why modern. >> john: of probation from trey gowdy before -- from the prosecution like dave's impartial humor usually is not a great idea for injury in a criminal case or make that will do it for us. from joanne roberts will see you tomorrow. >> sandra: great to be with you. there was a busy two ours. i'm chandler smith. "the story for metrics right

now with trays. >> andres gallagher information mcauley and this is "the story," right now prosecution about an hour in the closing arguments and former president trump's criminal trial. -- the greatest leire of all time. outside the courtroom stark reminder that all of this is happening against the backdrop of the 2024 election the biden campaign holding a news conference during robert de niro. cream trump weekly firing back. watch... >> we don't want to act -- wake up after the election saying again? my god. what the hell have we done? >> if you don't think this is politics why do the democrats will out a retread like robert de niro to try to change the size -- subject? >> hannah brandt has been inside and take -- but first to the correspondent nate foy

he is life are as outside the courtroom as you has been for the past few weeks. good afternoon. hi, trace. right now prosecutors are really addressing michael cohen's credibility concern saying former president donald trump picked cohen ended and picked cohen as a witness probably only used him because they had to in this case the midrash mustang last with the manhattan da office officer that cohen is understandably and really getting the only one peter price in this conspiracy to win the 2016 presidential election. trump's lawyers objected to that but were overruled by judge one mission despite signaling during jury instruction last week that cohen's guilty plea could not imply trump's gold. during closing arguments for employers rely heavily on cohen's credibility concern and donald trump junior oaks -- address that insert -- outside the court house this afternoon. >> i think part of large sums it up best. if there was an mvp got in there was a goat of

lawyers is michael cohen. michael cohen is the embodiment of reasonable doubt. >> so blanche laid out ten reasons for reasonable doubt in this case. he says there is no evidence that trump parts by any business record, no evidence trump did anything unlawful to influence the 2018 -- 2016 election. sang glass just now in court offered a much different perspective saying there's a couple mountain of evidence connecting evidence connecting trump doulas kim pigeau blanche that the only person doing that is michael cohen. he argued cohen lied several times during testimony including when cohen claimed that he work for free in 2017 and then all payments he received were in front -- for the stormy daniels payment. blanche told the jury, "i don't know how many allies are enough lies to reject mr cohen's testimony." blanche says all payments made to cohen really get -- blanche also reminded the jury about former trump aide for pigs testimony where hague said worried about his family and his wife

hoffinger and the stormy daniels story resurface which is important because during jury instruction last week judge merchan said that if the jury found that the smacks other than politics that it cannot be considered a campaign contribution. trace? >> trace: nate foy live outside the courthouse. must bring in fox news on the anchor and chief legal correspondent shannon breen, she's been inside the courtroom today, now she's outside. some others are inside. in one of those who is now inside is trey gowdy and he dusted the following, "if you are wondering about the definition of the word speculation we just got it." going on to say, "the prosecution said trump will likely not have won of doreen di nino story not been suppressed." tracing, "stupid me that it might have been a number of times hillary clinton visited wisconsin or maybe her e-mails." to receive kind of pattern forming inside for closing arguments but what you think about that?

>> yeah, sew prosecution needs people to believe that this stormy daniels story was all about paying her off so that it would save the election for president trump. but we earlier weeks ago in a trial her that there was a lot of consternation within the team when the access hollywood tape broke. they say they were putting out fires all over the place handling a number of things and so they would argue this one thing the stormy daniels player cava nondisclosure agreements which is legal everybody agrees cadillac and i have nothing that type of this entire election as trey gowdy rightly points out there all kind of other things that came to fruition and here in new york i think it was over 80% voted for president biden. to internetwork here in new york if that was part of the plan. there are so many things going on at this trial between the defense and prosecution now jamming these five, six weeks of argument italy's final submissions. both sides are spending a lot of time about michael cohen because the defense that today if he's the guy that allegedly doulas with him because remember the other people in these critical

meetings that have been named have not been called as witnesses. you have to ask whether prosecution has not called but when they say understand would be bad for the case and then you hear the prosecution say we've got mountains of evidence is not just about michael cohen but a lot of folks are saying where isn't? we haven't seen it. >> trace: what do you make of -- you talk about michael cohen and he as we said earlier the defense called him the g.l.o.a.t. catholic readers leire of all time. what do you think of the strategy when the prosecution comes back and they're saying listen michael cohen, you know, is not the most honest guy in the world but he does tell the truth sometimes. are trying to rehabilitate him. >> yeah, and both sides have to be careful with how they try him and how they -- eat not on trial but how they portray because remember if the defense beats him up too much the question becomes this guy was sort of president trump's right-hand man, he was a fixture, he was getting things done, if you're saying he was just a lying super shady guy who was handling all kinds of

unseemly things waited to have him in your orbit? for the defense has to be careful on that front. but addressing what has been very easy for them to see by his own admission he is light in all these cases that we outlined in the last hour, who is banker, "his wife, with kids, peaceful from his boss, he'd like to state and further all judges calculate to congress for the prosecution -- empty lies adventurers have to ask themselves if he -- is he lying now? has he been lying on a stand here in new york? that's what really matters. >> trace: and you wonder, you read these texts coming up from jonathan turley and trey gowdy and from andy mccarthy and they're all saying, hey, guess what? we just got -- we've got some clarity on the actual floor -- crime to cover up and election law violation. that's what the prosecution has no kind of weaving towards we for the first ti time. >> yeah, and nothing in they will have to clarify that because otherwise as we talked about this would be a misdemeanor situation with the statute of limitations would have run it already.

you've got to have an underlying crime to turn this in to a felony can get passed the statute of limitation and get an conviction in this case. i'm sorry you might have something coming in? >> trace: it's interesting here because they're going at the sting, stained-glass seems -- this is jonathan turley at times the beginning testimony without objection from the defense or introduction from the court, he has been explaining what is common in politics and the media and they're talking about this catch and kill whole thing that david packer and what he's saying is that now they're trying to say this was what really influenced the election. to take stormy daniels out of the mix here and there is no way that trump wins this in 2016. >> and think about what we heard from hope hex and others understand who essentially were saying this was something that was not just a campaign consideration. according to them under oath that president trump was very worried about how these things would play with hoffinger. he was worried about protecting his family.

and so that is where the jury instructions will be so important was this solely about quieting a story that would hurt the campaign visit or limit -- turn into camping violation, and electrolobe i will -- arrest is also about other things got protecting his reputation, protecting his family actually gives wide, many men would make the argument that would be the most important thing for th them. >> trace: and being fully have like 45 seconds left but i want to know going back to the defense called the arguments back did you think that they made an effective case for michael cohen really being the g.l.o.a.t.? >> wendy sunday and up at the end it take up all the patient. he's been caught or admitted to lancaster has to be a powerful thing fully with the jury's last single heel from the plans and it was laid bear. it was not a gray area was black and white that this is where he's been cut and this is where he's admitted to it so you have to decide if he lying to you. >> trace: sharon william back will get back u.s. information comes from the court we appreciate your time, thank you. meet him at closing arguments

are made there's a lot of focus on the jurors and who is paying them -- the most attention. trump attorney woll sharp was inside the courtroom today in manhattan and he will give us his insight coming up. and as americans share their own thoughts on the trial of former president trump watch... >> i think it's a total farce and if it's not thrown up i will be shocked. >> if you break the law you should be held accountable. is broken the law many, many times and -- he never been held accountable. >> effect looked at this case years ago and said we are not going to charge him and now it's being done in the state completely for political reasons. michael starr witness has fallen apart, there's no evidence. is completely politically motivated. because i know so many of you have served our country honorably. one of the benefits that we as a country give you as a veteran is the eligibility for a va loan, for up to 100 percent of your home's value. if you need cash for your family call newdayusa. with automatic authority

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closing arguments and former president trump trial in the city then comes a crucial step the judge's instructions to the jury before they begin their deliberations. trump attorney will shop in jan -- he was in court today but let's begin with katie cherkasky were normal defense attorney and for -- former federal prosecutor. went to have you. i just want to read this because this just came out from andy mccarthy who is inside the courtroom i know and he says, "they are making up federal campaign law as they go along after giving the defense no notice in the indictment that this was part of the charges," and what he's talking about is over the election fraud saying it was done to cover up and election law violation so we are starting to get some information about this underlying felony. what do you think about that? >> i think that alone there's been an insinuation that the idea of the escalating of fence was some sort of

election violation or campaign finance valley -- violation but the judge did not force the prosecution to disclose that theory and the -- is one of many reason that the case has what we would consider reversible error for it -- appellate purposes. the problem is when you're at trial the judge has the ultimate say in how this case proceeds. so certainly there is not a huge surprise but the defense was not formally on notice that there was a specific theory nor has been an up -- so the idea that there was no campaign finance violations here as we note that the fac just declined to take any action against president trump for the payment in this case. >> trace: right and that's why you're here andy mccarthy and trey gowdy keep seeing the strike zone seems to be different for the prosecution then it is for the defense. jonathan turley writes the following out-of-court, "steinglass is not directly claiming that the catch and kill what the legal campaign contribution despite the fact that the federal government rejected this claim and did not find any basis for even if some -- civil fine."

so the feds rejected it and know your estate taking this. your thoughts on all that? >> i think on the prosecution had wanted to the fact that michael cohen ultimately pled guilty to a campaign-finance violation for this particular payment and there's a lot of discussion about whether there was even about a charge, it was thrown into his plea agreement that he was completely backed up against the wall with other charges against him though there's a question about whether he would even be convicted of that and certainly the condition of another person has nothing to do with this particular defendant or metro i think it's a cheap shot by the prosecution here. i think that the -- should not have been able to be reported in terms of what this other offense was. and they had an opportunity to do so and unfortunately they do not get the last word here the population gets the close. >> trace: are you surprised that there not more objections from the defense on this type of prosecutions and maybe a little bit of more input from the judge?

>> i am a little bit surprised. i do think that -- personally i think it's important to object when necessary, i don't think it matters to the jury, the victim argument that maybe you can annoy them or something along those lines but the judge has also been very critical of the defense in terms of their objections and when they do not need to preserve those things. i think it's a strategic decision however there are some very openly objectionable things that the prosecution is saying that i think they should probably jump in on. >> trace: and what about the rehabilitation of michael cohen for the prosecution? as we've said all in the defense is calling the greatest lawyer of all time in the prosecution is not semi- rehabilitating but also say, yeah, i mean he lies but he also told the truth sometimes. >> while the prosecution has to concede that he has significant credibility issues obviously. the only way they can really use his testimony is that they get up there and independently corroborate everything that he said with some other piece of evidence and they simply don't have that here. there is not corroboration

for everything that he said. he is undeniably a layer. i don't think that the jury can use his testimony directly on any of these elements. >> trace: yeah. is going to be tough. katie cherkasky winnett avenue your initial as always. thank you. also with us will shop an attorney for the former president in his immunity case, he was in court today. he's also running for missouri attorney general as a republican. is great to have you on the show. i want to know because you were in court today you have a chance to look at the jury. what was the reaction? did they find a defense's cloning arguments compiling? what was your takeaways? >> what the jury what does this morning i think was a systematic dismantling of the prosecution's case piapot blanche. blanche give them ten independent reasons why hearing upper on the evidence -- where they can vote to convict and what i saw from the jury was attentiveness that was a serious attention to detail. i think they seemed interested by todd's argument and as a defense lawyer

that's really all you can ask for and hope for. regarding this morning went extremely well for president trump for our team and we will have to see how the afternoon wraps up. >> trace: it's interesting. when these notes come out of the courtroom, were going to talk to howard kurtz about this in a minute but your thoughts on the overflow room being amused and very amused the media there by some of the prosecution the prosecution's comical statements? >> i think the media is fundamentally with -- misrepresented and perhaps miss entered this case mr. this is not a cowboy case, this is not a stormy daniels case. this is ultimately a fairly mundane case about business records and i think what blanche did an outstanding job of this morning was showing that with respect to the records and question, "the prosecution had failed to meet its evidentiary burden on numerous elements of the charging defenses and i think all the laughter and the media room really does not matter because i think the media does not get this

case that has not from the start and i think is ultimately going to be borne out once jury comes out with the verdict. >> trace: i wonder what you think about the clarity of the underlying crime here catalyst felony where they're saying now in closing arguments the prosecution that it was all done to -- cutting here, "cover up an election law violation?" >> i think is currently absurd cap i think it's insane that within the harnack clarity on what the underlying crime was for this long. but again without business records fraud there is no case. and i think we have made the case. we have made the case quite persuasively that there was no business records for an capita business records in question were accurate, that was certainly no fraudulent intent with respect to how they were made. and for those reasons alone any surgery i believe wood speedily equip -- adequate. >> trace: and i wonder because there's been a lot of comments coming out from the court today that the prosecution now going into this underlying crime, right capita thing they bootstrap these 34 counts two, i wonder if the fact that the jury is

just now hearing this makes it so complicated when really the defense's closing arguments was fairly simple saying simple saying michael cohen is a liar and that's that. >> i think that's exactly right. in our argument here is really very simple. these records were not rod linden. michael cohen is a liar. to believe the prosecution you have to believe that they've proven beyond a reasonable doubt this far-reaching conspiracy for which there really is no evidence in the record. i think ultimately the jury is going to say that and that's why we are very confident heading the liberation. >> trace: i also just leslie here i want to bring this up because this was something that happened right before the break with the judge lashed out at the defense copy was very upset relation -- what was your take on that comment in the judge's response? >> i think a lot is being made of it but at the end of

the day todd blanche had a two and a half hour long submission promoters meant to be something that come in the submission like that that maybe working your vexing mannequin i think there is a very minor footnote on what was an outstanding summation bite hard payment and i think it also underline the states here. what we're talking about here is president trump's political and -- president biden's political all i attempting to throw his principal opponent who is working him in every national poll in this presidential race potentially in prison and i think that underlining those stakes is very important. and i in the courtroom knows that. >> trace: because he said the stakes were so high you were in the courtroom, what was the jury's response meant this back-and-forth was going on? >> the back-and-forth between judge tran one and todd happen after the jury left the room. to one really does heard is a quick objection which was sustained and todd moved on from there. i don't see this having any meaningful impact on jury deliberations. >> trace: and when the jury actually heard the statement that you can't send someone

to prison for this whether a reaction you notice? >> i didn't notice any particular reaction. think everyone in the courtroom as -- is well aware of what the stakes are here but i think i think that he take away from this morning in the systematic dismantling of the prosecution's case. there is no evidence that business record product or here there's no evidence that these business records were even fascinating todd just did an outstanding job laying that out with crystal clarity. >> trace: will scharf caraquet have you on the show. thank you. meantime actor robert de niro and were slashing oregon former president trump today is a race for the white house spells out on the streets of new york. next. >> if trump returns to the white house, you can kiss these freedoms could buy that all take for granted. and elections? forget about it. >> what you just heard from is a desperate and feeling empathetic campaign who knows that they are losing.

but this one was just way off the rails. >> yeah. i thing that they are feelings and -- some desperation. joe biden' campaign strategy this entire time was for donald trump to be tied up in the court to be able to potentially pop is doing better in the polls now than he was in 2016,

then in 2020. and so joe biden is not left with a lot here. but i think that we should take a moment and recognize the significance of what's happening, right, right now that we have the democrat party trying to jail the republican nominee and the precedent that that could send, the fact that they are trying to get him on 34 felonies, 136 years in jail. and that all hinges on the testimony and the word of a convicted felon, michael cohen, who admitted to stealing

they'll be the ultimate determiners of what happens here. you're exactly right. yeah, but you go back to this thing being a wash, and i think sean duffy, when you look at this whole thing, you're like, well, maybe. but the democrats clearly feel like they're behind. you have former obama speech writer jon favreau writing on ex. let's face it,

if the election were held today, trump probably wins. he goes on to say trump probably wins. only way to stop that persuade as many people as we can to vote for joe biden. yes, that's biden's job. it's also ours because we'll have to live the jurors get confused. so smart on team trump. but just one quick comment, trace that you get the prosecution to go

last, right? they're the last ones to talk to the jury. they're the ones that get to rebuff the defense's arguments. it's a really powerful tool. and by the way they were intently watching and they were all in one lesson you can't send anybody to prison on this basis not really a big jury reaction lisa. >> will will see what ultimately happens but we haven't even demonstrated that a misdemeanor took place. michael cohen is only one alleging that donald trump had anything to do with the

falsification of business records and have not been able to demonstrate that. what could potentially happen here is that the only trial dominating headlines heading into november's hunter biden's grandchild. thing that is why you have joe biden freaking out right now, that's why joe biden is paying a visit to the widow of his son, or paying, you know, paying a visit to her ahead of this trial as well. i think he is really nervous about that and then you look at how donald trump and his campaign have handled all of this. holding those massive rallies in new jersey and new york two states where he's been able to close the gap significantly in pulling. to spend money on tv and radio ads in the deep blue bronx before that rally. so you have to give credit to the trump campaign and really handling this really -- handling this beautifully and taking it terrible like a terrible thing and turning it in to a campaign positive. >> trace: richard pellerin out to you, craig oliver from

the courthouse adjusted according here, "there you go on objection from the defense and a quick overrule from the judge prosecution is both arguing and testifying without guardrails and you have trey gowdy -- saying listen he's never seen the stripes down so big for the prosecution and so small for the defense. >> look that ultimately this will be determination of what happens with the jerry mcfeeters brenda locke magnus around whether or not we think that this judge could or should or is or isn't corrupt. and there isn't no clear evidence of that but we do know that there are --'s evidence of the jury is designing right now. is there enough evidence to determine whether or not depends -- former president committed or misdemeanor or committed a felony? we'll be on the jury demand lawyers who understand that rule of law, who understand the new york criminal code and will probably use that -- i think it will be the jay mckee jurors in this case. not any of us sitting here. and -- i think over about a jury trial which has

not been televised. so we don't know any of the body, we don't know any of the -- other thing that would help us make the determination. >> trace can i -- [simultaneous talking] this judge donated to joe biden! here daughter -- >> -- >> if your daughter works for members of congress raising money for them and then to trey gowdy's point where the strike zone is so large for the prosecution and so small for the defense it begs the question, richard, has there been -- has this been a fare trial and i think most fare observers will go no one who spends time in a courtroom had ever seen anything like this from a judge -- the judge is there to protect the defendants rights and make sure he has a fare trial. this is not what the judge had done which is why so many people scratching their hands and why we all think it will be overturned and there is a conviction on appeal your magma the problem is democrats get to run a campaign on donald trump with a conviction even though it could be overturned on app appeal. >> trace: just not understanding action the fee before -- was also very

successful prosecutor, trey gowdy, "has had many times the worst thing you can do is go over -- after a judge because it just comes across as wining and you has gone after this judge because he said it is very start to see what's happening in the courtroom. richard pollack, sean duffy, lisa boothe thank you all. meanwhile however -- how records in today's new york -- or the army -- arguments in new york in new york persist from next. >> the strongest point in the pentad this morning by far is the ideal do you simply cannot believe michael cohen, especially, especially about what donald trump knew in 2016 back in october about the payments to stormy daniels.

>> ♪ ♪ >> trace: we just got word from another objection from the defense being swallowed down by the judge as the prosecution gives closing arguments. here's what some of the media had to say about how the defense did.

watch... >> this is not as impressive as i thought it was going to be. >> i was struck by his tone and by this manner. you didn't seem fully competent. >> to along, to meandering. >> the defense really failed to make certain key argu arguments. >> todd blanche did he good job defending president trump but it's just not enough. the evidence is overwhelming that the law was broken. >> trace: let's bring in how records, host of media buyers. wait to see you. i was there watching all the e-mails, the same thing the defense have one goal, the defense's goal c. michael cohen is a liar. he is the biggest lawyer on the planet, he had lied, he has admitted like that that was there case and they were pretty effective doing that. >> i think it depends absolutely scored some points. but having taken a lot of notes let me share with you where i thought the defense would be highly selective and the prosecutors as well which i'm sure we'll get to, trace. the trump lawyer todd blanche

started out by saying trump and stormy have repeatedly denied that this took place, hours -- but obviously stormy now testifies that the alleged encounter in 2006 very much that have been. todd blanche said that trump may have been too busy to focus on the checks he signed to cohen in the reimbursement in the money to stormy. -- even incompetent criminals have -- you don't leave a paper trail and the biggest hole i thought for the trump difference is they didn't touch the e-mails, the text, encrypted single messages, the banking records that backup cohen because it will really have an alternative version of events. >> trace: meantime we had this coming from the overflow room. this came at 1:44 i forget whatever the time is from andy mccarthy. he says, "steinglass," document prosecution," makes the argument that -- prosecutors did not choose cohen, we didn't go to the

mid--- witness stored and pick him up. it was not term that picked cohen, -- that's the whole thing is you have the media in the overflow room that are laughing at some of the prosecution's jokes. what do you think about their? >> that is the back -- best insur reaction that i can give you our team there reporting on the left. there were some chuckles on msnbc. but -- they attacked the defense and largely defended the prosecution. now, trace, when it comes to the prosecution also highly selective. -- last the prosecutor saying they tried to storm shaw shame stormy. he said she never changed her story, is preposterous. she lied for a long time after getting the $130,000 per michael cohen your mark cohen did trump's billing for years and the defendant, him loose. excuse me, it was when cohen decided to operate with prosecutors that he cut the truck loose. also cohen is angry, he's

like a lot, he stole from a trump organization copy pay the price for -- by going to prison but don't feel bad about him, it's not really about him. but he -- it is about him because he is the star witness like it or not. and finally lose a bit of absurdity were steinglass reenacted this 92nd call where cohen is saying that he -- he was getting from 14-year-old, trump's bodyguard and stored smart talked about -- that went a little far. >> trace: related and the whole thing was he was expanding the nda, he was explaining into don't jump -- 104 seconds and i was the call. lastly what the media -- were marching on the monitor here, watching msnbc and cnn and when they can't do this in closing arguments for the prosecution the cover up -- to cover up on election law violation. there's nobody -- not willing anything made about that. this is the first time we've heard anything that is actually giving us clarity at

the crime, and the media is okay, yeah, whatever. >> we have waited and waited and waited to find out what this other crime was because i have to be connected otherwise it's just a misdemeanor. people thank of an bragg the coverages for partisan reasons and is some evidence for the packets of a recent case but also the whole business if i could just come back for a second on catch and kill which was discussed at the meeting with the national enquirer -- some version of democracy, legal campaign contribution, i don't think so. it's not illegal to conspire with -- think the biden campaign doesn't talk to friendly media outlets, trace? >> trace: and by the way the court is on a break now. you see the former president walking out of the courthouse. how records, thank you for your insight, we very much appreciate that. meantime the closing arguments heading in to the final hours. a look at the argument for a reasonable doubt that could undo alvin bragg's case against former president trump. carry urban transport from

the courthouse, next. >> there is reasonable doubt all over this case. is simply about the former president know that books, his records are false entries for legal fees go cohen was his lawyer, did he intend to cover up the election? or to protect his family? it's everywhere.

>> ♪ ♪ >> trace: court is known a short break prosecution delivering closing arguments were about 90 minutes so far. they say they're only about a third of the way through. kerri urbahn has had a front row street to the 20 arguments to the damage is the fox news legal editor and former counselor to attorney general bill barr. went to have you on the show. infected just reinforced what was just another jonathan turley just texted the

prosecutor said there are only a third of the way through, yeah, experiment if that's true we're looking for more hours, the final judgement can be accomplished in half that time. four more hours? >> yeah. i know. is crazy, it feels like we're going to be here forever and, of course, once we finish with that the judge needs to instruct the jury which will likely happen tomorrow and then we don't know how long the jury is going to take a deliberate. but it will be interesting. the jury said they were willing to work passed the normal close time at 4:30 today saves we'll see how long we end up staying here. >> trace: is incredible because, you know, trey gowdy was texting earlier and you may have known this that another objection by the defense overruled by the judge he said, "i honestly cannot remember the last defense objection that was sustained. i realize it's closing in broad ledge -- latitude is given but there are still some guardrails vehicle he detects a few minutes saying that, you know, you hasn't seen the rapture or anything, but there was -- the judge did sustain one objection by

the defense. >> yeah, one. [laughter] and the judge in general when it comes to these objections throughout the trial basement a lot of overruling of the defense. so again we'll see how this continues throughout the day. but i thought it was remarkable, trace, that the prosecution said with a straight face that the only reason stormy daniels wanted the world to know about her nda or i'm sorry, her encounter with donald trump was because she wanted to get the story out around the election time so people could know. well we know that is not true because years earlier she tried to shop it around this is by her own testimony, couldn't get anyone to buy it and then of course if she really wanted the story out she wouldn't have turned around and sold her silence in a perfectly legitimate, legal agreements to michael cohen but that's exactly what she did. so the prosecution is making a number of arguments right no and i think our -- it's hard to sit here and listen to with a straight face.

>> trace: and the biggest one, you know, the one he been talking about kerri four weeks is the fact that there has never been any clarity about what they are like -- underlying crime was another saying -- apparently this was all done to cover up on election law violation. what do you think? >> yeah. right. we are finally finding out what the underlying crime is halfway through the closing argument. that is pretty disgraceful. just as far as fundamental notions of you process, you know, in this country the accused has the right to know what they're being accused of. these are fundamental concepts and trained in the fifth and sixth amendment of our constitution and yet here we are learning basically on-the-fly what exactly their persecution has been doing for all of these weeks. as far as the election law violation is concerned, you know, keep in mind it seemed like they're really pointing to a federal election law crime. how they doing that is unclear to all of us considering were not in federal court. this is not the jurisdiction. and -- he would think the

department of justice whose jurisdiction it is if they wanted to bring this case they would have. they did not. and yet somehow here we are years later in the state is constructing this thing and we are somehow supposed to sit here and believe that donald trump committed a crime that's not even whether there jurisdiction to bring? >> trace: and what i don't understand, kerri and not a lawyer so i don't know so maybe you can educate me on this but when you get to the jury instructions from the judge, how does he explain this? they were never told about this underlying crime, this cover-up of election law violation. so how does he explain that when he gives jury instructions? >> right and that's why there was such frustration on the part of the defense for not being able to bring in their election law expert, if former ftc commissioner, to explain the context around the law. and the judge said well you can bring and in what he can only basically talk about his job. will what's the point of that, you know, is retired from that position in the point of bringing in a next

point -- expert is to expand the concept, educate the aliens, etiquette injury. so if he wasn't able to come in next find what your point what we are learning -- how will the rules of jury, nonlawyers, nonexperts even if you're not -- even if you're a lawyer you're not an expert on this field, how will you be able to business together -- >> trace: i know it may be kind of boilerplate stuff just wondering jury instructions just to begin with, how important are they when you're talking about maybe four and a half -- may be the scores five and a half hours the closing by the prosecution. how important are the jury instructions tomorrow morning? >> extremely important. especially because the new york law at issue is vague and two, we are just learning exactly what the prosecution is trying to do this afternoon. so those jury instructions where the judge informs the jury what the law is that what it's not, the context,

the explanation is everything, really when it comes down to it as far as what happened to donald trump. >> trace: and i wonder, kerri, that the defense -- and they make a motion, is there anything that they can due for someone to say wait a minute, your honor,, we just learned about the underlying crime, we've never been told about this, we didn't know how to fight this because it was never on the table, so do we get -- is there some kind of remedy for the defense to be able to have this brought up in court with the jury? >> well that's why it's important to continue to make objections because they have to preserve these issues for appeal and that's how you did. serve the jury were to convict on trump and find him guilty, then we would go back that -- the defense would go back and look at the time the objected, look at the record and that's how they will appeal the case. >> trace: do you think of the fence made its case? you think the defense in closing arguments just going after michael cohen saying listen, michael cohen is a g.l.o.a.t., the greatest player of all time do you think that's enough, you

think that so it's reasonable doubt? >> i think it's even simpler than that. i think what sows reasonable doubt is the very basic question of weather payments to a personal attorney can be categorized as legal expe expenses, you know, to a personal attorney who continued to do work, legal work, throughout the time he was getting reimbursed at the end there is a very basic simple question. could reasonable minds agree that they can categorize it as legal expenses and another person might categorize it as reimbursement plus payment for the services of a personal attorney? so there is a very basic question that they need to get past before they even go to intent to defraud or an underlying crime. and i think the defense's strategy in part is to keep them jury there as much as they can and if they say look if you think it should have been labeled something different that's fine but then you have to believe that donald trump was directly involved in how that was labeled and two that he had ended -- intent to defraud, that's part of this crime. and, of course, the million-dollar question is well who was intending to defraud?

the american public? because it was the american public, then we have a real problem with help politics are run in this country when people were running for office made promises that they don't keep and never intend to keep. so are they going to be held criminally liable after the fact if someone doesn't fulfill -- a person, of order saying, well, you know, what i feel defrauded because my taxes weren't lowered. and so that's [inaudible] not just in case advice if even want to call him that. it opens up a pandora's box for all kinds of things that can come in with politicians in the future. >> trace: and standby, kerri, i just want to bring in your colleagues shannon bream. the question to you would be curious, that's this mean that the day monday december bring in this cover-up an election law violation, we are finally learning the underlying crime, that's this muddy this up for the jury because of the fence was very clear, michael cohen as a liar and i have all these different things prosecution -- doesn't make it more difficult for the jury? >> well i have to say we

always keep going back to this. is the prosecution's burden all the time, they're going to have to prove this case. so i can say when i was in there in a courtroom earlier today to renew the defense argument, living very clear intractable this down because they know this has been confusing for the jury. had a couple of slides that took you on very simple steps. here are the invoices, they came from michael cohen, they said what it was for, that went through the accounting department, that had vultures, that came schmidt for saying president reagan was never connected to any of this. michael cohen is the only connection so you have to decide whether you believe it or not. i do think has to be some confusion among the view -- jurors but remember there are two attorneys -- and it will definitely get the rest of them. >> trace: shannon bream, thank you so much. carrier man, thank you. there is a story on tuesday may 29th -- may 20th 2024. ass you back here fox news at night, and a plaque on the west. here is "your world." >> ♪ ♪ >> charles: posing arguments arto