videos. >> bill: thanks for the tip. nice to meet you today. >> thank you, nice meeting you guys. >> bill: you get so empowered when you can do it on your own. lexi knows that. thank you. breaking news right now on the jury deliberations. we have new court sketches, dana. these are the breaking details from wilmington, delaware. they were a little faster on the trigger during the trump trial but nonetheless this is what jurors -- how an artist sees the jurors walking into the deliberation room as you see in the previous sketch. off we go. >> dana: we are likely to get the verdict today. harris faulkner will take you through the next hour. she might get the verdict. see you on "the five." here she is. >> harris: day seven and the jury could reach a verdict at any moment in hunter biden's federal gun trial and the jury could decide on those charges that the first son lied on

federal forms and owned a gun for 11 days while he was abusing illegal drugs. or they could not decide that. we'll find out. i'm harris faulkner and you are in "the faulkner focus." hunter biden arrived for what very well could be his last day before the jury reaches that verdict and he later left the courthouse. he had gone in and then he left because the judge sent the jurors back into deliberations. unlike we saw with former president trump in new york, hunter biden doesn't have to stay in the courtroom for questions or anything going on with the jury. so he can leave. he have has to be able to return on a moment's notice, though. both sides, both prosecution and defense gave their closing arguments yesterday. this has moved at a fast clip. the prosecution quoted president biden himself during the final messaging, no one is above the law. the huge amount of hunter's family members in the courtroom served as a striking visual.

government lawyer weiss pointed to the long row of bidens and told the jury, quote, the people sitting in the gallery are not evidence. so for all their tears and struggle and everything that jurors may have seen, he is saying set that aside and you have to look at the evidence in the case. there are big questions over the influence that the long history of the family's political power could have in this case. fox news legal editor kerri urbahn says this. >> you have to remember this is a small town, small state kind of feel. of course it is going to move you in some way. they are several feet away. that's a gutsy move and hard for anyone to deal with looking directly at family members saying what they're doing doesn't matter. it is evidence. they went on to present what feels like overwhelming evidence of hunter biden's drug use before, during and after the time he purchased the gun. >> harris: the best legal experts in the business are standing by.

former federal prosecutor andrew cherkasky and attorney leo terrell. let's go to rich edson first outside the courthouse and we can hear a whole lot of something going on behind you in wilmington, delaware. >> television cameras attract all sorts of people. people running out of the courthouse now and figure out what's that about. the jury has only been at this for an hour this morning. an hour and ten minutes yesterday. that they deliberated. 9:06 this morning judge noreika, we'll figure that out in a second. the judge brought the jury in at 9:06 this morning and asked if they had seen or read anything on social media about the case. done any research. they shook their heads no and began deliberations again. hunter arrived at 8:55 this morning and departed at 9:21 this morning. he doesn't have to be here for

these deliberations. once the jury reaches a verdict they will get word of it to him and he will have 15 minutes or a half hour to come back to the courthouse to read it to him. the jury may ask the judge to have certain things read back to them and some of the prosecution witnesses or whatever read back to them and that may happen as well. now the prosecution closed yesterday saying there is overwhelming evidence that in october 2018 hunter was a drug user, lied about it on a federal form to buy a gun and illegally possessed the weapon a few days. he dealt with drug addiction from 2015 to 2019 but lowell says he was not a drug user when he bought and owned the firearm. we'll see what the buzz is and we'll get back to you for a read on that. jury is deliberating trying to figure out hunter''s case.

>> bill: leo terrell and attorney cherkasky. i'll start with the length of deliberations so far. we had a few hours on monday, a few hours on next and day seven. leo, what do you make of it? the case went by so quickly. >> the general rule-in-law, harris, in a trial that one week of trial testimony, one day of jury deliberation. we're still within that one day. this is a very straight forward case. i would expect a ruling sometime today. we haven't had any jury questions, so i think this case is very, very straight and arrow in the face of what's going on. one other point, harris. we should give the judge in this case a very special round of applause on the rule of law. on your show you asked me whether or not that plea deal could be stopped and i said the judge could stop it. we're here because of that judge and what you saw in that graphic of all those bidens back there.

that is political pressure. i've said it over and over again. this is a political trial. you are witnessing it with the biden family in there basically trying to signal to the jury hey, don't convict my son. we're part of the biden family. that's wrong. >> harris: reports of the first lady putting her arm around people. there were tears. jill biden was taking notes for much of this trial when she was there. six of the seven days so far. leo, i had forgotten you and i were actually together on the air when that appeal was blocked of that sweetheart deal with hunter biden and as leo points out that's why we're here today because it happened. >> you asked me could the plea deal be stopped and i said yes, the judge could stop it. the american public, the rule of law owes that judge a big favor. this case should have gone to trial or a proper plea deal. >> harris: i will cut in.

the verdict has been reached. the verdict in hunter biden's federal gun trial has been reached. this is breaking news now as we've been watching. remember, moments ago during the live shot with rich edson it got loud out there and rich said oh, you know, i'll find out what that's all about. cameras are out and you just saw hunter biden and his wife melissa walk into the federal courthouse in wilmington, delaware. this was really, andrew, a little less than a day if you add up all the hours. >> this is a pretty quick verdict and what i think the evidence demands in this case. we haven't gotten the verdict yet. i anticipate it will be a guilty verdict. i think that if it weren't a guilty verdict we would have seen it drag on for quite some time. the evidence has been so overwhelming. not only at the time did he know that he was an addict but it had been going on prolifically for months and years before that. he had been to drug rehab.

if you go to drug rehab they tell you once an addict, always an addict. >> harris: he said it to one of the witnesses and she repeated it that he said those words. >> if they had gone a long time -- >> harris: this doesn't indicate to you a mistrial because that was some of the question, too. this happened basically in the biden's backyard. >> for a hung jury they would have to tell the judge they are deadlocked and get sent back always. and so they would get sent back to do it again and this -- so this indicates a unanimous verdict. >> harris: we have a verdict in the hunter biden federal gun trial. if you're tuning in we don't know what the verdict is but it was quick order for hunter biden to return to that courthouse. we've been watching it and there is the scrum of media and potentially some of the people who were shouting, i don't know. it is not the journalists. rich edson would figure that out. best guess would be they saw

hunter biden and his wife coming in during the live shot. i only say all of that because there is so much protesting going on around the country you can't tell anything from anything anymore. can we get into this about the courthouse history? i found this to be really interesting. hunter biden will learn his fate today inside the courthouse in wilmington, delaware. caleb bogs was a republican senator from delaware and competed in 1972 with then 29-year-old joe biden who turned 30 years old just before he won the seat and took it from republican caleb boggs. that's the name of the courthouse, the caleb j. boggs courthouse. you want to talk whether or not there is a visual in all of it that's biden? sure, all the people in the courthouse, many of them have been relatives. on the name, it is somebody else and a republican. i point that out because it's

interesting. that's the president's brother, james biden, going in too. your thoughts. >> i lived in wilmington, delaware for a year and it is biden country there. everybody knows the bidens. they have some story, one or two degrees of connection from them. so it's remarkable this case is being held in delaware. i think that the people there all are very familiar with the biden family. what strikes me is what hunter biden has done to be at the stage he is at right now. he demanded this. he could have taken the plea deal that fell apart. tried to find a new plea deal or outright pled guilty. instead he demanded the trial that dragged his family so deeply through the mud. interesting he is the one that seems to be leading the family on this. his dad who has so much control over him as the president of the united states but what is running the ship here. >> harris: his dad doesn't control him. >> he certainly enabled him for many years, hasn't he?

>> harris: important difference. enabling a man who we know from youtube was doing drugs at a whole lot of points in his life and struggling and leo, i want to come back to you. what does he face if he is found guilty? >> well, he is a first-time offender. i think it will be very, very important. he could face 25 years and $750 thousand fine. that is not going to happen. the question is will he serve jail time? that will be quite interesting. there will be a sentencing report and evaluation and we'll find out later on. the magnitude of this verdict, if it is guilty, which i agree with andrew it should be a guilty verdict because the evidence was overwhelming, that final verdict, that has yet to be written. >> harris: what was the amount of the fine that you said isn't likely to happen? >> $i think the amount that he could be facing is $750,000. i may be wrong. i may be wrong on that number

but i know -- it is a big number. >> harris: andrew, you don't think in this case with no prior criminal adjudications against him, no convictions, what could happen with him? how much of that would they lean on between first offender, the fine, jail time? >> jail time is unlikely for this. the tax -- assuming this is a conviction leading into that trial if he is convicted he would be a two-time convict at that point. so he would certainly be facing jail time by the end of the summer looking at both cases if they are put together and both are actually found with guilty. for this alone, though, the max that the federal sentencing guidelines says is somewhere between six to ten months and that's with him showing some degree of contrition. that doesn't mean the judge has to issue jail time. it could be a suspended sentence. >> harris: i want to go quickly

to kerri urbahn, fox news legal editor on site for us today. talk to me if you will about what plays a role in the verdict. it came back relatively quickly. >> it is possible that joe biden's family and hunter biden's family sitting there to support hunter had an impact on the juror's emotions and why d.o.j. came out strong pointing to the biden family and saying they shouldn't have any effect on this case because the case is about evidence. but harris, what i think about right now is the fact that joe biden is scheduled to speak at a gun control event this afternoon and i was looking over this particular organization's website this morning and one of their top issues is advocating for the very law that is being enforced against hunter biden. so i'm just curious to see what the white house plans to do, whether it's an acquittal or if hunter is found to be guilty what kind of statement they will

put out given the fact that they have made a hallmark of their administration, these very laws that hunter has been accused of breaking. >> harris: that's a terrific question. what will president biden say now that this is going on with the verdict and it has to do with the same -- maybe not completely focused on, but has to do with the same type of case that his son is facing. you can't write that. a novelist couldn't make that up. jonathan turley joining us now. jonathan, just your top line thoughts on where we go from here knowing that there are trials coming up for hunter biden. >> well, first of all as a criminal defense attorney, if a verdict came back like this in this type of case, you would assume it is a conviction. the evidence here was overwhelming, this is relatively quick. if the jury was going to divide,

you would expect a letter to go or note to go out to the court and the court would respond with an allen charge sending the case back saying deliberate some more. so here you have unanimity. the problem is this isn't just any case. it is a biden on trial in wilmington, which is biden town. where the family resides. so bets are off on this case. whether we have a conviction or an acquittal. this is the best jury pool that hunter biden could have possibly pulled. it is the inverse of what trump faced in manhattan. if he is convicted, it would mean he would go into the tax trial in california as a convicted felon. that can hurt you obviously when it comes to sentencing if you have a pattern of criminality. now, los angeles is also a great jury pool for hunter biden. but obviously going into any

federal trial with a recent felony conviction is not a good thing. >> harris: where was former president trump just raising millions of dollars? california. it may not be as friendly as you think. that state is changing because they are taking the brunt now of the cartels pushing people to their state after texas took action on its own. jonathan, i'm glad you are here. i want to hit everybody. judge jeanine pirro, former new york district attorney and co-host of the five. you have a situation with the family in there. any way biden's words two fridays ago no one is above the law as he took jabs at former president trump that trump can't fight back on because he has a gag order still, right? is there any way he potentially will regret those words? did that fire up anybody? >> i don't know if it fired up anybody. this jury didn't need firing up, harris, in the 32 years that i

was a prosecutor, judge and d.a. i have to tell you, a verdict that comes back as quickly as this one -- you know yesterday was about an hour, basically everyone said you are the forman and this is how we'll vote. let's go home and sleep on it. they came in today and made a quick verdict. all indications are that it will be a guilty verdict. i could be wrong because i didn't see the jury. >> harris: leo, i will come back to you and comparing this case, if we can, to other drug cases. i did a deep dive on what former a.g. of california kamala harris, now vice president, was part of. thousands of people arrested, going before the court, and some of them jailed on misdemeanor marijuana and other drug cases who part of the case was addiction. are things changing? >> well, i remember that. you remember tulsi gabbard

annihilated kamala harris bringing up her role as a prosecutor incarcerating individuals. this is a case where a lot of people have been vickty myselfed and sent to prison. >> i'll come right back to you. hunter biden has been found guilty on all counts in his gun trial, federal trial in wilmington, delaware. your first response. >> i go back to the harris faulkner, leo terrell segment six months ago when you asked me that question is there any way that plea deal could be stopped? i said the judge. the judge played a major role in the rule of law by saying i'm not going to agree to this plea deal. had questions and that's why we're here today. the american public needs to know that. that's the rule of law and applaud the judge. she did an outstanding job in following the rule of law. >> harris: what does this look

like? september will be here in a heartbeat. you have the tax fraud trial that's stronger than this. >> hunter wanted this trial. he got it and got a big guilty verdict because what he did over the years. his actions and his words that provided the government the evidence for that. what he i think has done through this is left open the possibility of an appeal. the second amendment issues related to having this kind of drug addiction or use at the time of buying or possessing a gun is not necessarily settled law through the supreme court. i see this going through an appellate channel where they are challenging the underline basis of the law not conduct itself. >> harris: aren't they looking at that now? the supreme court has a lot on its plate. >> various versions. not this exact question before them now. the issue of whether guns and gun possession is more consistent with preventing people who have a mental illness versus people who are on alcohol. alcohol itself typically not something that prohibits gun

possession or ownership but mental illness may be. the supreme court is looking deep into exactly when the second amendment can be essentially revoked from an individual with regard to their mental condition or the substances that they use. >> harris: jonathan turley, i will ask you about what this does overall to the tenure in the united states. this case was very different than how former president trump was treated in a lot of different ways. two different cases but he is still under a gag order. >> well, this was a very fair judge in my view. she ruled for the defense and for the prosecutors on different issues. she went right down the middle of the road and i think in the end justice was done here. this jury was able to overcome annulfication strategy. part of the problem was that abbe lowell, the defense attorney put forward a bunch of

defenses in the opening statement that collapsed within 48 hours. the prosecutors did an extraordinarily good job here. they were focused, they were disciplined, and they methodically took apart each of these defenses in front of the jury. and when you pursue nullification strategy it can go too far sometimes. it can make the jury feel like they are being treated as chumps. here the jury followed instruction and did their duty. >> harris: first lady jill biden walked into the courthouse. took longer for all the family members to reassembly. we knew that once a verdict had been reached, at least he would return and maybe even all of that family. previously we saw joe biden's brother james go in, too. they are getting together p for

the reading of the verdict. >> i'm sure the prosecutors were not happy with having this array of biden family members, very famous figures behind hunter. it reminded this jury that this is biden town. this is wilmington where the bidens reside. it says a lot about the jurors that they overcame that. there was obvious sympathy for the defendant. i had sympathy for the defendant. when you hear his account of his struggle with drugs, you can't be anything but empathetic. there was also an unavoidable series of criminal acts in all of this. by saying things like he might not have checked the box or he had a moment of sobriety or maybe just using alcohol might have insulted some of the jurors. the way lowell made it sound is that the question meant are you doing drugs while you are purchasing this weapon.

he narrowed it so much. right. >> harris: what the witnesses told right down to ex girlfriend, down to the widow of his brother beau is how extensive the drug use was around the time he got the gun and she knew how bad it was. she knew how bad it was and that's who searched the truck and came up with the gun. the justice correspondent david spunt was inside the courtroom minutes ago. david, give us a playback, if you will, of what it was like to be there. >> quite an extraordinary moment when the son of the sitting president of the united states was found guilty. it happened very quickly. hunter biden showed no emotion. he remained tense. he was looking still. he patted abbe lowell on the back as if to thank him even if it didn't go their way. noticeable, the first lady was not in the courtroom when the

verdict was read and hastely just walked in with aides a few moments into the courthouse to be with her son. she was not even in the room when the verdict was read. valerie biden owens, the president's sister was also not in the room. she was in the hallway. the verdict was read and rushed in after to be close to hunter and hunter looked back and looked at family very briefly. but clearly a tense moment in the scene. i don't think members of his team expected the verdict to come this quick. they expected it to come a lot later. as far as sentencing is concerned. the judge said that typically that's about 120 days after so you do the math there. that puts us later into the summer and questions when that will be. president biden himself said in an interview he would rule out pardoning his son but we have to see how that plays out as we get down the line. as far as hearing from hunter biden today, i was told that had

this gone in hunter biden's favor, we may have heard from him at the microphones. but unlikely we'll hear anything from him. perhaps we may hear something from his attorney abbe lowell. i want to note quickly special counsel david weiss was not in the courtroom as well. a lot of people were not prepared for this. the first lady wasn't here. she has been here pretty much every day of the trial except one to support hunter and special counsel himself was not here in the courtroom. >> harris: i'm glad we have those details. i don't know if some were gathered for the reading of the verdict. this judge got right to it. i want to bring in now and thank you very much, david. we'll check back in and out. news is still happening outside the courthouse. they haven't left yet. andy mccarthy, welcome to the focus. 120 days to sentencing.

what needs to happen next if they have to appeal and a tax fraud trial before the election. >> you can't desegregate the politics from the legal either on the republican side or the democratic side apparently. the tax case is supposed to happen on september 5th. i imagine there will be frantic efforts to get it put off until after the election. so far those efforts to delay things have been unsuccessful. the only thing i think that might do, harris, it might hasten judge noreika in trying to impose the sentence before that case happens because once the trial starts, it would be probably prejudicial and very difficult to interrupt that so he could be sentenced. i imagine he will either be sentenceed before then or put it off until after that trial is over. but that trial is really bad for

the white house. that is the trial in which joe biden is implicated because these are the taxes that hunter evaded while he was peddling his father's political influence. so that's really going to be very tough. >> harris: the president of the united states? >> he could be called to testify. it seems to me that's highly unlikely. the government won't call him. in fact, i think the special counsel so-called his main jobs seems to have been to insulate joe biden from hunter's wrongdoing to the point that even though i think joe biden is a central figure in the ginning up of the revenue the case is about the prosecutor kept his name out of the indictment. the parading of this evidence, which joe biden is simply an

unavoidable part of in the weeks leading up to the election can't be good. >> harris: judge pirro is also with us. i'm curious how this gets handled politically. you look at both. we talk about this often. how do you, with a gun control event later today with president biden, how do you deal with this conviction of his son on a gun trial? >> knowing joe biden i would suspect there will be very little, if anything, said. anything that they say will be deemed to be hypocritical in terms of what this administration stands for in terms of increasing penalties for offering a false statement in support of a gun application, and you know, come entading on this case is not going to do joe biden any good other than looking for sympathy. i want to say one thing that's very important. that is that the fact that jill

biden wasn't there, the fact that not everyone was aware the verdict was coming back really tells me that they were kind of, you know, thinking that maybe this show of force in terms of the biden family being front row staring down the jury would intimidate the jury. anyone who understands the criminal law, most of the people that you've been talking to in the last few minutes, knows that this case was an open and shut case. and i think that they are even leaving recognizing the significance of this is indicative of the fact they thought maybe we'll get away with it. we have time. no, this jury and judge were not going to waste any time. the judge didn't even say should we wait for anybody. this is a no nonsense judge who took this case. show america how a case worked and moved it from opening statement to verdict. >> harris: i want to get something to you just mentioned. penalties in this case. with all of your experience on the bench and i realize it's a

different state. you were new york, this is delaware. what likely will happen with somebody who doesn't have a prior? >> usually when someone doesn't have a prior it's a non-violent crime, you know, there is a lot of consideration given to the defendant. however, the fact that this defendant didn't plead guilty and indicate that he was remorseful is something that allows a federal judge in terms of the sentencing guidelines to take that into consideration. so, you know, had he pled guilty he probably would, you know, there would be no question about jail time. now maybe they can give him a few months or whatever it might be. that's now totally up to the judge. but he is not in the best position given the fact that he took this case, which was a straightforward case the trial and started arguing crazy stuff like alcohol. no cocaine on the counter when he applied for the permit. >> harris: there is on youtube.

there is cocaine on some furniture there. okay. judge, i'm so glad. you always give us the jumping off point. i welcome back trey gowdy, former south carolina congressman and host of sunday night in america here on fox news channel. he didn't plead guilty and didn't express remorse is what judge jeanine pirro just said. you have seen juries your whole career. why does that play a role? >> it plays a role in federal cases. president trump was prosecuted in state court. this is a different universe. this is federal court. we have guidelines and you get credit for what we call acceptance of responsibility. it's really not remorse. i guess maybe that's a synonym but it's acceptance of responsibility. guidelines. no criminal history and you get a reduction based on certain factors including whether or not you pled guilty and accepted

responsibility. you don't get punished for going to trial. you just don't get the reward for accepting responsibility. having said that, the guidelines are all advisory, harris, no longer mandatory. this judge can do whatever she wants to do. >> harris: in moving forward, we saw hunter biden really thirsty for a trial. i want to go to leo terrell now. that whole stunt on capitol hill where he shows up to a hearing. then we learned he was making some kind of documentary. i wonder if this will go in there. politics has always been part of this. >> yes, harris. you know what? he never faced justice before. he has been shielded, protected. you talk about the stunt on capitol hill. his defiance. this case was so overwhelming. how often do you have a case, my colleagues can tell you this, where you are convicted with your own words and have family members forced to tell the truth? objective individuals and a jury

doing the right thing. hunter biden is now in reality. he now has to face the music like every other american because the biden family, the proximity of the case where it was located did not protect him, did not save him. he will have to face the music. it is good for justice. i'm a big opponent, supporter of legal rule of law. that's what happened today, harris. >> harris: andrew, if you can talk to me about what happens next with hunter biden just today? so what does his life look like? are they going through strategy for appeal? what happens >> this is the tip of the iceberg for him. he will sit down with his attorneys. they will talk about what happens next. i think they change their focus almost immediately to that september tax trial. that is going to be the next big ticket for him. that is going to be so much bigger than this. remember, we were talking about october of 2018 in this trial

and how much they were able to bring in. now we'll be talking about years and years in the mid 2,000 and teens all that was going on. the family is likely and sure to see so much more in terms of bad embarrassing details. >> harris: right now live you have hunter biden, his stepmother, the first lady, jill biden, his wife to the far left of your screen, melissa cohen. as he says goodbye to his supporters who have been showing up almost daily in support of him and a federal courthouse in wilmington, delaware. jurors found him guilty. this is a federal case. and, you know, the judge will decide what the sentencing will look like but they have to get through that process, andrew, as well. you heard judge jeanine say he didn't express remorse. there is not a witness impact statement in terms of this. although the fact that he got his sister-in-law who he then

dated hooked on crack. he might owe her something, like a public apology. but what does this do, though, for that case? now we've seen a situation where no one is above the law, as his dad said, and jurors who did their jobs, however they would have decided they did their jobs today. >> the credibility of hunter biden and the decisions that he makes certainly has kind of hit a head at this point. as he looks into that tax trial, this is something that under certain conditions could be used against him. it certainly if he were to testify, this could come out, the way in which he was making the decisions all play into that. you did mention judge jeanine. i want to put oh shout-out. yesterday she anticipated a verdict before noon today. it was, in fact, a verdict before noon in case that's noted for the record that judge jeanine was on point on that. >> harris: there you go. a shut-out for judge jeanine.

jonathan turley, i want to come back to you on the appellate process. could you push that trial in september further back because of the sentencing in this case? >> that's probably unlikely. there is ample time for the defense. they have to go through the pre-sentence process, the interviews, the sentencing report. it is not likely you'll get much additional time here. what is fascinating about that appellate process is that hunter biden has taken an argument from the national rifle association. he is actually arguing an nra point challenging this gun law which his father has been a great advocate of and has actually called for greater punishment for these types of gun violations. hunter biden has been arguing the nra position on the second amendment that he has a broad

second amendment right that was abridged by this prosecution. there is a supreme court case pending that could have some impact on this case. so those appellate issues are going to play out in the future. but his counsel has got to refocus on that tax case. they are going into that case now with a convicted felon. these are very different types of claims. but there is a third front developing. congress just referred what i consider to be a very strong case for a perjury investigation of hunter biden after his testimony before congress. now the expectation is that garland is going to basically scuttle that referral but the problem is that the house seems to have hunter biden dead for rights on that -- on those perjury claims. it is hard to see how what he

said before congress was true. it is a much more serious offense. it is currently sitting on the desk of merrick garland. >> harris: that's fascinating. as you were talking about the u.s. supreme court, andrew and i were talking about it, too. does this get mentioned in some of the arguments? i wonder how do you ignore the son of a sitting president as you argue among -- i don't know how it works -- a case, they'll hear from witnesses who will talk to the justices, i would imagine, as usually happens. what do you see as this playing a role in any of that discussion? >> i don't think it will have a big influence. i think that case is already baked in. these justices no matter what you may read in the media, are not nearly as roboticly partisan has has been suggested by some. these are justices with longstanding positions on the second amendment.

they will be very consistent in that regard. i don't think they are going to put any weight at all on how this affects hunter biden. as for hunter biden, this may prove the least of his problems. the chances that he goes to jail probably are low. i would not dismiss them. the problem with a jury nullification strategy it can tick off a judge. this was a case of overwhelming evidence and seemed clear to everyone that the defense was going for a nullification. it may not sit well with the judge. if she imposed jail time it would be relatively short. the tax case is a much more serious set of allegations where jail time can be more substantial. >> harris: what you were talking about with this nullification would mean they looked at the evidence, it was solid and then decide we don't want to convict him. that's the card that the defense played and it backfired. it didn't work for them. i want to bring in kerri urbahn.

we're watching now what we took live but now watching it from moments ago hunter biden leaving the courthouse with his wife melissa cohen and stepmom jill biden there hugging and saying goodbye. if it was strategy to show love for him in the courtroom, was it the right strategy? i can imagine a parent wants to be there for their child. >> look, to your point a parent does want to be there for their child. a couple of things. hunter biden is an adult and -- >> harris: he is 54. >> he is 54. what i thought was a bit curious maybe taking it a step too far when the first lady showed up to jury selection. the fact that she sat there while juror after juror was picked and looking intently, making comments. think how you feel if you are from delaware. small town, small state, the

first lady of the united states is sitting there watching you. how can you not impact how you are feeling and what is going on? so it may have backfired a bit but what i'm wondering is if there is any discussion within the biden family right now about them feeling whiplash. don't forget just a year ago the department of justice was offering hunter biden the plea deal of a lifetime, including immunity from future prosecution. no one gets that deal. it was done and ready to go and that judge stepped in. now here we are about a year later and he has been convicted on all three counts. you have to wonder what changed exactly at d.o.j. to make them go from one extreme to the other. i would say it's probably public pressure once everyone saw what hunter biden was being handed they said it isn't right and looks like special treatment for the president's son. d.o.j. did an about face and leaned in so much that yesterday they waved to the biden family

sitting there as they supported hunter and said all of this doesn't matter. the only thing that matters is evidence. so i can only imagine that kind of conversation has to be taking place right now. >> harris: andrew, obviously that jury heard the prosecutor who said that. the human beings you've been looking at from the box are not evidence in this case. >> you wonder how much pressure that put on them. with this verdict and the time the verdict took to get there, not much. because as much as he may have had family supporting him right behind him in the gallery there, there was also plenty of family that had to take the witness stand against him and expose so much of what he did over those years with the drug abuse. not just that affected him. it affected so many people around him. so even if the jurors may have had a little bit of sympathy, i think it went away so quickly when they saw exactly what he did. >> harris: it had to be hard sitting there and your neighbor, they have two houses in

delaware. your neighbor comes in and now the first lady of the united states. that has to have some impact. the fact that the jury could just look at the facts is exactly how it is supposed to work. >> they sent that message, didn't they? as much as they may have been impressed by that, they came back with a strong message. you know, i think it inditties the decision both jill and joe biden have made to put so much support behind hunter biden. it's one thing to support a child, a 54-year-old child nonetheless, but to say that they have gone to this length, it certainly feels like enabling. we were talking about that earlier. so much they have put into him when he has given them so little back in terms of his behavior and conduct when joe biden has had so much on the line. it makes you wonder what's going on in that family. >> harris: i want to go to andy mccarthy now. kerri urbahn was reporting that jill biden was there during the jury selection and kerri said how rare that is.

what are your thoughts on what we saw in just seven days? >> well, i agree with kerri it is rare for jury selection. that aside in my experience, even every terrorist, every mafia done all have a mom, you know. they all have weeping children. if you are going to prosecute cases, this was my experience 20 years in federal court, that is something that comes with the territory. it comes with the territory for prosecutors and jurors, defendants have families and very sympathetic stories and relatives and loved ones you want to sympathize with put in the first row so everybody can see them, including the jury. that has some impact maybe in some cases on the margins, but i would say 99 plus percent of cases are decided by evidence, which is why the prosecutors highlighted the evidence.

they are not decided by the talent necessarily of the lawyers. they aren't decided by how sorry you feel for family members, they are decided actually -- jurors take their oath in my experience at least pretty seriously to decide the case based only on the evidence and instructions they get from the judge. to the extent they take cues from actors in the courtroom it tends to be the judge, not defense lawyers or family members of the defendant. >> that was among your remarks with trump's trial in new york. they are taking cues from the judge who sat in that case. it would be politically and probably a situation i'm paraphrasing you, that wouldn't be good for trump. >> yeah. i think the judge in that case pretty obviously was putting his thumb on the scale. judge noreika ran a very fair courtroom and trial. that tends to favor the

prosecution in a criminal case. when a judge treats the case -- what a judge treats the case like it is serious business. it's not the same as giving the prosecutor every bounce of the ball. it is communicating to the jury that what we are here about is very serious, there has been an allegation that the law has been violated. that tends to have a very sobering effect on a jury. when a judge acts like the thing is fun and games, that tends to be good for the defense. it is just -- that's just the feel you get from a trial. >> harris: neither of them should have been fun and games. a former president of the united states or the son of one. the son of a present president of the united states. >> that's exactly right. it is also why i don't think they can afford to let this tax case go to trial. i would expect to see that plead out. >> harris: i don't know who is adjudicating that case in detail. we'll turn to that next. one thing that went through my

mind is if they find him guilty of this would they look at that case differently and this would be the one you say to hunter biden and his dad the president just days before an election, by the way, september 5th if they hold that date for the tax fraud trial. people in the country. 50 states vote before november 5th. people will already be voting. or just about to vote in early voting. interesting. i want to go back to trey gowdy. i will ask you found guilty on all counts, hunter biden. dig into the counts and tell us what they were about. >> a simple case. people like cliff hangers would not have liked this trial. three counts. two lying on an application to purchase a firearm and one was possession of a firearm while you're an you lawful user of drugs are addict. there are no legal users of

cocaine base or crack cocaine. no one legally uses that. so this was a really easy case from a factual standpoint if you can get past jury nullification, which the prosecutors did. if you like cliff hangers you won't like this case or the one coming. you either paid your taxes on time or you did not. there is not a lot of nuance to those facts. >> harris: quick thought because it was something that was on my mind and expressed it moments ago. could you see or have you seen a situation where two or three cases against an individual, just find one conviction and that will be the headline before election day? potentially we just saw one with trump. that has been the whole argument against how it went. being here to see what was going on in new york and with that particular judge. your thoughts. >> i think what's much more likely is hunter biden pleads to

the tax case. you postpone sentencing until after the election and then joe biden does what i've been arguing he would do all along, pardons his son. parents are not going to let their kids go to prison if they have to power to stop it. just get past the election. plead guilty, act like you are doing a pre-sentence investigation and i will pardon you when it doesn't hurt me politically. >> harris: that seems shady. let's watch. president biden said this last week about the verdict. >> as we sit here in normandy, your son, hunter, is on trial and i know that you cannot speak about an ongoing federal prosecution. but let me ask you will you accept the jury's outcome, their verdict no matter what it is >> yes. >> have you ruled out a pardon for your son? >> yes. >> harris: leo terrell, do you think biden will go back on that? >> yes.

your last two questions to trey were political. they weren't legal. they were political. you asked me a political question. this case is all about politics. our great distinguished cast of lawyers, we use our legal lens to try to analyze this. but it doesn't apply. when andy was talking about gangsters. we're talking about the first lady in the courtroom because it is about politics. about the election. it is about holding the most powerful position on the planet. president of the united states. this verdict, this guilty verdict has changed the equation, abbe lowell. now for political purposes cannot go to trial in september, harris, because you saw the efficiency of federal prosecutors destroying hunter biden and his lawyer in court. they know it will happen again. for political purposes, harris,

and legal, there won't in my opinion no trial in september on tax evasion. it is too straight forward-looking and clear-cut. >> harris: jonathan turley, i can't imagine a world we live in, current president running for re-election bringing this case up as a reason to elect him. his numbers hit a new low today. he is at 37 approval rating. that average coming out at 5:38 is brutal for him. i don't know it helps or hurts him. he can't go on dais across the country saying i'll get back in office and pardon my son. how does he talk about this? >> well, everyone has taken the president's denial of any intent to pardon with a grain of salt. this is before the election. if he were a lame duck president things may change dramatically. we have seen presidents in the past use the pardon authority

for personal reasons to benefit family members. bill clinton is a good example with his half brother. he waited until the last days of his presidency to issue that pardon. so we'll have to wait and see how that plays out. this obviously is not good for the first family. i take no joy in it. i never celebrate a conviction as a criminal defense attorney this is a sad moment for any family. it is particularly sad when someone has struggled with drugs. it's one of the reasons why before this trial occurred, i said they need to plead guilty immediately. that i saw no up side to going to trial even with a nullification. if he pled guilty it would have been virtually impossible to get jail time. now he put the judge in an odd position. he put the court through a case that was over overwhelming.

will the court feel like there is a modicum of responsibility that needs to be accepted and maybe jail will bring that through? will he plead guilty on the tax issue? all along there was a value to this. i think one of the most notorious lines ever given in federal court is when his defense counsel said just rip it up when the plea agreement got into trouble in the courtroom. well, they did. this is what happens. that plea bargain was really notorious. they should have done everything they could to get some of that back. they wouldn't get all of it back but instead, according to the special counsel, the defense was not eager to come forth with a new plea agreement.

this is the cost of that strategy. >> harris: i don't mean to interject. we have kerry urbahn standing by and go with her quickly. she has been in the courtroom throughout this and kerri, i know you were here in new york in the courtroom here and you have been watching this one. you know, with everybody outside we're having to adjust our shot outside the courthouse. there are signs going up. i couldn't read the one about biden. we're trying to read it. there is a certain feeling that people have about this in delaware and curious to know what it is. >> it's interesting you ask that. when i was walking out of the courthouse yesterday i noticed a couple, they were a local couple, holding a sign saying that hunter biden should go to jail. the reason why they said because this happens in delaware every day. so perhaps -- perhaps some people on the jury thought to themselves wait a second. this happened to my friend and brother and they got convicted

and went to jail. it isn't fair. especially given the crime rates in wilmington and in delaware in general. what i'm thinking about now is how does d.o.j. react to the referral from congress for hunter biden allegedly lying? the reason i think about that. professor turley raised it earlier. these referrals having been at the department of justice. there was a joke inside the department. i'm not saying it is a good one but the truth. referrals go there to die. rarely if ever does the department of justice prosecute people based off a congressional referral. does the calculus now change since hunter biden was convicted by their own justice department and will they feel more pressure to actually take some action on that? >> harris: all my guests, thank you so much covering the breaking news. a verdict, guilty on all counts against hunter biden. we'll continue our full coverage here. "outnumbered" is next.

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