>> good morning and welcome to the camilla tominey show it's been another big week in westminster and we've got a christmas cracker of a show for you this morning. it's been a tough week for rishi sunak. let's be honest. despite a rebellion, he manage to rebellion, he did manage to scrape through with a victory in a key commons on his rwanda a key commons vote on his rwanda policy. the legislation will policy. but the legislation will be commons in the be back in the commons in the new he just delayed new year. has he just delayed the inevitable with the inevitable battle with his own the deputy own backbenchers.7 the deputy prime minister, oliver dowden, will join me. does he really think the government will be able rwanda bill over able to get its rwanda bill over the will any planes take the line.7 will any planes take off to rwanda next year? well we'll all be gripped. i'll hear from labour's wes streeting two. he's criticised by some on he's been criticised by some on the left this week for suggesting that nhs uses the suggesting that the nhs uses the winter as an excuse to ask for more money. i'll be speaking to backbench mark backbench ringleader mark francois , the man who's been francois, the man who's been nicknamed corleone of nicknamed the don corleone of tory party politics after

organising the rebellion. this week. and he's back from the jungle. but will he be undertaking the trial of his life by returning to frontline politics? gb news is very own. nigel farage will be with me in the studio a little later and crystal balls at the ready . top crystal balls at the ready. top political bods john rentoul and michael portillo, our very own michael portillo, our very own michael portillo, our very own michael portillo, will give us their political predictions for 2024. but let's go through the papers now. actually quite a busy set of papers, considering we're a week out until christmas. nicholas owen, the former bbc news presenter, joins me now. nicholas, lovely to see you loving the tie. >> well, it's christmas . >> well, it's christmas. >> well, it's christmas. >> it's suitably, suitably bright festive . all right. bright and festive. all right. let's talk about the italian job that's been going this that's been going on this weekend. the prime weekend. we've had the prime minister with his minister meeting with his italian counterpart , giorgia italian counterpart, giorgia meloni. interesting relationship that they struck up those two. it is , isn't it? it is, isn't it? >> i mean, seems to me there >> i mean, it seems to me there are quite a few examples we're talking later on about lord cameron the german lady and cameron and the german lady and so getting, might so on. people getting, you might

say, slightly different political perspectives. uh, in general. but here we have very much a meeting of minds soon, using some really strong language now about, uh, immigration overwhelming our country altogether . i mean, country altogether. i mean, these are deep , deep worries these are deep, deep worries that that a lot of people will have. and the italian lady giorgia meloni , she's said it giorgia meloni, she's said it very clearly in italy and it's gone down. generally speaking , gone down. generally speaking, very, very well. there are more difficult thing to get over in this country, i would say, but fascinating, as you say, the two of them, i mean, the dynamic between them, because obviously he's associated with being more between them, because obviously hea associated with being more between them, because obviously hea centrist.3d with being more of a centrist. >> she's considered right >> she's considered very right wing on the left, you wing and some on the left, you know, sort say that she's know, sort of say that she's sort aligned with mussolini's sort of aligned with mussolini's values, which might be overstating however, i just overstating it. however, i just think that's an interesting dynamic. say, the dynamic. and as you say, the language hostile language he's using hostile states, migration to states, using migration to destabilise west was part of destabilise the west was part of his speech yesterday . he's his speech yesterday. he's getting tough on it. in the rhetoric. but will the rwanda bill go the distance, do you think, nicholas? well i, i just think, nicholas? well i, i just think this it's impossible to

get away from the word rwanda altogether, isn't it. >> what is it? is it a country which is sunny? uplands? people can go there and have a better life. why do most migrants come to this country? why do most people their time in boats people risk their time in boats and other things to come here? is it? i don't think it's to come here and be sort of live off the state and things. people want a better life, don't they ? want a better life, don't they? and they're going to get a better life in a country like rwanda. and here's the big catch. if the general catch. of course, if the general election goes the way election next year goes the way that everybody seems to think it will, and nothing's for certain in this life. but bookies say it's chance it's going it's 90% chance that it's going to a keir starmer the labour to be a keir starmer the labour party. they to unwind to be a keir starmer the labour parso they to unwind to be a keir starmer the labour parso are they to unwind to be a keir starmer the labour parso are people to unwind to be a keir starmer the labour parso are people going unwind to be a keir starmer the labour parso are people going to mind to be a keir starmer the labour parso are people going to endi it? so are people going to end up rwanda? a few people on up in rwanda? a few people on the first plane and they're going to come smart? >> i'm going to asking >> no, i'm going to be asking wes actually, wes streeting that actually, because quite work out because i can't quite work out if plan and if they ask the rwanda plan and there people in rwanda, what there are people in rwanda, what actually them, let's actually happens to them, let's have word on rishi sunak have a quick word on rishi sunak helicopter. story in helicopter. interesting story in the sunday times. me about

the sunday times. tell me about it. nicholas well, i take a bit of on this. of a view on this. >> he does bash around in these helicopters. i can't quite remember of which budget it remember out of which budget it comes, something like comes, but it's something like £8 a year to make sure £8 million a year to make sure that the prime minister can hop easily from place to place, okay? because the leader okay? because you're the leader of you do need to of the country, you do need to make pretty quickly. make moves pretty quickly. but there was a plan, apparently to scrap i don't quite know scrap that. i don't quite know what going what the alternatives were going to something cheaper was to be, but something cheaper was on the way. but it's been revealed in i think it's something like the raf's something to do, like the raf's house there casually house newspaper there casually mentioned was all going mentioned that it was all going to changed. there was going to be changed. there was going to be changed. there was going to sort economy to be some sort of economy measure taken it was the measure taken and it was the prime minister himself who insisted, no, i want my insisted, no, no, i want my helicopter, please. that's interesting. and i just think again, messages again, it's this messages business many people business when so many people are struggling, need to. struggling, we don't need to. yeah, perhaps we should yeah, well perhaps we should keep repeating that it just looks bad. it's bad pr it's not great optics. >> also, similarly bad as >> also, it's similarly bad as the optics of him and indeed the king and others all taking separate private jets to cop 28, which i thought was a bit of an

irony. um, let's look at the laboun irony. um, let's look at the labour, um, situation when it comes to immigration and what they're saying about rwanda. there's quite a cheeky story in the mail on sunday about a labour candidate who has been selling to selling children's holidays to the of the country the very part of the country that party insists is unsafe that the party insists is unsafe for legal, illegal migrants. so you've got labour saying we can't send anyone to rwanda because it's not and now because it's not safe, and now they've selected somebody , i they've selected somebody, i think, in bishop auckland think, to run in bishop auckland at next general election. at the next general election. rushworth, who at the next general election. rusiarorth, who at the next general election. rusia company who at the next general election. rusia company selling who at the next general election. rusia company selling children's has a company selling children's holidays out to rwanda. so is it safe or isn't it? i mean, are the labour party flailing on this policy too? yeah, it is a bit ironic, isn't it? >> there's a strange thing, >> yes, there's a strange thing, really, a i'm sending children. i mustn't use those words, must i? getting the i? we're getting into the migration talk, isn't it? >> mean, say children, >> i mean, we say children, i think they organising gap years young , older, think they organising gap years young, older, young think they organising gap years young , older, young people, young, older, young people, teenagers. have experience in >> go and have experience in africa. uh, you know , local africa. uh, you know, local people meet local people , see people meet local people, see how people live and so on. how other people live and so on. sounds lovely idea, but but, sounds a lovely idea, but but, you know, rwanda. hang on a

minute. aren't the labour party sort of against the rwanda plan? well are they or aren't they? i'm not completely confused, but they're this of they're having this policy of sort of being silent assassins and not saying very much about anything beyond soundbites. >> there's substance >> i mean, there's no substance necessarily they're necessarily to what they're proposing stop the boats, but proposing to stop the boats, but i they can remain silent. >> and, well, we do keep saying this, don't have we quoted this, don't we? have we quoted him napoleon, films him before napoleon, the films on go and watch the film. but the best line for napoleon was always, know, your always, you know, when your enemy is making a mistake, do enemy is in making a mistake, do not interrupt exactly. not interrupt him. exactly. i think it's a good policy so far because they're doing all right in the polls . in the polls. >> let's have a look at whether there has been a policy shift on israel. the sunday times is quoting saying it's quoting cameron saying that it's time for sustainable gaza time for a sustainable gaza ceasefire um, let me just pull a quote out of his, um, actual piece here. um he's teamed up with his german counterpart, annalena baerbock, and they claim they are focussed on a three pronged strategy . first, three pronged strategy. first, they support israel's right to

defend itself. but warn, and i quote , the israeli government quote, the israeli government should do more to discriminate sufficiently between terrorists and civilians , ensuring its and civilians, ensuring its campaign is targeted on hamas leaders and operatives . is campaign is targeted on hamas leaders and operatives. is this the foreign secretary saying that he doesn't think that israel are being proportionate? this does seem to mark a bit of a shift, i think. >> i think it does, yes. i mean, first of all, going back to what we were saying right at the beginning, strange alliance here in a way, between a lord cameron, david cameron , prime cameron, david cameron, prime minister, sort of centrist, but basically the conservatives, slightly the wing . and slightly on the right wing. and this her name quite broad. this lady, her name quite broad. >> uh, baerbock. >> uh, baerbock. >> yes. from germany, green party. but they do seem to be representing these two, two disparate strands coming together to say that there's got together to say that there's got to be a sustainable ceasefire and all this sort of thing. i just think it's all very well to talk like this, isn't it? but israel in benjamin netanyahu and the people who support him and the people who support him and the idf absolutely determined to

root out hamas . and the only way root out hamas. and the only way they see of doing that is to be, frankly, incredibly brutal. there's no other way of putting it, is it? and let's not forget what happened to those three hostages waving hostages who came out waving white flags. hostages who came out waving whiorflags. hostages who came out waving whior they were friendly fire >> or they were friendly fire and were gunned down, and they were gunned down, unfortunately, how it's unfortunately, how you get it's to easy talk in these terms about not slowing down. >> you know, having more, trying not to prevent it , trying not to not to prevent it, trying not to have any more civilian casualties . it seems to have any more civilian casualties. it seems to me an almost impossible thing to resolve. absolutely impossible thing. but in the background there are whispers that there's a new deal on the way involving the qataris. inevitably always seem to be the referees in these things. some um, talk that the security chief from mossad, the champion and the israeli secret service, basically be meeting the qataris somewhere in europe. it's always in these rather vague terms. so perhaps something new will be coming out, perhaps there can be some way to pause. >> well, this seems to be it seems it seems to me to be might be wishful thinking. very, very

wishful thinking. i mean, also another shift that we've is wishful thinking. i mean, also anotmilitary that we've is wishful thinking. i mean, also anotmilitary strike ne've is wishful thinking. i mean, also anotmilitary strike that's is this military strike that's covered in the express covered in the sunday express and the papers, but it's and all of the papers, but it's on page 11 of the express saying navy strikes down attack drone. i that to mark i mean, that seems to mark somewhat escalation. somewhat of an escalation. i don't that have, um, don't think that we have, um, taken down a drone like this in a decade . a decade. >> i think the navy has >> i don't think the navy has fired anger for about fired a shot in anger for about ten, 11 years, something like that. but americans have the that. but the americans have the americans been doing americans have been doing quite a this houthi rebels a lot. this is the houthi rebels in yemen who the very, very similar to hezbollah in lebanon, they're all proxies for iran. that's the point. the houthis have been attacking ships and threatening shipping in the red sea. do you know, i think honestly, camilla, i think people have rather not taken their eye off the ball on this one. that's an absolutely critical trade route for the whole world. and if these houthi rebels really start threatening in the way that they are , some in the way that they are, some of the big shipping lines mask and all these others have actually stopped sailings. uh, this is absolutely it's a really

worrying development, very, very worrying development, very, very worrying situation. but isn't it interesting? the point i'm not sure i've made here on gb news before, but what do we actually see? people like iran doing? only acting through these third parties? yes. no. do direct support for hamas in any shape or form? whatever i think that is the most fascinating thing in the book. >> and also, um, increasing numbers of iranians trying to sort of fight back against the ayatollah and some of the mullahs because they're not happy with the way that iran is going. and the murder of the schoolgirl with the hijab and everything else going on. you know, the iranian resistance movement in background is movement in the background is clearly lot clearly putting a lot of pressure on iran general. pressure on iran in general. a final word, nicholas, as a former bbc man about oliver dowden, who's coming up on the show. oh yes. momentarily talking about the bbc being doomsters and saying that some of the conservative party's woes have been caused by the national broadcaster. he also makes a point and has a little dig at gary lineker briefly. nicholas

what's your view on that? >> well, i've been here before to say that gary lineker, i think, was wrong. i said that a long ago. you and i had long time ago. you and i had this conversation that lineker doesn't listening, doesn't seem to be listening, funnily enough. >> we've even got the >> i mean, we've even got the bbc saying he's wrong, bbc chairman saying he's wrong, but there he goes. >> exactly. perhaps new boss >> exactly. perhaps the new boss of bbc will slap him down. of the bbc will slap him down. well, oliver dowden, i'm sorry, sir, fact is the most people sir, the fact is the most people think time for you to think that it's time for you to go your party and. and i do not think we can blame the bbc for that. i am awfully sorry. >> no. and do you think, by the way, that lineker needs to be further disciplined? i mean, there's people calling him there's people calling for him to there's even warning to go and there's even a warning from saying in the from the tories saying in the run the general election, run up to the general election, we you opining any we can't have you opining any further, because last week he made attack on grant shapps made an attack on grant shapps quite i think it's quite personal, and i think it's one about policy, one thing to talk about policy, but to kind of but quite another to kind of lampoon on lampoon politicians on social media. you're working for the media. if you're working for the bbc, i think it's ridiculous. >> feeling >> i can't help feeling that gary lineker he's in an gary lineker knows he's in an incredibly position, incredibly strong position, because should because if the bbc should actually round and say you

actually turn round and say you have broken your contract, it's the you. on the bbc. he the end for you. on the bbc. he doesn't need to worry, does he? i lots of other people, i mean, lots of other people, lots of other broadcast stars, no doubt, particularly in the sporting to sporting world, would love to have so must have gary lineker. so he must have gary lineker. so he must have think there's lots of sports presenters that would love to have gary lineker's job. >> indeed, if he moved from match of the day and went somewhere i mean, just somewhere else. i mean, it just seems to be, um, an ongoing problem. bbc can't seem to problem. the bbc can't seem to solve. yeah, poor old beeb, poor old beeb, poor old. anyway, we don't want to talk about the bbc because of course we have all views here on gb news um, lineker esque or the complete polar opposite. and that's why lineker esque or the complete polcanpposite. and that's why lineker esque or the complete polcan speakz. and that's why lineker esque or the complete polcan speak freely that's why lineker esque or the complete polcan speak freely on t's why lineker esque or the complete polcan speak freely on the vhy we can speak freely on the people's channel. nicole owen, we can speak freely on the peopleyou hannel. nicole owen, we can speak freely on the peopleyou veryel. nicole owen, we can speak freely on the peopleyou very much:ole owen, we can speak freely on the peopleyou very much indeeden, thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning. have a very happy christmas and lovely to thank you for to see you and thank you for your contribution all year round. well, don't go anywhere because got because as i say, we've got a christmas cracker of a show lined i'm to be lined up. i'm going to be quizzing the don corleone of tory backbench mark tory backbench figures, mark francois just after the weather. >> a brighter outlook with box

sponsors of weather on . gb news. sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> hello there, i'm jonathan vautrey . who of your gb news vautrey. who of your gb news weather forecast provided by the met office? it is going to be quite a blustery, windy day for the vast majority of us, some very tightly spaced isobars across providing across much of the uk, providing gale strength winds in places that it's also going to be a very wet day for western areas of scotland, this trailing of scotland, with this trailing weather system that has essentially stalled across this region and will provide heavy and persistent rainfall the and persistent rainfall to the highlands, skye , argyll highlands, isle of skye, argyll and take care and amber and bute. do take care and amber weather warning is in force. significant disruption is possible from flooding even possible from flooding and even landslides elsewhere. it will be a day. the cloud wants to a drier day. the cloud wants to break into the break its way up into the afternoon, particularly the north—east of ground. so north—east of higher ground. so the best of sunny breaks through central england, central eastern england, parts of well, of northeast scotland as well, where temperatures where we'll see temperatures climb 13 c. the rain climb to highs of 13 c. the rain will eventually ease its off will eventually ease its way off for western scotland as we head into the overnight period where it's its way it's going to push its way southwards as a result,

spreading northern spreading across northern ireland, northwest into ireland, northwest england into the well the far north of wales as well the far north of wales as well the holding on to the far south—east holding on to a still a mild one a drier night, still a mild one here. lows of nine degrees celsius, but some drier and clearer pushing way clearer spells pushing their way into scotland. we into northwest scotland. as we start so start off on monday. so generally day here. generally a better day here. elsewhere, though, monday looks to dreary and to be rather drab, dreary and damp, with outbreaks of rain and drizzle quite murky in places . drizzle quite murky in places. hill fog across the pennines, the cheviots still blustery across areas of england and wales , but the winds easing out wales, but the winds easing out for northern ireland. central areas of scotland . further rain areas of scotland. further rain is on the cards as we head towards tuesday and wednesday as well, so keep up to date with the forecast by looks like things are heating up boxt boiler dollars. >> sponsors of weather on gb news . news. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. lovely to have your company this sunday morning. i'm joined now by mark francois, the conservative mp for rayleigh wickford. the for rayleigh and wickford. the don apparently the don corleone, apparently of the conservative party, because you're head mark of the

you're at the head mark of the erg, the european research group, and that's one of the five families as we hear of caucuses on the right. i mean, is this all a bit ridiculous to be talking about five families and you're some sort of godfather and don corleone figure? >> i think it's probably a bit overblown. i am my mother was my late mother. anna was italian, so . okay, i'm half italian. are so. okay, i'm half italian. are you ? my middle name is gino. is you? my middle name is gino. is it now? yes. god. >> knock us up a pasta pesto. >> knock us up a pasta pesto. >> well, look so there's some italian heritage there, but i think some of your colleagues in the have been been the media have been have been getting bit excitable getting a little bit excitable about but look, this about this, but look, the this problem is a problem across the western world. it's not just a problem that's unique to the united kingdom. >> what immigration you're talking about. >> yeah. illegal immigration. yes. mass immigration. and we need legislation that will allow us to stop the boats coming. the prime minister pledged do it. prime minister pledged to do it. we to deliver that pledge. we have to deliver that pledge. the issue is the bill as it's currently drafted and as pointed out by the so—called star

chamber, our team of legal eagles, led by sir bill cash, pointed out there are a number of holes in the bill. that's really why robert jenrick resigned on a point of principle and he laid those out in parliament. so the bill has to be amended in order to, as it were , to plug those holes. so so were, to plug those holes. so so that aircraft can take off to rwanda so that there is a deterrent. >> do you think that aircraft are ever going to take off to rwanda? be real about this, because only i% of the british population think this plan is actually work. actually going to work. >> they could do providing the legislation is sufficiently robust to permit it. >> but then isn't it a fair argument to say that you and your fellow caucuses are in danger of making perfect the enemy of good? well because enemy of the good? well because the legislation is there , if you the legislation is there, if you block it, then what actually happens to the rwanda plan ? and happens to the rwanda plan? and in the process, you're in danger of completely undermining the prime minister in his authority. well the doesn't work , well if the good doesn't work, then it's not good enough.

>> it needs it needs to be good enough. >> it needs it needs to be good enough . now, on a positive note , enough. now, on a positive note, sir, bill cash is already talking to government lawyers about trying to come up with an amendment that actually, if you like , would fill those holes like, would fill those holes that would be a very positive thing too. if anybody can draft that amendment, it's bill. yes so he and others are talking to the government in a positive way about trying to draft something to make sure that the bill is fit for purpose and that amendment will be tabled in time for the committee stage , which for the committee stage, which is probably going to be in the second half of january. michael kill gove told me on the show last week that he felt that this deal last week that he felt that this deal, because we were talking in terms it being half fat or terms of it being half fat or full i was saying that full fat and i was saying that the wanted to be the righties wanted it to be full and he replied that it full fat, and he replied that it was jersey gold top legislation. listen use analogy listen well, to use your analogy , needs be it needs to be , it needs to be it needs to be fat enough and i believe that it should be with good will. it should be with good will. it should be with good will. it should be possible to come up with legislation that actually

is fit for purpose without upsetting other people, talking about fattening things up. >> i mean, my impression of you guys last week is you're threatening this rebellion . are threatening this rebellion. are you just turkey's voting for christmas. you conclude, actually, in reality , that actually, in reality, that you're not going to vote against the legislation even even though you don't like the legislation. so you decide to go for an abstention, which is sort of a fudge a fence sitting exercise because you're all deeply worried about losing your seats . worried about losing your seats. i mean, the criticism of you , i mean, the criticism of you, your caucus of mps, is that you're just blowhards and you're bark is bigger than your bite. otherwise you would have voted the legislation down. >> so we abstained because we took the prime minister at his word. so we took a more moderate course of action. and now we're being criticised for it. so what we did, the prime minister said he was prepared to entertain tightening up the bill. there are obviously lots of discussions that went on behind

the scenes . we at his the scenes. we took him at his word . so rather than try and word. so rather than try and vote the bill down at second reading, we abstain again to allow a breathing space in order to come up with some amendments, which is what bill is willing, i know, but then this is the problem, right? but if i make a i actually think that was a sensible decision to take. but we to get this right we do have to get this right because the public won't forgive us if we don't know. >> but then there was quite a lot of argy bargy, i understand last week with the whips and everything. meanwhile you've got a where of the everything. meanwhile you've got a refuses 1ere of the everything. meanwhile you've got a refuses to e of the everything. meanwhile you've got a refuses to vote of the everything. meanwhile you've got a refuses to vote for: the everything. meanwhile you've got a refuses to vote for this party refuses to vote for this legislation if it isn't amended , legislation if it isn't amended, and then the other half of the party, the one nation group refusing to vote for the legislation if it is. and so people watching and listening to this programme might just think to themselves, what is wrong with the conservative party? why can't you just show some collective responsible unity? it is a case i think, as the prime minister said to the 1922 of unite or die. i mean , just how

unite or die. i mean, just how many prime ministers does the erg and other groups want to bnng erg and other groups want to bring down over legislation ? bring down over legislation? >> well, look, damian green and i. damian green heads the one nafion i. damian green heads the one nation caucus. so you could say sort of my opposite number if you like. and we were chatting quite amicably at a number 10 reception in the week. some journo wrote then wrote up that, you know, we hate each other's guts . we don't. we both fought guts. we don't. we both fought the same seat. we both fought. ken livingstone in brent east when we were starting out in our political careers. damian fought it in 92. i fought it in 97. kwasi kwarteng fought the same seat. so did david gauke, incidentally. so actually , incidentally. so actually, damian and i, on a personal level have always got on. we even at the risk of betraying a confidence, we even talked about maybe going out, uh, for a drink or a meal sometime in the new year to see if we could find some way through. so, so who knew? >> well, let us know, and we'll send along a photographer for that outing. but what that outing. but but, but what i mean i think there is a mean is, i think there is a reservoir of goodwill on both

sides the to party try and sides of the to party try and get this issue right . get this issue right. >> and i think we have to do that because we've had previous legislation that said it would help to stop the boats. now, in fairness, the flow has reduced. it's down by a third, but it patently hasn't stopped. and what i think we need to do is to get people from across the conservative party to try and work together , to see if we can work together, to see if we can find a way through what do you think of rishi sunak as prime minister because you never supported him? >> your kind of tory. >> he's not your kind of tory. so is he mismanaging this whole situation? >> no , no. um, i think let me >> no, no. um, i think let me put it like this. >> no, no. um, i think let me put it like this . stopping the put it like this. stopping the boats is necessary . three. but boats is necessary. three. but it's not sufficient . where are it's not sufficient. where are we? some people think there could be a general election on the 2nd of may to coincide with the 2nd of may to coincide with the local elections, or do you think that. well, my instinct is partly for economic reasons. it's going to be the autumn, but it could be. let's just assume for moment it's the 2nd of

for a moment it's the 2nd of may, right in which case, even if you have a relatively short campaign, parliament would have to be dissolved , which is the to be dissolved, which is the starting gun for general starting gun for the general election in mid—april. today is the december. so we're the 17th of december. so we're less than four months from the beginning of a general election campaign . in that scenario, campaign. in that scenario, we've been 20 points behind consistently in the poll of polls for longer than that. john curtis , the bbc's, you know, curtis, the bbc's, you know, electoral guru, said if things stay as they are , we could be stay as they are, we could be reduced to 130 seats. um, that that's where we are and there's no point pretending that we're not that we're not. so i would say that, you know, whether you're in the erg or the trg across the conservative party, it is time to wake up and smell the coffee, because if things remain as they are, we are heading for a defeat. remain as they are, we are heading for a defeat . we don't heading for a defeat. we don't want to lose. we don't want a

labour government. so we're all going to have to work together to do something about it. what should that something . be we should that something. be we have a number of good policies, but they're atomised . i think but they're atomised. i think what's missing and some of your colleagues in the media have pointed this out. you've pointed this out. there's no overall compelling narrative, as you would say, right? there's no overall narrative that you would like. >> the prime minister to spout. >> the prime minister to spout. >> well, let me just finish the point and then you know what we needis point and then you know what we need is an overall story , a song need is an overall story, a song to sing. if you like, that we can take out of the doorstep. >> all right. so what are the lyrics of this song, mark? >> well, i'll give you one example. >> personally, rather than write the manifesto sitting here in your i'm very keen that your studio, i'm very keen that we commitment to abolish we make a commitment to abolish inheritance tax . i think that is inheritance tax. i think that is aspirational . aspirational. >> give me policies in abolish inheritance tax, bring tax down. >> well, i mean that would be one example. i think of how we of how we can of how we can spend the money. yes. um i

personally think that there's more that we could do on defence. i think defence will be quite a big issue in. yeah, in the general election actually, not least what's going. >> then people listening and >> but then people listening and watching will think, well >> but then people listening and w'you ng will think, well >> but then people listening and w'you don't will think, well >> but then people listening and w'you don't have. think, well >> but then people listening and w'you don't have confidence. >> but then people listening and w'you don't have confidence in if you don't have confidence in the prime minister, why on earth should the prime minister, why on earth sho no, didn't say that. but >> no, i didn't say that. but what seem to feel, i think what you seem to feel, i think he's not doing a very good job. >> no. >> no. >> look, i think rishi sunak will lead into the general will lead us into the general election clear election right? let's be clear about. election right? let's be clear abowell, he won't lead you >> well, yeah, he won't lead you out the election, though. >> will he? well, i mean, wouldn't you prefer suella to be prime minister? >> great deal of >> i have a great deal of respect suella braverman, >> i have a great deal of respl ct suella braverman, >> i have a great deal of respl think suella braverman, >> i have a great deal of respl think rishia braverman, >> i have a great deal of respl think rishi sunakerman, >> i have a great deal of respl think rishi sunak willn, but i think rishi sunak will lead the election. but lead us into the election. but what i'm saying is, i don't think we need to change the leader, but we do to change leader, but we do need to change the because we the strategy because we consistently down and consistently 20 points down and there's point. are you there's no point. are you worried farage worried about nigel farage rejoining worried about nigel farage rejc reform creates problems worried about nigel farage rejcaeform creates problems worried about nigel farage rejca right creates problems worried about nigel farage rejca right winger; problems worried about nigel farage rejca right winger like problems worried about nigel farage rejca right winger like you. )blems for a right winger like you. doesn't for a right winger like you. doewell, i've known nigel for >> well, i've known nigel for many years. you know, he's a rock star politician. there's no there's no denying like him. there's no denying you like him. >> in the tory party

>> back in the tory party >> back in the tory party >> think we've always >> well, i think we've always been church. i think been a broad church. i think there's room the right pew. >> uh oh. is there all right. >> uh oh. is there all right. >> so would you like nigel farage the party and be farage to be in the party and be a future prime minister under the tories? >> camilla, think going >> camilla, i think you're going about fences ahead. your about five fences ahead. your question was, can i question to me was, can i countenance nigel one day countenance nigel farage one day rejoining conservative rejoining the conservative party? i the answer to party? and i think the answer to that yes. that is yes. >> so you'd rather him the >> so you'd rather him join the conservative party than the right wing caucus to which you belong? if there's belong? breaking away if there's electoral oblivion, come next year and going to reform, would you countenance going to reform? >> no, i don't i don't think we want to break away from anywhere . we're conservatives. look whether you're me , me or damian whether you're me, me or damian green, you don't want keir starmer to win the election . you starmer to win the election. you don't want a labour government right now as i said, i fought brent east in 97, in the dying embers of the major government . embers of the major government. by embers of the major government. by then, people had gone for blair in a big way. you could feel it. what is different? here's our opportunity. if we

take it, people have not gone over to starmer , anything like over to starmer, anything like in the same way they did for blair, because the public look at starmer and they see something of an empty vessel. that's our opportunity we need. we can win this election, but we need the ammunition with which to fight . to fight. >> on that note, mark francois, thank you very, very much for joining me. lots more to come on the programme, including nigel farage, who have just been spoken about. don't anywhere

welcome back to the camilla tominey show. so much more to come in the next hour i'm going to be hearing from the deputy prime minister, oliver dowden, labour's wes streeting and mr brexit himself, farage, brexit himself, nigel farage, all and more after the news all that and more after the news with sam francis . with sam francis. >> camilla, thank you. good morning. i'm sam francis in the gb newsroom. the headlines at ten. there's growing pressure this morning on israel with david cameron joining germany's foreign minister in calling for a ceasefire in gaza . in a joint a ceasefire in gaza. in a joint article for the sunday times, the foreign secretary warns that too many civilians have been killed and it's time for a sustainable ceasefire. the intervention is a significant shift in the government's tone on israel's war against hamas terrorists. however, lord

cameron stopped short of calling for an immediate ceasefire. his comments come a day after israel admitted it mistakenly shot and killed three hostages as they attempted to flee captivity . attempted to flee captivity. meanwhile israel's prime minister has suggested that fresh talks may be underway aimed at securing the release of more hostages. benjamin netanyahu told reporters that the gaza offensive had helped lead the release of some hostages. in november , where hostages. in november, where rishi sunak says hostile states are to blame for britain's migration crisis as he works to rally more support for what he's called the radical measures to prevent illegal migration. the prime minister said that opposing nations would drive people to our shores here in the uk to destroy please the west, unless leaders cracked down on small boat crossings . it comes small boat crossings. it comes after rishi sunak travelled to rome to meet italy's right wing prime minister. he told giorgia meloni that growing migration numbers are overwhelming. the ability for international governments to help those who needit

governments to help those who need it most . the teenager who need it most. the teenager who disappeared six years ago, has been reunited with his family here in the uk alex batty was 11 when he went missing on holiday in spain. it's thought he was taken by his mother and his grandfather, who were not his legal guardians to live in an alternative lifestyle abroad . he alternative lifestyle abroad. he was found last week walking alone on a remote stretch of road in the south of france. police say that they are still determining whether a criminal investigation will be launched . investigation will be launched. >> i think it's fantastic news is this is a young man. he's still a child, he's 17, is this is a young man. he's still a child, he's17, he's reunited with his family. still a child, he's17, he's reunited with his family . uh, reunited with his family. uh, and as you say, just before christmas. so yeah, it's brilliant news, uh, for alex. but as i said earlier, we do want the community and media just to respect the privacy of the family at this time. >> laws on drink spiking are to be modernised as calls grow for more action to protect women. more than 5000 cases of needle and drink spiking were reported

to police in england and wales last year , and there are now last year, and there are now calls to make it a specific offence. well, michael kill, who represents over 100 nightclubs and live music venues, said to us this morning here on gb news that the scale of the problem isn't really known . isn't really known. >> this announcement has been hugely welcomed by the industry, uh, particularly around the sort of categorisation because the big thing that we're missing is, is the data. the data has been , is the data. the data has been, uh, hugely sort of, uh, a huge shortcoming for this. uh, and it's something that we've been working alongside government and key stakeholders like stamp out spiking , uh, to try key stakeholders like stamp out spiking, uh, to try and key stakeholders like stamp out spiking , uh, to try and get to spiking, uh, to try and get to this point . so very, very this point. so very, very positive to news hear this yesterday . yesterday. >> well, that's the latest from the gb newsroom. for more we're across the uk on your tv, on digital radio and of course on our website as well. this is gb news . news. >> thank you sam. welcome back to the camilla tominey show.

lots more still to come in just a minute. i'm going to be joined by the shadow health secretary, labour's wes streeting. i'm going speaking to the going to be speaking to the deputy prime minister, oliver dowden. mr brexit nigel farage himself here in the himself will be here in the studio me and crystal balls studio with me and crystal balls at because i'm going at the ready, because i'm going to be joined by political to be joined by two political doyens. independents doyens. the independents john rentoul defence rentoul and former defence secretary michael portillo, to give predictions for give me their predictions for 2024. but first of all, i'm hoping that wes streeting, the shadow health secretary and labour mp for ilford north, can hear me and has joined me this morning. where's lovely to see you. christmas you. um you. merry christmas to you. um i'm morning . i'm confused. good morning. because you've said recently i don't think it's good enough that the nhs uses every winter crisis and every challenge it faces as an excuse to ask for more money. but today , say the more money. but today, say the labour has released labour party has released a press release accusing the government of sending the nhs naked into the winter . so you're naked into the winter. so you're now weaponising the winter crisis. having said that, they shouldn't be weaponising the winter crisis . winter crisis. >> no, of course we recognised

the winter crisis . i mean, this the winter crisis. i mean, this has become an annual feature under the conservatives in a way that it wasn't under labour. my criticism of the prime minister is that he hasn't followed criticism of the prime minister is that ionlasn't followed criticism of the prime minister is that ion the 't followed criticism of the prime minister is that ion the pledgeszd made through on the pledges he made back in january, to make sure that the wasn't as exposed that the nhs wasn't as exposed to the winter as it has been in recent years. he's failed on beds, he's failed on ambulances , beds, he's failed on ambulances, he's failed on delayed discharge and there are 1 in 9 people in our hospitals who are fit for medical discharge but are unable to go back into the community because the support isn't there. that's equivalent to more than two dozen hospitals , patients two dozen hospitals, patients who are well enough to leave. so okay, my argument about the nhs is that, of course , investment is that, of course, investment and of course, money is a challenge. but it's got to go alongside reform and in all of the commitments that labour has made, they are fully costed and fully funded and also directly unked fully funded and also directly linked to reform , because i'm linked to reform, because i'm concerned that thinking about the longer tum future of the nhs with a growing ageing population

and rising chronic disease and rising cost pressures, unless we keep a sharp eye on the costs as they they risk spiralling out of control. and not only will patients overwhelm the nhs with demand, but we will see the nhs bankrupted because of a failure to keep a grip on costs. so i'm just trying to send a message to you, to everyone that the public finances are in a mess. thanks to this shower of a government money is going to be tight and we've got to make sure that every penny of taxpayers money is well spent and the argument on the nhs can't just be more money. it has to be reform and modernisation . otherwise, i fear modernisation. otherwise, i fear that our nhs , as it has been for that our nhs, as it has been for 75 years, a public service free at the point of use, something i fundamentally believe in will be at risk . at risk. >> although how are the labour party going to cope with the spiralling of nhs ? spiralling costs of the nhs? wes, you want to be giving wes, when you want to be giving junior doctors and others huge pay 7 pay rises? >> well, the government has got

to negotiate an end to this industrial action. it is causing untold damage in terms of cancelled appointments and how much should they give the doctors surgeries. it also risks. it also risks staff walking out of the nhs altogether . now walking out of the nhs altogether. now i've walking out of the nhs altogether . now i've been clear altogether. now i've been clear that i can't say that if there's a labour government, we'll be able to meet the 35% pay demand of junior , but if you did, you'd of junior, but if you did, you'd be bankrupting the nhs. we're willing to sit down and negotiate it well, and that's why i and that's why i've been honest with people that the labour can't just in labour party can't just come in and these demands. and meet these demands. the lesson labour lesson of the last labour government, which delivered the shortest and the shortest waiting times and the highest satisfaction in highest patient satisfaction in the the nhs, whilst the history of the nhs, whilst paying the history of the nhs, whilst paying fairly , is that paying staff fairly, is that you've got to get the economy growing, because when the economy grows you can invest in pubuc economy grows you can invest in public without hiking public services without hiking up on people on low and up taxes on people on low and middle incomes in the way that the conservatives had. and that's other reason why i'm that's the other reason why i'm being so about about how being so firm about about how much there will go much money there will be to go around, the . last labour

around, because the. last labour government was able to say, well, we'll invest in the nhs by putting a penny on national insurance. people simply can't afford tax rises on low and middle now. but there'll middle incomes now. but there'll be. hiked be. the conservatives have hiked them we have to them up. in fact, we have to fight hard to get them to fight them hard to get them to u—turn on their own national insurance so people u—turn on their own national insu be ce so people u—turn on their own national insu be asking so people u—turn on their own national insu be asking themselvesle u—turn on their own national insu be asking themselves that will be asking themselves that investments is investments important, but so is reform. people will be reform. but people will be asking themselves, where's you know, end of the day, know, at the end of the day, you're talking about nhs know, at the end of the day, you'rein lking about nhs know, at the end of the day, you'rein a ing about nhs know, at the end of the day, you'rein a cash bout nhs know, at the end of the day, you'rein a cash crisis nhs know, at the end of the day, you'rein a cash crisis and hs know, at the end of the day, you'rein a cash crisis and that being in a cash crisis and that it might bankrupt under tories. >> but the labour party are likely much more it, likely to spend much more on it, not least you're willing to not least if you're willing to entertain anything close to a 35% pay rise . 35% pay rise. >> well, all of the pledges we're making are fully costed and fully funded, not just on the nhs, but everything else. and in terms of our nhs pledges unked and in terms of our nhs pledges linked to reform, for example , linked to reform, for example, the £1.1 billion that we will put into delivering 2 million more appointments a year through extra evening and weekend clinics , is linked to the reform clinics, is linked to the reform of the type we saw on the front

page of the times this week about what they're doing at guy's and saint thomas's, to significantly reduce the backlog. commitment to backlog. our commitment to mental health hubs in every community, and mental health support in every school is a reform, because it reform, investment because it diverts people away from a&e and from overseas gp's. so and in some cases, as with bringing back the family doctor , that is back the family doctor, that is not about putting more money in. that's about scrapping some of the red tape that's tying doctors up in knots, diving , doctors up in knots, diving, getting them away from the under the to be providing to patients because we, we put them under about 55 accountability measures which is just absurd. >> so part of the gp crisis was practical and hard headed way . practical and hard headed way. >> part of the gp crisis was >> but part of the gp crisis was caused by labour, wasn't it, because blair allowed because tony blair allowed doctors for less hours doctors to work for less hours for more pay because of the contract? so how are you going to unravel that? you're talking about that australia inspired gp hubs? how are you going to staff them if doctors don't want to work the hours that my father ,

work the hours that my father, who gp in the 80s and 90s, who was a gp in the 80s and 90s, used to work well, i don't think it's fair to blame the prime minister that delivered an nhs so good that people were complaining that they could, that they were having to see a gp within 48 hours and were struggling to book ahead. >> i mean, wouldn't that be a nice problem to have now? but look, the conservatives have run down practice. there are down general practice. there are 2000 fewer gps . those gps are 2000 fewer gps. those gps are busting a gut. 2000 fewer gps. those gps are busting a gut . they're 2000 fewer gps. those gps are busting a gut. they're providing a million more appointments now than they were before the pandemic. but there aren't enough and much of enough of them. and too much of what of is, is what we ask of them is, is pointless accountability and red tape. would better tape. that would be better directed in terms of that time , directed in terms of that time, time and resource towards that family doctor relationship , family doctor relationship, which we know that gps value and enjoy. patients really value. and all of the evidence says is crucial for getting better output. >> all right. patients can we talk about rwanda? >> is it a safe country? one of your candidates for the bishop auckland seat has been sending teenagers on gap years,

seemingly to rwanda. so is it safe or not? it >> hang on. i don't think you can compare for a not for profit programme . um, to give young programme. um, to give young people the opportunity to engage in cultural exchange with young people from rwanda. so the government's failed rwanda deportation scheme, which has seen hundreds of millions of pounds our money given away pounds of our money given away and not a single flight taking off from the ones filled off apart from the ones filled with secretaries and loads with home secretaries and loads of our cash. >> this then. >> but tell me this then. >> but tell me this then. >> utterly absurd comparison. of course, is a place where course, rwanda is a place where people as tourists, but people can go as tourists, but unless do not unless i'm mistaken, i do not think the organised nation think that the organised nation you mentioned providing those opportunities for young people left the kids in rwanda and flew back. no >> okay, well, tell this >> okay, well, tell me this then. think tell me this then. i don't think tell me this then. >> e- e think we're in a >> i don't think we're in a serious position on this miranda policy because the circle serious position on this miranda polany)ecause the circle serious position on this miranda polany realise the circle serious position on this miranda polany real benefit the circle serious position on this miranda polany real benefit to the circle for any real benefit to the country, and costing a country, and it's costing a fortune to square the circle for us. >> us. >> then say, if you do get into power at the next general election flights have taken election and flights have taken off and people have off to rwanda and people have

been sent there, what is the labour party then going do labour party then going to do with bring back to with them? bring them back to the uk? they >> well now they'll, they'll, they'll have been sent over there but oh so you're leaving them there. say that i'm particular i can't, i can't say i'm particularly optimistic about any of these flights taking, taking off. >> so you would leave these people in rwanda of a scheme and the penny as the penny has dropped for the conservative party but will you leave them in rwanda themselves apart? >> they realise that even if this we'll this scheme is working, we'll see about 100 odd people sent to rwanda . rwanda. >> are you going to leave those people rwanda, streeting? people in rwanda, mr streeting? >> just the other >> more boats just the other week. so i think you have to look at the terms of the agreement that this government has signed. this is their responsibility. it's happened on their watch. and so far the only outcome we've seen from this rwanda policy is the rwandan government all the way government laughing all the way to the bank, because this the silly government has silly british government has handed millions. >> okay. you would leave >> okay. but you would leave these there a single these people there a single

deportation flights taking off. you wouldn't hand them back, you'd leave them the shadow home secretary. >> i'd have to look at the detail. okay? i'd have to look at the detail of the agreement. >> mr streeting, thank you. at the detail of the agreement. >> youstreeting, thank you. at the detail of the agreement. >> you know,1g, thank you. at the detail of the agreement. >> you know, once ank you. at the detail of the agreement. >> you know, once people . at the detail of the agreement. >> you know, once people are settled, you can't just. you can't undo that. all right. can't just undo that. all right. >> you very much indeed >> thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning. forjoining me this morning. have christmas. um, have a very merry christmas. um, listening nicholas have a very merry christmas. um, listeni|our nicholas have a very merry christmas. um, listeni|our reviewer olas owen, our paper reviewer extraordinaire, very briefly, because we're going to wait because we're just going to wait for oliver dowden to for deputy pm oliver dowden to be to me really be ready to speak to me really briefly. reaction to that, briefly. your reaction to that, nicholas? was back to what you >> well, it was back to what you and i were talking about, wasn't it? what would be labour it? what would be the labour party? done, you, for party? well done, you, for sticking it. sticking sticking with it. >> good at talking to >> he's very good at talking to fill out interview. fill out an interview. >> streeting. >> wes streeting. >> wes streeting. >> he's a good he's a good >> he's a good good he's a good media operator. i give him that well, but we didn't really get the we? the answer, did we? >> think did say at the end >> i think it did say at the end he is going to going to he is going to he is going to leave there. if any of them leave them there. if any of them get there. >> if anybody gets there, do you think get there next year? >> really? frankly i don't think this policy workable. this policy is workable. >> that's my view. >> frankly, but that's my view.

don't you think it's interesting that minister is sort that the prime minister is sort of on to for dear of clinging on to it for dear life, even though i think the life, even though i think on the doorstep people concerned doorstep people are concerned about immigrants. about illegal immigrants. >> is the tory >> certainly we are is the tory electorate any electorate electorate or any electorate desperately for desperately clamouring for rwanda don't think desperately clamouring for rwar are don't think desperately clamouring for rwar are all. don't think they are at all. >> i think everybody i speak to about have sorts of about this have all sorts of political views and thank goodnessi political views and thank goodness i friends who goodness i have friends who think sorts of different think all sorts of different ways, from absolute left far ways, from absolute left to far right, one right, none. i haven't had one person that sounds person say to me that sounds like a jolly good idea. yes, they'll ship them off to rwanda. what i think it's i what a very. i think it's i think it's a non—starter. i really do think it's a non—starter. um. >> it's interesting. do we >> it's interesting. also do we think keir starmer needs to think that keir starmer needs to nail the mast a nail his colours to the mast a bit year? mean, bit more next year? i mean, i heard from you earlier sort of saying about and indeed we heard from francois sort of from mark francois sort of talking about whether the labour party not party are all sound bite and not enough and this idea enough substance. and this idea that starmer really blair that starmer isn't really blair because his he understands his vision. he doesn't that of new doesn't have that kind of new labour that kind of labour vision, that kind of thatcherite that tony thatcherite labourism that tony blair associated with. like blair was associated with. like it or loathe i mean, some it or loathe it. i mean, some people on the left it, but people on the left hated it, but it's who is keir starmer?

it's like, who is keir starmer? what he actually stand for what does he actually stand for ideologically, is just ideologically, or is he just another politician? this ideologically, or is he just artheer politician? this ideologically, or is he just arthe trouble. politician? this is the trouble. >> of course that's >> well, of course that's absolutely. i go back to absolutely. but i go back to what i said earlier on really labour are better at bet is just to say as little as possible about all these things. they're, they're coasting along. can there been an occasion they're coasting along. can there a, been an occasion they're coasting along. can there a, when been an occasion they're coasting along. can there a, when an een an occasion they're coasting along. can there a, when an election ccasion they're coasting along. can there a, when an election looked when a, when an election looked more to go this more likely to go this particular way? i know there could be upsets along the way, but frankly, i think the whole country just feels this this government has so many government has had so many chances get things right. so chances to get things right. so many have wrong . many things have gone wrong. let's give the other guys a chance. the oldest way. chance. that's the oldest way. >> a clamour for >> but then is it a clamour for people who always thought, i agree with you, but wondering whether clamouring to whether tories are clamouring to vote for starmer or they're just clamouring maybe, uh, defect , clamouring to maybe, uh, defect, to reform or give the tories a bloody nose by not turning out at all. >> i think reform , if i was >> i think reform, if i was sitting where you do , and your sitting where you do, and your producers here at gb news, this is the this is the very interesting story , isn't it? is interesting story, isn't it? is this really a political this really a new political movement rise or not? we

movement on the rise or not? we tossed the name around, but can anybody name anybody connected with i'm not sure that can. >> i mean, obviously farage and richard tice. >> yes, yes, yes , that's a it >> yes, yes, yes, that's a it doesn't have the momentum of the brexit party, but it's like have they unleashed fully yet? >> i mean i'll be asking nigel about later . >> i mean i'll be asking nigel about later. is he going to about this later. is he going to take helm? i don't quite take to the helm? i don't quite know richard makes of know what richard tice makes of me asking him, are me constantly asking him, are you going to return the helm? you going to return to the helm? because there isn't because obviously there isn't a vacancy now, but just vacancy right now, but i just don't think works without don't think reform works without farage in a key role. >> you need okay, you >> yes. you need okay, you certainly very, very big >> yes. you need okay, you cert.heavy very, very big >> yes. you need okay, you cert.heavy hitter. very, very big and heavy hitter. >> thank you very much. keep at them, keep them, keep at them, keep at them, keep at them. uh, oliver dowd and the deputy prime joins me deputy prime ministerjoins me now, mp for hertsmere now, also the mp for hertsmere near lovely to see you, deputy now, also the mp for hertsmere near liminister. ee you, deputy now, also the mp for hertsmere near liminister. thank, deputy now, also the mp for hertsmere near liminister. thank, de|very prime minister. thank you very much joining much for joining me. >> happy christmas. you're looking with looking festive over there with the tree next to you. >> merry christmas to you too. it little early. it is a little bit early. >> it a little early, my >> it is a little early, my choice of backdrop, but it's very nice. >> never too early look, >> never too early now look, i don't want to ruin your christmas cheer, mr dowden, but let's look at rishi sunak

let's have a look at rishi sunak five plan. he that he five point plan. he said that he would the boats by the end would stop the boats by the end of year. that debt be of the year. that debt would be falling, would grow the falling, that he would grow the economy, that he would halve inflation would nhs inflation and he would cut nhs waiting not really waiting lists. it's not really been a success. we can perhaps give inflation, that's give him inflation, but that's more it. so actually more or less it. so actually these point plan has turned these five point plan has turned out to be a failure, hasn't it. >> well, let's take each of them in turn. as you rightly say, we've actually halved inflation. and that has a real consequence. by and that has a real consequence. by the way. it means that now we're seeing wages rising faster than inflation. and when we're those tax cuts, we announced recently come into force at the beginning of january. okay to get £450 more their pockets get £450 more in their pockets next year. so all right give that one not stop the boats up. >> debt hasn't come down. wait lists are going up. the economy is stagnant . is stagnant. >> well let right. well let's let let's deal next with with stopping the boats. if you'd said at the beginning of the year that we've managed to get

the number of boats down by a third, when if you look, for example, at italy, the number are up 80. we're making progress. but key to that is our rwanda legislation, which , by rwanda legislation, which, by the way, conservatives backed. and every single labour and lib dem mp voted against. we've got more to do on that. but i would say we're making progress. >> but only 1% of the british pubuc >> but only 1% of the british public think the plan will work, so it's hardly a ringing endorsement from a political perspective, dowden ? perspective, is it? mr dowden? >> well, i'm actually confident that this legislation does the job. what? >> you said that to me last yean >> you said that to me last year, though, you said you were confident these flights would take off. >> this, this, this, this, it's aimed at ending this vicious cycle of litigation , stopping cycle of litigation, stopping people being removed to rwanda who've arrived here illegally and can't be deported to their home country and entrenching the treaty that was entered into by the home secretary. if you then move on to the others, which i think you you started on, which

was in respect of growth, actually the growth forecasts have been revised upwards in terms of our bouncing out of covid. and if you look at the strength of the uk economy, whether it's having the third largest, i sector in the world after the us and china, whether you look at the fact that actually our manufacturing base is now bigger than france, i'm actually really confident when i talk to mr dowden and others about the prospects for this country. and they say, why are you talking us down? it's been difficult, i think there difficult, but i think there is real progress next year. real progress to come next year. i've real progress to come next year. pve one real progress to come next year. i've one to talk britain i've never one to talk britain down economy. down or indeed its economy. >> champion for britain >> i'm a champion for britain and all it stands for. but i'm sorry, you cannot possibly look at the growth forecasts that have line with have been produced in line with the autumn statement , and be the autumn statement, and be cheering rafters . cheering them from the rafters. it's stagnant, you know , we it's stagnant, you know, we should be growing much more quickly and at a much greater rate. and that's on you. that's on 13 years of tory rule. why are we in this situation? you can't be celebrating that . can't be celebrating that. >> well , actually, if you look

>> well, actually, if you look at the autumn statement, if you look at the measures, we announced that the obr themselves acknowledged that it would extra 5% to growth. would add an extra 5% to growth. if you look at the our performance over 25 to 28, the next period , it sees us growing next period, it sees us growing faster than france , germany and faster than france, germany and many other countries. but of course, there is more to do . and course, there is more to do. and that's why, for example, we're focusing on business investment. and thanks to the full deduction of expenses , we're seeing of expenses, we're seeing greater business investment in this country. and even a country like united what i'm like the united states. what i'm saying really, is that the measures that the prime minister and the chancellor announced are actually putting the building blocks in place deal with the blocks in place to deal with the growth which don't growth challenge, which i don't doubt problem. doubt has been a big problem. >> they're not working, are >> but they're not working, are they? sunak they? because rishi sunak approval rating keeps on tanking. he's now less popular than boris johnson was when he resigned his approval rating is —49. i've had mark francois on here earlier and you'll be familiar with his erg group and

the caucus of right wingers within the party that want this legislation to be amended . he's legislation to be amended. he's basically saying that it's do or die. and as far as these figures are concerned, i mean, rishi sunakis are concerned, i mean, rishi sunak is now less popular than he was a year ago . he was a year ago. >> well, actually, if you look at what rishi sunak has done over the past year, he has been taking difficult decisions which i think will yield results and has made progress , whether has made progress, whether that's signing that cptpp or entering into the largest trading bloc in the world, whether it's finally moving us to a post—brexit world with the windsor framework or whether it's the biggest tax cuts that we've had since the 1980s, but it's not moved the dial. >> mr dowden, you take difficult decisions when you take those difficult decisions. >> it takes a while for the results to be seen, but you haven't got long, have you? next year people will see the benefit of that. and moreover. well, it actually relates to that point , actually relates to that point, which is in in the years before an election is all what do you

think of the incumbent government when you get into an election year? it's a contrast east, and there's a contrast between what i've described of about the about rishi sunak and the government i caught government and labour. i caught the of what were saying. the end of what you were saying. this starmer trying this idea that starmer is trying to blair in the run up to be like blair in the run up to be like blair in the run up to 97, carrying ming vase to 97, carrying the ming vase across the highly polished floor, dropping it, people floor, not dropping it, people would be wise the fact that would be wise to the fact that when comes to rwanda any when it comes to rwanda or any of other issues, he just of these other issues, he just thinks keeping schtum, it can thinks by keeping schtum, it can come him. well, think come to him. well, i think that's going sustain. that's not going to sustain. >> more quick >> okay, two more quick questions that can be in one parliament. >> both thatcherite and a corbynite. it's extraordinary . corbynite. it's extraordinary. >> quick questions. are >> two more quick questions. are you to amend this rwanda you going to amend this rwanda legislation keep the right of you going to amend this rwanda legipartyn keep the right of you going to amend this rwanda legiparty happy?�*p the right of the party happy? >> well, we will make sure that we have the right piece of legislation. it's not about keeping. >> are you going to amend it? part of the party happier. >> another part of the happy. look, i'm i'm confident that the prime minister has looked at this carefully and got this very carefully and has got the possible measures. but the best possible measures. but if there ways of improving if there are ways of improving it as any

it further, just as with any piece of legislation, we'll work with of with backbench members of parliament, including conservatives, make conservatives, if we can make it even of course we'll do even better of course we'll do that should we see all of that and should we see all of lord cameron's, uh, financial interests? >> been covered by >> they've been covered up by a blind trust . that's not right. blind trust. that's not right. he's a very senior member of the cabinet. he's foreign secretary why of this being kept why is all of this being kept under wraps ? well we have under wraps? well we have a process for doing this. >> there's an independent adviser on ministers interests. he goes through all of the interests, and then he advises on the most appropriate ones to declare that advice has been followed fully. it's the way that it's been dealt with for many and i think that's many years. and i think that's that's the appropriate to that's the appropriate way to address things. that's the appropriate way to achf ss things. that's the appropriate way to achf they things. that's the appropriate way to achf they tum,s. that's the appropriate way to achf they tum, chinese or >> if they are, um, chinese or indeed uae controlled interests. nigel farage is right to have written in the telegraph yesterday that lord cameron should have nothing to do with the decision making around the ownership of the telegraph. should mr you're should he? mr dowden, you're a former culture secretary. what do you think of the idea of a national newspaper being owned by a foreign state?

>> well, i have to be a little careful on this one because there's two potential decisions makers in respect of this. first of all, there's the culture secretary and you know, where she's got to in terms of issuing that notice. and it going to the what do you think, though there may be an issue at some point? no, but that this is the key point. there's also a process under the national and under the national security and investment i make investment act where i make decisions the quasi judicial decisions and the quasi judicial capacity. prejudge capacity. so i can't prejudge any decisions that may come to me respect of it. but in your me in respect of it. but in your wider point in the role of the foreign secretary, really is foreign secretary, it really is the secretary and the the culture secretary and the nsc process. those are independent judicial independent quasi judicial processes and finally, i'm speaking to nigel farage in just a moment. >> you welcome him back >> would you welcome him back into the conservative party? mr dowden ? dowden? >> well, i don't i don't think the conservative party needs a nigel farage to win the next election. nigel farage has been has been supporting ukip for many years if he wishes to join the conservative party, that's a

matter for him. >> but aren't you worried about the threat from reform? there are 11% now in the polls. they're going eviscerate some they're going to eviscerate some of votes in the shires, of the tory votes in the shires, aren't they? >> you know better than i >> well, you know better than i do these polls go up and down. in the end. there's only two people that can be prime minister after the next election, rishi sunak or keir starmer. we will be making starmer. and we will be making vigorously case rishi vigorously the case for rishi sunak to our prime minister sunak to be our prime minister with a majority conservative government oliver dowden, thank you very >> oliver dowden, thank you very much joining me this morning much for joining me this morning . go anywhere . well, don't go anywhere because as i've just said, he's going to be in the studio back from the jungle. um, what i want to know , though, is nigel farage to know, though, is nigel farage actually going to be re—entering front line politics any time soon? i'll be hearing from the man himself in just a minute. don't go anywhere.

on gb news, the people's channel on gb news, the people's channel, britain's news channel . channel, britain's news channel. welcome back to the camilla tominey show. lovely to have your company on this sunday morning. nigel farage joins me now . honorary president i forget now. honorary president i forget this is your title and founder of uk . um, and this is your title and founder of uk. um, and indeed my of reform uk. um, and indeed my fellow gb news colleague and jungle hero . shall we call you jungle hero. shall we call you that, nigel? >> i don't mind if you do. >> i don't mind if you do. >> how did you get on then? what did you learn most about yourself when you were out there? >> do you think my biggest fear was physically? could i get

through it? yes. you know, i was a lot older than the rest of the people there. yes. plus i've got 1 or injuries that i'm 1 or 2 injuries that i'm carrying. indeed plane crashes, carrying. indeed plane crashes, car whatever. the car crashes, whatever. so the big my back hold big fear was would my back hold up it? get through? up to it? what i get through? um, what i learned was easy. um, and what i learned was easy. really? yeah. exercise you really? yeah. more exercise you get, stronger you become. so get, the stronger you become. so i left there after 23 nights in the jungle. uh, no tea, no coffee, no salt, no sugar, no alcohol. lots of exercise. looking lean and mean and yeah, you know , fitter and stronger you know, fitter and stronger than i've been since i was at school . so i learned that school. so i learned that i could do it. i also learnt something else which i never would have believed, and that was that i could totally overcome, all fears. overcome, um, all my fears. >> what greatest fear >> what was your greatest fear going bushtucker trials going in the bushtucker trials and my fear stormed through those, but my fear was that i'd show fear i'd look weak. >> yes. um. i didn't want that . >> yes. um. i didn't want that. and that may sound a bit of a old fashioned stiff upper lip approach to things, but i managed to overcome all of that, and it was interesting because i was in there was some really

fit, strong young people. yeah. and some of them were having nightmares about the trials, about insects , the snakes. about the insects, the snakes. and just breezed through it and i just breezed through it all. i really pleased all. so i was really pleased with thing. with the whole thing. i thoroughly enjoyed it and i'd do it again. >> and what's the reaction been now i mean, now that you're out? i mean, obviously think that the obviously i think that the impetus behind doing it apart from fat check, let's be from a big fat check, let's be honest, fact that honest, is also the fact that you broaden your horizons you can broaden your horizons ans can appeal to a greater ans you can appeal to a greater number of people who might not be brexit be familiar with the brexit stuff you in a new light stuff and see you in a new light . was the intention? . was that the intention? >> two points really. >> well, the two points really. i firstly, there are lots i mean, firstly, there are lots of people out there who 12 of people out there who were 12 at time the referendum at the time of the referendum who now a voting age, who who are now a voting age, who don't much about don't really know much about nigel that was useful. nigel farage that was useful. secondly a lot of people out there who come to hate me there who have come to hate me because of what written there who have come to hate me becaumef what written there who have come to hate me becaumefvthese written there who have come to hate me becaumef vthese rags. tten about me in these rags. >> well, one of them isn't >> yeah, well, one of them isn't a rat. one of them is a esteemed organ for the moment. organ of news for the moment. >> we'll get on to that in >> um, we'll get on to that in a minute. >> yeah. thank you. >> yeah. thank you. >> people do form their >> so people do form their perceptions the basis what perceptions on the basis of what other and i did other people say. and i did think was a real

think this was a real opportunity. you can't over three weeks pretend three and a half weeks pretend to be any different to you to be any different to what you are. number of people in are. and a number of people in the first few days have come up to me and said, look, nigel, we never liked you before, to me and said, look, nigel, we neviactually liked you before, to me and said, look, nigel, we neviactually weed you before, to me and said, look, nigel, we neviactually we think before, to me and said, look, nigel, we neviactually we think you're , to me and said, look, nigel, we neviactually we think you're an but actually we think you're an ordinary, normal bloke. yeah so i it's done me lot of i think it's done me a lot of good and there's some polling out 2019 conservative out amongst 2019 conservative voters a 20% in voters suggesting a 20% shift in my favour. >> oh, this is why are you >> oh, this is it. why are you looking about your looking at polling about your political favour when you're not? >> because people send it to me and let's it, and let's and let's face it, and let's face voters people. face it, voters are people. >> this, >> let's drill into this, please. because need please. because because we need to know you're planning. to know what you're planning. >> i do too. >> well, i do too. >> well, i do too. >> well, i do too. >> well, what are you planning? >> well, what are you planning? >> at the moment. >> i think at the moment. >> i think at the moment. >> not? >> why not? >> why not? >> i've just come out of, >> well, i've just come out of, you know, nearly a month away. >> um, lots of thinking time, though. >> yes. and i think this conservative have conservative government have failed almost every degree. failed in almost every degree. i think country is in managed think the country is in managed decline . it feels a bit like the decline. it feels a bit like the mid 1970s to me. i don't see any prospect of a starmer government being different. i think the being any different. i think the quality of life for most people, most families, is getting a

little bit worse every year in a number of ways. you can't get a gp appointment moment. um travelling, the cost of living . travelling, the cost of living. yeah. the prospect of your kids ever getting a house? yes. the population explosion that's been caused by a westminster consensus that effectively supports legal immigration on levels we never even dreamt of. so. so for all of those reasons, i look at things and think, well, you know, if i was to come back into the front line of politics, could i make a positive difference? could i change things as i see it for the better against that? you know, i enjoy working here at gb news. i've got options, perhaps more options after doing the jungle. so you know , one would jungle. so you know, one would be a easy life . one would be a very easy life. one would be a very easy life. one would be going into the sort of, be back going into the sort of, you know, helter skelter of politics. >> you can't resist it, can you? well, i haven't decided. >> i genuinely see let me find the observer. >> this is an interesting headune >> this is an interesting headline about let's see. headline about you. let's see. they're you want to they're saying that you want to perhaps return to the fray. farage will help reform, make

election about immigration. former brexit party leader poised to return to politics, claim allies . claim allies. >> well, that's just speculation i >> -- >> well, come on, nail your colours to the mast a little more. maybe you want to tell me that you don't want to do it now? now that you want to come back a bit later, maybe you want to see what happens to the conservative party. what's left of and then reconvene here. of it, and then reconvene here. >> well, another option. >> well, that's another option. is let the election go is that you let the election go by the inevitable the by the inevitable happens. the conservatives lose heavily, or perhaps routed . i perhaps they're even routed. i mean, you know, it's not impossible that go to impossible that they go down to 120 seats, like that. 120 seats, something like that. it easily, you know, it it could easily, you know, it could happen. there could happen. um, and there might be argument that that's might be an argument that that's the back the right moment to get back involved. i'm not, involved. i genuinely i'm not, you know, i'm not trying to get away from your questions. i genuinely haven't made my mind up. it is, on a political level, a big decision. but on a personal level, too, it's an enormous decision. >> but isn't reform gaining the momentum now? i mean, yes, it is. >> and reform is the great thing about reforms growth is that

it's solid organic growth. it's steady. happening week by steady. it's happening week by week, month. the week, month by month. the polling that i've seen since i came out of the jungle, it's consistent now 10 to 11. so you know we're pushing up to where it was a decade ago. >> but then that begs the question, not then when ? question, if not now, then when? because this point of because we've got this point of crisis for the conservatives. i mean , oliver dowd and all mean, oliver dowd and all earlier sort of insisting everything's even though everything's fine, even though rishi approval has rishi sunak approval rating has dropped boris dropped to below boris johnson's. so it's almost like the perfect chemistry for you to come back. well it isn't, it isn't. >> i mean, of course, if we had european style elections, ironically with proportional with proportional represents russian. >> the only part of the european politics that you were in favour of. >> well, actually most of the world has a degree of representative democracy. it's just sort of us in america stuck with very 19 century model. with this very 19 century model. so if we had even if there was an element of pr in our elections, i think i think the answers i'd give you this morning would be a lot more positive. i'm still very

bruised. by 2015. yes. you're getting 4 million votes in one seat. yes how's the point of this? yes. and? and you know, maybe believe of the maybe if you believe some of the private the minute , private polling at the minute, maybe, you reform , if maybe, you know, reform, if i was heavily involved, we'd get between 5 and 6 million votes in three seats. i have to ask myself, is it worth it? >> well, it's worth it if you want to give conservative a bloody nose and you're so concerned about the country going to hell in a handcart, i'm not. something needs be not. but something needs to be done. know basically done. no i know basically i don't see any difference now between the labour party and the conservative in terms of conservative party in terms of their leaderships. >> these two models of big >> these are two models of big state, high tax, open door immigration and social democracy . and ironically, you know, with david cameron back, i mean, you wonder now with foreign policy whether we've left the european. >> do you agree with the tactic of making reform's entire campaign based on immigration? >> i think, no, not solely . that >> i think, no, not solely. that would be wrong. i think there were three major issues out there at the moment. i think the population explosion in and the

impact on people's lives and the fact it's not being fact that it's not being discussed is huge. um, it's the biggest exists biggest disconnect that exists between and the between westminster and the country. but equally , i think country. but equally, i think the cost of living is very real. yes i think the inflationary squeeze is that people have felt are leaving a lot of people really quite scared out there at the moment. but i also think the nhs been absolutely nhs has been an absolutely central our lives for central part of our lives for over three quarters of a century, and, you know, we know it's not perfect , it can't be it's not perfect, it can't be perfect, but we expect basic things such as going to see a doctor. yes and when you read that 15 million people, 15 million appointments. so far in this calendar year have taken more than a month. yeah more than a month to see a gp. so we've got some major crises out there. we clearly need radical reform. we need different thinking . so no, i think they thinking. so no, i think they are the three key areas. >> let's talk about a couple of other things that you're obviously personally invested in. traverse smith report in. the traverse smith report into cuts has concluded that there was no evidence of

discrimination in any of the exit cases, including no evidence of a customer's account being escalated for exit or ultimately being exited due to political views or party political views or party political affiliations or other protective characteristics . what protective characteristics. what do you make of that total baloney right? whitewash. >> you only had to read the subject access request yes on me, which clearly said i did not augn me, which clearly said i did not align with the values of so what's going on here? >> well , travis smith of course >> well, travis smith of course headed up there. >> emeritus boss, is somebody who described brexiteers as xenophobes and racists. i mean, this is the big club, isn't it? it's howard davies . mates called it's howard davies. mates called him to do a review . they did say him to do a review. they did say that many of the procedures that were being followed were very subjective and not being done correctly . um, overall , the correctly. um, overall, the report's not worth a read. all right. after this, i'm going to read it. >> well, i'm going to read it now. in fact, coote's new chief executive, mohammed saeed, said the recognise the the bank quotes recognise the need our customer need to improve our customer service closure service account closure processes those improvements processes and those improvements are underway. is

are already well underway. it is clear lessons to clear .that there are lessons to be learned. the experience of some of customers short some of our customers fell short of should expect, and of what they should expect, and we apologise to them just in the interests of balance. i must read talk david read that let's talk about david cameron. did you find out that he in post before went he was in post before you went to jungle? to the jungle? >> was put into post >> i think he was put into post two days right before i went in, and even though was sort of in and even though i was sort of in and even though i was sort of in a period of purdah, did have a period of purdah, i did have sky australia and saw sky news australia on and i saw that cameron been appointed. that cameron had been appointed. i could not believe it. i simply could not believe it. and here we are and true to form, here we are this morning with his first major foreign policy statement. yes. doesn't do it from yes. and he doesn't do it from a british perspective , an british perspective, an independent foreign policy. he does conjunction with the does it in conjunction with the germans, which i thought was very interesting , as if the very interesting, as if the brexit vote had never happened. but i also saw some of the wording in it. >> yeah, here it is. the israeli government should do more to discriminate sufficiently between and between terrorists and civilians, ensuring campaign civilians, ensuring its campaign is leaders and is targeted on hamas leaders and operatives. they saying is targeted on hamas leaders and operthees. they saying is targeted on hamas leaders and operthe israelis they saying is targeted on hamas leaders and operthe israelis are 1ey saying is targeted on hamas leaders and operthe israelis are trying'ing is targeted on hamas leaders and operthe israelis are trying to; that the israelis are trying to kill civilians? >> the implication in >> well, the implication in there is that civilians have been targeted. that is clumsy.

it is an offensive in the extreme to the israelis, you know, who are doing their best. and i do believe they're doing their absolute best to minimise civilian casualties. they can see that global opinion is a very , very delicate area for very, very delicate area for them . um, the reason i suggest them. um, the reason i suggest to you that it's so badly worded is, i guess, the joint statement was written in german, and then translated into english. and you know, with cameron there , it's know, with cameron there, it's as if we're ignoring the brexit result. we're ignoring the architect of it, and it just shows you how much trouble they're in. and it shows you also that the whole 2019 election, when they tried to become the brexit party, they never really meant it. >> no. and also, you're concerned about him having any involvement at all in the governmental decision making over the future of the telegraph? >> well, i'm worried about this. i mean, i know you've spent many, many years working for the telegraph think it has telegraph titles. i think it has quite a unique position . now, if

quite a unique position. now, if you go back to the pandemic , you go back to the pandemic, when you know even some of the most conservative newspapers like the sun and the mail supported every measure, anyone that wasn't adhering was a covidiot . it was really only the covidiot. it was really only the telegraph. during that period saying, should we really be locking down like this? are we really getting this right? are we happy that government has taken this, this amount of our liberty any question? liberty without any question? so the have and, you the telegraph does have and, you know, joke it being know, people joke about it being the house magazine of the conservative but does conservative party, but it does actually quite actually have a quite distinctive and you distinctive position. and if you apply distinctive position. and if you apply that spectator apply that to the spectator magazine, yes. which is the longest running weekly political publication world, these publication in the world, these are two very, very important titles . in our media landscape . titles. in our media landscape. and the worry is that if you put it into hands of effectively autocratic dictators who have their own series of vested interests , it's that it won't be interests, it's that it won't be good for the independence of the newspaper and in the middle of

all of this, of course, is our friend lord cameron. now who has been a visiting professor at at a uae university , taking their a uae university, taking their money. and the point that i made yesterday in a piece that i wrote was that he should be nowhere near the government's decision making process. so point one cameron shouldn't be there. and frankly, i mean, after the greensill scandal, how they could even consider him being back in government is quite beyond me. but more importantly , i think i think importantly, i think i think that the regulator ofcom , i that the regulator ofcom, i think the competition and markets authority, i think the british government themselves ought to be saying, excuse me, ought to be saying, excuse me, ought to be saying, excuse me, ought to be saying that in the interests of, you know, media plurality in this country , this plurality in this country, this is a very bad idea. >> nigel farage, thank you very much indeed forjoining me this much indeed for joining me this morning. have a very merry christmas and a happy new year. thank you very much indeed. it should pointed out that

should be pointed out that redbird is the group redbird imai, which is the group which the is on behalf of which the bid is on behalf of for telegraph, that for the telegraph, say that editorial, impartial reality editorial, uh, impartial reality will not be compromised and insist that journalistic accuracy accuracy will also be preserved. just to say in their defence, well , lots more still defence, well, lots more still to come on the show. i'm going to come on the show. i'm going to be speaking to two political titans, michael portillo and john rentoul, about what, 2020 4th may bring. so stay tuned for that. don't go anywhere

through until 7:00 this evening. gb news the people's . gb news the people's. channel. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. well, if anything can be predicted about 2024, it's that it's going to be a political banger because we're expecting an election. maybe in may, maybe in autumn. but to discuss what might happen in the next 12 months. i'm joined by john rentoul , who's the chief john rentoul, who's the chief political commentator at the independent, and michael portillo , former defence portillo, former defence secretary presenter from secretary gb news presenter from 11 lovely to see you both , 11 am. lovely to see you both, chaps. thank you. let's start with what's gone before. so can i ask you both, first of all, john, for your kind of key political moment of 2023? >> well, i thought the for the long terme the most significant thing that happened in 2023 was rishi sunak backing off net zero targets. i thought that was that was the moment when in an awful lot of this green talk, which

people, people love and everybody subscribes to it. everybody wants to save the planet, starts to hit reality because as that, as that deadune because as that, as that deadline for ripping out people's gas boilers approaches and getting rid of petrol cars , and getting rid of petrol cars, um, the political problems of that and the costs to people's pockets is becoming, becoming much clearer. >> this was an example of rishi sunak actually being quite political, which doesn't often happen. political, which doesn't often happen . let's have a look at the happen. let's have a look at the clip . yes. net zero is going to clip. yes. net zero is going to be hard and will require us to change. >> but in a democracy we must also be able to scrutinise and debate those changes. many of which are hidden in plain sight in a realistic manner. this debate needs more clarity , not debate needs more clarity, not more emotion . the test should be more emotion. the test should be do we have the fairest, credible path to reach net zero by 2050? in a way, there we are . in a way, there we are. >> i love his kind of bedtime book at bedtime type tone.

michael what's your key moment of 2023? >> let me say that i think john's moment was a very good one and mine is more personal, because it's kind of the moment that i finally up with that i finally gave up with rishi sunak, because when he announced that he was to announced that he was going to ban progressively. ban smoking progressively. so we'd situation where we'd arrive at a situation where 28 can legally buy 28 year old can legally buy cigarettes a 27 year old cigarettes and a 27 year old cannot. thought this was such cannot. i thought this was such an i thought an practical idea. i thought he'd touch with reality. it he'd lost touch with reality. it had nothing to do with conservatism. i thought he was a man devoid of ideas and plunging into a policy which i think has been poorly thought through and not , although what's not researched, although what's notable from both of your big moments of 2023 is neither of them involved. >> keir starmer, i mean, john has bloke what it takes has this bloke got what it takes because might win the because he might win the election by default, but not necessarily of necessarily in a kind of blairite. wants keir to blairite. everyone wants keir to be pm. >> he's e he's not, he's not tony >> well, he's not, he's not tony blair, much to my regret. >> but but he's you can't argue with results. i mean, he has taken advantage of tory weakness with a ruthlessness which we

didn't suspect was there. and you've got to give him credit for that. >> although he doesn't always perform brilliantly at pmqs, it performs very poorly. >> i mean, he had one good pmqs this year, i think, where he really he knocked rishi sunak about. really he knocked rishi sunak about . i mean rishi sunak was on about. i mean rishi sunak was on poor form but he is also defending a very difficult situation. yes but you know , i situation. yes but you know, i do think i mean people are i mean i've got a lot of criticisms of keir starmer. i don't like his basic political instincts, but you can't argue with the results. he has positioned himself extremely well. >> yes. he's the next thatcher apparently. >> john. well and the next tony blair as well. >> i think he's managed the labour party quite impressively. i mean, obviously the war in gaza has presented a big issue for labour party because for the labour party because most are instinctively most of them are instinctively pro—palestinian and keir has held line of being quite held the line of being quite pro—israeli and specifically not

against a ceasefire of the sort that the israelis don't want. he's held that line. i've been quite impressed by that. and i think over the last couple of weeks, the rumblings have rather died down as we get deeper into this crisis or or further into this crisis or or further into this crisis or or further into this crisis at least. this crisis in time at least. >> can i ask you for your >> can i ask you both for your predictions next year? predictions for next year? i know it's always tricky, but , know it's always tricky, but, um, i speaking to mark francois earlier. spoken to nigel earlier. i've spoken to nigel farage. effect might he farage. what effect might he have on things? oliver dowden there a positive there painting a positive picture, sunak picture, even though rishi sunak sunak's rating is down sunak's approval rating is down in gutter . it's sunak's approval rating is down in gutter. it's —49. michael in the gutter. it's —49. michael what do you think will actually happen? first of all, when do you think the election will be? uh, october over. okay. and what do the result might be? >> i think it will be a labour landslide. and my reasons i mean, firstly, that's what the opinion tell us. i've opinion polls tell us. and i've sort given being able to sort of given up being able to see the opinion polls should see why the opinion polls should change. to be change. nothing seems to be bouncing back for government bouncing back for the government in that you might in the way that you might normally expect but things normally expect it. but things that additionally that have gone additionally wrong conservatives are . wrong for the conservatives are. i the reform party is i think that the reform party is looking quite strong . i think

looking quite strong. i think robert jenrick's resignation is quite an important moment because he was kind of telling tories, look, the government could do more about the boats, but it's choosing not to because it's more committed to international law than it is to deaung international law than it is to dealing issue. dealing with the boats issue. i think is , you know, such think that is, you know, such a gift to reform party. and gift to the reform party. and of course , the other thing is that course, the other thing is that the snp is in a state of collapse, that to favours a strong labour majority. >> so do you think kind of electoral wipe—out , what do you electoral wipe—out, what do you think worse than 97 or. >> um, i mean that is such a guess, isn't it. i mean, if, if reform is performed well, you know, we're going to see tories losing seats where we might not have predicted it. so what was 97? it was about 160 for the conservatives. i think that's perfectly plausible. >> and john, first of all, your prediction for when the election will be october the 24th? >> oh, possibly very specific . >> oh, possibly very specific. >> oh, possibly very specific. >> okay. or. >> okay. or. >> well, except i'm not quite i'm not sure i've written about this the independent. this for the independent. >> okay hold

>> fair enough. okay we'll hold you to that. >> i mean, i think it could be december because i mean, october would out the party would mean wiping out the party conferences. and actually conferences. yes and actually earn a lot of money from those. >> yeah. okay. and your prediction for result, john. prediction for the result, john. >> think it's going to >> well, i think it's going to be a small labour majority really. i don't i don't buy into the landslide territory. i think onceit the landslide territory. i think once it becomes a choice between prime ministers um, you know, you've got a choice between keir starmer or rishi sunak. i think the gap will narrow . the gap will narrow. >> okay. all right. so not total eviscerate ian. and then final question for you both . who do question for you both. who do you think if it is an electoral calamity , rishi sunak leaves calamity, rishi sunak leaves immediately . calamity, rishi sunak leaves immediately. right. do calamity, rishi sunak leaves immediately . right. do you both immediately. right. do you both agree on that chap. yeah who do you think will be the next leader of the conservatives? >> you mind if i tell a quick anecdote quickly? anecdote very quickly? >> because we're running out of time, as ever, on monday of >> because we're running out of timyelection r, on monday of >> because we're running out of timyelection week, monday of >> because we're running out of timyelection week, 1997,»nday of >> because we're running out of timyelection week, 1997, they of the election week, 1997, the headune the election week, 1997, the headline the was headline in the times was heseltine portillo to battle heseltine and portillo to battle out conservative leadership. >> of the week, i had >> by the end of the week, i had lost my seat and he had had a heart heart attack

heart attack, a heart attack right? absolutely. with in right? absolutely. with that in mind, i think jenrick mind, um, i think robert jenrick has come up very, very well. um, i suella bravermans i think if suella bravermans name got to the party in the country, she would win. but the question michael , it country, she would win. but the question michael, it won't. question is, michael, it won't. >> all right. very quickly, john, a name. john, give me a name. >> badenoch. kemi badenoch >> kemi. badenoch. kemi badenoch is bet. is your bet. >> the next. >> the next. >> she. i think that's a >> how she. i think that's a very. you think i mean michael's right. you can't predict these things. moment things. but at the moment i think kemi is in the strongest position. she i think she's >> i think she i think she's a very good bet. i agree with that, michael. >> to have >> john, lovely to have agreement at the end of the show. thank you very, very much indeed your support. this indeed for your support. this yeah indeed for your support. this year. great year. the show's gone. great guns. we're doing brilliantly in the we look forward the ratings and we look forward to more 2024, when i'll to doing more in 2024, when i'll see meantime, see you again. in the meantime, have very merry christmas and have a very merry christmas and portillo's next at a brighter portillo's up next at a brighter outlook solar, sponsors outlook with box solar, sponsors of whether on . gb news. of whether on. gb news. >> hello there, i'm jonathan vautrey who of your gb news weather forecast provided by the met office? it is going to be quite blustery, windy day for

quite a blustery, windy day for the vast majority of us, some very tightly spaced isobars across providing across much of the uk, providing gale winds in places gale strength winds in places that also going that it's also going to be a very for western areas very wet day for western areas of scotland , with trailing of scotland, with this trailing weather system has weather system that has essentially stalled across this region provide heavy region and will provide heavy and rainfall the and persistent rainfall to the highlands, skye, argyll highlands, isle of skye, argyll and take care . an amber and bute. do take care. an amber weather warning is in force . weather warning is in force. significant disruption is possible flooding and even possible from flooding and even landslides . it will be landslides elsewhere. it will be a drier day. the cloud wants to break way into the break its way up into the afternoon, particularly the nonh afternoon, particularly the north east of higher ground. so the sunny breaks through the best of sunny breaks through central parts central eastern england. parts of well, of northeast scotland as well, where temperatures where we'll see temperatures climb highs of 13 c. the rain climb to highs of 13 c. the rain will ease way off will eventually ease its way off for as we head for western scotland as we head into period, but into the overnight period, but it's push its way it's going to push its way southwards as a result, spreading across northern ireland, england into ireland, northwest england into the well the far north of wales as well far to on a far southeast, holding to on a dner far southeast, holding to on a drier night. still a mild one here. lows of nine degrees celsius, but some and celsius, but some drier and clearer pushing way clearer spells pushing their way into scotland. as we into northwest scotland. as we start monday, so generally start off monday, so generally are better day here. are a better day here. elsewhere, monday

elsewhere, though, monday looks to dreary and to be rather drab, dreary and damp, with outbreaks of rain and drizzle quite murky in places. hill fog across the pennines , hill fog across the pennines, the cheviots still blustery across areas of england and wales , but the winds easing out wales, but the winds easing out for northern ireland. central areas of scotland . further rain areas of scotland. further rain is on the cards as we head towards tuesday and wednesday as well, so keep up to date with the forecast for by looks like things are heating up, but boxt boilers sponsors of weather on .

gb news good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. >> join my festive feet of feast of arts, politics, culture and good conversation . well, the good conversation. well, the government survived its vote on the safety of miranda bill, but conservative rebels are arming for fights in the new year. rishi sunak has travelled to italy to share with its prime minister, giorgia meloni, their share. passion for margaret thatcher. rishi resemble thatcher. does rishi resemble her any way perhaps a her in any way except perhaps a rwanda is as daft a policy as the poll tax . and while mrs. the poll tax. and while mrs. thatcher warned that we might be swamped by immigrants , rishi swamped by immigrants, rishi talks britons being talks of britons being overwhelmed. meanwhile keir starmer is maintaining a sympathetic stance towards

israel whilst