number, core pce on consumer inflation. rafael bostic head of of the atlanta fed came on at the top, he said we don't need to see inflation coming down to 2% to see a rate cut. what do you think of the numbers? expectation is coming in 2.8%. >> i think that is right, high twos range. they don't need to consider 2% before they get rate cut because i don't think it gets 2% flat anytime soon. you have to get comfortable in the 2 1/2 to 3% range. we see it not not raiding. [closing bell rings] ross, thank you very much. here's the bell. markets close lower ahead of all that important data tomorrow. three days of losses. we're going to see you tomorrow. ♪. david: hello, everyone, welcome

to a special ed digs of "kudlow." i'm david asman in for larry kudlow. let's take a live look at the new york state supreme court in lower manhattan. there it is, for day two deliberations of donald trump's criminal hush money trial. the court began this morning with the judge rereading 29 pages of instructions suggested by the 12 jurors, plus key witness testimony from michael cohen or david pecker. no timeline how deliberations will last or how soon a verdict will be delivered. trump attorney alina hob ba will weigh in during the show. let's bring in fox business lydia hu, andy mccarthy, former u.s. attorney and fox news contributor live outside the courthouse. i have two for one on this shot. thank you both for being here. lydia, we put together, fox news put together a mockup what the jury might have. it is a list of all 34 counts.

they relate to that many of many of misdemeanor of falsifying business records. they have to deal with one of three underlying causes, is that the proper that is taking place here? yeah that is intended to be a guide for the jurors, to help them walk through what each one of the counts are, to indicate what the decision is guilt or innocence with respect to each one of them. i would love to tell you we are able to evaluate the actual document the jurors have in hand. it is not available to the public. that is extremely frustrating for so many of us. i can tell you what we believe is not on the document, andy, excuse me, david, that's the underlying unlawful acts that the jurors would also have to find in order to be able to check guilty for any one of those 34 counts and that is so,

seems so wrong because what that mean is, if they find guilty, we won't know why. we won't know whether the scores found the presence of a fica violation or a tax issue or some other falseification of other document. we won't have that answer and that just seems to be incredibly mystifying. david: well, andy, the other thing that the defense didn't have was a clear definition of what those underlying, underlying crimes were. that is the way it was presented in the indictment. they talked about other crimes without being specific. one of those crimes, by the way, wasn't even mentioned until after the defense rested. in other words, how can you defend yourself from charges that aren't mentioned until your defense is actually over? >> yeah. i think to lydia's point, we're at the stage dave looking what the outputs are, but the real

problem in this case is the inputs. you have a statute that doesn't require the government to even indicate that, who would know that bragg had authority or a state prosecutor could claim authority to enforce federal law? there is nothing in the business record statute that appears to confer that authority. and that runs afoul of the provision of the new york constitution. then you get to the indictment which doesn't do its job as an indictment which is to put the defendant on notice exactly what the charges are. we have a six week trial after almost a year of pretrial litigation in front of a judge where they don't have tonnish out what the charges are and now we're at the end where stuff is getting sprung on the defense at the end and to lydia's point, it is not just that we won't know which of the three of the menu items that the judge offered them, how do we know they're even going to pick one of those three? the statute just says, unlawful.

they could decide something else was unlawful, who knows. david: lydia, you were there for most of the testimony, the defense, prosecution witness examinations, did you hear anything about that tax charge before the defense rested? >> there was such little testimony and evidence on the tax charge that frankly it was a surprise to hear that kind of resurrected at the end. it felt like, oh, yeah, there was this tax issue. it feels like the sleeper attempt to try to slide something else in here as like another opportunity to find some type of unlawful means. what is really relates to is this grossing up of payment to michael cohen and whether or not should have documented that as straight income or whether it should have been disclosed as a retainer but regardless, there was no testimony about whether or not that related to taxes or underpayment of taxes. david: right. >> that is really troubling actually for the defense at this

point because the judge instructed the jury, there is no burden on the prosecution to demonstrate that there was an underpayment ever taxes, only that false information with respect to income was reported and that would be on michael cohen. david: right. andy, the bottom line here, none of the underlying charges, those big three underlying charges that raises this expired misdemeanor into a felony, none of them were proved in court before the jury took it into their room in whichth deciding guilt or innocence. is it impossible, i brief it's impossible to claim there is anything here in those big three charges that have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, do you agree? >> i think the case is shoddier than that, david, in the sense that before you would even get to the underlying charges, they have to prove falseification of business records.

it's not enough, let's say, let's just stipulate for argument sake there are inaccuracies in the records, right? the statute says they have to previous not only falsity, but they have to prove an intent to defraud, a scheme to defraud. even if you look at the tax thing that we, that we got kind of sprung on us at the end, the structure of colen's compensation was done in a way to insure that he could pay his taxes and might even have caused the state to get more in the way of taxation. i don't know how you prove intent to defraud beyond a reasonable doubt with evidence we have in this record. david: anddy, how is this trial not violating the most basic tenets of due process? >> well i think it is, david, but the thing is, they're on a timeline. this isn't doing justice. this is doing electoral politics. what they care about is being able to call trump a convicted

felon in the run-up from now until november. if this case gets thrown out on appeal a year from now i don't think that bothers them as much as the impair -- imperative of getting trump before election day. david: no one realizes how much the integrity of court used to have, there was guy before bragg, bob morgenthau. he was a democrat, he never allowed a bit or tinge of his own feelings into the courtroom prosecuting the case. he was the d.a. here for 30 years. in fact his predecessor was also very good man, lifelong democrat, never got political. this is such a turnaround of the new york system of justice that you and i knew, isn't it? >> yeah. i was a young prosecutor just down the street when bob morgantheau was the district

attorney, and in those days if you had campaigned for office saying elect me i will use power of my office against political enemies, that would be seen as disqualifying. now those people get elected. david: it is extraordinary. it is such a shame. as a proud new yorker myself, there is not as much to be proud of at least concerning our legal system right now as there used to be. andy mccarthy, you make us proud. thank you for being here. lydia hu, you make us proud as well. wonderful reporting inside of the courtroom, both of you. appreciate both of you being here today. let's bring in jason chaffetz, former utah congressman and fox news contributor, joe concha, fox news contributor. thank you both of you for being here. i want to talk to you about the effect of all of this, if there is conviction, if acquittal, it is all trump's, no downside to acquittal by donald trump, but jason, already trump's team is

e giddy, they may be all salivating and laughing and popping you know the champagne bottles thinking this is it but how many times before had the democrats thought they had donald trump because they made him look like some nefarious character that he is not? i think most people look at this saying, he was acquitted, there was a hung jury, a conviction for what, for what? of all the things going on in new york city, the crime, immigration problems, the schools, all those problems and you're going after donald trump over some paperwork that you can't even describe to me what it is? david: yeah. >> most people look at that, and they understand, you know what? this is a political, vindictive effort and it is not a serious application of justice.

david: joe, there is another poll, npr/marist poll i want to pick up specifically because of their view of independents, and how independents are looking at all of this. 15% of the independents in this poll, you look at the top line there on the right, the right are the independents, 15% say they are actually more likely to vote for trump if there is a conviction. just 11% say they're less likely. you know, it is good for trump but it is a sad commentary what is happening in judge merchan's courtroom, isn't it? >> it is a circus, no question, david. when you look donald trump's lead among independent the before any conviction or hung jury or acquittal comes down he is up by double digits there, so if he loses a point or two of independents, this is may, by the time we get to november, i'm not sure it will have the same effect. he can afford to lose that because he is leading by that much. i always think, david, jason, two prior impeachments of

sitting presidents. i remember bill clinton, 1999, he is impeached, goes on to leave with the highest approval rating of any two-term president since polling began, somewhere around0%. the clinton presidency for the most part was successful but not 70% successful. that was amazing. donald trump was impeached in 2019, his numbers weren't up as well. so even if conviction happens here, because the process has been so watered down, talking impeachment, talking about trials like this, it's not going to have i think any tangible difference by the time we get to november and at this stage right now if the election were held today donald trump is absolutely president, given hills leads in north carolina, georgia, nevada, pennsylvania, arizona. david: do you think the biden people understand that at all? they had the charade outside the courtroom couple days ago with robert de niro? maybe they're even learning a

lesson because even some liberals are telling them what a mistake was? >> they had the world, universe, send anybody out there, they send robert de niro in that disaster? democrats consistently have every celebrity you can imagine. ask hillary clinton how that went for her. everybody night was celebrity night for the clintons. it never ever pans out. people vote the issues they care about to the extent that the bidens understand this, and the white house and the political operatives, they don't want joe biden out this talking about policy because he can't win on any policies. so, you know, what are they going to run on? some women's issues? yes. they already have those voters. they're not convincing other people with that. david: joe, i want to talk to you for a second about the media because i'm wondering how they pulled back from their behavior over the past couple weeks. the love-fest, i mean there was some queriness about some of,

some of the things going on in the courtroom before, before last week when the msnbc and cnn commentators were suggesting that marchon was going too far in some areas. look what andrew wiseman said yesterday on msnbc. i will get your reaction. roll it. >> with respect to judge merchan, i'm like now, i have to have a man crush on him. he is such a great judge, that it's hard to see that the jurors wouldn't have the same impression. i mean he is just, you just keep on thinking, if you looked in the dictionary for judicial temperment, that is what you get. david: hard for him to see anything bad about the judge but, i think most americans as there looking at this, as the polls indicate have a lot of problems with the judge and what is going on in the courtroom? >> absolutely. andrew wiseman, the guy primarily behind russia collusion.

should rook into new hair dye, that is horrible job if i can give an innocent observation. when you're talking about a grown man on television, you say you have a man crush on a judge almost every sane and sober legal analyst is running this case like it is two on one, it is prosecution and judge versus trump. in the end and andrew wiseman can have all the tingles up his leg to quote another mean analyst. those charges better be deaf any of, something in the national interest, go against a former president. no one can now to jason's point, if were to say donald trump got convicted, no one can finish a sentence, exactly what, nor do i care? it is campaign finance from eight years ago, 99% of the country doesn't care. david: clinton was not looking at re-election at that point in his career. that is the issue, whether this

prevents donald trump from becoming president. joe concha, jason chaffetz, thanks for colling here. coming up more on the trial with trump attorney alina habba when "kudlow" continues. ♪ ♪ the biggest ideas inspire new ones. 30 years ago, state street created an etf that inspired the world to invest differently. it still does. what can you do with spy? ♪ ♪ [thunder rumbles] ♪ ♪

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david: we got some breaking news from the courtroom. we just learned that judge merchan, or however you want to pronounce it will excuse the jury in the new york trump trial today at four 30. that is about ten minutes from now. joining me for more on all of this trump attorney alina habba. thanks for being here. great to see you. you were in the courtroom practically every day of this trial. what can you tell if anything about the jury in terms of their reaction to the prosecution and defense? >> i think that the jury is actually being very attentive. we don't see anybody snoozing or distracted. so that's a good sign they're paying attention. as we said all along if you do pay attention and you rule out the noise from the prosecution you will have a good handle on the fact that this case has absolutely no merit and nothing to it. as far as reactions, i've learned over my time in new york with president trump and these

trials that you really can't tell. they are, there's no ah-ha moment. there was no big laugh or any of that throughout this trial. they were pretty even keeled. some take notes, some don't. but we'll see what they do. david: were you surprised by the way, correct me if i'm wrong, but the, the one underlying crime, so-called crime that, that the judge wants them to at least consider is a tax charge that wasn't really mentioned much at if at all in the trial itself. what is up with that how can you defend your client if you don't know what you're defending him against? >> i actually love it when you asked that question. the one thing i just learned, the judge actually suppressed the ability to bring in evidence of taxes or what they did, and the fact that president trump and the trump organization did not take a tax deduction for this. so show me where the crime is there.

it's crazy. they were incredibly conservative. but this judge did not allow that evidence in. he did however allow there to be a jury instruction on it. so, so it's so wrong honestly, david. i've been watching and what's happening in there i don't know if the press can even captivate it, get everybody to understand how tragic it is. the rulings really do deter the jurors, a, knowing the facts, real facts, also from president trump getting a fair trial. david: well there are plenty of grounds for appeal. we don't have to go through all of them but there are so many grounds for appeal. >> that's true. david: i'm wondering how long it will take? is there any chance at all if there is conviction here of fast tracking an appeal before the election? >> probably not. i know the appellate division has been pretty fair to me in my experience in new york in the first department. they do try to push it along. there is a massive docket. we're in a litigious state.

unless there is a urgency i think i highly doubt they will find. if we get a ruling we'll definitely go immediately to the appellate court. david: with the ascension of the judge, making stuff up nothing ever heard of in law, like this choice of three different options. the jury doesn't have to agree on everyone, therefore it doesn't essentially have to be a unanimous decision but i'm just wondering, you know, new york has this crazy system now, partly because of d.a. bragg but there are other district attorneys, i'm thinking of fani willis down no georgia who has a rico case hanging in the wings. that probably won't be decided until after the election but is that the kind of stuff you're facing down there as well. >> it's unbelievable. it is across the board. they're all coordinated. you're seeing state court level d.a.s bringing federal

charges. that in itself is wrong. statute of limitations evidently don't matter anymore if your name is president trump. yes, we're seeing this time and time again. it is very similar. you know, and frankly it's not a coincidence we have this judge. it is not a coincidence we have judges like we have in washington on the january 6 case or in georgia, you know. it's by design. this judge we have over here, david, he had weisselberg's case not once, but twice, put him in jail. he had steve bannon. he will be hearing steve bannon's case. there is no coincidence there. i want to know how that continues to happen. it is a disgrace to our judicial system. david: a lien narcs you're with the former president practically every day during this trial. i know he is frustrated of course by it. we hear the frustration by what he says before and after the day but, is he losing hope in the system? i'm wondering if, if he is thinking about, if he is elected, president again in

november, if he is thinking about how he gets rid of this crazy lawfare system which uses the law as a political tool to attack enemies? >> yeah. i think that's absolutely a critical thing we have to take care of in this country. i think for anybody in this country to not want to fix that would be such a disservice to our community and he is frustrated by the judicial system of course he is, because it is no longer a judicial system. it is a political vehicle now and political motivator for the biden administration and that is just not how you're supposed to use courts. i know that would be definitely top of mind for me, most certainly for president trump. david: alina habba, wonderful to see you again. a lien narcs thank you very much for being here. >> thank you. thank you so much. david: of course. president biden's answer to 40-year high inflation? more big government of course around more spending and more regulations. we're going to discuss with tennessee senator bill hagerty when "kudlow" continues.

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♪. david: president biden's disconnect as americans search for lower prices on everyday items, biden sown the campaign trail touting his big government spending that actually led to the highest inflation we've seen in over 40 years. our own edward lawrence is live at the white house with more on this. edward. >> reporter: david, president biden bide trying to have it both ways. saying all the government spending he put into law did not cause inflation, but stimulus checks he gave out gave consumers extra spending power they needed going forward. now listen to what is saying especially in the black community, listen to this. president biden: when i came to office, according to the cbc passed legislation to deliver more checks in the pockets of millions of americans including black americans. 1400-dollar checks from the american rescue plan we passed, then $300 per month, per child, per family, child tax credit

which cut child poverty in half for black families. >> reporter: also highlights because of the money he spent paychecks for americans are bigger which is true but wiped out completely due to inflation. real wages are actually down 2.7% from the month president biden took office. trump surrogates blame president biden's policies. >> we've got the economic issues that we're facing relative to inflation, high interest rates when we have the border issue we're facing which is creating economic stress for a number of our cities. all of these economic issues including you know, biden energy policy which is driving inflation. >> reporter: so the white house highlighting even more spending today. national economic advisor lael brainerd hosting investors climate technology startups, small business owners, entrepreneur talking but how to access mountain of government money for energy transition projects. energy department releasing today how to use tax credits in

order to boost and stimulate the clean energy industry, guidelines posted today. back to you. david: edward lawrence thank you very much. for more on this let's bring in tennessee senator bill hagerty. thank you for being here, appreciate it. as doug burgum just said there are a lot of things leading to the economic mess that americans see as a mess. as much as biden tries to put a happy face on it, americans are not buying it, that shows clearly in the polls. let's take one, inflation. it is up 20% since biden came into office. wages are up 13.6%. so do the math, americans feel under water because they are underwater, isn't it just as simple as that? >> it is david, and i think the american public can see right through what joe biden is trying to claim here. the blame for this lays squarely at his feet. for him to tie the economic program talking about how great it is, i think it is a shock to the american public. you can see the results are everything but that.

if you think about what he has done, the stimulus has been so massive, that has driven our inflation, that inflation in turn is driving increased interest rates by the fed. the largest increase we've seen in terms of interest rate outlays and expenditures has been in our own deficit f you think about it, $87 billion this year will be spent on interest servicing our debt. that is larger than the 805 billion-dollar defense budget we've got. american public is feeling this. it is quite painful and american public can't escape it. david: wasn't that long donald trump was president. four years ago americans remember they had a 9% real wage increase under donald trump. so you have a decrease under biden, an increase under donald trump that most americans remember, even a lot of americans who voted for president biden in 2020, do you suspect a lot of them are going to see that, say maybe i'm not going to make the same choice this time? >> it is a simple question. i think joe biden fails every single time when people ask

themselves here in america am i better off under joe biden than i was under donald trump. clearly donald trump's policies led to a far more robust american economy. american worker was far better off. we have a situation here in america where workers are hurting. we have national security crises erupting all over the globe. the southern border has collapsed. america is far worse off under joe biden. he knows he fails that test. he reverting to any other possible strategy he can find, whether warfare in the courtroom system or going out on the road he as he is touting something that just isn't true with respect to his economy, those other things are not directly related to the economy do turn out to be related like immigration. cities have found all over the country right now the costs of dealing with a migration crisis, when you keep borders open to millions of illegal migrants that come in, is just enormous, costing cities and towns billions and billions of dollars. >> yeah the infrastructure is collapsing under the weight of all this i will heel migration.

think about what is happening to the hospital system, our schools. everyone i talk to in tennessee, tennessee is not feeling near as much as big blue cities that are sanctuary cities, if you think about the impact across the nation, it is collapsing state and municipal governments. the pain is very real. joe biden continues to do it. we got the democrats on the record, the reason they're doing this, the motive behind the crime at the southern border they want to count illegal aliens for counting electoral contradicts and votes. it is about power for the democrats. they don't care what havoc is wreaks on our local cities and american populace. david: there are things beyond costs, like the foreign policy with the afghanistan withdrawal. then what's happening with iran and i still don't have a clear sense of what's happening. clearly they just wiped out the maximum pressure against iran. that gave them $100 billion or more, extra, interest income

from the oil revenue. >> yes, part of what he used for hamas, part of the reason they went into israel october 7th, started this new war. part of it is going to their nuclear energy program. apparently they're only days away getting weapons material upgrade to their uranium. they are closer now than ever before to getting an atom bomb. >> they just reverted to failed policies of barack obama. president trump had it right. the maximum pressure campaign imposed on iran was working. iran was widely reported as being broke. proxies like hamas, hezbollah, like height thinks they were not able to do anything like they do now. what does the biden administration plan the? they look away on enforcement. enriched iranians to $200 billion. have they got a plan to stop houthis to the red sea? no. do they have a plan to stop northern part of israel with

hezbollah? all their policies are failing. they continue to enrich iran. american public and allies are standing here scratching their head, what is going on. david: you talk about plans, what about plans to stop them from getting nukes. president biden said they will not get nukes. but every time he says a group against the united states says don't do it, they do it anyway, you don't hear any response from the biden administration. what happens if they do get the atom bomb, quickly? >> well, president trump realized they were on the path to do that. that is why he put maximum pressure. david: senator hagerty, senator hagerty. i'm sorry we have breaking news, you will be interested in. in fact you can hang in there. we do have a verdict in the donald trump case in new york. producers do we have any sign of when we're going to hear what that verdict is? nothing yet, okay we do have a reporter on site. it may be a while, senator, but

would you like to weigh in on what has happened with that trial and your impressions of it. >> i certainly can. i certainly can. this trial has been a mockery of

seeing is the biden administration willingly abusing the judicial system to go and attack their opponent. this made-up crime so to speak is absolutely preposterous. what happened in new york is travesty. what happened in georgia is a travesty. what is happening in washington d.c. is a travesty. we never had an president indicted. we have clear motive to beat a person on the judicial field because they can't pete him at the ballot box. the american public sees this right through it. donald trump is the victim of biden administration policies and tactics to avoid going to the ballot box with donald trump. the american public wants this solved at the ballot box. that is the american way. everything that is happening what you're seeing in unfolding in new york. politicization of all of this. even the biden administration, biden campaign having a campaign event in front of the court mouse courthouse shows what they

have been saying this a summit call. david: have we opened a pan pandora's box we can't close again? if republicans win the presidency, various house, will which see lawfare used against democrats or is there a way to get rid of lawfare once and for all. >> republicans respect law and order. david, this is anything but that democrats demonstrate new lows at every turn. president trump talked to me directly stopping this. the american public will lose respect for all institutions particularly for the law enforcement institutions. our judiciary system should be beyond all of this. weaponization is taking place here in new york, georgia, d.c. it is a travesty. we have to get it back in order. the united states senate can play significant role if we regain the gavel. chuck schumer is the leader right now. that needs to change as well. david: once again, for those tuning, the jury in new york,

bragg trump hush money trial has reached a verdict. the jury has reached a verdict. it will be a couple minutes before they come back into the courtroom to read out what that verdict is. we have our reporters waiting waiting with bated breath as to what that is but i'm just wondering, senator, are you willing to make a pledge now that republicans will not use lawfare in the same way that democrats clearly have against donald trump? >> david, i can't imagine a situation in which republicans do it. i think the american public can't imagine it either. whether you're a republican, an independent or a democrat you can see right through what joe biden and his department of justice have done here. they have manipulated and controlled these trials. they're doing it strictly for electoral purposes. it is all political. it is making our nation look like a banana republic. it is absolutely ridiculous, whatever the outcome of this verdict is the american public has seen through it. president trump's numbers have gone up, president biden's have

gone down. this is not working. it should not be happening in america. david: all right. we have our reporter ready for us. we'll go to her. senator, that very much for being with us. senator bill hagerty. we understand that donald trump is sitting in the courtroom with his arms crossed, our witness inside of the courtroom is saying blanch is whispering something to him, that is the attorney for donald trump. the mood is less clearly before the jury announced they have a verdict. lydia hu, is standing by. how long before we hear what the verdict is, lydia? >> reporter: hi, there, david, we heard approximately 4:38, five minutes ago, that the judge, juan marchon that they have a verdict. he asked for 30 minutes to fill out the forms to finalize this verdict. we should have more information, i would say, shortly after 5:00 p.m. we should start to hear what

this jury of seven men and five women have decided, the fate of this trial. all together, and today, if my math is correct, they have been deliberating for five hours. they got the case returned to them around 11:30 and came back to the judge at around 4:40 with a note that said they had a verdict. that would give us to, i believe tell me if i'm wrong, five hours today. david: yeah. >> coupled with four 1/2 yesterday. working about nine 1/2 hours of deliberation total to bring us to this moment, david. as we're now waiting to hear more. david: the judge has said no outbursts of any kind will be allowed in the courtroom when the verdict is read. of course there is no way of guarrantying that. it sounds kind of quiet where you are, lydia. we're used to hearing some protesters both pro and con, trump in the background. i don't seem to hear them today? >> reporter: yeah, you know, let me just take a quick glance around. we're standing, the courthouse

is right here over behind my right shoulder. there is public park here over my left shoulder as well. that is usually where the protesters will convene, also supporters of the former president as well who want to show their support to donald trump as he is going through this ordeal. at the moment we do see, it seems like several dozen folks that are gathered but also note, many of them are members of the press as well. so we do have a fair amount of activity right along center street in front of the court house but it doesn't seem to be what i can see from where i'm standing, many demonstrations or signs of support from protesters. but that could change when we hear in 30 minutes time. david: i think most people thought it would not happen. we reach the 4:30 hour everyone seemed to be dismissed, i'm hearing from jonathan turley, a lot of reporters in the courtroom closed their laptop,

planning to get up and leaving. some had already left. now they're coming back in, typing furiously on their laptops but it really comes as a shock, many people thought it was done for the day? >> reporter: boy, you're telling me. we, got the initial indication that the prosecutors were coming back into the courtroom. initially our producers inside of the room weren't quite sure why. the bell had not been rung. there is an interior bell indicate the jurors have a note they want the judge to read. that bell had not rung. it was not clear why attorneys were reentering the room. they don't spend their time in the courtroom while the jury is deliberating. so they come back in and it turns out that it seemed like they were going to dismiss and conclude their deliberations for the day, send the jury home. that was the initial indication. so everybody here thought we'll come back here tomorrow and pick up right where we're leaving off and then very quickly, within a matter of minutes, we get this

notice, actually we're going to have an about-face and there is verdict coming in. wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall really to find out what happened there, what transpired in those five, ten minutes. we may never know unless a jury member tells us. david: lydia, you were one of, you were one of many flies on the wall we have here at fox. we're lucky to have. another one is jonathan turley, some others who are actually in the courtroom or adjacent room with video what is going on in the courtroom. jonathan says that the jury is still outside of the courtroom. so they haven't come back in from where, made their decision but he says that the room is very silent right now. there is a sense of tension in the room. security has increased within the room as well because things could get out of control if people show their emotions to the, to the dislike of the judge in the case but we also have

with us, and stay with us, if you can, lydia, because you were there for so long, you know what is going on, what the feelings are inside of that room but we want to bring in stephen miller, former senior trump policy advisor and trump campaign surrogate. stephen, i've been talking to a number of people who watched every tick of this trial, saying it is almost i am possible impossible what the jury was told by this judge, who clearly looked bias in this case, that the defense, donald trump would get the benefit of the doubt here. are you expecting a conviction or what? >> well, i'm not sure what to expect except as you say, as you point out, the judge this case, my words, rigging this trial from the beginning. his instruction to the jury, jonathan turley on the airwaves all the time, others so aghast,

you don't need to agree what the underlying crime is? that the prosecution never even had to prove what the underlying crime is? threw out some crimes, pick any one you want. four can pick one, four can pick another, four can pick another, this is something you see in a communist country in the soviet union in north korea, in venezuela, not in america. this is the most corrupt trial that we have ever seen in our lives. the fact that donald trump could not even bring a witness to testify about campaign finance law? the allegation unproven at the heart of this case, when it has been unbroken, long-standing interpretation of campaign finance law that you must, must use private funds for private matters. that you're prohibited from using campaign funds for private matters. they couldn't present that information to the jury. the defense team could not once make that argument to the jury? this is in america? this is in the united states? i think for many of us we're

still in a state of shock that this is actually happening and that the biden campaign is campaigning on it, is embracing it, is owning it. we never thought we would see america descend into venezuela-style gangster government. that's what we have right now. we have gangster government. i will not minutes my words. that is what we have communist, gangster government in this country. david: stephen, you mentioned details what happened in this case makes a lot of americans think it is politically motivated. one of the extraordinary things, a defense is supposed to have access what they have been charged with. you cannot possibly defend yourself if you don't know what you have been charged with. one of the underlying charges that makes this expired misdemeanor into a felony was just mentioned after the defense rested. so the defense not only didn't have any access to it before the trial, before what they were being charged with, but during the trial it several they did not have access to that

particular tax charge. so they were completely unable unable -- >> it was not ever litigated at the trial. david: no, not at all. zero. >> just during the summation. it was not exposed to any scrutiny, any evidence, any rebuttal, anything. any exculpatory evidence. a playing grant violation of the sixth amendment to the constitution. the right to know the charges against you. and a violation of the fifth amendment, the right to have a compulsory process to bring witnesses in your defense and right to due process of law. so it is a direct violation of the u.s. bill of rights amendments five, amendments six, and what you see in this trial is that the left in this country, the democrat party wants a conviction more than they want anything else in this whole world. they will break every rule to get it. any other case, by the way, this judge would have been recused overred biden donations alone,

this trial of magnitude, this importance, a public facing donor to the biden campaign and you will sit in judgment on this trial? it is unheard of. we know very well manhattan is the most biased jury pool in this country. tied with washington, d.c., perhaps. so at every level it is impossible to get a fair hearing a air trial. this thing would have been thrown out by a fair judge on pretrial motion very first day they never identified the underlying crime. that alone is basis this thing gets thrown out. the statute of limitations have long expired on the underlying bookkeeping charge. david: stephen, stay with us. lydia hu is with us as well. we want to bring in john carney economics finance editor and coauthor of "breitbart" business die guess. a lot of people including larry kudlow who couldn't be here, one of the reasons markets are so

unaffected by this, they see donald trump go up in the ratings biden go down. do you agree with that, if there is a conviction could that kind of optimism, even the couple of days of negative numbers notwithstanding, could that fade away if in fact trump is convicted. >> i do think so. the market has had a trump hope boost. this trial has been actually good for trump but the polls do suggest if trump is convicted it could hurt his chances to get re-elected. i think we will see the market take a hit if that happens. however, i think most people think the case will get overturned on appeal. david: but the appeal will happen after the election. >> absolutely. so he will have to go in as somebody who has been convicted if that happens today, it may end up being a hung jury. we may have another trial. if they have another trial, trump's popularity will go to 70%. he will be elected by acclamation at this point, the

market will go through the roof. he keeps getting more popular every day of this trial. but i do think the market will take a hit. that may actually be one of the reasons it has been down this week is because we know we're coming to the end of the trial. guilty verdict is a possibility and you think that hurt markets. david: lydia hu i want to bring you back in for a second. have you heard anything among the people you've been talking to at the trial about an appeal, about whether there would be any way to fast track it before the election? >> reporter: that's a really good question. you know, the appeal would take quite some time. it is not a speedy process. if this is conviction, we don't know that, defense would have 30 days to file notice for appeal and set thereafter. having a appeal before the

election would be extraordinarily fast. i don't have any optimism that would happen. i have not spoken to anyone who believes that would be the case. one of the reasons, you know, i think is this case is awfully weedy. even though it presents so many thorny issues that make good arguments for appeal, i think in the briefing schedule and arguments would be quite dense and would not produce a quick resolution. david: the defense suggested that their client might be locked up. he said no that is my job. suggesting if there is conviction would not be a lock-up of the former president. is there any indication in terms whether that would happen if in fact there would be a conviction? >> reporter: whether it is possible the president would see

prison time as a result of the conviction, that is a possible. the process is four years for each count. he is facing 34 counts. the judge would be able to decide whether the sentencing for each count is convicted on numerous, whether they run consecutively after another. whether they run con currently all at the same time. that is premature. it would be extraordinary to receive prison time. i want to go back to stephen miller on this. after all the misstatements made in this trial by the judge, stuff that goes beyond anything that our legal experts see in written law, do you trust the judge not to though this former

president in jail? >> no, i don't. i don't at all. i think the judge in a political calculation, that i might want to incarcerate before or after the election. i think i can in his head i don't want to fully martyr president trump. >> we'll make him a convicted felon and incarcerate him after the election. we'll make a political calculation. who knows how you would weigh that. every notion in this trial he has been flagrantly political. not just having fundamental human decency to step aside when it became public he had donated to donald trump's opponent in this race in publicly disclosed fashion. david: there is the question of how deeply the white house is involved in directing what's been going on by the prosecution.

we saw the number three guy at the doj came down to do the prosecution's work. clearly he was doing the bidding of doj. may have had conversation with folks. >> i want to be very clear to your audience. people work their entire lives in the legal profession to get the apex of doj. every career prosecutor around this country dreams of some day if they want to stay in prosecution of being a high level doj attorney. high level doj attorneys do not go down to local cases unless they have a specific agenda in mind. joe biden's fingerprints are on ellie every element of this trial. right before the jury before liberating, joe biden says i'm going to make a mark on the nation after you reach a verdict. what message is joe biden sanctions is overwhelmingly democrat jerry? he saying i'm watching you, i'm

counting on you, i'm depending upon you, you know what you need me to do. same reason they had the press conference outside the courthouse featuring a new york sector, robert de niro. send a message, we are watching you, you have a duty in the minds of joe biden to reach a certain outcome. every level defensively everything we were children to believe about the fairness and impartiality of our justice system. can't bring in evidence to defend yourself witnesses for the charges against you. i can't even require the jury to agree unanimously on what crime is and is so many experts ; to get john in for final comment. if there's a conviction, what happens? the mark i think markets crash tomorrow if there's a conviction but they will bounce back because even if they put donald trump in jail, i think the american people will vote him into the white house right out of the new york city jail. it's an outrageous trial.

>> if this conviction, you think -- i think the market will do very badly. i think we will see at least 2% drop. >> i want to thank you. stephen miller and lydia hu, thank you much, a surprised comment from the jury that they have reached a verdict, we thought they were dismissing at 4:30 p.m., that was a half-hour ago. turns out they had a verdict, they haven't come in yet, they are about two. intense situation in the courtroom. coverage continues now with liz mcdonald. >> thank you so much. a historic day, the jury in the new york trump trial reached a verdict. let's get to lydia hu lived at e