gb news. >> welcome tonight with me, andrew doyle. it's the era of thought crime . police scotland thought crime. police scotland recorded 3800 non—crime hate incidents in one year. is it time to consign orwell's dystopia to the world of fiction as it's revealed a record 2.6 million people are off work because of long terme sickness? is it offensive for bosses to offer running club memberships to their staff? our trans athletes stealing medals from female competitors , biological female competitors, biological men competing in women's sport is an issue that just won't go away. when will the madness end ? away. when will the madness end? and ricky gervais has fallen victim to a woke pile on over the festive season, including

from his fellow comics. so what does this say about the state of comedy and society today? and as it's announced , the un have sent it's announced, the un have sent 153 migrants to rwanda despite thwarting britain's own deal and telling us rwanda isn't safe . is telling us rwanda isn't safe. is this hypocrisy of the highest level? all this and more after the news headlines with severe wenzler . wenzler. >> good evening . wenzler. >> good evening. i'm sophia wenzler in the gb news room. new year's plans have been ruined for thousands of people after eurostar cancelled all trains to and from london, causing travel chaos. the company apologised after a tunnel was flooded, apparently caused by a burst pipe apparently caused by a burst pipe connected to the fire safety system . up to 35,000 safety system. up to 35,000 passengers have been affected, with many left stranded at london's saint pancras station. eurostar says services will be up and running tomorrow after flooding in the tunnel was brought under control, although speed restrictions may lead to

some delays . and forecasters are some delays. and forecasters are warning people to take care ahead of new year celebrations as heavy rain and strong winds are expected in many parts of the country, with parts of scotland likely see scotland likely to see significant levels of snow. the met office says yellow alerts are in place until 3 am. tomorrow. a third man has died following a house fire in south london. emergency services were called to an address on sandy dead road in croydon just before 11:00 last night. two men were pronounced dead at the scene. the met police say a third man, believed to be in his 30s, died later in hospital and another man is in a life threatening condition in hospital, while a fifth person has been discharged and the cause of the fire is still being investigated . still being investigated. ukraine has struck a series of targets in russia , killing 14 targets in russia, killing 14 people and injuring more than 100 others. it comes after russia carried out its most devastating air attack since the invasion began . ukraine says the invasion began. ukraine says the brutality of the strikes, which

killed 31 people, shows there can be no talk of a truce with moscow. russia requested a meeting of the united nations security council today, despite most members condemning russia's actions at an emergency gathering last night. the uk's representative, barbara woodward , says russia is deliberately targeted civilians. these these missiles were aimed at population centres across ukraine, at kyiv, lviv to dnipro, odesa , kharkiv, dnipro, odesa, kharkiv, kilmezsky and many more cities . kilmezsky and many more cities. >> they struck homes, apartment buildings , shopping centres and buildings, shopping centres and metros . a maternity hospital and metros. a maternity hospital and a regional oncology centre have been damaged . a regional oncology centre have been damaged. in a regional oncology centre have been damaged . in short, civil been damaged. in short, civil infrastructure . infrastructure. >> and the british actor tom wilkinson has died . born into a wilkinson has died. born into a farming family in yorkshire, he

won fans for his role in the classic comedy the full monty. he was nominated for an academy award twice, and he took home a golden globe in 2009 for his portrayal of benjamin franklin in hbo's acclaimed miniseries john adams. singer will young has paid tribute to him as british acting royalty tom wilkinson was 75. this is gb news across the uk . on tv, in news across the uk. on tv, in your car, on your digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying play. gb news. >> welcome to gb news. tonight with me, andrew doyle. coming up on tonight's show. it's the era of thought crime police scotland recorded 3800 non crime hate incidents in one year. so is it time to make orwell fiction again and it's revealed a record 2.6 million people are off work because of long terme sickness. is it offensive for bosses to

offer running club memberships to their staff? and our trans athlete stealing medals from female competitors? that's what former olympic swimmer sharron davies thinks. she'll join me live to call for an end to the madness, including in grassroots sport . ricky gervais has fallen sport. ricky gervais has fallen victim to a woke pile on over the festive season , including the festive season, including from his fellow comics. so what does this say about the state of comedy and society today? and it's announced that the un has sent 153 migrants to rwanda , sent 153 migrants to rwanda, despite britain's own despite thwarting britain's own deal and telling us that rwanda isn't safe. so is this hypocrisy of the highest level we've got tomorrow's papers at 1030 sharp with full reaction from my brilliant political brilliant panel. political commentator and writer benedict spence , author and journalist spence, author and journalist emma , and former labour emma wolfe, and former labour adviser matthew lhasa. and they'll be telling us their heroes villains from 2023, heroes and villains from 2023, plus , the most important part of plus, the most important part of the show, your views gbviews@gbnews.com do email in and let me know your thoughts . and let me know your thoughts. let's get started with this . you

let's get started with this. you might recall a couple of weeks ago, the mp for redditch and deputy chair of the conservative party, rachel mclean, was in the news because she had reposted a tweet which referred to green party candidate melissa poulton as, quote, a man who wears a wig and calls himself a proud lesbian . and this happened to be lesbian. and this happened to be a statement of fact. but this didn't stop the west mercia police recording this as a non—crime hate incident. many of you might not be aware of what a non—crime hate incident actually is. you might be thinking to yourself, is really the yourself, is it really the police's to be investigating police's job to be investigating non—crime? that would be like your doctor phoning you up and saying, i hear you're really well at the moment. and of course have a point. course you would have a point. so has this come from? so where has all this come from? well, can tell you that it well, i can tell you that it hasn't come from government. hasn't come from the government. in of police in 2014, the college of police sing quango responsible for sing the quango responsible for training police forces in the uk , introduced non—crime hate incidents. they didn't have a

mandate for it, they just did. it the idea would be that even if someone hadn't committed a crime, of hate needed to crime, signs of hate needed to be monitored . in case these be monitored. in case these sentiments developed into criminal activity in the future , criminal activity in the future, you might follow the lead of science fiction writer philip k dick, called this kind of science fiction writer philip k dick, pre—crime this kind of science fiction writer philip k dick, pre—crime .:his kind of science fiction writer philip k dick, pre—crime . its kind of science fiction writer philip k dick, pre—crime . it soundsf science fiction writer philip k dick, pre—crime . it sounds a bit thing pre—crime. it sounds a bit dystopian, doesn't it ? what dystopian, doesn't it? what business does the police have in auditing our private thoughts and emotions? well, in a free society, none whatsoever . how it society, none whatsoever. how it works is this if someone is insulted or feels offended and perceives that the slight is motivated by hate , they can motivated by hate, they can contact the police and the person in question will have a non—crime hate incident recorded by their name . they usually by their name. they usually won't be told about this , and won't be told about this, and there is no evidential threshold required . in other words, the required. in other words, the accuser doesn't have to prove hateful . it'sjust hateful intent. it's just assumed hate is defined as being offensive against one of the five protected characteristics . five protected characteristics. you can find them listed on the websites of the crown prosecution service and the

college of policing. these are race, religion, sexual orientation, trans gender identity and disability . and identity and disability. and you'll note that these are different to the list of protected characteristics in the equality act, which also includes sex but features gender reassignment rather than transgender identity . the law transgender identity. the law enforcement agencies are using a revised list of their own making, and this explains why threats against women for standing up for single—sex spaces tend to be ignored by the police, but people have been arrested for misgender ing, in other words, for exercising their free speech. but you might say, look, no one has been arrested for non—crime hate incidents . and yet there are incidents. and yet there are other implications to consider. there are certain jobs teaching, for instance, in which a dbs or disclosure and barring service check is required . and if you check is required. and if you have a non—crime hate incident against your name, it will show up and you probably won't get that job. and even if that weren't the what about the weren't the case, what about the principles of a liberal democracy? can't only democracy? i can't be the only one it's deeply democracy? i can't be the only one and it's deeply democracy? i can't be the only one and authorities)ly sinister, and authorities britain to have the police recording lists of citizens who

have committed wrongthink. it sounds like the stuff of fiction, but it is very much real. in the five years after the college of policing introduced the policy, around 120,000 non—crime hate incidents were recorded in england and wales. estimates now suggest that they'll be knocking on for a quarter of a million by this point, and rachel mclean isn't even the first mp to have experienced this. in 2017, the then home secretary, amber rudd, had non crime hate incident had a non crime hate incident recorded against her because she referred to migrant workers in a speech at the tory party conference and someone took offence and contacted the police. mostly it's just police. but mostly it's just regular people clobbered regular people getting clobbered by sinister practice and by this sinister practice and man in bedfordshire was slapped with a non—crime hate incident for whistling the theme tune from builder at his from bob the builder at his neighbour, which for some reason was as racist. other was interpreted as racist. other actions that have been recorded as hate incidents by police include a disputed line call in a match, a dog a tennis match, a dog defaecating on someone's lawn , defaecating on someone's lawn, and a man saying that he was

campaigning brexit and the campaigning for brexit and the barrister sarah phillimore, who has appeared on my show many times, was recorded as having committed non—crime hate committed a non—crime hate incident posted incident when she posted a satirical tweet which featured a picture of her puppy, along with the caption my dog will call me a nazi for cheese. the point is that the police have no right to be doing this, and according to the law society gazette, it's not lawful and this has not even lawful and this has been tested in court. in not even lawful and this has been tested in court . in 2019, been tested in court. in 2019, former constable harry miller was contacted by humberside police following a complaint by an offended party about a poem that he had shared on social media, which was deemed to be transphobic. harry being an ex—cop, knew something was amiss . he asked why the unnamed complainant being described was being described as a victim if no crime had actually been committed, and more to the point, he said, why was he being investigated at all? to which came the ominous response we need to check your thinking, thought crime . that's a concept thought crime. that's a concept that readers of george orwell

will be familiar with. however, harry miller took the police to the high court with the help of the high court with the help of the free speech union, and in december 2021, the court of appeal ruled quote, the appeal ruled that, quote, the recording of non—crime hate incidents plainly an incidents is plainly an interference with freedom of expression. but by that point the home secretary of the time, priti patel, had already instructed the police to stop recording , instructed the police to stop recording, adding non—crime hate incidents over hurt feelings . incidents over hurt feelings. that was in april 2021 and then in march of this year, home secretary suella braverman published new guidelines reminding police that this is the case. but the college of policing have merely fudged the language of their guidance and just carried on as before . so just carried on as before. so what does that tell us? well, it would seem that the college of policing has been ideologically captured. now an activist captured. it is now an activist body, and would explain why body, and this would explain why so many officers to so many police officers seem to think their to monitor think it's their job to monitor the citizens , as the speech of uk citizens, as the speech of uk citizens, as the policing has been the college of policing has been told to stop it by successive home secretaries. they've been

told it is unethical and unlawful by the high courts , and unlawful by the high courts, and still they persist . and at some still they persist. and at some point it's got to stop. surely it's beyond the point now when the college of policing ought to be abolished and replaced with a service that observes the law rather than the demands of activists . i would have thought activists. i would have thought that by now, non—crime hate incidents would be a thing of the past. but the activists within of policing within the college of policing are their own within the college of policing are and their own within the college of policing are and they're their own within the college of policing are and they're not heir own within the college of policing are and they're not going vn way, and they're not going to give up without a fight . give this up without a fight. right before we go to my panel, i want to give a bit of a right of reply to the college of policing. so this is a statement they put in june of this they put out in june of this yeah they put out in june of this year. this was chief year. this was the chief constable, new constable, andy marsh said a new code are now in code and guidance are now in place when place for officers when responding non—crime hate responding to non—crime hate incidents. these incidents, incidents. these incidents, incidents should not be recorded where they trivial , where they are trivial, irrational or there is no basis to conclude that an incident was motivated by hostility and yet panel motivated by hostility and yet panel. and yet they did in fact

record a non—crime hate incident against rachel mclean when there was no evidence of hostility. and you can see from their wording there they're still going to do they're just going to do it. they're just going to do it. they're just going modify the going to change modify the language. am i the only language. emma, am i the only one who's disturbed by this? >> didn't realise this >> no, and i didn't realise this had introduced by the had been introduced by the college policing any college of policing without any mandate. deeply, as mandate. i think it's deeply, as you sinister, very you say, deeply sinister, very alarming. is truly the alarming. this is truly the stuff of orwellian kind of nightmares, if not, you know, kind dystopia . um, the fact kind of dystopia. um, the fact that people are, well , that the that people are, well, that the accusers are unnamed and that you don't even know this stuff has been recorded against you. the fact that you're i mean, you're citing people whistling bob the builder. you're citing people whistling bob the builder . yeah, like that bob the builder. yeah, like that is absolutely ludicrous . is absolutely ludicrous. >> you know, we could have non—crime hate incidents against us right now. you have to check. you check the you have to check in with the police. i assume police. i haven't, i assume i have few against my name. exactly. >> you don't actually know? yeah we to be clear about this we have to be clear about this ehhen we have to be clear about this either. mean, either. something i mean, i don't with hate don't agree with all this hate crime anyway either crime stuff. anyway but either it's it's not this it's a crime or it's not this weird of a non—crime

weird category of a non—crime hate i that's hate incident. i think that's where and very, very where it's weird and very, very alarming . and as you say, why alarming. and as you say, why are the police wasting time when we the police are so we know the police are so overstretched, underfunded, all this claim ? yes. this stuff that they claim? yes. why investigating this? why are they investigating this? why are they investigating this? why following up? why are they following this up? okay crime to okay when there's real crime to be, if i can ask. >> yeah. if i can have matthew or ben. does anyone have an opposing view? does anyone here think actually police think that actually the police are within rights to are well within their rights to investigate no . non—crime? no. >> okay, sorry about that. there's a consensus. >> okay, sorry about that. there's a consensus . okay. there's a consensus. okay. there's a consensus. okay. there's a consensus. okay. there's a bit of i come from, you know , you know, from the you know, you know, from the from but from the left of politics. but i think is very worrying. um think it is very worrying. um because it seems because first of all, it seems to me it's a total cop out for the cops rather than investigating real hate crime rather than actually getting things know things right. uh, when, you know , as we've seen with so many cases where they haven't delivered the people within delivered for the people within the five protected characteristics, whichever way that, you know, you take whichever five characteristics you take. yeah. instead you take. yeah. um, and instead it's just this is just ludicrous . i mean, it's judge and jury for a copper at end of a for a copper at the end of a phone.

for a copper at the end of a phone . um, who's enforcing phone. um, who's enforcing something that hasn't been decided by parliament? parliament be parliament needs to be sovereign, of sovereign, not the college of policing which a policing, which is which is a quango. it's training college. >> also so vague. have >> it's also so vague. we have a situation police forces situation where police forces are doing different are actually doing different things. doing it, some things. some are doing it, some are doing it, some are are not doing it, some are applying rules different are not doing it, some are applybecause'ules different are not doing it, some are applybecause there different are not doing it, some are applybecause there are fferent are not doing it, some are applybecause there are no ent are not doing it, some are applybecause there are no clear ways because there are no clear rules about this. benedict i mean, to this point, mean, i come back to this point, why government why won't the government just step in and say this quango is no longer fit purpose? no longer fit for purpose? >> your is as good >> i mean, your guess is as good as mine. this has been theme as mine. this has been the theme of various of of various iterations of the conservatives since came in conservatives since they came in to is that they say, oh, to power is that they say, oh, this very good, and then this isn't very good, and then they don't anything it. they don't do anything about it. they will just they don't do anything about it. they if will just they don't do anything about it. they if you will just they don't do anything about it. they if you say will just they don't do anything about it. they if you say that will just they don't do anything about it. they if you say that it's just they don't do anything about it. they if you say that it's bad. they don't do anything about it. theywhichr say that it's bad. they don't do anything about it. theywhich isay that it's bad. they don't do anything about it. theywhich is aycompletely d. they don't do anything about it. theywhich is aycompletely the um, which is a completely the opposite to labour party, opposite to the labour party, which and says, this is which comes in and says, this is our ideology. and you're sure that make that we're going to make sure that we're going to make sure that through. and that it is forced through. and i think really you think that this really shows you the failure, the betrayal , the failure, the betrayal, frankly, of the conservative party towards its own voters, that they have allowed these things over things to fester for over a decade now . and the best that decade now. and the best that they is oh , it's they can do is go, oh, it's a bit it's not good. bit woke. it's not good. somebody do something somebody should do something about as they're staring

about it. as they're staring down a general down the barrel of a general election, sat here election, we're all sat here going, did have going, well, you did have the power. the governor. power. you were the governor. thanks power. you were the governor. thacani power. you were the governor. thacan i come to you next? >> can i come to you next? because really because that's a really interesting it's because that's a really intejust ng it's because that's a really intejust that it's because that's a really intejust that particular it's because that's a really intejust that particular quango. not just that particular quango. the has the civil service also has exactly we've exactly the same problem. we've had recently had a whistleblower recently talking how whatever talking about how whatever immigration policy the government wants to do, the civil members will civil service staff members will thwart that the home office thwart it, that the home office will serious about immigration. >> weren't behind any of >> they weren't behind any of the a joke, the plans, that it's all a joke, but what does but more seriously, what does this our heads? and it's this do to our heads? and it's not being not even about being conservative voters. it's about the population the the population in general. the rachel , the man a wig rachel mclean, the man in a wig comments . yes, i think it was comments. yes, i think it was really i know it was a couple of weeks ago. i think it's really, really worrying when people can see the evidence of their eyes and they're being told the opposite. it is orwellian because you're being told the opposite can see, opposite of what we can all see, which what 99% of people were which is what 99% of people were saying. man in a wig. which is what 99% of people were sayin look, man in a wig. which is what 99% of people were sayin look, i man in a wig. which is what 99% of people were sayin look, i supportn in a wig. which is what 99% of people were sayin look, i support the a wig. which is what 99% of people were sayin look, i support the right|. now, look, i support the right of every single person to love who they want to dress. how they want exactly as they want to live. exactly as they wish. i think we should do wish. and i think we should do that with love and acceptance.

but when you are being told that a who dresses in a wig, a man who dresses in a wig, which absolutely a which is absolutely fine is a woman, we can all that woman, and we can all see that he's they are not a woman. he's that they are not a woman. what? what does that do to people? i think what it does , it people? i think what it does, it starts just to undermine the whole trust in whole fabric of trust in authorities , of society, of laws authorities, of society, of laws of all of this. it just makes one thing, well, it's just ridiculous. >> yes, that's an interesting point. i to it to point. i want to connect it to being say the opposite point. i want to connect it to bewhat say the opposite point. i want to connect it to bewhat can|y the opposite point. i want to connect it to bewhat can see; opposite point. i want to connect it to bewhat can see. right?;ite of what we can see. right? because, you raised the because, matthew, you raised the spectre hate crime a spectre of hate crime as a concept. that concept. now, the problem that we as emma sort of we have here is, as emma sort of saying here, that actually we have here is, as emma sort of sayingl here, that actually we have here is, as emma sort of sayingl mean, that actually we have here is, as emma sort of sayingl mean, the it actually we have here is, as emma sort of sayingl mean, the idea:ually we have here is, as emma sort of sayingl mean, the idea:ua saying hate. i mean, the idea of saying thatis hate. i mean, the idea of saying that is a in a wig is being that is a man in a wig is being redefined hate . the idea redefined as hate. the idea of women want single—sex women saying, we want single—sex spaces redefined spaces is being redefined as hate. so is even the categorisation of hate crime fit fit for purpose ? if no one can fit for purpose? if no one can agree what hate actually means? >> interesting that >> well, it's interesting that in actual case in these cases, an actual case for hate which would for hate crime, which would actually a court actually go before a court rather copper at rather than before a copper at the, you know, sitting in at the end of a phone line, it would be tested. you we have we tested. so, you know, we have we have crime laws, as you tested. so, you know, we have we have we crime laws, as you tested. so, you know, we have we have we havee laws, as you tested. so, you know, we have we have we have and vs, as you tested. so, you know, we have we have we have and yetas you tested. so, you know, we have we have we have and yet none| tested. so, you know, we have we have we have and yet none of know, we have and yet none of these cases are taken under that

because a law, as you because this isn't a law, as you said. a said. so clearly this isn't a law. is a mode of operation law. this is a mode of operation for the police . and what think for the police. and what i think is extraordinary is it's a complete money because complete waste of money because because can be seen here, because as can be seen here, every single police force either has elected mayor or has a directly elected mayor or a police and crime commissioner in and wales, and yet in england and wales, and yet they don't seem to be seem to be stopping there. tories stopping them there. the tories did at the last police and did well at the last police and crime commissioner elections. did well at the last police and crime c0|them.ioner elections. did well at the last police and crime c0|them.ionetories.ions. did well at the last police and crime c0|them.ionetories. none did well at the last police and crithemi|them.ionetories. none did well at the last police and crithem1|them.i0|be ories. none did well at the last police and crithem1|them.i0|be stopping|e this. >> finally, benedict, i just want you about this want to ask you about this because we i mentioned the equality act, has been equality act, which has been sort the college sort of rewritten by the college of to redefine of policing to, to redefine so that word sex is out of that the word sex is out of their list of protected meristics, even though it is there in the equality act. and this feminists and women this is why feminists and women who are basically standing up for rights, never for their rights, they never get any when any help from the police when they complain, they're any help from the police when theythey're complain, they're any help from the police when theythey're sortplain, they're any help from the police when theythey're sort of in, they're just they're just sort of demonised as demonised and smeared as transphobic or hateful or anything so what can anything like that. so what can we about that? an activist we do about that? an activist presence within such an important body, because it means that the police surely are not serving impartially. you need to marginalise people, you need to

sack them. >> to reform them. and >> you need to reform them. and the is that this the problem is that doing this sort branch reform sort of root and branch reform takes time. and that is, i'm afraid. back to the length afraid. i go back to the length of time the conservatives have beenin of time the conservatives have been in power. if you are going to sort of thing to take this sort of thing seriously, need to take it to take this sort of thing se terms, need to take it to take this sort of thing se terms, thisaed to take it to take this sort of thing se terms, this aed to take it to take this sort of thing se terms, this aed to take a in terms of this could take a decade to do, it will need decade to do, and it will need to done day and to be done on day one. and actually, we not had actually, what we have not had is terme is any sort of long terme coherent policy from this government on almost anything, coherent policy from this governm

men competing in women's sports is an issue that just will not go away . and next, as it's go away. and next, as it's revealed, a record 2.6 million people are off work because of long terme sickness. is it offensive for bosses to offer running club membership to their staff .

>> if you're listening to tv news, radio, welcome back to gbn tonight. >> if you need a reason to keep the weight off in the new year, here's a new one for you. job centres and bosses are referring people to running and therapy to keep them fit and healthy. in a bid to tackle long terme sickness. so this is a part of a new work well scheme by ministers that's launching next yeah ministers that's launching next year. people who seem at danger of falling out of the workforce will also be offered work. coaches physiotherapy and mental health support. so joining me now to debate this is a former fat families presenter, steve

miller, and author and journalist rebecca reid welcome both to the show. steve, can i come to you first? do you think that this is the way to tackle the problem of people being out of work is to for employers to help and government to help them and the government to help them and the government to help just get healthier? help them to just get healthier? yeah >> well, i think the actual title of this debate is absolutely bloody ridiculous. frankly i mean, we're talking about a running group, an employer offering , offering the employer offering, offering the word offering to a running group. anyone would think, you know, talking about being offensive. i mean, they're not offering naked leapfrog classes, for god's sake. you know, that may be offensive . they're may be offensive. they're offering something that's positive of something that's healthy, something that's good for your physical health as well as your mental health. so actually , i think it's a great actually, i think it's a great idea. i welcome it, rebecca, do you welcome it? >> do you think this is the way to go? >> i think it depends how you approach it. i think if you get back to work after christmas and

karen you karen from hr sidles up to you and listen, and says, listen, we've had a chat and we think you've put on a pounds christmas. a few pounds over christmas. so we're the running we're sending you to the running club. obviously to club. that's obviously going to go . um, employers go down badly. um, employers facilitating people being able to take exercise during the working day. amazing. but realistically , the main thing realistically, the main thing that's getting people work that's getting people off work is that require is things that require physiotherapy and mental health. and list for and the wait list for physiotherapy on nhs for and physiotherapy on the nhs for and therapy on the nhs is unbelie long like it's three years in some places. so yes, it's a lovely idea, but really having a little bit of a park run outside is not going to fix the massive work crisis that we have. >> yeah, i mean also, isn't >> yeah, but i mean also, isn't it case really this >> yeah, but i mean also, isn't it ofase really this >> yeah, but i mean also, isn't it ofase shouldy this >> yeah, but i mean also, isn't it ofase shouldy tithe kind of thing should be the responsibility of each individual rather individual human being, rather than employer sort than having your employer sort of pressure on you on you of put pressure on you on you to, run or to take exercise to, to run or to take exercise or to eat differently. steve don't you think really we should just people live the lives just let people live the lives that they want live stop that they want to live and stop interfering ? interfering? >> oh, in many ways, we've become in this become lazy asses in this country. i'm told i can country. frankly i'm told i can say that because we're now at the however, the watershed. um, however, i think it's about balance. i

think, yes, we've support think, yes, we've got to support people, i'm all for that. people, and i'm all for that. right? that's absolutely fine. but unfortunately , in the uk, but unfortunately, in the uk, unlike countries like japan, where the individual does take a lot of responsibility, we really have fallen back on that and we prefer often to stain a sofa with our arse . and that's with our arse. and that's frankly how it's become what, and this measure by the way, actually is something that the japanese do. it's part of something that they do their obesity rate is around 6% in the uk . ours is around 23. that's uk. ours is around 23. that's because we've normalised obesity in the uk. and it's not about steve miller being cruel and fat shaming. it's about being supportive, but also about being direct with people and saying to them , hang on a minute, you've them, hang on a minute, you've got to own your body a bit more. >> but rebecca, it isn't really necessarily about exercise so much, is it? i mean, surely this really comes down to a matter of diet and the choices that we make of nutrition. so

make in terms of nutrition. so so yeah, i mean any, any qualified nutritionist will tell you that you can't outrun a bad diet that you can you could diet and that you can you could go a run every day and that go for a run every day and that really make really wouldn't make a difference if you're eating particularly highly processed foods, of sort of very foods, a lot of sort of very seed foods, seed oil based foods, particularly bad , um, and particularly very bad, um, and convenience foods are particularly bad for you. >> we don't teach how to >> we don't teach you how to cook. people cook. we don't give people necessarily time to be able cook. we don't give people ne cook rily time to be able cook. we don't give people necook nutritiousne to be able cook. we don't give people necook nutritious food. be able cook. we don't give people ne cook nutritious food. it'sable to cook nutritious food. it's a lifestyle issue. and there's a there are a lot reasons why there are a lot of reasons why a lot people this lot of people in this country are overweight, lot are very overweight, but a lot of it's a privilege of it is that it's a privilege to time be to to have the time to be able to cook healthy food and feed yourself that and if you yourself in that way. and if you are , tired, overworked, yourself in that way. and if you are are , tired, overworked, yourself in that way. and if you are are likelyed, overworked, yourself in that way. and if you are are likely to overworked, yourself in that way. and if you are are likely to reach'orked, yourself in that way. and if you are are likely to reach fored, you are likely to reach for very, very high energy food that you can shove in your mouth to give energy. give you a burst of energy. >> a really good >> i think that's a really good point, i to point, steve. i want to bring that to you because surely poorer families, going that to you because surely po gor families, going that to you because surely pogo formilies, going that to you because surely pogo for the es, going that to you because surely pogo for the convenientgoing that to you because surely pogo for the convenient quick. to go for the convenient quick. they've got, you know, they haven't much time. they're haven't got much time. they're working they working all the time. they haven't much some haven't got much money. some of the tend the the cheaper foods tend to be the worst so surely you're worst for you. so surely you're talking the obesity rate talking about the obesity rate increasing. but isn't that inevitable? people's

inevitable? when people's choices are limited? >> no, no we're not. i'm not going to allow that to be an excuse. everyone to say excuse. everyone loves to say that, oh, we're all fat because healthy food is too expensive. the institute of economic affairs did a study on this some time ago, and they found out actually cheaper actually, it actually is cheaper to healthily . yes, of course to eat healthily. yes, of course you look deeply in the you have to look deeply in the supermarkets to find the bargains. i get that , and i do bargains. i get that, and i do think that the supermarket could do more when it comes to promoting eating. affordability of healthy food. but what we what we're lacking in this country in this debate is going down that route, is aspiration , down that route, is aspiration, passion and inspiration to encourage people, no matter what their income in terms of the solution that they can do something about it, that they don't have to live a miserable life, and being paranoid because they're too fat. there is something they can do about it. and that's what i'm all about. >> go on. rebecca wants to be bigger. >> like if you said to any woman i and i. i'm better on i know and i. i'm better on women than i am with men with

this any woman i know, if you said to her, would you like two extra lifespan to be extra years of lifespan or to be a size ten for the rest of your life? pick being a size life? she'd pick being a size ten. people be thin. ten. people want to be thin. it's desire. it it's not a lack of desire. if it were easy, everyone would do it, but it's a lack of education. personally, about £40 personally, i lost about £40 after i had my daughter and that was because i worked out that i needed to do intermittent fasting. i have pcos, i am insulin resistant, but that i was a year old woman was a 31 year old woman with two degrees to degrees and access to a nutritionist . but like it, it nutritionist. but like it, it took proper diagnosis to understand what was going on. most have access to most people don't have access to do it's not easy and do that. it's not easy and i think the idea that we can somehow make people feel sad and ashamed , so punish ashamed, so they punish themselves thin just themselves into being thin just doesn't that. >> it's it's not about >> no, it's not it's not about that at all. it's not about that at all. >> greatest and most she and >> the greatest and most she and steve i just ask very steve can i just ask you very specifically about that, steve, before just ask before you go on, can i just ask you think implying >> i think rebecca's implying that, that the shame that, you know, that the shame element perhaps not element here is perhaps not helpful. you do you take a different view or do you

understand that shaming someone for shape is just for their body shape is just it's going make matters w0 i'se. woi'se. >> worse. >> shaming them. >> shaming them. >> not i'm not talking >> i'm not i'm not talking about shaming i'm talking about shaming what i'm talking about is giving people solutions and being direct with people about taking get those taking action to get those solutions , rather than what your solutions, rather than what your bodyis solutions, rather than what your body is doing, solutions, rather than what your body is doing , which solutions, rather than what your body is doing, which is just talk all your all your other guest is talking about is the problems and telling everyone how is . by the way, how difficult it is. by the way, if poor, you're going to how difficult it is. by the way, if fat poor, you're going to how difficult it is. by the way, if fat forever. you're going to how difficult it is. by the way, if fat forever. ythink going to how difficult it is. by the way, if fat forever. ythink rebecca. terrible. >> i'm coming to rebecca now on that one chance to respond there. rebecca. >> yeah, it was all right, i just questioned i'm surprised to hear you saying that you don't believe shaming because hear you saying that you don't beli do shaming because hear you saying that you don't beli do historically|ing because hear you saying that you don't beli do historically haveecause hear you saying that you don't beli do historically have called you do historically have called people fatties people butterballs and fatties and lordosis which and lordosis and things which feels very much like fat shaming. and the best sort of research about, um, maintaining weight comes out of a weight loss comes out of a scandi university , which showed scandi university, which showed that the better your opinion of yourself is, the more likely you are to lose weight and keep it off. hating yourself and off. so hating yourself and particularly nasty nicknames seems to think so. >> wouldn't there be a way,