cats now i want to show you something wrong. there's an organisation called the european broadcasting union, and every year they ask 1000 people in each european country about whether they trust the printed press in that country . so let's look at some country. so let's look at some of the recent results. here's 2009 most trusted luxembourg, portugal, czech republic , portugal, czech republic, netherlands, austria. so forth. and down here we're getting to poland and north macedonia ,

poland and north macedonia, armenia, latvia, and then right at the bottom here, los east. and by all means least the united kingdom. let's see, 2010 now. here we go again , now. here we go again, netherlands, austria and all that. and down here at the bottom in last place, united kingdom. let's do 2011. no we're still down at the bottom in 2011, lowest degree of trust in printed media in europe. united kingdom 2012. please oh, we've gone up one. we've got above greece. oh, that's terrific . greece. oh, that's terrific. fleet street's heart must be swelling with pride. 2013. oh, we're down again . 2014 to 2015 . we're down again. 2014 to 2015. 2016. oh, come on. 2017, 2018 to the look .

the look. >> we're above. we're above north macedonia and greece. oh makes you proud to be english. >> let's see. >> let's see. >> 2019 oh oh . >> 2019 oh oh. >> 2019 oh oh. >> it's not very good really, isn't it ? so >> it's not very good really, isn't it? so why is trust so low in british newspapers ? i think in british newspapers? i think we need an expert. and fortunately we've got one. he's a professor of communications at the university of westminster, and he's steve barnett. and he's actually rather nice . actually rather nice. >> are you got a kitty? >> are you got a kitty? >> you writing? >> you writing? >> i'm going i'm to going hand the kitty over to you. you you can be you can be the kitty. you're the bond villain. now, tell me, steve, why why is trust so low in printed media? and i think there are essentially two reasons. the first is that we have long had a tradition in the uk that our broadcast journalism

are bound by rules of accuracy and impartiality. our broadcast. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> so if you're if you're working in broadcasting, you know that there are rules that you've got to tell the truth . you've got to tell the truth. you've got to back it up with facts, but also you've got to give both sides of the argument . give both sides of the argument. whereas at the press for generations, you can essentially say what you want. now, there's nothing wrong with being opinionated as long as people are aware that there is a difference between the news pages where you expect to see facts and the opinion pages where people can sound off and say anything they want . but where people can sound off and say anything they want. but i think other reason. thank think the other reason. thank you.the think the other reason. thank you. the other reason is the complete lack of any genuine regulation in the press. so in broadcast journalism, you know that if you get it wrong, badly wrong and if you start sounding off with your opinions, as people will complain to ofcom , people will complain to ofcom, which is the regulator for broadcast costing, ofcom has teeth . it was set up by statute teeth. it was set up by statute and it will deliver on

complaints that are genuine and have merit. >> now it's had a lot of criticism recently. ofcom >> it's had some criticism , not >> it's had some criticism, not least i have to say, in terms of what it's not doing with gb news british free speech. >> we'll part that one. we'll part that one. >> so that's true . and it is >> so that's true. and it is under pressure because there are new broadcast stations which do appear to be very opinionated . appear to be very opinionated. and but that's a new issue for the press. we're talking about decades of people simply not having anywhere to go if they want to make a complaint, a genuine complaint. there is a real problem or there's a real abuse of editorial standards and there's suing is not really an option. that's the other thing. if the newspaper tells blatant lies about you. yes if you've got the money, you can go to court. but how many people have actually got enough cash behind them? it costs a lot of money. do you know how many press inquiries we've had the last inquiries we've had in the last 75 years?

>> i'm going guess it's. it's seven. >> i knew you'd know the answer. absolutely right. so seven separate inquires carries into the behaviour of the press. each one on the back of abuses of editorial standards is each time coming up with very sensible, moderate recommendations for how things might change. and every single time the government of the day has run a million miles away because they're afraid , away because they're afraid, they're frightened. and that's why you had tony blair in the 1990s flying to the other side of the world to meet rupert. >> first thing he did when he became pm. >> yeah, no, no. when he became opposition leader. oh, as opposition leader. oh, as opposition leader. oh, as opposition leader in the 95, 96, he flew to the other side of the world to speak at rupert murdoch's conference because he wanted to make sure that rupert was on side. david cameron became opposition leader , goes became opposition leader, goes and meets rupert murdoch on a yacht somewhere in greece . and yacht somewhere in greece. and thatis yacht somewhere in greece. and that is what they their belief

that is what they their belief that they their conviction is that they their conviction is that these are the people the power brokers, without whom they will not get into power. so they run a mile in the other direction. so is there any chance that we're going to reverse this? >> i mean , the eighth attempt >> i mean, the eighth attempt the government are going to be any less frightened? well, if we go back to the seventh attempt, which was leveson and the stories, some of the stories that we heard, which were truly appalling , we think phone hacking. >> phone hacking wasn't even the half he publishes his half of it. so he publishes his recommendations very moderate. it's just a sort of a regulator thatis it's just a sort of a regulator that is being sort of supervised , that is sort of someone's looking over its shoulder to make sure it's doing the job. no interference in free speech or the press or anything like that at and parliament passes the first stage. >> yes . >> yes. >> yes. >> and then the government gets frightened and cameron, obviously, as conversations with editors and he stands up in parliament and says, we're not going to complete this. >> that's right.

going to complete this. >> it's that's right. going to complete this. >> it's the at's right. going to complete this. >> it's the sameght. going to complete this. >> it's the same story over and over so coming back to over again. so coming back to your question, ever your question, is anything ever going happen? yeah i actually going to happen? yeah i actually think that we're getting to the point now and we've got three lots of phone hacking litigate is still going on. we've got more stuff coming out and more stuff that's going to come out, not just the sun, but the mail, the mirror. and i think people are beginning to realise that this is some of this is burglary . yeah, absolutely. the burglaries , the allegations burglaries, the allegations which i certainly believe are burglary of where they're paying people to break into people's houses and cars to steal documents and also to put microphones. absolutely. and so forget about phone hacking. we're talking about bugging live conversation phones. we're talking about putting bugs in cars so that you can follow them and listen to what's being said. as you say, commissioning, burglary, commissioning pies , burglary, commissioning pies, private investigators to follow people . all of this is people. all of this is incredibly intrusive. i think we're reaching the point. and

particularly there is a sort of shift in the political environment now. i think there's going to be a change of government over the next two years. the real question is whether a new government, which is going to be certainly somewhere to the left of the current one under starmer or whoever is finally prepared to do something, or whether they are still so frightened that they're going to say , no, we're they're going to say, no, we're going to leave things as they are. >> so tell me finally, why does it matter so much ? it matter so much? >> i think that's really important because some people will look at this and go, it's journalism . i mean, you know, so journalism. i mean, you know, so what you know, if you're an architect and you break the rules, then your building falls down somebody die. down and somebody might die. that's important . this just that's important. this is just journalism. and there are two reasons. first of all, because we actually rely on people telling us the truth for a for democracy to work . but i think democracy to work. but i think there's actually a much more important reason, which is that these people ruin other people's lives . it's as much about clicks

lives. it's as much about clicks on social media and on the internet as it is about what's in the news. >> well, i'm going to talk to someone who's life was ruined . someone who's life was ruined. and then i'm going to be back to talk some more to you. >> i look fonnard to it. >> i look fonnard to it. >> i'll get you a cat. i think most people assume that the majority of people worked over by the press are celebrities . by the press are celebrities. not true. the majority of the people worked over by the press. are not celebrities. and i have here with me now someone whose business was ruined by the british press, daniel hindley . british press, daniel hindley. now, you had a nail salon. is that the right? >> yeah, i do a lot of different treatments in hair nails , treatments in hair nails, beauty, a little bit of aesthetics and semi—permanent makeup . makeup. >> tell me the story . >> tell me the story. >> tell me the story. >> so the back end of 2017, um, i had a journalist come into my

home with a hidden camera pretending to be a client, and she was asking strange questions that clients don't ask like it was only the next day after where i couldn't stop thinking about this woman that had been in my house just because i knew she wasn't a client. she'd text me from a phone number to book it, so i googled her phone number and it came up straight away. charlotte waste daily mail reporter oh, and yeah, so first of all, i contacted the police because i thought she'd been in my home. um, and by this point, i didn'tjust my home. um, and by this point, i didn't just check who she was. i didn't just check who she was. i looked at some of her other articles that she'd done and she'd done some other questionable articles in, in the beauty industry . then i started beauty industry. then i started looking at some of the articles and there were photos on the articles that you could tell were screenshots from hidden cameras. and i remember when she was in my house, she kept shuffling about and her body language was really strange and

it just suddenly dawned on me. i thought, you've hidden thought, you've had a hidden camera in my house. so first of all, i contacted the police and i look, i've had a i said, look, i've had a journalist in my home. she had a hidden camera on my in my house. and at one point came and my son at one point came downstairs work room in downstairs into my work room in his undennear because just his undennear because he'd just got shower. so i was got out the shower. so i was like, listen, i'm not for like, listen, i'm not happy for somebody film my child. and somebody to film my child. and the police would basically like, listen, journalists can what listen, journalists can do what they want. like we can't we don't have any way of dealing with they printed the with them. once they printed the article, business was done. article, my business was done. >> so what happened? they printed the article and it said what they said that, um , i what they said that, um, i disfigured a client, which is untrue . untrue. >> they said that i was not qualified , that i wasn't qualified, that i wasn't insured, that i wasn't licenced. um and basically just they basically called me a rogue beautician in cowboy cosmetic. they made people scared to come to me and they made me out to be a criminal. it was a double page

spread. it had photos of me. it told them the village that i lived in. so everyone in the village was calling me scum. oh yeah. like like my neighbours were shouting scum at me and stuff because i live in a really nice little village and. and they were , oh, my god, they were they were, oh, my god, they were trolling me like you wouldn't believe you'd thought i'd killed somebody. the way they were trolling me . every beautician , i trolling me. every beautician, i think in england that ever sort of thought i was some sort of con petition will loving it. i had customers that had come to me for years and it's affected some of my family relationships now forever. you know , i don't now forever. you know, i don't have any relationship with my mother or my siblings and that ultimately is because of that article and because people believe what they read. if i hadn't have proved in the way that i did, if i hadn't have gone through it. so and then if i hadn't have then gone a step further and, you know, taken a

libel case to the mail and won, i don't think my business would have recovered . and if i'm being have recovered. and if i'm being completely honest, i don't think i would be here now either . i would be here now either. yeah. so tell me about the libel case. um so when once the ipso had upheld my upheld my complaint, which they didn't do a good job, but they upheld the most important bit, they did uphold it. yeah. i was one of the less than 1% that they upheld, but they didn't have a choice. john, i emailed them every single day for eight months and i told them how bad it was affecting my health. i told them that i was suicidal and i made it very clear that i wasn't going to go away until they made them print the truth and then when they upheld the complaint , they said the mail complaint, they said the mail had to print a correction on on page two of the mail on sunday, page two. yeah, come on. it

wasn't printed on page two. no, they had a more important story about harry and meghan, apparently. what they printed about me initially was a double page spread and the correction line is this side a little sentence, the tiniest sentence . sentence, the tiniest sentence. i couldn't even find it. my friend found it and she was like, oh, they have prints. i've found it. nobody could find it. it was a joke . and also nobody it was a joke. and also nobody was talking about that when i was talking about that when i was , you know, putting all over was, you know, putting all over social media. yeah, they printed a correction . nobody gave a when a correction. nobody gave a when you sat down, you said, you know , the paper ruined your business. the paper ruined my mental health. my business will survive because i'm very good at my job. my business came back and my business is okay. what they did to my mental health was unforgivable . and my son nearly unforgivable. and my son nearly ended up without a mother because of that . because i because of that. because i didn't leave my bedroom for months like when it was before i even had when it was all

ongoing. i think this was just when i was dealing with ipso . i when i was dealing with ipso. i did not leave my bedroom. i didn't shower, i didn't brush my teeth, i didn't eat. i was living on cups of tea cups of tea that my child was making for me . yeah, i cost them a lot of me. yeah, i cost them a lot of money. i did. but no matter how much money they had to spend on their legal fees, my legal fees and my compensate ocean, it was never going to be enough to make what they did to me and my son. okay? it'll never be okay. and that's why i still do things like this, where i do speak about it because there's a lot of people that this this because the way media laws set up, it's not set up to help people like me. no, my case cost hundreds of thousands in legal fees. i didn't have that money to do that. i was just fortunate enough that i came across a lawyer who who basically was my hero, hacked off, put me in touch with him. he's called

jonathan code. he asked me what happened, and i told him and he said, there's not really any such thing. there's no win , no such thing. there's no win, no fee in media law. he said, but i'm going to do something for you. he said, i'm going to take on your case and i'm going to help you. i said, listen, i've researched you and i know that you deal with royal family you deal you don't deal with celebrities, you don't need my case. why have you taken my case on? and he said , because my case on? and he said, because i'm a devout christian and you need me . and i thought, wow, need me. and i thought, wow, because as i used to go to bed every night during this period and i'm not religious, but i went to bed every night and i got on my knees and i begged and i prayed and i said , you need to i prayed and i said, you need to send somebody to help me because i didn't know what to do . and, i didn't know what to do. and, um, so then when he said that to me, i thought, oh, my god, i might have to start going to church. >> at least some decent people

around, even if they're not fleet street editors. yeah danielle, i just want to thank you for telling us this. it's very touching . thank you. and very touching. thank you. and thank jonathan code, too. yeah, absolutely . absolutely. >> thanks. >> thanks. >> thanks. >> thank you . >> thank you. >> thank you. >> well, i'm going to ask kirsty barnett what he makes of all that. so steve, how did you react to that ? react to that? >> well, i've seen danielle tell her story a couple of times , and her story a couple of times, and ihave her story a couple of times, and i have to say every single time it gets me, i mean, first of all, the courage of the woman. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> to go through what she went to and then be able to tell it the way she tells it. but i think it's important to remember that every danielle, that for every danielle, there'll ten, 15, 20 others there'll be ten, 15, 20 others who don't have the courage, the bravery , who would just give in bravery, who would just give in when they're told you don't sue the mail. they don't. whereas, you know, danielle being the sort of person she is, she takes that as a challenge. and i'm

delighted that hacked off were able to help and that jonathan was able to help and she got the justice she deserved. but she should not have had to go through that for the sake of a story . it's pure bullying . story. it's pure bullying. >> so given that the last seven attempts to reform the press have collapsed because the government was frightened of the press. do you see any anything optimistic ? optimistic? >> i'm an optimist by nature. so that's not the question . and that's not the question. and i do think that that actually times are changing. and i do think that with a change of government , that when people government, that when people look at the detail of the cases that are coming out now, the hacking, the pies, the burglary , hacking, the pies, the burglary, the phone tapping, etcetera , the phone tapping, etcetera, they'll go they'll say, enough is enough. >> amen to that. >> amen to that. >> we will see. >> we will see. >> thank you, steve. thank you very, very much. right . i know

very, very much. right. i know. chris chris, what chris tarrant. >> tarrant. yes. >> tarrant. yes. >> what are you doing here? >> what are you doing here? >> well, i'm playing strip poker with these three away .

>> everything's got to be a drama with you. >> i'm more of a drama princess. i haven't reached the queen stage. >> the dinosaur are with me. john cleese on . gb news now. john cleese on. gb news now. there haven't been many people doing anything much about this awful press of ours, but one group that i very much admire is called hacked off and the lady who sort of runs it is jackie hames. i know you don't really run it, but it's much more interesting if i say, jackie, thank you for coming. tell me about hacked off. >> you're very welcome , john.

>> you're very welcome, john. it's lovely to meet you . hacked off. >> we don't have to be polite . >> we don't have to be polite. you can be really rude to me. it's much more fun. >> we'll come onto that later, okay? no, it's hacked off. came. really was born out of all the revelation options that appeared in after the hacking of the murdered schoolgirl milly dowler's phone. >> so what year was that? >> so what year was that? >> so what year was that? >> so that would have been 2011. 11. a group of people sort of. thank you so much , paid no thank you so much, paid no attention , got together and attention, got together and thought , attention, got together and thought, i mean, i wasn't involved then, but got together and thought, enough's enough. the people, you know, people who were really involved in this area, the sense regulation were really involved in this areapresssense regulation were really involved in this areapress ande regulation were really involved in this areapress and that'egulation were really involved in this areapress and that type ation were really involved in this areapress and that type of)n were really involved in this areapress and that type of thing and press and that type of thing and press and that type of thing and news. and they felt that they'd had enough and they felt there should be a public inquiry. you know, the real ationship between the press and the public, the press and the police and the press and the politicians . politicians. >> all right. so how did you get into hector? >> well, as i was, you know,

worked as well as being a police officer. i worked on a tv programme called crimewatch for 16 years, six years, 16 years, 16. yeah. >> 16 years. >> 16 years. >> i figured out how old you are i >> -- >> i'll make up a figure later. don't worry. >> i'm 83, so . >> i'm 83, so. >> i'm 83, so. >> yeah . and as a result, has >> yeah. and as a result, has slightly public profile . but slightly public profile. but actually it wasn't really because of that. my husband was investigating a murder for which of a private investigator called daniel morgan, and he was murdered and he was investigating that one. yeah. and as a result of being on that inquiry , we it was discovered inquiry, we it was discovered that we as a family would be under some sort of threat of them trying to influence the way he conducted that murder inquiry. and we were put under the umbrella of the witness protection scheme and it was all very difficult. but at one point we were put under surveillance thinking it was the people

responsible for this axe murder . responsible for this axe murder. but when they were stopped , it but when they were stopped, it turned out they were paid for and employed by news of the world, and it turned out that they'd hacked our phones. they were putting us under surveillance . yes. and oh, surveillance. yes. and oh, i was. you know, it is really like being in the matrix film . you being in the matrix film. you feel like you've entered an alternate universe and suddenly everything is looking really different and you're seeing things from a completely different perspective . so when i different perspective. so when i was asked by hacked off to come and sign this petition for a pubuc and sign this petition for a public inquiry , at that point i public inquiry, at that point i said , yes, i think we really said, yes, i think we really need to start to uncover what actually happened. >> but what do you do? >> but what do you do? >> well, there's several aspects to what we do. one is to talking politicians and lobbying and bringing a different perspective to the information persuasion, persuade, gentle persuasion of an ideas as to how this problem

can be solved. but we also do advocacy for victims , people advocacy for victims, people like me, ordinary people and people in the public eye who who are really struggling to get any sort of justice. >> that's what i'm interested in is what's this regulatory body ? is what's this regulatory body? i mean, it's called ipso and it replaced the press complaints , replaced the press complaints, something or other complaints commission commission that's right. and that was dismay mantled after leveson and replaced by ipso. when i say replaced by ipso. when i say replaced . but tell us about ipso. >> well , it was basically the >> well, it was basically the same organisation . same organisation. >> they just literally the same building and they changed the same officers sign over the door . effectively it's i mean you wouldn't you couldn't write this as my comedic friends say, they just changed the name on the doon >> they kept the same office. >> they kept the same office. >> that's what it kind of felt

like to the rest of us. >> and then the newspapers paid for this body that's supposed to regulate them. >> and they write their editors code, which is supposed to be a framework for, you know, their ethical conduct . ethical conduct. >> and that code is laid down by ten editors and three laypersons, right? so that's what gives the press a little bit of an advantage. >> exactly. >> exactly. >> and these guys who decide whether it's a legitimate complaint against the press are paid for by the press. yeah it's a python sketch. >> it's marking their own homework . homework. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> yes, i like that phrase. oh what a joke. hey frustrating. >> i mean , you have to laugh >> i mean, you have to laugh because it is so ridiculous. >> but say something to cheer me up . up. >> say something to cheer you up. we're here fighting, john. we're not going give up. we're not going to give up. we've been here for 11 years, and we absolutely are not going to up now. to give up now. >> hacked off, ladies and gentlemen, up. gentlemen, look it up. all right. thank you . years ago, i

right. thank you. years ago, i used to read about hacking, but i never actually knew what it was until this year. hacked me. ha ha ha ha. you naughty, naughty man . naughty man. >> yeah, but i would have never met you if i hadn't hacked you. >> oh, that's true. >> oh, that's true. >> yeah, that's very true. anyway you've come over from the dark side, so you're most welcome. dan oh, tell me the hacking that you were involved in. in my case, i had worked locally as a private investigator for started out working for rupert murdoch for a show, a current affair , and then show, a current affair, and then went over to a show called hardcore ipp inside edition america. >> i worked for these television tabloid shows and what were you doing? i was a private investigator. whenever a story was breaking about whoever they wanted me to track that person down so they could go in and interview them or contact them

and i eventually , eventually got and i eventually, eventually got out of working for the american tabloids and i was looking for work. so i started a company called british american news service . oh, and through word of service. oh, and through word of mouth, i never advertised used at all. journal and what they call stringer. journalist reporters for the various tabloids. and in london started calling me and asking me to locate people and do background checks on them. and background checks. yeah find out everything. well it never occurred to me at the time , um, occurred to me at the time, um, that. occurred to me at the time, um, that . when you do a occurred to me at the time, um, that. when you do a background check as a as a private investigator , you get full investigator, you get full details , you get their social details, you get their social security numbers or driver's licence or date of birth , licence or date of birth, mother's maiden name, all that stuff that that really shouldn't be used by journalists . you be used by journalists. you should just give them where do they live, what's their phone number? and that's it. >> because if they if you give them the social security, then

they can use that. >> how ? well, over here, i guess >> how? well, over here, i guess you call it blagging, but they can use that to pretend to be you . so in your case, they had you. so in your case, they had people call up credit card companies and say, oh, i lost my phone bill, you know, i need to get a copy. and as long as you can answer all the questions correctly, i don't know whether they even bother doing impersonate your voice. they'll ask like, what's your ask you like, what's your mother's name? i mother's maiden name? i bet a blaggard john ford, who blaggard called john ford, who i'm delighted to say he used to go to my old school. >> and what he said was he would use lots of accents because he said the best way to get information out people was to information out of people was to pretend that were very pretend that you were very stupid . and once got stupid. and once they've got something like a social security number or the national health number or the national health number or the national health number or something like that, they can ring up pretending that they're from a hospital or bank. >> absolutely. absolutely. they can pretend to be you or somebody connected to you and say, oh, i've lost this file.

can you send me a copy of it? it became common practise to get your phone records and your credit card bills as your text messages , everything by messages, everything by pretending to be you. >> but what i want to know is, do you think the knowledge of this went right to the top ? this went right to the top? >> oh, absolutely. they knew exactly what they were doing and they paid big money. i was making a quarter of $1 million a year for quite a long time because i could i had a reputation that i could find out everything about anybody, anywhere . and it didn't matter anywhere. and it didn't matter who they were . i had the social who they were. i had the social security numbers for the five fastest past us presidents and all of their data. >> so i have one last question, diana. what did you find out about me ? about me? >> well, you you're actually kind of boring . you know , they kind of boring. you know, they were very interested in one of your wives down in texas. one of them, one. oh, yeah, i know the

one. >> one. >> yeah. diana, thanks for coming along. that's great. >> thank you very much .

>>i >> i have here someone who needs no introduction, so i'm not going to give him one. chris well, i thought you'd give me a build up saying one of the most gifted broadcasters in. all right. he is one of the most gifted broadcasters writers i've ever had the pleasure to meet. >> think we say ever >> i think we can say i've ever had the pleasure to meet. thank you, chris. >> thank you for doing this. >> thank you for doing this. >> it's pleasure. i'm >> well, it's my pleasure. i'm a bit why there are three bit puzzled why there are three live and dead pine marten live cats and a dead pine marten on table, because people on the table, but because people love cats i love cats, love cats and i love cats, i don't seem to like pine martens. that's very strange. >> stoat. do you know >> that's a stoat. do you know how you can the difference how you can tell the difference between a stoat and weasel? between a stoat and a weasel? well, is weasel and well, the weasel is weasel and identified the stoats identified because the stoats are totally different now , tell are totally different now, tell me your story about these.

>> um , i have a very good >> um, i have a very good relationship with some journalists. yeah done interviews with some of them time and time again because they're decent, honest folk. i've also had periods of my life when i've been surround by journalists, so i didn't like very much. and paparazzi popping up. they actually did once go through my dustbins. i remember there really was nothing there. a lot of fish. there really was nothing there. a l(that fish. there really was nothing there. a l(that wasfish. there really was nothing there. a l(that was when were a huge >> that was when you were a huge star. well i think it started. >> thank you. what a nice man . i >> thank you. what a nice man. i think when who wants to be a millionaire? started and we were sponsored by the sun newspaper . sponsored by the sun newspaper. >> sponsored by. >> sponsored by. >> yeah. so we got written about very nicely in the sun, obviously. but all the others were trying to dig some dirt up about me, about the show, about it's all a crook or whatever. >> so not information, but dirt. >> so not information, but dirt. >> just just dirt really . >> just just dirt really. >> just just dirt really. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> you know, knock me off an pedestal and knock knock the show off its pedestal pedestal. it was huge. i mean, when

millions started, it was just colossal. >> the number one that >> it was the number one that was probably i mean, i was very naive. >> i'm sorry. i've just stood on a cat. i was very naive. but i think then the sort of phone hacking was starting because there were , you know, that there were, you know, that strange thing when you're to talking someone on the phone and you sort of think there's somebody else listening, i never had that. yeah, had that had that. yeah, i've had that because you used to have those things like tide lines and things, i thought i never things, and i thought i never i never anything it. i never said anything about it. i just was a rubbish just thought it was a rubbish phone that i was using and then when i split from my wife, i mean, just open mean, it became just open season and everywhere. you and they were everywhere. you know, they trying to get at know, they were trying to get at my they obviously my children. they were obviously trying to talk my ex wife. trying to talk to my ex wife. >> they were trying get your >> they were trying to get your children? yeah >> was only later that i >> and it was only later that i began to realise that this hacking actually taking hacking lot was actually taking place phones. no place on my phones. i had no idea. i'd never i'd heard of it. i thought it something that i thought it was something that happened that happened to somebody else that happens hollywood. happens in hollywood. >> it was the world of spies. >> so eventually the >> yeah. so eventually the police to me, actually, and

police came to me, actually, and there was gentleman called police came to me, actually, and there imulcaireltleman called police came to me, actually, and there imulcaire from an called police came to me, actually, and there imulcaire from news led police came to me, actually, and there imulcaire from news of the glenn mulcaire from news of the world. and on his blotter , in world. and on his blotter, in his in his office were all sorts of phone numbers of various people and whatever. but ct my name was, was by my mobile phone number, my, my landline at home. and also my texts . and they and also my texts. and they said, and the guy eventually went to prison. i mean, he was he was done for it and he was banged up for what? >> for having your number. i don't understand. not for just having my number. >> no, because he he was >> no, because he was he was found guilty of hacking all sorts of people. lots and lots and people hacked. and lots of people were hacked. there were periods when, for example, driver, is an example, jim, my driver, is an enormous, wonderful big bear of a man, lovely guy, huge. um, a man, a lovely guy, huge. um, and he's been with me for 20, 25 years. and one of my closest friends, the kids all love him. he's just a really good guy. and there was one particular night when i was separated and i took a lady out. i met for her a

dnnks a lady out. i met for her a drinks and then we went for dinner and there were sort of photographers everywhere. we went. and this this carried on through night and through through the night and through the when her the next morning when i took her to so on. and that to work and so on. and that evening we'd done who wants to be millionaire at elstree. be a millionaire up at elstree. and when were driving home, and when we were driving home, i said to jim, i can't understand this, how did they know so much detail about where i was going? i mean, it was quite extraordinary because the only person i talked to was jim on the phone. and jim to me, the phone. and jim turned to me, great with tears in his great big lump with tears in his eyes. he said, you've got to think it's me. oh and i said, you know, i love you, mate. i do think you. i can't. think it was you. i can't. there's nobody other there's nobody else, no other explanation. really explanation. it was only really an our relationship was pretty grim for quite a long time. as a guy l grim for quite a long time. as a guy i love, i trusted this guy literally with everything. and he knew so much about me, you know, because we we'd spent hundreds of hours together driving night from driving home late at night from studios or whatever. >> one of the most awful >> i think one of the most awful things about this and people think, as a celebrity think, oh, as a celebrity and he's having time, but all he's having a bad time, but all all the closest relate ships are

broken up because the only assumption is not that you've been hacked, but because this person you've known all these years is talking to the press. there's appalling. >> i know. and it was with jim, obviously, but also with my friends, my kids. i didn't trust anybody weeks until anybody for weeks until eventually pattern i eventually a pattern emerged. i went, god, that's what's went, oh my god, that's what's been happening. a horrible time. i also became a kind of i mean, it also became a kind of sport because as they were just everywhere , i mean, literally, everywhere, i mean, literally, as i say, they were looking my dustbins. i mean, what are you going to find? a bloke's dustbin, a pair of soiled pants or whatever, god knows, bless them. i mean, they were always, always following jim in my car and of the spent on and a lot of the time i spent on the back with a blanket my the back with a blanket over my head was quite bizarre. head and it was quite bizarre. the whole period, but also quite often switch cars so often we would switch cars so jim would go off a blanket jim would go off with a blanket in back over a sort of in the back over a sort of a pillow. oh, he took a miles. he took him from elstree studios once i was the once convinced that i was in the back of car, almost down back of this car, almost down the canterbury. got he the canterbury. and he got he got out parked up of got out and parked up and of

course went a cup of course went for in a cup of coffee in a service station. and they all ran to the car knocking on the window and there was nobody it did become nobody there. so it did become a sport. my favourite, my favourite moment that i remember from lives from all this is thatjim lives down in dartford and as i say, he's a big old boy and he got home quite late one night. he dropped me off somewhere and went home and he was sort of on his way to getting into bed. and there was a knock on the door. hello, mr luck . and he went, hello, mr luck. and he went, yeah, you know, i'm yeah, what is it you know, i'm trying sleep. it's the sun trying to sleep. it's the sun newspaper mr luck. we've newspaper here, mr luck. we've got here for £5,000. got a cheque here for £5,000. someone's we someone's going to get it. we want about chris want a story about chris tarrant. someone's going get tarrant. someone's going to get it. might as well be you and jim went. all right, wait a minute. wait minute. and waited for wait a minute. and i waited for a minutes and the a couple of minutes and the door burst and jim's holding. burst open and jim's holding. now is in a vest. got now jim is in a vest. he's got his trousers he's in a vest. his trousers on. he's in a vest. so it's pretty scary sight. so it's a pretty scary sight. it's this huge chunk of wood it's got this huge chunk of wood in his hand, and they're going, what you doing? what are you what are you doing? what are you doing? i've got chunk of doing? well, i've got a chunk of wood going to doing? well, i've got a chunk of wooit. going to doing? well, i've got a chunk of wooit. it going to doing? well, i've got a chunk of wooit. it might going to doing? well, i've got a chunk of wooit. it might as going to doing? well, i've got a chunk of wooit. it might as well going to

doing? well, i've got a chunk of wooit. it might as well bejing to doing? well, i've got a chunk of wooit. it might as well be you. to get it. it might as well be you. and they ran down the street like scalded bunnies. one of the things i remember vividly, because think it's such because i think it's such a great was talking great expression, i was talking to collins, who'd to phil collins, who'd had a really very bad time with the press him and, you know, press chasing him and, you know, all sorts intrusion, all sorts of intrusion, whatever. said, do you whatever. and i said, do you think guys, because think these guys, because they're some of are they're doing some of them are doing really illegal dirty things, not of them, but things, is not all of them, but some them. said, do you some of them. and i said, do you think realise think they actually realise the hurt causing? phil hurt they're causing? and phil said, the trouble is said, he said the trouble is they've in so long they've been down in the so long they've been down in the so long they no longer smell it, they can no longer smell it, which is an unpleasant idea, but actually it's spot on. >> becomes the way you >> it just becomes the way you do things. you forget about the moral thing. yeah, yeah . moral thing. yeah, yeah. >> drinking your gin. >> drinking your gin. >> it's going to be a very happy cat soon. when you said , do you cat soon. when you said, do you know plenty of journalists were decent guys? this is true. absolutely but the real pressure , the real villains, i think , , the real villains, i think, are the editors, because the editors basically say to them, if you don't do this, you're fine . and they've got a wife and

fine. and they've got a wife and kids and a mortgage. yeah, right. absolutely. so it's the editors who seem to me to be the really evil ones . and of course, really evil ones. and of course, they you never hear about them because they preserve a kind of anonymity. yeah but i feel that that they must basically be sociopaths to have so little care for other people's feelings. none at all. >> i just hope that slowly it's getting better. but there are more and more fake famous people who are fair game because all this sort of reality. there are so many people now. yeah. when you started when i started, there weren't that many famous people at all. there wasn't this atmosphere and they actually thought murdoch thought that was before murdoch bought the news of the world. >> it ever since then. yeah >> it ever since then. yeah >> and there is this feeling which i certainly have never subscribed to. like if you're on the right, if i sit out of this or i get the cats licked, you're

very welcome. so the cat's tongue in it probably be okay. >> well, it's gin anyway. >> well, it's gin anyway. >> oh, here he comes again . >> oh, here he comes again. >> oh, here he comes again. >> oh, here he comes again. >> oh, thank you . >> oh, thank you. >> oh, thank you. >> he's a bit of a nuisance, isn't he? he's very intrusive, man . man. >> i don't know. i don't know where he comes from. >> i like me much. he's >> i like me much. he's >> he's a sort of maitre d around very unpleasant around here, but very unpleasant sort of guy. we'll cut this bit. all right. i'm going to talk to the director of. >> i think there are people now who just being famous. so who just like being famous. so so you're on the front page so if you're on the front page of one the tabloids, even if of one of the tabloids, even if you're absolutely you're being absolutely vilified, like, look me. vilified, it's like, look at me. look at me on front page today. yes. but it says had sex yes. but it says you had sex with it don't with your mother. it don't matter. i'm there. i'm there. i'm up in lights. i think there matter. i'm there. i'm there. i'rquite n lights. i think there matter. i'm there. i'm there. i'rquite a lights. i think there matter. i'm there. i'm there. i'rquite a lot|ts. i think there matter. i'm there. i'm there. i'rquite a lot of i think there matter. i'm there. i'm there. i'rquite a lot of that nk there matter. i'm there. i'm there. i'rquite a lot of that now. iere is quite a lot of that now. >> well, thank you very much for coming. >> i really appreciate you talking to me. god bless . see so talking to me. god bless. see so the last person i'm going to talk to today is mr ian lucas. hello there. thanks for coming. thank you . thank you. >> ian is a lawyer , but none the

>> ian is a lawyer, but none the worse for that. >> and he was also an mp, a labour mp , for 19 years for labour mp, for 19 years for wrecks around that. but i kind of fell in love with you because i saw a clip on the internet where you were cross—examining hancock. matt hancock , about hancock. matt hancock, about a statement that he made in the house of commons, which seemed to be rather mislay reading. let's, let's have a look at it. >> i decided that the best thing is not to have a i know what your position is fonnard looking inquiry, but what i'm saying to you that is that you mis you is that is that you mis misrepresented, sir brian leveson's position to the commons on that day? well, that's your view. we're not going to come to agreement on it. i think i faithfully represent it as set out as, as you read out. and but i, i, i understand. i can see that you would rather have done it differently. >> now. what i would rather would, would be that you were

straightfonnard and now i'm a lawyer. okay? yes, i know when particular words are draft bid for particular purpose purposes. and i think your words were drafted to mislead . well, that's drafted to mislead. well, that's what i think. >> well, i all i can say and what i would have preferred would be if you quoted sir brian leveson when he said that he fundamentally disagreed with the conclusion that the government had reached. >> i can see that that was that's your preference. >> yeah, i wrote my speech in order to describe his position, my preference and secretary of state is honesty and straightfonnard evidence. >> that's right. and i would really welcome that from you noted . noted. >> i thought that was quite wonderful . wonderful. >> what's extraordinary is that this is the first time i've been asked to speak about this. >> what no one was interested. >> what no one was interested. >> no one covered it. and matt hancock, after that interview , hancock, after that interview, believe it or not, was promoted .

believe it or not, was promoted. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. >> that was very, very limited coverage about the interview at the time. >> but of course, remember, this was about the press , which i was about the press, which i think is not coincidental. >> no . so leveson two, let's >> no. so leveson two, let's talk about leveson two, because it seems to me and i'm not well enough often form that we badly need that. tell me. >> i think we do what leveson two is about. what is the relationship between the press and the police ? and this was an and the police? and this was an essential part of the leveson inquiry . remember that it was inquiry. remember that it was set up in around the milly dowler yes, controversy and we were able then to investigate with the press. and this is what leveson one was about. the newspapers and what steps they'd been taken . but leveson two been taken. but leveson two could not proceed because there were a number of criminal trials that were happening and had to finish before we could look into

the detail of the relationship between the police and the press and we know from the parliament inquiry that took place in around 2003 that rebekah brooks admitted to a parliamentary inquiry that they bought the sun, bought information from the police , that that was admitted police, that that was admitted to chris bryant way back . to chris bryant way back. nothing was done about that . nothing was done about that. nothing was done about that. nothing until the dowler incident happened . and it was incident happened. and it was only then that it was picked up some 7 or 8 years later. we what else is there in leveson two that people should be rooting for? well, they should be looking at issues like the ownership of newspapers about the connections that that there are with with people who own the biggest newspapers that we read every day. but actually don't live in britain. no i know there's a small world in in in

british politics that is closely connected to newspapers. yes and when something like my interview with matt hancock happens. yes, i think that there are connections that are made that prevent the wide dissemination of information like that. i think the government needs to look at the ownership of newspapers, introduce rules and laws that other countries have. yeah wouldn't be a bad idea. >> and that would enable the us to have a, you know , a wide to have a, you know, a wide ranging open press expressing different points of view from different points of view from different ends of the political spectrum that that that would enable us to have a sensible debate in in the newspapers proper democratic debate. yeah. in the way that we just don't have at the moment in shut up .

have at the moment in shut up. as professor barnett said, you can't have a proper democracy unless the voters have reasonably decent and honest information and we don't have that now. >> we have newspapers which as a knee jerk reaction, support the tories and a couple that supports the left . and if we supports the left. and if we want more accurate and honest information , then we have to information, then we have to regulate the newspaper papers that have basically become propaganda sheets and the next step in doing that is to implement leveson to so that when a newspaper paper prints something that's untrue to a regulatory body can order them to print a correction in the same size and the same prominence as the original untruth . we need a system more untruth. we need a system more like ofcom for the printed press . now the press will say this inhibits their freedom and their right, but only a little bit. it'll inhibit their freedom to

tell any lies as they well like p°p tell any lies as they well like pop music . on.

n ext next time on the dinosaur. our so i. >> i had this empty hole in me that said feed me i need this sugar. that said feed me i need this sugar . and then when it wasn't sugar. and then when it wasn't sugar. and then when it wasn't sugar it became tobacco. and i smoked and then in my 20s, it became cocaine. it became that i just and i couldn't sit still without

south good. >> good evening. your top stories from the gp newsroom.

the prime minister says plans by some groups to protest during remembrance commemorations are provocative and disrespectful. in a statement, rishi sunak said the right to remember in peace and dignity must be protected. labour leader sir keir starmer echoed those comments , saying he echoed those comments, saying he supports the police in whatever action is needed. it comes after reports of plans by demonstrators to march during remembrance events calling for a ceasefire in the israel—hamas war. foreign secretary james cleverly has this evening said the focus should remain on remembrance . the israeli remembrance. the israeli military has confirmed 260 idf troops have been wounded in the fighting in gaza. people in the north of the enclave have been facing intense bombardment. the israeli prime minister says there will be no pause in fighting until more than 240 hostages are freed by hamas. it comes as the us secretary of state has been meeting with benjamin netanyahu to discuss

steps to minimise civilian casualties and tony blinken said a humanitarian pause was important to help get aid into the strip . scotland's first the strip. scotland's first minister, humza yousaf, says his family's been able to leave gaza through the rafah crossing. there among 92 british nationals trapped in the enclave that were approved to travel through into egypt today as the border opened again for limited evacuations . again for limited evacuations. palestinian officials say more than 700 foreign nationals have crossed in the past two days, including dozens of critically injured people . to two women injured people. to two women have been charged under the terrorism act after images of paragliders were displayed at a pro—palestinian march in central london. 29 year old heba al—hayy . 26 year old pauline and kunda are accused of carrying or displaying an article to arouse suspicion. they're supporters of the terrorist group hamas . the the terrorist group hamas. the incident occurred last month . incident occurred last month. they've both been bailed.

they'll appear in court on