relevant services are working and trying to help all those affected. take care , we wish you a peaceful and safe day, do not ignore the air warning signal, because now there are air warning signals all over the east from sumy oblast to donetsk oblast, i.e. kharkiv oblast, luhansk oblast, do not ignore it, stay in the safest places and be sure to notify for drones and slaves, for weapons, for... for medical equipment, for everything that can facilitate the work of our defenders. well, oksana and i say goodbye for today, but we call you literally after a short pause to be further from the espresso, because ahead is a very interesting interview with the american-ukrainian historian, harvard professor serhiy plokhi about the place of ukraine in europe and how to maintain democracy and the rule of law, in the conversation in just a few minutes, take care and be with espresso. it's all good. sales progress

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the most common allergens. there are discounts until independence day on decatel, 15% in psyllanyk, bam and oskad pharmacies. greetings, friends, i congratulate you all on the holiday and the interlocutors of our broadcast today, ukrainians. and american historian, professor of the department of ukrainian history at harvard university, serhii plohii, i congratulate you, mr. sergey, and i also congratulate you on independence day, thank you very much, i congratulate you on the holiday, i congratulate all the viewers, listeners, on the holiday and you personally on the presentation of the taras shevchenko award, this is a very important award, a very important marker for this award, your award . thank you, i want to talk about

historical memory, and you know, i have to confess to you, it certainly does, it sounds like a sign of bad taste, but i will tell you: there have not been many history books that i read with such interest as the last school textbook of the history of russia, which was written the former minister of culture of the russian federation mydinsky and the rector of the moscow institute of international relations torkunov, because you know, when i read the books of historians, your books, i think that the gate of europe is such a beautiful polychrome from such an analysis of ukrainian history, when i then read medinsky's textbook , for me it's like watching... i don't even know how to compare it, well, some, some comic, from which i try to find answers to the question, what does modern russia breathe, the modern russian elite, how it distorts, distorts ukrainian history, i don't know if you've seen this book, yes, yes, i saw it and actually didn't

read the whole thing, but i paid attention, of course, to the last chapters, and the feeling on the one hand, well, as you say, like a comic book, that is, because in the textbook any approach, any idea is crystallized as much as possible, and this textbook is simply an excellent textbook of today's russian radical nationalism, fascism, imperialism, that is , the term can be any, but on the other hand, you understand that it made from the point of view of impact on... er school children er enough professionally, and that is, blatantly blatant unprofessionalism, historical and very, very dangerous professionalism, when it comes to the way the textbook is formed, and for us, for

historians, it is like putin’s article from the 21st year, on the one hand you want to laugh, on the other hand parties are clearly not laughing, because this, because these are documents that... this is a very important question, you and i studied history in soviet schools, i don't know to what extent it can be said that these history courses really influenced a large number of people and kept in them an idea of ​​history, such which was then essentially destroyed by the collapse of communism, how long do these dangerous narratives stay in the heads of... people, i mean for a long time exactly when the social order is changing, because we always say, here is putin's russia, it can , its time of existence may come to an end, does this mean that in the heads of those people who will learn from these textbooks in russian schools, these narratives

of aggressiveness, disdain for all non-russian imperialism, that they will remain even after putin, of course, they will to remain, since the soviet narrative actually remained for a very long period of time, that is, the so-called laminopad, this is the year 2013-2014, the soviet union ceased to exist in 1991 , and the signs of the marker of soviet history remained, they remained significantly less, or almost did not remain in western ukraine or in the baltic region, where the mobilization... including this protest started during the anniversary of molotov ribbentrop's molotov youth pact, but in a large part, part of the soviet union, in a large part of ukraine, those stereotypes continued for decades,

to a certain extent still continue, and they are displaced not only and not so much by showing that these narratives are somehow scientifically or socially good. but untenable, but they are supplanted when other, other narratives appear, and from my point of view, i wrote about it the same fall of lenin, this, among other things, is also the moment when ukraine refused to live together in a world in which and lenin is a hero, and the victims of the holodomor, that is, the heroes of the victims, and all this is somewhere in one village on... one square and they are celebrated at the same time, that is, this is this schizophrenicism, historical schizophrenicism finally came to an end, and one of these monuments had to be overthrown, it was a monument to lenin, but again it happened in 2013-14 and in a large part of ukraine as a result of a decision

of the verkhovna rada, not as a result of the decision of local councils. well, they will tell you that they actually tried to unite ukraine with such a mix of historical... er holidays or historical memory, do you remember the appeals of ukrainian politicians who said: let's have different heroes in different regions, relatively speaking, in in the west and in center the heroes of the ukrainian insurgent army will be the heroes, in the east the heroes, relatively speaking, will be stakhanov and artem, who , to be honest, have nothing to do with ukrainian civilization itself, of course, i remember it very well, but it was not an attempt to the unification of ukraine, it was an attempt to gather votes in each of the regions, speaking in... in each region, what, what is there, it means that it somehow developed historically, historically

liked, er, and, er, here the question is from one side , really a narrative and continuation of existence of the soviet narrative, on the other hand, this is a more serious question, what should we do with the soviet heritage, the people who were interviewed in the 14th and 15th years are completely ukrainian-oriented. patriotic and so on, they said: well, from the power of the city in donbas, take away the monument to lenin, and what will remain there, there are no other monuments, the city itself was formed in the 20s and 30s, and this , this question is more serious than simply, it means to show that, therefore, the medinan fraudster or, the soviet narrative is, is weak, built on blood. it the question of what is actually ours, our consciousness,

what should we do with the long soviet period, what should we do with the same violinist, what should we do with a politically divided history, that is , this is a more serious question that cannot be solved simply by denying or ridiculing a certain narrative , but can we say that we are the first to solve such questions? i can give you an example of the story of north macedonia. i remember when i first started coming to north macedonia in the years after its independence, its iconostasis remained the national heroes of macedonia, they were members of the communist union and komsomol members, but they fought for macedonian sovereignty within yugoslavia. then the next government tried to replace this historical narrative by appealing to the hellenic heritage, to alexander the great and his father the king. philip, now, i would say, there is some search for new compromises between this communist period,

that is, the supporters of macedonian sovereignty, and the pre-communist period, when macedonia was a significant part of the hellenic civilization, they are looking for themselves, maybe we need to look for ourselves in the east too, as america is doing it, i come to some american city, and there are people who are heroes of some political or cultural battles of the 19th and 20th centuries with the american one. were also created, i apologize, not in the 12th century, this is not athens or rome or kyiv, nevertheless they have their own architectural image and their own image of those they are proud of. ugh, yes, i think, in terms of the number of settlements with the name of athens, america beats greece, that is, they are looking for, looking for roots, looking for the roots are indeed in the classics, but i completely agree with you that this is a search, and what we have... very often looks like irritation on there are other words

for this, of course, on facebook and in the public space and so on, there are there are elements, elements of this search, and we are not unique, that is, we are a country that arises on the ruins of a former empire, a multinational country, with a developed iconostasis and a national narrative, and we are not... we were dropped somewhere on top, so , on some kind of parachute, that is , part of the same elite, the same ones the sixties, they, they are as soviet as they are anti-soviet, that is, it is a natural, it is a natural process of forming a nation from within, from within the empire, and a very difficult process of reconciliation, historical reconciliation. political, that is, no, no, we are not unique, on the other hand, everyone, each

of those post-imperial nations, has its own set of problems, has its own set of, let's say, some positive historical elements, the so-called usable past, which can to be used for this formation of a new idea, and we ukrainians are endowed in this sense. very very good history, that is, there is something to turn to, from the fact that there is kyiv, there are kyiv shrines, to the fact that there is a very developed cossack. century against any invaders, very different invaders, that is, here we have, if we cannot use it, if we cannot agree through a better understanding of history, which means a better understanding of ourselves, well, we

will have no one to blame but ourselves , we are not separated by history, but here is something very important to me. it seems the story is distorted and hidden at the same time because when i resort to some historical events that seem absolutely clear to me, because i believed that it was simply necessary to read and, let's say, the soviet or bolshevik version of history on the contrary, well, conventionally speaking, to change the signs, then i very often come across a situation when it turns out that that simply the events were completely different, that it was not an event in which the conditions are bad. fought against conditional good, and now we ask good for good for bad and vice versa, and understand how it all really happened, and then it turns out that not happened that all these are fabrications, that all this is a myth, such as the famous story of these panfilov heroes, or the details of the famous exploit of zoya kosmodimyanska, or how in the history of the second world war

soviet propaganda always talked about the exploits of soviet pilots, they are definitely were heroic people, but... never reported that, in principle, the pilots of the reich were much more effective and efficient than the pilots of the soviet union, and against this background, of course, all this looks more or less heroic, but together with these are more tragic. the price, the price of each flight becomes much different than it was in soviet propaganda. you can cite a huge number of such examples, and the very fact that we do not know the truth, that we even invent truths for ourselves, trying to somehow evaluate the situation on the contrary, to me. it seems that it is also very dangerous, yes, you know, i am hearing it for the first time and i am hearing it from you, relatively to change it on the contrary, i myself experienced this period, the end of the 80s, 90s, that is, the idea was that that change the sign and and the world, the world will somehow manifest itself, and you will understand it, and this

is part of also existing in the conditions of ... these ideological wars and and and taking a certain certain side, and relative to those of that particular example that you gave of the planes and and the pilots and the heroes and the losses, if i remember correctly, from 40 to 50% of all losses of soviet aviation were related to mechanical failures. planes, that is , from 40 to 50% of losses, that is, this is exactly the reality that you will not understand simply by changing plus, plus to minus and minus to plus, so really the story is very, very multifaceted, and propaganda, what it is, how it works, that is, it is not necessarily an absolute, absolute lie, it also happens that way, but it

takes some aspect of a big problem and highlights it as a as in... as a marker, as a characteristic of the whole problem, and change its plus to minus, well, another aspect can understand this, but not the problem as a whole, and only, only the understanding of this story as a whole, it seems to me, can be the truth that can liberate us, that is, this is this process the process is much more complicated than changing signs. another very important aspect, about which i always think, now, when it comes to the future european integration of ukraine, this is a historical memory that divides ukrainians and their neighbors to the west, but we see that as soon as the slightest aggravation of polish-ukrainian relations appears, it can be about anything, even grain,

immediately the topic of volyn comes up and an official or an intellectual immediately appears who says: until you accept our narrative. you won't get anywhere, literally these days, if you go along zakarpattia region, you will see an absolutely amazing picture, in the areas where the hungarian population lives, you will see billboards that, so to speak, commemorate the trianon tragedy, in the areas where the ukrainian population lives, you will see the same billboards dedicated to the trianon, only there it is written, that this is a triumph of historical justice, and it is happening literally in one ukrainian region in days. wars, and of course it worries me quite seriously, i would say, because i'm just imagining what's going to happen when the real ones start. you understand, not virtual, but real negotiations of ukraine regarding the accession to the european union. and i think, maybe there are tools that would allow us to find a common denominator, namely historical tools, dialogue between

scientists, common history textbooks, which removed all these layers of the past? of course there is, and the only thing required for this is the necessary political will. and it is clear that history and different historical memory itself can provoke some political conflicts, but usually these things recede into the background when politics change, that is, it began the great war of russia against ukraine began, which became a threat not only to ukraine, but it is felt naturally and necessary. these and in poland, and somehow historical, historical debates, at least for a while, receded into the background, and the same polish society

demonstrated a level of solidarity, which means that it was impossible to dream of at all. i am talking about the dominant role of politics in these historical discussions, not in order to remove the responsibility from historians, but in some things, it will be very difficult to agree it is difficult, when there was a war on both sides, and each side considered itself, itself right in this, eh, at some points you can just ideally, so to speak , press pause, that is, it is not always possible, but it is worth it, it is worth it also to think and talk about it, that is, the same polish -ukrainian relations, during the war and the solidarity of the two countries, this may not be the best

time to raise them and discuss them, because i actually recently saw an interview of a very good polish historian, who came to kyiv and tried to convince his opponent to accept, to accept certain well, actually it is possible, that is, i didn’t specifically mention the name, for me, along with this, you know, such a friend of ours, who has such views, he goes to ukraine, shows solidarity, here is such a very, such a strange situation, which in in principle, it could not be that a person is so... worried about the past, true,

that is what is strange, of course, of course, and here is just the moment that the discussion and these debates and disagreements are not conducted between the saints on the one hand, on the other hand sinners, so, on the one hand, the scoundrels, on the other hand, the righteous, that is, on both sides of this debate, it can be completely honest from the point of view of both sides, there are different, there are different truths to a certain extent. and uh, because of this i am talking about the fact that such and such things are probably ethical to put on pause somewhere now, both for one side and for the other side. but what i'd like to add as well is that, well , some story elements lend themselves very well to some sort of heroism, other elements lend themselves

very well to overcoming, overcoming, for example, conflicts and contradictions, and for unification from the point of view of memory, ukrainian, ukrainian memory, what was happening is extremely important. today, what has been happening since 2014 is the formation, the beginning of the 91st year, the formation of a virtually new ukrainian nation on new foundations, and, unfortunately, the last few years, especially the last two, give examples of dedication, heroism , which, perhaps, is difficult to find even in history. including even ukrainian history, we historians studied some four days of ukrainian independence in in kyiv, does it mean eight, seven or eight

months. under the german occupation of the hetmanate, the founding of the academy of sciences and so on, we have today, on the eve of the celebration of independence day, that is, we have, how many 32 years, this is the 32nd anniversary, yes, if i am not mistaken, 32 years of the existence of the independent ukrainian state, 8-9 years of wanton war, these things that... so, not only changed society, changed us, but they also changed the future writings about history, and this, this should become the basis for ukrainian unification, the history of ukrainian the union between 91, 2014 and 2022-23, that is, it is worth paying attention to this history through which we live, bloody, but also...

tragic and heroic, and her descendants will turn to to to this history, to these years, until these days, until before these nights, in order to e find support for myself, psychological, moral, to find, to find heroes, to understand, to understand also not the difficult choices that people made, it is not only heroism, e , i think that... for us, as historians, this is a difficult task, but we should pay more attention to our recent years, for our last decades, and try to build a new understanding of both the country and myself, based on this experience. i just want to further clarify such a fundamental question as how the historical responsibility of the state differs from the historical responsibility of the nation, well, i

just... for the sake of illustration, when we talk about responsibility for the holocaust, we put this responsibility on the reich, on the german the state as such, and we know that there were states, they were state institutions, they acted in different ways, but they were in different relations with the reich, but in one way or another were participants, as state institutions of the same holocaust, well, let's say the croatian state of pavelic, it was one attitude to the holocaust, and there was the bulgarian state. tsar boris and it was a different attitude to the holocaust, but all this can be studied precisely as the work of state institutions and as their dialogue, if at all it was in a normal form with its own society at that time, well, in bulgaria there was a bulgarian demonstration against the deportation of bulgarian jews ended in success and saving people. but if the people do not have statehood, if individual representatives of this people, let them participate in these or other crimes in large numbers, i mean.

even not only the holocaust, i mean the volyn tragedy, etc., can we say that a people who do not have state institutions are just as responsible for one or another great crime as a state institution, as the state as such, because it seems to me that that in our understanding and in the understanding, by the way, of our neighbors as well, it somehow equates, i don't i know how correct it is, it is clear that, especially in... in the context of the second world war, especially in the context of the holocaust, there are countries and states that conquer and control other peoples and other territories, impose on them a certain model of ideological behavior and so on , and of course they find the level of collaborators and collaboration, but these are these are these captured territories, well in... well speaking,

what is the responsibility of the people in the concentration camp, in the same nazi one, for the fact that they somehow take, participate in some things connected with crimes, apparently, we do not attach much responsibility to this, a little more freedom in the conditions, in the conditions of the occupation, but again, it is quite limited, but... but - the responsibility is probably unconditional, and for are very important to me here, for example, i will leave the second world war and the holocaust situation a little, but they are what i will talk about, they are connected, this is the issue of today's russian aggression against ukraine, is it putin's war, is it russia's war, and...