so. i don't think they were later unless they thought they were close to making a decision. it took a lot of time to turn around that testimony they asked for yesterday afternoon. so if the court has these kinds of lags, this could really take a long time unless the portion they wanted to hear about now is the only crux of the disagreement in the jury room. we don't know. it is back to waiting. >> bill: all right. you got it. shannon, thank you so much. good point at the end there. is this the one thing they're hung up on or do they have a laundry list of things? we don't know. >> dana: you read from notes that four of the jurors in the back of the jury box, women, were all nodding along as the judge was reminding them the burden of proof is on the prosecution and that they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. who knows what that means? they were nodding along. >> bill: one woman looking down. she might be taking notes. >> dana: lots more to come. harris faulkner will take you through. here see is.

>> harris: we're awaiting the verdict. historic times with a former u.s. president, donald trump, on trial in new york and after deliberating for more than four hours the jury spent last night at home. they returned about 90 minutes ago and at their request the judge is rereading part of his instructions to the jurors again they wanted it. yesterday the jury also wanted to hear again sections of prosecution witness testimony from former publisher david pecker and donald trump's ex attorney michael cohen. earlier today the jury sent a note specifically requesting those jury instructions how to weigh evidence in the case. i'm harris faulkner and you are in "the faulkner focus." seven men, five women considering 34 felony counts against trump. prosecutors claim the former president falsified business records to hide potentially embarrassing stories during his 2016 presidential campaign. trump's defense team argued

manhattan district attorney bragg's office has failed miserably to prove their case. many legal experts agree with that. the former president with this today before he headed into the courtroom. >> i would like to answer all of your questions, they are very easy questions to answer but i am gagged and can't talk as much as i would like to about this ridiculous case that is hurting our country so badly. he is a conflicted judge, everybody knows that. i can't talk about the conflict because of the gag order he put on me. i want to say this is a very sad day for america. the whole world is watching and a very sad day for new york. i've gone through two of these trials already. >> harris: eric shawn gets us started as he has. verdict watch, day two. eric. >> hello. the jury is trying to determine exactly what did donald trump exactly do? they are hearing testimony read

back this morning that supposedly shows what trump told them about this illegal scheme. the day started this morning with the judge reading back some of the jury instructions he gave yesterday. instructions that include how to consider if a witness lied or made inconsistent statements. the jurors perhaps seeking how to consider the testimony of admitted liar and convicted felon star witness michael cohen. right now they are in court hearing what pecker and michael cohen said trump told them to do as they started to hash out this alleged plan. it was august of 2015. two months after trump launched his white house bid both pecker and cohen testified they went to trump tower to meet with trump and at that meeting they said trump told them to work together on the secret plan to protect his campaign. cohen took the stand on may 13 testifying it was trump who set it up. he said that telling the jury that trump said to him and

pecker at that meeting, the two of you should work together and anything negative that comes let michael know and we'll handle it. pecker testified three weeks earlier took the stand on april 22nd. what he told the jury appears to corroborate cohen. pecker said quote, at that meeting donald trump and michael, they asked me what i could do and what my magazines could do to help the campaign. the jury just heard pecker's testimony read back about the phone call where trump asked him if he should buy mcdougal's story to bury it. he said he should. pecker put up the money for that and the jurors will help about that later on today. when they read the testimony. one court reporter reads the question, the other reads the answers. the two court reporters had real new york accents so it is a mini theater in a way.

jurors were told are taking notes. especially taking notes during the part of the testimony from david pecker saying that he would be the eyes and ears of the trump campaign so that testimony read back continuing now. what it all means, harris, tea leaves trying to figure it out. we won't know until there is a verdict. >> harris: absolutely. we have great experts along my side to get through some. facts of the case. judge jeanine pirro,, matt whitaker, phil holloway, former assistant district attorney. judge pirro, i will start with you, my friend. talk to me about what happens when you can't take the jury instructions away in the state of new york. i looked at the statute. it has already gone through an appeals process. they aren't going to change it any time soon. they may ask time and time again

to have those instructions reread. you have experienced some of this. >> well, i've read those instructions as a judge to juries. the reason that's done, harris, is to make sure that people don't take those instructions into the jury room and fight among themselves as to what it means or add additional elements or inferences. the judge is the one who charges the jurors regarding what the law is. and i personally don't have any trouble with that. it's the only thing that i've been accustomed to. you don't want people drawing their own conclusions. it is interesting, we have heard some of the jurors were rubbing their heads when the judge was reading about reasonable doubt. i don't think i've ever instructed a jury on reasonable doubt when they haven't come back and said can you read that one again? because reasonable doubt is very simple. it is a doubt for which you have a reason and it is a very difficult thing for people to try to apply to the facts of the

case. but they do. >> harris: so in the instance of where you come back and have specificity about those instructions like the application of the law to evidence, which is apparently a question they have. what does that mean to you? >> well, the problem with that -- i've got to go to this before -- is the fact the defense was not allowed to argue how the facts fit into the law or how their facts don't fit into the law. so the defense was in a position where they weren't able to even talk about that to the jury. so now the jury is trying to piece things together and, you know, they have no help with regard to that because the defense was not allowed to fully defend their case. >> harris: is that fair? >> it clearly is not fair. you know, none of this is fair. this whole trial is a make believe trial in the sense that these are crimes we've never heard of based upon dead

misdemeanors, based upon felonies that are federal crimes, that are roped into it for which you don't need a unanimous verdict. and the whole thing is just -- it's smoke and mirrors. he must have done something wrong here so it will be a very difficult task for the jury to try to figure this out. and the defense wasn't even pursuant to the fifth amendment advised what that original crime was that bootstraps this and makes it into a felony. in addition to the fact they don't have to be unanimous about column a, b, or c that involve federal tax crimes and federal election campaign violations. finally, harris, there was no reason to identify michael cohen as having been convicted of a federal campaign violation. the judge says it is basically because, you know, it goes to his credibility. we already know he is a liar. you didn't need that. >> harris: right, yeah. then he had to clarify that you can't, you know, inject that

into a case just because one man is being held to account on co-conspiracy then you have to look at the other one differently. i mean, all of it seems like a redo but i know we'll call it a clarification, i guess, because that's the way he interprets the law. matt whitaker something that the judge just said put a button on it for me. dead misdemeanor more than they expired and now they have more life and have become felonies but it also means other people have passed on it. the judge is exactly right. this case has oxygen because alvin bragg, the d.a. of man mat an, decided to give it oxygen. >> when others passed. the southern district of north korea. alvin bragg's predecessor. these were crimes that had passed the statute of limitations for years and only because an extra covid year on the felony statute of

limitations it was extended to six years for felonies were they able to get this under the wire. i think it's obvious to a lot of folks this was brought for pure political pain for president trump. brought by democrats who don't like him very much and want to have something to hang over him. now the biden white house is playing along. they are sending their surrogates to new york to have a press conference. i don't think it went well but they are using this to message. >> harris: well, and part of that, i would say from a political sense is because you have to go where the limelight and cameras are. they are not on joe biden. when you watched the press conference the robert de niro, it happened during this aisle. you flipped around the dial to some of the other networks and they weren't carrying it. they were liberal networks. maybe they didn't want that on air. i don't know what the situation was. phil holloway, in terms of the timing of this. everybody from the uber driver

this morning is asking when do you think the verdict will come? ? we don't know. >> we don't know. just because we have experience, that experience tells me that we just are going to have to wait. it is kind of like reading tea leaves trying to figure out what a jury is doing when they are asking questions. it may be that one juror has one small question or it may mean they are completely divided back in that jury room. it is not surprising because what we've seen particularly with respect to these jury instructions, we've seen, harris, the judge merchan take the place, if you will, of the district attorney and grand jury. he is grafting into this case these three so-called other crimes. he is giving the jury the option of picking amongst themselves from this menu of options. these -- this is an essential element of the crimes charged. the jury is supposed to be unanimous as to each and every element of the crime. the judge is charging them with

offenses that the grand jury has not presented in this case. it does violate the first amendment. donald trump and his team were never on notice of this. this is void from the very beginning and wrong and like legal fantasy land here. >> harris: i wanted to know what kind of notice had been given. if there wasn't any and -- judge, just quickly, you have to go but we're so glad you are with us. >> can i just say one thing? it is unheard of in new york state in any criminal case that a defendant can be indicted on a crime and not know what that crime is. it is a violation of the fifth amendment. it wasn't in the indictment. the bill of materials, opening statements. so the defendant could not defend himself against these make believe crimes over which new york state has no jurisdiction. the whole thing is like a smoke and mirrors show. donald trump is a bad person, he must be guilty of something. by the way you don't have to be unanimous on what that something

may be. this case is riddled with reversible error, harris. >> harris: all that comes on appeal and by then november may have passed and isn't that the point politically for democrats? judge jeanine, great to have you for this part of our hour. very grateful. matt and phil, you will be with me for the hour. thank you for that. we'll take a quick break. jury deliberations are continuing. you can see on the right box on your screen it is almost six hours they've been doing this if you count the four plus hours yesterday and the couple they've been at it this morning. keep you updated with the latest from the courthouse as we await the verdict in this case. plus democrats are reportedly in an all-out panic over president biden's struggles with black voters. well, he keeps making it worse. perhaps he should not talk about people of color. ge companies,... ...our bottles might still look the same... ...but they can be remade in a whole new way. thanks to you... we're getting bottles back...

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>> harris: breaking news catching you up on what we have just learned while we were all in a commercial break. they were listening to a reread of the michael cohen testimony in the historic trial of new york versus donald trump. and now they have stopped that and are going to resume deliberations. we'll watch a little activity as people exit the courtroom and kind of, you know, get into place to resume those deliberations and we'll bring you up to speed if they have anymore questions. when they do they go back into court and the former president has to be there for those questions and answers. so we might not see him very much unless they decide to take a break at some point today. they broke yesterday for lunch. we'll see if that happens today. we're all over it. the right box on your screen has the latest minute-by-minute quick check and we'll be doing

analysis live here. president biden's campaign is now considering how do you handle the verdict in a former president's trial? and particularly the president's opposition in the election? biden versus trump, how do you handle that verdict? well, it is being reported the campaign will not change course with biden and the president will stay quiet, in fact, even if trump is found guilty. now, why do i say that with such inflection? since earlier this week, "politico" had been reporting he was going to make a speech after trump's trial once the verdict is in with a speech at a white house setting, which they said from the white house would seem above politics. less about politics. who thinks that's the case? reuters is reporting that's not going to happen. we'll cover it and see what happens. a new piece argues any remarks biden would make on the case would be political. the president in a rally

yesterday went hard after his gop rival. >> president biden: i'll be -- i'm not going to let trump turn into a place where -- i'll damned if i will let him -- >> harris: he looks so angry. tough talk aside, democrats are reportedly overwhelmed with anxiety. here is a column arguing rank and file democrats have told pollsters for months they want someone other than biden. anybody but biden. but now top party strategists have broken into the open to voice misgivings even alarm. they know equally that it is too late to replace biden. if democrats had been in

unseesing ferment for the past two years maybe biden would have bowed out like lbj but he has been basking in delusional set abetted by party aides telling the line. that's a quote from "the washington examiner." ari fleischer is with me. that is a very specific and to the point take on this whole thing. your reaction, ari. >> well, all of this just points to how deep a problem joe biden is in. harris, it really reminds me of the 1992 george h.w. bush campaign to shore up his base and never did. he began his campaign and ended his campaign appealing to the christian coalition and traditional right wing groups that should have been in his camp and he never got to the ticket splitters and bill clinton won. joe biden is doing the same thing. he has to go to black groups, the heart of the democrat party, to try to get them back into his

column. hispanic groups, democrat base. that's his entire campaign. and it didn't work for george h.w. bush and a sign of how much trouble an incumbent is in when they begin their campaign trying to reassembly the base and put it back together again. >> harris: the base is part people of color, the other part of the base is the young people they have lost. he is not talking to their needs and what they are going through right now. also just culturally where they are. they hold signs some of them that say genocide joe over the war in israel against the hamas terrorists. so it is a tough spot for him. president biden lashed out at a reporter who asked this. >> president biden, will you be serving your full four year term or handing over power to vice president harris?

all four years or handing over? i can't hear you. can you approach? [inaudible] >> harris: is that a joke? >> on this one i can't blame joe biden. when a reporter asks you a question like that what are you supposed to say? and so he just tried to dismiss it all. it is a question that -- a legitimate question. to any president asked a question like that you always want to smack a reporter who asks something like that. >> harris: i don't know about that, ari. if you really want to support your own ticket and you believe in the person who by the way has lower polling than he does. i could see why he wouldn't believe in her. say you do and you would hope a president who he picked, a vice president he would then wouldn't you shore that person up in that

moment and say to that reporter heck, yeah, she is with me. i'm with her. we're doing this together, four more years. like a post-it note and writes itself. >> well, the point about harris, if he answers the question, then he sparks a whole new wave of stories about harris is in, biden reaffirms support for harris or he commits to four years. it is just a story line that you just want to kill. you don't want it to go anywhere. that's why politically speaking the right thing for biden to do is to dismiss it and therefore there isn't a story since he didn't say anything and create more news. >> harris: you are a press secretary. that's all that experience coming forth. who knows if he would last four years? you are keeping him away from the curb. you are great at that. new report says several top black democrats are now alarmed. reportedly behind is scenes over biden's shrinking among that

voting block. one cnn reporter says it is more than just a minor problem. >> it is a huge alarm. it is spiraling and police sirens and any alarm you can think of is what's going on off the democratic side. these numbers could be deadly to joe biden's campaign. >> harris: president biden along with his vice president spoke at a majority blackboarding school yesterday trying to claw back support and biden attacked former president trump again and again and again. >> president bidenthreat that trump poses is greater in the second term than his first. what do you think would happen if black americans had stormed the capitol the same guy who wanted to tear gas you as you peacefully protested george floyd's murder. he is that guy who won't say black lives matter and invokes neo-nazi terms. he is pedaling lies and stereotypes. >> harris: there is nothing

positive for the nation in that. just how much he hates his opponent. >> it is worse than that. he said republicans want to put you all back in chains to an african-american group. this is the card joe biden plays every time. it is vile. it is part of what divides america. when he talks about stereotypes he is the one engaging in the stereotypes against donald trump. the black vote in 2024 will be one of the most fascinating stories out there. in 2008 when john mccain ran against barack obama he got 4% of the black vote. when mitt romney ran he got 6%. donald trump got 12% of the black vote according to exit polls in 2024. he tripled mccain, doubled mitt romney. that's why joe biden fears him so much and i think the numbers

will go higher. the erosion of democrats in african-americans and hispanics is real. trump is running with economic ideas to get support. >> harris: south bronx that has a highest level of poverty in the nation, unbelievable. now he is rather captive in new york right now but what an opportunity that he has to reach out to those communities who feel like they are not being heard right now. i don't -- you have to take a positive message. we're not a block, all people of color. we are voters who can vote independently. you and i have talked about that. it is a really stale way that democrats look at it. the jury in this historic trial with donald trump versus new york is deliberating once again. they had come out of the courtroom -- gone into the courtroom to get questions answered and instructions reread

and back deliberating. the latest from our attorneys outside the courthouse coming up. hunter biden's gun trial is set to begin on monday. and the biden family dirty laundry will likely be on full display during the heart of the campaign for joe biden. stay close. ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, but i manage it well ♪ ♪ jardiance! ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance ♪ ♪ at each day's start! ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to see ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c! ♪ jardiance works twenty-four seven in your body to flush out some sugar. and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. serious side effects may include ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection ketoacidosis,

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so call now for free information. >> harris: the son of the president of the united states goes on trial on monday for federal gun charges. a delaware judge has rejected hunter biden's attempt to stop the case from going forward. president biden's son has pleaded not guilty to three charges. they include making false statements on a federal form when purchasing a gun and unlawful possession of a firearm. hunter biden faces a maximum sentence of 25 years in prison if he is convicted. during the trial, we could hear a lot about the first family's

very personal business. on sunday night the president went to his daughter-in-law, hallie's home. she is beau biden's widow who then dated his brother, hunter, after beau passed away nine years ago. hallie is expected to testify in hunter biden's case. peter doocy is live for us outside the white house with the latest. >> hunter biden once again tried and failed to get this gun case thrown out. this time his very expensive lawyers were arguing on second amendment grounds. the judge disagreed so they are going to start these proceedings in delaware on monday. the reason that a lot of court watchers think this could be very personal for the biden family is because some of the witnesses they're signaling appear to be hunter's -- testify for the state against hunter biden will be hunter's ex-wife and hunter's ex-girlfriend, hallie biden along with a third woman. >> hallie biden is a key government witness who allegedly

disposed of a gun that hunter is accused of buying illegally. president biden was at her house this weekend. >> i think the american people should also be told the full breadth of this. he visited her days before the anniversary of the passing of his son. >> they did not talk about her testimony? >> this was not about that. >> biden campaign officials are saying they had the hastily organized press conference in new york because that's where all the camera are. if they are looking for cameras they would have to go far to find a press corps in delaware down the street from their campaign headquarters when this trial starts on monday for hunter. harris. >> harris: so you could say if it were going to be about politics you might see trump supporters showing up there. i don't know if the lawmakers would show up like democrats showed up outside the courthouse that trump is in. >> if they don't think that the media is paying attention to the

right things and they want to go and get the word out, we'll have a camera there all week next week. they can just -- it is very short walk and they can get lunch on the way back. >> harris: peter doocy, we appreciate it. for more on this i want to go to trey gowdy, former south carolina congressman and shannon bream, chief legal correspondent and anchor of "fox news sunday." a busy weeks. i want to get your top line thoughts on deliberations in day two. >> on the trump case, it is impossible to tell what the jury is thinking and you will drive yourself mad. i've done it in the past, if you wondering why i lost my mind, it was waiting on judges to answer jury questions for the first -- last 20 years of my life. you cannot -- it could be one juror, all 12. i mean i went and reread this testimony last night.

there is something good for the prosecution and defense in these excerpts from the transcript. anyone who tells you what this means, don't believe them. they don't know. >> harris: all right, i will jump back to hunter biden. i wanted to bring everybody up to speed minute-by-minute. we needed a touch of that you from, trey gowdy. shannon bream, in the beginning of june, before the first debate, joe biden's son goes on trial. >> he does. they have to remember, too, there is that second trial that got pushed to september and the thinking on his legal team was we don't want two huge trials back-to-back. there could have been overlap there. judges don't want that to happen, either. when you push the trial to september, that means as we start to get into early voting we have another hunter biden trial. so as this white house we're hearing the campaign is considering what kind of language they will use if there is a conviction for president trump here in new york.

will they say convicted felon donald trump. they'll have to figure how the language would be used for hunter if he is convicted before the election, too. >> harris: trey gowdy something else was going through my mind. if you make the argument that hunter's trial are too close to a presidential election and look at the family members who could be talking, the ex-wife, ex-girlfriend, a third woman against hunter in the first trial. we don't know about the second. if you could make the argument after the election that might have to be made for donald trump as well. it gets complicated politically for biden. >> i think here is the other complication, harris. do you remember those 50 so-called intelligence experts who said the hunter biden laptop -- guess what the number one piece of evidence for the united states of america, the department of justice is? hunter biden's laptop. what they once said was russian

disinformation is exhibit a in the prosecution of hunter biden. i don't think -- i was a gun prosecutor. we never prosecuted addicts for lying and buying on federal forms. so i don't think hunter biden ought to be singled out, either. go after him on taxes, go after him on corruption. but i would be curious how many people were prosecuted for being an addict in possession of a firearm. i bet it is less than ten in the last 12 months. i don't think people ought to be singled out because of their last name. treat them like you would hunter smith even though it's hunter biden. >> harris: but isn't the whole process of that shannon, come down to lying on a federal form when you are buying a weapon? i don't know so much that it matters about your mental or physical status as much as it matters that you lied.

>> like trey is saying it's something on the books but doesn't get prosecuted a lot. the thing we always have a conversation when something tragic happens and we begin the conversation about more gun laws. you will hear prosecutors tell you all over the place there are plenty of things on the books that don't get fully utilized for prosecution. that's part of it. we're waiting on a case from the supreme court. a couple of gun cases. one of them could impact cases like hunter biden's and so we wait for that. we'll get more opinions next week. his legal team is waiting for that case, too. may be beneficial to them depending on the ruling. >> harris: how could it affect hunter biden's gun case? >> it is a case that looks at whether or not states can prevent people under domestic violence order, whether or not they can lose the ability to have a gun. it gets to the question about what addicts and others? that may be part of what his team argues that the second amendment goes beyond some of these other conditions that people may be dealing with in

their lives. >> harris: just educating everybody. people are looking and saying now we'll watch for the supreme court vote on that to see how it impacts the lesser-used charge that trey talked about. there is so much other food on the plate against hunter biden there will be other cases and we'll cover all of it. thank you, both. appreciate your time and expertise. minute-by-minute updates from the new york city courthouse where the jury is in day two of deliberations plus samuel alito has responded to his critics on the left. you know some democrats want him to recuse himself from a pair of january 6th cases. justice alito says no.

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>> harris: we're awaiting a veer tepidity in the new york trial of former president donald trump. the judge in the case has come under fire from critics who say he has been corrupt and biased and those are actually former president trump's words early on as well. here he have is again. >> nobody knows what the crime is. there is no crime. nobody knows what the crime is? the d.a. didn't name the crime. they don't know what the crime is. that's what the problem is. it's a disgrace.

this thing ought to be ended immediately. the judge ought to end it and save his reputation. >> harris: jonathan hunt on what may lay ahead. >> the sentencing possibilities for the former president range from essentially nothing, no penalties at all, to spending what would amount to the rest of his life behind bars. a sentence that could begin at new york's ryker's island prison. realistically neither of those extreme options seems likely. a complete discharge would be unusual after a felony conviction as would any lengthy prison term given that trump has no prior criminal record and that the crime in question here is a non-violent one. but judge juan merchan could impose a relatively short prison sentence of a matter of months or a split sentence including some time behind bars and three or more years of probation or three years of conditional discharge. probation is also a possibility as a stand alone sentence as is

that conditional discharge. probation would involve regular checkins with new york city's probation department and whatever other conditions the judge chooses. those could, for instance, include travel restrictions which would clearly have an impact on trump's ability to campaign. if judge merchan decided the sup vice re nature of probation isn't necessary he could set a conditional discharge which would require the former president to complete whatever conditions the judge orders over a three-year period. so if there is a guilty verdict, there will be a huge amount of pressure on judge merchan, who will have wide leeway in deciding trump's sentence. also worth noting that any sentence the judge chooses might end up being stayed until after the inevitable appeal of a conviction and, of course, everything i just said, harris, depends on the jury delivering a guilty verdict in the first place. harris. >> harris: all right. of course we don't know what the

verdict would be. so thank you very much, jonathan. i want to show you something. i've been sharing pieces of this from an exclusive interview that i did with then president donald trump right the next day after michael cohen was sentenced, convicted liar sentenced back years ago. the trial with michael cohen at the heart. >> michael cohen pled guilty to something that's not even a crime. nobody except for me would be looked at like this. nobody. >> harris: he was your attorney. three years he was sentenced yesterday and it may seem like he got a break because it could have been twice as much but still three years in federal prison and $5 hundred thousand in restitution. he recorded you and a liar and in your inner circle.

>> it happens. you would see him on television, he was okay on television. years ago, many years, 12, 13 years ago he did me a favor. he was on a committee and he was so responsive and so good. >> harris: that was the favor? people have been asking what is the favor he did the president? he was on a committee with you. >> he was on a condo committee several years ago. trump world tower. i thought he was a great guy. >> harris: matt whitaker and phil holloway and ari fleischer. as we see what that convicted liar did at the heart of the case. ari, your thoughts. >> well, we'll find out pretty soon, aren't we? that's what it will all come down to. i happen to think there is nothing but an upside for donald trump. if he is convicted i think most people are going to dismiss it or already built into what they expect of donald trump. if he is a hung jury or

acquitted, it will boost him like a rocket ship. why the democrats thought it would help them. it has actually only helped donald trump. one other thing. i have been texting with somebody close to donald trump. one of his lawyers. i said what is the president's mood now? he is very cool. cool and he feels very good about what the outcome will be. they also stressed to me this lawyer did that when it comes to the substance of the case and the pecker testimony, i want you to listen to this. they said quote, here is what pecker said and the jurors asked for this. donald trump said to me, pecker said, he doesn't have to buy stories because it always gets out. the point this lawyer is making to me is michael cohen acted on his own and the jury will realize that. trump said i don't pay for these stories. how did it happen? cohen did it on his own. that's an interesting point one of his lawyers is making to me.

>> harris: matt, your thought on that. >> i think that's a very important point. one of the things that jurors want when they have testimony read back is there is typically a disagreement in the jury room as to what they remember someone saying. so i think ari's point that mr. pecker said mr. trump never bought stories because they always got out is an important fact. the other thing is this judge has clearly violated federal law in his instructions and frustrating to me knowing two other cases that hold that you have to be unanimous in all of the elements of a crime. he has given them this chinese menu for this conspiracy to choose their adventure and crime. i just think it so offensive to the rule of law to me it suggests that this judge is putting his thumb dramatically on the scale. >> harris: i want to go deeper

on that point, phil. four can go one way, three options, four can go another, four another. do they have to be the same for people that go for each of the charges? how does it break down? >> we're so far out in fantasy land with this type of jury charge. the other crime is an essential element of the offense the grarnd jury didn't name the charge. the judge stepped in the place of the grand jury. i think they could be four, four, four, six, six, any combination that adds up to 12 as long as the 12 believe one of these menu items applies to this case. but this jury charge is just one of the reasons why it is important to understand how much power judges and prosecutors have and how they wield it and american citizens would be well served to be very cautious in whom they vest that power. if you have one rogue judge like i believe this one is, that

personal can weaponize a trial and turn it on its head in a way to influence an election and basically target an american citizen. >> harris: quickly, so one more. if it's a hung jury, can you get that with a 4-4-four, 6-six. if one person goes against it but when you have the categories of charges and different numbers of people how does that work? >> i think it still can be hung. i don't know how it works. we are are in uncharted territory here. but i do think that the judge has intentionally made it easier for this jury to avoid a hung jury. >> harris: that's fascinating. you wonder if they know what it would look like once they start to vote in that jury room. fascinating. gentlemen, great to have all three of you this hour. appreciate your expertise and time. "outnumbered" after the break. strategy, a product, where your retirement money and investment portfolio could go up with the stock market lock in your gains?

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