historical context and from the scientific context, and only now people can, have the opportunity to understand

well, the real weight of their cultural and scientific heritage is on the scales of a common history with the world, and the majority does not want to do this, yes, that is, there is a hiding behind an idea, that is, a separate one. civilization, uniqueness and so on, if we are a separate civilization, then of course, of course, everything that happens here is unique, it does not need any dialogue with the surrounding, because it, because it is different, it is different, and, er, this, this, this is, this is a very serious, very serious problem, and, but, uh, changes have begun, and we have the opportunity or to support. these changes or to be isolated and not to support , which means to submit to someone else, to actually

open the way for some interpretations, which , in fact, will be completely different, if not contradictory, compare with our experience, with our ideas, eh, that is, eh... eh , not to knock into the door that was opened by the ukrainian army and the ukrainian people, that was strategic, well then, it is also very important to understand, we can enter any door that, if we ourselves do not consider ourselves to be somehow separate civilization which is constantly trying to reinvent the wheel, and what ukraine should be in europe, in the future, what should be its place in europe, in your opinion, already ending our conversation. well, today ukraine appeared in europe as if in some robes behind the scenes of a knight, i don't

know, a defender of bordering, european bordering, ukraine went to war with the russian army, which. only the finns liked it in the 40th year, the poles for various reasons could not fight on two sides in the 68th year, the czechoslovak did not even try to do this, hungary did not succeed, that is, in such a large industrial, large-scale war, well, we appear as a warrior, and it was not, it was not. our choice was not the choice of ukraine, and eh, in this way we have already entered, the next question is to enter, socially, economically,

civilizationally, culturally, and here, here the biggest question for us is even democracy, although now there are big question marks occur as far as we can survive. military experience and remain a democracy, i still remain an optimist here, but the issue of rule of law, that is , in fact, to what extent, to what extent can we be a people, a nation, a country that will put the law higher, higher than any other ethnic, social. economic and so on, the interests of certain groups, that is, this is a key issue, but it seems to me that it is purely from a military point of view, that is, we, we chose a place, we, we... we, we

create, continue the border, the border of europe further east, that is from my point of view, it is a matter of time, such integration, integration in the sense of a secure europe, and ensuring this security, but culturally, culturally legal integration, under culture, i primarily have, i have a culture of law. this will historically be the biggest for us, thank you, mr. serhiy, once again i congratulate you on the holiday, i congratulate you on the holiday, dear viewers, our guest was the famous ukrainian and american historian serhiy plokhii, see you, good luck.

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