to consensus, you need to go back in there and try again. this could get dragged out. brian: interesting. taylor: we'll follow it all the way no matter how long it gets dragged out. we're following your money as we down you down to 2:00 p.m. stocks are falling in broader retreat on rate account worries. there are concerns if we are going to get a rate cut. i think the bond market would tell you maybe not getting a rate cut. brian, you mentioned weak five-year auction yesterday, a weak seven year today. that is pushing yields up to the higher end of the range. brian: buyers don't like it. they are thinking rates will stay higher. that is what the market thinks with inflation in america. taylor: higher yields sometimes means higher growth but higher deficits. i agree. "making money" with charles payne starts right now. charles: thank you all very much. good afternoon, i'm charles payne this is

"making money." breaking right now the markets as you can see are under pressure, turns out there is counter-force even more powerful than artificial intelligence. we're talking surging bond yields. phil blancato, piper sandler, michael kantrowitz are to start us off. what do endless shrimp at red lobster and janet yellen have in common? we might find out the hard way. tweet me. we're live at the courthouse with the very latest there and the impact on the election and potentially on the economy. you don't want to miss my takeaway on things getting even choppier and how to keep your head on a swivel but also stay cool at the same time. all that and so much more on "making money". ♪. charles: all right, let's start first and foremost, folks, with the fact it has been a really strong run for the stock market. so over the last 30 days, 23 has seen the s&p 500 higher, right?

so, i mean of the last 30 weeks, 23 weeks, i mean that is huge. it only has happened a few times in history. we're in sort of rarefied company. it does show you that hey, it was pretty good and of course going all the way back to 1989, the last time this has happened to a degree it has felt stealthy. that brings us to the point this is unique market. we all know it is grand slams the "magnificent seven," they enjoyed meteoric growth. recently it has been the magnificent one, nvidia. look at this folks. it is really intriguing. they had a market cap in october of 2022 of $286 billion. coming into today, $2.8 trillion. think about the kind of wealth. by the way anyone could have participated in this wealth. that's why i call the stock market the greatest wealth machine in history. of course it created a problem though. everyone, including most hedge funds are loaded to the gills with these names, right?

everyone has exposure to the "magnificent seven," and i know many will point to, solid performances recently, you know, take a look for instance, year-to-date, utilities have done well. they have done better than tech stocks, right? you have had some areas that have done well, energy has done well. here's the thing though, by the way, only two sectors are down for the year but there is another way of looking at this and we've had a lot of guests who have come on in the last couple months, say go for equal weighted this takes out all the market cap stuff. this is the problem with equal weighted, timber. it absolutely crashed. it has done nothing against cap weighted this is unfortunate, this is one of the more popular trades of the market. listen, every time these big names, high-flyers start to sort of stall, everyone says shift gears. so far shifting gears you've been massively underperforming. so where are we right now? well, the market right now, the lead horses all these overbought names we know.

communication services, technology, utilities, everything else is neutral. energy coming into day was oversold. the only sector that was oversold. the big question though, if you can't buy these, what can you buy? what can fill the void? can this void even be filled? it is a big, big question. it has been a big dilemma for investors for a long time. my first guest actually wrote last week about barbelling your portfolio. he says it's not the answer. so let's bring in piper sandler, chief investment strategist, michael kantrowitz. mike, outside of buying quality, the answer that frustrates me the most when i have on guests, just do the barbell approach, it is pretty simple. you are saying there are times you can use this approach but not right now, right? >> yeah i think you do a barbelling strategy, i guess when you really have low conviction and are extremely uncertain and i think you know the reason higher quality and larger companies have outperformed in the last

year-and-a-half is because their earnings have been better there is no doubt about that. there is no uncertainty about that. on flip side, smallest companies, small cap companies are biggest underperformers. their earnings deteriorate as they're sensitive to the higher interest rates than large cap. charles: you have one of your reports. i want to share it with the audience, the barbell approach, you say, hey, an alternative would be a balanced approach. >> yeah. charles: this is a balanced approach. outperformers, relative performance to barbell. obviously it has done extraordinarily well this has gone book to 1985. >> the idea you don't want the two extremes of the investment universe. for example, if you had half your portfolio in megacaps and half your portfolio in small caps you would have not done very well because half of that

portfolio has not performed at all in the last two years, the small caps. you just would have increased your volatility and risk a lot because of that exposure to the weaker parts of the market. we prefer, you know if that was the option, prefer kind of moving towards the middle. instead balanced at the ex-extremes, be more in the center to avoid a lot of that volatility and don't sacrifice your portfolio to really low quality areas of the economy and the market. charles: right. real quick, folks. he is talking value on one side, growth on the other, go with the middle. middle has actually been doing pretty well here. >> yeah. charles: let me ask you, in one of your reports you talk about utilities. you say it can be the iron man sector. i love the information you gave on iron man football. i never knew that. golly that was the day when men were men. you let out five reasons utilities can be the iron man sector. i think middle one is a.i. play. lay it out for the audience what

it means for their portfolio particularly as volatility picks up. >> i can add a sixth one we wrote about as a follow-up. utilities are trading like a risk-on part of the market which is not something i thought, those words would ever come out of my mouth. certainly because of the a.i. theme and because of risk on, so higher beta stocks were, lower quality stocks have really only gone up in the last year-and-a-half, when interest rates have come down. obviously utilities are a rate sensitive sector that outperform when rates come down. it has been combination of lower interest rates from, you know, early in april, not so much in the last week and a.i. that's propelled those utility stocks to trade like risk-on strategies. the second reason why i like that group is because if we do get into a hard landing economic scenario and credit spreads widen out, we do really see a broad-based systemic drop in the

economy, then utilities become kind of the bastion of stability. charles: right. >> so they can be risk-off play as well. charles: right. they have always had that role. that was always their traditional role, right? the ultimate safe haven. get a nice dividend, cash is steady. speaking of the economy slipping right, i'm reading all over the place people comparing your recession indicator with the sahm rule things like that. a lot of similarities, the number unemployed is the numerator of rates that may be only thing that is different. what i thought was intrigue about this is the signal. it worked really, many times. just how close are we potentially going into recession? >> well, you know, charles, i don't like the word recession because i think it mine as lot of different things to a lot of different people. obviously the 07 reference comes about. so the recession is a hard word to explain.

i rather think about it, is unemployment going to continue to grind higher? i say yes. is the economy going to continue to broadly muddle along? i think yes. i don't think the economy will fall off a cliff n that context i don't think we're close to that. i think the labor market is softening under the surface for a while now. that will continue. there are a lot of tailwinds in the economy like low oil prices, fiscal spending, a massive wealth effect, flexible labor market, boomer generation with a lot of wealth that could moderate the economic downturn that we expect to continue. i don't think that's a terrible backdrop for equities to see the unemployment rate grind higher, helping bring inflation down, get us a few rate cuts from the fed. charles: right. >> to me that is kind of more of this goldilocks type of environment which traditionally doesn't mean higher unemployment but in this case i think it does. charles: all right. and by the way i got to go but my number i think is 4.1. i think that is the number that

gets the fed to move. do you have a number that you think can trigger the first rate cut from the fed with the unemployment rate? >> i would agree with that just looking at the unemployment rate. that is their target for the next year f we hit that in the next few months, they will have to raise their target most likely. probably that would be, anything above that would certainly be a surprise because they're not forecasting it. charles: great stuff, michael. we covered a lot. i always appreciate you. >> take care. charles: folks, speak of recessions the yield curve yesterday, "wall street journal" took a shot at it, right? it has been the most popular recession predicting tool of all time, it hasn't worked maybe it is broken or maybe it is rusty. i want to bring in mosaic chief strategist, phil blancato this is "wall street journal" article yesterday. essentially you have the inverted yield curve you get the shorter term rate above the long. they use a one year and 10-year. a lot of people use two and 20. whatever it doesn't matter. it happened in a long time.

i think we're at a record right now. >> we are. charles: typically, folks these are great lines here. you have inversion, recession, inversion recession, inversion recession, inversion recession, inversion recession, inversion recession, inversion, nothing, it doesn't work anymore all of sudden? >> this time it was different. this time we hiked interest rates because the economy was hot. we rescued the economy by printing a whole bunch of money. pushed all the cash into the system. the inversion is what the fed did to save us rather than cooling off an economy. it has proven to be different. you see this methodally grind lower on inflation, why it is taking so long to get there and the fed is not out of the way yet. charles: possibility of rate hikes, that completely off the table? >> i think they put themselves in a box saying they won't do that anymore. but by the same token they're not there yet. to michael's point, this is gold goldilocks, full employment, lots of wealth from the roaring

stock market and housing market, what happens because of higher wages getting these numbers down to 2% will be really difficult that means higher for longer. charles: pce friday from the cleveland fed. is there anything on here saying they're right? core comes in where they think. you know, the core is here. headline, i mean, if all of this goes according to plan, would the street have a sigh of relief or still more work to do? i mean we're getting close to 2%? >> this is why the market rallied this year. not because we have tremendous earnings growth. 5% wasn't bad. charles: right. >> nvidia killing to the points made already. i would argue take some profits. certainly when you look at this this market is what the fed might do, rates come down, we're still not there. put a few more points on the s&p 500. we're not there yet. i think that is the problem for the next few months. charles: all right. let's talk about one of the gripes of folks who watch in the market. that's the concentration of

leadership. usually we talk about the top 10 this is percentage of the top five stocks, you know never have we have the top five stocks 27% of this market. is this a pro or a con in your mind? does this kind of skew weakness ors it it skew opportunity? >> opportunity. i will disagree with mike a bit. i think he is right you want to hide out in large caps right now. i like dividend and volatility. nothing lasts forever especially priced to perfection. the market i take other side of small cap trade. every time fed cuts rates small caps clobber large caps by 50%. we're not there, at least value names be prepared to go into nall smaller names when the fed cuts. charles: you got names sharing with us. could have sworn you were in carnival cruise? >> i did. made a bunch of money we'll do it again. what i like karn central they're finally making money. post-pandemic is demand craze. this is all-time high in

bookings. secondly profit, could be scenario they make at least 15% earnings growth. biggest cruise operator in the world. demand is through the roof. the american consumer is not fatigued. they're out spending money. carnival cruise it. charles: cwt a water stock? >> they own several different states in the which is, expect a double in the next 30 years. these are safety names. i think we're in a time of volatility. i know it is a good market. i'm afraid of next two months. 2 1/2% dividend, 15% earnings growth. 10% cash on cash. this company does really well. great margins. it is safe. why not have safe in your portfolio. charles: water never goes out of style. >> we're never in a drought. charles: thanks for the shoutout. speaking of shoutouts we're celebrating the 10th anniversary of "making money" with charles payne. thank you all for being here with us. we'll be right back after this.

>> hey, charles, it is bret in washington d.c. listen i want to say congratulations 10 years, 10 years "making money" with charles payne. i made money with charles payne. have you made money with charles payne. happy anniversary. i hope you make a lot more money with charles payne. congrats on 10 years in the chair.

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charles: so on may 8th, the cfra increased their 12 month target for the s&p 500. remember, it was 5600. they had been at 5250. that new target was informed by three things, fundamental, technical and historical factors. i want to bring in now their chief investment strategist sam stovall because, sam, you know, today not withstanding this market has been on absolute tear since you guys increased your target. it was prescient obviously. i want to go back down the checklist to educate the audience. what made you make the move? for instance, let's start with fundamentals, what fundamental improvement. s you see at the time that gave you the comfort and confidence for you to make that move, you and your team? >> first off, charles, let me say happy anniversary. i always thought you were a 10. charles: [laughter] thank you very much. >> in terms of forecasts, what

we do we maintain a rolling 12 month price target mainly because our equity analysts look 12 months down the road and they compare the intrinsic value of the stocks that they follow and if the value of that stock is higher than our forecast for the market, they make it a buy. if it is less than the market they make it a sell. so what i do is, i include, in terms of fundamentals where earnings are going. obviously we just completed q1 earnings and growth has come in much stronger than expected. also we're looking for almost 15% earnings growth in 2025. i also look to technicals. so basically fundamentals tell you what but technicals tell you when and from a point and figure chart technique by looking at the target prices of the stocks in the s&p it's also implying a near 10% price appreciation and then historically how does the market typically do in election

years and after? and so that 5610 target right now represents about an 8% price appreciation. so, i'm not reaching for the stars but i am certainly saying that i think this bull market will continue. charles: yeah, but i do want to say, hey, you know what, a lot of firms started to make adjustments after your firm did that and, to be quite frank with you, the targets have been limited. 5600 one is one of the of the more aggressive targets. on technical side, you mentioned point and figures. do you use moving averages or traditional double tops, those kind of things? right now your old target was 5250. i think that is key support on the downside if we pull back and hold i think it is another buy signal. >> i believe the same way. we recovered everything we lost in the 5 1/2% pullback on may 15th. historically we advanced another

three to four months gaining another five to 8%, what we basically treaded water. so i still think that the weakness that we're seeing right now will not result in a new five plus percent decline. that is something that we'll likely get pushed out into later this summer. >> right. >> but also if we do end up bottoming in the next decline by july 31, history tells us we'll still be up for the year. charles: 20 days ago you were overweight communication services, energy, financials and technology. you still in those sectors, you still like those? >> sure because we, again, our focus is 12 months down the road. right now we're looking at red ink. we're looking at defensive doing better than the cyclicals because the concern is, i like to say that a.i. is what's driving technology but ei, earnings and inflation is driving the rest of the market and right now with worry that maybe we have to put the possibility of a rate hike back on the table which we think is

highly unlikely, that's why investors are getting concerned because the fed will be, take longer in order to reduce interest rates, but we think that we will be seeing a nice spike in the market after the election has run its course and it will likely carry over into the first half of next year. charles: sam, we'll put your three of your current buys on the screen right now. i'm not sure we'll have time to go over all of them. start with one that caught my eye. clean harbors, i discovered diss stock after hurricane katrina. i never heard of the company. i started to follow it then. it was amazing moneymaker for a long period of time. why do you like it now? >> we're following your lead, actually. actually the company offers disposal solutions through its environmental service business which we see as a multiyear growth engine amid tightening regulations on water pollutants. focusing on clean water, that is what this company does.

charles: before i let you go, what is your top concern right now? >> well, one of my top, well the top concern is that the fed will be slower to lower interest rates and that actually, you know, we have no rate cuts at all this year. we're still focusing on two and then we'll add four more in 2025 but should we find that the fed is going to sit on their hands through the rest of this year, i think that could make tough sledding between now and year-end. charles: all right. sam, thank you so much. not only are you great but we always learn something from you every time you're on the show and that's what we appreciate. thanks a lot. >> thank you, charles. charles: all right, folks at the to of the show i kind of teases what does unlimited endless slim and janet yellen have in common? tweet me @cvpayne. when you hear the answer you may want to go and hide. >> happy 10th birthday to

"making money" and my great pal charles payne, another 10 on the way. ♪.

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commercials from red lobster to appetizing. it help drive the company into bankruptcy along with horrible management of the company's real estate assets. i can't help but wonder if janet yellen seen these cop americaals. maybe she sin inspired by them. yesterday there was endless treasury auctions, 69 billion in two year notes, 69 billion, another 70 billion of five-year notes by the way like popiel, 44 million in seven years. golly. here's the thing, it is part of a plan, actually onslaught of issuance. this is where we are right now, in terms of financial, this is the crisis, how much we have to raise as a nation. this is absolutely nuts. my next guest says janet yellen cannot expect a strong economy with higher spending and higher taxes. want to bring in chief economist

daniel lacalle. are you saying we can't just tax-and-spend our way into eternal prosperity? >> absolutely, thank you very much, charles, and congratulations on your 10th anniversary. charles: thank you. >> it's impossible, it is impossible. one thing we need to learn that nothing is free and, that inflation is an implicit default. what is actually happening right now is that the treasury is issuing bonds like there is no tomorrow and ultimately, what that means is, that it's completely sabotaging any type of effort from the federal reserve to combat inflation. furthermore, all of that money printing, because deficit spending is printing, is ultimately fueling a lack of confidence in the treasury bonds elsewhere. we're seeing how china is reducing its exposure to the u.s. dollar which means reducing

exposure to treasurys. so it's very concerning to see that yellen and the biden administration think that they're going to cut the deficit by increasing taxes. charles: daniel, here is the thing, you used the term fiscal nightmare, i'm on the same page as you but it is economists out there that keep telling them they can get away with it. some economists they come on the show they brag how quickly the u.s. has recovered now. here is the thing they never talk about. not only did we dole out more money than anyone else, $4.4 trillion from the pandemic, not any other country doled out the money, the citizens, whatever stimulus checks they got they kind of held on to it. i kind of wonder is it too early to be bragging about this? >> it is very early to be bragging about this, because we know it never works and that is the most important thing. there has never been an episode of true fiscal consoledation coming from higher taxes and

more importantly, of course if you increase debt by two trillion, of course you're going to get out a little bit of gdp, 1.2 trillion, of course you are, but the problem is the fiscal situation is becoming a nightmare because in a record revenue year with high growth. charles: yeah. >> you cannot cut the deficit. if you cannot cut the deficit, because it is a spending problem. charles: right, right. jim rogers used to always say, let me, show me a trillion dollars and i will show you a good time as well. a lot now being made of the fact that there is interest payments, people are now being shocked because, they're being compared to what we spend on defense for instance, or education. here our net interest outlays, even as total deficits maybe goes sort of sideways, that gets bigger and bigger. this hamstrings the nation, doesn't it? this stops where we can go as nation, doesn't it. >> of course. you know, i live in the eurozone, i come from the future.

i have seen this before. you always say, oh, don't worry, nothing happens if we increase deficit spending, then interest payments go through the roof. then you end up like japan, spending, the largest chunk of the budget only on interest expenses, even if there is no recession and even if interest rates are low. charles: right. >> so what you're basically doing is leading the economy to stagnation. charles: hey, got less than a minute to go. so we have a spending problem, we all know that. if they raise 10 trillion, they spend 15 trillion. if they raise 15 trillion they spend 20 trillion. here is the growth ever spending. 81% of it apparently can't be touched. where do we cut, where do we find a place to slow down pending? >> obviously there needs to be pension reform. obviously needs to be health care reform that reduces expenditure and increases competition. obviously those things need to happen but also the government cannot just increase mandatory spending and discretionary

spending at the same time. there needs to be some administration there. so, the process, it needs to grabbed all but it has to come -- gradual it has to come with decisive action. it can't be nothing can be cut, let's destroy the u.s. dollar, destroy the u.s. economy. that never works. i repeat you will not find a keynesian solution to the united states when it failed in japan, it failed in the euro area and it will also fail in the united states. charles: yeah. of course the good news though, when it fails here, it will fail spectacular, because we do things better than everyone else. daniel, thank you very much, my friend, appreciate it. bring in quadratic, interest rate volatility hedge etf portfolio manager, nancy davis. great having you on the show. is there a acronym, that is mouthful of the name of your firm? this is something high on your radar as well, this treasury issuance. it is crazy.

the bond auctions go off. two year 60 billion, five-year 70 billion. five-year got wobbly. market fell apart. pressure today another 44 billion. i guess it was received a little bit better. to daniel's point we're having trouble finding buyers for all this stuff. >> one place that is actually buying here, the treasury is doing buybacks. that is one thing a lot of people are not talking about is these buybacks put in place around silicon valley bank but the treasury is going back to provide liquidity to the market by cleaning up these off the run bonds and it sort of backdoor qe, even though the fed is doing quantitative easing the treasury is out doing buying today -- quantitative tightening. charles: what you explain the system, the federal reserve buys these bonds from the federal government. they take what they make from those bonds, they give it back to the federal government. take money out of this pocket, put it in this pocket, then they

take it back. it sounds so confusing. it gets more complicated but by the same token is the powderkeg getting larger in the process? >> it is a washing machine. turn around who is buying our debt? it is treasury today. so i think there is a lot of issuance going on but there is also a lot of shenanigans going on. it is important for investors realize, all investing involves risk, treasury bonds have rate risk and default risk. the rest of the world has been financing our debt. we've been really fortunate, you can see that with the inverted yield curve but that's not normal. at some point long-dated debt on the u.s. should be higher interest rate than short-dated debt. when that happens, i think equity markets could be in a rude surprise. charles: so the, when the inversion goes away? >> when, typically when the recession starts is when the curve starts to the normalize. it is inverted now but as we come out of inversion it is typically kind of a precursor to

recession. charles: yesterday we got consumer confidence came in a little better than expected after three consecutive months going down. a lot of folks pulled out the pom-poms but within there there was certain issues. you even took issue with the report, right? >> i did. appliances, consumption, it is funny numbers. charles: got saved by coffee machines and refrigerators, huh? i did see from wells fargo, noticed jobs plentiful that number has come down tramatically. come down at a pace usually associated with recession. feels like wall street is too comfortable that there is no recession around the corner. you talked about the inverted yield curve. could we be closer to potential recession than anybody admits? >> you have to be aware and afraid because nobody is talking about it, exactly to your point, charles. when everybody thinks something is going to happen, it is usually the opposite that happens. so all your economists coming in saying everything is rosie, you all know economists don't know how to make money for the most

part. time to be very afraid. charles: let's talk about making money in this environment. it is obvious, confident in all the swagger the market seems to have. couple days like the last two days all of sudden it is gone. where are you looking, how are you helping your clients make money in this environment? >> we're giving access to the rates market with the funds at quadratic. a lot of people in the financial portfolio will have stocks and bonds but most of net worth is in real estate. most professional real estate investors go it to hedge the rate risk. regular people don't necessarily have access. charles: this is way of doing it with your product? >> we q up the rate market to given arguably largest asset class in the world is the interest rate markets. charles: nancy, great seeing you. the best election will be a big deal for the bond market, folks. rebecca walser is here to make that connection right after

this. >> charles, we hear you guys have a birthday at "making money." we're so proud of you. [applause] teaching us how to make money for 10 years. >> 10 years. that's a big deal. lawrence was just telling us he watches your show and you've made him a lot of money. >> very nice. i just googled what you get somebody on their 10th anniversary. as it turns out the answer is aluminum. so i have a "fox & friends" tank ard, charles, for you. it says steve. have it that way. >> congratulations our friend. ♪. did i read this? did i get eggs? where are my keys? memory and thinking issues keep piling up? it may be due to a buildup of amyloid plaques in the brain.

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there's a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don't have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. charles: all right, folks, jury deliberations have begun in the new york versus trump criminal trial. today the judge, now giving the jury instructions and well, let's say game on. i want to go to lydia hu, who happens to be outside of the court house with the very latest. lydia. >> reporter: hey there, charles. those deliberations by the jurors got underway a little after 11:30. they had a lunch break. so far no notes or questions from the jurors that we're aware of. seems they are continuing conversation amongst themselves. as to what exactly are they deciding? well the judge instructed them, this is the essentially the question before them, whether defendant, that's donald trump, made or caused false business,

excuse me, false entries in business records and did so with the intent to defraud, with the intent to aid or conceal another crime? when it comes to that other crime there are three theories the prosecution has advanced that is a violation of the federal election campaign violation act, a state election law, in the state of new york and also tax violations f all that sounds confusing because it is. imagine being a juror and receiving those instructions for roughly an hour, read to you by the judge out of a document that is longer than 50 pages and not being able to take those instructions with you into the deliberation room. pretty complicated stuff. now, because this is the business network i want to mention something to you, charles, that piques my interest. i was curious about what district attorney alvin bragg, who is bringing this case against donald trump said about this indictment when it was handed up almost a year ago, april 4th of 2023 and he said in part this about the

indictment of these 34 charges, quote, manhattan is home to the country's most significant bismarckket. we cannot allow new york businesses to manipulate their records to cover up criminal conduct. so in essence, charles, alvin bragg is saying he is bringing this case to essentially protect the business community here in the state of new york and what is so fascinating to me about this, in the year since this indictment handed out we've seen that civil case brought by the new york attorney general, letitia james resulted in nearly half a billion dollar fine against the former president and so i would be curious to know whether businesses in the state of new york would agree whether these elected officials are bringing these cases essentially to protect the business community here? granted that is not the question before the jurors. they are having a very specific question about the 34 counts, nonetheless it is the business network. i have thought i would mention that to you as we contemplate this case, we wait for any signs from the jury. send it back to you. charles: that is great thinking

there, laid you. but i think the business community are not being protected but possibly could be persecuted. we'll see. thank you so much. you reported so well from there since this whole thing began. i have to tell you folks, i'm not sure how much the verdict will affect the outcome of the election but i will tell you this, piper sandler came out with interesting research about how big of a deal this is for the bond market. i want to bring in walser wealth management president rebecca walser. rebeccah, 10-year treasury curve could rise if biden wins. they actually put a pretty good illustration to kind of show. biden here, yields going higher. of course under president trump, and then here's the thing, when president trump was elected, i will never forget, you and i both scour these numbers, animal spirits instar assistantly, instantly. market exploded nfib exploded.

any metric that measures animal spirits within the business and investment community soared. would i suspect this would be the same thing this time around as well? >> the thing i will say you, charles, this is actually a bad thing. i know investors want to see yield. charles: some want to see yield, but to your point, bond yields are higher last two days and the stock market is getting hammered. >> the reason i suspect this is the case, biden as 7.32025 trillion budget, he will spend and spend and spend. he will expect an accommodative fed. we're pushing rate cuts so much. has anyone stopped to say why, why are we pushing rate cuts? they keep telling market is strong, why do we need rate cuts? what this is telling me we're in the position if we do not keep stimulating if we don't have easy modern monetary theory, our economy will crash. it has been built so high on

lower for longer it can't sustain higher for longer, it has to cut. that is the beginning of a debt spiral and collapse of a currency. we don't want higher yields. the reason they're higher under biden, to your point, you have how much the treasury is buying itself that will have to continue under accommodative presidency. >> that is sleight of hand. we need austerity. we can't afford of non-discretionary interest payments on a yearly basis. charles: i don't know either party is ready for austerity. >> i know. charles: president biden is the best president in history for wealthy americans, particularly the elites. with someone like 73 degrees, scott rasmussen did this poll, the top 1%, how would the route come be if only people with college degrees were able to vote. elites said 69% of them would be better. they actually said 69% would be better. overall voters think 15% would

be better making informed choices. talking about the same folks had college protest. >> yes. charles: look at college protests this is tuition, pell grants. elite schools had encampments everything else. these are the folks who want to be only ones who can vote in america. these people have all the money, still have all the outrage, still have encampments, intimidating fellow students, that is who we want to be in charge of our nation, only right to vote. >> that is like economists believe it will go forever. this is all the people that will be voting. reality, this is a bill to be paid. we're able as world's reserve currency to leverage that position, really since 1944, but we've been able to leverage it to our benefit. that is ending. people don't want to hear reality, to daniel's point he said earlier it never works. you will pay the bill at some point. people if we can implement some measures before it collapses great. charles: what would we measure?

>> what is the smallest step in the right direction. >> entitlements have to get reformed. all the people in the country getting medicaid benefits, why is that happening? there is lot we're giving away in this country we don't understand we do. that has to be paid by taxpayers it gets paid by debt. that's what we're doing. charles: i don't think people realize you can live in the country never have to work. i know people who never had their job in their 60s. >> able-bodied people. charles: able-bodied people, never worked a single day in their lives. that is the crux of the problem. >> greece, that period they went through, people were outrage. >> germany, you guys need austerity. now they don't want any austerity. thanks, rebecca. >> thank you. charles: still more to come on my take of this economy, why i think things will get a lot choppier. we'll be right back. >> charles, you think i'm a big fan, doing what you do best,

helping others. >> a happy 10 years for our friend. >> thank you for always letting me speak my mind. thank you for pushing back on me when i need to get pushed back on, but always letting me make my case. ♪.

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charles: listen, i have some brilliant folks who come on the show, but i disagree with a lot of them when they suggest the economy is on autopilot p. not only that, i think things are going to get a lot choppier. this is a $26 trillion economy. take a look at this, today aber come by and fitch and dick's, full disclosure, my subscribers have 'em, people love 'em. but they have unique offerings, right? it's not like this came out of nowhere. and look at american airlines. we've got record air travel, and this stock is getting absolutely hammered. by the way, you see that green arrow? wasn't long ago they actually offered higher guidance. today management if did a 1800,

fired the chief commercial officer, and the stock is getting cleaned. i think this could be a harbinger for the broader economy. i keep talking about that great line from the sun also rises. question: how did you go bankrupt? answer: two ways, gradually then suddenly. of course, ernest hemingway. studying the declining economy will not come out of left field. look at delinquencies, right? they are piling up. and if you look at the credit card curve, that's parabollingic. it's going straight up. and when they start adding up student loans, forget about it. as an investor though, here's the problem. you've got to have exposure to the stock market. it is the greatest money-making 345 chien in history, so you've got to be in it to win it. just don't be flat-footed. maybe have more cash than normal so when something happens, you're there to scoop up the bargains with both hands. that's the way we like to do it on "making money." right, liz claman? liz: s&p is about two-thirds of

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