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iowa caucuses, my conversation with ron desantis about his strategy is coming up. the big news, in my view, is that the media are throwing in the towel. here's politico. the defining feature of the race is just how uncompetitive it's become. donald trump has already iced the rest of the field, trouncing his competitors like a slow motion coronation. washington post, a growing sense among political veterans across the state that the basic outcome is set and a trump victory is all but assured. and that view has spread to television. >> we've been talking about this as if it's a real race, but so far we haven't seen evidence that there is anyone who's going to be able to steal this mantel from trump. >> donald trump is still the front-runner among republicans. and any attempt by his rivals to sell themselves as reasonable alternatives are going even further down the tubes. >> she does not have a strong performance, that could spell trouble for the end of her campaign. and once again another opportunity for donald trump to really run away with this.

>> if donald trump was an insurrectionist, he should not be allowed or able to run for office. and if he's disqualified, that isn't undemocratic. howard: that, of course, in reasons to the ballot bans and the supreme court late friday agreed e to hear the former president's appeal of the all-democratic court's decision. trump's also appealed to the courts in maine, the ruling by the democratic and highly partisan sec share of -- secretary of state. nikki haley still trying to distance herself from the uproar over herz refusal to use the word layoff slavery when asked the cause of the civil war. >> the media's the only one that has talked about this issue. >> no, that's actually not true finish. >> not one person on the ground request. i should have said slavery, i didn't do it. i immediately, the very next day, came out and said i was wrong. howard: fairly or unfairly, the press is describing the contest between haley and desantis as a battle for second place. i'm howard kurtz and this is "mediabuzz."

♪ howard: also ahead, claudine gay finally forced out as harvard's president and plays the race card. as joe biden and donald trump call each other a threat to democracy, there's other news about the iowa caucuses involving bret baier and martha maccallum. >> fox news is hosting a town hall with former president donald trump. it is scheduled for january 10th in des moines, iowa. howard: and what about the cnn candidate debate? >> if you're donald trurchtion you have -- there's no reason to show up. bad for cnn and the american public, although he's going to be on fox. howard: and that's the twist. trump, who's certainly taken his jabs at fox, is doing this network's town hall at the exact same time, nine eastern this wednesday nights as th debate, a classic bit of counterprogramming and something of a ratings showdown.

joining us now to analyze the coverage in nashville, clay travis, founder of outkick and cohost of a nationally-syndicated radio show, and in denver, lucy caldwell, an independent and former campaign manager for congressman joe walsh. clay, do you agree the media have basically given up, smacked their foreheads and conceded that donald trump is going to win iowa and then wrap up the nominations? >> i think that a lot of media has adopted that narrative. i actually think there still may be a little bit of drama here because the expectation that trump's going to win amins that if ron desantis -- win amins -- iowa means that the storyline will be, oh, wow, desantis outperformed expectations. and i also believe nikki haley's going to be very competitive in new hampshire. and so i think people are overlooking that a little bit. now, the question that still emergings and is the -- emerges

and is the most important is when's going if to be the number two, right? because i do think we're going to get a one v. one by the time we head to south carolina, and is there anyone, ron desantis or nikki haley, that could give trump a run into marchsome i don't think nikki haley can. i think there's a possibility that ron desantis could. but, look, if you were asking know handicap what are the odds that trump is going to be the nominee, i think there's a 90 chance that he will be the nominee. but i do think, again, there's a 10% chance that we could have a little bit of excitement if in iowa and in new hampshire just because the expectations for trump are so high in terms of him coming out and swamping all of his opponents. howard: right. you're leaving a 10% chance. i'm going to jump ahead now because this question came up on cbn asked the nikki haley about whether she would consider eventually a status as a donald

trump's running mate. >> you're not going to rule it out. >> it's not even a conversation. and it doesn't matter what candidate wants me to answer it, i don't play for second. howard: so, lucy, that was sort of a nonanswer because she didn't say under no circumstances would i, she just said she's not aiming to be vp. >> yeah. i mean, what difference does it make really? first of all, it's not going to happen. there's so much bad blood between donald trump and nikki haley, he's going to blow her out in her own sate. she's going to -- state. she's going to lose big in south carolina. it's an interesting thought exercise, but there's no realm in this universe that we live in which nikki haley is donald trump's running mate. her answer was the right one because why get sort of bogged down by giving donald trump an opportunity to say i would never have whatever he calls her, crooked north carolina key as my running mate. [laughter] howard: let me follow up with

you, lucy, because what if desantis does better than expected in iowa? what if christie drops out? what if haley can be very competitive in minnesota? -- in new hampshire? but then in the next breath or paragraph it's like, oh, well, but they're still long shots? >> they are still long shots. donald trump is up 30 points in iowa. and the orr problem around the narrative of could there be someone who could surge and give donald trump a run for his money is that assumes everyone who is voting for a candidate or expressing a preference for a candidate who is not donald trump, that they are all a monolith, right? that they all are anti-trump republican primary votes. that's not true. someone who is supporting vivek ramaswamy is not suddenly going to jump to chris christie or nikki haley, right? for many of these people, if their chosen candidate drops out, their second choice is going to be donald trump. so you have to also keep in mind that how, how they're doing in the polls is made more

complicated by the fact that those candidates that are second, third, fourth and fifth are very different from each other. howard: well, you're spoiling all the fun as lots of journalists head to iowa. clay, with trump now appealing those two ballot bans, maine and colorado, do these attempts to boot him, could they actually wind up helping him just like the four indictments by making it seem as if the pretty press do anything to block him? >> 100%, they help him. and i hope the supreme court, when they hear this case, is going to rule 9-0 against colorado and against maine and put this to bed. my concern is that they're going to actually rule 6-3, and then democrats are going to come out and say this is why we need to expand the court because donald trump is being protected by his own appointees. this is a radical idea, that you're going to use a civil is war era constitutional provision to try to remove a leading

presidential contender by the opposing party that is sitting in power right now. it's why when you really think about it, joe biden deciding to speak in valley forge and try to claim that donald trump is an existential threat to democrat crass and then you have to vote for him if you care about democracy, we've never seen a situation where the sitting president's own department of justice has been trying to put his chief political opponent in prison for the rest of his life and not allow his name to appear on a ballot to run against him. howard: right. >> i think joe biden is actually the existential threat to democracy, and i think all of these attacks help trump because it plays into what he's saying which is that the deep state and everyone else in the democrat party is aligned against him. howard: right. i would just quibble with the idea that joe biden has personally ginned up all these prosecutions, but -- >> i think 100% joe biden is involved, by the way. howard: o.k. >> i understand that talking point is out there. i don't think there's any way that merrick garland is doing what he's doing without --

>> is he also, is joe biden also orchestrating the prosecution of his son, clay? is that part of his broad corruption? >> well, he's orchestrating the protection of his son. i think the sweetheart deal that they gave that judge mary ellen nor quake ca refused to rememberer stamp, to her credit, would have given the hunter biden get out of jail free card. and if i don't think there's any chance at all that joe biden's going to avoid finish he's going to pardon hunter biden as soon as this election is over regardless of whether he wins or loses, in my opinion, and keep hunter from ever doing a day in prison. howard: yeah. i always avoid predictions because they can burn you. [laughter] i want to play an extremely unusual online ad from a group that supports donald trump and then briefly get reactions from both of you on the other side. >> god said i need somebody willing to get up before dawn, fix this country, work all day, fight the marxists, eat supper, then go to the oval office and stay past midnight at a meeting of the heads of state.

so god made trump. call out the fake news for their tongues as sharp as aer penalty's. -- a serpent's. howard: i think my tongue is pretty smooth, but clay first. got about half a minute for ooh each of you. won't some people find that offensive, or is it a satire designed to generate media chatter? >> i think they satire designed to promote media chatter. i think trump's sense of humor and his campaign's sense of humor is often loss. i believe many trump supporters believe that he is the salvation. they are evangelical, they believe he is sent from god. that's not uncommon when it comes to politics, but i think this is designed to get tongues wagging and drive everybody crazy. howard: lucy, god made trump. >> i don't think they think he's salving, i think he's a cyrus-like character and this kind of homage to paul harvey is another moment to make that case. look, i think people for whom this message resonates, they're

already pretty bought into trump, especially parts of the evangelical base. i think for those who are not, this ad probably seems a little weird, but it certainly goes to trump's megalomania that he immediately turned around and shared it on truth social. howard: he did share it, and i guess different people take it different ways. most of the media have ignored it. so how important, clay, is donald trump's town hall on fox going up against the cnn candidate debate with desantis and haley especially if he trounces them in the ratings? >> it's super smart. look, fox news is going to likely dominate cnn head to head when you put trump on, and he knows that. and more importantly, how many people hard going to be -- that are going to be voting in the republican primary are going to be watching cnn compared to fox news? trump will have more eyeballs on him than will be watching cnn. i think it's incredibly smart. i think it's a

counterprogramming strategy that he has, frankly, embraced since all of these debates began, and it's going to comet. howard: lucy, the media used to say trump is unelectable in a general election. they're not saying that now after the poll polls showing biden -- trump leading biden among hispanics and younger e voters. >> as we know, the election's going to come town to a handful of battleground states, and those may not if even be the battleground states that it comes down to, right? i think it probably comes town to pennsylvania, for example. so it's hard to square national polls with the outcome. but, yes, it's going to be a very tight race either way. it's too early to know what's going to happen. howard: that's good news for journalists. ahead, my sit-down with ron desantis. but when we come back, harvard president claudine gay is finally pushed out, and she blames it on her race. ♪ ♪

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howard: harvard president claudine gay held on to her job even after the disastrous testimony before congress. >> calling for the genocide of j well, -- jews violates harvard code of conduct, correct. >> again, it depends on the context. >> it does not depend on the context. the answer is yes, and this is why you should resign. howard: but harvard's board kept making excuses for gay even as she didn't dispute mounting alsos of plagiarism. finally, the board demands she quit, she said nothing about anti'emtism or plagiarism. >> predict predictably, she claim she's been subjected to personal attacks and threats fueled by racial animus. well, that was exactly e what the media was waiting for.

>> the fact that she's a black woman and the first person who is a black american to the lead harvard only added to their thirst to dethrone her. they're racist because you can hear and see the racism, the attacks. howard: clay travises, in a new york times op-ed claudine gay admitted she, quote, made mistakes at the hearing on anti-semitism and didn't do proper attribution in her research which is a lame euphemism for plagiarism. but then she says her opponents, that the court -- [no audio] recycled tired, racist stereotypes about black talent and temperament. >> yeah, it's not true. i don't think there's any doubt at all. look, i understand that argument because it allows her to not address what she said at the congressional hearing and also

all of the plagiarism and all of the limited, be honest, amount of scholarship that she's produced over the years. to me, this argument falls flat on its face if you just look what happened to list liz magill, the university of pennsylvania's president. she was fired. she's a white woman who was also testifying in front of congress. she was fired far more rapidly than claudine gay and, to my knowledge, she didn't have a long history of plagiarism in her scholarship. so if anything, claudine gay's race actually protected her longer than it would have if she had been a white woman or if she had been a white man. i think once that testimony combinedded with plagiarism happened, race and gender didn't matter at all. howard: right. >> she was actually done for. howard: you anticipated my next question. but, lucy, initial tweet by the associated press, harvars president's resignation highlights new conservative weapon, plagiarism. sorry, conservatives didn't

bring down claudine gay -- [laughter] and plagiarism is a serious academic offense, stealing someone else 's words. >> yes. that was a poorly-composed tweet. but the spirit of it is right. i mean, christopher rue foe, who was one -- christopher rufo, who is one of the kind of, like, leading figures to get rid of claudine gay, the next day had an op-ed in the "wall street journal" where he said, the headline was how we squeeze harvard to push claudine gay out. conservatives can prevail in the culture wars by understanding how power works and using it. culture wars, warrior, weaponizing, right? so i don't think thats it is that far off base to say that tactics were implemented here, that -- i just don't think, let's not make a mountain out of a molehill out of one ap tweet. howard: all right. sure, you can look at this and say some conservatives played a role. absolutely. but that was toward the end and, clay are, major news outlets

stayed on the case of plagiarism until, again, not long before she resigned the conservative washington free beacon found yet more examples in gay's 1997 dissertation. why is the storyline that only the right cares about plagiarism? liberals like plagiarism? [laughter] >> no. it's because they don't want the acknowledge that one of their chosen progressives, and claudine gay is on their team, is capable of being taken down, right? there's no way to defend the testimony in front of congress. i don't think anybody has been able to provide a very coherent one. and so the reality is the reason that all three of these women got in trouble, mit, penn and harvard, is because they saw congresswoman stefanik as a antagonist as opposed to just listening to her question and answering out honestly. they dent want to give any ground to her which is what part partisans do, and the same partisans don't want to give

ground on claudine gay because it opens up others to attack, and they're going to line up in this world that we live in and defend if their guy or gal. howard: right, right. but if any if student at harvard did what chau dean bay did -- >> they'd be done. howard: yeah, they'd bic canned out without a moment's -- kicked out without a moment's notice. i've covered a lot of these cases, and it's usually a serial pattern. the harvard board did, less liberal, obviously, try to save claudine gay, but the ladies and gentlemen if rich allegations just proved to be too damaging to the school. >> yeah. i don't think the storyline is that only people on the right care about a plagiarism are. i also could defend some of the testimony of the university presidents. we don't have time for that right now. i'm a harvard graduate. i'm very engaged with the harvard community. i think it was right for claudine gay to resign. i don't think she could be an effective president anymore. all of these things can be true. it can be true that it was right for her to resign, that it is disturbing that the president of harvard committed plagiarism, it

can be true that the standard is totally different for harvard students, and it can also be true that this event at harvard has become the subject of a national culture wars -- howard: right. >> -- that is only happening because it's harvard. howard: okay, got that go. >> this is one of those times. howard: all right. i didn't know you had a harvard pedigree. remember the liberal gang at "saturday night live" making congresswoman elise stefanik the issue? a quick look. >> oh, my god, can you take a moral stance on anything? can anyone if here say yes to a single question? howard: oh, my god, that doesn't look really good in retrospeck. -- recollect proare spect. thanks so much for joining us. up next, we'll two to israel to look at why it's pulling some troops out of gaza and the supreme court's smackdown of bibi's judicial reform. ♪ ♪ new neutrogena hydro boost water cream. a vital boost of nine times more hydration*

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howard: the israelis stunned the world by announcing they were i withdrawing some troops from gaza, about 12,000, in what could signal a new phase of the war against hamas. joining us now from israel, fox news correspondent trey yingst. this decision of pulling out some number of troops, is it driven in part by pressure from the biden administration to lower the temperature and reduce civilian casualties? >> reporter: yeah, howie, it's a great question. and it signals to the americans that israel is looking to go into the next phase of this ground operation inside gaza. overnight rear admiral daniel -- the top spokesman for the israeli military, indicated the israelis have maintained operational control over northern gaza. this means they have dismantled hamas' capabilities to fight the israelis on the ground in large numbers. there will still be pockets of fighters in different areas of northern gaza, and there will still be an israeli military presence there, but it will be released from when the initial

ground operation began. they've indicated two brigades will be taken back home, and they can return to their normal lives here in israel, return to jobs in cities like till ea -- tel aviv. and three brigades will have their soldiers moved into a training facility in the southern part of israel to prepare for what could come in the next weeks or months ahead. the israelis understand the next front will be from the north, and there is a possibility that a larger regional conflict erupts, so they want to make sure that two things happen. one, israel's economy does not suffer too much from the war inside gaza and, two, they're prepared if a war does erupt at a full scale with the lebanese group hezbollah. howard: a full scale mobilization in israel, clearly, hurts the economy. you kind of set up the next question. the mutual rocket fire between israel and hezbollah in lebanon, that firing 40 rockets at israelis when say no casualties, it seems to be reaching a new

stage. the press always says war on the brink, we're facing the risk of wider war. but i'm still starting to feel like we're already there. your judgment. >> reporter: yeah, you're exactly right. there is a conflict unfolding in the northern part of israel as we speak. there has been active engagement along the border between israel and lebanon since october 8th. now yesterday the lebanese military group backed by iran, hezbollah are, fired more than 40 rockets into israel. the israelis say there were no casualties or significant damage, but it's an indication that hezbollah is already involved in this fight. when you talk to israeli officials, they say war in the north is not a question of if, but when. they are leaving the possibility of a diplomatic solution on on the table, but they say it's unlikely, and they are preparing for that larger war understanding that if a ground operation goes into lebanon, or there will be significant rocket and missile fire from the group hezbollah that will overwhelm, in part, israel's air defense systems. howard: yeah. i think you've she would light

on this question, and i think we are getting there. i say that tragically because, clearly, a lot more people are going to lose their lives. trey i didn't think, great to see you from israel. thank you so much. next on "mediabuzz," does ron desantis have a shot in iowa and eventually at overtaking donald trump? our conversation right after this. ♪ it's our phone bill! we pay for things that we don't need! bloated bundles, the reckless spending! no more... (mom) that's a bit dramatic... a better plan is verizon. it starts at 25 dollars a line. (dad) did you say 25 dollars a line? (sister) and save big on things we love, like netflix and max! (dad) oh, that's awesome (mom) spaghetti night -- dinner in 30 (dad) oh, happy day! (vo) a better plan to save is verizon. it starts at $25 per line guaranteed for 3 years and get both netflix and max for just $10/mo. only on verizon. so... - we're engaged! - we're engaged! congrats carol! your youngest finally popped the question. but now, you're really going to have to get those new dentures. after all, you need a smile that matches the moment.

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howard: with ron desantis put all a his chips on the iowa caucuses just over a week away, i had a chance to talk to the florida governor as he spent several days campaigning in the state. ron ron desantis, welcome. howard: good to see you. happy new year. howard: happy new year to you. you've said the media, the left, everyone's going to want you to fail as president. i know you didn't have a great relationship with journalists in florida, but it's not like national journalists are in love with donald trump. so why does everyone, in your words, want you to fail in the national media? >> well, look, i think it's a

couple things. i mean, they've seen what we've done in florida which is win huge victories both at the ballot box, of course, in november '22, but also deliver really big victories on issues that republicans and conservatives really care about. for example, there's now news about we did reforms to protect teachers regard aing teacher union dues, compulsory dues and, of course, we beat fauci on covid, soros on crime, we beat the democrats on election integrity. so i think folks who tonight want to see a republican win or do well see me as somebody that would be able to deliver on all these things nationally like we did in florida. howard: last week on the show we looked at a new york times, essentially, a political obituary for your campaign, practically said you barely have a pulse. i don't know, you look pretty healthy to me. but, listen, it's not any secret that you have had funding problems this year, personnel shake-ups, layoffs, a slide in the polls. so does the coverage create a

cycle where some people are saying look at all the coverage, i guess the guy can't win? >> i don't think so. here in iowa in particular because we're here, i think they get the media has an agenda. but, look, i get it. no matter when we got endorsed by governor reynolds, it was not something that the media a wanted to make a big deal of because it didn't fit the narrative. i think it's going to play to my advantage in iowa because with i'm able to say i'm the one guy the media doesn't want to do well, they're coming after me. is there any better endorsement for a republican candidate than to be the candidate that the media doesn't want? and i get a plot of cheers when i say that -- a lot of cheers when i say that. howard: i get that. two-part question. one is should you have ramped occupy -- up your criticism of donald trump earlier? and at the same time, you're making the rounds now, morning joe, c cnn a lot, should you have broken out of the conservative media bubble much earlier? >> i actually have been doing

that the starting in the summer, you know? in florida it was a little bit different because the national corporate media was largely just trying to impose narrative on my state. and my view was i can just go out ever day, i get the local coverage. and that actually worked. i think when you're talking about a national campaign, you know, it's just a daily churn, and i think that i've shown an ability that i can go out and handle all this stuff in ways that, like, a nikki haley has obviously had trouble. she's basically been pumped up by the media. now, you know, she's had a lot of problems answering basic questions. i'm going to do the debate with cnn on january 10th in iowa. i wish donald trump would show up to that debate. howard: since you brought up the. >> cnn candidate debate on wednesday night, what do you brake -- make of donald trump's counterprom programming by agreeing to a fox news town hall at the same hour? >> well, that's the thing. he could easily -- he's going to

be in iowa. he could show up and debate and have to answer questions, and he just chooses not to do that. he's not attended any debates. he doesn't do much campaigning. he's got a lot of air cover from the media, and so he, you know, he's gotten away with it so far. i do think it'll hurt him, ultimately, on caucus night. incidentally, i committed if fox wanted to do a debate, i said i would do one on fox. howard: okay. now, you criticized trump for not building the border wall as he had talked about. how would you get it done? i know you've talked about taxing remittances or money that migrants send home to their home countries. but if you're going to stop migrants from coming across the border in the first place, how does that work? if. >> well, you're definitely going to -- no no. howe howie, we're not talking about illegal labor. you have people that are on visas that are in different programs that work and send money back, and that's about $so 100 billion a year. even a small fee would raise enough money to build the border

wall. howard: president biden gave a speech on friday in which he said donald turn's lies led to the violence of january 6th. very personal attack speech. you have said that president trump should have known that by calling his supporters to a rally on january 6th that things might get out of hand. so do you agree with joe biden? >> well, i don't think -- no, because i don't think the intention of it was what happened. i think it was supposed to be a protest, and i think there were a lot of people that were frustrated. you know, joe biden will say lies, but if you remember the aftermath of that election, howie, you had states that were taking days to count the ballots. and so when that happens and one candidate's winning on election night and then it switches, even if everything somehow is on the up and up, that leaves a very littleer -- bitter taste in the mouth. do we want the 2024 election as republicans to be about january 6th, reel issues -- legal issues, criminal cases and a referendum on donald trump all things him, or do we want to

focus it on holding biden accountable and focusing on the american people's issues? me as the nominee, we're not going to have to worry about those issues. we will look forward, we will hold biden accountable. and my fear is if donald trump were to be the nominee, the democrats have a maybook with how to weaponize if things like january 6th. howard: you just accused the former president of flip-flopping on the sanctity of life, those are your words. i know you're referring to his opposition to a national abortion ban and also his saying that what a you've done in florida, a 6-week ban, is not a good message for republicans. but pro-life groups seem to be saying very nice things about donald trump right now. and so my question is, could he be closer to the national consensus than you are? >> well, here's the thing, it has nothing to do with with the national because there are pro-lifers that have different views on whether the federal government, states should take the lead on this. what i'm referring to is him

attacking the heartbeat protection bills, legislation in places like iowa and saying that's a terrible, terrible thing. you know, that's the whole reason the pro-life movement wanted to see the dobbs case, to be able to provide legal protections for an unborn that has a detectable heartbeat. so he has trashed that. he has -- when i debated gavin newsom, gavin newsom used trump's words as a weapon to try to hit me and to try to hit pro-lifers around the country. so that was just the reality of the situation. and, look, some of these pro-life groups to be honest, you know, have had different political agendas. it's been disappointing, quite frankly, to see since dobbs. but if there's any pro-life group that is going to go on record and say that a heartbeat bill like in iowa or south carolina is a terrible, terrible thing, then i don't think that they can consider themselves to be pro-life groups at that point. and if what he said is much different than the speech he gave at the march for life where he was saying things that were much more in line with with

traditional pro-life principles. i've had people after me guns blazing since the the time i took office. what i don't do though is i don't give them a lot of ammunition if apart from the substance. and so they can criticize me on the substance, and we typically win those arguments. and that's really, i think, how you want to frame this stuff. howard: governor ron desantis, thanks very much for joining us. >> thank you. howard: i've asked nikki haley to appear on program several times. that the invitation remains open. after the break, the media now crossing over, clashing over the former president appealing the colorado ballot ban directly to the supreme court. ♪ ♪ [typing] you were made to act spontaneously. we were made to help plan accordingly. ♪ [ tense music ] one aleve works all day so i can keep working my magic.

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howard: when donald trump filed his brief with the supreme court which has just agreed to hear his appeal of the colorado ballot ban, the pundits were immediately divided. >> it's so clearly, fakedly part san -- nakedly partisan, anti-democratic, anti-american and unconstitutional. i think they're going to overturn it, and that decision then will apply if across the board to all 50 states. >> he's base yes just -- basically just throwing stuff on the wall and seeing what would stick. howard: joining us now,carier bond, fox news legal editor. everyone i kind of knew the supreme court would take this case, but the part about trump being an insurrectionist, that won't actually be before the justice system, right? >> you know, what's going to be

interesting to see see is how the supreme court decides to take this on because there are so many gray areas in the section of the constitution. and i did think a brief that was filed, an amicus brief, friend of the court brief filed by republicans, they filed it just a couple of days ago, makes an interesting point. there's longstanding supreme court press tent that says states may not alter qualification to the office of the president. they say colorado did that here because if you look at the section of the constitution, it e talks about what may disqualify someone from holding office, not seeking office. so can you remove the right for americans to vote for the candidate of their choose, and i thought that was an interesting argument. howard: what do you make of some media liberals saying, yeah, trump's an insurrectionist, he's a threat to democracy and he should be -- kicked off? >> who decides that? he wasn't convicted of it politically.

in his impeachment trial, he wasn't convicted. justice department hasn't brought that charge, so who decides whether he has committed insurrection in me? you? if a single justice official in? michigan said otherwise. governor newsom said we're not doing that here in california. so what's being created is this untenable patchwork of rules as we approach this 2024 election, and that's why the supreme court has to get involved. and how they choose to go about it is going to be very interesting. howard: well, it's not me or you, but we do talk. [laughter] have "the new york times" or washington post editorial boards taken the stand against barring colorado and maine voters for voting for the are republican front-runner? >> i hadn't seen that, "the washington post" mantra democracy dies in darkness, yet i think everyone whether they want to say it out loud or not knows we are barreling towards the chaos. if what has happened remains the way it is. because when we remove the right

to vote from an entire bloc of voters, effectively disenfranchising them from the candidate of their choosing, chaos, of course, is going to ensue in a free country. and that ease because the right of people to participant in a free and fair election is a hallmark of american democracy. you take that away, chaos happens. howard: cannot argue9 with the diagnosis of chaos. trump sent me and other journalists a 32-page letter written by an aide but with the help of lawyers saying that hundreds of thousands of votes were stolen in 2020. leaving aside the political wisdom of relitigating the last election again and the washington post says his inner circle was divided, the media basically ignored it although "the washington post" a couple days called it a mess. >> you know, i saw the document. i have not gone through it myself yet. as you know, howie, i was at the justice department when bill barr made the announcement there was not enough fraud to have impacted the outcome of the

election. now, the key in that statement was there was not enough, it wasn't to say there was no fraud, but there wasn't enough to have substantively impacted the outcome of the election. so when i end up taking a look at this document or we all look through it, no one said there the wasn't any fraud, just that there wasn't enough to -- howard: that's the key standard. >> -- if that's the key here. howard: my issue is that trump's argument was he had the election won in five swing states until the late vote came in from big city, and journalists had been warning for days this was the likely scenario. republican-tilted votes come early and democratic areas always report late. so i didn't think that was -- i don't know i don't think that proved the case. >> yeah, it's one that i think the former e is going to continue to litigate into 2024. we'll is have to do do our to go through those claims and piece out what we think is true and what we think is maybe a per speckive that is biased by somebody who very much wants to

win the next election. howard: right. we are still talking about it -- >> right. here we are, how many years later. howard: yes, exactly. kerri urban, appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. howard: the media a play out president biden's new line of attack against donald trump and january 6th. ♪ (vo) explore the world the viking way from the quiet comfort of elegant small ships with no children and no casinos. we actually have reinvented ocean voyages, designing all-inclusive experiences for the thinking person. viking - voted world's best by both travel + leisure and condé nast traveler. learn more at viking.com.

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howard: the shifting campaign tactics had already been leaked to the press, but president biden unloaded on the previous president in a speech near valley forge. >> because of donald trump's lies, they died because these lies brought them all to washington. trying to rewrite the facts of january 6th, trump is trying to steal history the same way he tried to steal the election. howard: and the former president hit back. finish. >> now we have a president who's

a great danger to democracy, he really is. howard: joining us now, jacqui heinrich who covers the white house for fox news, excuse me. how big a shift is this for the biden campaign? because in one speech tied to yesterday's third anniversary of january 6th, but at the same time, not talking about bidenomics or all the laws he passed. >> well, i wouldn't say it's a shift only because this has been their plan all along. they have been planning to single out trump's conduct on january 6th ever since it happened january 6th, 2021. for them, you know, they think it worked in 2020 the -- howard: right. >> they think it worked in the 2022 midterm, and it also worked in the state and local elections this past november, playing up the threat that they say republicans pose to american freedoms, freedom of choice, reproductive rights, all the things they normally say. so this hasn't exactly been a change, but it was certainly his most vocal criticism of january 6th and donald trump.

howard: right. well, poland or not -- planned or not, bind's poll numbers have been abysmal. and at the same time, you know, here he is in such a personal way calling donald trump sick and then stopping himself. is this a tacit admission that the campaign strategy until now has simply not worked? >> i don't know if it's an admission of that only because, you know, this has been their plan. there's plenty of polling, as you mentioned, to show that the campaign is struggling. howard: but is it a one-off, or are we going to a hear more in this vein. >> this is going to be their plan all the way up until november, and they have already signaled that by not having the president do a lot of media interviews or sit-down interviews to get into the issues that voters are upset about; bidenomics, inflation, the economy, the border. they don't want to talk about that, those are losing issues for them. and that brings up other concerns like the president's age, his underwater polling, they're challenges. they think they can win by focusing on trump. they feel very comfortable that they can win with trump as his

opponent in 2024. howard: i suppose it's also what you do when your own numbers are low and you want to shift the spotlight and the referendum to the other guy. but here you have the former president punching back saying biden is the threat to democracy, he's the one who's weaponizing law enforcement with these prosecutions. so does it move the needle for voters when both presidents are making different versions of the same charge? >> i guess we're going to find out in the election. but i think that, you know, for right or wrong the biden campaign has calculated that the these issues, when they're highlighted to voters, compel if voters to vote out of fear. maybe not out of excitement for a second term agenda, but if they can play up all of the atrocities of january 6th, they think that'll get people out to the ballot box. i think what you're going to see more of is what we're starting to see signals of is the campaign criticizing media coverage of the campaign and of their coverage of january 6th. you had a couple campaign

spokespeople say, oh, look at this, headlines about biden clash aring over january 6th, why aren't you using terms like insurrection, attack on democracy. you're going to see more of that. howard: so they create critique the president's conduct, but, of course, a lot of politicians do that. defense secretary lloyd austin not telling the press for five days he was hospitalized. so much for transparency. that's it for this edition of "mediabuzz." i'm howard kurtz. quick mention that, just a suggestion that you subscribe to my daily podcast, media buzz mete per. there you see our logo. we are back here next sunday, 11 eastern, that'll be one day before the iowa caucuses. so hope you'll be around for that that show. it'll be a special one. we've been talking about this for a year, right? see you then with the only media analysis show on national television. ♪ ! every day can be extraordinary with rich,

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