his stall on stopping the set his stall on stopping the boats, which is the bulk of illegal immigration. and he said this will stop the boats. but actually we've had two previous bills that they said would stop illegal immigration and essentially this chaos indicates people a lot of people don't think it will. where do we go from here? i mean, the united kingdom is in is in a pretty bad place in terms of trying to stop that basic objective. yes >> so, first of all, thanks for having me . i think the first having me. i think the first takeaway is even if this bill passes parliament, it's not going to work and it's not going to work for, let's say, many two reasons. first, because even if we manage to send people to rwanda, as the government is claiming it will be able to do, it would be just very few. what does mean? means that does this mean? it means that probably people , even if probably many people, even if this happens , many people will

this happens, many people will actually not have the information about this happening . so let me rephrase this . many . so let me rephrase this. many migrants actually don't get the information from where you think they get the information from. so often what happens is that they get their information from they get their information from the illegal smuggling groups , the illegal smuggling groups, from facebook, groups from instagram , and so many of them instagram, and so many of them will not know about interest, so they won't even know about the rwanda plan as a deterrent . rwanda plan as a deterrent. >> yes. and they won't know that it's few hundred. if they it's only a few hundred. if they if know exactly. if they did know exactly. >> they knew, we >> and even if they knew, we have that will have to assume that they will care about it enough to do something about it. i think something about it. and i think this mistake, because this is the big mistake, because often people will have many reasons to willing to come to reasons to be willing to come to the a place where they the uk. it's a place where they might a network, they might might have a network, they might speak language, might speak the language, they might think, of it as think, i might think of it as a as a as a beacon of the rule of law, place where can law, a place where they can be safe even if there is a safe and so even if there is a risk, tiny risk that might be sent back to rwanda actually , sent back to rwanda actually, they might not care about it and they might not care about it and they will try their best. >> this the thing with

>> and this is the thing with your expertise, you've your expertise, because you've worked united nations and worked at the united nations and you study international migration so migration and refugee policy. so you this around the world. you see this around the world. how chaotic on a sort of scale of i to 10 is this in the united kingdom relative to what you might be seeing in, let's say, france or germany or the united states, just to help people at home understand, are we the only ones this incompetent and chaotic ? chaotic? >> well, actually, the numbers in the united kingdom are actually smaller than in other european countries . so if you european countries. so if you want is not so bad here. but it has become worse, especially since 2020. and why is this? it is because since 2020 we have left the dublin regulation , left the dublin regulation, which actually allowed us to send people back to their first country. but the numbers were tiny. >> they were exactly so they were being sent this way. so i'm not relevant, but it is. >> it is indeed because effectively you nowadays you can think , oh, well, if you make an think, oh, well, if you make an agreement with france or with many other european countries, we be able them we might be able to send them back stop these smuggling

back and stop these smuggling gangs. we will able gangs. but we will not be able to we have really bad to because we have a really bad relationship with our european neighbours relationship with our european nei�*interesting. that's you're >> interesting. so that's you're putting on brexit, which that's something actually i actually don't accept. but nevertheless, i are massive i mean there are massive problems germany. yes, i mean there are massive proble got germany. yes, i mean there are massive proble got the germany. yes, i mean there are massive proble got the wholenany. yes, i mean there are massive proble got the whole carl. yes, we've got the whole carl heneghan agreement, which is , heneghan agreement, which is, which is under threat as well . which is under threat as well. stay with us, omar, because anything could go i'm going anything could go on. i'm going to to you, polly, in a to hand back to you, polly, in a few minutes. but omar, we're still looking this . still just looking at this. let's we'll keep going on let's just we'll keep going on this this issue of shannon, because shannon is the sort of the free movement across the most of the european union nafions. most of the european union nations . but most of the european union nations. but some countries most of the european union nations . but some countries now nations. but some countries now are are really worried about that. the impact of free movement of illegal migration through those countries . they through those countries. they may have come across the mediterranean to italy and then spreading out and some obviously arriving. do you see that? actually, shannon itself may fail as part of the international illegal migration crisis , as it's a very good crisis, as it's a very good question . question. >> i hope it will not, but it

might because of course , over might because of course, over the last few years, countries have actually raised temporary barriers to stop migratory flows for instance, france has done this with italy because italy did let many people through. but this is not so much the main point. the main point is how do we actually take this problem and solve it and add my personal opinion on this is that the rwanda plan is just a policy of mass distraction because the government knows , as the home government knows, as the home office knows, it won't the construction of the government? >> absolutely. >> absolutely. >> no, no, no. it's from its other failures and, you know, rishi sunak mean, this was rishi sunak i mean, this was suella and suella braverman policy and rishi now is trying to rishi sunak now is trying to bnng rishi sunak now is trying to bring it forward . and even if bring it forward. and even if everyone knows , all experts know everyone knows, all experts know that not going to work, that it's not going to work, even it passes through the comments. >> it's bizarre, isn't it? now, actually , of the prime actually, of course, the prime minister, rishi sunak, has just entered commons. he's entered the commons. he's literally reputation literally staked his reputation on this, although of course it's not actually his policy. the

rwanda policy, which is now being talked about for, i think a year and three quarters, was originally announced by the then prime boris johnson. originally announced by the then prime borisjohnson. he prime minister boris johnson. he actually , when he announced it, actually, when he announced it, he said will be subject to he said it will be subject to huge challenges. yes. so huge legal challenges. yes. so he and yet they've he knew. yes. and yet they've they've careered down this course of self—destruction . were course of self—destruction. were you surprised if you look back at that moment, then you're probably surprised. and are you surprised this has ended up in the chaos now? >> no, absolutely not. no, no, no. definitely not. and i don't think any legal scholar , any un think any legal scholar, any un official who works on human rights is surprised by this . rights is surprised by this. this is this was never supposed to work. there is a very good reason no other country on reason why no other country on the planet has a like the planet has a policy like this, especially with a this, and especially with a country like rwanda, which often the conservative government forgets is a dictatorship which has been run by, you know, since 20 the year 2000, by paul kagame i >> -- >> yes, that's right. but i was just talking to paul turner, a previous guest, because i've got on my screen here a nine sorry,

a 2022 report from the unhcr refugee agency. their annual results report, which is it's 29 pages. and i've been through it. it talks about how well they treat 127,000 refugees and actually and it's not saying it's perfect . yes. but it's it's perfect. yes. but it's saying they're making good progress with some of the key objective is regarding housing and education and employment and many would read that and say, well, actually , what's the well, actually, what's the problem? let me challenge that. >> if you go and check a human rights watch, so a reputable source when it comes to this is your own united nations that you used to work for , you must trust used to work for, you must trust them. let me me get there. them. let me let me get there. let me get there. it is true that are treated well that refugees are treated well in , and there are many in rwanda, and there are many political of political reasons because of that but look at human that. but if you look at human rights violations overall, it's actually a country that still tortures and imprisons many of its political opponents. if you look at the last electoral results in rwanda 2017, in the

presidential elections were won by paul kagame. again with 90 more than 98% of the votes. so it would be as if we are putting our hands and trusting the uk migration policy to a country thatis migration policy to a country that is not, you know, less reliable than or more reliable than maduro's venezuela. >> i think we can take it as read being, being polite about it, that if you get 98% of the votes, that's probably not a genuine open spirited democracy. i think we probably reasonably say that in the traditional sense of the word. but on the other side, they've got strong economic growth. things work there and they they want more people to come and fill their jobs and things and to keep that growth going. i mean, some would say, , well, is a benign say, well, well, is it a benign dictatorship that's actually achieving results for citizens and people coming there ? and people coming there? >> well , a and people coming there? >> well, a dictatorship achieved good results until they don't, because you can never know what

they will do next because they're not bound by the rule of law, which is what distinguishes a country like the united kingdom from a dictatorship like rwanda's. yes >> so exactly. you've got that difference there. and of course, what we're seeing now is the sort of democracy sort of the chaos of democracy where we innocence . we don't where we innocence. we don't know what's going. we've got so much debate and sort of division, but division with votes as opposed to a sense dissent with dictatorship. i guess that's the key difference we're talking about. i think any minute we are going to get the result of this critical vote. hopefully yeah. i'm going to throw now to polly middlehurst to give us this result of the second vote. >> indeed . all eyes on >> indeed. all eyes on westminster tonight. richard as mps vote on prime minister rishi sunak's crucial rwanda plan on asylum seekers. let's hear the vote . the nos to the left . 269. vote. the nos to the left. 269. >> yes . is

vote. the nos to the left. 269. >> yes. is there vote. the nos to the left. 269. >> yes . is there cheering >> yes. is there cheering a majority of 1870 in order to order the eyes to the right? >> 313. the noes to the left. 269 so the ayes have it. the ayes have it unlocked ? yes we ayes have it unlocked? yes we now come to the program motion to be moved formally . the to be moved formally. the question is, as on the order papen question is, as on the order paper, as many as are of that opinion say i country no division fear the loving so there we have it in the house of commons. >> the ayes have it. 313 to 269. let's take you to westminster for analysis of that historic vote in the house of commons. just now. our political editor christopher hope is standing by.

chris >> so a majority of their 44, i make it for the government. poly a majority of 44 for the government that is not as bad as it had appeared, but we have now got an idea of what the route forward is for the government. they will look at try and hardening this legislation, making it stronger, making it firmer track more firmer to try and track more right wingers, not to it right wingers, not to oppose it at the next this battle at the next stage. this battle goes the tory government. at the next stage. this battle goezheard the tory government. at the next stage. this battle goezheard thee tory government. at the next stage. this battle goezheard the strength vernment. you heard the strength of feeling mark tufnell feeling there from mark tufnell sua, the so—called five families of the tory right . sua, the so—called five families of the tory right. many sua, the so—called five families of the tory right . many 100 of the tory right. many 100 members like many of them members look like many of them have on their hands, will have sat on their hands, will work out how many abstentions there were shortly and bring that gb news viewers. it that to gb news viewers. it could as as looking at could be as many as looking at that 80 possibly abstentions on the tory side, 70 or 80, certainly enough to overturn a majority if they turn their fire on the government. you heard mark francois in that statement about an hour, 45 minutes ago, which he then made very clear if the government doesn't move to harden up this legislation , the harden up this legislation, the right will vote against this bill at the third reading. so we

are facing a difficult christmas, a christmas for the pm where he's got to bring round work out how he can make this more palatable to right of more palatable to the right of the stop the boats once the party to stop the boats once and all avoid losing the and for all and avoid losing the one the nation caucus, the 100 or so tory mps on the left who have they would support the have said they would support the this far they are this bill. so far they are warning him, don't it, warning him, don't make it, don't go any further in ignoring human rights laws. we can't support that . the pm done support that. the pm has done it. he's got past the first hurdle. it's been bruising . what hurdle. it's been bruising. what happens next now is absolutely vital for him. polly chris, just for our viewers who are tuning in to hear this culmination, if you like, of our coverage over the last hour or so , to be the last hour or so, to be clear, the government has now won that rwanda vote. >> it's winning its flagship policy bill despite a number of abstentions. you said you still haven't done the maths yet, 313in favour, voting for the second reading of this bill, 269 against and your maths correct 44 we believe abstaining from

that vote. so this of course, chris, all against the background of a looming general election eventually we haven't heard when that will be. what does this mean for rishi sunak's reputation ? yeah let's be clear. >> that's a majority of 44 for the government. the abstention figure is bigger than that. well, certainly weakens. i well, it's certainly weakens. i think the government is authority been tested . authority has been been tested. the majority has held up more than i thought. i could have thought. it could be down 20 thought. it could be down to 20 or that have been or tens. that would have been put the government on virtual life certainly life support. this is certainly a than many thought. a lot better than many thought. it i think, the right it shows, i think, the right have give a warning to have chosen to give a warning to the pm, mr sunak. he's got to act. listen to them. take it forward, deliver promise forward, deliver on that promise of some areas of the of hardening some areas of the bill. we heard that from richard holton midday. that's holton on gb news midday. that's being said very clearly by the pm meetings today. pm in private meetings today. understand with with right wing tory from the so—called five tory mps from the so—called five families grouping of five different groups on the tory. right. he's got he's got to do more and all the goal essentially is to try and make

these flights take off with people here illegally people arriving here illegally on to take them to on small boats to take them to rwanda, process them there. the idea that break the idea is that will break the break back of the the break the back of the of the business model used these business model used by these people smugglers. the hope is that get through. that they can get this through. 44 to work with. 44 is something to work with. it's near as disastrous it's nowhere near as disastrous as had has as it had looked when we heard earlier from mark francois kwarteng seven. he said then that the bulk of the five family of the of the family members of the of the tory right vote against tory right would vote against that's around 100 tory now that's around 100 tory mps. now that's around 100 tory mps. now that hasn't happened, but we do know it's going to be the bulk would not support it. that's abstentions. well it does look like there could be or 70 like there could be 60 or 70 abstentions. so it proved be abstentions. so it proved to be correct that. but how does correct on that. but how does the pm win those round and stop those abstentions becoming votes against? challenge against? that's his challenge now polly hope now going forward. polly hope for the moment. >> thanks indeed . and >> thanks very much indeed. and the won. it's the government has won. it's rwanda vote. just to recap for you that's 313 to 269. a majority of 44. what those numbers mean, we'll come up in our analysis next with richard

tice . tice. >> polly , thank you very much >> polly, thank you very much indeed. well, that's fascinating because i've just done some maths whilst christopher was talking there in the first amendment. that the labour amendment. it that the labour amendment that was lost, 608 mps voted as in this vote, 582 voted which by my maths means that 26 people who voted in the first vote abstained in the second vote. and i would hesitate a guess , a reasonable guess that guess, a reasonable guess that those were conservative mps delighted . still to be joined in delighted. still to be joined in the studio on my left by dr. omar hamoud gallego. i'll come back to you in a second, but also matthew laza matthew, you've got a lot of experience in the politics around this. if my maths are about right and there's about extra 26 there's about an extra 26 abstentions, don't know abstentions, we don't know exactly many in the exactly how many mps are in the house of commons. what does that tell you? mean, we sort tell you? i mean, when we sort of had a quick beforehand , of had a quick guess beforehand, we all three said it would get through, but you didn't expect it to be quite by 44?

>> no, i thought it would be more kind of 25, 30. so i mean, he's managed to a few round, he's managed to win a few round, but sense for labour, this but in a sense for labour, this is the best possible result because ain't yet. because it ain't over yet. because that we saw because remember that we saw mark on behalf mark francois speaking on behalf of or people are of the 100 or so people who are part fi, the fi part of these fi, the fi families, these five tribes of the on the right who the tory party on the right who have said that this was they're giving him a stay of execution. they abstain today giving him a stay of execution. thejthat abstain today giving him a stay of execution. thejthat they abstain today giving him a stay of execution. thejthat they would tain today giving him a stay of execution. thejthat they would potentially and that they would potentially still vote against. >> or is it the perfect result actually for the prime minister in that he's got his various groups, they've all had their say. all sort of done say. they've all sort of done their grandstanding. the their grandstanding. but at the end of day, got end of the day, he's got the numbers. can strong numbers. he can feel strong about and can say to about that and he can say to laboun about that and he can say to labour, now i've got the votes. this is what it in on behalf of the country, this is what needs to happen. >> he's still >> but he's he's still got several parliamentary hurdles to get through. if this was the get through. so if this was the end process, rishi may be end of the process, rishi may be able go put able to go and put the i wouldn't even have the champagne able to go and put the i woulcstrongen have the champagne able to go and put the i woulcstrongen ithe�* the champagne able to go and put the i woulcstrongen ithe house|ampagne able to go and put the i woulcstrongen ithe house of1pagne quite strong to the house of lords, it? the lords, isn't it? but the problem, issue the house problem, the issue of the house of lords on this is that there's such feeling from from

such feeling from the from the crossbenchers in particular, from those lawyers, from all those former lawyers, the the former the bishops and the former bishops if it wasn't bishops, that even if it wasn't for labour you'd for the labour party, you'd have trouble lords, trouble in the house of lords, whatever on an whatever the commons say on an issue so it really is issue like this. so it really is still going to be a tough battle for rishi anybody for rishi to get anybody on a plane before german plane before the german election, focus is election, which is his focus is not winning parliamentary election, which is his focus is not because1ing parliamentary election, which is his focus is not because the parliamentary election, which is his focus is not because the publicnentary votes because the public ultimately the political aficionado, i suspect i suspect he's looking literally day he's just looking literally day by by week. he's just looking literally day by but by week. he's just looking literally day by but actually week. he's just looking literally day by but actually he eek. he's just looking literally day by but actually he is. he's just looking literally day by but actually he is going to >> but actually he is going to get tonight. get some sleep tonight. >> sleep tonight. >> he'll get some sleep tonight. but not sure how sleep but i'm not sure how much sleep he's over christmas he's going to get over christmas because all going come he's going to get over christmas beca|ine all going come he's going to get over christmas beca|in the all going come he's going to get over christmas beca|in the newgoing come he's going to get over christmas beca|in the new year. come back in the new year. >> don't go anywhere. matthew, thank you much. omar thank you very much. omar that that's reasonably comprehensive. 44. minister 44. i think the prime minister can say this is the can legitimately say this is the will of the house, it's the will of the people through their elected representatives. how do of the people through their electhink�*presentatives. how do of the people through their electhink the ;entatives. how do of the people through their electhink the wise:ives. how do of the people through their electhink the wise folk how do of the people through their electhink the wise folk in ow do of the people through their electhink the wise folk in the to you think the wise folk in the house of lords ? i say house of lords? i say optimistically , will respond to optimistically, will respond to that. i mean , it's a fair signal that. i mean, it's a fair signal when it goes to the house of lords. or do you think they might have a very, very different as matthew does? different view as matthew does? >> the house of lords >> probably the house of lords will much of that.

will counteract much of that. the of lords cares about the house of lords cares about human rights. it cares about the rule . rule of law. >> care about human >> we all care about human rights the rule of law. rights and the rule of law. >> if i may, the >> well, if i if i may, the chairman of conservative chairman of the conservative party suggest a few party did seem to suggest a few weeks that the rule law weeks ago that the rule of law should is actually something that we you know, in this particular circumstance could actually get rid of. >> but this is all about the house of commons determining what the laws should be, and what the new laws should be, and we're to change our own we're entitled to change our own laws. absolutely. >> but as i said earlier, even if passes , as it has passed if this passes, as it has passed the even if it passes the the house, even if it passes the lords and we will see how that goes , it will then be challenged goes, it will then be challenged by the courts and again said even if it goes through the courts, be challenged by courts, it will be challenged by the european of human the european court of human rights. and even if it goes through that, it's not going to work. of this just to say work. so all of this just to say this is a massive distraction andifs this is a massive distraction and it's not going to. bring and it's not going to. so bring us anywhere. >> summary, everybody >> i guess in summary, everybody with this noise all this with all this noise and all this confusion grandstanding, confusion and grandstanding, i think all my guests, not a single one of you think that anybody's going to be sent to

rwanda soon. do you rwanda anytime soon. do you think any before the general election? >> oh, definitely not. >> oh, definitely not. >> definitely not. they're from omar matthew. >> absolutely not. maybe a few more home secretaries, maybe a few more home secretaries, a few more home secretaries might visit rwanda, but i don't think an asylum seeker is going to be sent meantime, the sent there. in the meantime, the cases and the things cases pile up and the things that should be done to stop the boats are not happening. so folks, it. folks, there we have it. >> won that >> the government has won that vote. and as matthew has just reminded me, we have sent three home to rwanda with home secretaries to rwanda with almost almost almost £300 million. it's almost 100 million per year. home secretary . i 100 million per year. home secretary. i mean, 100 million per year. home secretary . i mean, that in secretary. i mean, that in itself feels like a what the farage. but i have got a couple of amongst this of others amongst all this chaos and need little and madness. we need a little bit of levity, a little bit of humour . here bit of levity, a little bit of humour. here we go. so in wales, where they've this 20 where they've introduced this 20 mile limit across much mile an hour limit across much of wales, here's thing, of wales, here's a thing, 466,000 welsh adults have signed the petition to get rid of this murder. that's more people than voted labour at the last

assembly elections. it's 24% of all adults in wales. quite extraordinary . i all adults in wales. quite extraordinary. i think all adults in wales. quite extraordinary . i think that's extraordinary. i think that's the biggest ever petition. here's the other one. we're going to move talking in a moment about what's going on down in dubai with the cop 28. i just thought you'd be interested in this. and al gore, who obviously he was a vice president, presidential candidate. he's very, very strong on the need to stop climate change and to reduce emissions. quite keen on flying private jets. it seems he does have a 10,000 square foot home in tennessee that apparently guzzles more electricity in one year than the average american family uses in 21 years. as his swimming pool would power six homes for a year. there we go, john kerry. i think we may have a picture of john kerry just to remind us oh , all, that doesn't remind us oh, all, that doesn't look like a passenger jet to me. look like a passengerjet to me. no it's a private jet. john kerry said it was a persistent

lie that he had a private jet and it turned out his family , and it turned out his family, his wife owned the jet. his family sold their jet. but family sold theirjet. but anyway, he says he defended attendees at the recent davos summit using private jets, claiming they offset their emissions and are working hard to save the planet. well, my next guest, i'm delighted to be joined down the line is bob ward , who is the works at the he's the policy and communications director at the lsc, the grantham institute . and bob, grantham institute. and bob, a very good evening . i think you very good evening. i think you are down in dubai , aren't you? are down in dubai, aren't you? and i know you are very work ing, very hard to reduce emissions . jones is it true, emissions. jones is it true, bob, that you're one of some 70,000 delegates down at cop 28 well, there are, i think the rumours are there are 70,000 people here associate with the cop, but a lot of those are people like business who are talking to each other about what the opportunities that they have

associated with the transition to a cleaner economy. >> so it's good, good for business to be able to do that. and there are all the negotiating teams here for 197 countries. that's why you can't do it by zoom. richard people have to meet in person. if you have to meet in person. if you have 197 countries. it seems that graham stuart, who should have been leading the uk delegation , decided he had to go delegation, decided he had to go back for the vote in the house of uh, house of commons. so the uk we have, i suppose we have to laugh at the irony of that, don't we? >> i mean graham stuart, the uk climate minister, creating a whole load more emissions and footprint back for a for footprint rushing back for a for a vote that they won by 44. anybody. i think he's coming back the couple of days back in the next couple of days yeah yeah well i mean the biggest irony is if you're worried about refugee numbers coming to the uk , you can be coming to the uk, you can be rest assured that climate change is going to drive even bigger

numbers of refugees over the coming years. >> and the government's too busy deaung >> and the government's too busy dealing with the consequences of that to worry about tackling the underlying driving causes of it . underlying driving causes of it. but that's the biggest irony of all. >> in all seriousness, bob, i mean, these cop summits, they go on now every year. this, i think, is the 28th. we had the one in glasgow, which was two years ago, which was sort i think the prime minister then described it as a couple of minutes to midnight. described it as a couple of minutes to midnight . what are minutes to midnight. what are all these delegates do for the week or ten days of the summit? as you say, there's 196 countries. why do you need 70,000? i'm trying to do the maths quickly in my head. i mean, it's quite a lot of delegates per country. bob yeah, well, not everybody has a large delegation of, of course developing countries have small delegations, but there are lots of technical issues that have to be discussed . be discussed. >> so they talk about, for instance , efforts to cut instance, efforts to cut greenhouse gas emissions. they

talk about the finance required. they talk about the need to adapt to the impacts of climate change. they talk about the loss and damage caused by those impacts of climate change that we cannot now avoid it. and what they have to do is negotiate a tax so the cops are consensus processes . between 100 and 97 processes. between 100 and 97 countries as far finding language that everybody agrees to is difficult and challenging . to is difficult and challenging. and at the moment, the conference was supposed to end at 11 am. this morning. local time. they are still negotiating now and will probably go on for another couple of days because they are they are deadlocked on key issues, particularly around the issue of the future use of fossil fuels. >> there is a certain irony that lots of people have commented on here that you've here in the uk, bob, that you've got a essentially a climate summit in the heart of the main sort of petrostate region almost of the world, i think possibly with the exception of, of the us , where actually in a sense the

big row is whether or to not try and aim to eradicate all fossil fuels or to reduce their use. i mean, it's a pretty fundamental difference. but without fossil fuels , bob, we're all heading to fuels, bob, we're all heading to the caves with candles as well. >> if you tried to stop using fossil fuels overnight. indeed you would. but remember at the moment, we people are dealing with high petrol and diesel pnces with high petrol and diesel prices in the uk. it's keeping inflation higher. that's because the supply of oil is controlled by opec, which is a cartel of countries including the united arab emirates. that cut production in order to boost oil pnces. production in order to boost oil prices . so production in order to boost oil prices. so you're production in order to boost oil prices . so you're not the world prices. so you're not the world is not better off by being dependent on fossil fuels. it would be much better if we were on cheaper forms of clean british energy like wind and solar. british energy like wind and solar . and british energy like wind and solar. and indeed, that's true of most countries, because the majority of countries are are consumers of fossil fuels and not producers have to import them and are very much exposed

as we are, to volatile prices. >> absolutely. well, bob, that's all the reasons why we should be using. we should be using our own fossil fuels, our own oil and in the north sea and our and gas in the north sea and our own oil where is the oil? >> we have oil, oil, the cheapest what we've got we've got shale gas , which is got shale gas, which is potentially a great source of energy . you can't power your car energy. you can't power your car with. no, we can't. >> but we can create cheap electricity like they enjoy in the united states. >> you have an electric car anyway, so i don't know what you're arguing about this because. >> because i'm bob, i've made a personal but but all personal choice. but but in all seriousness, states seriousness, the united states has much cheaper gas and electricity because because they're using their own. they've got their own energy treasure. they're using it until other technologies come along . we technologies come along. we don't know how long that will be. surely we should be using our own treasure rather our own energy treasure rather than importing fossil than relying on importing fossil fuels elsewhere in the world. >> yeah, so you can make that

argument. but we already know, richard, that if you want to fracking people's gardens, fracking people's back gardens, the of people don't the majority of people don't want that. in the uk. the majority of people don't want that. in the uk . so it's want that. in the uk. so it's either a question of either you're a democrat and you accept the will the people. and if the will of the people. and if people want fracking people don't want fracking around them, then the is, around them, then the truth is, bob, truth is they haven't bob, the truth is they haven't actually asked. bob, the truth is they haven't act|west asked. bob, the truth is they haven't act|west minster's d. bob, the truth is they haven't act|west minster's made that >> west minster's made that rather grand assumption in the same it assumed people same way it assumed people didn't want brexit the didn't want brexit and the people westminster what people told westminster what they want . they actually did want. >> now the situation is, >> now what the situation is, the moratorium that's currently in place on fracking is because the latest examination by the british geological survey found that they couldn't guarantee that they couldn't guarantee that you could frack without potentially causing damage to nearby properties. >> that's a big debate. >> that's a big debate. >> we will continue. bob, when you when are you back from this great this great extravaganza that you've been enjoying in dubai? well it's a you it's a un negotiation, richard. >> it's not really a fun activity . i will be coming back

activity. i will be coming back tomorrow . i expect that it will tomorrow. i expect that it will probably run into tomorrow, maybe thursday . and what they're maybe thursday. and what they're deciding here will be very important to all of your viewers, because climate change is a threat to everybody. >> i'll ask them, bob. that's that's for sure. thank you very much indeed, safe travels. much indeed, bob. safe travels. that's ward. at the cop that's bob ward. he's at the cop 28 summit in dubai with about 70,000 others. don't go anywhere , folks, because after the break, i'm going to be talking to enver solomon, who is the chief executive of the refugee council here. his latest thoughts on the rwanda debate. don't go anywhere.

gb news. welcome back to farage on gb news. well, it's been a action packed full on evening. the government has won its crucial vote on the rwanda bill by 44 votes. the prime minister, i think, will sleep much better than perhaps he feared earlier in the day or this evening. but still of course, that is not the

end of it. it's got to get through the house of lords and there's still the risk of claims. i'm still joined in the studio by paul turner, immigration paul, studio by paul turner, immigration paul , just immigration lawyer paul, just can talk about how how can we just talk about how how may individual asylum seekers try to essentially continue these claims despite this bill, just quickly. >> well, i think what the new treaty allows people to make claims that are based on their individual circumstances so they can't say rwanda is not safe per se, but they will be able to say because of my potential mental health problems, because of the trauma that suffered, trauma that i've suffered, because special needs , because of my special needs, that i cannot go to rwanda because it's just not good enough. >> so my viewers will say, well, that's that's obvious. that's what people have been doing to date. >> well, that's right. and the home office have actually published details that say that if someone minded resist if someone is minded to resist this , they can resist it for this, they can resist it for between 200 and 39 days and 420 days before they are actually removed. paul, thank you so much for your thoughts there. >> as a legal expert , another

>> as a legal expert, another expert in matters, refugee related is my final guest of the show, enver solomon, chief executive of the refugee council . enver, thank you so much for joining us. you've heard the votes this evening . huge amounts votes this evening. huge amounts of noise and distraction and all of noise and distraction and all of this. what does it actually mean, enver, to my viewers and listeners and the state of the illegal immigration crisis in the united kingdom ? the united kingdom? >> well, what it means, richard, is refugees from countries such as afghanistan. and we know what's going on in afghanistan , what's going on in afghanistan, refugees from those countries will not be given a fair hearing in the uk. they'll be forced to be shipped to rwanda . and as be shipped to rwanda. and as a nation, we've always given refugees a fair hearing when they've come here. having taken dangerous journeys and many refugees from afghanistan who've had to take those dangerous journeys have gone on to settle in the uk, to rebuild their lives, to contribute as law abiding citizens playing by the

rules . rwanda means that won't rules. rwanda means that won't be allowed to do that . be allowed to do that. >> so enver, you by that answer , >> so enver, you by that answer, you assume that this will actually pass quite quickly and become people will become effective and people will go to rwanda . go to rwanda. >> oh, my assumption. listening to the prime minister is that he wants it to happen and he's going to do everything that he can possibly do to make it happen. i'm sure there will be other legal challenges, but i think that's the government's desire and the government will try and make it happen, will try its damnedest, in its words , to its damnedest, in its words, to get flights off the ground to rwanda. it won't work , of rwanda. it won't work, of course, and it won't stop people coming . and it is in effect coming. and it is in effect pushing refugees away from this country who have contributed to this country over many and actually , i think almost the actually, i think almost the greatest consensus is what you've just observed, which is that it won't act as a deterrent , which is the prime minister's sort of key objective of . well, sort of key objective of. well, that's right. and i think it was

particularly telling yesterday, richard , when the permanent richard, when the permanent secretary, the most senior official in the home office appeared before mps in parliament, and he was asked , parliament, and he was asked, will it act as a deterrent? and his answer was pretty clear. he said there's no evidence that it will and we can't say that. so that really is pretty damning, i think, when the top official in charge of delivering this policy for the prime minister says to mps that it won't act as a deterrent, i think that speaks volumes as it really does. >> enver, i mean, it's just extraordinary. we've sent them nearly £300 million and no one, frankly, apart from the prime minister, believes, and maybe that james cleverly thinks it's going work out well , i think going to work out well, i think the policy is actually unworkable. >> i think officials in the home office know that . i think it office know that. i think it won't act as a deterrent . i won't act as a deterrent. i think it will fail. and i think this government, if it's serious about stopping the boats and look, i don't want people to be taking dangerous journeys . no, i taking dangerous journeys. no, i don't want people to be dying in

the channel. but to do that, we need a different approach. the channel. but to do that, we nee fantastic ent approach. the channel. but to do that, we nee fantastic .nt approach. the channel. but to do that, we nee fantastic . enver,'oach. the channel. but to do that, we neefantastic . enver, thank you >> fantastic. enver, thank you very much. we're in agreement. none us this is going none of us think this is going to it's not going to act to work. it's not going to act as a deterrent. coming up, folks, jacob rees—mogg . but folks, it's jacob rees—mogg. but first, the all important weather. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers is sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> good evening . welcome to your >> good evening. welcome to your latest gb news weather update from the met office. dry and clearer weather will move into northwestern areas, bringing a frosty start to wednesday for some of us. but it's going to stay drizzly and quite dull across eastern areas. that says this of pressure that's this area of low pressure that's brought an unsettled day to day pushes into east where it pushes into the east where it will through much of the will linger through much of the day. that mean we've day. that will mean that we've got heavy rain across got continue heavy rain across eastern through course eastern areas through the course of there's of the evening. there's still a rain warning for that rain warning in force for that across parts northeastern across parts of northeastern england and eastern scotland ahead that rain, though, ahead of that rain, though, across the south—east, we'll see quite cloud develop quite a lot of cloud develop overnight. so quite a murky

night a different story, night here. a different story, though, north west though, further north and west where clear spells where we'll see clear spells allowing frost potentially allowing a frost and potentially some patches by tomorrow some icy patches by tomorrow morning. that clearer, morning. and then that clearer, dner morning. and then that clearer, drier weather becomes slightly more widespread the more widespread through the course , spreading course of wednesday, spreading into northern england into parts of northern england as wales and the as well as wales and the south—west of england as well. further east, though, it stays cloudy with drizzly rain through much day. a dull much of the day. so quite a dull and damp with drizzly rain and damp day with drizzly rain developing in southeast. by developing in the southeast. by the of the day and feeling the end of the day and feeling fairly cool well. in the fairly cool as well. in the northwest, though, it feel northwest, though, it will feel fairly in sunshine fairly pleasant in sunshine despite to the despite the colder start to the day . a chilly start in the day. a chilly start in the southeast on thursday morning, but soon cloud over as but it will soon cloud over as the next area of rain arrives. however, heaviest rain will however, the heaviest rain will be much more limited as that is because high pressure is starting to build in for friday and into the weekend as well. so that means we'll see more in the way of dry weather and temperatures rise by day temperatures will rise by day and night. you later. a and by night. see you later. a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on .

gb news. >> big news, big debates, big opinion patrick christys tonight is the week's biggest show every weekday 9 to 11 pm. we've got the inside track on the day's top stories. there'll be sharp takes. you won't get anywhere else. we will set the news agenda. not just follow it. and i want to bring you along for the ride. whatever it is, we'll have our finger the