when i was a boy, i quite enjoyed school. you know, maths, latin, english. but there was one subject that made me anxious is religion. i was told that someone in the old testament drove his chariot furiously at, and that another danced delicately, and i wanted to say, and your point is. delicately, and i wanted to say, and your point is . and there was and your point is. and there was this chap called jesus who

suggested we should all be kind to each other and not obsessed by power and money. and he got crucified for that . it seemed crucified for that. it seemed a bit unfair , for i became bit unfair, for i became frightened that some thing that was so clearly important , from was so clearly important, from the way that people behaved about it, was completely incomprehensible . so i decided incomprehensible. so i decided it was all rubbish. so i became an atheist for about 25 years, and then i read a book by aldous huxley that said there were two approaches to religion. one was to do with people hoping to have some experience of the divine and the other was the religion of words and symbols, which seemed to me to boil down, to crowd control. but that first bit got me interested. now my first guest here is helen. helen, i want you to look at that camera and tell me your

name . name. >> the name's bond. helen bond. ha, ha. thank you. >> i love it. now you are professor of . christian origins professor of. christian origins at university of edinburgh . at university of edinburgh. >> yes. that's right. >> yes. that's right. >> and i've asked helen because actually, we know each other. >> we have. we met before. >> we have. we met before. >> we have. we met before. >> we met before. and you will not believe when the monty not believe this when the monty pythons doing the at pythons were doing the show at the o2 in 2014, we did 15 performances to 16,000 people at the very same time . there was a the very same time. there was a conference going on right at what, university of london.7 >> it was king's college london, and it was put together by our good friend joan taylor, who can't be with us because she's in new zealand and joan organised. >> i've been quite serious, a conference about the effects that the film life of brian had had on biblical studies. right. >> and it was one of the most

popular conferences ever. people were just queuing up both to be on the on the line—up and also to come along to them. >> and there's a real book of the proceedings of this conference. so what, what i can't remember what did they say that the film had done to help christian scholarship .7 christian scholarship? >> well, i suppose the thing is, it's a useful thing to think with. so we thought about what are the things that the pythons got right and there's lots of things that the pythons got right . and, you know, right. and, you know, particularly to do with the political social world of political and social world of the first century, situating jesus within this jewish landscape and also some of the things, perhaps, that the pythons got wrong or that they're just help us to think a little bit about how we're putting together the life of jesus. it was really interesting to think that we given actually given proper academics a new perspective. >> so i thought it would be fun if i asked helen some questions about christy vanity, which are

kind of very, very simple. but i think that there are things that people don't know. i mean, for a start, we what evidence is there for christ's existence other than what's in the bible? >> there's actually really good evidence that he existed , and evidence that he existed, and it's not from absolutely the same time, but from about sort of 60 years later, there's a jewish historian called josephus , and he writes about jesus . the , and he writes about jesus. the passage has been edited by christians. so we have to be a little bit careful about it. but we're pretty sure that he did write something about jesus, and he was a jewish historian, a jewish historian . he's got no jewish historian. he's got no particular axe to grind about christianity. he just lists it in, in amongst a sort of a series of tumults and problems that happened when pontius pilate was governor. and then within a century of the life of jesus, we have roman writers mentioning him. so we have tacitus, we have pliny

mentioning christian. >> are they saying, well, tacitus, he he says that jesus was was executed. >> he suffered the supreme punishment. crucify fiction under pontius pilate. and he's actually interested in in christians, in, in rome under nero. so that's what he's telling us about. but just as a sort of side line, an intro, he just mentions jesus. >> there's all this evidence that's not from inside the bible i >> -- >> yeah. and the thing is, people will say, oh, well, that's decades later. but given the fact that jesus was an artisan, he's a kind of person who would not normally show up in any kind of records. who would not normally show up in any kind of records . and, you in any kind of records. and, you know, again, we've lost lots and lots of information , lots of lots of information, lots of written texts from the ancient world. and we know more about jesus than we actually do about many other significant people from the classical world. >> more than we know about john. >> more than we know about john. >> mhm. what is this all about? >> mhm. what is this all about? >> well, it's about christianity i >> -- >>a --

>> avery -- >>avery. >> a very. >> a very. >> all right. let's talk now about the bible , which is about the bible, which is obviously our main source . what obviously our main source. what were the first time, time anybody wrote about jesus was my mark. >> no, actually what people don't always realise is that the earliest christian texts are from paul. so probably in the late 40s or so, paul the apostle, the one who goes sailing about the mediterranean and founding christian churches . and founding christian churches. he's the first one to write, and he writes letters to all these places that he's visited . i see, places that he's visited. i see, so they're from the 40s, 50s. >> christ is crucified around 33. or is it later ? 33. or is it later? >> around about early 30s? yeah >> around about early 30s? yeah >> so within a very few years paulis >> so within a very few years paul is writing about it. yeah. >> so paul, paul becomes a christian within, you know, very soon after that . and, and then soon after that. and, and then he starts on his journeys and certainly within 15 years or so, he starts to write letters. and paul knows people who knew jesus and the disciples are writing

letters to christian communities which have already formed . yes, which have already formed. yes, some of them he formed himself. and so he's kind of keeping in touch with them by by letter afterwards . afterwards. >> now tell us what the bible tells us about jesus. his ministry starts through the years before his death . years before his death. >> it's very hard to know . years before his death. >> it's very hard to know. i mean, three, three years is taken from john's gospel, which suggests that there's at least, well, there's three passovers there. so you've got at least sort of two and a half years. mark's gospel and matthew and luke give us no sense of chronology. i mean, maybe, maybe three years, i mean, maybe longer. we really start in galilee and we start with, i shall make you fishers of men . shall make you fishers of men. >> yes. >> yes. >> or people we would say nowadays. >> oh, sorry . yes, sorry. i >> oh, sorry. yes, sorry. i forget about this stuff. i'm very old. i know the king james version. yes. fishers of people

and then we hear about some of his sermons and some of his miracles . healing people , which miracles. healing people, which i find quite possible because they are healed . those who can they are healed. those who can do extraordinary thing. i think there's no doubt about that at all. >> well, i think it's interesting that that in the ancient world the opponents don't say , no, he couldn't do don't say, no, he couldn't do those things . i mean, some of those things. i mean, some of the rabbinic sources call him a sorcerer, but what they're disputing is where the power comes from, you know, is he challenging channelling the power of god or is he working with with evil spirits? but i think historically de jesus's miracles were probably the most significant thing about him. it's the miracles that draw the crowds. and, you know, in the ancient world there's very few doctors or people with any medical knowledge . everyone must medical knowledge. everyone must have had something that they wanted healing . so all these wanted healing. so all these people are coming to him and in a way, once he's got that

captive audience, then he starts to tell them about the kingdom of god. this this sort of place, this , this new realm where god this, this new realm where god is going to be in charge. and that's when he's got his his audience after the crucifixion . audience after the crucifixion. >> can you sum up what the bible says about what happens then in terms of the resurrection ? terms of the resurrection? >> well, yeah. so on on the sunday morning, >> well, yeah. so on on the sunday morning , the third day, sunday morning, the third day, um, women come back to the tomb and they find it empty and don't know quite what to do about it. in mark's gospel, they just run off. that's it. they're terrified . and in the other terrified. and in the other gospels, they also include appearances of the risen jesus. and so that then, uh , uh, i and so that then, uh, uh, i suppose , persuades jesus's suppose, persuades jesus's followers that he's not dead, but he has . and in their but he has. and in their language of the gospels, he has been risen . he has been raised. been risen. he has been raised. so he's been raised by god. this isn't something he does, but god raises him up.

>> there's always this gap between the fact that religions are always founded by mr x, and i think christ was a mystic . you i think christ was a mystic. you know, most of us don't go into the desert for 40 years. you know, i think 40 days, not 40 days. >> i don't think we'd survive 40 biblical studies . 40 days. biblical studies. 40 days. >> um, he was a mystic and yet rely regions seem to finish up being administered by people who are deaf , not mystics, and who are deaf, not mystics, and who seem to be a bit more like bureaucrats who are determined to preserve the power of the organisation . organisation. >> they're started by mystics or charisma, mystics, people, people who , by the strength of people who, by the strength of their own personality , their their own personality, their their own personality, their their sense of the spirit . but, their sense of the spirit. but, um, can can gather crowds around them. i think . i mean, what my them. i think. i mean, what my reading of, of, of certainly certain periods of christianity

is that this sort of move towards bureaucracy often happened with the best of intentions. so, you know, in those early years , um, those early years, um, christians thought that the end of the world was coming when they realised that it wasn't coming quite so soon as they'd thought , they start to realise thought, they start to realise that, you know , we've got to that, you know, we've got to we've got plan , we've got to we've got to plan, we've got to plan to the world. we've plan to be in the world. we've got to sort of batten down the hatches. we've got to look, um, you respectable . and you know, respectable. and that's the point, actually , that's the point, actually, where where women start to be sort of pushed down and smothered by christianity . it's smothered by christianity. it's extraordinary, you know, i mean, in, in, in jesus's time, women are disciples. there's very good evidence for women disciples and even paul, who gets a bad press on this, he talks about women as deacons. he sends letters with women. um, he talks about women as apostles. he's very open to women's ministry. >> does this , does this all >> does this, does this all change with constantine? >> but i think a lot of the

damage had been done by then. you know, the sort of hierarchy had already developed. i mean, it much more , um, sort of it became much more, um, sort of articulated and, and, and clear cut . by that time, women articulated and, and, and clear cut. by that time, women had already been sort of pushed down and oppressed and, um, and i think throughout the sort of the history of the church, there's always there's always some threat, you know, whether that's the rise of science or rationalism and, and often i think the way that the church reacts is probably wrongly, is to sort of batten down the hatches. you know, we believe that fundamental . that fundamental. >> yeah. it works as a sort of a power organisation . helen, this power organisation. helen, this has been an absolute delight. you've told me stuff i've been thinking about. i won't say all my life. i say since i started reading stuff preparatory to writing life of brian. thank you for coming. thank you .

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>> only on gb news, the people's channel, britain's news channel . channel, britain's news channel. >> now there's a very good reason why i want to talk to my next guest , who was a professor next guest, who was a professor of philosophy of religion at cambridge . right. cambridge. right. >> associate professor. but thanks for promoting me. you're a professor. >> i'm not prepared to argue about this, james. or everything . that i looked at when i got interested , noted in religion interested, noted in religion was an effort for me because i had to uproot all the assumptions that i got from being in a christian culture for umpteen years . can you talk umpteen years. can you talk a little bit about that? >> well, john, what happened to you happened to the west about 500 years ago. um, you know , 500 years ago. um, you know, once upon a time, religion often didn't really mean anything as something that was as just a distinct tradition . you know, distinct tradition. you know, once upon a time, there was no

secularism. there was no real religion. everything was christian loosely, everything was christendom . um, and so it's was christendom. um, and so it's only really when , you know, when only really when, you know, when the west moved out and started to in the age of exploration in particular, started realising that very sophisticated that these very sophisticated belief systems elsewhere in the world. yeah. and so that's when people started thinking, well, well, gosh, there are other traditions here. there are other belief systems. which one's right? and so religion right? and then so religion emerges alongside secularism. um the idea that actually if we're going to make sure we haven't got any wars over this stuff because people feel this, these beliefs pretty deeply, we should make sure we've got a nice neutral public square. and so we should start privatising these these beliefs . um, but i think these beliefs. um, but i think when you were coming of age, not so long ago, um , the world was so long ago, um, the world was opening up to all sorts of different traditions, and britain was opening up to , um, britain was opening up to, um, migrant communities who were believing different things and

were trying to navigate these different, belief different, different belief systems so was there was systems. and so it was there was a sort of sense of dislocation and a sense of something that we were so familiar to us is starting is not obvious to everybody. >> i mean, one of the assumptions was that most religions have a god , right? religions have a god, right? theni religions have a god, right? then i discover that hinduism , then i discover that hinduism, uh, can be said to have lots of god. and of course , buddhism god. and of course, buddhism doesn't have any at all. >> yeah, yeah, well , there's >> yeah, yeah, well, there's been a fascinating treasure hunt in the last 50 years among scholars who study religion for the meaning of religion. and it turns out, 50 years on, they still can't quite work out what the definition of a religion is , the definition of a religion is, really, because, as you say , really, because, as you say, there are all sorts of traditions that we'd want to say that's definitely a religion , that's definitely a religion, but they don't seem to be theistic. they don't really seem to sort of god as the to have a sort of god as the object of their worship, in quite the way that we would understand. i think maybe understand. so i think maybe a better way thinking about it

better way of thinking about it is, know, what are the sort is, you know, what are the sort of of religious belief. of features of religious belief. and lots of and there are lots and lots of ingredients that go into the mix. often of mix. there's often a sort of sense of sacred, something sense of the sacred, something that needs to be set apart around can around which the society can sort itself . there's sort of build itself. there's um, there's a ritualistic element. often there's an emotional element. it's something that just to do something that isn't just to do with the mind and just to do with the mind and just to do with cognition, but but meaning what you know, the what satisfies, you know, the sense of the yearning for some, uh, some explanation for, for the way the world is that you guys satirised so well in in the meaning of life. um, and that's something that, that it's not just religious people come to think but also philosophers . think of, but also philosophers. i mean, yeah, think of think of aristotle aristotle you aristotle. aristotle says, you know apart from the know what sets us apart from the rest the animal kingdom is rest of the animal kingdom is that a desire to that we're driven by a desire to understand . it's very, very understand. it's a very, very strange feature of, of human beings that should of, beings that we should sort of, you they should you know, that they should spend their afternoons sitting down talking about things like religion. it's very curious behaviour the animal kingdom behaviour for the animal kingdom . um, and so religion, you can

think of religions as a sort of the human response or expression or , or the human attempt to or, or the human attempt to reach a certain set of answers about questions of fundamental concern, questions of ultimate concern. what is it going to be ultimately . concern. what is it going to be ultimately. this is the most important. and that might be a god. it might be jesus. it might be brian it or it might be brian's gourd, or it might be brian's gourd, or it might be brian's sandal. you know, there's a focal point for the sacred around which a group can organise themselves and start making sense of the world. >> but your idea for or clarity, that clarity is important to defining the members and all that kind of thing that isn't true of some of the eastern religions because that's more about practice than than, uh, theology . erg. yes. theology. erg. yes. >> i mean, there's an enormous sort of mix of, of practice and theology and in fact, very profound philosophy . and when we profound philosophy. and when we talk about theology and we talk about philosophy, we sometimes forget that there's actually no difference between the two before, certainly the west ,

before, certainly in the west, before, certainly in the west, before about, what, 1600, before round about, what, 1600, both . were ways of trying to both. were ways of trying to answer the fundamental questions. and so in hinduism, in the eastern traditions , you in the eastern traditions, you have these incredibly sophisticated philosophical treaties , um, from millennia treaties, um, from millennia before that, that talk , um, that before that, that talk, um, that try to understand how what human beings are and what the nature of ultimate reality is. so brahma, for example , or the brahma, for example, or the ground of being the genius of most of the great religions, is that they recognise that the sort of deep philosophical questions don't, don't sort of disseminate very well to those who are not thinking about philosophy . and so you need you philosophy. and so you need you need proper positions, you need clarity and you also you need rituals and you need and, you know, rituals we're talking about are we talking about spiritual practices or could be spiritual practices or could be spiritual practices. they could be private spiritual practices of private devotions and so on. be private spiritual practices of theyte devotions and so on. be private spiritual practices of they couldotions and so on. be private spiritual practices of they couldotions abe so on. be private spiritual practices of they couldotions abe public. or they could simply be public. um uh, practices. just sort of you know, crossing yourself

before going to church , a meal, before going to church, a meal, just just turning up and just doing it without without thinking very much . and that's, thinking very much. and that's, that's an important feature of religions, this religions, particularly in this day when we're so day and age when we're so disembodied, staring at our screens. the whole time and we constantly, you know, there's a real there's a great sort of difficulty in, um, trying to sort of well, we tend to detach ourselves. technology detaches us. it dislocates us from our embodied practices , as it were. embodied practices, as it were. and so religion has is a good anchor for that . um, it's potent anchor for that. um, it's potent . and that's something that just mere beliefs and propositions and creedal statements don't, don't really deliver. james >> that's great. i want to come back to you later because i want to something you've been saying to something you've been saying to me when we were talking earlier that absolutely fascinated me. but i want to come back to that. and see you then. right . there's

come back to that. and see you then. right. there's something rather important , isn't that we rather important, isn't that we haven't really chatted about yet. and and that's next. could you , uh, possibly buzz off? you, uh, possibly buzz off? thank you very much. this is professor julius lipner, who's going to tell us all about hinduism . um, so in hinduism, hinduism. um, so in hinduism, you do have a number of gods. can you explain that to me? yes >> i spent most of my career, john, trying to disprove that . john, trying to disprove that. oh, really? yes, in the sense . oh, really? yes, in the sense. well, you are right. and you're wrong in the same time, which is 7 wrong in the same time, which is ? i'll take both. which is an achievement. yes we all do that. there are a number of gods in the sense that one supreme the sense that the one supreme being . yeah if i can coin a word being. yeah if i can coin a word , purifies, manifests . being. yeah if i can coin a word , purifies, manifests. in different forms . so, so each god different forms. so, so each god is an aspect of the one supreme

being . being. >> ah. and the one supreme being. >> in a more non—descriptive sense is called brahman. brahman with brahman is comes from the sansknt with brahman is comes from the sanskrit word meaning or verb meaning to be great. >> the great one, great one, connected with word brahman , connected with word brahman, connected with word brahman, connected with word brahman, connected with the word brahman. >> yeah , exactly. the brahman is >> yeah, exactly. the brahman is the english form of brahman. ah the english form of brahman. ah the brahmanas who actually were the brahmanas who actually were the priestly caste for brahman. yes. yeah so a . non descriptive yes. yeah so a. non descriptive terms, as it were, is brahman, brahman but brahman was then given personal names by by different factions or groups of hindus. oh i see, and you have three major groups . yeah. those three major groups. yeah. those who regard the personal name, the name above all names as vishnu. so brahma. is vishnu and the followers of vishnu are

vaishnavas , those who regard vaishnavas, those who regard brahman under a different heading and different perspective as shiva, shiva and the followers of shiva are shiva's um. and then fairly uniquely among world religions , uniquely among world religions, those who regard the supreme being . in those who regard the supreme being. in feminine terms, shakti . so shakti means power. so the goddess. >> now, when you're talking about what, um, buddhism , about what, um, buddhism, there's a great emphasis on meditate and spiritual exercises to try to purify your spirit, youn to try to purify your spirit, your, your . essence. yes. what your, your. essence. yes. what do you have in hinduism? that's the equivalent. >> similarly, i mean , not >> similarly, i mean, not everyone is good at meditation because you have to be still. >> yes, you have to contemplate. but switch your phone off, switch the phone off, the mobile off.

>> it's very hard for hindus to do. i can assure you. and but the thing there is that it is an exercise in visualisation . exercise in visualisation. hindus are trained to visualise , hindus are trained to visualise, visualise the deity , visualise visualise the deity, visualise certain aspects of the life of the deity so that they can plunge into that life and be part of it. jenny early hindu worship is not particularly communal as you would find in christianity . christianity. >> that's what i'm interested . >> that's what i'm interested. yeah, it it seems much more individual. >> it is much more individualistic. but not not to say that there is no communal worship. no. but but a great deal depends on the individual being prepared and so during the rac service, which is at a fixed time , uh, they will turn up to time, uh, they will turn up to the temple . and then there's the temple. and then there's a service where in the holy of

houesis service where in the holy of holies is not in view. service where in the holy of holies is not in view . there's a holies is not in view. there's a screen . and during the rmt , um, screen. and during the rmt, um, there may be some hymns , uh, there may be some hymns, uh, there may be some hymns, uh, there are some priestly rituals. and then the bell is rung, a handbell . and as the bell is handbell. and as the bell is being rung, the deity will screen may or may open or a makeshift screen , and you get a makeshift screen, and you get a viewing at darshan of that deity. and that is a sacred moment, a very special moment. >> but that can be a communal moment. >> well, you are with other people there, but it's individual and it's you are it is individual in its experience because you are making contact with through this darshan , this with through this darshan, this viewing with the deity, the deity views you. you view the deity views you. you view the deity . you know you're among deity. you know you're among a community. yeah, but it doesn't have that same communal dimension necessarily as you find in christianity. >> yes . i like

find in christianity. >> yes. i like the more individual approach, because i think the trouble with the christian approach is you sort of go and look a bit po faced for a couple of hours and then go off and screw people financially for the rest of the week . week. >> i would make no comment on that , john, but to come back to that, john, but to come back to your question about your original question about the, uh , different forms of the, uh, different forms of vishnu, shiva or the goddess . so vishnu, shiva or the goddess. so you have these three individual preferred names of the deity . preferred names of the deity. but then vishnu manifests in many forms , and there is what many forms, and there is what you can call this a monotheism, but a polymer morphic monotheism . so the one god manifests in numerous forms at a tiny bit, like christian trinity , where like christian trinity, where you sort of somehow have three separate elements, but actually they're all one, 3 in 1 and 1 in 3. yeah except that you can have 15 one and one and 15. >> yeah . which is more interesting. >> yeah. but they would. so shiva would be brought in for a

vaishnava vishnu ceremony. but he'd be subservient to vishnu. but if i were to describe hinduism in two words, i would say adaption and absorption. hindus are very good at adapting and they're very good at absorbing ideas into their own system from other traditions they are. and by adapting, hinduism can continue to be relevant in contemporary times. so the concept of avatar or the taking on of a different form of one individual or one deity is such that many hindus jesus is an avatar of vishnu , so he's an avatar of vishnu, so he's been brought in to the hindu fold, absorbed and adapted , and fold, absorbed and adapted, and they've got traditions and avatars of vishnu . but jesus has avatars of vishnu. but jesus has been added by many hindus and say he's an avatar for the

christians. he came for down the christians. he came for down the christians and he's god is helping the christians through jesus . jesus. >> i love the inclusive . >> i love the inclusive. >> i love the inclusive. >> that's it. it's a very inclusive. >> thank you so much . >> thank you so much. >> thank you so much. >> fascinating. thanks. thank you

now a rather odd question . for now a rather odd question. for our resident pollster , frank luntz. >> frank , how do you quantify >> frank, how do you quantify why religion ? why religion? >> excellent question, john, but it's complicated. the fact is, the fastest growing religions are no religions at all. all atheists, agnostics are growing atheists, agnostics are growing at five and 6% faster than christianity , islam, hindu . but christianity, islam, hindu. but the real question is how do you measure religion and what we have found? the more dedicated

you are, the more likely you are to identify with a religion. so those people who attend church may be once a year. they don't really count. it's the people who identify religion as being essential in their lives . and in essential in their lives. and in that case, christianity and islam are the fastest growing religions . religions. >> thank you frank. >> thank you frank. >> round about the time that i discovered aldous huxley's essay , um, i began to get a little bit interested in alan watts and his writings about eastern religion and what immediately drew me was , was buddhism . um, drew me was, was buddhism. um, because it's non—regulatory in the sort of western sense and, and it just seems so terribly sensible . so i thought it would sensible. so i thought it would be fun to ask some questions about buddhism. kate . crosby, about buddhism. kate. crosby, hello . hello. thanks for doing hello. hello. thanks for doing this show. thanks for having me .

this show. thanks for having me. uh, you teach buddhism at oxford? that's right. now you're wiggy here. do i pronounce your name right? wiggy yes, wiggy. the rest of your name is unpronounceable to somebody like me. thank you very much for coming. it seems to me that buddhism does not have a god . buddhism does not have a god. >> well, that's part . true. >> well, that's part. true. >> well, that's part. true. >> partly true. >> partly true. >> so there's no creator god? no god who can save us. uh huh. that's something we have to do ourselves with the teaching of the buddha. but not everywhere the buddha. but not everywhere the spreads . it adopts the buddhism spreads. it adopts the buddhism spreads. it adopts the gods . of the area. so when the gods. of the area. so when it's spread to the west, a lot of people were atheist. so no gods for western buddhism. but for example , in sri lanka, where for example, in sri lanka, where venerable is, from there you have a whole range of gods that are useful for things that are part of ordinary life. you know, like passing your exams or you

need help with healing or something like that. you can go to a god, but they're all like us, caught up in the round of rebirth , death and rebirth. rebirth, death and rebirth. samsara >> i want to ask when you pray to whom you're praying . to whom you're praying. >> actually, we don't pray . we >> actually, we don't pray. we don't pray. yes, we respect , uh, don't pray. yes, we respect, uh, to the buddha, the dharma and the sangha, the. these three are called triple gems . then we called triple gems. then we respect to them and we follow the teachings preached by the buddha with highest respect to the teacher. the buddha is our teacher. he is not a god. actually i'm very interested that buddhism, unlike islam or christianity or, uh, judaism , christianity or, uh, judaism, these are religions of the book. >> they're there are many sacred writings , but they're not writings, but they're not thought of in the same kind of way that the religions of the

book respect . that the book, am book respect. that the book, am i right? >> that's right. so there are, uh, so after the buddha died, they gathered up all the teachings they could remember that he had given some were teachings about how to behave, some special rules for some were special rules for monks and nuns to follow . and so monks and nuns to follow. and so those were the two first collections. but they're more like a library. so they have lots of books in them on different topics rather than a single book. so probably about the of maybe 90, 90 books. the size of maybe 90, 90 books. >> oh, really ? >> oh, really? >> oh, really? >> so it's a library. yeah. so you can go to one for ecclesiastical law, another for poetry. that's about teaching this kind of thing. some stories, lots of stories about the buddha being in a particular place and teaching a particular teaching for , for a particular teaching for, for a particular person. >> f- e these written down? roughly. >> so they were orally remembered from the time of the buddha's death. so about three months after the buddha died, which is what year? oh, this is in sixth century, before the in the sixth century, before the common about 2500 years

common era. so about 2500 years ago . right. the buddha dies and ago. right. the buddha dies and three months after they have a big gathering and people record what it was, they remembered him saying. and which rules they remembered him setting down. and then people become specialists in memorising those bits of text , and it passes down over the generations . and we think that generations. and we think that they first started writing down about the first century before the common era, when they were worried . ah, this is my water. worried. ah, this is my water. >> when they were worried that water might go about losing the teachings, the dharma, the teachings, the dharma, the teachings because of famine and warfare . warfare. >> so at that point they thought it. down. it. write it down. >> you it seems to me that >> you see, it seems to me that christianity is often sort of saying we should saying about what we should be doing buddhism has a way of doing, but buddhism has a way of saying how we can get there. i mean, when christ said, love thine enemy, the answer is how i know what i mean . that's right. know what i mean. that's right. so saying move backwards in time, you say, well, you're

sure, but how do i do that? whereas with the buddhist buddhism is working on the inner part much more than christianity, nor really does, except in the mystic traditions, and that that seems to me to have a better chance of improving everyone's first of all, happiness. but also their behaviour to others. >> there are some very good meditations , for example, to meditations, for example, to deal with, with, um, hatred or angen deal with, with, um, hatred or anger. there's a meditation to develop loving kindness towards yourself first and then extend it to others . yes, to get rid of it to others. yes, to get rid of jealousy . there's a meditation jealousy. there's a meditation on developing joy at other people's success and well—being, and that's really useful. so that love your neighbour. it's got techniques for actually developing those. that's what excites me. >> yes, because i saw program many years ago about buddhism. um, a friend of mine, ron air, made it for the bbc. it was called the long search and he was saying to a buddhist monk, uh, reach sounds a bit selfish working all the time on yourself

and the buddhists monks said yes, if it stopped there. but you can't love other people until you can love yourself . until you can love yourself. that was very powerful for me. do you have any thoughts about that? >> yes, actually, we have two main concepts in buddhism . uh, main concepts in buddhism. uh, karuna and metta . loving karuna and metta. loving kindness and compassion . these kindness and compassion. these two help us, uh, to serve the society. uh these two are limitless thoughts which , uh, limitless thoughts which, uh, anses limitless thoughts which, uh, arises in our mind. limitless thoughts which, uh, arises in our mind . uh, arises in our mind. uh, therefore, if we can develop compassion and loving kindness towards all the beings in this world, uh, not only to human beings . yeah. to towards all the beings. yeah. to towards all the beings, including animals, include living creatures and other , uh, sentient beings . other, uh, sentient beings. cats? yes. cats also actually ,

cats? yes. cats also actually, charlie's practising loving cats. >> look at him. >> look at him. >> he's the adorable. you know, i was once lucky enough to interview the dalai lama . um, a interview the dalai lama. um, a person on a different level . um, person on a different level. um, but i did ask him. i said, when inoficed but i did ask him. i said, when i noticed buddhists. they smile and laugh a lot . and he said to and laugh a lot. and he said to me, i think when people laugh, they can have new ideas . they can have new ideas. >> that's quite important in buddhist texts as well. so the early buddhist texts, so the buddha would sometimes times get somebody to see something by making a joke out of it. so basically undermining, um, people fixed views by showing them a funny side. >> you see what appeals to me about buddhism? >> to go back to what we were talking about earlier is the fact that people are working on themselves and having spiritual exercises , most of them exercises, most of them meditation will, uh, which will enable them . to process negative

enable them. to process negative feelings and turn them more into positive feelings and there's a lot of people or younger people now who are saying, always trust your feelings. now who are saying, always trust your feelings . that doesn't seem your feelings. that doesn't seem to me very good advice. you but the buddhism highlights that understanding the mind is very important actually. >> after identify saying the inner feelings , one can control inner feelings, one can control those inner feelings. inner feelings, one can control those inner feelings . for those inner feelings. for example, anger. uh, when we get angry ' example, anger. uh, when we get angry , actually, we feel , uh, angry, actually, we feel, uh, different kinds of thoughts. if we release those thoughts into the society, actually, what will happen? >> yes, yes, yes. >> before releasing those kind of thoughts, actually, one should have to control those thoughts. the way for that is meditation . yes, actually. meditation. yes, actually. >> then meditation in meditation , when you're examining your feelings. yes rather than accepting them. unkrich hinckley. right. yeah, yeah, yeah.i hinckley. right. yeah, yeah, yeah. i can't think of any more

questions . kate, you've got any questions. kate, you've got any suggestions ? suggestions? >> well, why don't we stop talking and have a little bit of meditation to finish off? sure. okay okay. so we've talked about loving kindness and developing that. loving kindness and developing that . if we all loving kindness and developing that. if we all just loving kindness and developing that . if we all just sit here that. if we all just sit here nice and comfortable . feet on nice and comfortable. feet on the floor as well supported right hand on left. you can still and just close your eyes or leave them slightly open and then begin by trying to generate a warm feeling in the centre of your body , thinking, may i be your body, thinking, may i be well and happy ? may i be well well and happy? may i be well and happy . and after we've and happy. and after we've generate that feeling in the centre of our body, we're going to radiate that out to everyone in the room . the cats, the in the room. the cats, the people , all the crew , everyone people, all the crew, everyone here, everyone . in the castle here, everyone. in the castle and out, out into the universe . and out, out into the universe. yes. so let's sit here, generate the feeling . may i be well and

the feeling. may i be well and happy. the feeling. may i be well and happy- may the feeling. may i be well and happy. may all beings be well and happy . and then come back to the room . and then come back to the room. come back to yourself and retain that feeling of warmth and kindness at the centre of your body. >> okay .

>> okay. >> okay. >> thank you , thank you. yes can >> thank you, thank you. yes can . so now i'm going to try and wrap things up by going back to professor. i mean associate professor james will tell me where christianity is now , how where christianity is now, how well christianity worldwide is in a pretty rude state of health. >> certainly in south america, it's seen enormous growth in recent decades. and in africa in particular, seen enormous by logical growth, even in china, where it's been persecuted pretty systematic for the last 50 years. china yeah. despite despite the absence of any kind of missionary activity, it does seem to be spreading very, very quickly to the alarm of the communist party. in fact, i think there are more. even the communist party in china accepts that there are more christians than members of the than there are members of the communist party. no. so that's a very interesting, interesting

phenomenon mean, phenomenon. but you're i mean, in the sort of the north western eurasia and rim of eurasia , eurasia and rim of eurasia, christianity does seem to be struggling a little bit. and religious adherents numbers are down, certainly . and secularism down, certainly. and secularism is . on the rise and down, certainly. and secularism is. on the rise and atheism seems to be on the rise. but christianity like religion, tends to bury its undertakers. uh, that is to say it, it's got an extraordinary ability, as religion has more generally to adapt. uh, it's got its very, very good at effectively very good at surviving. and even when we think of the west being dominated by the sort of great high priests of the new atheism or whatever, we're actually still thinking in a very christian way about the god that we are rejecting mental structure of our thinking, isn't it? >> yeah. >> yeah. >> that's right. >> that's right. >> brought up in the middle of it. >> exactly. it's like the old joke of, you know, one golfer asking the other, how's the water? other goldfish water? and the other goldfish saying, what's water? we're saying, what's water? uh, we're just so familiar with it just we're so familiar with it that we can't even recognise,

realise that we're being influenced. that's right. and if you think of great atheists influenced. that's right. and if yo the ink of great atheists influenced. that's right. and if yo the last>f great atheists influenced. that's right. and if yo the last 150 great atheists influenced. that's right. and if yo the last 150 years,t atheists influenced. that's right. and if yo the last 150 years, someone of the last 150 years, someone like a nietzsche or someone like, um , uh, the character and, like, um, uh, the character and, uh , ivan karamazov in uh, ivan karamazov in dostoevsky's brothers karamazov, they're driven by the kind of moral energy that sense that that that the world is structured in a, in a morally ordered way. there would have been completely unthinkable to a roman or to a greek. yeah. um, i think also of doctorate, the sort of the idea about equality, human equality, the human family, human rights, those are all humanist itself. those are bafic. all humanist itself. those are basic . those are that whole sort basic. those are that whole sort of structure is something that comes very much from judaism and from christianity. the idea that we are all, as it were, certainties , deep assumptions. certainties, deep assumptions. yeah. that's right, certainties, deep assumptions. yeah. that's right , that's right. >> i was thinking , and i only >> i was thinking, and i only really realised this relatively recently, that christianity was a kind of complete reverse of the morality of the classical era. and . that that reversal

era. and. that that reversal still with us, thank god. >> yeah . yes. it's difficult for >> yeah. yes. it's difficult for us to, as it were . imagine just us to, as it were. imagine just what a horror show in moral terms . uh, what a horror show in moral terms. uh, the what a horror show in moral terms . uh, the world of greece terms. uh, the world of greece and rome really was. it's easy to sort of glamorise it in films and so on, but it was a horrific world to be in. if you were not a effectively a male roman citizen . yeah. um, and the citizen. yeah. um, and the brutality was unlike anything that we could really contemplate i >> -- >> the morality was almost completely absent. wasn't it? any sense of sin , apathy, or any sense of sin, apathy, or kindness toward the disadvantaged? >> yes , absolutely. and there >> yes, absolutely. and there was no real sense that human beings are human beings in the sense that human beings are all part of a single family , as it part of a single family, as it were, where everyone from prince to pauper has has an equal

dignity . this is a very strange dignity. this is a very strange idea , but it takes root with idea, but it takes root with christianity and it's still with us, even as christianity enters its twilight phase in the west . its twilight phase in the west. so it's a it's a bit it's almost as if modernity has a sort of phantom limb syndrome. um, you know, it's sort of scratching its moral itch , uh, on a limb its moral itch, uh, on a limb that doesn't on a christian limb that doesn't on a christian limb that doesn't on a christian limb that doesn't really exist anymore. the reflexes. >> it's a little bit like what i felt growing up in weston super mare, there was something mare, that there was something protestant about it, but nobody was interested in religion. yes, there were nice qualities. yeah, like honesty and there was actually there was a real sympathy for people and a real simple kindness there among these people. but it was christian, but there was no . theology. >> that's right. it's a sort of christian residue. and there's sort of nothing more christian in a way, than reject eating christianity, than asserting your your individual freedom to

make up your own mind. that's a very sort of protestant impulse. but yes, i think that that that's absolutely right. and certainly the, the care and sort of attention that we have today on the marginalised and on the dispossessed , uh, on the dispossessed, uh, on the valorising of, of the victim would have been unthinkable in any moral universe before the christian revolution in the first century. >> thanks . first century. >> thanks. having listened to everyone , i find i come back to everyone, i find i come back to aldous huxley . religion can be aldous huxley. religion can be either an experience of the divine . um, alcoholics anonymous divine. um, alcoholics anonymous might say of a higher power , uh, might say of a higher power, uh, a sense that there's something bigger and more important than we are, or or it's about following rules so that you don't go to hell, wear little pink devils will poke you with red hot pitchfork for all eternity . now when the devil

eternity. now when the devil took jesus up to the mountaintop and offered him power and dominion over everything, and offered him power and dominion over everything , jesus dominion over everything, jesus said, he had more interesting things to do . actually, i don't things to do. actually, i don't think it was the devil . i think think it was the devil. i think it was jesus ego and i think the beatitudes are all about trying to reduce the power of our egos . to reduce the power of our egos. unfortunately our egos are very clever , so if we start feeling clever, so if we start feeling extra humble one morning and start thinking , oh, i'm proud of start thinking, oh, i'm proud of my humility , then the whole my humility, then the whole thing collapses again. so i believe that any religion that encourages us to look inside and to learn how to control our egos is a real religion . music.

goodbye . next time on the goodbye. next time on the dinosaur hour and then when it wasn't sugar, it became tobacco and i smoked. and then in my 20s, it became cocaine. it became that i just. and i couldn't sit still without going, ha! it's a true story. >> my first week, my wife, we were in, uh, an zona. she got stung by a scorpion , i said, but stung by a scorpion, i said, but luckily she's mexican. the scorpion means that the scorpion was throwing up for hours. scorpion means that the scorpion was throwing up for hours . a was throwing up for hours. a scorpion you interview saddam hussein? >> what's that like? >> what's that like? >> i was terrified

good evening. >> you're with gb news. the top story this hour. the home office says it does have robust plans in place for migrant flights to rwanda . following reports that rwanda. following reports that some airlines are refusing to take part in the government's illegal migration policy. it comes after the deputy prime minister said rishi sunak was right to warn that illegal migration could over whelm. european states . oliver dowden european states. oliver dowden insisted the government's rwanda plan will work and is an essential step towards getting a grip on the problem. >> we will make sure that we have the right piece of legislation . it's not about legislation. it's not about keeping one part of the party happy or another part of the happy. look, i'm i'm confident that the prime minister has looked at this very carefully and has got the best possible measures. but if there ways measures. but if there are ways of improving further, just as of improving it further, just as with piece legislation, with any piece of legislation, we will work with backbench with any piece of legislation, we will wof. with backbench with any piece of legislation, we will wof parliament,3nch members of parliament, including

conservatives . if we