tominey show. camilla tominey show. >> lovely to have your company this sunday morning . it's been this sunday morning. it's been another tough week for rishi sunak and the government. he lost his immigration minister robert jenrick, resign for robert jenrick, who resign for calling the government's new rwanda triumph of hope rwanda bill a triumph of hope over experience. he faces a key vote in the commons on tuesday. will mps back his rwanda plan to stop the boats.7 we've got a top array guests here to talk to array of guests here to talk to you about it all and to talk us through all of the different finer details . going be finer details. i'm going to be joined by levelling up secretary and housing secretary michael gove. was gove. just how damaging was that, resignation gove. just how damaging was thathe resignation gove. just how damaging was thathe government resignation gove. just how damaging was thathe government .7esignation gove. just how damaging was thathe government .7 but|ation gove. just how damaging was thathe government .7 but we'll for the government? but we'll also get a labour view from the peer former minister lord peer and former minister lord george foulkes. i'll be joined by former tory leader sir iain duncan smith , his think tank, duncan smith, his think tank, the centre for social justice, has published new report has just published a new report out warning that britain is broken post—pandemic will of broken. post—pandemic will of course be getting his thoughts on rwanda to . we'll also get the on rwanda to. we'll also get the view from a backbench tory doctor luke evans . he's doctor luke evans. he's celebrating a win this week because the supermarket chain

morrisons is launching a buy british campaign and on the back of a campaign that he led, they're going be labelling they're going to be labelling all comes from all of the food that comes from britain that customers know britain so that customers know that locally , that it's been farmed locally, so he's also a so to speak. he's also a familiar face to gb news viewers. denis macshane, he's going to come in and talk to us about a book that he's about a new book that he's written about the first term of tony blair's government. so he'll back to 1997, he'll be taking us back to 1997, and we'll be seeing whether sir keir starmer repeat the keir starmer can repeat the glory those days. now, as you glory of those days. now, as you can imagine , it's been a pretty can imagine, it's been a pretty busy weekend for the newspapers. i mean, there's some quite astonishing stories in some of the sunday papers that we're going to through with going to talk through now with martin townsend, the former sunday editor who sunday express editor who i worked with for 15 years. martin lovely to see you this morning. i mean, let's just kick off with a kind of story that gives us the overview of what rishi sunak is facing. this week over rwanda. page two of the sun, the headuneis rwanda. page two of the sun, the headline is rwanda rebels snub rishi's plea. and it's talking about all the different challenges the prime minister

faces over this policy that a little bit , you know, sort of little bit, you know, sort of like a dinghy in the channel he's clinging on to for dear life. but one wonders whether this is just a fool's errand. i mean, it's not getting him anywhere politically. this is it. >> no, i think it is a fool's errand. i think it's i think it was never a practical plan, frankly . i don't think i think frankly. i don't think i think the principle is correct. we don't want illegal immigrants thinking that they can come here and settle in. you you know, they moved on. and they should be moved on. and it's problem, but it's a it's a problem, but it's a problem for the whole world. it's a problem as ever. it's a global problem as ever. i think britain leading the way think britain is leading the way on find a way on this in trying to find a way to it. but this is not the to do it. but this is not the way do it. and i'm afraid way to do it. and i'm afraid it's dragging the tory party down. i can't see why the down. i can't see why at the moment they're allowing it to just a legal just descend into a legal battle. well, that actually is boring. i think the boring. the public. i think the pubuc boring. the public. i think the public with it. public are bored with it. they've enough of it and they've had enough of it and actually they're not addressing the real that they should the real issues that they should be addressing at the moment in order and claw back some order to try and claw back some votes. hopefully votes. and you know, hopefully win election. win the election.

>> i mean, the electorate clearly about clearly does care about migration, both and migration, both legal and illegal. a tory illegal. and expects a tory government, particularly to do something so we can something about it. so we can see politics behind a pledge see the politics behind a pledge to stop the boats and bring the legal numbers down. however and i know you now work in pr from a pr perspective, i thought that emergency press conference in the week where he's already on the week where he's already on the ropes and then puts the ropes and then he puts himself in a position where he allows colleague allows my gb news colleague chris hope political editor chris hope as political editor to put a question to to basically put a question to him and say this policy is a joke. and you're a joke, aren't you? minister? i mean, you? prime minister? i mean, this politics. this is bad politics. >> it's terrible politics. and it's really bad, badly it's been really bad, badly managed from communications managed from a communications point know, managed from a communications pointhat's know, managed from a communications pointhat's that's know, managed from a communications pointhat's that's a know, managed from a communications pointhat's that's a classic know, and that's that's a classic example of it. the problem is he cannot win. he really cannot win with this. he can't. he with this. he can't. he he doesn't want to make it tough enough that it actually would work. so he's alienating the right wing of his party anyway. yes. should yes. you know, parliament should let's honest parliament let's be honest, parliament should trump the will of the echr. should. that's it echr. it should. that's what it should has the right to should do. it has the right to do should do it. but

do it. and it should do it. but to try and do that now before an election the election election, even if the election even the election is at the even if the election is at the end of the we're still end of the year, we're still going to be arguing the legalities of it at a time when labour are just sitting back and just enjoying and you just enjoying the fight and you know , the tories to be know, the tories need to be taking fight to them. taking that fight to them. >> interesting, isn't >> it's interesting, isn't it, because what on because we don't know what on earth starmer would do earth keir starmer would do about these issues. about any of these issues. >> he wouldn't do anything. he literally anything literally wouldn't do anything but actually but and people actually deep down he's down know that he's not interested in doing anything about it. >> having that, mean, >> having said that, i mean, regardless of whether labour have come up with an alternative or not, and have or not, and they have adopted this of being this kind of policy of being a silent assassin and there's polling or at least the pollster john curtice, who obviously is sort of country renowned for being pretty spot on when it comes to his predictions. he's saying that there could be a complete wipe—out at the next general election for the tories, that it could be the worst election result ever. they could win just 130 seats. trying to remind myself what they won in 97. i think it was 162. so or

worse than 97, 165. i'm told in my ear by my producer. so that could be absolutely catastrophic for them. >> yeah, it could. and to be honest, you know, the writings on the wall. i mean, they squandered a fantastic majority from 2019. totally squandered it. boris completely squandered it. boris completely squandered it for me never to be forgiven for doing that. frankly, i mean, do you believe that prediction ? do you believe that prediction? no. well, i don't i don't tend to believe polls, if i'm honest. and i think polls are, because ultimately, when people get to the to the election box, they're going to always vote with their pockets. that's the way i view it. people get to the election and they're going to say, right, which these parties going which of these parties is going to to actually put more to is going to actually put more money in my pocket. it's going to my family more feel more to make my family more feel more secure. et cetera. et cetera. that's they do. so whatever that's what they do. so whatever people in the people are saying now, in the heat the moment, with all heat of the moment, with all these rails going with all of these rails going on with all of these rails going on with all of these ministers resigning and all the. all of the scandal around the. >> anyone actually paying >> has anyone actually paying much notice to all this? they're

out doing christmas out doing their christmas shopping. doing shopping. they're out doing their they've the their christmas. they've got the overall shambles. overall feeling of shambles. >> absolutely. and they're noticing is. they're trying to everything is. they're trying to heat there's people heat their homes. there's people freezing out there. and actually the this kind of the tories are in this kind of they're fighting amongst they're just fighting amongst themselves. an exchange. >> i mean, this is it was ever thus. prime minister thus. oh, the prime minister can't be too tough with this legislation doesn't legislation because he doesn't want tories on want to alienate the tories on the so—called left of the party. if he keeps the if he's too tough, he keeps the right, he's happy. but they're unhappy. it's like talks unhappy. it's like he talks about this church. i mean, about this broad church. i mean, he's a vicar trying preach to he's a vicar trying to preach to a basically a congregation basically practising religions. practising different religions. >> at the same >> yeah, he is. and at the same time it is pretty time, i mean, it is pretty strange, but it's also there's very been a situation very rarely been a situation where the labour party itself looks so weak. the labour party at the moment has nobody knows what keir starmer stands for. he's not particularly popular. it's brilliant time for the it's a brilliant time for the tories to be attacking labour and saying , well, what would you and saying, well, what would you do about this? what would you do about that? >> you know, take the fight to laboun >> you know, take the fight to labour, take the fight to labour because the because if labour win the

election, forbid, if election, god forbid, but if they do, know what's going to they do, we know what's going to happen. >> everybody's to pile in >> everybody's going to pile in wanting, know, public wanting, you know, the public sector to be masses of money, to be unions. be put into the public unions. no there. no money there. >> left, right and >> the pay rises left, right and centre. exactly. let's talk about you mentioned the b word there. let's about my gb there. let's talk about my gb news colleague, boris johnson, and my other gb news colleague, nigel farage. yes, because there is a story in the mail on sunday suggesting that some tory mps are in a quote, dramatic plot to bnng are in a quote, dramatic plot to bring back boris as the only way to avert this electoral wipe—out and could he be on a dream ticket with nigel? i mean , ticket with nigel? i mean, that's what i'm saying. i find the papers quite extraordinary this morning. are we actually serious? i mean , first of all, serious? i mean, first of all, bnng serious? i mean, first of all, bring back boris. your reaction, martin, why ? martin, why? >> why? >> why? >> i mean, because he's a he's a good campaigner and he can probably win more votes than rishi sunak arguably. >> but what happens when wins >> but what happens when he wins that majority? people have already seen? >> what do you of this >> and what do you make of this whole i don't understand >> and what do you make of this whcrhetoric i don't understand >> and what do you make of this whcrhetoric around understand >> and what do you make of this whcrhetoric around nigel'stand the rhetoric around nigel joining tories. surely

joining the tories. surely nigel, really wants to nigel, if he really wants to pack a political needs to pack a political punch, needs to go back at the helm of reform with apologies to my other gb news colleague richard tice yes he and take on the tories he does. and take on the tories directly . i mean, appreciate directly. i mean, i appreciate the argument that . just the argument about that. just splits vote on right and splits the vote on the right and it to labour. but i'm in it goes to labour. but i'm in opposition. i don't really i don't really know what nigel farage can do in the tory party in opposition really, i suppose. take the fight to labour as you've suggested. i just don't know that whole know how credible that whole plan it's completely plan is. it's it's completely incredible and i don't believe a word of and i don't think word of it, and i don't think it's ever going happen. it's ever going to happen. >> i frankly, you're >> i think, frankly, you're completely right. farage i richard a very man, richard tice is a very nice man, but near as popular but he's nowhere near as popular as farage yeah he as nigel farage is. yeah he needs in the reform party needs farage in the reform party at moment, not in the tories. >> yeah, but the reform party could force to be could be a real force to be reckoned with. >> think it could. >> yes, i think it could. >> yes, i think it could. >> yeah. and i think somebody had once said at hq, you know, if to 10, we are if reform get to 10, we are a word beginning with f and now they're polling around i think word beginning with f and now thor re polling around i think word beginning with f and now thor that>lling around i think word beginning with f and now thor that seems round i think word beginning with f and now thor that seems t0|nd i think word beginning with f and now thor that seems to be i think word beginning with f and now thor that seems to be theink 11 or that seems to be the westminster intention that

people are moving to reform in their let's change their droves. yes. let's change gears and about the royals gears and talk about the royals at now we've had at christmas. now we've had a photograph of the cambridges as they once were known. now the prince princess of wales and prince and princess of wales and their charlotte their three children, charlotte george and louis. a black george and louis. it's a black and white image. it's their christmas shot. they're all in kind matching shirts. it's kind of matching shirts. it's called a christmas cracker on the front of the sunday tail. it's covered in all the papers. but do you of this image? >> i just really don't like it. oh i just think it's completely miserable . i mean, they look miserable. i mean, they look great. they look. they look. >> they look lovely and smiley. >> they look lovely and smiley. >> they're lovely and smiley. i just understand why anyone just don't understand why anyone would put a mono photograph. only people in montecito only those people in montecito would think of putting a black and out at and white photograph out at christmas. think. christmas. i think. >> you are speaking as >> and you are speaking as a former magazine editor because you edit. okay so you you used to edit. okay so you like glossy images? >> i think at christmas people want want, want colour. they want, you know, them in know, do we want them in christmas jumpers? know, do we want them in chrjustas jumpers? know, do we want them in chrjust be umpers? know, do we want them in chrjust be honest,’ know, do we want them in chrjust be honest, i don't >> just be honest, i don't particularly i'm not a big fan of christmas jumpers, right? >> i to see a happy family,

>> i want to see a happy family, but want to see a of but i want to see a bit of brightness and colour. >> so should have done a >> so you should have done a colour, very black white colour, very black and white times at the moment. >> there in the >> you know, out there in the big old to world a certain extent, the royal family have to have understand that they are have to understand that they are part to a certain part of escapism to a certain extent, okay, enough. extent, no? okay, fair enough. >> should >> and i think that should colour please. royals colour images, please. royals colour images, please. royals colour finally, i colour images. yeah. finally, i do to ask you, as a former do want to ask you, as a former national newspaper about do want to ask you, as a former natiistoryiewspaper about do want to ask you, as a former natiistory on spaper about do want to ask you, as a former natiistory on the )er about do want to ask you, as a former natiistory on the front about do want to ask you, as a former natiistory on the front of about do want to ask you, as a former natiistory on the front of the out this story on the front of the sunday telegraph, ex m16 boss warns securing risk abu warns of securing risk in abu dhabi telegraph that's dhabi telegraph bid. that's the richard dearlove saying basically government, basically to the government, you've this. you've got to stop this. briefly. your view on it, briefly. what's your view on it, martin? >> fantastic intervention by dearlove. much, dearlove. this should be a much, much bigger story. this is a huge story for britain at the moment. we allow moment. if we allow now a newspaper be owned by the uae newspaper to be owned by the uae or any other overseas territory with that kind of record on on, you know, the public freedom of speech and expression , then then speech and expression, then then we're totally lost . owners will we're totally lost. owners will always try to influence, always try and influence the paper. i mean, this has been going for on

decades. this is always what happens. decades. this is always what happens . the decades. this is always what happens. the idea that decades. this is always what happens . the idea that they're happens. the idea that they're not going try and influence not going to try and influence the paper is the birds. they the paper is for the birds. they will, we cannot allow that will, and we cannot allow that to happen with a with a to happen with with a with a regime like that. >> say, in defence of >> i should say, in defence of the that's been made by the bid that's been made by redbird insist that redbird emi, they insist that they will adhere to journalistic neutrality and that they won't try and influence the tone of the paper or indeed the story. it should also be pointed out, as we're covering this, that paul marshall, who has a stake in this channel, gb news, is also trying to make a bid for the telegraph. but it's obviously worrying obviously quite worrying times for newspaper which for that newspaper for which i write for as well. indeed. martin townsend, been a pleasure as ever to speak to you this morning. thank you very, very much indeed for your insights. well already built up well as i've already built up nick's, to be speaking nick's, i'm going to be speaking to michael gove, the levelling up to michael gove, the levelling up secretary want to find up secretary i want to find out what thinks about the rwanda what he thinks about the rwanda bill, been, well, bill, which has been, well, heavily robert heavily criticised by robert jenrick, put the legislation jenrick, who put the legislation together. so he must know something but we'll be something about it. but we'll be asking this asking mr gove whether this legislation on legislation can get through on tuesday and indeed whether the

conservatives are facing the electoral wipe—out that sir john curtice predicts all that after the weather. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. >> good morning, welcome to your latest gb news weather. i'm ellie glaisyer low pressure still very much in charge of our weather, bringing some spells of wet and windy conditions moving in from the west . wet and windy conditions moving in from the west. this one in particular spreading its way north eastwards as go north and eastwards as we go through this bring through this morning. this bring you heavy rainfall to you some very heavy rainfall to parts of wales, south—west england then spreading into england, and then spreading into northern england and scotland later. falling on some later. this rain falling on some already very saturated ground . already very saturated ground. so see some localised so we could see some localised flooding through sunday despite that rain though, across northern parts of the uk, there will be some brightness across parts wales southwest parts of wales and southwest england temperatures england where temperatures likely 13 or 14 likely to reach around 13 or 14 degrees. with a strong degrees. but with a strong southwesterly that will southwesterly wind that will take off those take a notch off those temperatures through sunday evening . further rain pushes in

evening. further rain pushes in from the west, particularly across ireland, into across northern ireland, into wales and northern england. as we through the hours we head through the early hours of morning. again this of monday morning. again this rain on that very rain falling on that very saturated ground . so saturated ground. so some localised possible . localised flooding possible. there will some clear skies there will be some clear skies around, across the around, particularly across the southern uk where southern half of the uk where temperatures around 7 or 8 degrees. but under all that cloud temperatures cloud and rain, temperatures dropping 4 degrees. dropping around 2 to 4 degrees. here a cloudy start for many here is a cloudy start for many of us. on monday and quite a wet start across parts of scotland, too. continues to push in too. rain continues to push in from the east, perhaps turning wintry over hills of wintry over any hills of scotland. but the best of the sunshine on monday, definitely across wales across parts of wales and southern temperatures southern england. temperatures here above average here a little bit above average for the of year, around for the time of year, around 10 to degrees. across parts to 12 degrees. but across parts of generally around of scotland, generally around average in the mid to low single figures as it looks like things are heating up. >> boxt boilers sponsors of weather on . gb news welcome back weather on. gb news welcome back to the camilla tominey show.

>> we're just waiting for michael gove, the levelling up secretary, ready to speak secretary, to be ready to speak to before we that, i'm to me before we do that, i'm going bring martin townsend going to bring martin townsend back into the conversation. i mean , we were talking earlier, mean, we were talking earlier, martin, that the martin, about the idea that the electorate really electorate isn't really listening of kind of listening to any of this kind of noise in general. noise around rwanda in general. what's your evaluation of rishi sunak premiership far? i mean sunak premiership so far? i mean , sunak premiership so far? i mean i , sunak premiership so far? i mean , i know you were disappointed because you voted earlier the because you voted earlier on the sofa boris johnson's sofa about boris johnson's squandering this golden opportunity basically for the tory party to try and change things and try and make britain better post brexit. i mean rishi sunak steadied the ship, but that lack of kind of charisma, character and maybe a degree of courage is proving to be his undoing . undoing. >> to a certain extent it is, but i think to be honest, rishi sunak has done a brilliant job in steadying the ship. yeah i think that there's the i'm going to leave it there , martin, to leave it there, martin, because michael gove is now ready. >> sorry to interrupt you, mr gove.i >> sorry to interrupt you, mr gove. i hope you can hear me. thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning. lovely

to speak to you. let's talk about the let's talk about the rwanda plan. i'm sure you're expecting a question or two on it. we've quite the it. we've had quite the headunes it. we've had quite the headlines morning, mr gove. headlines this morning, mr gove. we've professor john curtice we've got professor john curtice predicting tories are predicting that the tories are going to be wiped out at the next general election. they may be 130 we've be reduced to 130 seats. we've got talk the mail on sunday, got talk in the mail on sunday, would believe, of boris would you believe, of a boris johnson comeback and a dream ticket with nigel farage? we've got robert jenrick having said this morning that he thinks that the government's plan is the government's rwanda plan is simply show and not simply for show and not for real, that won't do anything real, that it won't do anything to individual appeals as to block individual appeals as it's dark days for the tory party and your government, isn't it? mr gove nothing's going to plan on. >> well, there's certainly a lot in the sunday newspapers and martin, i think, was reviewing them with consummate skill earlier. but my role as a minister is not to provide further political commentary, is to get on with the job and the rwanda legislation that you mentioned is very important . mentioned is very important. it's a robust bill which will

ensure that we can deport people to rwanda because it's a safe third country, and that will be inordinately helpful in making sure that we can safeguard our borders and deliver the migration policy that the country wants to see. >> but it is problematic, isn't it, that of course there is legal disagreement on this. and while appreciate lawyers while i appreciate that lawyers are disagree and are paid to disagree and disagree on one hand, disagree heavily, on one hand, you've the of lord you've got the likes of lord sumption saying they're happy with the legislation. on the other, the other, you've got the star chamber lawyers chamber of government lawyers saying lawyers and indeed the saying of lawyers and indeed the government's own lawyer, james eadie, that they're only eadie, saying that they're only half convinced that the legislation is actually going to be robust enough. james eadie, who's the most senior government legal counsel, says there's a 50% chance that the european court in strasbourg will still interfere and issue an interim judgement injunction to stop any flights to rwanda for. so this kind of summarise is the problem, doesn't it? there's always going to be lawyers that are able to argue against this plan and if the legislation isn't full fat , if it is weak as

isn't full fat, if it is weak as robert jenrick has said, i mean, he's resigned on the issue, then it isn't fit for purpose . it isn't fit for purpose. >> this legislation is absolutely robust . there are all absolutely robust. there are all sorts of milk metaphors out there. this is jersey gold top legislation because it is very clear that the basis on which people resisted being sent to rwanda in the past, the justifications that were used then will no longer apply. and i think the legal consensus is particularly from people who have themselves sat on the supreme court, like jonathan sumption , that this legislation sumption, that this legislation will ensure that there will only be a vanishingly small number of cases for individuals being able to resist being deported. okay >> so if you think it's robust and that it's jersey gold top, can you give us a guarantee then that the european court in strasbourg will not be able to issue an interim injunction to stop flights to rwanda? if you think it's robust enough, you

must be able to give us that guarantee here. now, a gold top guarantee here. now, a gold top guarantee from you, mr gove . guarantee from you, mr gove. >> it is clear that ministers will reserve the right to decide if there are these injunctions from the european court how to respond . and we are making it respond. and we are making it very clear in domestic legislation that parliament's priority is to ensure that deportations can proceed. and it's important to recognise that the only way in which a deportation could not proceed is if someone was in imminent risk of serious and erevan possible harm as a result of this deportation . that is a very high deportation. that is a very high bar . i think deportation. that is a very high bar. i think every lawyer would agree . agree. >> but at the same time , what >> but at the same time, what this doesn't do is block those individual appeals. this doesn't do is block those individual appeals . so that was individual appeals. so that was robert jenrick's whole problem , robert jenrick's whole problem, wasn't it? he resigned last week because he said, what's the point in this if we still have this legal marriage around continuing ad infinitum? and unfortunately , i'm hearing that

unfortunately, i'm hearing that you're saying the legislation is robust, but you can't rule out these individual appeals either. >> it may well be the case that any individual says that they should not be deported. but first of all, they have to produce evidence and then it will decision for will be the decision for a minister, not for the courts, to decide whether or not that evidence is appropriate. and so it very, very clear that this it is very, very clear that this legislation will empower ministers to ensure that people can be deported. and it sends a very clear message to the courts if passed , that parliament wants if passed, that parliament wants to see some of the process that we've had and almost all of the objections that we've had swept away back in 2015, you were the one who led the charge as justice secretary to scrap the human rights act and replace it with a bill of rights. >> i mean, you've not ruled out leaving the echr . what's your leaving the echr. what's your position on all that now ? position on all that now? because arguably, had you scrapped the hra and replaced it

with a bill of rights, you might not be in this mess ? not be in this mess? >> well, it was the case at the time that i and my colleague dominic raab was seeking to update and modernise our human rights architecture for and to make our human rights architecture more robust . it was architecture more robust. it was as a result of that our intention to stay within the european convention on human rights. but the prime minister has made clear that we will do whatever it takes in order to ensure that we can get people who need to be deported from our shores, deported this legislation it takes legislation does what it takes and it keeps us within the boundanes and it keeps us within the boundaries of international law as well. if it doesn't , don't do as well. if it doesn't, don't do what you want it to do. >> when you say that you will do anything that it takes, what does that actually mean? mr gove what else would you do? >> well , i what else would you do? >> well, i think i think this bill is enough. i think what if it is a very robust piece of legislation? well, again, i think it's important want to make sure that people understand

what's in this bill. so i think close scrutiny and appropriate interrogation of the bill shows that, for example, there are significant sections of the human rights act, significant aspects of the way in which the echr operates, which are disapply died in this legislation , and parliament is legislation, and parliament is clear. parliament if the bill is passed, parliament is also clear that there are a number of conventions, some pretty, you know , robust conventions on, for know, robust conventions on, for example , human trafficking and example, human trafficking and on on the resettlement of individuals which are completely put to one side as a result of this legislation. and i think it's important that that people have a chance to read the black and white of the bill and to form their own judgement on that. >> you know, that people won't do that. they'll just an do that. they'll just get an impression of the bill and its efficacy if it actually works. and they flights take off to and they see flights take off to rwanda. talk another

rwanda. let's talk about another piece legislation that you've piece of legislation that you've been the leasehold been involved in. the leasehold reform gove go on. >> mr gove oh, go on. >> are you going that >> are you going to say that flights are going to take off when going take off when you're going to take off when you're going to take off when just going to say when no, i'm just going to say that hope that people read that i do hope that people read the legislation because it is important. >> but you're absolutely right. the important thing is the most important thing is making flights do take making sure that flights do take off. they will. okay >> if people read the >> if people do read the leasehold reform bill, your bill had to abolish had promised to abolish the feudal system, it feudal leasehold system, but it doesn't actually abolish leaseholds. the leaseholds. what happened to the . bill >> we make sure that leasehold effectively becomes a redundant form of property ownership in the way in which we've seen it in the past, and we empower people to take control of their own properties . so anyone who's own properties. so anyone who's in a leasehold flat will know that as the lease, the term that covers their ownership of the flat winds down. so the value of their home reduces, but we're altering that. >> so we've had to add an amendment bill form can transform. >> yeah , the bill will be

>> yeah, the bill will be amended in to order ensure that we strip often the freedoms that we're giving to people. but the essential part of the bill, everyone listening or watching who's a leaseholder should know, is that they can take full control can control of their flat. they can go for a 990 year lease. they can make sure that the negotiation is straightforward and full value and they can get the full value of their property. and you can tell from some of the objections that are being made by the freeholders , i.e. by the freeholders, i.e. by the property barons , that that they property barons, that that they will be losing out because india leaseholders are going to be enfranchised and empowered. you can tell from their concern or opposition that this is actually a way of making sure that people who are leaseholders get full control of their flats . control of their flats. >> let's talk about housing. mr gove , because we have that gove, because we have that historically high legal migration figure 745,000. we heard from home secretary james cleverly in the week that he wants to reduce that by at least 300,000. that then leaves the

potential for 450,000 people to come to britain every year. that as far as i can tell, is the population of leeds. therefore, we would have to be building at least 500,000 dwellings a year to keep up with migration, let alone to keep up with the population in this country in the first place. so the bottom line is here, you built 204,530 new dwellings in the year ending march 2022. you're nowhere near building enough houses. >> well, we do need to build more homes. and yes, we do need to bring migration down. i think the measures that you referenced that james introduced earlier this week will bring figures down and will bring figures down to levels that people would consider appropriate for consider to be appropriate for our economy. of course, we our economy. but of course, we do need to build more homes. and that's this week we that's why later this week we should be publishing new planning rules which ensure that we get more of the right we can get more of the right homes in the right places. i can things in the right places. let me put this back that back in so

you hear me. you can hear me. >> that. but then can you >> i get that. but then can you hear me? mr gove? there we are. >> one last question for you. sorry. >> yes. good man. thank you. one last question, though, very, very quickly. you're going to have a position from the have a position again from the likes of theresa villiers and others that been quite others that have been quite nimby colleagues nimby ist. do these colleagues have nimby, not have to start being nimby, not nimby? briefly, mr gove i'm nimby? very briefly, mr gove i'm all conservative colleagues are absolutely committed to making sure we have more of the right homes in the right places. >> they like me, want to make sure that we protect our environment, sure that we protect our environment , protect sure that we protect our environment, protect our green belt, the right belt, but also have the right sort densification in sort of densification in particular of our cities particular parts of our cities in order to drive new homes for the next generation. >> mr gove thank very much >> mr gove thank you very much indeed joining this indeed for joining me this morning. up we're morning. and up next, we're going to iain going to be speaking to iain duncan i'm also going to duncan smith. i'm also going to be discussing mcshane's be discussing denis mcshane's new labour. but new book about new labour. but before then, here's a news headunes

welcome back to the camilla tominey show. much more to come in the next hour. i'm going to be speaking to tory grandee iain duncan smith, who'll be giving me his thoughts on the new rwanda robert jenrick rwanda bill and robert jenrick resignation. also be resignation. ann, i'll also be joined labour veteran joined by the labour veteran lord foulkes. that lord george foulkes. all that and after the news with and more after the news with tatiana sanchez . tatiana sanchez. >> camilla, thank you very much

and good morning. this is the latest from the newsroom. the prime minister is facing a fresh blow by members of his own party who say his rwanda bill is not fit for purpose. writing in the sunday telegraph, sir bill cash , sunday telegraph, sir bill cash, who's chaired legal who's chaired a legal examination on the policy, says the bill is not sufficiently watertight , the bill is not sufficiently watertight, meaning illegal migrants could begin prolonged legal challenges in an attempt to stay in the uk. legal challenges in an attempt to stay in the uk . tories from to stay in the uk. tories from both the right and the left had been the findings with been weighting the findings with mps set to vote on the rwanda bill tuesday, levelling up. bill this tuesday, levelling up. secretary michael gove told camilla tominey the legislation is absolutely robust . is absolutely robust. >> there are all sorts of milk metaphors out there. this is jersey gold top legislation because it is very clear that the basis on which people resisted being sent to rwanda in the past, the justifications that were used then will no longer apply. and i think the legal consensus is particularly from people who have themselves sat on the supreme court , like sat on the supreme court, like jonathan sumption , that this

jonathan sumption, that this legislation will ensure that there will only be a vanishingly small number of cases for individuals being able to resist being deported . being deported. >> the labour leader will warn the prime minister's party can no longer govern the country because warring camps are fighting like rats in a sack. in a speech on the same day as the scheduled vote on the government's rwanda policy, he'll claim it's labour that shares britain's values. he'll claim it's labour that shares britain's values . shadow shares britain's values. shadow work and pensions secretary liz kendall told broadcasters this morning labour would scrap the rwanda plan in favour of a new scheme , including elite cross scheme, including an elite cross border force to stop illegal migration. despite the pressures of over the £290 million policy that's been marred by legal challenges, the prime minister called on labour to rise above political games and back his emergency legislation on. the mayor of london says the met police is chronically under funded. in a letter to the home secretary, sadiq khan says london faces unique pressures as

a capital city and urges the home office to boost the force's finance forces. he says the underfunding is highlighted by the challenge of policing the protests over the conflict in gaza and israel. mr khan warns the funding gap could now be as high as £240 million a and more heavy rain is expected as the second named storm of the week end is set to sweep across the uk . heavy rain end is set to sweep across the uk. heavy rain is end is set to sweep across the uk . heavy rain is expected this uk. heavy rain is expected this evening as a storm fergus sweeps eastwards , bringing 20 to eastwards, bringing 20 to 30,000,000l of rain with it along with a risk of hail and thunder. gus will hit south wales and areas around the bristol channel the hardest . bristol channel the hardest. you're with gb news across the uk on tv, in your car, on your digital radio and now on your smart speaker. by saying play gb news now back to . camilla news now back to. camilla >> thank you, tatiana . welcome

>> thank you, tatiana. welcome back to the camilla tominey show. still lots more to come. in just a minute. i'm going to be joined by labour peer be joined by the labour peer george sir ian george foulkes. sir ian duncan—smith going to duncan—smith is going to be discussing with tory discussing rwanda with me, tory mp will be mp dr. luke evans will be speaking me after a victory speaking to me after a victory for buy campaign and for his buy british campaign and gb favourite former labour gb news favourite former labour mp denis macshane will be discussing his new book. he'll run through his diaries run us through his diaries between 1997 and 2001, i'm joined now by labour peer lord george foulkes, labour mp . george foulkes, labour mp. between 1979 and 2005, served as minister of state for scotland. lord foulkes, lovely to see you this morning. thank you very much for joining this morning. thank you very much forjoining me. now, i know you're opposed to the government's lovely you. government's lovely to see you. i know opposed to the i know you're opposed to the government's plan. but government's rwanda plan. but the on everyone's the big question on everyone's lips what should starmer lips is what should keir starmer propose alternative to propose as an alternative to stop the boats? well i think you've already heard in the news that liz kendall has repeated what has been suggested by yvette cooper that we have an elite task force working with other countries .

other countries. >> and of course , this is the >> and of course, this is the third bill that we've had from or two acts. and now a bill from the conservatives. each one supposedly going to solve the problem. and neither has solved the problem previously. and this oneisnt the problem previously. and this one isn't either. i mean, it is a ridiculous bill. it's a post robert jenrick who was the immigration minister? suppose pushing this through, has resigned . sir bill cash and his resigned. sir bill cash and his group of lawyers has said it isn't going to work. no one thinks, no one sensible and who understands this issue think it's going to work? yes >> i mean, but is that it from laboun >> i mean, but is that it from labour, an elite task force? i mean, there are already people working from britain with the french on this. we're talking about trying to smash an international criminal network of people who are operating across borders . how on earth is across borders. how on earth is elite task force going to be able to stop 45,000 people from coming here illegally last year?

well we have to work across borders as well. >> but how is the tory? the tories are in power. >> but how is the tory? the tories are in power . they've tories are in power. they've beenin tories are in power. they've been in power for 13 years and the illegal as well as the illegal immigration has gone up and up and up in spite of them saying we now have control of our borders, we're no longer members the european union, members of the european union, we can do what we want. and yet they haven't been able to kerb either legal or illegal immigration. and this crazy bill is the worst of all. i mean, they're trying to legislate in a united kingdom bill that at rwanda is safe and that just can't be done. it is crazy. absolutely crazy . absolutely crazy. >> i mean, rwanda itself, if and president kagame will say that it is safe and that it's certainly a lot safer than it was. but you have concerns about rwanda in 2023. do you ? rwanda in 2023. do you? >> yes. and the supreme court had concerns about it. and that's why they expressed their concerns about the previous

legislation and the government is now scrambling to legislate late and say, how can we legislate to say that any other country is safe? yes. the other thing the other thing that we should be doing, camilla, is that if we want to stop the economic migrants coming to the united kingdom, we want to build up the countries that they're leaving . and yet we've cut down leaving. and yet we've cut down our overseas development spending from 0.7% to 0.5. and most of that is being spent looking after people here in the united kingdom that come from those countries. having said money and having said that, lord foulkes, have you have you got many labour voters, particularly in red wall areas, clamouring for the foreign aid bill to be increased at a time of a cost of living crisis ? living crisis? >> nobody's asking for that, are they? >> well, they'd rather, i think, money being spent in the countries than in the united kingdom in hotels, £8 million a day to put up people who have

come here. it would be cheaper to keep them in their own countries, creating new employment and employment that will keep them there . and will will keep them there. and will things that we might purchase from them . that's sensible, but from them. that's sensible, but we should be doing. >> isn't it fair, though , for >> isn't it fair, though, for people listening and watching this to think to themselves? well, hang on a minute, labour haven't really got a leg to stand on when it comes to talking about immigration on legal or illegal, because under tony blair, particularly , we the tony blair, particularly, we the numbers of people coming into the rose exponentially . the country rose exponentially. we labour's never had a problem with immigration. it's actively encouraged it. in fact some people might look back to the new labour administration and say that that's when the problem started in the first place. we've now i believe, we've now got, i believe, 9 million more people here than when tony blair rose to power. labour must take responsibility for that. surely >> i know that camilla, i understand that your agenda and the agenda, but gb news agenda.

but the tories have been in power for 30 years, they said. now when we leave the european union we have control of our own borders and nothing has happened. it's got worse and worse and worse. so don't go back to what tony blair was in power. let's talk about the last 13 years in particular about the last few years when the tories have promised again and again and again that they are the party to deal with it. and if you look at the public opinion polls, you'll find that labour is ahead on every issue, including immigration. the british people realise that the tories have been a total failure. i mean look, now we've got a minister who was got a prime minister who was beaten by liz truss, even in an election to be he is completely incompetent . soon, sooner. we incompetent. soon, sooner. we have a general election , the have a general election, the better. the sooner we have a to better. the sooner we have a to be fair. >> lord, lord foulkes, i'm not sure anybody in the labour party can talk about the appropriateness of leaders. when jeremy corbyn was at the helm for four years. but i digress.

when it comes sorry to this immigration issue , i'm not immigration issue, i'm not pushing an agenda. i'm not pushing an agenda. i'm not pushing an agenda . but i'm just pushing an agenda. but i'm just saying it's difficult for people to an agenda. >> we all we all know that you and camilla and news are and camilla and gb news are pushing agenda . and what you pushing an agenda. and what you need do look at the need to do is look at the current situation, at what current situation, look at what the tories are up to. they've beenin the tories are up to. they've been in power for 13 years and it's about time you and it's about time that you and other realise that and other people realise that and started challenging what they're doing of back to a doing instead of going back to a generations ago. >> lord foulkes if i may, every government minister that comes on this show gets a very robust response from me on the failings of 13 years of tory rule. we just had a newspaper review which was extremely critical of the government. my point really on immigration is can labour really be trusted when it says it wants to bring the numbers down, both legal and illegal, when under the last labour administration the numbers went up exponentially? that's not an agenda setting question, it's just an honest question based on

fact. well it didn't go up exponentially. >> your mathematics isn't all that good at the position was that good at the position was that people who in areas where we needed support , i mean, i was we needed support, i mean, i was treated in hospital recently and most of the people who helped me are people who looked after me are people who looked after me are people who came in from overseas as our health service would be in real trouble if it hadnt would be in real trouble if it hadn't been for doctors, for nurses and for other people coming in. a whole range of our services, our care homes would be in difficulties without these people. we totally agree with you . you. >> i totally agree with you. i'm i'm well, i'm merely saying that immigration went up under laboun immigration went up under labour. i mean, no, i'm not a mathematician. i'm a journalist. lord foulkes so that makes me functionally innumerate, i can assure you. but at the same time, immigration went up under laboun time, immigration went up under labour. that's the fact that i'm saying that the surgeon who treated me the nurse who looked

after me, there were people who came in from other countries. >> thank goodness they were there look after me. and now there to look after me. and now we need to train more nurses. more doctors. okay we relied on many of these people coming in for and we still have to for years, and we still have to take of that. take account of that. >> all right. lord foulkes, thank you. >> is the uncontrolled economic migration and that can be helped by building up these other countries, the economy of these other countries. >> lord foulkes , thank you very >> lord foulkes, thank you very much indeed. you've given us a robust view on labour's position . just for clarification with regard whether an regard to whether it's an exponential rise or not. from 1997 to 2010, immigration quadrupled. i mean, again, i'm no mathematician, but at the same time, that does seem like an exponential rise to me anyway. do not move a muscle because in a minute i'm going to because in a minute i'm going to be joined by former tory leader sir iain duncan smith. is he planning to rebel against the government tuesday? government on tuesday? we'll find a jiffy

channel? britain's news channel. welcome back to the camilla tominey show on this cold and windy sunday morning. don't go anywhere, because joining me in the studio is sir iain duncan smith, tory mp for chingford and woodford green, former conservative leader and conservative party leader and co—founder of and director of the centre for social justice, think tank , which is what you're think tank, which is what you're in to talk to me about. first of all, sir iain, lovely to see you this morning. thank you. now this morning. thank you. now this report, this seminal report

that released called that the csj has released called two nations is on the front page of the sunday times. it's on the front sunday front page of the sunday telegraph. got great telegraph. it's got great coverage. the headlines, though, are covid turned uk are very stark. covid turned uk social into a chasm, says social divide into a chasm, says the sunday times. the telegraph headuneis the sunday times. the telegraph headline is lockdown had catastrophic effect on poverty gap - catastrophic effect on poverty gap . so what does this report gap. so what does this report tell us about britain, sir ian? >> well, what it is very clear aboutis >> well, what it is very clear about is that the problems that have existed for a long time, um, which may even begun to be put right before covid, but there are big gaps in society. you know, the poorest in society have than 2 or 3 deciles whose work is non—progressive quite often who now feel it's better to be on welfare than it is to be back in work. huge increases in sickness benefit claims and yet in those claims, 700,000 people a recent study, we did people in a recent study, we did want to go back to work, but they're fearful about how they get back to work. so there's been big divide. but then been a big divide. but then covid hit this is the big covid hit and this is the big

point about the report, which is, as i say, done by independent like martin independent people like martin ivens, governor of ivens, even the ex governor of the england, mervyn the bank of england, mervyn king, even the great king, and even the great manchester mayor, andy burnham. so it's cross cross party spectrum . and what this tells us spectrum. and what this tells us is that nobody thought about what happen when you try what would happen when you try and shut an economy down, blanket shut down about those who can't be shut down. so if you're, for example, a single mother living in a 12th story of a tower block with two kids, you have to go to work often to do the books at amazon that the middle classes were then reading happily in their gardens. they had to go to work. but the mayor shut the tubes down to a degree, so they were packed? yes. and their kids were now off school. the group least likely the group that was least likely to catch covid were being locked out school. so now that out of school. so now that mother to juggle the mother is having to juggle the idea her kids are at school without the right facility to go onune without the right facility to go online to go work to online and has to go to work to earn an no wonder. earn an income, no wonder. then eventually bails out. there eventually she bails out. there are big mental health problems for and that's growing

for the kids and that's growing exponentially. yes, to use a word, exactly right. but in the schools and then following that, we've now got huge increase in ghost children. that is children that never came back to school. after the lockdown, the government's trying to do stuff about it. but the lockdown literally drove them out of their schools. and these are the kids in the poorest environment. they need the education. that's the best way out poverty. but the best way out of poverty. but they're they're going they're not. they're going into street . big problems. this street gangs. big problems. this report in specific terms, shows all these features increase all of these features increase dramatically coming through the lockdowns . and the question, you lockdowns. and the question, you know, it's a very good report because it gives an idea and we're going to put policy forward. but the second part of it what in heaven's name is it is what in heaven's name is this inquiry doing at the moment? that's right. this is the that we should really the issue that we should really be with. did anybody be dealing with. did anybody think, seriously, what are the scientists had scientists that told us we had to a blanket of dodgy to lock down a blanket of dodgy forecasts but all wrong? forecasts, but we're all wrong? yeah, panicked . i can yeah, we panicked. i can understand right at the beginning, but two more lockdowns and schools was

lockdowns and the schools was a disaster this country and we disaster for this country and we are still picking up the pieces. it's divided society. dramatic folly. that's what the report says. folly. that's what the report says . yes. and now the big focus says. yes. and now the big focus has to be how you put that, right. >> i mean, the report is discovering things that the covid inquiry should look at. instead, the covid inquiry seems to be concerned with what dominic cummings matt dominic cummings said to matt hancock boris johnson hancock and what boris johnson thought about is covid thought about it is the covid inquiry and it's current form fit for purpose . fit for purpose. >> i'm astonished you >> well, i'm astonished you know, what's been going on for a year and a half with this inquiry, i must say, because all along the csj we've been asking this question, what about out the in society who asked the poorest in society who asked about them? who's looking at what they're doing? which is why this report has produced. this report has been produced. we're come forward with we're going to come forward with what has to be done, because things do have to be done. but lots stuff happened in in lots of stuff happened in the in the and can the period. and i'm can understand been understand that we've never been in situation before. huge in this situation before. huge pressures. we to pressures. but once we began to understand who this affected, it didn't affect young people. it didn't affect young people. it didn't affect young people. it didn't affect children. it was

about co—morbid diseases and older well then you set older people. well then you set your policy accordingly to deal with what we carried on with that. what we carried on doing these blanket doing was these blanket lockdowns under punishing lockdowns under the punishing direction from many of the scientists who consider this is absolutely the case. we had to do it. hospitals were half empty , by the way. people having cancer treatment couldn't get into hospitals, there into the hospitals, yet there were empty there because were empty beds there because they worried about covid. they were worried about covid. that's inquiry. so that's all things inquiry. so this carried this inquiry that we've carried through is all about what went wrong and how bad is it now in society. and it is definitely very divided. >> before we get on to the government and indeed the tory party's problems. one last question on that, because there's stark line the there's a stark line in the report. it's 300 pages long. i do recommend people look at it because it's so comprehensive. it's what the inquiry should be doing and isn't doing. but there's a line in there about britain is sick, but being sick pays and you were the one, you were the architect of universal credit as the secretary of state for department work for the department for work and pensions. depress you to pensions. it must depress you to

find in your own think tanks report idea that people are report this idea that people are feeling better off on welfare than in work. we know that there are some people who simply cannot work. are either cannot work. they are either disabled, have got disabled, they have got circumstances beyond their control . they might be caring control. they might be caring for an ill child , an ill parent for an ill child, an ill parent and all the of it, but this and all the rest of it, but this statistic of people who could work choose not to must work but choose not to must depress you. >> particularly it does universal credit. it's done a huge amount to get people back to work and was working huge amount to get people back to wori really was working huge amount to get people back to wori really well; working huge amount to get people back to wori really well .working huge amount to get people back to wori really well . we king huge amount to get people back to wori really well . we ran to really, really well. we ran to covid. the problem is, once you take off all the restrictions, all the conditionality, etcetera, happened then, etcetera, which happened then, then will drift as then people will will drift as they did towards those elements . they did towards those elements. one of the biggest problems they've of course, most they've got, of course, is most of sickness benefits of the sickness benefits elements universal elements are not in universal credit so many of the long term sick are still outside of sick are still now outside of any of that support or assistance that would come if they were in universal credit. the part about is on the second part about this is on the front. the the disability front. the government actually had got a good record, more people work good record, more people in work who disabilities . but good record, more people in work who disabilities. but one of

who had disabilities. but one of the polls that we did in run to this was to show ask the question how many those were question how many of those were on benefit actually on sickness benefit actually genuinely work. it's genuinely want to work. it's over 700,000 would want over 700,000 said we would want to work but were scared stiff about how it goes about whether or we prosecuted. what or not we get prosecuted. what happens next. so the complexity has also now trapped them. we want them out of that and all of that sickness benefit should be in credit, right now. in universal credit, right now. it should there shouldn't be people languishing the people languishing outside the support you can support and help that you can get get them back to work, to get to get them back to work, to deal with their conditions, to help treatment help get the remedial treatment that that is that is necessary, that is critical and that has to be done. >> so you're going to be making policy recommendations to the government, which hopefully they will to on the back of will listen to on the back of this let's just talk this report. let's just talk about can we about the rwanda plan. can we because linked to because you've been linked to this star chamber of lawyers, your colleague the house, sir your colleague in the house, sir bill those people bill cash, is among those people saying that they don't think this robust this legislation is robust enough michael gove enough. we've had michael gove on with me morning saying on with me this morning saying that is gold top jersey milk that it is gold top jersey milk proof legislation. that's how robust he thinks it is. he

thinks it's the top level bill that won't sort of let through any seepage. so to speak. what's your view and how are you going to vote on tuesday? >> well, i've said all along, i just wait to see what the lawyers come up with in terms of how they interpret this. i mean, i it's not it's not i think that it's not it's not foolproof. i don't know foolproof. well, i don't know because my view at the moment is there bits in it. and there are good bits in it. and there are good bits in it. and the has moved long the government has moved a long way head off what i way to try and head off what i call vexatious constant court cases. there's good stuff in cases. so there's good stuff in it it's good attempt to do it and it's a good attempt to do this. the question is whether on the that the the margins is that brings the exact results or unexpected consequences. so i've held exact results or unexpected con own ences. so i've held exact results or unexpected con own .1ces. so i've held my own. >> so you can't tell me today that you're going to vote with me because i said i want to see what the final report of these lawyers is , people i respect, by lawyers is, people i respect, by the way, like martin howe and bill cash on constitutional work the way, like martin howe and bill european onstitutional work the way, like martin howe and bill european work:utional work the way, like martin howe and bill european work .tional work and european work. >> the key question is, have we done enough? now lord sumption thinks that they have. so it'll be interesting to see what the juxtaposition of that with the law is. so most

law assumptions is. and so most of my colleagues are constantly not for me to tell them what to do. i just simply recommend and don't leap before you see exactly what it in front. exactly what it is in front. >> that sounds to you >> that sounds to me that you might be veering towards abstention if you're not happy rather rebellion mean, abstention if you're not happy rathgovernmentllion mean, abstention if you're not happy rathgovernmentison mean, abstention if you're not happy rathgovernment is on mean, abstention if you're not happy rath government is on the|ean, abstention if you're not happy rath government is on the ropes. the government is on the ropes. it's be helpful it's not going to be helpful for people like you, senior politicians the party, a politicians in the party, a former to rebel on this former leader to rebel on this is it? >> yeah, couldn't % couldn't more, >> yeah, i couldn't agree more, which i'm keeping my which is why i'm keeping my counsel on this. and my view is you can't always have perfection . question is, have you . but the question is, have you gone sure gone far enough to make sure that essentially able to that essentially you're able to do public wants, which do what the public wants, which is to get these flights off the ground? yes rwanda. that's ground? yes to rwanda. that's the key test with people on it. that dissent disincentivizes those who are paying huge sums of money. >> and do you think you're going to see a flight depart from this country to rwanda between now and the general election? and the next general election? >> think we have to . >> i think we have to. >> i think we have to. >> but you think it's credible? >> i think it is wholly feasible for that chennai six opinion seems to be, you know, they're doing this all for show and

they're not really being real about it. >> it's kind of >> and it's kind of electioneering rather than actually difference. i general view to >> i my general view to everybody of my colleagues is speak carry a big speak softly and carry a big stick. truth is we do a lot stick. the truth is we do a lot of shouting at the moment and i wish stop shouting and just wish we'd stop shouting and just literally these things wish we'd stop shouting and just litiaally these things wish we'd stop shouting and just litia reasonable these things wish we'd stop shouting and just litia reasonable way.e things wish we'd stop shouting and just litia reasonable way because at in a reasonable way because at the end it all, we have one the end of it all, we have one purpose, all of us, which is we want get flights off want to get these flights off because will discourage because they will discourage those huge and those paying huge monies and being likely to die being literally likely to die out channel. that has to out in the channel. that has to stop . yes, it'd be really good stop. yes, it'd be really good if we made sure that far as if we made sure that as far as we possibly can, that is achievable. that surely the achievable. that is surely the only that matters. only thing that matters. >> you've fight on >> i know you've got a fight on your for chingford and your hands for chingford and woodford green because you're on a 1200 seat majority, is a 1200 seat majority, which is obviously you've obviously quite slim. you've also to your party. the also got to your party. the threat reform. just briefly threat from reform. just briefly , nigel farage currently in the jungle. people need to vote for him to be crowned king of the jungle tonight. that jungle tonight. is that a credible threat, do you think, to the conservative party? the idea of nigel farage getting back involved at the helm of

reform and taking the tories on? >> well, you never know what nigel going to next. one nigel is going to do next. one moment he's doing gb news the next getting covered next minute he's getting covered in and various other in insects and various other things in the jungle. general in insects and various other thingsisi the jungle. general in insects and various other thingsis that jungle. general in insects and various other thingsis that we gle. general in insects and various other thingsis that we as. general sense is that we as a conservative party have to deal with threats from whatever flanks they come from by being properly conservative and delivering on what we said we would do at the last election. we said we would get us out of europe. we did. we said we would get start to pull back on migration, which we must do. i think we will begin to and we did say rishi sunak said he would stop the boats. so if you make a pledge like that, you have on it. it's as have to deliver on it. it's as simple and i believe if simple as that. and i believe if we get these things clear, we are of government and i are a party of government and i think reform is a protest party. you can't govern out of protest. but what you can do is make sure you deal with that protest by getting the policy right, which is critical about this rwanda boats thing. >> you ever go the >> would you ever go into the jungle, sir ian i've been in the jungle, sir ian i've been in the jungle now years.

jungle now for 32 years. >> it's called parliament. and frankly, worse any frankly, that is worse than any insect can possibly insect bites you can possibly have. tell you what a have. let me tell you what a great final answer, sir. >> iain duncan smith, thank you very indeed coming very much indeed for coming in and me. you want to and joining me. if you want to have a look at that report, it's on the centre for social justice website. check it out. website. so do check it out. let's michael portillo let's speak to michael portillo now, listening to now, who's been listening in to this what i'm this intently. what i'm interested regard to interested in with regard to nigel jungle and by the nigel in the jungle and by the way, don't forget that there is that qr code popping up on the screen we are broadcast this screen as we are broadcast this morning you to morning to encourage you to vote. use all of vote. and you can use all of your five votes make sure your five votes to make sure that nigel farage is crowned king the jungle i ask king of the jungle later, i ask you you have made the you because you have made the segway successfully segway very successfully from politics and politics to television and obviously yourself to obviously opened yourself up to a much audience with all a much wider audience with all of programming that you've of the programming that you've done michael, does of the programming that you've dcmake michael, does of the programming that you've dcmake a michael, does of the programming that you've dcmake a differencechael, does of the programming that you've dcmake a difference to ael, does of the programming that you've dcmake a difference to nigel es it make a difference to nigel farage's political standing for him to do well in a reality show? does it translate? is he a more credible threat to the conservatives now after this experience in this reality show , experience in this reality show, do you think? i think up to a

point, but more importantly, i think is the context of what has happened while he's been in the jungle. >> i think we've just passed through a really important week in because the in british politics because the disagreement between robert jenrick and the prime minister illustrates that at least jenrick and by the way, suella braverman and others think that there is more that can be done on immigration than is being put forward in this bill. the labour party , of course, doesn't want party, of course, doesn't want to do anything about rwanda at all. no. so the british public sees that the labour party wants to do nothing and many people in the conservative party think that it's doing all that it that it's not doing all that it can. that to me provides the condition in which reform does very well. i think reform will now begin to take off. i think many tories will take this as evidence that their own party is not doing what they wish it to do and we can now see the salience of the immigration issue. it ranks above the cost of living in polls . people want of living in polls. people want something to be done . and we can something to be done. and we can also see from the polls that

people do not believe that this policy is going be effective. policy is going to be effective. so will come out the so nigel will come out of the jungle in a situation where reform is going to do great damage to the conservative party and provide him with a and will provide him with a great platform on the other hand, of course, if nigel goes with the reform and reform does do great damage to the conservative conservative party, as think it will, that cuts as i think it will, that cuts off another route him, which off another route for him, which is to conservative is to return to the conservative party to become party where were he to become elected as a member of parliament? i think he would rise parliament? i think he would fise yes. rise through the ranks, yes. let's just put all that in one further context. the conservatives will not be the next government. so even if next government. it so even if nigel does penetrate the conservative he's not conservative party, he's not going find himself in power going to find himself in power before i ask you who you've got coming on your at 11, coming up on your show at 11, let's have a look let's just have a look at a little clip of nigel taking part in celebrity cyclone last in the celebrity cyclone last night. >> from last night's >> it it's from last night's episode. i mean, check this out. it's remarkable be it's quite remarkable to be honest. a look. farage honest. have a look. farage tells us that he made together .

tells us that he made together. in some respects. this isn't politics, is it? it's entertainment. but there you have it. and if you want to make nigel king of the jungle, you can just scan the qr code, as i said on the screen or go said earlier on the screen or go to cbnnews.com before we go, michael portillo, what have you got on your at michael portillo, what have you gotwell on your at michael portillo, what have you gotwell we're on your at michael portillo, what have you gotwell we're certainly at michael portillo, what have you gotwell we're certainly goingat 11? well we're certainly going to debate covid inquiry. to debate the covid inquiry. >> i think ian was raising some very important about very important questions about that. talking that. we're going to be talking to israeli defence forces to the israeli defence forces about is going in their about what is going on in their campaign . more campaign against hamas. more cheerfully, we're going to be looking two productions of looking at two productions of the nutcracker in london, and i'm going to be eating some christmas cake, which during the course of interview is going course of my interview is going to be fed and i think being fed means being fed with alcohol. if i understand correctly . i understand correctly. >> all right. well, do save some for of the staff in for the rest of the staff in stick around, because there will be christmas pudding little be christmas pudding a little later. anywhere for later. don't go anywhere for now, because i'm going to be speaking dr. speaking to the tory mp, dr. luke evans, won who's a campaign for a supermarket to put the

labels on food to say that it is being grown and made in britain. and what's with so and what's wrong with that? so stay for in just a stay tuned for that in just a moment.

company right through until 7:00 this evening. gb news is the people's . channel people's. channel >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. thank you for joining me this morning. i'm going to speak to denis macshane about his brilliant new book, labour takes power in just a moment. but first all, doctor moment. but first of all, doctor luke evans joins me. he's the

tory mp for bosworth. dr. evans, lovely to see you this morning. tell buy british tell me about your buy british campaign. sounds like a campaign. this sounds like a thoroughly the gb thoroughly good idea that the gb news would well news audience would be well behind . behind. >> give me lovely to see you and it's really simple what we simply asking for is that supermarkets online have a tab that's buy british at the moment . if you click onto any online supermarket , you . if you click onto any online supermarket, you can hit a christmas button and have a collection of all christmas stuff. yet we don't have that when it comes to buying british. now, many of the farmers want to see that and many of my constituents and across the country want to buy home grown local produce. so my campaign is simply asking the supermarkets implement this as a way of quickly the food that's quickly finding the food that's been grown home grown here in britain . britain. >> and you've had some joy already with the campaign because morrisons are because i think morrisons are the to sign the first supermarket to sign up. what have they agreed to do? >> yeah, it's been brilliant. so i wrote an open letter to all supermarkets with 121 mps from across the house signing up to

support it. the government backed it in september , we wrote backed it in september, we wrote off to all the supermarkets , the off to all the supermarkets, the only one that's come back supporting me is morrisons and they've said, yep, we love the idea, the new ceo said. it's great and they've implemented a buy tag. so if you go buy british tag. so if you go now your fruit and veg now to do your fruit and veg shop british shop, shop or your british meat shop, there's there. you can hit there's a tab there. you can hit that. there are 94 items and counting on there. so my simple question where next? well, question is where next? well, asking other supermarkets asking the other supermarkets if morrisons why can't morrisons can do it, why can't you and has this come in a kind of post brexit environment where british farmers have been saying of post brexit environment where bryou, farmers have been saying of post brexit environment where bryou, because1ave been saying of post brexit environment where bryou, because we been saying of post brexit environment where bryou, because i knowen saying of post brexit environment where bryou, because i know you're ng of post brexit environment where bryou, because i know you're in to you, because i know you're in a constituency a quite rural constituency there, they need this extra boost? >> i mean, how did it come about in the first place and what's the of the farming the reaction of the farming community the reaction of the farming concamilla you're spot on. so >> camilla you're spot on. so this out being out this came out from being out with farmers , you know, with my farmers, you know, talking to them, saying, what can government it can the government do? is it more is it more about subsidies? is it about tax breaks? and a couple of them just stopped me and said, really need. said, look, what we really need. people just buy people to do is just buy british. if they bought british stuff, have better stuff, we can then have better food security. it's better for

the environment it gives the environment and it gives people better choice. so i went the environment and it gives peopland tter choice. so i went the environment and it gives peopland thought, e. so i went the environment and it gives peopland thought, well,i went the environment and it gives peopland thought, well, what's away and thought, well, what's the do that? and the best way to do that? and then the letter. turns then wrote the letter. it turns out been out the nfu have been campaigning for this since about 2016 2017. so i've just 2016 and 2017. so i've just jumped piggybacked on the work with that's been with them. and since that's been happening we've petition happening, we've had a petition with and counting with 27,000 people and counting sign up to say, look, this is a good idea. why don't supermarkets do it more often? >> how is farming >> i mean, how is the farming community after we do community after brexit? we do hear of scare stories that hear sort of scare stories that farmers aren't happy, that they're about trade they're worried about trade deals with other countries, not least the likes zealand least the likes of new zealand and america. regard to and america. with regard to undercutting us when it comes to import mean, what's the import meat. i mean, what's the general feeling among the farmers that speaking to farmers that you're speaking to in well , there's always in bosworth well, there's always concerns, but they're very keen to point out the quality. >> the standards for husbandry. we have here, the standards for animal welfare are some the animal welfare are some of the best in the world. it's the quality that we have. there's quality that we have. so there's a opportunity a real opportunity there actually, exporting our actually, to be exporting our stuff across the world. so these trade help. yes, trade deals really help. yes, there risk you could there is a risk that you could be undercut, but i think the

british product stands on its own feet, which why when own two feet, which is why when i asked the farmers, they said, buy british, because it does all that that helps our food that for us that helps our food security as the security as well as the environment as well. and so i think it's a win win win now. it's not everyone. not it's not for everyone. not everyone afford that. but it's not for everyone. not eve|note afford that. but it's not for everyone. not eve|not i'm afford that. but it's not for everyone. not eve|not i'm notford that. but it's not for everyone. not eve|not i'm not sayingat. but it's not for everyone. not eve|not i'm not saying that.t it's not for everyone. not eve|not i'm not saying that. i'm i'm not i'm not saying that. i'm simply arguing that people get choice. >> while have you, dr. evans, >> while i have you, dr. evans, do mind if i ask you a few do you mind if i ask you a few sort of party and government related questions? i'm intrigued to know, instance, you to know, for instance, how you plan rwanda bill plan to vote on the rwanda bill on tuesday. there's lots of stories in newspapers about stories in the newspapers about potential rebellions on both stories in the newspapers about poteandl rebellions on both stories in the newspapers about poteand right llions on both stories in the newspapers about poteand right of)ns on both stories in the newspapers about pots and right of the on both stories in the newspapers about pots and right of the party.h stories in the newspapers about poteand right of the party. i left and right of the party. i just spoke to sir iain duncan smith, who sort of mulling it smith, who is sort of mulling it all over. where do you stand on that legislation, ian? >> thought you might ask me >> i thought you might ask me this question. camilla i will be supporting the government with this question. camilla i will be sup position. re government with this question. camilla i will be sup position. i government with this question. camilla i will be sup position. i simplyiment with this question. camilla i will be sup position. i simply taket with the position. i simply take a pragmatic of this. you've pragmatic view of this. you've got one side of the party, got on one side of the party, the left, saying this has gone too far. the side, the too far. on the other side, the right saying it hasn't gone far enough. government enough. and the government lawyers this is the right lawyers saying this is the right way deal with it. now we're

way to deal with it. now we're working a process. to working through a process. to me, what happens if we don't get this deterrent? this in place as a deterrent? labour don't have a policy, so nothing's to change and my nothing's going to change and my constituents want to see illegal immigration . this is our immigration stopped. this is our best chance doing it now. best chance of doing it now. particularly note what rwanda have said on this. their foreign minister turned around and minister has turned around and said, support this said, we will only support this in line with britain following international . so we've got international law. so we've got to remember, if this doesn't go through, going to to remember, if this doesn't go thra|gh, going to to remember, if this doesn't go thra great going to to remember, if this doesn't go thra great big going to to remember, if this doesn't go thra great big hole going to to remember, if this doesn't go thra great big hole injoing to to remember, if this doesn't go thra great big hole in theg to to remember, if this doesn't go thra great big hole in the whole be a great big hole in the whole scheme down. so for me, scheme falls down. so for me, it's purely a pragmatic decision. i follow the of decision. i follow the likes of david says, yeah, david davis who says, yeah, look, make sure this look, we want to make sure this gets sorted and this is our best chance of ensuring that because god labour don't have god forbid labour don't have a plan it. plan to deliver it. >> when you speak to people >> and when you speak to people on doorstep, i would imagine on the doorstep, i would imagine that do express concerns that they do express concerns about also about about the boats, but also about the legal migration figure which hit high of 745,000 hit a record high of 745,000 towards the end of 2022. but are they necessarily championing rwanda as a plan? i mean, you're quite a level headed tory mp who

may well have reacted to the idea of processing migrants overseas positively and then be told that we're going to do it dot, dot, dot in a rwanda and said to yourself, rwanda really? is that the best place to do it? >> well, i think we already see the un, according to the daily mail, sending people to rwanda, you know, refugees to be supported. i think the key thing is we've proved denmark has legislation that allows for offshoring to people in third countries to be processed . it's countries to be processed. it's a deterrent. we don't want people getting system people getting into that system in place. but i like in the first place. but i like to think if i was a political refugee, if it meant that i had to in another to be processed in another country be able get where country to be able to get where i wanted to be, i would go through that. want people through that. but we want people to through the legal to come through the legal routes. i think, know, routes. and i think, you know, one of what's lost in these one of the what's lost in these net migration figures legally is that actually of the best net migration figures legally is that actwely of the best net migration figures legally is that actwe have of the best net migration figures legally is that actwe have isf the best net migration figures legally is that actwe have is our; best exports we have is our university education university and our education system. thing is that system. the key thing is that people were bringing their families and staying families along and staying further we them to. further than we wanted them to. that's reasonable question. that's a reasonable question. i want to export our university

education across the world, but i also want to be able to have the services here provided to the services here provided to the public that meet the standards that they expect. and that's the balance we're looking at. the sheer numbers of at. it's the sheer numbers of people so we people coming through. so we need stop illegal migration need to stop illegal migration and with legal and then deal with legal migration in a way that is still beneficial the country. but beneficial to the country. but also allows us to export across the well. the world as well. >> now , i note that you won the >> now, i note that you won the patchwork conservative mp of the year for campaigning on body image following your work as a gp where you saw quotes firsthand the negative impact that social platforms and that social media platforms and false advertising can have on a person's relationship with their body. person's relationship with their bochu're also very good on >> you're also very good on social media. you're a tik tok user notwithstanding the concerns chinese spying concerns about chinese spying and you are quite good, actually, to be fair to you, dr. evans, that sort of connecting with younger voters, finally, do you think the tories have got a problem with younger voters? sometimes the idea of a young conservative slightly conservative seems slightly oxymoronic . oxymoronic. >> well, look, it's a great way

each mp has to find a way in which they can connect. and i heard you talking before about nigel farage being out on celebrity and a chance to connect in a different way to a different audience. and that's what my job is here as an mp to find ways, connect people. for me, it's being on tiktok is the one thing i get stopped up and down the country for. to say you're the mp on tiktok and you do it in a style that educates people to say what goes on behind system. because lot behind the system. because a lot of people up the of people get fed up with the process party political process and the party political stuff. understanding stuff. so understanding why decisions and often decisions are made and often both the argument i both sides of the argument i think really important . and think is really important. and if i can play in doing if i can play a part in doing that, doctor. that's that, that's a doctor. that's what doing as a politician, what i'm doing as a politician, and i think can really help. and i think it can really help. so i've found leash. it's not so i've found a leash. it's not for not everyone goes for everyone, not everyone goes into the jungle, but i think we've got to have horses for coui'ses. >> courses. >> dr. evans, thank you so >> dr. luke evans, thank you so much joining much for joining me this morning. good your by morning. good luck with your by british campaign. thank you. thank you. lovely see thank you. lovely to see you. now i'm joined the studio by now i'm joined in the studio by former mp denis macshane.

former labour mp denis macshane. he's a new book. he's the author of a new book. let's a look it. labour let's have a look at it. labour takes power. the dennis macshane diaries, dennis diaries, 1997 to 2001. dennis lovely to see you. now, i know you're very familiar to gb news viewers and indeed listeners this book puts you at the very heart of a very exciting time, i would imagine, in your political career. and i was wondering, on election night, when you think back moment in 1997, back to that moment in 1997, what's the of overriding what's the sort of overriding memory that you have of tony blair taking power in quite sensational fashion , in fear, in sensational fashion, in fear, in the sense that we knew we were going to win. >> we knew tony was going to win. but i just worked in european politics, by the way. i loved luke luke, luke's idea of buy british. i am old enough to remember robert maxwell launching a giant campaign to buy british. but you go to any french supermarket and they all have big signs say this produce is produced not in france but locally . so have a tory mp locally. so have a tory mp coughing a great french idea . coughing a great french idea. nothing wrong with that at all.

anyway, on this 1997. yes . anyway, on this 1997. yes. i just was uncertain whether tony, who was an excellent leader, but he'd never had any government experience , nor had gordon experience, nor had gordon brown, nor had robin cook, with whom i was beginning to work in the foreign office, would have that that experience of what to do. but i was very pleasantly surprised that they came up with a lot of very, very good ideas which corresponded to what the country felt . for example, country felt. for example, abolishing all the tory anti—gay laws. i mean, it's literally unbelievable , camilla, to think unbelievable, camilla, to think that in 1997 still could be that in 1997 you still could be in trouble in some areas if you were gay. we got rid of all of that, although the tories would take credit for gay marriage. of course, lots and lots of other of other things. i just of other things. and i just decided earlier on when i came into a by—election in 1994, i would keep a diary as a kind of witness . so every day, a little witness. so every day, a little note. then the evening dictated, then driving up to the

constituency on friday, very early in the morning, dictating more transcribing. so all of its contemporaneous. yes, a lot of diaries are written, sometimes written by guys on the daily mail or wherever for their principles. these are real accounts of what it was like . accounts of what it was like. and then as you read through it at 2 or 3 big takeaways for me, number one. oh, very early on, tensions between the two big beasts , as it were, team blair beasts, as it were, team blair and team brown. >> you say early on what do you mean, in 1997? i mean, i like this quote that you give the book, talks about quotes, personal rivalries, slights and petty jealousy between the parties, big beasts. i mean, give us some examples. were blair and brown at each other's throats from very beginning throats from the very beginning or early dodi thought or it basic early dodi thought like margaret thatcher or even if you like, edward heath, we should engage pretty fully with europe. >> i don't think it was gordon himself. gordon before he became chancellor, i knew him on the european circuit was much more seen as the labour party's mr europe at the time. but the

treasury, the treasury blob , treasury, the treasury blob, always hated sharing power with any other country. >> you refer to treasury officials as maggots. >> well , i officials as maggots. >> well, i mean slightly harsh, dennis, but what are you saying? >> what are you saying about treasury officials? because this seems to be a problem that faced liz blob. liz truss. it's a blob. >> it is. it is. it's has >> it is. it is. it's what has led to the 19th century called the thing. you always have this established wisdom of the purse and functionaries in other countries , they change them. countries, they change them. nobody pretends in france or in germany the civil servant doesn't have a political point of view. so they rotate bit of view. so they rotate a bit more. here we have these guys who come out of winchester and eton the foreign office eton put into the foreign office after oxford into civil service, after oxford into civil service, after oxford into civil service, after oxford or cambridge , and after oxford or cambridge, and then stay there just clocking up their their gongs until they die. and that was part of the problem. the other difficulty was that the conservative party, i still don't quite know how it happened. william hague is a very intelligent man. he came

from rotherham. i knew his family where i was the mp and yet he the way to trip family where i was the mp and yetblair the way to trip family where i was the mp and yetblair was the way to trip family where i was the mp and yetblair was to the way to trip family where i was the mp and yetblair was to make y to trip family where i was the mp and yetblair was to make the trip family where i was the mp and yetblair was to make the tory up blair was to make the tory party a ukip party. ukip wasn't invented by then . nigel, invented by then. nigel, i think, was elected a few years later, but already every day almost in the commons. william hague was giving in to bill cash. once again we see bill cash. once again we see bill cash this morning. bill cash back. he's eternal. he's eternal i >> although he's standing down at the next general election. >> so that that was a problem. but where blair was lucky, he had a big majority. so there were rebellions, huge rebellions in the first few months of lone parents. you you might remember them technically i was at university in these era , but university in these era, but yes, vaguely. they they were the big issues. there was a left that couldn't quite coalesce around a leader. tony benn was there causing the eternal mischief. i mean, he was horrified at the idea of this thatcherite new labour leader at

the end of the day. yeah, except i talking to one of lionel jospin . he was a french prime jospin. he was a french prime minister, the socialist prime minister, the socialist prime minister who came in exactly the same time the summer of 1997. and talking to alan bugariu, who's one of their big intellectuals and he said, denis, what he said in french. so i shouldn't do a silly french accent. he said, and you know, the big difference is that lila jospa talks left and acts right with blair. it's the other way round. yes. so all this pro—business sub thatcherite sub things like secret ballots for trade unions she brought in with commonplace in europe 20 or 30 years before only our stupid unions didn't see that. but what that meant was that tony, by giving that impression , actually giving that impression, actually could get a lot of investment. 20,000 more cops on the street . 20,000 more cops on the street. sure start for children , lots of sure start for children, lots of other things. huge amounts of extra cash came becoming a bit later not here on for the nhs. presumably people thought this was trying to channel his inner

thatcher as well. >> at the moment he's given an 0p >> at the moment he's given an op ed in the sunday telegraph last weekend which said that he admired thatcher. let me just stop you there just because i want fit in anecdotes want to fit in these anecdotes about of princess about the death of princess diana, are really interesting. >> yes. yes, indeed. interesting. >> so ;. yes, indeed. interesting. >> so your, indeed. interesting. >> so your diariesi. interesting. >> so your diaries reflect that you janvrin , the you phoned robin janvrin, the queen's deputy private secretary, you say? i told him that if the royals were not down in london by tomorrow, this is in london by tomorrow, this is in the aftermath, of course, of diana's august 31st, diana's death on august 31st, 1997, in paris , you said if the 1997, in paris, you said if the royals are not down in london by tomorrow, there will be a republic. by the weekend . and an republic. by the weekend. and an exaggeration, not by much. exaggeration, but not by much. you really said that to janvrin. and what was his response? >> response was, i know >> his response was, i know dennis. i know. i keep trying to . you can't get through to them. i mean, he was incredibly intelligent, gifted public servant , an ex intelligent, gifted public servant, an ex foreign intelligent, gifted public servant , an ex foreign office servant, an ex foreign office diplomat who loved the queen. i know that served. he was said i think her press officer and assistant private secretary. but i just came down from my

constituency where i'd been there with my children and the horrible story arrived. i came down to london and i saw where i live in pimlico. these mounds of flowers outside a little curry shop, there's a picture of diana and she runs past it in a muslin gauze dress. when ten years previously. but what was happening at buckingham palace, the flag wasn't coming down. the daily mail was phoning up saying, you've got any comment on the queen? yes. flying the royal flag in a sign of mourning . i said forget i'm not going to quote on that. and i just said you could feel you could palpably feel the anger at the royal family because as constituted ed charles, who dumped diana pretty brutally, got off with an old girlfriend. okay. she didn't forget that. that's 30, 40 years, 30 years ago.the that's 30, 40 years, 30 years ago. the queen unable to respond to the grief of the nation . and to the grief of the nation. and i was actually politically frightened to be tony came out, talked about the people's

princess and friends and the tory phobia. my god, this is his thatcher moment. this is his falklands moment. this is when he represents the nation. so yeah, but the queen did come out in the end. >> in the end, she gave that remarkable televised address >> in the end, she gave that remarishea televised address >> in the end, she gave that remarishe spoke ised address >> in the end, she gave that remarishe spoke both address >> in the end, she gave that remarishe spoke both asiress >> in the end, she gave that remarishe spoke both as your where she spoke both as your queen and as grandmother. where she spoke both as your queen and as grandmother . yes. queen and as a grandmother. yes. i subsequently, i mean, subsequently, i think there been sort of peter there have been sort of peter morgan esque depictions of all this, was this, that tony blair was dictating speech. this, that tony blair was dict no, g speech. this, that tony blair was dictno, no, speech. this, that tony blair was dictno, no, no, peech. this, that tony blair was dictno, no, no, no, :h. this, that tony blair was dictno, no, no, no, no. >> no, no, no, no, no. >> that's not how it happened. >> that's not how it happened. >> no, no. >> no, no, no. >> came out with those words. >> i came out with those words. >> i came out with those words. >> i came out with those words. >> i know. i've got other >> i don't know. i've got other queen's stories, people, queen's stories, other people, downing street, balmoral stories. another stories. that's for another time. no. i mean, i'm sure time. no no. i mean, i'm sure somebody wrote it for her and they were very moving. >> but it wasn't tony blair and alastair campbell. >> good god, no . no but the >> good god, no. no but the words were found and it did come down. it always sort of does come down every time . we think come down every time. we think the royal family is in trouble, probably since 1649 when one king lost his head somewhere else, no doubt on whitehall . the

else, no doubt on whitehall. the royal families have been in trouble. so what they've done is send for a new one from germany or they've renewed the stock by bringing in a sort of handsome greek officer, and they find a way out. >> they find a way through, and they did way through. they did find a way through. just briefly to end, i mean, you'll have seen some of the coverage in this morning's newspapers. professor sir john curtice talking about curtice is talking about electoral oblivion for the conservatives. they be conservatives. they might be down to 130 seats. do you believe that? because i can understand huge amounts of disaffection with the conservative party and i think apathy is the enemy right now. are they all champing at the bit to elect keir starmer prime minister, as they were? tony blair on in blair if you read early on in the mandelson writes the book, peter mandelson writes an article saying the conservatives be out of conservatives could be out of power forever. >> and i just say, please, >> and i just say, oh, please, peter , this is hubris. this is peter, this is hubris. this is silly and it's stupid . the silly and it's stupid. the conservative party have been coming back for 250 years. every time you think they're out, they'll come back. they won't

come back with bringing in the cloud from the jungle, to be honest. now, now, now, we must be voting for him. >> so, nigel farage is a friend of mine. >> i an. m- m him for him, >> yes, i like him for him, dennis. i dare say. and he's your presenter i love him your presenter and i love him dearly. the reason he was dearly. but the reason he was rejected seven times when he tried an mp, nation tried to be an mp, the nation loves as a cloud, attacking loves him as a cloud, attacking europe, but in charge any law europe, but in charge of any law that us. thanks. so that affects us. no thanks. so very so. very possibly so. >> the tories will have a bad just to finish. dennis they'll have election, but not have a bad election, but not total i don't think total wipe—out i don't think so. >> it'll big question is >> it'll be a big question is what? what they afterwards what? what do they do afterwards if further right . if they go further right. further. right. further right. then they'll be out for another five years. but the tories are not over. >> okay. dennis macshane, thank you very much for coming in today. let's just give another plug today. let's just give another plug to the book. dennis mcshane's diary, labour's peaks power. covers that period power. and it covers that period from 1997 to 2001. well, that's it for me for today. thank you very much for joining it for me for today. thank you very much forjoining me. i'm going to be back next week at 930. up next, it's michael portillo . a brighter outlook

portillo. a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> good morning. welcome to your latest gb news weather. i'm ellie glaisyer low pressure still very much in charge of our weather, bringing some spells of wet and windy conditions moving in from the west. this one in particular spreading its way north eastwards as we go north and eastwards as we go through morning. bring through this morning. this bring you heavy rainfall to you some very heavy rainfall to parts wales, south—west parts of wales, south—west england, spreading england, and then spreading into northern scotland northern england and scotland later falling on later here. this rain falling on some already very saturated later here. this rain falling on some also dy very saturated later here. this rain falling on some also we lery saturated later here. this rain falling on some also we could|turated later here. this rain falling on some also we could see ted later here. this rain falling on some also we could see some ground. so we could see some localised flooding through sunday. despite that rain, though , across northern parts of though, across northern parts of the uk, will be some the uk, there will be some brightness parts wales brightness across parts of wales and south west england where temperatures likely to reach temperatures are likely to reach around degrees. but around 13 or 14 degrees. but with southwesterly wind with a strong southwesterly wind that notch those that will take a notch off those temperatures through sunday evening. further rain pushes in from the west, particularly

across northern ireland into wales and northern england as we head the early hours of head through the early hours of monday again this rain monday morning. again this rain falling that saturated falling on that very saturated ground. localised ground. so some localised flooding possible . while there flooding possible. while there will clear skies around , will be some clear skies around, particularly southern particularly across the southern half of the uk where temperatures 7 8 temperatures around 7 or 8 degrees, but under all that cloud and rain, temperatures dropping around degrees dropping around 2 to 4 degrees here. a cloudy start for many of us on monday and quite a wet start across parts of scotland, too. rain continues to push in from the east, turning from the east, perhaps turning wintry hills of wintry over any hills of scotland , but the of the scotland, but the best of the sunshine monday. definitely sunshine on monday. definitely across of wales and across parts of wales and southern . temperatures southern england. temperatures here above average here a little bit above average for of year, around for the time of year, around 10 to 12 degrees. but across parts of generally around of scotland, generally around average in the mid to low single figures , looks things figures, it looks like things are heating up. >> boxt boiler as sponsors of weather here on .

gb news good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo banquet on a bunch of arts politics, culture and good conversation . conversation. >> the government of rishi sunak appears to be close to existential crisis. on tuesday. the government must steer the verandah safety bill through its first stage in the house of

commons. robert jenrick, who resigned as immigration minister last week, believes that the legislation is inadequate, that it probably not make it it will probably not make it possible for illegal migrants to be sent on flights to rwanda before the next general election . former secretary, . the former home secretary, suella braverman agrees. suella braverman, agrees. according the sunday according to the sunday telegraph star chamber of telegraph, a star chamber of conservative lawyers has already reached same conclusion on reached the same conclusion on in much peril are the bill? in how much peril are the bill? and the prime minister who is its author, an excellent political panel, will give its view in few moments. the war view in a few moments. the war in gaza appears to have reached a new intensity as israel presses further into the south of strip. the un's refugee of the strip. the un's refugee agency says society in the strip is on the brink of full blown collapse. and what are the israeli hostages who remain in the hands hamas will be the hands of hamas will be speaking spokesman speaking to the spokesman for the israeli defence forces, lieutenant colonel peter lerner . lieutenant colonel peter lerner. igor turani lilac is the arts editor of the spectator . he'll editor of the spectator. he'll be joining me in the studio to pay be joining me in the studio to pay tribute to the woman who made cinema respectable in britain. iris barry became the spectator's critic back in