and -- and. >> during the course of this series, i've been able to bring in some of my smartest and most amusing friends to contribute . amusing friends to contribute. >> but i have other friends who aren't particularly interesting or attractive, and they keep pestering me to be on the show. so i'm going to devote an entire program to these hangers on just to get them off my back . thank to get them off my back. thank you . a few weeks ago, i was to you. a few weeks ago, i was to talking an audience and, uh, when we got to the q&a , the when we got to the q&a, the first question guy in the front row said, uh, you know, i said yes. he said, do you think matthew side should be our next prime minister i said, yes. prime minister and i said, yes. so thanks for being here. it's a pleasure . pleasure. >> this person, did he bear a

passing resemblance to me.7 was it my brother? no, passing resemblance to me? was it my brother? no, no , it was it my brother? no, no, it was the nice thing. >> was there was a kind of general hmm'hmm from these 400 people. so i don't know where to start with you. do we start with ping start with you. do we start with ping pong or sunday times? i get very offended when they call it here. >> it makes it sound like a jumped up parlour game, roughly equivalent to tiddlywinks. whereas we know and hope whereas we know and i hope people room know, it's a people in this room know, it's a globally sport. globally competitive sport. >> why >> tell our dear friends why we're talking about table tennis. so i this is a slightly odd thing to admit, but i was the british table tennis number one for ten years. ten years and three times commonwealth champion. >> the weird thing though, i'm 52 and at the time , at the time 52 and at the time, at the time i was playing table tennis , this i was playing table tennis, this was like the dominant thing in my life. i'd wake up thinking about table tennis. i'd practice before school after school, holidays, weekends, getting to the top of table tennis was my raise on debt, and my . parents raise on debt, and my. parents were behind it because i was

passionate about it. i had a wonderful coach. i grew up in suburban reading and it turns out i should i should mention this, that i grew up in suburban reading more than half the top road had more than half the top table tennis players in the country . what? country. what? >> more than half the top >> what more than half the top in the country. and there were 50,000 paid subscribers to the governing body, about a million recreational players. >> so it was unbelievable >> so it was an unbelievable concentration . of fantastic ping concentration. of fantastic ping pong with whoppers right in this totally ordinary . totally ordinary. >> all right. so what's that about? >> so this the explanation, it formed the start of my first ever book bounce . i was trying ever book bounce. i was trying to deconstruct what it is that enables people to get good at what they wish to get good at. and obviously, talent plays a factor. but opportunity . see, factor. but opportunity. see, the school aldrington school. there was a primary school teacher who was a ping pong fanatic and the best coach in the country , and just by the country, and just by silverdale road there was a club. now in most parts of the

country you want to play table tennis, you have to go to the municipal sports centre. yeah but you can't go to take. you're waiting the yoga to finish waiting for the yoga to finish or but here there was or the bed, but here there was a purpose built 24 hour clock. it was only one table it was was only one table and it was a wooden really. but we wooden shack, really. but we were had were all on the street, had a set of so we could go any set of keys. so we could go any time we could go. and we're clocking up and we're practising and we're loving and we're playing. we're loving it. this coach is coming in it. and this coach is coming in and giving us the perfect technique. and so a totally ordinary group of , of young kids. >> so wait a minute, what age are you. >> so i started playing at nine nine and i became the top player in my age group at about 11. and then it dominated my life through till the age of 33. yeah. and it's only then, as i'm slowing down that i realise my father was telling the truth when i said want to leave when i said i want to leave school after my o—levels, he said, yeah, but can't play said, yeah, but you can't play table tennis. you're going be said, yeah, but you can't play téretiredlnis. you're going be said, yeah, but you can't play téretired for. you're going be said, yeah, but you can't play té retired for a’ou're going be said, yeah, but you can't play téretired for a long going be said, yeah, but you can't play téretired for a long time.] be said, yeah, but you can't play té retired for a long time. and)e a retired for a long time. and then thinking, i have then i'm thinking, right, i have to go into to reinvent. and then i go into into having got to the into writing. having got to the

end of the career of table tennis and thinking what a what a brilliant career i've had, i look back on now. now look back on it now. now i think, on earth was doing think, what on earth was i doing ? what was doing? you know, ? what was i doing? you know, you've this white you've got this, this tiny white ball the last ball and i, you know, the last five i'm trying trying to five years i'm trying trying to improve my technique. and i moved like 23 in the world moved from like 23 in the world to 22. well, what was the point? who cares? you know , what was who cares? you know, what was i thinking of? there were so many other things to do. >> i find sometimes i just think the obsession that the extraordinary obsession that . you seem to need to become absolutely top class. it's one of the things i don't like about writing is that the only thing i don't like about writing is that at some point, it always becomes obsession. yes you know, and picasso did not stop at 3:00 to play picasso did not stop at 3:00 to play tennis . you know, you need play tennis. you know, you need that kind of obsession. i think unless, you know, to get right up there. >> i think that's right. and i think it's a shame sometimes when people say they, you know, this person hasn't had a good work balance. that work life balance. isn't that

kind morally reprehensible ? kind of morally reprehensible? but at the wright but you look at the wright brothers, created powered brothers, who created powered flight. read biographies flight. you read the biographies and autobiographies. they and the autobiographies. they were fanatical about were absolutely fanatical about getting thing off the getting this thing off the ground, or newton or mary curie or, you know , in some tiger or, you know, in some tiger woods. it wasn't actually a healthy life to try and become the best golfer. >> that's no trouble. so many of the of the greatest art lists were pretty neurotic . but of were pretty neurotic. but of course, that's because they were obsessional. there was no balance there at all. >> but but there are certain activities these people activities where these people probably have tough lives . probably have tough lives. they're neurotic, you know, they get burnt out, but they give to society a new technology , maybe society a new technology, maybe a new way of thinking, a great piece of art. yes, you can look back on your life and say, right , fawlty towers , life of brian, , fawlty towers, life of brian, say the name again . uh, fish say the name again. uh, fish called wanda, uh, and these other brilliant, you know, at least. am i right in thinking that you look back? i can't look back on table tennis. i can find

anything . no one watches me on anything. no one watches me on youtube. the two clips that are out there smashing against yellow with health. this is not a legacy . a legacy. >> see, now, when i asked you to come on, i said to you. is there something you would particularly want to talk about ? now's your want to talk about? now's your chance. >> it's something that i think we don't talk about enough. and i think because it's a bit depressing, but actually we need to confront difficult truths. and as a civilisation , and it's that as a civilisation, we crossed a very interesting rubicon in the 1950s. we had developed the power to destroy ourselves as a species . so the ourselves as a species. so the number of nuclear weapons that were on the planet in the 1950s and since, and still today were sufficient to destroy humanity many times over. you notice putin was , um, boasting that putin was, um, boasting that he'd got . more than we have . i he'd got. more than we have. i think he's right about that . i think he's right about that. i think he's right about that. i think putin has more. >> i don't think you need many

to kerb course a bit a bit of a problem. >> exactly. what's fascinating is that science is an inherently unproved , suitable trajectory . unproved, suitable trajectory. we don't know what scientists are going to discover next. they don't know either. by definition, they're going into the terrain unknown. the the terrain of the unknown. the same technology . and yet we same with technology. and yet we have developed ever more have now developed ever more technologies confer an technologies that confer an existential risk on the species, one that's come up recently is artificial intelligence generalised ai may pose a threat to humanity, but there's also, for example , bacteriological for example, bacteriological warfare . we know from covid that warfare. we know from covid that you could easily manufacture, presumably a pathogen with a long incubation period, but a very high infection fatality rate and if a if a scientist using genetic sequencing was able to do that and unleash it, it could kill billions of people with with within months . and as with with within months. and as i understand it, we are moving much the democratisation of technology means that we're

conferring more power on individuals . and in a population individuals. and in a population globally of 8 billion people, there's always going to be fanatics. yeah psychopaths, people who, for whatever reason, are willing to inflict damage on the rest of humanity . we it the rest of humanity. we it seems to me we are not giving any attention to this at all. and what worries me is i sometimes worry that the woke in anti—woke debate is just a gigantic piece of freudian display , that it's almost like display, that it's almost like the big challenge of existential risk is so big that let's just have a chat about these completely irrelevant ephemera , completely irrelevant ephemera, and we don't have to deal with it. well, that's what the internet is looking like more and more even the even the news sites that i used to go to get more trivial every month, right ? more trivial every month, right? it's almost like when the world reached a place after 250,000 years of humanity , where we years of humanity, where we actually now realistically could destroy ourselves within in certainly within 50 years. the former astronomer general said. this is mankind's last century.

he wrote a book on the topic. many of the people that i bump into an academic circles are convinced we won't make it to the next century, and yet the whole of popular culture is kind of funny. videos of people falling over on the internet in the political debate. it's thrashing around in shallows thrashing around in the shallows of and superficiality. of decadence and superficiality. hahahahaha >> anything else ? scaring the >> anything else? scaring the excrement out of you ? excrement out of you? >> well, these people, the characters in this room scare me enormously . yeah, there is enormously. yeah, there is something intimidating. >> they're all robots , right? >> they're all robots, right? >> they're all robots, right? >> they're all robots, right? >> they i yeah , all of them. >> they i yeah, all of them. >> they i yeah, all of them. >> they i yeah, all of them. >> they were ones that had gone a bit wrong. it's one of the most. so we got them cheap. >> it's amazing. it's amazing. >> it's amazing. it's amazing. >> well thank you matthew. we'll pick up this conversation again later on. >> thank you john great to see. now . as i expect you've heard, now. as i expect you've heard, we've had a lot of complaints about the music, but i think

it's quite good. >> and i'm going to chat to ben castle who wrote it? i'm castle now who wrote it? i'm very, very pleased to have you. because your dad. because of your dad. >> that's nice. >> oh. that's nice. >> oh. that's nice. >> me about roy. >> tell me about roy. >> tell me about roy. >> well, he was lovely dad to >> well, he was a lovely dad to have been gifted with. >> he could do anything, couldn't he? >> he was a wonderful dancer. he could sing. could play could sing. he could play musical instruments. could musical instruments. he could play musical instruments. he could play . he could. was play sketches. he could. he was just wonderful. was of just wonderful. he was one of my favourite performers in my youth. >> oh, that's amazing. >> oh, that's amazing. >> really loved every >> really loved him. every time he came on, there was a kind of cheer free freshness about him. and i just adored him. so it's great to have you here doing the music. oh thank you. i want to ask you . ask you. >> thanks . ask you. >> thanks. thanks very much. >> thanks. thanks very much. >> thanks. thanks very much. >> thank you. yeah but what i want to know, you play a massive number of instruments. what have we got here? that's those are drums, right? yeah, those are drums. >> that's the electric bass. >> that's the electric bass. >> oh , yeah? yeah. now these >> oh, yeah? yeah. now these look very old. are they roman or etruscan or this, this. >> the saxophone is the one the normans played . normans played. >> um. really? >> um. really? >> yeah, yeah, this very one at

the time they built the castle. yeah, was actually, was yeah, it was actually, it was actually left here. they left it here. >> they left it. >> they left it. >> i think they thought they might the might have another gig. the following year. yeah. yeah, yeah. >> and then they came. >> and then they never came. we all we know what happened and >> we all know what happened and what that's not what is that now that's not a violin. >> no, i don't think so. >> no, i don't think so. >> i bought it, it said >> when i bought it, it said flute the on the flute on flute on the on on the flute on the of a right. the package of a right. >> that's it. >> yeah. that's it. >> yeah. that's it. >> this , this is, this is an >> and this, this is, this is an alto flute. so . henry mancini alto flute. so. henry mancini used these a lot in his pink panther themes. >> and what i find is standing ben, is that you just pick that thing up and suddenly something quite beautiful happens . quite beautiful happens. >> well, i still find it astounding as well. well, i hope something beautiful happens. it's not always the case. >> well, i'm interested in is the music effects me really emotionally . that's what i want emotionally. that's what i want from music . yeah. and a lot of from music. yeah. and a lot of my friends say you don't like

music. and i say, no, i don't like a lot of music. i prefer total silence to a lot of modern music, you know? yeah. so what else have you got there that you can demonstrate anything on? >> so yes, this is the saxophone i >> -- >> oh. >> oh. >> what was you doing that with your fingers wasn't it. >> it was just a little cassette machine. i've got in there. >> yes. >> yes. >> so . >> so. >> so. >> so. >> so just to make me look good, i just don't know how people can do this right. but for me, i, i, i almost feel guilty every day that my hobby is , is my career. that my hobby is, is my career. yeah. because i love it. >> thanks for the dad. like yours. you weren't being told to get a proper job. yeah. get a properjob. yeah. >> that's it. he would have been very upset if i'd become a heart surgeon or something. >> now play something just at the which is the double bass. >> the double bass ? um. >> the double bass? um. >> the double bass? um. >> oh, that's that one.

>> oh, that's that one. >> that's this yes yes, >> that's this one? yes yes, this is the clarinet . yeah. this is the clarinet. yeah. right. and i have a phone in my pocket just just being a prototype . well, actually this prototype. well, actually this this is called the nose flute, but with this, you're blowing with your nose and the shape of your mouth determines the note. so . unbelievable is that, um. so. unbelievable is that, um. >> now, beethoven didn't write a concerto for that. >> it's still to come out. if he did. >> yeah, it'll be found one day. >> yeah, it'll be found one day. >> people are looking into it. >> people are looking into it. >> just do the theme. come on. birdland . birdland. oh! baby oh, baby , i love you. oh, i baby oh, baby, i love you. oh, i love you, too. >> thanks . love you, too. >> thanks. thanks so love you, too.

>> thanks . thanks so much,

john. >> and now, sir trevor mcdonald , >> and now, sir trevor mcdonald, thank you so much for doing this silly show. great pleasure. real pleasure. you see what fascinates me about you, sir trevor is that you've been working in british television since 1973. it's a very long time. 50 years? yeah. what i want to know is how has it changed over that time? >> my impression is that everything happens much more quickly now . and, uh, you don't quickly now. and, uh, you don't have as much time to make up your mind about what you say and how you're going to present what you say, and it's not easy anyway, these days , to get anyway, these days, to get a fair idea of what's going on in some situations, you have to work very hard . hard? yes, at work very hard. hard? yes, at discovering .

discovering. >> i mean, one of the things that was remarked about you is that was remarked about you is that you always wanted to get out there and find out what was really happening on the ground. i mean, you went straight off to northern ireland. i wanted to go to northern ireland. >> i must confess, here, partly for personal reasons. i was employed by itn and i had absolutely no reason why they gave me this job and i wanted to make sure that i was doing what everybody else was doing. yeah. in other words , to put it very in other words, to put it very bluntly , i didn't want to be the bluntly, i didn't want to be the token black man on itn. i wanted token black man on itn. i wanted to do what everybody else was doing. and as you say, it resulted in my going to northern ireland, which was probably one of the most extraordinary things i've ever done. i never heard a bomb go off before. i went to belfast. i could hardly spell kalashnikov . belfast. i could hardly spell kalashnikov. i didn't know what what that word meant. and here was i thrown into this situation . but i learnt a lot.

>> what did you learn, though? when you're in a situation like that with violence all around you, what do you learn? >> i began to understand that and what the problems were all about, and i'll just give you one example. there were always difficulties about the so—called marching season . yeah. and i marching season. yeah. and i thought , marching season. yeah. and i thought, what's marching season. yeah. and i thought , what's the marching season. yeah. and i thought, what's the problem about marching ? you could march about marching? you could march wherever you like . that's not wherever you like. that's not the point . the protestants the point. the protestants wanted to march down the catholic areas , the national catholic areas, the national lists of the catholics wanted to march down the protestant areas. there was almost a kind of aggression to the politics. there was a very strong kind of religious base. yeah. to to, to, to some of this. i remember once i frequently say to my friends, i frequently say to my friends, i stumbled into an argument about mickey communities and mixed races and mixed areas was

and i hadn't got hold of exactly what was happening. and um, and i said, i don't understand what your problem was about mixed areas or mixed communities. you know? and i said, i have a mixed marriage, for example, and they said, is your wife catholic? i said, is your wife catholic? i said, no, she's white. but immediately you see, they they thought there was a religious bias to everything, that that was what i took away from, from i'm kind of interested, though, whether you had, um , whether you whether you had, um, whether you learned anything . about human learned anything. about human nature from that kind of thing and also from. >> well, let me ask you, you interviewed saddam hussein . interviewed saddam hussein. what's that like ? yeah . saddam what's that like? yeah. saddam hussein , um, was , um, a hussein, um, was, um, a fascinating interview in the fact that, um , he had not done

fact that, um, he had not done many and i think he was the only one that he did for a british tv. >> so i had the weight of expectation on me that i was the only one who was going to be able to, to, to see him. so i was terrified . um, he had was terrified. um, he had a pretty awful reputation on, um , pretty awful reputation on, um, somebody told me, in fact , that somebody told me, in fact, that there was one meeting at which some minister began , began to some minister began, began to voice a disagreement about something with him. saddam hussein took the minister out, shot him , continued, and shot him, continued, and continued the meeting as though nothing had happened. and so i was i was terrified about about doing this. but fritsch you weren't physically frightened . weren't physically frightened. no, you had to you had to, you know , man up and what was the fear? >> was it just being with someone who was so ruthless ? someone who was so ruthless? >> i thought that i would say something , um, which he would

something, um, which he would not like. and, and he would say, i did not like this. and it would get a little awkward. nothing like that happened. all right. what i learned was that it was so rare for people to see him being talked to and being asked to, you know, being made to answer questions. there were about half a dozen of his ministers sitting around my interview . and i got a little interview. and i got a little annoyed, and i said, what are you guys doing here? don't you have anything else do on an have anything else to do on an evening? um, and they took me aside don't evening? um, and they took me aside understand don't evening? um, and they took me aside understand , don't evening? um, and they took me aside understand , do don't evening? um, and they took me aside understand , do you?»n't evening? um, and they took me aside understand , do you? we quite understand, do you? we never see him being asked questions , which he is made to questions, which he is made to answer. prayer and then leave on from that. at the end of the interview, i went back to my hotel suite and discovered that that there were about half a dozen people from the ministry of information in my hotel suite drinking my whisky and, and, um, which didn't please me too much. and they said, how was it? and i

went on about the interview and you know what i said and how he responds and so on. and they were quite nonplussed about this until i discovered that what they were really saying to me was what was he like ? and it was what was he like? and it took me a little bit to understand that they had never met him. they had never been in the same room with the president of iraq . um, so he was an a of iraq. um, so he was an a dictator who kept a long way from his people . um, his edicts from his people. um, his edicts went out. >> and this is why dictator ships always go wrong. because in the end, they're only told what people think they want to heat what people think they want to hear. that's right, that's right. the right. tell me about the greatest nelson mandela . greatest nelson mandela. >> him one of the most >> i found him one of the most extraordinary people i'd ever met. i couldn't understand how someone who had spent 27 years behind bars could emerge so conspicuous und bitter about

about anything that had happened to him. and i had sort of very good reason to think about that even more profoundly , when i met even more profoundly, when i met him after the first interview, five years later, when there was the south african world, the rugby world cup, which was being held in south africa and i went to do an interview with him very early in the morning. one day of the matches . and, um, he said, the matches. and, um, he said, could you have the lights turned down? and we did . and he said, down? and we did. and he said, could you turn them down a little bit more? and we did. and he asked, he said, just a little tweak down again. and i said, you know, mr president, the problem is this is television and we need the lights . and if and we need the lights. and if we turn them down any more, they would not be able to see you or me when this is transmitted. and would not be able to see you or me apologised is transmitted. and would not be able to see you or meapologised immediately. . and would not be able to see you or meapologised immediately. he1d he apologised immediately. he was extremely gracious was always extremely gracious and said , um, no, i have had and he said, um, no, i have had problems with my eyes and so on. um, i've had splinters in my eyes and um , he then went on to

eyes and um, he then went on to say from breaking rocks on robben island . and i thought, robben island. and i thought, looking at this presidential figure , i couldn't actually figure, i couldn't actually construct in my mind the scene when he'd been made to break rocks and robben island. but yes, that's that's what happened. and yet he never, never dwelt on any of that. i had forced it out of him with this stone story about the lights. and so what i found about him was that he had this view , too, that he could play a view, too, that he could play a part in changing the south african system . i challenged him african system. i challenged him on this because i thought, you know, i'd been to south africa before, and i thought they were pretty implacable about what they wanted to do with their country. thought it'd be country. and i thought it'd be very for any one man, very difficult for any one man, even mandela, to change this . even mandela, to change this. and he said to me, and i've always remembered this. he said , always remembered this. he said, if you're prepared to sit down

and talk seriously , then and talk seriously, then everything is possible. and i said, no, no, no, but not everything is possible. some of the peripheral things are possible, but the fundamental principles remain, and they can't be changed. and he said, no, everything is possible if you're prepared to sit down and talk seriously and to compromise . yeah. and for somebody who'd been put behind bars for 27 years coming out and talking about the ability to compromise , about the ability to compromise, if i'd been in prison for 27 days, compromise eyes would not be the first thing on my mind. on on coming out. and he was able to do that with that, that, that conviction and it it worked to some extent. you know . yes. to some extent. you know. yes. um, he changed he changed the face of south africa with the cooperation of people who began to see the virtue of doing this, like the clerk, the clerk did very well. yeah. he did very

well . and they both got the well. and they both got the nobel prize. >> yeah. yes, that was good. that's right, that's good. yeah well, thank you so much. i really appreciate it. thank you .

and now i'm going to have a chat with a resident pollster, frank luntz. frankie, thank you for being . here luntz. frankie, thank you for being. here de—man. >> i wouldn't miss this for the world. >> oh that's lovely. now when i met you the second time in an elevator, you were amused that i'd just read your book. yes right. >> you made me speechless . >> you made me speechless. >> you made me speechless. >> ah. and what was the name of the book? words that work. so explain why by your expertise helped you to write that book. >> so my job is to understand how americans feel. >> it's actually a global experience. and to know the power of words to change minds,

to change hearts, to be able to communicate to you. >> but how did you discover that? >> i discovered it by accident . >> i discovered it by accident. i had been told. thank you very much. you're welcome . go away. much. you're welcome. go away. so there's a difference , by the so there's a difference, by the way, between he's a worker versus an employee. so i realised how well—dressed he is . realised how well—dressed he is. clearly. polyester. not not natural fibres. if you call him a worker, that means he works 9 to 5. if you call him an employee, that suggests that he has a career that suggests something significant. so even though you may not like him , i though you may not like him, i could understand why. yeah um, just by changing how you label him, you change his relationship with you and your relationship with you and your relationship with him. >> yeah , i get that. but what >> yeah, i get that. but what i'm interested in is, how do you know which is the better? you said to me once , you said, never said to me once, you said, never say you write anything , or we say you write anything, or we say you write anything, or we say you write anything, or we say you crafted it because writing is pedestrian. >> yeah. the two gentlemen

playing chess right now, they could be writers. but if you craft something that suggests something special, an expert sees. >> sees. >> but how did you acquire your expertise ? i mean, were you expertise? i mean, were you always listening? you were at oxford for a year. >> i hated it, yeah, i know, but did you every minute. >> and you can see i hated every minute i wear the. minute that i wear the. >> i wear the union jack with pride . and i'm an anglophile . i pride. and i'm an anglophile. i love being an anglophile. i love your work. i love the comedy , i your work. i love the comedy, i love the culture, and i look at my country and i'm so disappointed . and i hate these disappointed. and i hate these americans who come to a foreign country and bash their own. and i find myself doing it because we're not the same country. don't move that. by the way. put that. put that pawn back . that that. put that pawn back. that is not the move. the move would have been your queen. come on, put the pawn back. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> the queen. and don't screw that up. and by the way, i just want to the nuns want you all to know the nuns behind yes they're cheating. behind us. yes they're cheating. unless you deal with that.

>> you're cheating. pamela. yes she nodded. you know, how do you know? but i watched this when you were. when you were at oxford , were you already oxford, were you already noticing this business about the words? it's fascinating. but what? where did the impulse come from to study this to see which words are good and which aren't? where did it come from? >> it came from a speaker of the house named newt gingrich and he said to me, we don't have a language guy. we don't have a we have a theoretician, but we don't have someone who focuses on the messaging. would you be willing to do that? this happenedin willing to do that? this happened in 1993, and the first examination i did of this was the was the idea of the difference between an orphanage and a foster home. a foster home sounds nicer , but it's actually sounds nicer, but it's actually much worse than an orphanage. and newt gingrich , right around and newt gingrich, right around christmas time of 1994, talks about the importance of supporting orphanages and the

public, condemned him. he lost his significant support because all they could think of was tiny tim and a christmas carol, and it made newt gingrich into the ganh. it made newt gingrich into the grinch . that's gingrich, the grinch. that's gingrich, the ganh grinch. that's gingrich, the grinch that stole christmas. that was the first time that i studied language. if you call something an estate tax , you're something an estate tax, you're rich. if you call it a death tax, you just died. if you called it climate change, it's not so bad. if you call it global warming. it's really frightening . even in the stuff frightening. even in the stuff that we drink. you call this a carbonated? it means that it's got chemicals. you call this sparkling? uh it's a fun taste of the mouth if you call it gambling, you're addicted. if you call it gaming , that's las vegas. >> that's very good. those are good examples because i always wonder when people buy pre—owned cars whether they would have bought a used car. >> yes, but you missed it. it's

certified pre—owned. hahahahahahaha if it's certified, do you guarantee that someone beat the crap out of your car? but the word certified fide is significant . it's fide is significant. it's powerful and we see it right now, even even in the terminology of the government , terminology of the government, the respect that people have . the respect that people have. it's not about diversity. it's not about inclusion. it's about respect. if i show you respect, that's the highest value that i can demonstrate to you. i respect your craft, i respect your humour . your humour. >> you got this information from a poll from polling and focus groups and asking questions , groups and asking questions, which has a bigger impact on you, which matters more. you were asking individuals, correct? yeah. okay >> a typical survey don't make he's a really bad player. um, you you i wouldn't pay attention to him. >> why don't you resign now and you go and have a drink? >> but, um, this is just so distracting . um, and even distracting. um, and even looking around this room, i see that he's wearing a white jacket , which you should not do until

the 4th of july. and i see that the 4th of july. and i see that the two of them are drinking with inside, they with hats inside, and they should them . i should not be wearing them. i see nuns back there. see the nuns back there. i nofice see the nuns back there. i notice that they're cheating. you have look. this is no you have to look. and this is no joke. you actually study how people look at you when i talk to you, you make eye contact . to you, you make eye contact. most people don't. most . people most people don't. most. people that look surprises me. >> most people don't. >> most people don't. >> most people don't. >> most people don't because they're intimidated by it. so when see that someone's when they see that someone's looking at them, they'll look down, around. they down, they'll look around. they don't attention to don't pay direct attention to it. how room is , uh, it. i see how this room is, uh, constructed. i see how far the tables are from each other. i see where the lights are placed . see where the lights are placed. >> you see, one of the things i do in this area is in this series. i'm trying to be closer to the people i'm interviewing , to the people i'm interviewing, because i think that gives a slight sense of intimacy and people are more likely to forget the surroundings and get involved in the conversation. >> and what's different from this is most shows that are discussion oriented. you're on a couch or you've got a chair and

the guests are on a couch . this the guests are on a couch. this is much more personal. you've got your chair, i've got my chair . yeah. this is how you chair. yeah. this is how you elicit how people really feel. we're afraid to say what we really think . we're afraid of really think. we're afraid of being cancelled. we're afraid of being cancelled. we're afraid of being judged. and your effort is to bring out the truth. and there's nothing more important than the truth. and this is why i'm in the great, why i'm in great britain and not in the us. because the us has lost respect for the truth. our politicians, our business leaders, the substance of these conversations are so important right now . but are so important right now. but we say things to make ourselves look good. yeah, rather than what we truly feel. and the challenge right now is how do you tell the truth so that people trust you ? how do you people trust you? how do you know that what you read is the truth? how do you know that what you see on the bbc or itn or channel 4, how do you know that it's the truth? because if we lose the truth, we lose democracy . absolutely. my

democracy. absolutely. my greatest fear , and you have it greatest fear, and you have it in britain with your former prime minister, boris johnson. we have it in america with donald trump. but two of we have it in america with donalrby'ump. but two of we have it in america with donalrby the). but two of we have it in america with donalrby the way,t two of we have it in america with donalrby the way, they'reo of we have it in america with donalrby the way, they're not them, by the way, they're not them, by the way, they're not the same boris. >> they have a lot of similarities. boris has written more books than trump has read. >> is coloured in >> oh yes, trump is coloured in more books than than boris more books than than than boris is written. there's something i want you to see. i don't know if there's a way to get my. yes, lewis, can we get frankie's a computer here. >> oh, look , he's having >> oh, look, he's having a little drink, aren't you, sweetie? oh, that reminds me of your second wife. oh okay. tell me what this is about. and we can we can show it to the audience, too. >> we asked the question about what mattered most to democracy, to the future of the country. and nothing matters more than the truth. this has been my life for the last ten years. on the passionate pursuit of the truth . passionate pursuit of the truth. yeah, no matter what, if i don't have the truth, how on earth do

i know how to vote or what movement to attach myself. and the good news is, that's exactly what the population thinks as well. even more than transparency , even more than transparency, even more than integrity. without the truth, you cannot have a strong democracy kc you cannot have an effective media. you cannot have . a performing academia. nothing can function without the truth. this allows us to say to our elected officials, look me straight in the eye and tell me what really is not what you want it to be, but any of them going to do that, frankie? >> i mean, they're all minding their own backs, aren't they ? their own backs, aren't they? >> there are some things more important than an election. there is some things more important than making people feel good. >> yes, but they've got to be very special people before they feel that, don't they? >> well, we have hope that we >> well, we have to hope that we have of them. yeah, have enough of them. yeah, clearly not necessarily in clearly it's not necessarily in the leadership in your country or , and it's why or my country, and it's why i left my country. it's why i'm here right now . here right now. >> have basically

>> so have you basically switched residence every year ? switched residence every year? >> i come here for 2 or 3 months to get my bearings again to get my oh, you switched it on for us again. >> i do notice here, frankie. down bottom right . all the down bottom right. all the things that are least important that are seriousness. top tolerance, reconciling nation dignity and clarity. yes how can you have truth without clarity ? you have truth without clarity? this is very strange. >> i do find it interesting that even even your cat. yeah. understands . the importance of understands. the importance of this. john, you make people laugh. you make people feel for good 30 minutes at a time or in a movie, 90 minutes at two hours. but so many people are so afraid of the future , are so afraid of the future, are so concerned about their families, about freedom . um, and they about freedom. um, and they don't have the answers to fix it . the economic challenges right now gave rise to boris johnson in this country and donald trump

in this country and donald trump in america. the feeling of being ignored , forgotten, left behind , ignored, forgotten, left behind, even betrayed . these are serious even betrayed. these are serious emotions that lead to january 6th. that lead to conflict . and 6th. that lead to conflict. and if we don't address them , then if we don't address them, then even a master showman or a master comedian , a craftsman master comedian, a craftsman with words even we will fail . with words even we will fail. >> do you think there's anything that i >> do you think there's anything that! or >> do you think there's anything that i or you or somebody listening in can do now to help, to make things just a tiny bit better , you have to demand that better, you have to demand that people look, you straight and eye straight in the eye and tell you the way things are . you the way things are. >> you have to insist that where you your news is accurate , you get your news is accurate, not factual , and compress not factual, and compress offensive. so you get all sides offensive. so you get all sides of the story. yes. when i first met you, i was pretty partisan , met you, i was pretty partisan, and i was very careful about having you were centre right when you first met me, but but i was partisan and i'm not

partisan anymore. my fear is that the left does it and the right does it. oh, yeah. the right does it. oh, yeah. the right may do it better than the left, but they both try to do it . and in the end we have to reject that. we have to say enoughis reject that. we have to say enough is enough in fact, the word that i love more than any other word in english other word in the english language . language was reconciliation. yeah. the idea that these british chess players and these alcoholic sitting right there and the nuns that are behind me can actually get along. yeah, that was my goal. >> have fun together. yeah. >> have fun together. yeah. >> and now it's empathy . yeah. >> and now it's empathy. yeah. it's knowing where you come from, knowing what your challenges are. and actually showing some heart , not just showing some heart, not just head but heart to one other question will you shut up? >> yes , yes. >> yes, yes. »- >> yes, yes. >> you can ask me anything. >> you can ask me anything. >> i've always wanted to say that to someone . now, when you that to someone. now, when you were a kid in reading, tell me

you were a person of colour. you were regarded as a person of colour. how were you treated by the by the whites? >> well, so the school i went to, you leave the school and there's a little parade of shops and on the door of the this was for years there was a and you remember the nf the national front . front. >> oh yeah. >> oh yeah. >> it was kick effing peas out of this country. vote nf . of this country. vote nf. >> your first reaction is of shock, but do you kind of finish up thinking rubbish? well, at the time i definitely struggled with the fact the first girl i asked to date me, yvonne, uh, and this would have been in the second year of senior school. >> you know, it took a bit of courage as a ping pong wasn't unfashionable. but, you know, i and she said, pick on someone of your colour. and like, your own colour. and i was like, heartbroken . i really, really heartbroken. i really, really liked her. and thought, this

liked her. and i thought, this is and i remember is a disaster. and i remember i'd bed up having i'd go to bed and wake up having dreamt i was white, and dreamt that i was white, and wake thinking, damn, wake up thinking, damn, i'm still still you still, i'm still brown, you know? and i had two wonderful parents that you brilliant loved me. and it was. i wouldn't want to say anything negative about my childhood in that sense, but yes , i was conscious of it all yes, i was conscious of it all the and the nf was still the time and the nf was still there. i went to first football game, the p word was game, reading the p word was shouted liberally . that was the shouted liberally. that was the first club game you or other people or what? at me and more because it was it was quite unusual to have a brown skinned kid going to a football game in the first national team match that i went to was this. this is a your knowledge here. a test of your knowledge here. all it england all right. it was it was england against czechoslovakia and the first ever black person to play in the england men's national team. do you have any inkling of who that because you know, your sport is a defender? no >> defender. >> defender. >> viv anderson and my mum takes

me and andy, my brother , we go me and andy, my brother, we go to wembley. i remember getting a hot dog from the van and we thought it was very extravagant to buy like £0.20 or something, and we got in and the and the n word liberally used and word was liberally used and monkey chants. so so john growing up was, it was let me ask you this . ask you this. >> why do they do it ? fear of >> why do they do it? fear of the other , um, a way of bonding the other, um, a way of bonding with each other. >> are at school. there was a teacher who used the p word to my face. many, many times. but do you know what i would say? >> you know, you see what is interesting to me is we're saying yes. right? >> but, you know, you even say short. >> yes, even saying it, even saying that is now is that right? >> but but that for me that's not a, that's a positive. >> it's a contraction . why does >> it's a contraction. why does it have this extraordinarily nasty, um , atmosphere connected . nasty, um, atmosphere connected. >> that's a really good question. so that's one worth sort of analyse being at school when i would hear this word,

people that's no worse people would say that's no worse than you saying english for an engush than you saying english for an english person brit. well why english person or brit. well why is it worse? the reason it is fundamentally different is i knew that my dad hard working, really charismatic , brilliant really charismatic, brilliant human being, was working in the civil service and he worked hard. he wanted to provide for his family. he wanted to give us as his children opportunities, his passionate about it. as his children opportunities, his passionate about it . but he his passionate about it. but he couldn't get promoted . he would couldn't get promoted. he would never get invited to social events at the water cooler if people or the corridor they were talking, he would come and they would dissipate and it was incredible. so in my mind, i'm thinking i live in society thinking i live in a society where empirically at the moment, much less now . and i'll come much less now. and i'll come back to that one's colour influences one's life chances in arbitrary way. so someone drawing attention to my skin colour with the with the word the p word, can you see that comes freighted with a whole range of other things that are

deeply pernicious to me and to my family , and to my father's my family, and to my father's progress, and to my progress ? so progress, and to my progress? so saying to someone, you're a brit, you're drawing attention to someone who has whose it's brilliant to be a brit in britain, but using the p word has totally different connotations . why the word was connotations. why the n word was so stigmatised in america? >> i think i've been insulated all my life from this kind of thing. my dad was in india in the early 20s and he seemed he had a condo sending attitude to the indians. um, and but he liked them and told affectionate stories about them and about how the english behaved in those days, which was not vicious or horrible so much not in his experience, but was more like, um, the rugby teams on saturday night when they've had too much been night when they've had too much beer. that's that sort of thing . beer. that's that sort of thing. and so i grew up with him. i remember him sometimes inviting

people of colour to his house to just have tea. and my mother was a bit surprised. she didn't mind the only people that we hated were the welsh , which is hilarious. >> just over the border. >> just over the border. >> yeah, well, just we could just look across the water. the bristol channel and there they were . so it was very , um, to me. were. so it was very, um, to me. and then i went on to clifton college, where we had a jewish house and a lot of my friends were jewish. i used to organise teams from north town to play soccer with a tennis ball over there, because they had a great court and i never really saw anything very nasty. i saw a superiority not to the jewish house because they were cleverer than us. but you know, i saw i never saw anything horrible. and then when i hear you talking, it's so aimless. it's so

then when i hear you talking, it's so aimless . it's so stupid. it's so aimless. it's so stupid. >> but, you know, john, i would say, and this is based on deep personal experience , we've got personal experience, we've got so much better in this country. yes, we have. i think we're one of the most possibly the most progressive, racially tolerant countries in the world. and i've neven countries in the world. and i've never, ever conscious of i have to be very careful of saying that because we're not supposed to admit anything is getting better. >> but this is a tragedy to me. >> but this is a tragedy to me. >> yeah, i think the story of racism in this country is a good news story. over the course of my lifetime, relative to other nations, we're doing tremendously well. it is absurd to compare ourselves to the united for example. united states, for example. it still seated cultural still has deep seated cultural problems, and we're making great progress, are we? but to say that we've made progress? people say means you think it's say that means you think it's perfect. i think it's perfect. i don't think it's perfect. i don't think it's perfect. nothing perfect. perfect. nothing is perfect. nothing >> em w- perfect. >> look at how well certain ethnic groups are doing in this country. >> things a bit better and there. >> absolutely. i'll tell you what, john. i feel a tremendous

sense gratitude by my sense of gratitude issued by my father. you even the in father. you know, even in the in the 60s, you know, harold wilson introduced the race relations act . actually, it was in the, uh act. actually, it was in the, uh , that was in the 70s, but there was progressive legislation that's why i stood for parliament. i stood for labour. i thought that this was a really wonderful thing to do, stand in 2001 ago, thousands , 2001 years ago, thousands, millions of white people have wanted the right thing and wanted to do the right thing and have marched and of camp and, and a place and i think we've got to a place now where if anybody said , as now where if anybody said, as they used to say to me, you know, with brown skin, that you're in slightly inferior , you you're in slightly inferior, you have congenital defect have a genetic congenital defect relative what? no one says that. >> now, i'm very proud that you're able to think that that we've these strides in we've made these strides in england . britain. sorry england. britain. sorry >> undoubtedly we have undoubtedly . undoubtedly. >> that's . good that's good. >> that's. good that's good. i mean, i only want things to get a bit better because we're never going to be perfect.

i feel i should apologise . for i feel i should apologise. for inflicting these nonentities on you, and i'd just like to promise that i won't do it again. and now for something much better. music . much better. music. nick. do . you do. you.

ella toone . next time on the ella toone. next time on the dinosaur. ah, i like a ruthlessness. >> my ruthless ness gets me into a lot of trouble. and i was gazing out of the window and the teacher said. >> what are you doing, claxton? and i said, i'm thinking, sir. he well, stop it. are the he said, well, stop it. are the two parts of your brain the hare and the tortoise. two parts of your brain the hare anchurtortoise. two parts of your brain the hare anchur hair ise. two parts of your brain the hare anchur hair is racing ahead >> your hair is racing ahead with ideas sometimes comes

with ideas and sometimes comes to blockage, whereas to a blockage, whereas the tortoise be plodding tortoise tends to be plodding along along you can dip along all along and you can dip into along all along and you can dip intcthat knowing john, you >> that really knowing john, you married one of my ex—wife's. i think i have indeed. you married connie booth for about 35 years now. we've been . now. we've been. >> come on. do you know what people people are not going to like you if you attack me. >> they love it when i attack. you know, they don't stand you. they shut

they -- they. they . many of the festivals of they. many of the festivals of the great religions of the world are celebrated with a special meal, a chance for family and friends to come together across generations . the act of sharing generations. the act of sharing food, adding to conviviality and togetherness is for some. faith will be uppermost in their hearts for others, it will be the joy of fellowship and the giving of presents . it is also

giving of presents. it is also a time when