doesn't even know what it is. the data that matters most to me, however , is that one out of me, however, is that one out of four brits have stopped talking to someone because they reject their point of view and one out of five have had someone do it to them . and if you want to know to them. and if you want to know who those people are, 18 to 29 year olds, half of our youngest population have cut someone off simply because they disagree. >> thanks, frankie . so tonight >> thanks, frankie. so tonight i want my dinosaurs to clarify a few things. so i've asked my friend matthew syed to give us a brief history of the word woke. matt you can you help us.7 i think the first documented use is in a song by a blues singer called leadbelly , who was called leadbelly, who was singing about the scottsboro boys, who were a group of young black americans who had gone into the south of america and been accused of rape , been accused of rape, incorrectly accused of rape, but were sentenced to death after an

all white jury found them guilty within a few seconds. >> and what leadbelly is saying to black americans is be awake, be aware of racial prejudice. if you go into the south, the jim crow south. yes. and it was really a consciousness raising turn. >> when was that? >> when was that? >> right. so this song, scottsboro boys was in 1930. thank you very much. you're welcome. uh, in 1938. and but what fascinates me, john, this time becomes very prevalent in the african american community. you know, we need to be aware of racial injustice. and moreover , racial injustice. and moreover, we need to be conscious of what we need to be conscious of what we need to do to overturn it. but then through a process of social and linguistic osmosis , social and linguistic osmosis, as it tiptoes ever more widely into the mainstream, and then you come up to today and it's now a terme of abuse that people who are woke are too sensitive to injustices in much the same

way that political correctness was kind of a positive turn at the beginning . yes, but now is the beginning. yes, but now is a time of abuse and linguists call call this process pejoration how a terme , a positive terme slowly a terme, a positive terme slowly becomes a pejorative. >> but it then got widened from racial discrimination to any form of discrimination at all, perceived or real. >> it perceived , and any form of >> it perceived, and any form of injustice . yeah. and i think injustice. yeah. and i think perhaps around 2017, 2018, it became wrapped up with this ideological move of, uh, in american universities called critical race theory , where critical race theory, where injustice almost doesn't have to be observed. but is there in the power structure in institutional racism, institutional misogyny, various other kinds of institutionalised things which are very difficult to measure empirically , but are said to be empirically, but are said to be there because of the structure of the power relations. and that's when . that's when. >> and they are there, and they're bad, but they're also perceived to be there when the justification for that

perception can be tiny . perception can be tiny. >> i have a bit of latitude to talk about these things because i'm mixed race. so i think if you're somebody from my background who has been on the receiving end of racism, it gives me latitude to kind of satirise what has become known as woke ideology. but but you white right? hetero normative are . from a colonial izing are. from a colonial izing nation. you imperialist you go into. exactly. you go into this terrain with some severe baggage on you. so i kind of i mean, it's interesting to me that when i look at the trajectory of your career, i've always seen you in your early life. you took as many great comedians do. you took aim at the power structures of religion and conservative ideology. what you characterise as closed systems of thought. but i think you're right to turn your attention to woke because it has become a closed system. for me, the fundamental achilles heel here is not to understand the global context . if you look

the global context. if you look to other parts of the world and ethnic discrimination is rife, right ? tribal conflict still right? tribal conflict still characterises much of sub—saharan africa. much of the middle east. so these are two groups that will be fighting with each other because of a different tribal identity. sometimes this has a different ethnic identity, a different linguistic identity. this has been a big problem for humanity since the agriculture revolution. you are 100% right to say liberal democracy is have done this better than any other kind of government. it has had an approach that tries to treat these characters as arbitrary, and we should judge people on the content of their character. the talents they could bring is it perfect? unquestionably not. >> it's never going to be lebanon. >> look at somalia. look at these places where they haven't >> look at somalia. look at these got ces where they haven't >> look at somalia. look at these got ass where they haven't >> look at somalia. look at these got a coherent:hey haven't >> look at somalia. look at thesegot a coherent national�*n't even got a coherent national identity, because people feel still, still feel they're a member of a tribe rather than a nafion member of a tribe rather than a nation state. i would love to see the debate just have a bit more nuance, a bit more historical geographical historical and geographical

understanding . that way, we're understanding. that way, we're more likely to reach an interesting consensus about what we do. what amazes me we wish to do. what amazes me about the woke anti—woke argument never on argument is it's never on substantive issues that we can argument is it's never on sulto antive issues that we can argument is it's never on sulto actually;ues that we can argument is it's never on sulto actually make1at we can argument is it's never on sulto actually make people'sn do to actually make people's lives better. yeah, it's a distraction from what we need to do. >> i think an awful lot of it is an unattractive side of humanity, which is to sort of want to be right, you humanity, which is to sort of want to be right , you know, even want to be right, you know, even if they don't know why they want to be right, they want to be right. so you get as i said, you get, um , you know, i've suffered get, um, you know, i've suffered this appalling oppression , um, this appalling oppression, um, microaggression because they've always in america mispronounced my name. well, at least cleese. whoever ate cheddar cheese, you know , so i. but i've survived know, so i. but i've survived and, you know, and i've got to set up an institute where i can teach people to spot micro aggressions, which otherwise they might never notice at all. thank you. >> thank you . helen i'm so, so

>> thank you. helen i'm so, so happy to have you on this show. >> and the reason i'm happy is that i can't get the woke people to come on and discuss it with me. they. we've asked over a dozen of them and they basically refuse. so the way i wanted you to help me, helen, is that since they won't come to on answer the questions, i'd like to ask if i ask you those questions , will ask you those questions, will you give me the answers that they would normally give? because you studied that and you know how they think , and why know how they think, and why won't they ? they discuss this won't they? they discuss this with me. >> so you are coming here from , >> so you are coming here from, um, a marketplace of ideas approach. the concept of debate of bringing ideas together , um,

of bringing ideas together, um, comparing them, seeing which stand up best to critique, qualifying them and having them critique each other is understood largely as a western white masculinist tradition . white masculinist tradition. >> so this is liberalism , would >> so this is liberalism, would you say? >> yes, yes, liberalism is very explicitly critiqued in what i would call critical social justice. and most people call wokeness. liberalism is the big enemy. and this , this idea that enemy. and this, this idea that if we get people together, um, we can we are then rational agents who can evaluate ideas , agents who can evaluate ideas, compare them, and replace , um, compare them, and replace, um, badideas compare them, and replace, um, bad ideas with better ones. or as john stuart mill would say, exchange error for truth. this is to the social justice activists, a western philosophy . activists, a western philosophy. it does not allow for the lived experience and the different knowledges of marginalised people . people. >> as i am a straight white male and an imperialist, apparently,

yes, apparently . is that why yes, apparently. is that why they won't speak to me? >> um, it certainly is a big strike against you. yes. um but even more than that , what have even more than that, what have you taken effort to educate yourself , do the work? um yourself, do the work? um uncover your own biases , uncover your own biases, dismantle your whiteness , um, dismantle your whiteness, um, detoxify your masculinity and decolonise your concepts of knowledge . because if you have knowledge. because if you have not done any of this , then you not done any of this, then you are not, um, woke . you are not are not, um, woke. you are not awake to the systems of power and privilege. you are still asleep. and so there is no no point in in speaking to you. okay >> but the whole thing sounds to me really quite authoritarian , me really quite authoritarian, slightly like the medieval church . i mean, they're very church. i mean, they're very much saying what you can, not just what you can say , but also just what you can say, but also really what you can think . really what you can think. >> it certainly is an

authoritarian , um, system. but authoritarian, um, system. but if you truly believe that these systems of oppressive power absolutely exist and permeate everything that they are, perpetuate through language, they are doing harm to marginalised people every minute of every day , then the idea to of every day, then the idea to control what people can say and what they can think and also to subject them to unconscious bias training to retrain their minds is um, does seem like an effective way to achieve social justice. liberals like like me and like you presumably will argue with this and say, no, um, we need to argue about these bad ideas. we need to defeat these badideas ideas. we need to defeat these bad ideas by showing why they are bad. this doesn't work to the critical social justice people . people. >> yeah, well, one of the women who would not come on the show said that the very fact that we're having a discussion is the problem. yeah, i mean, yeah ,

problem. yeah, i mean, yeah, this this is particularly strong in the postcolonial decolonial , in the postcolonial decolonial, um, movement . um, movement. >> and this you want to have a debate. i don't know if you've seen the slogans. um my existence is not up for debate . existence is not up for debate. that that comes from the trans rights movement . if you want to rights movement. if you want to debate , to disagree with them debate, to disagree with them means that you're trying to decide for them completely. >> that's what it comes down to. >> that's what it comes down to. >> yes. i mean, we saw linda sarsour , um, also said, uh, sarsour, um, also said, uh, critical, um, of islam, for example, is a denial of her right to exist . now, obviously, right to exist. now, obviously, if islam didn't exist , linda if islam didn't exist, linda still would . um, but the idea is still would. um, but the idea is that by criticising any identity or any belief system , that you or any belief system, that you are not allowing people to exist as they as they are, but they just, um , speak of existing and just, um, speak of existing and even of genocide. i think an

awful lot of people have no idea that that's what some aspects of woke are about, because that that's what some aspects of woke are about , because they woke are about, because they just say, well, we're being woke is kind of people. >> and , you know, that's great. >> and, you know, that's great. >> and, you know, that's great. >> this, this idea that, um , >> this, this idea that, um, wokeness is about being nice. it is about just being aware of racism, sexism and homophobia and being opposed to it. >> well, that's all totally sensible . well, yes, but of sensible. well, yes, but of course , this is wokeness is not course, this is wokeness is not the only framework from which this, this can be done. >> liberals also have been opposing racism for a very long time . marxists, um, oppose it on time. marxists, um, oppose it on the grounds that it divides the working class. um, conservatives generally oppose this as well . generally oppose this as well. religious believers that think that we, we are all the children of god . this is what i have of god. this is what i have argued any kind of policy needs to allow for people to come from different frameworks , works in different frameworks, works in opposing , different frameworks, works in opposing, um, racism, different frameworks, works in opposing , um, racism, sexism, opposing, um, racism, sexism, homophobia or other bigotries. but the critical social justice

movement does not accept that that other frameworks do this . that other frameworks do this. >> you we mentioned, uh, cancel culture earlier. um, do you want to add anything to that cancel culture is something that i've been dealing for with quite a while. >> um, because because a lot of time people think of cancel culture as something that affects celebrities who are being hounded and perhaps not allowed to speak in one particular arena . and they say, particular arena. and they say, but you're still speaking. you haven't been cancelled at all. but if you look at who is actually being cancelled and the organisation that i have worked with looks at blue and white collar workers who are being asked to undergo various kinds of training, our objecting to this training and are being fired , suffering disciplinary fired, suffering disciplinary action. trade unions are very, very wary of even addressing the issue. so so cancel culture as

affects those who do not have voice. >> that's very interesting . so >> that's very interesting. so it's the it's the smaller people who suffer the worst because they lose their jobs, whereas people like you and me and j.k. rowling and so forth can speak out because they can't actually, uh, get as fired this is why i would argue from an admittedly biased left wing point of view, that this cannot realistically be seen as a left wing movement when it arranges things so that only the independently wealthy can actually speak . that's funny. >> and when it supports corporations in, um, putting in afflicting these kind of policies on workers, and then it stands with corporations against workers . yes. this is very much workers. yes. this is very much against the, the whole ethos of the left in the us. it's an $8 billion a year industry. what is

um, this these kinds of trainings for employees. >> i'm fascinated by the way that corporations have . no, that corporations have. no, they're just frightened of an economic boycott. right. >> i am not sure how much a boycott would would actually work. i mean, if we look at j.k rowling, her books are not failing. um to sell. are they even though there is such strong opinion , such a small percentage opinion, such a small percentage of people actually adhere to these these critical social justice ideas that i don't think a boycott can really work well. >> i'm hoping it doesn't, because i'm thinking of the adaptation i'm doing of life of bnan. brian. >> uh , are you going to be >> uh, are you going to be problematic again? are i love that word

and isabel monday to thursdays on gb news britain's news

channel. peter. boghosian philosopher , author that's me philosopher, author that's me acrobat . acrobat. >> no no no. oh no oh i was misled. >> no . all right peter, you >> no. all right peter, you studied this i how did we get here? it's a very powerful movement . nobody sort of here? it's a very powerful movement. nobody sort of signed up for it. and we are learning every day about it. um, include asian and diversity and anti racism and all that. and it's kind of arrived without anyone quite knowing where it came from. it reminds me a bit of that thing in holy grail. and arthur says , um, i'm the king. arthur says, um, i'm the king. and they say, well, we didn't

vote for you. we, we didn't vote for this, did we? no it did not come as a result of a democratic process . pi'ocess. >> process. >> ah, it blitzed greek society in the last ten years. and so the words that you mentioned are one of the reasons that it spread throughout the society . spread throughout the society. inclusion, equity, diverse anti anti—racism people thought they were signing up for something different . they're getting different. they're getting something that they did not sign up for. they've been hoodwinked and they've been bamboozled by. these words are you say woke and it means kind . it means kind. >> and you finish up with authoritarian ism. correct. it's similar in that the words have two meanings. >> the meanings that people sign up for and then the secondary meaning . so. so for example , meaning. so. so for example, inclusion when normal people who are not steeped in this, they

hear the word inclusion , they hear the word inclusion, they think, oh well, inclusion . that think, oh well, inclusion. that sounds like a great thing. we want to include people in wheelchairs. we want to include people of all skin colours. we want to include people of all heights, of different ethnicities. everybody agrees to that. we, every sane person will sign up for that. but what inclusion actually means. so think about it like this. if we want to have an inclusive conversation, let's say we wanted to bring folks into our conversation and we wanted to include them well, to make sure that they felt included . they that they felt included. they have to feel welcome. so to make sure that they feel welcome , we sure that they feel welcome, we have to make sure that they don't feel offended. oh an inclusive space means a space where you restrict speech, a conversation in which speech is restricted , but people think restricted, but people think they're getting a conversation in which all people can sit at the table and have a conversation , a discourse as

conversation, a discourse as equals . conversation, a discourse as equals. that's that's just conversation, a discourse as equals . that's that's just not equals. that's that's just not what it means. equals. that's that's just not what it means . so, for example, what it means. so, for example, when you see the word equity , when you see the word equity, most people confuse . and it's most people confuse. and it's a very simple confusion. >> they know what it means to me. it means fairness. yeah that's the exact opposite of what it means. >> oh , so equity used to be >> oh, so equity used to be a finance firm. you know, you had so much equity in your home. and that's how most people understood the terms until very, very recently. so equity and equality are not the same things. in fact they're exact exactly the opposite . exactly the opposite. >> they're the opposite. >> they're the opposite. >> yeah okay. >> yeah okay. >> go on. »- >> go on. >> okay. so equality means treating citizens son and citizen two equal i.e. they get treated equally. that's that's what equality means. equity means the redistribution of shares , redistributing something shares, redistributing something in society to have an equal outcome . for example , if you outcome. for example, if you have so many members of a

minority community in a society, you would want either a proportional representation right ? so let's say that you right? so let's say that you have 13% of your populace in is african american . you would african american. you would either want a proportional representation , which is a kind representation, which is a kind of equity, but what you would really want is to look at the historical characteristics of the people . so if someone's the people. so if someone's ancestors , for example, were ancestors, for example, were enslaved , you would want those enslaved, you would want those individuals to be disproportionately represented in disproportionate , in disproportionate, disproportionate, higher, 13% but higher correct . but higher correct. >> so that's a kind of reparation . reparation. >> it's a kind of reparation. but it's an equitable system. so you could think about it like this . ibram x you could think about it like this. ibram x kendi, the more multiple mass best selling author succinctly captures eqtu author succinctly captures equity as the only remedy to

pass discrimination is present discrimination . the only remedy discrimination. the only remedy to the injustices , the clear and to the injustices, the clear and obvious injustices and people were treated horrifically on the on the basis of skin colour. and nobody is denying that the only remedy to that is present discrimination and future discrimination and future discrimination . but that itself discrimination. but that itself is not fair. no right. but that's equity and so that's in other words. so that's how people have been bamboozled. they've been hoodwinked by inclusion. they've been hoodwinked by equity. they've been hoodwinked by diversity, by anti—racism. they've been hoodwinked by all these. >> give me an example from diversity, for example , in this diversity, for example, in this conversation we want diversity . conversation we want diversity. >> so ideally what you would want you want want is you would want a conversation which all voices conversation in which all voices could heard in which people could be heard in which people who have different interests, different class interests, different class interests, different interests different whatever interests would come and they'd be able to freely participate in an

exchange of ideas. >> incidentally, i wrote a little book creativity, and little book on creativity, and i made that that the most made that point that the most creative groups are the ones that are most, most diverse. >> yeah . and my guess is >> yeah. and my guess is i haven't read your book. i apologise, but my guess. is that what you mean by that is also intellect diversity. >> well that's right. yes you want diversity of ideas . want diversity of ideas. correct. you don't want a lot of culture clash, which is why the guy in charge of the meeting is so important. but if you get diversity of ideas , then you get diversity of ideas, then you get the most creative groups , right? the most creative groups, right? >> so just beat me to it. >> so you just beat me to it. come on. so diversity means intellectual homogeneity. it means that people forward, they have the same ideas and they forward the same ideas and the ideas that that that people forward are , are basically one forward are, are basically one kind of a narrative based in the ideology . so diversity doesn't ideology. so diversity doesn't mean people of different skin colours, if anything , it means colours, if anything, it means people of people whose ancestors were marginalised and who have

the same opinion. that's why, for example, black conservatives , if you put black conservatives on a panel , that's not on a panel, that's not diversity. you have to have the same opinion . same opinion. >> are diverse city inclusion, eqtu. equity. >> these words are simply not what people think. and again , on what people think. and again, on the an anti—racism anti—racism is another one. the idea is that racism is ever present in a system . so you can have a system system. so you can have a system in which there are no conspicuous racist, actual racists, but the system itself is racist . it's not. if racism is racist. it's not. if racism occurs , racism is the default, occurs, racism is the default, but but it's how it occurs . and but but it's how it occurs. and you just spoke with helen, who has a lovely example of this , in has a lovely example of this, in that a store owner of a small store is standing around and at the same time two customers come

through the door, a black customer and a white customer . customer and a white customer. well, who does the store owner help first? if she helps the white customer, she only helped him first because he's white. but if she helps the black customer, she did that because he's afraid that the customer is going to shoplift , right? so no going to shoplift, right? so no matter. so the default condition is that the system itself , that is that the system itself, that that racism is always operative and you need to be trained to uncover it. >> so it's like , um, oh, >> so it's like, um, oh, charlie, you got a fur ball . oh, charlie, you got a fur ball. oh, poor old charlie. maybe he's having problems digesting some of the work i did. >> charlie's had enough wokeism. yeah . yeah. >> gillian. philip >> gillian. philip >> john cleese. hello. nice to have you here. >> thank you so much for coming, danny. >> thank you for having me. >> thank you for having me. >> now, listen, you used to be, uh , pretty successful children .

uh, pretty successful children. author and now you're not. now i'm not? >> no. i'd worked for, um, a company called working partners, which is a book packager. and i worked for them since about 2011. uh wrote quite a number of books for them in an animal fantasy series . so all went fantasy series. so all went swimmingly. then about in 2017, i started tweeting , um, about i started tweeting, um, about the gender ideology issue. uh huh. um, and then jk rowling had that horrible campaign of abuse against her. you maybe read at the time it was just it was shocking the amount of hate. i know she got for stating something that everybody believed till five minutes ago, which is that you can't change your sex, you know, dress how your sex, you know, dress how you like because she said, you know, sleep with whoever, whoever will have you, whoever however to. know , however you want to. you know, um, you can't, you know, um, but you can't, you know, don't bully people out of their

jobs for saying that. you can't change your biological sex. and she got so much hate for this. and i kind of felt i, i want to say something, you know, i, i kind of was aware that it was a really difficult, very touchy issue. so i added the hashtag . i issue. so i added the hashtag. i stand with jk rowling to my twitter handle , and i know , uh, twitter handle, and i know, uh, so that was, that was kind of blood in the water and everything was kind of quiet for a couple of weeks. oh um, and then they kind of the sharks found me , you know, death found me, you know, death threats, uh, threats of sexual violence, that sort of thing. so so i kind of ignored the first few comments. um, blocked it, but it kept coming and it was kind of like, uh , a snowball kind of like, uh, a snowball rolling downhill. uh, it got worse for 24 hours. um so it started morning of the 26th. by morning of the 27th, my publisher was, which is this this is 20, 20, 2020, just not long after lockdown, say about then 27th, i got i got to sleep

at five in the morning . uh, was at five in the morning. uh, was called by my agent about nine. um and the book packagers were on the phone. working partners were on the phone. um, we'll have to talk to harpercollins, see if it's you know, if you can still work for us and 2 pm, which was like nine new york time. yeah. uh harpercollins said, uh, right. she's out surfing. so. yeah. sorry harpercollins. say you're out and you're fired. so that was it. and that was the end of my career as a children's author. i don't blame anyone else at for all not speaking up about this, however they feel, because, yeah , they know they're going to lose their jobs. , they know they're going to lose their jobs . but the kind of lose their jobs. but the kind of big corporate oceans big ups at the corporate oceans and the companies, um, if they would to stand up it and say, no, we're not going to base our company's policy and hiring on, like the opinions of some anonymous trolls on twitter , you anonymous trolls on twitter, you know, but, well, they extraordinary thing is, there's several things here i'm fascinated by. >> it was why don't they if you put something out on twitter,

why don't they identify. hello >> hello. oh, you very disgusting. aren't you ? oh, disgusting. aren't you? oh, don't listen to her. oh. you're lovely. where are you going? >> but if you put something out on twitter , why don't they make on twitter, why don't they make people , uh, admit they're people, uh, admit they're identity? why don't they say who's the author of this tweet? because it's the anonymity that allows these nobodies . yeah. to allows these nobodies. yeah. to have a feeling of power. >> yeah. that is true. but then again, anonymity also protects people like friends of mine and writers who who agree with me. but and they can have anonymous accounts and say it but and i don't blame them. as i said, they cannot tweet their opinions under their own name because their careers would be overdue. what do you do for money now? >> i, i, i learned how to drive hdtvs. >> i became a truck driver. oh complete change of career. >> what? unexplored anything.

>> what? unexplored anything. >> see, my truckers tan and dark? >> no. how did that happen? i suddenly thought they looked very nice as hdtvs . very nice as hdtvs. >> well, i well, i didn't want to be in an indoorjob. >> i realised i wanted to be out of doors because i say it was. it was the first year of lockdown and i was lucky in lockdown. and i have a garden and i'd spent a lot of my time outdoors it really outdoors and it it really helped. really my helped. it really helped my mental health. after the cancellation happened, and just being outdoors and working really hard, the authors, the society of authors write, who represent authors well , were represent authors well, were they any good? >> did they help? it? would be so much better for authors if the society of authors was willing to protect their freedom of speech, but the i actually tweeted the society of authors about this , and they denied that about this, and they denied that freedom of speech was one of their pro authorities, or even interest . a society of authors interest. a society of authors said, yeah , yeah, it's that's

said, yeah, yeah, it's that's not one of our things that we do some authors i know who are extremely brave actually try to bnng extremely brave actually try to bring a freedom of speech motion to their agm last year , um, they to their agm last year, um, they were called bigots and fascists on social media just for bringing a free speech motion before the agm and the society of authors , um, ended up voting of authors, um, ended up voting against free speech . by . by 593 against free speech. by. by 593 to 161. well, thank you for depressing me . depressing me. >> yes, well, i'll just go away and kill myself, if you don't mind.

>> merry christmas . greg i'm so >> merry christmas. greg i'm so grateful that you came greg

lukianoff um has co—written the best book on this subject that i've read. >> you co—wrote it with jonathan haidt, one author. it's called the coddling of the american mind , and it's the most mind, and it's the most interesting thing i've read on all this stuff . but what i'm all this stuff. but what i'm fascinated by is that it all started with you having a severe depression . ian. depression. ian. >> yes. >> yes. >> so tell the tale. >> so tell the tale. >> well, in two thousand and seven, i got so depressed i had to be hospitalised as a danger to be hospitalised as a danger to myself . to myself. >> and in the process of recovering the next year , i recovering the next year, i studied cognitive behavioural therapy and cognitive behavioural therapy is something that teaches you to talk back to your your own exaggerated thoughts to when you're when you hear the voices in your head, you argue with them exactly. when you're catastrophizing, you call it out. >> so catastrophizing means what? >> that you're just thinking everything is going to be a catastrophe . catastrophe. >> oh, that sounds very much

like it sounds when people are anxious and depressed , they have anxious and depressed, they have all of these cognitive distortions , you know, at volume distortions, you know, at volume 11 going on in their head. >> and that just getting in the habit of talking back to them can relieve many of the symptoms of anxiety and depression. >> so when you discovered that what happened then. >> well, you know , it changed my >> well, you know, it changed my life. but i started seeing all over the place ways in which we were teaching young people the habhs were teaching young people the habits of anxious and depressed people. it was as if both in k through 12, um, in grade school and in higher education, it was like the adults were saying , by like the adults were saying, by the way, do catastrophize . oh go the way, do catastrophize. oh go on, do engage in emotional reasoning, do engage in binary thinking, which i know you think a lot about as well. >> so you linked up with don, uh, linked up with john hite . uh, linked up with john hite. >> i told him what i thought was because i'm a constitutional lawyer. my major focus. are you? yeah i know, i thought i liked

you . uh, so . yeah i know, i thought i liked you. uh, so . and i was yeah i know, i thought i liked you . uh, so . and i was defending you. uh, so. and i was defending freedom of speech on college campuses and academic freedom . campuses and academic freedom. and i noticed around 2013 that students were really clamping down both on freedom of speech. but they were also rationalising it in this kind of medicalized way . that was all way. that was all catastrophizing , all binary catastrophizing, all binary thinking, all of these cognitive distortions. so we wrote an article together in 2015 saying that the things that are threatening free speech on campus are also the kind of mental habits that will make young people anxious and depressed. essentially it's teaching people that , uh, that teaching people that, uh, that essentially they should avoid challenges, they should avoid things that cause them any pain. but of course , things that cause but of course, things that cause you pain are also what cause you growth . yeah. and so the growth. yeah. and so the emphasis on having your children not experience either physical or emotional pain or challenges is actually a profound , is actually a profound, unhealthy way to teach kids to

think about the world and to let them be kids and grow up. it's tempting, as a parent because i have a five and a seven year old. i understand it. you want to protect your kids from emotional difficulty, but if you don't prepare them for a world that's difficult and you don't prepare them for the challenges , prepare them for the challenges, you're them to be you're not preparing them to be adults and worse, you're adults and even worse, you're creating a situation where they're of course, going creating a situation where th

evil, and you want to be on the side of pure good always at war with the other, so that if you're agree with a lot of the transgender , uh, agenda, but transgender, uh, agenda, but disagree with some of it, then you are a very bad person and you are a very bad person and you , you're absolutely wrong. you, you're absolutely wrong. yeah and this is part of the way that unfortunately, in the places where we should be learning to argue like adults , learning to argue like adults, we're teaching this very childish way of arguing. it creates this situation where you can just dismiss any person, any book, any thinker , any book, any thinker, any institution you disagree with. because since you can find everything is evil, anytime you don't want to listen to somebody, you just declare them evil and you don't have to bother with them. you don't have to challenge your thinking at all. >> now i want to ask you a little more about cancel little bit more about cancel culture because every time get culture because every time i get on the second culture because every time i get on is the second culture because every time i get on is something nd culture because every time i get on is something to do with question is something to do with cancel and all my cancel culture. and all my friends saying, are you friends are saying, why are you always talking about cancel culture? is , culture? and the answer is, we're yeah we're obsessed with it. yeah tell me what you're thinking

about it. >> so i have book coming out >> so i have a book coming out called cancelling the called cancelling of the american called cancelling of the am cancelling. yes, yes . >> cancelling. yes, yes. >> cancelling. yes, yes. >> and making the point >> and it's making the point that not is cancel culture that not only is cancel culture real, but it's so bad we're going to be studying it in 100 years. um, one thing that we've collected is the number of professors who have been punished or fired, and in the united states, you have to go back to the 1950s, to mccarthyism to see numbers that are anywhere near as close to the number of professors mccarthyism in terms of numbers, absolutely . it the estimates absolutely. it the estimates about about 100 to 150 professors were fired . um, from professors were fired. um, from 1947 to 1957. and right now, we're well, we're approaching 200 professors getting fired. and. >> well, how does it happen? the students used to be the administrators were the ones getting professors in trouble. >> and then it increasingly became the students and the fellow professors who were reporting them. so mccarthyism, it generally people outside it was generally people outside of education who were of higher education who were reporting professors, but now

it's coming from within. and it's coming from within. and it's devastating for the production of knowledge. because if people think that if people aren't stupid , if they look at aren't stupid, if they look at it, an expert and they come up with an opinion and they say to themselves, wait a second, if you can be cancelled for having the wrong opinion, why should i trust you to be objective about this anyway? >> should anything to do >> you should anything to do with the fact that the fees at universities now are so high, and that the students are also kind of customers as well as students . students. >> that is part of the problem and want lose and they don't want to lose their customers. >> right? their customers. >> rigirelated to the fees. >> it's related to the fees. both because it creates a customer is always right situation, also because situation, but also because those fees, at least in the states, increasingly we pay for armies armies , ever growing armies and armies, ever growing numbers bureaucrats and numbers of bureaucrats and administrators who enforce really rigid ideas , logical really rigid ideas, logical norms. they police freedom of speech and it creates an environment that is very chilled because the only real aim they have in life is not to get fired. careerism definitely

plays a part, but there's also people who think that the key to saving the world is less and less freedom of speech. yes, you would think we would have learned a bit from galileo . learned a bit from galileo. about . well, i feel , um, better about. well, i feel, um, better informed , but also completely informed, but also completely confused . confused. >> and so i've asked helen and peter to have a final chat on the subject of what do we do? helen >> okay, if we are going to address the problem of wokeism, as we've discussed , the main as we've discussed, the main problem with it is authoritarianism in a liberal society. we don't want to ban any of these ideas, but we also don't want to have them institutionalised , and we don't institutionalised, and we don't want them imposed upon other people. so i have argued that we expand the concept of secularism as we would say now, just as we wouldn't have someone have to

affirm the apostles creed in order to get a job, we shouldn't have them having to write a diversity , equity and inclusion diversity, equity and inclusion statement, which mirrors critical social justice. that should be something which is just off, off the table as it would be with religious ian peter , i, i agree, i have three. peter, i, i agree, i have three. >> you don't have to know. >> you don't have to know. >> i do, but i have a couple of nitpicks. but i have three things that i think may help people trying to navigate this and figure it out. i think the first order of business is, is what we spoke about is they have to figure out what people mean by words. so if they're getting emails all the time from their daughter or son's schools talking about equity based learning, they need to know what that means or the words we talked about . yeah, this is an talked about. yeah, this is an anti—racist curriculum , so they anti—racist curriculum, so they need to have a basic rudimentary understanding of the meaning of words. this is not an academic

thing. this is so that they can participate and understand what people are talking about . but people are talking about. but the second thing is they need to show up. they need to physically show up. they need to physically show up. they need to physically show up to meetings , often in show up to meetings, often in school board meetings or any kind of municipality county meetings. the people who show up are the woke people, and they're the most vocal people. and so i know it's a hard work. i know people would rather stay at home in their pyjamas, but they have to up . the third thing, the to show up. the third thing, the simplest thing anybody can ever do don't give money to your alma mater. your alma mater, the college from which you graduate is simply not the same place today. and so you're giving money to support an ideology. we know where the ideology comes from . it's the university from. it's the university system. we know that they're teaching students things that are untethered to reality . stop are untethered to reality. stop giving money to your alma mater. i don't think that our institute oceans are largely salvageable

at this point. i think that , but at this point. i think that, but if someone would like to salvage them, media institutions, academic institutions, etc, that's fine . i think that the that's fine. i think that the what we should be focusing on is build new things. >> i think in, in practice that would take a very long time. if we look at the length of time it's taken to develop universities in this country , universities in this country, that was i think that from the 12th century, i don't think we're going to quickly produce something as good in principle as the current university system, where people can come together, where there are resources of all kinds, but we don't want to have a revolution, burn everything down. i don't want to. i think things are more redeemable than perhaps you do . redeemable than perhaps you do. >> i, i hope you're right. >> i, i hope you're right. >> my concern is that we have people who have jobs for life with tenure. >> my concern is that that the reason the ideology spread is

because they've taught students who have then gone into the workforce, gone into the administration, etc. uh, if somebody wants to spend their time like that, that's that's fine. that's not how i choose to spend my time. i'm going to build new things. um, it is odd when you think about it, that there is an ideology which has become a dominant value, that nobody is allowed to question. >> we didn't vote it in right? >> we didn't vote it in right? >> right. i mean, when you think about it, it's like, really no one's allowed to question this . one's allowed to question this. you can't even ask just asking the question, does it does it make you? make sense to you? >> i think it. >> yeah, i think that's it. >> yeah, i think that's it. >> doesn't make sense to >> not it doesn't make sense to me, make sense to me, but does it make sense to you that that we have all of these things that literally nobody believed ten years ago? >> men can get pregnant, like just a suite of propositions that nobody believed. and now you have to believe them. and if you have to believe them. and if you ask why you're not merely mistaken, you're a bad person. that i still think.

>> peter, that's a red flag. rather than confront these people, because most of us don't really enjoy confrontation, some do, but they have a big advantage because most of us don't . and if you want to avoid don't. and if you want to avoid confronting action, then i think the way to , to put off stuff the way to, to put off stuff across is to ask questions. because if you ask a question and they say, well , you're not and they say, well, you're not allowed to ask the question and you apologise and leave, but you know, if you ask questions, it's less confrontational, but you're also querying what they're telling you. >> i don't know if you've heard, um, uh , the just just asking um, uh, the just just asking questions by jack. now you will be accused of off of what if off if you ask questions. i'm just asking questions. this is seen asking questions. this is seen as a cynical move by a lot of activists now. and, um , you will activists now. and, um, you will just get dismissed , um, for, just get dismissed, um, for, for, for liv golf, which is not not a phrase i really want to

say three times. >> what was this on the bbc? i'm afraid that's all we have time for . i'm now afraid that's all we have time for. i'm now going to make a pompous little speech because it's my show . so there . you see, it's my show. so there. you see, i believe in liberal democracy now! i know a lot of people say that liberalism has failed and i say no , liberalism hasn't failed say no, liberalism hasn't failed . human nature has failed . there . human nature has failed. there is no plan, no constitution, no set of rules that we human beings can't set up . as winston beings can't set up. as winston churchill said , that democracy churchill said, that democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others . now except for all the others. now the essence of a liberal democracy is that people with different points of view discuss things, and then we hope in an ideal world, some kind census emerges that can be acted on. but the woke say no. we are not

prepared to discuss our ideas because we are right . and if we because we are right. and if we start discussing them, people might suspect they're . it is might suspect they're. it is another point of view . i don't another point of view. i don't think that's a very constructive attitude . it works. i mean , at attitude. it works. i mean, at least it worked for pol pot . least it worked for pol pot. it's called authority terrorism. now the woke aren't throwing people into prisons , but they people into prisons, but they are having them thrown out of their jobs. are having them thrown out of theirjobs. it's are having them thrown out of their jobs. it's the are having them thrown out of theirjobs. it's the same authoritarian impulse . oh, sorry authoritarian impulse. oh, sorry for getting serious music .

mo mowlam . next time on the dinosaur hour , next time on the dinosaur hour, you know we killed a man . next time on the dinosaur hour, you know we killed a man. did i tell you that? no. kevin klein

and i killed a man in denmark. >> bellissima. marble sima. bellissima or bellissima palace ? bellissima or bellissima palace? marble palace . i think you can marble palace. i think you can get more uptight . marble palace. i think you can get more uptight. i think you should be offended by that. because i am. you're not. i'm offended that you're offended. i'm offended that you're not offended . i'm offended that offended. that i'm offended that you're offended

>> you're with gb news. good evening , i'm >> you're with gb news. good evening, i'm sam >> you're with gb news. good evening , i'm sam francis. the evening, i'm sam francis. the headunes evening, i'm sam francis. the headlines at 11 millions of trained passengers are set to pay trained passengers are set to pay more for their tickets from next year, with a hike in fares of nearly 5. the department of transport has confirmed that regulated rail fares in england will rise from the 3rd of march, though train companies can still set their own ticket prices on unregulated . the increase unregulated fares. the increase is based on inflation, but it's being capped by the government

at 4.9. well that news comes as rail passengers are facing more travel disruption as they try to get away for christmas . there get away for christmas. there are long queues for cross—channel journeys and train cancellations across the country. in the capital, paddington station is closing for four days on christmas eve and heathrow's also set to be exceptionally busy. the airport is expecting more than a quarter of a million passengers over the christmas break. a criminal investigation has been launched into the alleged abduction of alex batty, the teenager , who'd alex batty, the teenager, who'd been missing for six years, returned to the uk last week after being found in france. he disappeared when he was just 11 years old. his mother, who wasn't his legal guardian , had wasn't his legal guardian, had taken him on a pre—arranged trip to spain. greater manchester police are investigating the case after they interviewed the 17 year old, a british student who built a drone for the so—called islamic state terror group has been jailed for life with a minimum terms of 20 years, 27 year old mohammed

albert used a 3d printer at his home in coventry to make the device , designed to carry a bomb device, designed to carry a bomb or chemical weapon. on sentencing , the judge described sentencing, the judge described him as a manipulator of individual and a committed extremist. he built the drone to cause horror and destruction . in cause horror and destruction. in police in prague have confirmed that the gunman, who killed 14 people at charles university, killed himself after being surrounded on a roof. earlier, authorities released this body cam footage . cam footage. well, that footage shows officers at the scene as the gunman opened fire in corridors and classrooms . 12 corridors and classrooms. 12 people are still in a serious condition. we understand , and at condition. we understand, and at least one is critical. police who are still trying to establish a motive say the shooter may have also killed a man and his young daughter in a forest near the capital last

week . here in forest near the capital last week. here in the