their verdict on will give their verdict on whether the rwanda bill is workable. conservative mp sir bill cash will present the findings ahead of the crunch. second vote on tuesday. the prime minister has come under pressure after it was discovered he paid £240 million towards a rwanda plan without a single flight taking off. tory sources say the mps will decide whether to support the legislation tomorrow or if necessary . tory tomorrow or if necessary. tory hold a second meeting ahead of the vote . the met police say two the vote. the met police say two teenage girls have been arrested on suspicion of robbery after a woman was attacked in london. a warning this video shows distressing images. warning this video shows distressing images . footage of distressing images. footage of the attack has been circulating on social media showing the 20 year old walking in stamford hill and then being robbed and beaten . the woman who is from beaten. the woman who is from the orthodox jewish community was reportedly left bruised but did not need to go to hospital, met. police say it's keeping an open mind about the motive for the attack, but are treating it as a possible hate crime .

as a possible hate crime. baroness michelle mone says she made an error in publicly denying her links to the pr firm medpro. it was awarded government contracts worth more than £200 million to supply personal protective equipment after she recommended it to ministers. the national crime agency is investigating the firm and its connection to the conservative peer lady mone argues she is being used as a scapegoat by the government for its own covid failings . a judge its own covid failings. a judge has ordered the bbc to release emails related to martin bashir's controversial 1995 interview with princess diana . a interview with princess diana. a warning the following video has some flashing images. mr warning the following video has some flashing images . mr bashir some flashing images. mr bashir officially stepped down from his job at the broadcaster in 2021 after it emerged he had secured the interview through deception and faking documents. judge bnan and faking documents. judge brian kennedy said the corporation had been inconsistent and unreliable in the way it dealt with the initial inquest to release material under the freedom of information act. the material

related to how the broadcaster handled the scandal when it came to light in 2020. fresh weather warnings have been issued as storm fergus sweeps across the country . leitrim village in country. leitrim village in ireland has been hit by a possible tornado as homes and cars are seriously damaged. emergency services were called after high winds from storm mairin flattened trees ripped a roof off a building and left debns roof off a building and left debris scattered on the street . debris scattered on the street. yellow weather warnings are in place and over 40 flood warnings have been issued across england and scotland . gale force winds and scotland. gale force winds are likely to hit south wales and areas of the bristol. channel this is gb news across the uk on tv in your car , on the uk on tv in your car, on your digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying play gb news now it's back to the free speech nation . on ivy league speech nation. on ivy league universities under fire for anti—semitism. >> joey barton vows to end

women's involvement in men's football and the media are calling male rapists. female again, this is free speech nafion again, this is free speech nation . welcome to free speech nation. welcome to free speech nation. welcome to free speech nation. with me , andrew doyle. nation. with me, andrew doyle. this is the show where we take a look at culture, current affairs and politics. and of course, we'll have the latest from those lovable culture warriors who this week are responsible for the alarming increase in the number prisoners. but number of female prisoners. but coming up on the show tonight, should trans inmates allowed should trans inmates be allowed to in female to work and party in female prisons .7 i'll be talking to kate prisons? i'll be talking to kate coleman from prisons, coleman from keep prisons, single dennis kavanagh single sex, dennis kavanagh joins me to discuss whether trans ideology is a threat to gay kids and spiked editor tom slater will discuss a new danish law that prohibits the burning of religious books. and of course, myself and my fantastic panel will be answering questions from our rather beautiful audience . but beautiful studio audience. but i've got to introduce my panellists first. i have the

comedians, josh comedians, bruce devlin and josh howie , who are you both? well, howie, who are you both? well, you're looking very funereal, the pair of you. you're all in black and you're black. tie. what's going on? >> this is . oh, that was a sale >> this is. oh, that was a sale at tk max. >> it was a salad, tk max , i >> it was a salad, tk max, i thought you were mourning for the world. i thought you were going to be quite poetic about it. >> my bank balance? >> my bank balance? >> yeah. for your bank balance. quite >> yeah. i'm kind of in mourning because an audience with because it's an audience with kylie itv tonight and i'm here. >> oh, that's what it's about. okay. is very okay. and black is very slimming, so, you know, just called me fat. >> didn't enjoy the show. >> no, it didn't enjoy the show. absolutely not. >> i meant bruce devlin. >> what i meant bruce devlin. what anyway let's get what a start. anyway let's get our audience. our questions from our audience. so question from so our first question is from alan. alan, where are you? hi, alan. >> hi, guys. after showing really pretty poor judgement this week , can the top us this week, can the top us college leaders ever be trusted ' 7 m. again? >> this was my favourite story of the week. well, i say favourite. it's pretty shocking stuff. so this is the leaders, presidents of harvard and mit

and penn. you might have seen that they appeared in that they all appeared in congress and they had to answer these about of these questions about some of these questions about some of the more unsavoury things that are said by student are being said by student protesters campus now , let's protesters on campus now, let's have look at what was said in have a look at what was said in the clip. >> oh, he's calling for the genocide violate mit's genocide of jews violate mit's code of conduct or rules regarding bullying and harassment . harassment. >> i have not heard calling for the genocide for jews on >> i have not heard calling for the genocide forjews on our the genocide for jews on our campus, but heard chants campus, but you've heard chants for intifada . i've heard chants for intifada. i've heard chants which can be anti—semitic depending on the context when calling for the elimination of the jewish people at penn, does calling for the genocide of jews via late penn's rules or code of conduct is if the yes or no, if the speech becomes conduct, it can be harassment . can be harassment. >> yes, conduct meaning committing the act of genocide . committing the act of genocide. the speech is not harassment . the speech is not harassment. this is unacceptable. ms mcgill and dr. gay at harvard does calling for the genocide of jews violate harvard's rules of bullying and harassment ? yes or

no? >> it can be, depending on the context that is quite an incredible clip, isn't it? >> there are there is an easy answer to the question on whether calling for the genocide of jews violates your conduct. the answer probably i the answer is probably yes. i would thought . you would would have thought. you would hope josh, do you hope anyway. josh, what do you make of this? >> well, an issue that >> well, this is an issue that i've personally known about a long time. people have long time. jewish people have known have been known about and have been calling it . and it is calling out about it. and it is now now seeing the now now we're seeing the leadership institutions leadership of these institutions the educational. well, the highest educational. well, these top universities these are the top universities really, arguably the world. really, arguably in the world. you we've oxford and you know, we've got oxford and cambridge but and cambridge and whatnot. but and you see that the problem is you can see that the problem is at and we've seen these at the top. and we've seen these marches . it's just been over marches. it's not just been over the months. this the last couple of months. this stuff on for stuff has been going on for years and it's not just in years now. and it's not just in america. it's in the uk. we america. it's been in the uk. we had an academic in bristol who came out with some unbelievably like and backed like crazy stuff and got backed by hundreds of academics across the country . and this stuff is the country. and this stuff is embedded and none of these

institutions are actually have taken a stand. and this is why. well, no, here's a question. >> i mean, so a of people >> i mean, so a lot of people are raising the free speech argument here, which would be a lot convincing these lot more convincing if these universities hadn't so universities hadn't been so quick people, throw quick to punish people, throw them micro aggressions them out for micro aggressions for slightest perceived them out for micro aggressions for where st perceived them out for micro aggressions for where there ceived them out for micro aggressions for where there wasn't even offence where there wasn't even an offence, calling the an offence, but calling for the genocide jews . that's okay, genocide of jews. that's okay, right? this is the thing. it's an incredible double standard. >> it's >> it's an unbelievable, it's unbelievable not that unbelievable hypocrisy. not that it's is the first it's not like this is the first time that the woke the far time that the woke or the far left are being a hypocrite. of course not. that is course not. no. but that is that's like a defining that's almost like a defining characteristic what it is to characteristic of what it is to be woke. >> so this is the question, because the woke have this idea that there are hierarchies of privilege and they've put jews at the top that higher. at the top of that higher. they say privileged say they're the most privileged and so therefore they're not to be protected. that's the implication this implication of this. but this sort suggests i mean, had sort of suggests how i mean, had they calling for the death they been calling for the death of other ethnic group, could of any other ethnic group, could those have no, those presidents have said no, we're fine, we're with. we're fine, we're fine with. >> about context and >> well, it's about context and this no, course this and that? no, of course not. yeah. i mean, it was a disgraceful has disgraceful display. one has since resigned and. and this is

the thing is that has the other thing is that one has resigned and there's for resigned and there's calls for others resign. all this others to resign. but all this does the gristle does is it's meat to the gristle for anti—semites because they 90, for anti—semites because they go, oh look, this person's resigning. be resigning. so jews must be powerful. no, this powerful. it's like, no, this person being held accountable person is being held accountable for words actions. for their words and actions. >> was talking to peter >> well, i was talking to peter bogosian he made bogosian about this, and he made the people should stop the case that people should stop giving money to their universities. universities universities. the universities are place s as when are not the same place s as when you university, right? you went to university, right? they an they are now captured by an ideology. and you're feeding ideology. and so you're feeding money a that money into a system that effectively this kind effectively promotes this kind of. but they're getting that money instead. money from qatar instead. >> the difference is >> so that's the difference is billions been pumped billions has been pumped in from qatar. following this qatar. so they're following this ideology. course, ideology. qatar, of course, housing hamas, leadership of housing hamas, the leadership of hamas, and putting housing hamas, the leadership of hanout and putting housing hamas, the leadership of hanout there. and putting housing hamas, the leadership of hanout there. so and putting housing hamas, the leadership of hanout there. so andcan ting housing hamas, the leadership of hanout there. so andcan pull this out there. so you can pull the back. and there the funds back. and there are people have their people who have taken their funds back. but the question for them, they're going, oh, well, am have billion am i going to have a billion here a hundred here or a hundred million? >> for free speech on on >> i'm all for free speech on on campus. bruce but, know, it campus. bruce but, you know, it has to be applied consistently. and looks as though to me it and it looks as though to me it absolutely isn't here. >> well, yeah, no , i see what >> well, yeah, no, i see what you're saying there. i mean,

obviously what they've said in terms the whole context thing terms of the whole context thing was like, know what context was like, you know what context would make that acceptable? exactly i'm really sure. exactly i'm really not sure. i think that's i mean, a lot of people are saying, well, they weren't question weren't the people in question weren't the people in question weren't genocide weren't calling for the genocide of that's your misinterpretation >> that's your misinterpretation of that. but i have heard people saying explicit saying very explicit anti—semitic and anti—semitic things. and certainly people on certainly i've heard people on campus terrorist campus supporting terrorist acts. the case, saying acts. that's the case, saying here's the context, the context is coming from the far is if it's coming from the far right, like, right, there would be like, that's terrible. right, there would be like, that's trif'ible. right, there would be like, that's trif'iblecoming from their >> but if it's coming from their political alignment and the far left, then suddenly it's acceptable excuses can be made. >> do think i mean, just >> do you think i mean, just watching that clip, it seemed to me that those presidents, the three in question, three presidents in question, looked they looked very nervous. they were grinning smiling almost, but grinning or smiling almost, but it nervous smile. it looked like a nervous smile. it's like they were it's almost like they were thinking, get out of thinking, how can i get out of this? can i get out of this this? how can i get out of this without upsetting the crazy students to students who are going to protest demand protest and demand my resignation? imagining that resignation? am i imagining that that's looked like to me? >> no, no, no, no. i completely agree with you. >> yeah. what do you think? >> yeah. what do you think? >> yeah. what do you think?

>> yeah. no mean, the woman in >> yeah. no i mean, the woman in the middle was, like, grinning. >> yeah. no i mean, the woman in the coulda was, like, grinning. >> yeah. no i mean, the woman in the coulda wa�*of.ike, grinning. >> yeah. no i mean, the woman in the coulda wa�*of say grinning. >> yeah. no i mean, the woman in the coulda wa�*of say g|you're. you could sort of say if you're being generous. yes, it was nervousness, but it was a sort of there sort of of smirk. like there was sort of out super clever within out being super clever within the and lawyery speak for the system and lawyery speak for what clear moral position. what is a clear moral position. >> the president of harvard >> and the president of harvard has apologised since. but one suspects to do with the suspects that's to do with the threats of funding being withdrawn. people withdrawn. a lot of rich people are saying now, well, we don't want fund anymore and want to fund you anymore and that's enough. they want to fund you anymore and thatdo enough. they want to fund you anymore and that do what enough. they want to fund you anymore and that do what they nough. they want to fund you anymore and that do what they want1. they want to fund you anymore and that do what they want with ay want to fund you anymore and that do what they want with their can do what they want with their money. okay. we're going move money. okay. we're going to move to question from tommy. to on a question from tommy. where's hello, tommy. where's tommy? hello, tommy. hi, abby. well, of you abby. hi uh, well, both of you go on. >> uh, why do scotland want to make it easier for kids to change gender? yeah. >> have the >> yeah, you always have the good questions. you, too. i think is. i think this is a think this is. i think this is a very old one, so a court has found in favour of the uk government blocking scotland's landmark government blocking scotland's landm remember this government blocking scotland's landmremember this story you'll remember this story because covered it before. because we covered it before. this was basically happened because we covered it before. this withe asically happened because we covered it before. this withe government happened because we covered it before. this withe government in appened is that the government in scotland lodged a court case scotland had lodged a court case against westminster because westminster had used a section 35 order to block its gender recognition reform bill. now,

josh, the snp were told, weren't they ? if you try and challenge they? if you try and challenge this, you will lose. but they were also told before the bill had passed that this was a bad idea, that you didn't have the support of the majority of people in scotland as it happened. >> no, it didn't. but and they've wasted whole of they've wasted a whole load of scottish taxpayers scottish money, taxpayers money on and there's already on this. and there's already a deficit there. they have 21 days, i believe , to call it in, days, i believe, to call it in, to protest or whatever. >> but let me ask the scottish person on the panel, because you are representative of the nation tonight. so, bruce , why would tonight. so, bruce, why would they go for this? why would they bother personally? >> i think so. we've just had a leadership contest in scotland because nicola had somewhere else to go. she was busy. >> she was she was doing her hair. >> she's got an electric car now. but more of that later. and but the fact of the matter is, the three main contenders weren't particularly pro lgbtq+ so and i'm speaking this is conjecture on my part. yes was

it the case then, because they suffered some bad press by virtue of perhaps not turning up to vote on things? kate forbes was very vocal on the fact that although she's nothing against gay couples and all that kind of stuff, she couldn't in all conscience support them. >> i'm not because of her religious beliefs. >> because her. >> yes, because of her. apparently, won't hang apparently, she won't hang washing on a sunday. i don't washing out on a sunday. i don't know got the bigger know who's got the bigger problem. though, problem. that's just me, though, so that either. so i won't do that either. >> be fair, i don't do my own washing. >> no. the fact of the matter is, think it might have been is, i think it might have been something and it might have been a pr thing whatever. a pr thing or whatever. interesting. a lot of people interesting. but a lot of people are saying it's affront to are saying it's an affront to scottish democracy. and then scottish democracy. kc and then a people are saying, a lot of people are saying, well, have had well, we shouldn't have had devolution beginning devolution in the beginning because seem because it just doesn't seem to have that's have worked well, that's that's the way a lot of politicians within the snp are spinning it and saying, know, and they're saying, you know, this that are this just proves that we are beholden westminster beholden to westminster and that this is a terrible situation. >> but josh, there were so many problems bill. i mean, problems with that bill. i mean, there amendments there were amendments tabled, people to people tried to get them to change so same sex

change it. so that same sex wards in hospitals could be protected, that women's wards in hospitals could be protectecouldthat women's wards in hospitals could be protectecould bet women's wards in hospitals could be protectecould be protected and prisons could be protected and wouldn't have rapists wouldn't have male rapists installed that sex installed in them so that sex criminals on trial couldn't suddenly as women suddenly identify as women and apply all of this apply for a grc. so all of this stuff was there was by stuff was there was rejected by the that's why the bill was the snp. that's why the bill was bad. surely no. no. yeah. >> ignored. this this >> it was ignored. this this direct evidence of the stuff that we saw immediately bear fruit. having isla bryson being sent female jail happened sent to a female jail happened immediately. were immediately. and then they were like, hadn't considered like, oh, we hadn't considered this stuff except for fact this stuff except for the fact that experts told them that the experts had told them directly, is what's going directly, this is what's going to and the acquisition of >> and also the acquisition of gender a grc, gender reform gender of a grc, a gender reform certificate or a recognition certificate or a recognition certificate be certificate that would then be applicable other parts of the uk. >> well, that's why that was the whole they the whole reason they called in the whole reason they called in the whole 35 because whole section 35 thing, because it's different you're just it's different if you're just deaung it's different if you're just dealing scottish laws and dealing with scottish laws and scottish in of scottish people in terms of getting subscriptions getting free subscriptions or something affect something that doesn't affect the country. but the rest of the country. but this would change the law effectively for the of the effectively for the rest of the country , which is why they call country, which is why they call it into question. and that's why it into question. and that's why it didn't. it got it got cancelled. >> okay. well, let's move on now to question from mark acas.

to a question from mark acas. have marcus? yeah, hello. have we got marcus? yeah, hello. >> isjoey have we got marcus? yeah, hello. >> is joey barton wrong to criticise female pundits working in men's football? criticise female pundits working in rwell, football? criticise female pundits working in rwell, okay,3ll? criticise female pundits working in rwell, okay, so’ criticise female pundits working in rwell, okay, so bar joey >> well, okay, so bar and joey barton, huge barton, he's provoked this huge backlash when he posted this series of tweets or exes or whatever to call whatever we're meant to call them and he said them at the moment. and he said women be with women shouldn't be talking with any authority in any kind of authority in football because it's a man's game. then he doubled down. game. and then he doubled down. he interview with piers he had an interview with piers morgan on morgan and he doubled down on this. lot about joey this. you know, a lot about joey barton. you've been looking into this. what do you think, bruce? >> this a who faked >> well, this is a man who faked a say something a french accent to say something about finger about a mongoose, a finger buffet, and during a press conference, so is he are you sure you're not dreaming that that sounds surreal me. sure you're not dreaming that tha didjnds surreal me. sure you're not dreaming that tha did that surreal me. sure you're not dreaming that tha did that not �*eal me. sure you're not dreaming that tha did that not happen?e. >> did that not happen? >> did that not happen? >> joey barton not the one >> is joey barton not the one that starts speaking french? >> is joey barton not the one tha hearts speaking french? >> is joey barton not the one tha he did, speaking french? >> is joey barton not the one tha he did, yeah. ng french? >> is joey barton not the one tha he did, yeah. no, french? >> is joey barton not the one tha he did, yeah. no, he rench? >> is joey barton not the one tha he did, yeah. no, he did]? >> he did, yeah. no, he did. they're me he did. yes. they're telling me he did. yes. >> you. not you, but. >> thank you. not you, but. okay, so i'm just a bit like it was like the other day. i was going through instagram and a woman telling me about woman was telling me about erectile dysfunction disorder. woman was telling me about erec'ile dysfunction disorder. woman was telling me about erec'i thought|ction disorder. woman was telling me about erec'i thought|ction diitirder. woman was telling me about erec'i thought|ction diit was. and i thought even if it was applicable to which it's applicable to me, which it's not, was like, why is she not, i was like, why is she telling me this? so i don't

know. he have point? does know. does he have a point? does he i mean, you know me he not? i mean, you know me football or he just trying to football or is he just trying to gain himself? gain attention for himself? >> don't know. >> maybe. i don't know. >> maybe. i don't know. >> he then just speaking >> could he then just speaking of accent. yeah, exactly. of german accent. yeah, exactly. >> good at accents. >> absolutely. >> absolutely. >> yeah. yeah good for him. what do you make of this, do do you make of this, josh? do you women be you think women should be involved punditry? involved in football punditry? >> issue here is >> it's a wider issue here is can critics in general, which is punditry of criticism punditry is a form of criticism come can you to them come um, can you listen to them when they haven't got expertise doing actual thing that doing the actual thing that they're critiquing? >> interesting. >> interesting. >> well, a lot of comedy critics have failed comedians. well, that's have failed comedians. well, tha but at least they've done it. >> but at least they've done it. yes. so whether you can of yes. so whether you can sort of listen to word or it's like listen to the word or it's like i tv criticism as well. yes, i do tv criticism as well. yes, i've television not just i've made television not just here, like i can here, but so i feel like i can at least call attention to some of these things. having been inside the system. yeah. the question is, are female ex—footballers how relevant are they game? that's they to the male game? that's his is that the male his argument. is that the male game is different enough. but why should matter? why should it matter? >> you could do it >> like because you could do it vice versa, couldn't you vice versa, couldn't you? you could have female footballer could have a female footballer or female footballer or an ex female footballer commenting on a men's game. i

that would sense to me. that would make sense to me. >> that's what he's saying >> well, that's what he's saying is have a female ex is can you have a female ex footballer? >> well, they do it in tennis all the time. they do it in tennis. >> but again, there are people who that there there who might say that there there are different they are tennis. i would arguably even more. are different they are tennis. i wotlt's arguably even more. are different they are tennis. i wotlt's a arguably even more. are different they are tennis. i wotlt's a very jably even more. are different they are tennis. i wotlt's a very differentn more. are different they are tennis. i wotlt's a very different gamee. so. it's a very different game between female game and the between the female game and the male game is much male game. the male game is much more about power. it's about the serve, female serve, you know, whereas female is much more about the court. so there is argument to be made there is an argument to be made there. not saying that that there. i'm not saying that that makes but i think it makes him right, but i think it goes a argument of goes to a wider argument of whether anybody who doesn't do that specifically that thing specifically can then their or not. their opinion is valid or not. >> very interesting. okay. >> okay. very interesting. okay. let's question. let's get another question. this one is from ryan. >> good evening. is the national anthem offensive? >> mean the german ones? >> well, yeah, terms of the >> well, yeah, in terms of the sound of it, the melody, do you mean? >> i personally, i don't think it is. but i think in terms of the lyrics, well, this is bristol university, so they dropped the national from bristol university, so they drograduation ational from bristol university, so they drograduation ceremonies. from its graduation ceremonies. >> said it's got >> they said it's got the potential to offence. what potential to cause offence. what do that, josh? do you think of that, josh? i mean, is it just one of these other things where, you know, a

couple of people say, you know, this is a small story that we're blowing proportion is blowing out of proportion or is there something significant? blowing out of proportion or is the no,)mething significant? blowing out of proportion or is the no, itiething significant? blowing out of proportion or is the no, it ishing significant? blowing out of proportion or is the no, it is massivelyicant? >> no, it is massively significant. and it's significant. is it? and it's endemic of we've seen of endemic of what we've seen of this reason for this show. i think it's absolutely think it's an absolutely disgusting the idea disgusting decision. the idea that find the that someone could find the national anthem anthem offensive. cater offensive. and we have to cater to their needs. that's that's the problem, isn't it? >> it's disgusting. i mean, bruce, that is that the there bruce, that is that is the there is something changing in our culture whereby we are prioritising the feelings of people who offended by people who are offended by things, whereas sometimes it's to it's fine being to okay say it's fine being offended , but not going to offended, but we're not going to change you because change anything for you because the world revolve around you. no, completely agree. i do >> no, i completely agree. i do not understand. it's not understand. and again, it's a word came with earlier a word you came with earlier with arrogance to do with just stop people know, stop oil. people you know, why is offence more is your offence so much more important anything else ? important than anything else? you individual. and i'm you is one individual. and i'm not that people shouldn't not saying that people shouldn't have reply or their have the right to reply or their opinions offended even. opinions or to be offended even. >> wrong with being >> nothing wrong with being offended, have offended, but you have to be offended, but you have to be offended time. offended all the time. >> can not just kind of >> can you not just kind of think, do you know what i don't

like baked beans. i'm not going to eat them. >> it's so exhausting being offended i find this. >> i have friends who are knackered. honestly, of course, just whole time. just whining the whole time. i mean, so funny. mean, it's so funny. >> like when i put a tweet out and someone underneath complains about, oh, i'll never watch this, this, me so this, this, it makes me so angry. i just think calm down, it's fine. you have to tell everyone that upset about it's fine. you have to tell eveerust that upset about it's fine. you have to tell eveerust don't upset about it's fine. you have to tell eveerust don't watch upset about it's fine. you have to tell eveerust don't watch it.;et about it's fine. you have to tell eveerust don't watch it. and )0ul this. just don't watch it. and no to care. no one's going to care. >> specifically being offended by the national anthem. yeah, this is dreary, this is this is quite dreary, isn't it? have problems isn't it? we have problems in this is this country, but this is a great country. and the idea that someone's going to be offend by it. you can just go. it. i'm sorry, you can just go. >> wow. it. i'm sorry, you can just go. >> sorry. i feel i feel very strongly very, very strongly is getting very, very militant this. militant on this. >> no, i like militant. josh, we want more of that. >> do we know if the person that complained initially complained about this initially is country or not? is from this country or not? >> way? >> by the way? >> by the way? >> anymore. oh, no. >> by the way? >> well, nymore. oh, no. >> by the way? >> well, look, re. oh, no. >> by the way? >> well, look, on oh, no. >> by the way? >> well, look, on that|o. >> by the way? >> well, look, on that note, next on free speech nation, will the row over the elgin marbles between greece and the uk ever be resolved? >> don't anywhere

>> you're listening to gb news

radio . radio. >> welcome back to free speech nation. the argument over whether the uk should return the elgin marbles to greece broke out again last month after rishi sunak accused the greek prime minister of trying to grandstand over the parthenon sculptures. sunak defended cancelling a meeting with the greek pm and said it had become clear the meeting was not to discuss substantive issues for the future. well will there ever be an end to this dispute? i'm delighted to be joined by writer and author tiffany jenkins . and author tiffany jenkins. welcome to the show, tiffany . welcome to the show, tiffany. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> now, tiffany has written this fantastic book, and i read this recently and i would urge everyone to read it. this is called keeping their marbles, but it's a book that's not just about the elgin marbles. you also all sorts of other also cover all sorts of other aspects repati creation for aspects of repati creation for museums . but aspects of repati creation for museums. but let's just start with the elgin marbles. elgin took or brought them. they took these or brought them. they

are now in the british museum. they've been there ever since. what's the background to this? why? because was always why? because it was always controversial, wasn't it? >> the acropolis and the >> the acropolis itself and the parthenon was controversial when it was first built by pericles in 432 bc. >> so this goes way back. >> so this goes way back. >> really? yes a long history to it. i mean, it was controversial at the time because it was a very flamboyant expensive very flamboyant and expensive project. it would have been project. and it would have been a kind of a knock back to the persians who they'd just had a war with. it was it was a sort of trophy after a war. yes come the 19th century, we greece wasn't a state at that stage. it wasn't a state at that stage. it was under the ottoman empire. so many travellers hadn't been able to get there . the turks were to get there. the turks were having wars with venice . but having wars with venice. but finally sort of come the 1800s, late 17 century, late 1700s, early 1800s, you have a kind of opening up and you also have a particular moment where people began to get interested in antiquity up until that point, they weren't really that

interested . and, you know, when interested. and, you know, when the museum was first the british museum was first opened, full objects opened, it was full of objects and artefacts from the voyages of there was no of discovery. there was no antiquity yes at that very antiquity in yes at that very moment. it was also used as a garrison by the turks. and there was a mosque in there in the parthenon. in the parthenon . it parthenon. in the parthenon. it was ruined. yes. i mean, it was just a ruin. and people were taking bricks and parts of it for their houses and grinding it up and all the rest of it. yes. so it's not at what we recognise today as this sort of an archaeological site. >> that's very interesting because you mentioned in the book, i didn't before book, and i didn't know before reading that even at reading your book that even at the lord elgin wasn't sure the time lord elgin wasn't sure about taking the marbles, but he decided to preserve decided to do so to preserve them. he felt they were actually in to be they remained in danger to be if they remained in danger to be if they remained in they were in danger. in athens, they were in danger. >> were also >> and the french were also eyeing up, as were eyeing them up, as were the germans . yes. he may have germans. yes. so he may have kind it may have been for kind of it may have been for sort of self—aggrandisement it was originally for his home. yes. then it kind of they yes. but then it kind of they just became overcome by the beauty it. and they they beauty of it. and they they started it not just not

started taking it not just not just sort of drawings and casts. they did take a few from the from the building. >> and one of the things you trace your book is impact trace in your book is the impact of marbles in of the parthenon marbles in london on the artistic community. you know, on the very idea of aesthetics. you know, it's very, very important that they i suppose, and they were there, i suppose, and they were there, i suppose, and they did preserve them. >> definitely preserved >> they definitely preserved them. the interesting them. i think the interesting thing about when they arrived in london were initially london and they were initially at in park lane is that at his home in park lane is that people wrote about what they were actually like because they had this idea of what they were like. but when they actually saw the real things , in a way they the real things, in a way they were disappointed. oh, really? yes. hadn't they yes. because they hadn't they had a you know, those roman sculptures that they've got all their arms. they're really poised. they're really white. and then these battered greek sculptures with half an arm kind of left on the floor somewhere , of left on the floor somewhere, they're much more dynamic and vibrant as sculptures. yes so there's a big row over them as to whether they're any good or

not. there was a discussion about actually restoring them and sanding down and all and sanding them down and all the of it. the rest of it. >> yes. didn't they clean them in a very bad way? >> that was 1930. that was later. but come moment, later. so but come this moment, you shift. you have you have this shift. you have this taste away from this shift in taste away from rome, all the collectors rome, which all the collectors are obsessed with, towards towards athens. and this towards ancient athens. and this sort romantic sort of much more romantic feeling. byron felt it was >> now, byron felt it was vandalism to take these . vandalism to take these. >> he did. and there was that sort of keeping with that sort of in keeping with that kind romantic ideal, sort of in keeping with that kind romantic ideal , there kind of romantic ideal, there was that actually they was a sense that actually they should be just allowed to crumble further. didn't crumble further. byron didn't want go into the want them to go into the acropolis or anything want them to go into the acrothat, or anything want them to go into the acrothat, which or anything want them to go into the acrothat, which obviously hing like that, which obviously didn't he wanted to didn't exist. he wanted them to just right. okay. eroded just decay right. okay. eroded by time. >> dispute has been >> so this dispute has been going a long time. there have going on a long time. there have been arguments from the very moment brought moment that elgin brought them back rowing back and we're still rowing about it's become about it today. and it's become about it today. and it's become a politicised idea. now, i a very politicised idea. now, i have also read have to say, i also read christopher hitchens books on book on the parthenon book on the on the parthenon marbles marbles, marbles or the elgin marbles, even call them is even what you call them is contentious. and i have to contentious. yes. and i have to say i was persuaded i was reading it and i was persuaded.

i thought, okay, particularly aesthetically, been the aesthetically, i've been to the acropolis museum. seen the acropolis museum. i've seen the remaining i did remaining marbles. and i did think myself how wonderful it think to myself how wonderful it would have in one would be to have them all in one place view of the place with the view of the parthenon, the acropolis, parthenon, of the acropolis, over way that persuade over the way that did persuade me. but then reading your book over the way that did persuade me. lyut then reading your book over the way that did persuade me. i was1en reading your book over the way that did persuade me. i was persuaded| your book over the way that did persuade me. i was persuaded to>ur book over the way that did persuade me. i was persuaded to your)ok and i was persuaded to your point view. so i'm very point of view. so i'm very undecided issue. so undecided on this issue. so could summarise what is your could you summarise what is your argument for keeping the marbles in uk? in the uk? >> i mean, i think it's reasonable to be persuaded either way. go back and forth. i was in athens over the summer and museum, the acropolis and the museum, the acropolis museum elegant and there you museum is elegant and there you do see the acropolis itself. yes. and it makes sense of the acropolis. it does. it also makes sense of that kind of particular moment of the parthenon sculptures , because parthenon sculptures, because you see the sculptures that came before it, they're really static and kind stiff and almost and kind of stiff and almost like kind of dolls or like kind of robot dolls or something . and then something. and then the parthenon sculptures and parthenon sculptures come up and they around and horses they leaping around and horses have pulsing veins on their long nose and all the rest of it. so you do get a particular sense of place and origin there. but in

the british museum, you get a different story that is complementary and i think you see it if you walk into the british museum, you you kind of walk the egyptian walk through the egyptian galleries, the persian galleries, the persian galleries, you know, the assyrians and the of the assyrians and the kind of the kind enemy of athens. and you kind of enemy of athens. and you see through through comparison how distinctive the parthenon . how distinctive the parthenon. >> absolutely. >> absolutely. >> yes. so does it better help us to better understand the parthenon in the british museum ? parthenon in the british museum? without question, it does in a way that it can't. at the acropolis museum and vice versa, you know, so it's complementary. >> but i suppose a lot of the debate been reduced this debate has been reduced to this idea museums are idea that museums are effectively driving imperialism. idea that museums are effecyou.y driving imperialism. idea that museums are effecyou.y drivithe mperialism. idea that museums are effecyou.y drivithe argumentn. idea that museums are effecyou.y drivithe argument in now you make the argument in your that they benefited your book that they benefited from they your book that they benefited from drive they your book that they benefited from drive it. they your book that they benefited from drive it. is they your book that they benefited from drive it. is reductive didn't drive it. is it reductive to say that museums are effectively centres where we present the spoils of conquest and that we should therefore send them back ? send them back? >> i don't. i think we have to look at what museums actually do do, which is help us understand particular cultures and their particular cultures and their particular moments through

comparison . they take us out of comparison. they take us out of our ordinary lives when we go in to see them and almost act like a time machine , you know, they a time machine, you know, they can actually teach us a little bit about imperialism and colonialism. yes. although it has be said, it was the has to be said, it was the ottomans in the case of greece. well, right . and well, that's right. and obviously parthenon itself obviously the parthenon itself was built not just when athens was built not just when athens was at its most democratic , but was at its most democratic, but as its most imperial. was at its most democratic, but as its most imperial . yes. and as its most imperial. yes. and elgin sort of built it and all the rest of it. >> so it's morally complicated. it's morally complicated. and in elgin, seek permission from the ottomans. yes >> and he got it. he got a firman. but you know, permission today is very different when you have kind contracts the have kind of contracts the size of elephant. of course. of an elephant. yes, of course. everything and all the re st. rest. >> so what you make of this >> so what do you make of this argument? you know, because museums around world are museums around the world are facing at the facing this reckoning at the moment. we return everything moment. do we return everything and feel that and if because do you feel that museums become essentially museums have become essentially politicised moment? politicised at the moment? >> it's important >> i think it's important to note culture always note that culture has always been political. when you had the vision that we have of the

acropolis. today is a 19th century vision with the bavarian monarchy seeking to show that the new greek state was actually not just a kind of new invention. it kind of it it it went back centuries equally, when britain acquired the marbles, there was a sense that it would restore some sort of democratic ideal within britain. so there's politics around. but now in a way, there's kind of it's all instrument and there's no understanding of ancient athens. i mean, the interesting thing about this discussion recently with the greek prime minister and rishi sunak was that it had absolutely nothing to do with the parthenon. you learned nothing. and i think we need to get back to a situation where actually museums can tell us about about the past, not moralise or lecture us, which is what they're doing now, and which i don't think anybody really likes. whatever side of the political spectrum you're on. >> but hasn't that argument been lost in a way, because i can't go to a museum these days without being lectured by these

little by little placards that appear by various even various artefacts or even artworks, how artworks, just telling me how evil was , you know, evil the artist was, you know, and wrong you to look at it. >> it's a it.- >> it's a it's it.— >> it's a it's a very it. >> it's a it's a very serious problem. it's something that's beenin problem. it's something that's been in the making for probably about 40 years. yes i think what's to what's really important to understand about the repatriation that repatriation argument is that in many those calling for many cases, those calling for repatriation most loudly and most passionately are actually western curators, right? they're not, you know, active archivists or indigenous groups or whatever . it's sort of there's this kind of let's chuck them out of the doom of let's chuck them out of the door, which is one of the things you're having at the moment with the benin bronzes. so there's this sort internal crisis . this sort of internal crisis. yes, yes. they haven't been captured. almost internal. are you are you suggesting >> are you are you suggesting that social justice activists like to speak on other people's behalf? outrageous like to speak on other people's behalf? outricertainly do. but >> yes, they certainly do. but my is it's come from my point is, is it's come from within. they i don't think they've been captured. i think they've been captured. i think they of they've birthed it. they sort of they've birthed it. yes. a way, they've yes. i mean, in a way, they've created activists from created the activists from without. yes and there's a wonderful story about an anthropologist in america

returning some human remains, which have also been subject to great controversy, to a tribe and the person who's receiving them is interviewed . and he them is interviewed. and he says, well, we didn't really want them, but it would be rude not to because this guy was so kind of enthusiastic . and so kind of enthusiastic. and so there's this sort of that dynamic is very strong, profound. but i think the reassuring thing is if you want to kind of my perspective on whether we should be optimistic or pessimistic is that i think the majority of audience voices do not like it . and the objects do not like it. and the objects themselves still speak . so if themselves still speak. so if you go to the duveen galleries and look at the elgin marbles, they will still you they will still tell you something athens . you something about athens. you know, 2500 years ago, regardless of the social justice absolute right. >> tiffany jenkins, thank you so much for joining >> tiffany jenkins, thank you so much forjoining me tonight. much for joining me tonight. thank you . and next on free thank you. and next on free speech nation should trans inmates in prisons be allowed to work? and party in the female estate ? don't go anywhere .

i was, you know, i was your feral, feral little kid on the street, really in the east end . street, really in the east end. welcome back to free speech nation. >> with me, andrew doyle. later in the show, i'll be turning agony. uncle with the help of my wonderful panel, bruce devlin and howie and we're going and josh howie and we're going to help deal with your to help you deal with your unfiltered dilemmas if you've got problems at all, then got any problems at all, then just email at gb views just email us at gb views gbnews.com our best gbnews.com and we'll do our best to answer your problems a new scottish service policy scottish prison service policy will mostly keep trans inmates with a history of violence against women out of female scottish jails. but to according a new report, the inmates could still allowed to mingle with still be allowed to mingle with female the report female prisoners. the report says transgender people in custody be provided. the custody should be provided. the opportunity supported opportunity and supported to work towards being accommodated in that aligns with in an estate that aligns with their affirmed gender. so that on release to the community they have had the opportunity to live

with their with those who share their affirmed gender. those trans prisoners deemed too dangerous to be given a permanent swap into the female estate could also offered visitation also be offered visitation rights women's jails to allow rights to women's jails to allow them mingle with female them to mingle with female inmates . them to mingle with female inmates. here's them to mingle with female inmates . here's another inmates. here's another quotation an individualised approach was also seen to offer flex ability to the management of transgender individuals in prison. while it may be necessary to accommodate transgender individuals in a prison which does not align with their gender, there may their affirmed gender, there may be ways supporting be other ways of supporting their gender identity. for example, access to work, example, through access to work, parties, activities or even programs with others of their gender identity. by participating in activities and programs in that estate. while remained housing in the estate which aligns with their gender assigned birth, where it is assigned at birth, where it is deemed safe to do so. for the individual and for others. now prison leaders in scotland have also accused secrecy prison leaders in scotland have also rulingccused secrecy prison leaders in scotland have also rulingccusethey secrecy prison leaders in scotland have also rulingccusethey willacy prison leaders in scotland have also rulingccusethey will no after ruling that they will no longer confirm the number of male bodied transgender inmates serving sentences in women's jails . the director of keep jails. the director of keep pfisons jails. the director of keep prisons single sex, kate coleman, joins me now . welcome

coleman, joins me now. welcome to show, kate . okay there's to the show, kate. okay there's a lot to get through here, but it sounds like the authorities in scotland are saying that to a degree, we need to accommodate people according to their beliefs about they are as beliefs about who they are as opposed the biologic reality opposed to the biologic reality of they are. that a fair assessment? >> i mean, i think it goes further than that, actually . if further than that, actually. if you start unpicking what's actually with this actually happening with this policy . and i think the first policy. and i think the first thing to say is that the policy document itself is extremely light there's light on details. there's nothing of substance to it. you only uncover the reality of what's going on. if you read the supplementary documentation, the equality and human rights impact assessment and the data protection impact assessment . so protection impact assessment. so what is that reality? it's hidden. reality that hidden. so the reality is that at heart this is at the heart of this policy is the presumption in that this group of men and i'm going to call them men because they are men who assume a trans gender identity , we should be identity, we should be facilitated and as much as possible to the highest degree as possible to being allowed to

go into the female estate and where where that will enable them to be transferred there. thatis them to be transferred there. that is what should happen. and even for that very small number of prisoners that the scottish pfison of prisoners that the scottish prison service will deem to be posing an unacceptable level of risk to women in prison, that it appears that they should still be allowed to go there, you know, for day release, for activity . as for programs penned activity. as for programs penned for release in order that they can practice being, women can i ask it's just i'm disgusted . ask it's just i'm disgusted. >> have the women in these prisons being consulted about what they think about it because it just sounds to me like you're prioritising their or they are prioritising their or they are prioritising their or they are prioritising the feelings of those . my those individuals. my understanding that a lot of understanding is that a lot of the women prisons are the women in prisons are particularly vulnerable. a lot of experienced of them have experienced domestic violence of them have experienced don hands violence of them have experienced don hands of violence of them have experienced donhands of men violence of them have experienced donhands of men . violence of them have experienced donhands of men . bluntnce of them have experienced donhands of men . blunt force the hands of men. blunt force trauma to the head, all sorts of horrendous things. and there's a reason why they don't want to be around men. yes, well, exactly. >> i mean, it's not rocket

science. there's a reason why prisons are segregated by sex or, you know , they're not. but or, you know, they're not. but there's a reason why on the face of it, they are segregated by sex. it's not rocket science. we know why that is as a society. but you're quite right where you have the preferences, the feelings, the desire , ears of feelings, the desire, ears of this particular group of men . it this particular group of men. it seems that the scottish prison service is willing to bend over backwards to accommodate it. and i think what we can contrast this with is the ministry of justice. they also released a revised policy back in march and they take a very, very different perspective . and they've had a perspective. and they've had a very radical shift where they're now placing the safety of women right at the heart of the policy. is it perfect ? no, it's policy. is it perfect? no, it's not. will it see no men being in women's prisons says it's unlikely, but it is still a dramatic shift. so for that policy , we see that any man with policy, we see that any man with any conviction for a violent or

sexual offence, not just against women, cannot be accommodated in the female estate separately to that and separately from any consideration of conviction, any man who has intact male genhaua man who has intact male genitalia cannot be accommodated in the female estate exceptions to that can only ever be considered if there is the very highest degree of confidence in only the very lowest level of risk to women in prison. and then it has to be signed off by then it has to be signed off by the director of hmp, his majesty's prison, and probation service. and then it has to go to the minister for sign off so you have more restrictions. you have the safety of women at its heart and you have that level of a personal accountable entity. whereas with the scottish prison service, the starting presumption is, well, no , we presumption is, well, no, we should be facilitating these men to go into women's prisons. and if they're not safe enough to be housed there on a permanent basis, then we should still let them access activities. and you know , to use, as you say, know, to use, as you say, vulnerable women in prison as

props , as non—consensual props props, as non—consensual props in order that this group of men can practice being women is it's obscene. i think a lot of people watching will be surprised . watching will be surprised. >> and, you know, whenever we cover this on the show, as we do a lot , a lot of people comment a lot, a lot of people comment and they had no idea this and say they had no idea this was going on because, you know, you take case adam you take the case of adam graham, who double rapist who graham, who a double rapist who decided identify as isla decided to identify as isla bryson housed in a bryson and then was housed in a female prison they were female prison while they were making a risk assessment. what risk assessment do you need more than the fact that he's a man with a double conviction for r ape? rape? >> well, exactly. exactly. it shouldn't even be a question. >> so why is it happening? >> so why is it happening? >> why is it happening? well, that's an excellent question , that's an excellent question, isn't i mean, you know, isn't it? i mean, you know, scotland , as you know, scotland has, as you know, pardoned many scottish people in the but it pretty the audience, but it has pretty much the dogs, hasn't much gone to the dogs, hasn't it? know, in terms of these it? you know, in terms of these issues, in terms of this issue, a lot scottish people a lot of scottish people would agree to has agree with you to be fair, has gone to the dogs. i think. i mean, we know going back to when

the first scottish prison service policy on this was was put in place in two 2014, in the run up to that, there was very much a concerted effort to get this past in prisons because, you know, as you say, you know, prisons, it's very hidden. you don't know what's going on. you know, the isla bryson splashed across the front page are a rarity . yes. and, you know , rarity. yes. and, you know, unfortunately, most people in the general public, they don't care about prisoners and they don't care about women in prison . you know. so that might be an easy win. it's an easy win. and if you can make it work in in a prison, then you can set that precedent and you can start rolling it out to the sectors and the services where people might care more . so schools and might care more. so schools and hospitals, nursing homes, you know, sports centres , you know, know, sports centres, you know, those kind of areas you can go, well, we've got this precedent. it works in prison . you know, it works in prison. you know, the reason why it works in

prison is because, you know , the prison is because, you know, the reports aren't coming out . and reports aren't coming out. and as you quite rightly said, you know , the scottish prison know, the scottish prison service has now changed their policy on data reporting and they will no longer be publishing the number of male prisoners held in the female estate. so we won't be able to track this. we will not know what impact this new policy has and we will not be able to find out how many of the ones who are deemed not safe enough to be housed in the female estate are still being allowed over for , still being allowed over for, you know, work parties. you know, what ever it is that they're doing. >> so what can we do about this? i mean, surely we need these authorities to record data accurately. that's clearly something that matters. >> matters. it matters >> it matters. it matters a great deal . i >> it matters. it matters a great deal. i think at the moment . i mean, this this policy moment. i mean, this this policy is live now , but it will be is live now, but it will be fully implemented in february of next year . so, you know, we've next year. so, you know, we've got a 2 or 3 month window of opportunity to apply as much

political pressure as possible to get this changed. yeah well, good luck with it. >> kate comber thank you so much for joining me tonight. >> kate comber thank you so much for joining me tonight . and forjoining me tonight. and coming up next on free speech nation, it'll be time for our monthly culture roundup with historian and writer david oldroyd bolt . see you in oldroyd bolt. see you in a couple of minutes .

welcome back to free speech nation. it's time now for our monthly look at culture and the arts with historian and writer david oldroyd bolt, who . so, david oldroyd bolt, who. so, david, welcome back . always david, welcome back. always a pleasure to talk to you. what's been happening this month? >> well, the poet benjamin zephaniah has died aged 65 very shortly after being diagnosed with a brain tumour. and zephaniah is probably most zephaniah is probably the most important black poet and writer in britain of the past half

century. mean, really century. i mean, he really brought poetry, performance poetry public poetry into public consciousness. he was a fascinating story. he was born in birmingham and he was one of eight children in an abusive family. when his mother escaped, he was the only child to go with her. his mother had been beaten often by his father, and they had to essentially go from place to place to escape his father. he was involved in crime as a child, went to borstal and then was to prison was later sentenced to prison for burglary and was functionally illiterate until he was in his early 20s. incredible from childhood, had begun writing poetry in his head and he once said that being a poet in birmingham as an 11 year old black kid at that time was as difficult as coming out as gay and when you found another poet, it was something he would talk about a sort something about and a sort of something that he would say, you know, show me mine. i'll show you yours, as it were. and there was one his lines, which is i one of his lines, which is i used think nurses were women. used to think nurses were women. i think police were men. i used to think police were men. i used to think police were men. iused i used to think police were men. i used to think police were men. i used to poets were i used to think police were men. i used until poets were i used to think police were men.

i used until i poets were i used to think police were men. i used until i became nere i used to think police were men. i used until i became one of boring until i became one of them. think shows there them. yes i think shows there was cultural clash within was that cultural clash within himself about it. >> was one of those poets >> he was one of those poets that you would always on that you would always see on mainstream was mainstream television. he was very he did. very visible about it. he did. he lot of good for the he did a lot of good for the idea of poetry, which became very, you say, people thought very, as you say, people thought it boring even himself. it was boring even himself. >> bringing young black >> and for bringing young black men into the idea of literacy and engagement literacy, he and engagement with literacy, he wrote novels specifically and engagement with literacy, he wrappeal novels specifically and engagement with literacy, he wr appeal to yvels specifically and engagement with literacy, he wr appeal to that specifically and engagement with literacy, he wr appeal to that audience.ly to appeal to that audience. yes. and he himself, as and because he himself, as i say, been functionally say, had been functionally illiterate his early 20s, illiterate until his early 20s, when and went when he moved to london and went to school in to night school in newham in east london. very east london. he was very concerned with the fact that poor boys, particularly poor black much more black boys, were much more likely be illiterate much likely to be illiterate and much more to be more likely, therefore to be disengaged generally. a very sad loss. what >> yes, a very sad loss. what else has been happening this month you're particularly month that you're particularly interested in? >> again, talking interested in? >>identity again, talking interested in? >>identity in again, talking interested in? >>identity in the again, talking interested in? >>identity in the arts,1, talking of identity in the arts, there is a film about to be released on netflix called maestro about the consequential figure in the most consequential figure in american music. leonard bernstein bernstein bernstein and leonard bernstein was or a composer, a was a conductor or a composer, a pianist. i'm sure your viewers will know his works, particularly west side story. yes, of course. was an

yes, of course. which was an enormous hit. and he also wrote on the waterfront and on the town and candide and the chichester psalms and the age of anxiety on and on at anxiety. it goes on and on at every point in american history. after was there at after the war, he was there at the funeral jfk. conducted the funeral of jfk. he conducted mahler's symphony. mahler's resurrection symphony. yes in israel after the six—day war, conducted in berlin war, he conducted in berlin after the fall of the berlin wall. was there. he was this wall. he was there. he was this enormous figure. >> of those composers >> he's one of those composers who of cross the who can really sort of cross the boundanes who can really sort of cross the boundaries between real high art and popular culture. mean, and popular culture. i mean, west story, we all west side story, we can all hum the tunes, there's the tunes, but there's incredibly complex. similarly the tunes, but there's increcandide,1plex. similarly the tunes, but there's increcandide, exceptionalarly the tunes, but there's increcandide, exceptional music . with candide, exceptional music. >> i mean, it is music of the very highest artistic standard. he was pilloried by some because they selling they thought he was selling himself actually what himself out. but actually what he bringing truly he was doing was bringing truly great music to people everywhere . i mean, the film of west side story must have been seen by, i don't know, a billion, 2 billion people now since its release. >> and of course, a new version by steven spielberg as well. very much so. what what has been the controversy the latest the controversy with the latest film? it hasn't gone film? because it hasn't gone smoothly, it?

smoothly, has it? >> there has been some idea. >> no, there has been some idea. bradley stars as bradley cooper, the who stars as bernstein director, bernstein and is the director, decided was going to decided that he was going to wear a prosthetic nose to make himself like bernstein himself look more like bernstein , look at photos , who, if you look at the photos of him, a very large nose. of him, had a very large nose. yes. but there are some particularly jewish people who have decided that this was akin to blackface. they've called it jew face. so tracy oberman, jew face. so tracy ann oberman, the and the editor of the actor here and the editor of the actor here and the editor of the jewish chronicle, jake wallis have both said wallis simons, have both said that they thought that this was unnecessary, he should have unnecessary, that he should have acted as bernstein without needing . however, needing to wear it. however, others, bernstein , others, including bernstein, three children, have said that they this part they thought that this was part of becoming the character. they had no problem it at all, had no problem with it at all, and they didn't consider it a sort of racist thing. >> i mean, i understand both sides of the argument in that respect, but but think when respect, but but i do think when it things like that, it comes to things like that, it's to me that the it's quite clear to me that the actor was doing his utmost to look and to resemble as closely as i mean, as possible. bernstein i mean, i think can agree he wasn't think we can all agree he wasn't going out his cause offence. >> yes. he wasn't doing what old productions of the merchant of

venice portraying venice did and portraying shylock this enormous, shylock with this enormous, grotesque obviously grotesque and obviously caricatured was caricatured nose. yes, this was not jewish not some general jewish character. signify character. the nose signify jewishness. likeness character. the nose signify je\ashness. likeness character. the nose signify je\a man.s. likeness character. the nose signify je\a man who likeness character. the nose signify je\a man who existed likeness character. the nose signify je\a man who existed andzness character. the nose signify je\a man who existed and looked of a man who existed and looked like this. and i think, therefore, there the artistic therefore, there is the artistic case being case for it. of course, being aware sensitivities. but the aware of sensitivities. but the fact that bernstein's own children who are jewish have given imprimatur, given it their imprimatur, i think shows that it's fine. there's of charleton that there's a lot of charleton that we have these debates surrounding particularly works of culture when the of popular culture when the movies, instance, things movies, for instance, things like that. >> do you think that this detracts from these works of art? i we get into these debates, it can overshadow it. >> and the other thing that's been criticised about the film by people have praised it in by people who have praised it in general is that concentrates general is that it concentrates too bernstein's private too much on bernstein's private life. an absolutely life. he was an absolutely flagrantly and his wife flagrantly bisexual and his wife was very much hurt by this, as opposed to concentrating on the enormous effect of his music making and his educational programs and so on. >> it is a biopic, isn't it? >> but it is a biopic, isn't it? >> but it is a biopic, isn't it? >> this is a story for the >> yeah, this is a story for the cinema, think it is, from what cinema, i think it is, from what i've seen far. obviously it's

i've seen so far. obviously it's not out yet. it's out on december, the 20th on netflix. it to his story, but it is faithful to his story, but there some human there has to be some human interest, it were. it can't interest, as it were. it can't just be a documentary because they already. absolutely. just be a documentary because the david already. absolutely. just be a documentary because the david oldroyd absolutely. just be a documentary because the david oldroyd bolt, lutely. a >> david oldroyd bolt, always a pleasure. thank you . pleasure. thank you. thank you. so this is the end of the first hour on free speech nation. very sad. but don't go anywhere because there is a lot more to come between now and 9:00, including barrister dennis kavanagh, who joins me to discuss trans ideology discuss whether trans ideology is a threat to gay kids. discuss whether trans ideology is a threat to gay kids . and is a threat to gay kids. and also the editor of spiked magazine, tom slater, who's going to be discussing new going to be discussing a new danish law that prohibits the burning of religious books. see you shortly . a brighter outlook you shortly. a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> hello, welcome to your latest gb news weather. >> i'm ellie glaisyer. gb news weather. >> i'm ellie glaisyer . unsettled >> i'm ellie glaisyer. unsettled weather continues as low pressure remains very much in charge of our weather over the next couple of days. storm fergus situated out to the west,

slowly moves its way towards us through evening and into through sunday evening and into the start of monday, bringing with very with it some very heavy rainfall, particularly to northern of england where northern parts of england where the ground is already very saturated. could some saturated. so we could see some localised flooding through the early monday morning. early hours of monday morning. some winds some strong winds too, particularly across western wales through the bristol wales and through the bristol channel wales and through the bristol channel, see channel, where we could see gusts miles an hour. gusts up to 60 miles an hour. temperatures in the south generally around 7 or 8 degrees. but a much colder night across northern parts of scotland where we see icy we could see some icy conditions, particularly across we could see some icy con southwest rticularly across we could see some icy con southwest of ularly across we could see some icy con southwest of scotland oss the southwest of scotland through morning . a cloudy through monday morning. a cloudy start across the northern half of the uk on monday. some showers continuing along those eastern coast of scotland, but generally will be a much generally monday will be a much more most of us. more settled day for most of us. plenty sunshine head plenty of sunshine as we head through afternoon and with through the afternoon and with some lighter winds, temperatures around degrees across around 10 to 12 degrees across the feeling the south. it'll be feeling a little more pleasant we've the south. it'll be feeling a little over; pleasant we've the south. it'll be feeling a little over recent ant we've the south. it'll be feeling a little over recent days we've the south. it'll be feeling a little over recent days . we've the south. it'll be feeling a little over recent days . tuesday seen over recent days. tuesday starts a much cloudier picture, though. rain continues to push its way northwards through tuesday morning, again bringing us some very heavy rainfall to

eastern parts of scotland where, again, we could see some localised flooding to that localised flooding due to that saturated further south, saturated ground. further south, obe, of heavy showers obe, plenty of heavy showers pushing in from the southwest and a blustery feeling day and quite a blustery feeling day to remaining unsettled through tuesday and wednesday. but hints of something a little more settled on horizon settled are on the horizon through and friday. through thursday and friday. that a warm feeling inside from boxt boilers sponsors of weather on .

gb news. >> there is plenty more still to come on free speech nation tonight, the media are calling male rapists female again, dennis kavanagh joins me to discuss whether trans ideology is a threat to gay kids. spiked editor tom slater will discuss a new danish law that prohibits the burning of religious books. but first, let's get a news

update from sophia . update from sophia. >> good evening. i'm sophia wenzler in the newsroom. gb news understands. tomorrow tory mps will give their verdict on whether the rwanda bill is workable. can servative mp sir bill cash will present the findings ahead of the crunch. second vote on tuesday. the prime minister has come under pressure after it was discovered he paid £240 million towards the rwanda plan without a single flight taking off. tory sources say the mps will decide whether to support the legislation tomorrow or if necessary, hold a second meeting ahead of the vote . met police say two teenage girls have been arrested on suspicion of robbery after a woman was attacked in london. a warning this video shows distressing images. footage of the attack has been circulating on social media showing the 20 year old walking in stamford hill and then being robbed and

beaten. the woman who is from the orthodox jewish community was reportedly left bruised but didn't need to go to hospital . didn't need to go to hospital. met. police say it's keeping an open mind about the motive for the attack, are treating it the attack, but are treating it as possible hate crime . as a possible hate crime. mcdonald's has apologised after footage posted on social media showed a security guard mopping the floor where a homeless man was sitting . the video was taken was sitting. the video was taken on victoria street in london last night and shows the man trying to move his sleeping bag and duvet away from the water as it seeped underneath . in the it seeped underneath. in the video, he says , leave me alone video, he says, leave me alone before one security guard kicks a blanket out of the way and splashes more water along the pavement . mcdonald's said it was pavement. mcdonald's said it was shocked and saddened by the footage . baroness michelle mone footage. baroness michelle mone says she made an error in publicly denying her links to the ppe firm medpro . it was the ppe firm medpro. it was awarded government contracts worth more than £200 million to supply personal protective equipment after she recommended

it to ministers. the national crime agency is investigating the firm and its connection to the firm and its connection to the conservative peer lady mone argues she is being used as a scapegoat by the government for its own covid failings . fresh its own covid failings. fresh weather warnings have been issued as storm fergus sweeps across the country. leitrim village in ireland has been hit by a possible tornado as homes and cars are seriously damaged. emergency services were called after high winds from storm meteren flattened , trees ripped meteren flattened, trees ripped up roofs and buildings and left debns up roofs and buildings and left debris scattered on the streets . debris scattered on the streets. yellow weather warnings and over 40 flood warnings have been issued across england and scotland . gale force winds are scotland. gale force winds are likely to hit south wales and areas around the bristol channel. this is gb news across the uk on tv in your car , on the uk on tv in your car, on your digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying play gb news and now it's back to free speech nation .

speech nation. >> welcome back to free speech nation. with me, andrew doyle. a shocking story appeared on the bbc news website yesterday . it bbc news website yesterday. it was about one naomi o'brien of tameside who had been jailed for directing a welsh man to abuse a four year old child . now the four year old child. now the headune four year old child. now the headline reads predator free woman who incited man to abuse child four jailed and what the article doesn't tell you is that naomi o'brien is a man. throughout the article, he's referred to with she her pronouns . you have to use the pronouns. you have to use the evidence of your own eyes to get the truth. and we've been here many times before. look at this horrific article from the bbc in march 2022. pensioner arrested after dismembered body found. the article begins with these lurid details. a pensioner has been arrested on suspicion of killing and dismembering a 68 year old woman she met online and an adult female torso was

found inside in a bag, inside a shopping trolley near 83 year old harvey marsland's apartment in brooklyn, new york. she has now been charged with second degree murder and concealment of a human corpse. marceline, her previously spent more than 50 years prison for killing two years in prison for killing two female friends. years in prison for killing two female friends . some of you female friends. some of you might sense something is amiss here. there are very few female serial killers and even fewer who target other women. it just doesn't sound like a woman's crime, does it ? and that's crime, does it? and that's because it isn't . you have to because it isn't. you have to read to the very bottom of this bbc article before the writer mentions that the killer had only quote recently identified as a woman . this detail is as a woman. this detail is presented as an aside, as though it was an inconsequential aspect of the case, but it's fairly crucial and the examples are endless. so according to journalists, this is a woman who was imprisoned for sexual assault . was imprisoned for sexual assault. this woman who was assault. this is a woman who was arrested for making bomb threats. this is a woman who was jailed for stabbing for jailed for stabbing and for false this is a false imprisonment. this is a woman who was jailed for paedophilic abuse. this is paedophilic abuse. and this is a woman exposed her penis and

woman who exposed her penis and used wheelie bin as a sex toy used a wheelie bin as a sex toy in public. so let's be truthful about this. all of these criminals are men and that shouldn't surprise us. men are far more likely to be criminals than women. there are currently 84,000 men in prison as compared with 3500 women. and with just 3500 women. and according to figures from the ministry justice, 98% of ministry of justice, 98% of those convicted of sex offences are male. and yet, if you believe the mainstream media, you'd think there'd been an exponential increase in the numbers of women committing sexual assaults. well you might say the media is just following the language used by the police and they have a point. and they would have a point. let's back to this week's let's go back to this week's news that a man calling himself naomi o'brien convicted naomi o'brien has been convicted for child abuse . so for inciting child abuse. so here's from de—man here's a statement from de—man aiden of the greater manchester police's online child abuse investigation team. this is a significant result for what is a very vulnerable and innocent four year old child who was subjected to multiple counts of abuse, but also for all the other children community other children in the community who subject to

who could have been subject to similar offending by a predatory female who was inciting others to commit acts of sexual harm against the most vulnerable in society. but there was no predatory female in this case, and the police know that . and and the police know that. and nor is there any legal obugafion nor is there any legal obligation for them to refer to o'brien as a woman. that's a fact that not many people realise . now, the guidance for realise. now, the guidance for the police is muddled at best and practised is completely inconsistent across the country. a freedom of information request by the group prisons single by the group keep prisons single sex found that of the 24 police forces who replied, 15 said they recorded suspects by gender identity and just two recalled on the basis of biological sex. in other words, the police appear to be making it up as they go along. when a suspect identifies as non binary. many police forces record that sex as indeterminate or non specified , indeterminate or non specified, even though non binary does not exist as a category in english law . as a result of all of this law. as a result of all of this crime statistics in the uk are being skewed and there's a very

simple solution to it all. just record suspects and criminals by biology sex. and if you must record gender identity, if a particular criminal claims to have such a thing , but record have such a thing, but record that separately . although why that separately. although why the metaphysical beliefs of criminals need to be recorded is beyond me. it's important that we have accurate crime statistics at the moment. we have no way of knowing how many of female rapists are of these female rapists are actually men. and it's also important that stop using important that we stop using male , that male male, that we stop male criminals from using this religion of gender identity as a loophole to be moved to women's prisons. so let's take adam graham, the double rapist who thought that wearing a dodgy wig and calling isla bryson and calling himself isla bryson might get him housed in the female estate and he was accommodated female prison accommodated in a female prison while the scottish government was conducting a risk assessment. risk assessment assessment. what risk assessment might one need? he's a double rapist , but might one need? he's a double rapist, but still, at least he didn't get away with it. unlike david thompson, the rapist and paedophile who himself paedophile who called himself karen and was then karen white and was then transferred to a women's prison

where he went on to sexually assault two female inmates. where he went on to sexually assault two female inmates . yes. assault two female inmates. yes. so what do we do about all of this? well, it would seem that the uk police are ideologically captured, but perhaps the media could start telling the truth. after all, there is no legal obugafion after all, there is no legal obligation for journalists to lie about the sex of a criminal of course, if they're quoting from a court case and a criminal has been referred to with different pronouns as they are obuged different pronouns as they are obliged to quote an accurately. but most of these articles are about criminals. so about convicted criminals. so there's no justification for the inaccuracy . media outlets inaccuracy. many media outlets claim that they're simply following style guides , but none following style guides, but none of style guides are of these style guides are compulsory after all, the associated press style guide in the us suggests that when referring to skin colour, the word black should be capitalised and the word white left in lowercase. but many , if not most lowercase. but many, if not most media outlets just ignore that because they recognise that it is it's ideologically driven is an it's ideologically driven and racially divisive. so why can't they do the same? in the case of gender or even ipso? the

independent press standards organisation does not mandate that journalists should use the preferred pronouns of criminals. now the guidelines do ask journalists to consider whether they have used the pronouns that they have used the pronouns that the individual uses to describe themselves, but it's absolutely not demanded . and however, one not demanded. and however, one of the things that ipso does clearly say in its guidance is this journalist should take care not to publish inaccurate and misleading information . often misleading information. often now it's the same for televised journalism. ofcom does not mandate it using preferred pronouns of criminals , which is pronouns of criminals, which is just as well because i'd rather not forced to lie to my not be forced to lie to my viewers. so given that it is wholly voluntary for media outlets do this, why do they outlets to do this, why do they keep on doing it? even right leaning newspapers are at it, so we can't really put this down to party politics. so to all those editors and journalists out there who are going along with this nonsense, would you this nonsense, i would ask you to please think again. this policy embarrassing , it's policy is embarrassing, it's unprofessional, and it's dangerous. you don't need to pretend that male sex offenders

are women. just because they say they are. you don't need to worry hurt feelings of worry about the hurt feelings of rapists and paedophiles . your rapists and paedophiles. your job to report the truth . so job is to report the truth. so stop lying to the public. take . stop lying to the public. take. so returning. i've got my studio guest this evening, bruce devlin and josh howie ijust guest this evening, bruce devlin and josh howie i just spoke about this problem that we have with the media misrepresent the truth. i mean, i often read these articles, as you know, you get you click through it says that a woman has been arrested or a woman has this or or a woman has done this or that. you think, wow, that's that. and you think, wow, that's really rare for women. you read it then by the end you're it and then by the end you're like, oh, it's a bloke. yeah yeah, so we do yeah, right. so what do we do about this? >> well, like say, they have >> well, like you say, they have to stop lying. but. but it's worse than that when you have to observe a way that observe taube news in a way that you're to filter the you're trying to filter the actual it. that you actual truth out of it. that you read a news all you're read a news story and all you're trying to do is actually get to the nub of it. and it's not just about this. it's like many ideologically captured arenas like trying to find out who

murdered somebody, the reasons they might have done it, if there was a homophobic attack. yes. you know, but you're reading it and you're trying to get to what actually get the clues to what actually happened. yeah, that's not what the media is there for. the media, whether it's newspapers, newspapers to tell us newspapers is meant to tell us this stuff. >> a really good example >> there's a really good example of so recently ireland, of that. so recently in ireland, there horrific murder of there was a horrific murder of that and was that young girl and there was a witness statement by a relative. i think it was her partner and the irish media redacted the witness statement because they were worried it might inflame racial tension because it was referring to the fact that the killer a migrant. but killer was a migrant. but it's not media'sjob killer was a migrant. but it's not media's job to not really the media's job to decide best for you to decide what is best for you to heat decide what is best for you to hear. the media's job is surely just to tell you the facts and trust the public to be able to that trust of the media, of the pubuc that trust of the media, of the public has what's absolutely disappeared last ten, disappeared over the last ten, 20 years. >> that's why you need a channel on, you know, like gb news that's that's coming on that's going to that's coming on hopefully pulling hopefully is at least pulling back this is what we back and saying this is what we believe be in this believe to be true in this situation. i'm not saying that

gb gets everything perfect, gb news gets everything perfect, but that the media but the fact is that the media are bringing this upon themselves. >> so this question, bruce, you know, people will say, know, a lot of people will say, you friend of mine you know, if a friend of mine transitions identifies as the transitions or identifies as the other sex, i'll happily use the pronouns want. that's fine. pronouns they want. that's fine. but rapists, but we're talking about rapists, serial have serial killers. why do we have to why do they deserve to respect why do they deserve our courtesy? understand our courtesy? i don't understand why aren't up front why the victims aren't up front and centre. >> that would be point. >> that would be my point. initially and we initially thing. and yeah, we can have a laugh at whether we think the wigs are dodgy and all that of thing. think the wigs are dodgy and all thaa of thing. think the wigs are dodgy and all thaa lot of thing. think the wigs are dodgy and all thaa lot of them. think the wigs are dodgy and all thaa lot of them are, let's be >> a lot of them are, let's be honest, back to trump, but what to just seems to be to we see, it just seems to be the fact that we're not focusing on have been wronged, on those who have been wronged, particularly in saying someone to year old. to abuse a four year old. >> i mean. >> i mean. >> right, exactly. i mean, so disgusting. >> so the guidelines, for instance, for the legal for for the the judges is that the guidelines they should guidelines say that they should use preferred use the preferred pronouns of someone, they've someone, even if they've committed a horrible crime. someone, even if they've conbutted a horrible crime. someone, even if they've con but again,|orrible crime. someone, even if they've con but again, |orri not crime. >> but again, it's not mandatory. course, if mandatory. and of course, if you're victim of a rape or you're the victim of a rape or a sexual assault, you don't want to have to call your attacker. she, you know, because that's

the kind extra humiliation she, you know, because that's the kthe extra humiliation she, you know, because that's the kthe horrendousniliation she, you know, because that's the kthe horrendous experience she, you know, because that's the ktialready1dous experience she, you know, because that's the ktialready had.; experience she, you know, because that's the ktialready had.; exsurely:e you've already had. so surely shouldn't saying shouldn't we just start saying that there is such a thing as as as biological reality, which matters to crime. matters when it comes to crime. but there's also thing but there's also a thing that some believe that they some people believe that they have a gender identity and that's a separate you that's a separate thing. you know, both can know, i think i think both can be of accommodated. why is be sort of accommodated. why is it then? it the case then? >> aren't we that this >> aren't we told that this isn't necessarily, you know, there's case there's no legally binding case in refer to people by in which to refer to people by their preferred pronouns or whatever. if you say, because i didn't know that until i'd heard that tonight. well, exactly. didn't know that until i'd heard tha no,|ight. well, exactly. didn't know that until i'd heard tha no,|ightmany., exactly. didn't know that until i'd heard tha no, lightmany people y. didn't know that until i'd heard tha no,|ightmany people do know >> no, not many people do know that. and it's particularly problem for the prison estate that. and it's particularly probit'si for the prison estate that. and it's particularly probit'si fparticularlyi estate and it's a particularly a particular for victims particular problem for victims of so to of sexual violence. so back to the media, you know, and this is something i'm really to something i'm really keen to emphasise, make emphasise, media outlets make a choice to do this. and, you know, you look at the daily know, you look at like the daily mail you expect them not to, mail and you expect them not to, but they go along with but they go, they go along with it leaning, right it as well. left leaning, right leaning. doesn't matter where leaning. it doesn't matter where they are. they all do. but there is reason why they should. so is no reason why they should. so is no reason why they should. so is it about journalists is it just about journalists being more? think being a bit more? well, i think a self respect. i'd be a bit more self respect. i'd be embarrassed if an article of

mine and i was mine was published and i was calling rapist. she or, you calling a rapist. she or, you know, if they changed copy know, if they changed my to copy make happen, make that happen, the undermining themselves. >> destroying themselves >> they're destroying themselves from you need strong from within and you need strong leadership of those leadership at the top of those institutions go , no, we're institutions to go, no, we're not going to do this. our job is not going to do this. ourjob is to print the truth and as you say, they can say this is the biological sex and this what biological sex and this is what this person identifies. >> easily say that. >> you could easily say that. absolutely. and i fear that this as doing a horrendous as well is doing a horrendous thing. i've trans thing. i mean, i've had trans people the who say this people on the show who say this is doing horrendous things for trans because is it trans people because it is it paints all in a bad light. paints them all in a bad light. it's this is the thing we're focusing on a minority of people. >> you know, this is a very i'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the vast majority of trans people aren't people that i know aren't predators aren't deviants predators aren't sexual deviants , whatever. , aren't, you know, whatever. and just want to live their lives. so when we're focusing in on are looking a on this, we are looking at a very, very percentage. i'm very, very small percentage. i'm not it's not not saying that it's not a problem, but i agree you. problem, but i agree with you. it gives regular trans people, you everyday joes , a bad reputation. >> i think i think that's >> i think that's i think that's absolutely right. and yeah,

absolutely right. and jos. yeah, sorry. >> @ know e'- @ know if they're joe's. >> no, they might not be joe said offensive, but of course. yeah, is absolutely yeah, i and that is absolutely right. are dealing with right. we are dealing with a very minority on the very small minority but on the same at the same time, we're also big also dealing with a big majority. we're talking about women. women are of women. women are 50% of the population. talking population. we're talking about gay as well who are being gay people as well who are being affected this. affected by this. >> safeguarding issue as >> it's a safeguarding issue as much these other these other much as these other these other things. have these kids, things. and you have these kids, if taught if they're being taught this stuff, oh, a woman. so stuff, oh, oh, it's a woman. so i don't need to as worried or i don't need to be as worried or i don't need to be as worried or i know what it's just it's i don't know what it's just it's just wrong. yeah, it's just it's wrong. yeah, it's wrong. certainly it's wrong. and certainly when it's coming news sources. coming from our news sources. >> yeah. okay. i've got into the habit now of just reading multiple stories because multiple news stories because i know they all know that they won't all be accurate. have kind of accurate. you have to kind of balance out. it's almost like balance it out. it's almost like a detective thing, like, so i'll read from the left and read something from the left and right like, oh, it's right and i'll be like, oh, it's the truth. somewhere in the in the truth. somewhere in the in the middle. the truth. somewhere in the in the you're a. the truth. somewhere in the in the you're not jessica fletcher. >> you're not jessica fletcher. i fletcher, which has i am jessica fletcher, which has always ambition. always been my ambition. >> i'll be honest. >> well, and i'll be honest. well, do i? when they well, do i? well when they remake murder, she wrote, i want to i to be there. well, to be. i want to be there. well, yeah, yeah, i'll be safe.

wonderful great, great. so after all that, call me jessica. okay, fair right. what fair enough. right. that's what we for now. but green we got time for now. but green party candidate poulton party candidate melissa poulton has from has accused conservative mp from redditch. mclean of redditch. rachel mclean of making comment. making a trans phobic comment. we're be talking we're going to be talking about that the .

i was your feral, feral little kid on the street, really in the east end . welcome back to free east end. welcome back to free speech nation. >> with me , andrew doyle >> with me, andrew doyle speaking in the house of commons this week. the uk secretary of state for women and equalities, kemi badenoch, said the following. >> we are seeing i would say, almost an epidemic of young gay children. young gay children being told that they are trans and being put on a medical pathway for irreversible decisions and they are regretting it. that is what i'm doing for young lgbt children . i doing for young lgbt children. i am making sure i am making sure that young people do not find themselves sterilised because they are being because they are

being exploited by people who do not understand what these issues are . are. >> strong words from kemi badenoch. but joining me now to discuss it is denis kavanagh, director of the gay men's network. hi and welcome to the show . it is very refreshing to show. it is very refreshing to hear a member of parliament stand up in the house of commons and say this because this the debate has been silenced on this for so long, hasn't it? >> well, that's right . as you >> well, that's right. as you probably know, andrew, in 2015, when stonewall adopted extreme gender identity ideology, they also adopted a tactic which they called no debate . and it's as called no debate. and it's as simple as it sounds . it meant simple as it sounds. it meant that they would present a series of extremist demands and absolutely not debate any policy, any proposition , and woe policy, any proposition, and woe betide anyone who challenged them . they would be cancelled. them. they would be cancelled. they'd be called transphobic, they'd be called bigots. no debate died in the house of commons on wednesday of this week. and as i wrote this week, the last rites were administered

by kemi badenoch and thank goodness that it is now gone because behind no debate, the very constituency stonewall was set up to serve and represent gay people. gay people were being hurt by this. you and i have spoken before. we know that 80 to 90% of children and remind people this is children we're talking about at the tavistock, where same sex attracted 35% autistic, 70% presenting with five or so co—morbidities , five or so co—morbidities, deeply, deeply, deeply vulnerable people . the sort of vulnerable people. the sort of people who were facing irreversible medical changes and what are the gay rights charities doing? they're saying there should be no discussion about that. >> so that's really interesting because, you know, saw in because, you know, you saw in that clip the mp chris bryant, on the other side of the house, effectively sneering at what now he's man and he's of he's a gay man and he's sort of saying he believes that saying that he he believes that he's up for gay people. he's standing up for gay people. stonewall they stonewall would say that they are standing for gay people. are standing up for gay people. so would you say to that?

so what would you say to that? how that they are, in how is it that they are, in fact, gay people? fact, damaging gay people? >> it's just it's just >> well, it's just it's just ludicrous because if you look at that exchange in parliament, what secretary that exchange in parliament, wistate secretary that exchange in parliament, wistate for secretary that exchange in parliament, wistate for equality, ry of state for women in equality, kemi badenoch, made a series of very points about very sensible points about what's on in gender what's going on in gender medicine. emphasise medicine. i want to emphasise this she this isn't party political. she herself said this isn't a left right issue. she had exchanges with the heroic neale hanvey mp from the alba party and the brilliant joanna cherry , kc mp brilliant joanna cherry, kc mp from the scottish national party. i'm sure i've seen her have similar exchanges with rosie duffield from the labour party and there is an adult exchanges about paediatric medicine. yes. now sir chris bryant sadly stood up in the chamber about this serious area and simply said, which i found rather odd , simply said, well, rather odd, simply said, well, what the secretary of state said has made me feel less safe . has made me feel less safe. that's extraordinary for a grown man to be saying that across the floor of the chamber. it's embarrassing to me to hear a gay man say it. >> and how i mean, he might feel less safe. we can't talk about

his emotions, i suppose, but what gay what about the gay people? gay young children who are being fast onto medication fast tracked onto medication because not the norm? fast tracked onto medication becyeah, not the norm? fast tracked onto medication becyeah, what not the norm? fast tracked onto medication becyeah, what aiot the norm? fast tracked onto medication becyeah, what a veryie norm? fast tracked onto medication becyeah, what a very good'm? fast tracked onto medication becyeah, what a very good point. >> yeah, what a very good point. you to talk about safety, you want to talk about safety, sir? bryant. let's sir? chris bryant. let's let's talk about safety of chris talk about the safety of chris bell the secretary of bell now, the secretary of state, secretary of state spoke to keira keira bell is to keira bell. keira bell is a lesbian , a detransitioning who lesbian, a detransitioning who was so badly hurt by gender medicine at the tavistock. she mounted a remedy in judicial review in 2020. if we're going to talk about anyone's safety in this debate, let's talk about the safety of vulnerable young gay and lesbian children, vulnerable, autistic children. let's be honest. what's going on here? this i feel unsafe is just a continuation of no debate. it's just a different way of saying, shut up. you should feel bad because you've made me a gay man upset. that is not an adult way to have a debate. and it's particularly inappropriate when we're talking about paediatric medicine. we're talking about the health of young gay people, young lesbians and young people

on the autistic spectrum . on the autistic spectrum. >> yes, but the problem is that a lot of gay people like chris bryant do seem to support these views and do seem to think that anyone who raising concerns anyone who is raising concerns such yourself is coming from such as yourself is coming from a what is it, a place of, well, what is it, transphobia , hatred, bigotry, transphobia, hatred, bigotry, whatever. why is it the case that so many within. well shall i say, our community seem to support incredibly anti gay movements ? what's going on movements? what's going on there? >> i ask myself this every day because we're all looking at the same evidence right? yeah. i've i've read the interim cass review where hillary cass quote spoke to lesbians who reported pressure to trans identify because they felt they were at the bottom of the heap. we've read the times article. you know, there was a joke know, there was a dark joke amongst tavistock staff soon there will be no gay people left . we've read the case of sonia appleby , the safeguarding lead, appleby, the safeguarding lead, who said the malign influence of mermaids was leading to children being tracked to make being fast tracked to make irreversible medical decisions . irreversible medical decisions. so i don't think i really know the answer to question ,

the answer to your question, andrew, we're all andrew, because we're all looking thing. it's looking at the same thing. it's almost they're blinded by almost like they're blinded by stonewall briefing sheets because hear continuation of because i hear a continuation of no tactics. won't no debate tactics. they won't brook criticism of what is brook any criticism of what is increasingly shown to be increasingly being shown to be a global medical scandal. >> but is this part of a broader problem in our culture, which is now all sorts of political differences ideological differences and ideological differences seem to be interpreted matter of good interpreted as a matter of good versus stonewall come versus evil? stonewall has come down and has been, for whatever reason, perceived as the reason, perceived as being the goodies. and so everyone who opposes is perceived as opposes them is perceived as being baddies. very being the baddies. it's very simplistic, like a disney view of the world where there are heroes villains. but heroes and villains. but but actually, if you're actually, of course, if you're going about goodies and going to talk about goodies and baddies, the people baddies, i would say the people who don't want to medicalize gay kids on the good kids are probably on the good side. would be with you on >> well, i would be with you on that. i think that's i think that's probably right approach. >> our stonewall out on >> our stonewall dining out on their because their old reputation because they a lot of good for they did do a lot of good for gay rights. >> yeah, absolutely. but i mean, they're in freefall in of they're in freefall in terms of being taken seriously. the reality stonewall reality is that stonewall achieved marriage primarily achieved gay marriage primarily through discussion , primarily

through discussion, primarily through discussion, primarily through having a debate. yes. that all changed in 2015 with the adoption of extreme gender ideology and no debate . this is ideology and no debate. this is a different beast to what it was i >> -- >> yes. so what can we do about this? how can we raise awareness of it? because a lot of people just don't believe it's happening. a lot of people haven't read the cass review. a lot don't understand lot of people don't understand the on people, the implications on gay people, and don't that and they don't understand that when you promote gender identity, this way, identity, ideology in this way, that actually taking that we are actually taking gay rights think rights backwards. they think it's nonsense because are it's a nonsense because they are so hearing about lgbt so used to hearing about lgbt that is one whole thing, that this is one whole thing, one so how do we one happy family. so how do we change well, change that narrative? well, we've is change the discourse. >> and this week has been a powerful step forward in doing that, kemi badenoch said. the sorts and so did sorts of things, and so did neale and cherry in neale hanvey and joe cherry in the the commons that the chamber of the commons that would got them banned from would have got them banned from social years ago. social media three years ago. that off the back neale that came off the back of neale hanvey mp saying in westminster hall there are fears about trouncing the gay away. the next day there was a constructive and brilliant debate in the house of lords, baroness jenkin , lords, led by baroness jenkin,

in which i particularly noted one very movingly speaking one peer very movingly speaking about plight autistic about the plight of autistic children who obviously i'm here for rights. autistic for gay rights. autistic children forgotten in children are often forgotten in this as well because they are disproportion represented in those the tavistock those who go to the tavistock who have symptoms of gender dysphoria, 35% under 35% of the patient cohort , compared to 2% patient cohort, compared to 2% in the general population. so i think the answer to your question is we've got to keep spreading the word and we've got to keep changing the discourse and what happened in the commons kemi in particular kemi badenoch in particular saying the unsayable. but people across the house doing that, that changes discourse. that that changes the discourse. that gives people the power to speak about this and the strength to speak about it. and we should speak about it. and we should speak this. these are speak about this. these are deeply, deeply, deeply vulnerable . 2018 dr. vulnerable children. 2018 dr. david report instances of david bell report instances of homophobic parents bringing children to the tavistock to put them on puberty blockers to effectively trans away the gay. we have to have this conversation. puberty is a human right and it is a gay right to

grow up free from surgery and in 2023, being gay shouldn't be a medical problem . medical problem. >> excellent. thank you so much for joining me, dennis kavanagh . forjoining me, dennis kavanagh. so next on free speech nation, spiked online editor tom slater will be joining me to discuss the religious book burning ban in denmark . the religious book burning ban in denmark. don't go the religious book burning ban in denmark . don't go anywhere

>> you're listening to gb news radio . radio. >> welcome back to free speech nation. following extensive deliberation, denmark has introduced a law that criminalises the burning, soiling, trampling or cutting of recognised religious scriptures such as the quran, the bible or the torah. this legislation, legislative move comes in response to incidents where korans were burned and damaged dunng korans were burned and damaged during protests in denmark and sweden. after months of intense debate. so joining me now to discuss this is the editor of spiked online, tom slater . discuss this is the editor of spiked online, tom slater. tom, welcome to the show . is it not welcome to the show. is it not the case that denmark is now

just effectively reintroducing blasphemy law? >> it is. and it's particularly tragic given the fact that they only repealed their blasphemy law all right. so law in 2017. all right. so there's not a big there's not been a very big window, a few years of freedom, and all of and then it's all gone. of course, it was one of those things you know, old things where, you know, that old law hadn't been enforced for a very long time. this one definitely is going to be because it in response to, as because it is in response to, as you there been this you say, there has been this spate of quran burnings which have been taking place not just in also in sweden. in denmark, but also in sweden. and consequence that, and as a consequence of that, they've been met with a furious response. threat level response. terror threat level rising essentially rising and also essentially diplomatic dressing down from various have in countries who have said in no uncertain terms, you need to clamp these people. one clamp down on these people. one thing was was very thing that was thought was very telling of the telling was one of the spokespeople the moderate spokespeople for the moderate party, is of party, which is part of the coalition denmarkthere, party, which is part of the coalition denmark there, said coalition in denmark there, said that introducing this law coalition in denmark there, said thatout introducing this law coalition in denmark there, said thatout of introducing this law coalition in denmark there, said thatout of desire,iucing this law coalition in denmark there, said thatout of desire, but|g this law coalition in denmark there, said thatout of desire, but out|is law coalition in denmark there, said thatout of desire, but out of law necessity. >> well, they couched it as a safety measure. all i think they've said this is to do with we're putting danish people at risk, heart home, either risk, at heart at home, either at abroad. aren't they at home or abroad. aren't they effectively saying that the effectively saying that that the islamic world is uniquely combusted, you combusted, able and that, you know, quite

know, isn't this quite patronising to muslims? >> i think it's also >> it is. and i think it's also profoundly misguided insofar as there is idea that there is this idea that censorship that you censorship is the way that you tamp down on violence. it's the way avoid trouble. it's way that you avoid trouble. it's completely opposite. completely the opposite. yes. if you you menace you suggest that if you menace a nafion you suggest that if you menace a nation or a group of people for saying particularly a thing that you happen to find offensive or doing a particular that doing a particular thing that you blasphemous you happen to find blasphemous or you're or sacrilegious, you're effectively to effectively inviting anyone to threaten or inflict threaten violence or to inflict violence expect response, to violence and expect response, to expect a capitulation . so expect a capitulation. so i think this could really backfire. well, if they're explicitly saying that, they're worried violent worried about violent repercussions, mean worried about violent repe terrorism mean worried about violent repe terrorism works? mean that terrorism works? >> they've just passed >> because they've just passed a law along those lines? no, exactly. >> it works. if you give in to it. and that's precisely what they're whilst i they're doing. and whilst i understand the that understand the pressure that they're saw the they're under, you saw the danish authorities talk about the threat level. and of the terror threat level. and of course, that ago , course, it wasn't that long ago, it only a weeks that it was only a few weeks ago that we terror attack in we saw that terror attack in brussels, which is specifically targeted, according to video targeted, according to the video by the islamist extremist swedish football fans, because of burnings have of the quran burnings which have been going on in that country seemingly as well. so it's not

that the threat doesn't exist. it's if you it's just the fact that if you capitulate it , you're first capitulate to it, you're first of you're not standing up of all, you're not standing up for your own values and your own citizens their rights. for your own values and your own citizeneffectively rights. for your own values and your own citizen effectively allowing you're effectively allowing outside orders or domestic terrorists to dictate the freedoms else who freedoms of everyone else who lives in your society. but as i freedoms of everyone else who live also,our society. but as i freedoms of everyone else who live also, you're:iety. but as i freedoms of everyone else who live also, you're basically as i say also, you're basically creating a kind of violent, intolerant veto where if you if you menace someone , then they you menace someone, then they have capitulate dreadful. >> danish government >> but the danish government didn't this mistake back in didn't make this mistake back in 2005 when there was the controversy over the cartoon of the muhammad, which the prophet muhammad, which were published in a danish publication, newspaper, published in a danish publi

sides their mouth from a lot sides of their mouth from a lot of of political of the kind of political establishment other establishment or like other cultural were cultural figures who were nervous actually nervous about it and actually said they shouldn't have said that they shouldn't have doneit said that they shouldn't have done it and so on, but nevertheless more or stood nevertheless more or less stood firm. what's firm. now we see what's happened. across the happened. i think across the west seen a kind of west we've seen a kind of failure of nerve and it's particularly depressing because really, and the really, ever since 1989 and the fatwa rushdie, fatwa against salman rushdie, there's attempt to there's been this attempt to globalise blasphemy globalise islamic blasphemy laws on islamic majority on the part of islamic majority countries. in some cases, there's also just islamist terrorist organisation. yes. and it's been depressingly successful, first of all, because tendency because there was this tendency just to internalise these rules, to there when it comes to to not go there when it comes to criticising religion. so you just need a now just didn't need a law. now you've got denmark actually putting black white putting it in black and white statute. is statute. yes. and that is a tremendously depressing milestone i think we have to reckon with, don't we sort of have it here? >> i mean, there was that 14 year boy in west yorkshire year old boy in west yorkshire who dropped quran on the floor who dropped a quran on the floor by mistake, scuffed the pages and police report he and the police were report he was to the police, was reported to the police, suspended school. don't suspended from school. so don't we blasphemy laws we have those blasphemy laws here or another? anyway? >> i think that's exactly right. i that particularly

i mean, that was a particularly chilling on the one chilling case because on the one hand, just had a game, the hand, you just had a game, the school punishing and the school punishing him and the police in because school punishing him and the po concerns in because school punishing him and the poconcerns about in because school punishing him and the poconcerns about a in because school punishing him and the poconcerns about a kind ecause school punishing him and the poconcerns about a kind ofause of concerns about a kind of backlash. then he was backlash. but then he was actually this boy in actually given this boy in question who was an autistic teenagen question who was an autistic teenager. right. didn't seem teenager. right. it didn't seem to know he was doing to really know he was doing anything any malice. it seems anything of any malice. it seems like you listen to the like if you listen to the testimonies, he was actually given incident given a non crime hate incident as a consequence of that. so what we're seeing the police. what we're seeing by the police. yeah, exactly. >> and received death threats. >> he received death threats. his mother received death threats. that's the thing. threats. and that's the thing. this about the this isn't just about the scandinavian countries, which have a particular specific problem of quran problem with a spate of quran burnings protests a burnings and protests as a consequence that. this is consequence of that. this is a problem across the west. >> it's slightly complicated, >> so it's slightly complicated, isn't i personally >> so it's slightly complicated, isn'very i personally >> so it's slightly complicated, isn' very uncomfortable nally >> so it's slightly complicated, isn' very uncomfortable with the am very uncomfortable with the image burnt. image of books being burnt. i don't it as a form of don't like it as a form of protest. i think it has connotations of the third reich. i i think just has i think i think it just has those kind of unpleasant feeling about just think there about it that i just think there are better ways protest are better ways to protest than this. said, if i buy this. but that said, if i buy a book, it's my book and i should be able to do what i want with it right? >> i think that's exactly right.

i because believe i mean, just because we believe in doesn't mean we in freedom doesn't mean we always how people always agree with how people express yeah. that express themselves. yeah. that being said, these quran burnings, there is also context to been a lot to them. there have been a lot of far right agitators who have been for reasons of been doing it for reasons of just trying to gin up trouble and engineer some sort of and to engineer some sort of response muslims because response from muslims because they've got a kind of bigoted agenda but there's agenda against them. but there's other people for instance, a danish iranian artist has danish iranian artist who has been a kind of art been doing this as a kind of art project, particularly protest project, particularly to protest against iranian regime, against the iranian regime, which so which he herself escaped. so that's obviously fundamentally different. that's obviously fundamentally di comes to that's obviously fundamentally dicomes to context. of it comes down to context. of course, it also comes down course, and it also comes down to just having the freedom to do it, is absolutely it, which i think is absolutely fundamental, if we don't fundamental, even if we don't always people always agree with how people exercise that. right. >> but again, we are living in this of intimidation this climate of intimidation now. everyone stood now. i mean, everyone stood up after charlie hebdo after the horrible charlie hebdo massacre howie massacre and said, josh howie charlie, about charlie, that lasted about a minute, because minute, didn't it? because people draw those sorts of people don't draw those sorts of cartoons you know, cartoons anymore. you know, i think charlie hebdo for think even charlie hebdo for a while stopped, stopped doing it. so of is real so the climate of fear is real in country. had a film, in this country. we had a film, the of heaven, a film made the lady of heaven, a film made by muslim, a group of muslim by a muslim, a group of muslim people. were the wrong

people. but they were the wrong aspect. shia muslims aspect. they were shia muslims rather and rather than sunni muslims. and that down because there that got shut down because there were protesting. are were mobs protesting. so we are living do we have to living in that. do we have to just accept the reality now that we really have freedom we don't really have freedom of speech comes to speech when it comes to criticism and ridicule of this particular faith? >> don't think we >> i definitely don't think we should it in the sense should accept it in the sense of, you know, allowing the state of, you know, allowing the state of to continue for much of affairs to continue for much longer. exactly right longer. but you're exactly right in that we've already in the fact that we've already arrived and think it's arrived there. and i think it's so we realise so important that we realise that isn't like a kind of that this isn't like a kind of neat specific carve out where freedom speech concerned. freedom of speech is concerned. the freedom the struggle for freedom of speech built on, in large speech was built on, in large part right to blaspheme, the part the right to blaspheme, the right to gods and prophets. right to mock gods and prophets. it's it's not it's fundamental. it's not something which is just kind of a at the sidelines a niche issue at the sidelines that can just ignore and not that we can just ignore and not really deal with. so think really deal with. so i think if we give right, then we give up that right, then we're essentially kind of selling the whole thing down the river. >> but how do we do when >> but how do we do that when the threats are real? i mean, samuel the teacher samuel paty, the school teacher in beheaded on the in paris, was beheaded on the street for showing the street simply for showing the charlie cartoons a in charlie hebdo cartoons in a in a lesson on free speech. the teacher at batley grammar school, i believe, is still in

hiding those hiding after he showed those cartoons a lesson on cartoons again in a lesson on free speech. i mean, it was relevant. it was part of the school curriculum, but trade school curriculum, but the trade unions defend that man. unions didn't defend that man. the teacher didn't defend the head teacher didn't defend him. to go into him. and he's having to go into hiding. of us that. so hiding. none of us want that. so you comedians, why you can say to comedians, why aren't mocking this aren't you mocking all of this stuff? but you know, none of us want threats that kind want death threats and that kind of so on a practical of thing. so on a practical basis, how do anything basis, how can we do anything about this on a practical basis? >> i think, first of all, it's not as if everyone has some sort of obligation this of obligation to engage in this form those who form of blasphemy, but those who do want to do it should be defended to the hilt. that should of should be in terms of physically, necessary, physically, if necessary, in terms security and so on. but terms of security and so on. but also public life in also in public life in discussion. i mean, the batley grammar such grammar school was such a perfect example when perfect example because when this menaced for this teacher was menaced for showing cartoons as part this teacher was menaced for sh aying cartoons as part this teacher was menaced for sh a religious cartoons as part this teacher was menaced for sh a religious studies1s as part this teacher was menaced for sh a religious studies classpart this teacher was menaced for sh a religious studies class ont of a religious studies class on blasphemy, pretty relevant. you would mp would think. the local mp essentially denounced him, the headteacher, almost instantly capitulated else capitulated and everyone else just at their just sort of stared at their shoelaces. something shoelaces. so this is something which really which i think is really important that do stand up important that we do stand up for it, right? because at the moment it's clear that the response a kind robust

response is not a kind of robust defence of liberal freedoms. defence of our liberal freedoms. it's been very thin on the ground in all these instances ground in all of these instances and is something and that is something we could all do. >> i wonder whether we just >> and i wonder whether we just didn't learn lesson in the didn't learn our lesson in the salman rushdie satanic verses affair, time, one salman rushdie satanic verses affour time, one salman rushdie satanic verses affour writers time, one salman rushdie satanic verses affour writers being|e, one of our best writers being threatened with death by a foreign power, you would have thought get behind thought we could all get behind that say, actually, is that and say, actually, this is outrageous. to outrageous. you don't get to decide what what this writer decide what our what this writer writes that we would have supported we supported salman rushdie, but we instead debates instead had endless debates about it on about whether he brought it on himself. lot those were himself. and a lot of those were televised debates. is it that we failed back so we've failed back then? and so we've missed our shot. >> think there's certainly >> i think there's certainly some truth in that. i mean, people forget even the people forget that even the thatcher government the time thatcher government at the time was response was very odd in their response to obviously, gave him to it. obviously, they gave him police which was police protection, which was nice they nice of them, was the least they could but also they talked could do. but also they talked about much they felt the about how much they felt the hurt of muslim community and hurt of the muslim community and they that he's someone who they said that he's someone who was offended british values was also offended british values because quite left wing because he was quite a left wing voice criticised a lot voice who had criticised a lot of elements of the british establishment. from establishment. so i think from day failed to stick day one we've failed to stick by these fundamental stick

these fundamental liberty stick by the heretics and the blasphemers yes, blasphemers in question. yes, but we haven't done but just because we haven't done it before doesn't mean we shouldn't doing shouldn't start doing it now. >> of a lot of muslim >> and a lot of a lot of muslim people, i would say the majority of muslim people will say that they death they are appalled by death threats violence response threats and violence in response to may find to even things they may find distasteful. why we insist distasteful. so why do we insist on, know, basically on, you know, basically capitulating minority of capitulating to this minority of ultra reactionary ultra conservative reactionary types within within that religious types within within that religimean, i think it's a >> i mean, i think it's a combination of things. there's certainly a amount of certainly a huge amount of cowardice. the cowardice. i think one of the most chilling things has most chilling things that has happened years is that happened in recent years is that people in politics or people people all in politics or people in the genuinely seem to in the media genuinely seem to think have point think these people have a point when that you shouldn't when they say that you shouldn't be allowed to mock or criticise or religions or depict certain religions and prophets they seem prophets or whatever. they seem to see it as almost kind of quasi racist thing to which quasi racist thing to do, which is absolutely so in quasi racist thing to do, which is absrespects, so in quasi racist thing to do, which is absrespects, people 0 in quasi racist thing to do, which is abs respects, people have some respects, people have completely internalised the logic as you logic of the ayatollah. as you might but that's that's might see it. but that's that's the more difficult thing to unwind. just cowardice unwind. it's not just cowardice that's not. that's driving it. no, it's not. the that they've kind of the sense that they've kind of got a point. >> but we have a lot of i mean, some labour mps have been pushing a more stringent

pushing for a more stringent laws islamophobia, laws against islamophobia, but i'm what they mean i'm not even sure what they mean by you they know? by that. do you think they know? >> don't think they i >> i don't think they do. i mean, islamophobia a complete mean, islamophobia is a complete nonsense. mean, it's idea nonsense. i mean, it's an idea that by islamists that was cooked up by islamists and well propounded and and very well propounded and taken a of idiots in taken up by a lot of idiots in kind of western liberal elite circles. it's basically demand circles. it's basically a demand that criticise that you cannot criticise a particular religion in, right? we recognise kind we all recognise kind of anti—muslim bigotry when you see it, someone having it, when someone is having broadsides against making generalisations and demonising people basis of their people on the basis of their faith whatever, but this is faith or whatever, but this is that's not what islamophobia is about. trying to chill, about. it's trying to chill, demonise us and ultimately silence criticism of a religion, which, as i say , is freedom which, as i say, is what freedom of historically was built on. >> exactly. i mean, wouldn't it be more wouldn't it be less islamophobic , like treat our islamophobic, like to treat our our muslim citizens as equals to ourselves and to say that in a secular society we all get to be criticised and we all get to be ridiculed and we're not going to treat you any differently. we're not going patronise you in not going to patronise you in this wouldn't that be this way. wouldn't that be the more progressive approach? this way. wouldn't that be the moi progressive approach? this way. wouldn't that be the moi completelye approach? this way. wouldn't that be the mo i completely agree.ach? this way. wouldn't that be the mo i completely agree. but�* this way. wouldn't that be the mo i completely agree. but a lot >> i completely agree. but a lot of progressives

of the so—called progressives don't see it that way. don't seem to see it that way. but it's exactly right. we're essentially our british essentially treating our british muslim citizens as muslim fellow citizens as essentially overgrown, essentially kind of overgrown, violent are violent children. and we are also extremist also taking the extremist violent suggesting also taking the extremist violethey suggesting also taking the extremist violethey are suggesting also taking the extremist violethey are essentially sting also taking the extremist violethey are essentially the; that they are essentially the authentic voice british authentic voice of british muslims to listen to muslims who we have to listen to and to. it completely and capitulate to. it completely throws liberal muslims under the bus. it completely throws smaller sects under the smaller muslim sects under the bus. if you about bus. i mean, if you think about the only individual over the last 10 or 15 years who has actually been killed in this country as a result of blasphemy, it was a it was an ahmadi muslim who in ahmadi muslim who lived in glasgow that glasgow because the fact that the ahmadis certain other the ahmadis by certain other sections muslim sections of the muslim population are considered to be heretics and instead considered to be blasphemers. you to be blasphemers. so when you allow kind blasphemy allow these kind of blasphemy restrictions general restrictions or this general intolerance against so—called blasphemers take hold in your blasphemers to take hold in your society, it's also a really big threat to the minorities within the minority, within islam , the minority, within islam, which is why i think we should take no truck this idea take no truck with this idea that extremists speak for take no truck with this idea tha muslims (tremists speak for take no truck with this idea tha muslims inemists speak for take no truck with this idea tha muslims in thists speak for take no truck with this idea tha muslims in this country for take no truck with this idea tha muslims in this country orr all muslims in this country or anywhere all muslims in this country or anytom e all muslims in this country or anytom slater, thanks very much >> tom slater, thanks very much for joining me. thank you. and

forjoining me. thank you. and next on free speech nation, next up on free speech nation, can nigel farage win? i'm a celebrity? plus, social sensations and your unfiltered dilemma . do not go anywhere .

welcome back to free speech nation. with me, andrew doyle. it's time for social sensations . it's time for social sensations. this is part of the show where we look at what's been going viral this week on social media. first up, we've got this video , first up, we've got this video, i think nigel is an amazing person until he speaks about what he really believes in and it's like, oh, no, but you're a cool guy. >> but why do you think like that? like just i. >> so that was former contestant nella rose. and despite many not agreeing with his views, nigel has come across well on the show . he's made it into the final three alongside tony bellew and

sam thompson . nine others have sam thompson. nine others have been voted out before him, including the popular this morning. presenter josie gibson, morning. presenterjosie gibson, first dates host fred and jls star marvin humes. i don't know who any of those people are, but i tell you what, he's doing very well . i i tell you what, he's doing very well. i mean, it i tell you what, he's doing very well . i mean, it looks like well. i mean, it looks like nella rose, she was giving him the benefit of the doubt there, i thought, because i thought they were having rose, weren't they, before? >> had like one >> no, they had like one disagreement or did they? that was. got on only was. and then they got on only noticeable in whole noticeable moment in the whole series. dud. this series. it's been a dud. this series. it's been a dud. this series. viewership has been series. the viewership has been down a couple of million. oh, really? think people down a couple of million. oh, reaitrying think people down a couple of million. oh, reaitrying to think people down a couple of million. oh, reaitrying to blame people down a couple of million. oh, reaitrying to blame farageeople down a couple of million. oh, reaitrying to blame farage on.e are trying to blame farage on it. and actually it's it. and it's actually it's because i think in a way he is to blame. it seems like they probably all money on probably spent all the money on him didn't get anybody him and then didn't get anybody else as well. else decent in it as well. >> okay. well, look, let's let's hear from nigel right now. >> i've been stuck in here a long time. i've this far long time. i've got this far help become king of the help me become king of the jungle. easiest way to jungle. now, the easiest way to do it is to get i'm do it is to get the i'm a celebrity app that gives you five votes. or you can

five free votes. or you can phone or text vote for me , that phone or text vote for me, that was a good joke. >> they cut out there, which was vote to remain that . was a good vote to remain that. was a good joke. >> thanks, josh. >> thanks, josh. >> well, look, if you want to register to vote for farage, you'll need to grab your phone, scan the qr code on the screen and download the app. and by the way, as he just said, you can vote for him five times a day. it a bit much. you it seems a bit much. are you a fan of this show, bruce no, no. >> it's really not for me. i don't like anything to do with dirt. well, not that kind of dirt, but know what i mean. dirt. well, not that kind of dirt, and know what i mean. dirt. well, not that kind of dirt, and also now what i mean. dirt. well, not that kind of dirt, and also asv what i mean. dirt. well, not that kind of dirt, and also as well,t i mean. dirt. well, not that kind of dirt, and also as well, ii mean. dirt. well, not that kind of dirt, and also as well, i was an. dirt. well, not that kind of dirt, and also as well, i was so yeah and also as well, i was so disappointed last year because i'm a big boy george fan. i know. it's a huge surprise. and he's sam thompson. he can he's like sam thompson. he can no speak because of the no longer speak because of the size so i just size of the veneers. so i just find that very depressing. size of the veneers. so i just fin(yeah, very depressing. size of the veneers. so i just fin(yeah, that depressing. size of the veneers. so i just fin(yeah, that isepressing. size of the veneers. so i just fin(yeah, that is upsetting. >> yeah, that is upsetting. although made in although i do like made in chelsea, my niece enjoy chelsea, made my niece enjoy that. oh, you're a man of many contradictions. >> i have done up for >> i have done warm up for marvin rochelle for the hit marvin and rochelle for the hit list. marvin and rochelle for the hit list oh, i apologise. i have >> oh, well, i apologise. i have an audience now. >> covid. >> covid. >> so next up, we have got this

video. let's have a look. >> so next up, we have got this vid> so next up, we have got this vid> so next up, we have got this vidk. >> so next up, we have got this vid> without a shadow of a doubt, there is a transphobic comment. it's whistling at the it's dog whistling at the finest. know, finest. you know, it's gaslighting. everything. gaslighting. it's everything. by attacking um, attacking a minority, um, minority is just. yeah, minority group is just. yeah, you just it's a shame i >> -- >> okay, -_ >> okay, so that's green party candidate melissa poulton, who accused conservative mp for redditch. rachel mclean, of being transphobic on the bbc this morning. now, rachel was due to appear on this programme um, but informed us a short while ago that she was unable to attend. i'm hoping that we can speak to her next week. her crime, i believe, is she referred to melissa poulton as a man in a wig. i think. referred to melissa poulton as a man in a wig. i think . i think. man in a wig. i think. i think. from what? and she. no, sorry . from what? and she. no, sorry. she liked a post that said that this was a man in the wig. that is a man in a wig. this was a man in the wig. that is a man in a wig . so this was a man in the wig. that isamaninawig.soi this was a man in the wig. that is a man in a wig . so i don't is a man in a wig. so i don't think that that's really fair. is it? >> i really hope that that is a man in a wig. yeah for her sake. yes. >> yeah. i mean , i just. >> yeah. i mean, ijust. >>—

>> yeah. i mean, ijust. >> i find it very odd to accuse. accuse this woman of transphobia. it seems very, very unfair. >> i think, you know, i think both could stand getting some layers their hair. layers in their hair. >> yes, that's fair. >> yes, that's fair. >> that's always bruce with the aesthetic judgement. but we should say we did try and get a comment from the green party, but haven't had one yet. hopefully we'll have rachel on next and a response from next week and a response from the as well because we the greens as well because we want to hear all sides of this. and melissa poulton, if you're watching like to be on watching and you'd like to be on the show that would be the show too, that would be wonderful. i sincerely mean wonderful. and i sincerely mean that. we've this that. so finally, we've got this video from tesco care. >> is if i paid for my >> if it is if i paid for my items at the telling, these are chasing trying to tell chasing me down trying to tell me that i haven't paid for certain things. me that i haven't paid for cenl'vethings. me that i haven't paid for cenl've paid s. me that i haven't paid for cenl've paid for everything. >> i've paid for everything. >> i've paid for everything. >> then just kind of. >> but then you just kind of. >> but then you just kind of. >> i did a scan as you >> yeah, i did a scan as you shop, you've just been asked to come and check that that's come and just check that that's paid for. i paid for. i've just paid for. i paid for. i've just paid for. i paid for. i've just paid for items off my phone. paid for my items off my phone. who grabbing? my stuff who are you grabbing? my stuff out hands. maybe cannot out of my hands. maybe cannot take my property out of my hands i >> right. tesco looks exciting.

i'm going to stop going to waitrose. >> i'm. that's amazing. >> i'm. that's amazing. >> what is going on there, bruce? >> well, i think, i think the thing is i had a similar thing with zara that i bought these boots, these very boots that i'm wearing this evening. i bought them in edinburgh. they hadn't deactivated when deactivated the alarm and when i went the one in victoria, went into the one in victoria, the guard up to me the security guard ran up to me and what have you stolen? and went, what have you stolen? i went, just come the i went, i've just come from the street paving stone. what street for a paving stone. what do you think i've stolen you twit? and had go over and twit? and had to go over and get them deactivated? twit? and had to go over and get the well, |ctivated? twit? and had to go over and get the well, that'szd? twit? and had to go over and get the well, that's your excuse, bruce. >> woman able to steal my >> woman was able to steal my card receipt, but woman card receipt, but that woman should grabbed the phone. >> no, and they should stop scanning your shop. friends of mine. but they targeted mine. but they were targeted in a mary's a surbiton saint mary's for similar you've put similar or you've just put something in your bag. yeah, i know, but i'm doing scan and shop. >> but why the violent confrontation? >> why can't that was totally wrong. >> but it's also wrong that you're having to do the work yourself and then get yourself and then you get through it and then they're going. to double going. now we're going to double check everything and they're chasing no one's chasing after it. and no one's mentioned fact that they're mentioned the fact that they're emptying stuff out. and you emptying the stuff out. and you put light items on top and

put the light items on top and then got coke. the then they've got the coke. the big of coke, and they're big thing of coke, and they're putting the muffins. putting that on the muffins. this wrong. they've destroyed this is wrong. they've destroyed her and her clever system. her food and her clever system. >> right. >> right. >> think w" bee-— >> well, i think we've got time for very upset about this. for josh very upset about this. >> upset. look, i'm afraid >> very upset. look, i'm afraid we don't have time for the unfiltered dilemmas because josh got his horse. got so much on his high horse. but we'll solve your but we'll we'll solve your problems week, don't worry. problems next week, don't worry. but for joining for but thanks for joining us for free speech nation. if you want to us the audience, by to join us in the audience, by the you can easily do that. the way, you can easily do that. just ww dot sro just go to ww dot sro audiences.com and you can come along and join us in this live studio audience . we have food, studio audience. we have food, we have drinks, twiglets twiglets . twiglets. >> we have lots and lots of twiglets. thank you ever so much to all of my guests and of course to bruce devlin and josh howie been absolutely howie who have been absolutely wonderful howie who have been absolutely wonder1saw tiffany jenkins, kate >> you saw tiffany jenkins, kate coleman, david oldroyd bolt, dennis kavanagh and slater. dennis kavanagh and tom slater. we're a huge we're going to have a huge raft of wonderful guests next week. stay tuned because dolan stay tuned because mark dolan tonight is on next. and don't forget is on every forget head liners is on every night at 11:00. that's the late night at 11:00. that's the late night paper preview show where

comedians talk you through the next day's top news stories. do not miss thank you ever so not miss that. thank you ever so much for free much for joining us for free speech nation. see you again next week . next week. back that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers sponsor of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> hello. welcome to your latest gb news weather. i'm ellie glaisyer unsettled weather continues as low pressure remains very much in charge of our weather over the next couple of days. storm fergus situated out to the west, slowly moves its way towards us through sunday evening and into the start of monday, bringing with it very heavy rainfall, it some very heavy rainfall, particularly to northern parts of england the ground is of england where the ground is already very saturated. so we could some localised could see some localised flooding through the early hours of morning. some strong of monday morning. some strong winds across winds too, particularly across western wales and through the bristol where we could bristol channel, where we could see gusts up to 60 miles an

houn see gusts up to 60 miles an hour. temperatures south hour. temperatures in the south generally 8 degrees, generally around 7 or 8 degrees, but much colder night across but a much colder night across northern parts of scotland where we some conditions we could see some icy conditions , particularly across the south—west scotland through , particularly across the south—v1 morning otland through , particularly across the south—v1 morning .tland through , particularly across the south—vimorning . aind through , particularly across the south—vimorning . a cloudyyugh , particularly across the south—v1 morning . a cloudy start monday morning. a cloudy start across the northern half of the uk on monday, some showers continue along those eastern coast scotland , but generally coast of scotland, but generally monday more monday will be a much more settled most of us. settled day for most of us. plenty sunshine as we head plenty of sunshine as we head through the afternoon with through the afternoon and with some temperatures some lighter winds, temperatures around degrees across around 10 to 12 degrees across the south. it'll be feeling a little more pleasant than we've seen over recent days. tues day starts a much cloudier picture though. rain continues to push its way through its way northwards through tuesday morning. again bringing you heavy rainfall to you some very heavy rainfall to eastern of scotland where eastern parts of scotland where again could see some again we could see some localised due that localised flooding due to that saturated ground . and further saturated ground. and further south are be plenty heavy south are be plenty of heavy showers from the showers pushing in from the southwest quite blustery southwest and quite a blustery feeling to remaining feeling day to remaining unsettled tuesday and unsettled through tuesday and wednesday. but hints of something a little more settled are on the horizon through thursday and friday. >> looks like things are heating up. boilers sponsors of

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it's 9:00 on television, on radio and online in the united kingdom and across the world. >> this is mark dolan tonight right? in my big opinion as politician and lawyers squabble over the rwanda plan. when did protecting the borders of your country become controversial? i'll be tackling what is a national scandal and a national emergency in just two minutes time. you won't want to miss it.

my time. you won't want to miss it. my mark meets guest is sarah de la garde, a woman who miraculously survived being run over by two separate trains , her over by two separate trains, her body destroyed. but her spirit alive. she tells her amazing story shortly in the big story, the mail on sunday report that bofis the mail on sunday report that boris johnson could send occasionally return as prime minister and give nigel farage a top job in his government. we'll get reaction from rebel tory backbencher and gb news star philip davies . backbencher and gb news star philip davies. in my backbencher and gb news star philip davies . in my take at philip davies. in my take at ten. it's been a week to forget for prince harry losing a court case and seeing his favourite journalist and the author of a horrific book about his family, omid scobie branded a liar be deaung omid scobie branded a liar be dealing with the prodigal prince in no uncertain terms . what now in no uncertain terms. what now for harry? my verdict . at ten to for harry? my verdict. at ten to hours of big opinion, big debate and big entertainment and plenty of surprises along the way,

including a whole load