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on. >> hello. whenever i'm asked to be interviewed on the bbc, even though it's supposed to be about the mating habits of ring tailed lemurs , the first question will lemurs, the first question will be what about cancel culture? >> because was mentioning cancel culture is the best way of geeing people up, and that guarantees they won't switch channels. same with the word woke. most people have little idea what it really means, but despite that, tend to have despite that, they tend to have strong it . very strong feelings about it. very strong. now now, frank luntz, my resident pollster, will tell us what people do think it means. frank and john, we've been polling on woke for the last six months. >> i've got the data right here in my laptop, laid . our in my laptop, laid. our supporters are more than twice as likely to identify themselves as likely to identify themselves as being woke than conservatives . but one third of the british population doesn't even know

what it is . the data that what it is. the data that matters most to me , however, is matters most to me, however, is that one out of four brits have stopped talking to someone because they reject their point of view and one out of five have had someone do it to them . and had someone do it to them. and if you want to know who those people are, 18 to 29 year olds, half of our youngest population have cut someone off simply because they disagree. >> thanks, frankie . so tonight >> thanks, frankie. so tonight i want my dinosaurs to clarify a few things. so i've asked my friend matthew syed to give us a brief history of the word woke. matthew who can you help us? i think the first documented use is in a song by a blues singer called leadbelly , who was called leadbelly, who was singing about the scottsboro boys, who were a group of young black americans who had gone into the south of america and been accused of rape , been accused of rape, incorrectly accused of rape, but were sentenced to death after an

all white jury found them guilty within a few seconds. >> and what leadbelly is saying to black americans is be awake , to black americans is be awake, be aware of racial prejudice. if you go into the south, the jim crow south. yes. and it was really a consciousness raising turn. >> when was that ? >> when was that? >> when was that? >> so this song, scottsboro . >> so this song, scottsboro. boys was in 1930. thank you very much. uh, in 1938. and but what fascinates me, john, this turn becomes very prevalent in the african american community. you know , we need to be aware of know, we need to be aware of racial injustice . and moreover, racial injustice. and moreover, we need to be conscious of what we need to be conscious of what we need to do to overturn it. but then through a process of social and linguistic osmosis , social and linguistic osmosis, it tiptoes ever more widely into the mainstream . um, and then you the mainstream. um, and then you come up to today and it's now a terme of abuse , is that people terme of abuse, is that people who are woke are too sensitive to injustices in much the same

way that political correctness was kind of a positive turn at the beginning . yes, but now is a the beginning. yes, but now is a time of abuse and linguists call call this process pejoration how a terme , a positive terme slowly a terme, a positive terme slowly becomes a pejorative. >> but it then got widened from racial discrimination to any form of discrimination at all, perceived or real. >> it perceived , and any form of >> it perceived, and any form of injustice . yeah. and i think injustice. yeah. and i think perhaps around 2017, 2018 became wrapped up with this ideological move of, uh, in american universities called critical race theory , where injustice race theory, where injustice almost doesn't have to be observed. but is there in the power structure in stitutional racism, institutional misogyny, various other kinds of institutionalised things which are very difficult to measure empirically , but are said to be empirically, but are said to be there because of the structure of the power relations. and that's when. >> are there, and >> and they are there, and they're bad, but they're also perceived to be there when the justification for that

perception can be tiny . perception can be tiny. >> i have a bit of latitude to talk about these things because i'm mixed race. so i think if you're somebody from my background who has been on the receiving end of racism, it gives me latitude to kind of satirise what has become known as woke ideology. but you as woke ideology. but but you white right? heteronormative . white right? heteronorm ative. give white right? heteronormative. give from a colonial izing nafion give from a colonial izing nation . you imperialist. you go nation. you imperialist. you go into . exactly. you go into this into. exactly. you go into this terrain with some severe baggage on you. i kind of i mean, it's interesting to me that when i look at the trajectory of your career, i've always seen you in your early life. you took as many great comedians do. you took aim at the power structure of religion and conservative ideology. what you characterise as closed systems of thought. but i think you're right to turn your attention to woke because it has become a closed system . it has become a closed system. for me, the fundamental achilles heel here is not to understand the global context . if you look

the global context. if you look to other parts of the world, world ethnic discrimination is rife, right ? tribal conflict rife, right? tribal conflict still characterises much of sub—saharan and africa. much of the middle east. so these are two groups that will be fighting with each other because of a different . tribal identity. different. tribal identity. sometimes this has a different ethnic identity, a different linguistic identity. this has been a big problem for humanity since the agricultural revolution. right since the agricultural reisaytion. right since the agricultural reisaytion. democracy right since the agricultural reisaytion. democracy isght since the agricultural reisaytion. democracy is have to say liberal democracy is have done than other done this better than any other kind government. it has had kind of government. it has had an approach tries to treat an approach that tries to treat these sticks as these characters sticks as arbitrary, and we should judge people content of their people on the content of their character. talents character. the talents they could is it perfect? could bring is it perfect? unquestionably not. >> it's never going to be lebanon. >> look at somalia. look at these where they haven't these places where they haven't even a coherent national even got a coherent national identity, because people feel still, still feel they're a member of a tribe rather than a nafion member of a tribe rather than a nation state. i would love to see the debate just have a bit more more more nuance, a bit more historical geographical

historical and geographical understanding . that way, understanding. that way, we're more to reach an more likely to reach an interesting consensus about what we wish to do. what amazes me about woke anti—woke about the woke anti—woke argument is it's on argument is it's never on substantive that we can substantive issues that we can do to actually make people's lives better. yeah, it's a distraction from what we need to do. >> i think an awful lot of it is an unattractive side of humanity, which is to sort of want to be right, you humanity, which is to sort of want to be right , you know, even want to be right, you know, even if they don't know why they want to be right, they want to be right. so you get, as i said, you get , um, right. so you get, as i said, you get, um, uh, you right. so you get, as i said, you get , um, uh, you know, i've you get, um, uh, you know, i've suffered this upon fleeing oppression. um, michael, aggression because they've always, in america mispronounced my name. well, cleese. cleese whoever ate cheddar cheese, you know, so i. but i've survived , know, so i. but i've survived, you know, and i'm going to set up an institute where i can teach people to spot microaggressions , which microaggressions, which otherwise they might never nofice otherwise they might never notice at all. thank you . thank

notice at all. thank you. thank you . helen notice at all. thank you. thank you. helen i'm so, so happy to have you on this show. you. helen i'm so, so happy to have you on this show . and the have you on this show. and the reason i'm happy is that i can't get the woke people to come on and discuss it with me. we've asked over a dozen of them and they basically refuse. so the way i wanted you to help me, helen, is that since they won't come to on answer the questions, i'd like to ask if i ask you those questions , evans, will you those questions, evans, will you give me the answers that they would normally give? because you've studied that and you know how they think. and why won't they discuss this with me ? they discuss this with me? >> so you are coming here from a market place of ideas, approach the concept of debate , of the concept of debate, of bringing ideas together.

the concept of debate, of bringing ideas together . you're bringing ideas together. you're comparing them , seeing which comparing them, seeing which stand up best to critique, qualifying them and having them critique each other is understood largely as a western, white, masculine tradition. >> so this is liberalism , would >> so this is liberalism, would you say? yes, yes, liberalism is very explicitly critiqued in what i would call critical social justice. >> and most people call wokeness. liberalism is the big enemy . and this, this idea that enemy. and this, this idea that if we get people together and we can, we are then rational agents who can evaluate ideas , compare who can evaluate ideas, compare them, and replace bad ideas with better ones. or, as john stuart mill would say, exchange error for truth. this is to the social justice activists, a western philosophy . justice activists, a western philosophy. it does justice activists, a western philosophy . it does not allow philosophy. it does not allow for the lived experience and the different knowledges of marginalised people . marginalised people. >> as i am a straight white male and an imperialist, apparently,

yes, apparently . is that why yes, apparently. is that why they won't speak to me? >> um, it certainly is a big strike against you. yes. um but even more than that , what have even more than that, what have you taken effort to educate yourself , do the work? um yourself, do the work? um uncover your own biases , uncover your own biases, dismantle your whiteness , um, dismantle your whiteness, um, detoxify your masculinity and decolonise your concepts of knowledge . because if you have knowledge. because if you have not done any of this , then you not done any of this, then you are not, um, woke . you are not are not, um, woke. you are not awake to the systems of power and privilege. you are still asleep. and so there is no no point in in speaking to you. okay >> but the whole thing sounds to me really quite authoritarian , me really quite authoritarian, slightly like the medieval church . i mean, they're very church. i mean, they're very much saying what you can, not just what you can say, but also really you can think . really what you can think.

>> it certainly is an authoritarian , um, system. but authoritarian, um, system. but if you truly believe that these systems of oppressive power absolutely exist and permeate everything that they are perpetuated through language , perpetuated through language, they are doing harm to marginalised people every minute of every day. then the idea to control what people can say and what they can think, and also to subject them to unconscious bias training to retrain their minds. um, does seem like an effective way to achieve social justice. liberals like like me and like you, presumably we will argue with this and say no , no, um, we with this and say no, no, um, we need to argue about these bad ideas. we need to defeat these badideas ideas. we need to defeat these bad ideas by showing why they are bad. this doesn't work to the critical social justice people . people. >> yeah, well, one of the women who would not come on the show said that the very fact that we're having a discussion is the problem . yeah.

we're having a discussion is the problem .yeah. i mean , we're having a discussion is the problem . yeah. i mean , yeah, problem. yeah. i mean, yeah, this this is particularly strong in the postcolonial decolonial , in the postcolonial decolonial, um, movement . um, movement. >> and this you want to have a debate. i don't know if you've seen the slogans. um my existence is not up for debate . existence is not up for debate. that comes from the trans rights movement . if you want to debate , movement. if you want to debate, to disagree with them means that you're trying to decide for them completely. that's what it comes down to. yes. i mean, we saw linda sarsour , um, also said, linda sarsour, um, also said, uh, criticise um, of islam, for example, is a denial of her right to exist . now, obviously, right to exist. now, obviously, if islam didn't exist , linda if islam didn't exist, linda still would . um, but the idea is still would. um, but the idea is that by criticising any identity or any belief system , that you or any belief system, that you are not allowing people to exist as they as they are, but they just, um , speak of existing and just, um, speak of existing and even of genocide. i think an

awful lot of people have no idea that that's what some aspects of woke are about, because they just say, well, we're being woke is kind of people. >> and, you know, that's great. this, this idea that, um , this, this idea that, um, wokeness is about being nice. >> it is about about just being aware of racism, sexism and homophobia and being opposed to it. >> well , that's all totally >> well, that's all totally sensible . well, yes, but of sensible. well, yes, but of course , if this is wokeness is course, if this is wokeness is not the only framework from which this, this can be done. >> liberals also have been opposing racism for a very long time. marxists are on the grounds that it divides the working class and conservatives generally oppose this as well . generally oppose this as well. religious believers that think that we, we are all the children of god . this is what i have of god. this is what i have argued any kind of policy needs to allow for people to come from different frameworks, works in opposing, um, racism, sexism, homophobia or other bigotries. but the critical social justice

movement does not accept that that other frameworks do this . that other frameworks do this. >> you we mentioned, uh, cancel culture earlier. um, do you want to add anything to that? >> cancel culture is something that i've been dealing for with quite a while. um, because because a lot of time people think of cancel culture as something that affects celebrities who are being hounded and perhaps not allowed to speak in one particular arena . and they say, but you're still speaking. you haven't been called been cancelled at all. but if you look at who is actually being cancelled and the organisation that i have worked with looks at blue and white collar workers who are being asked to undergo various kinds of training are objecting to this training and are being fired . suffering disciplinary fired. suffering disciplinary action, trade unions are very, very wary of even addressing the issue . so a cancel culture

issue. so a cancel culture affects those who do not have voice. >> that's very interesting . so >> that's very interesting. so it's the it's the smaller people who suffer the worst because they lose their jobs, whereas people like you and me and j.k. rowling and so forth can speak out because they can't actually, uh, get us fired. >> this is why i would argue from an admittedly biased left wing point of view, that this cannot realistically be seen as a left wing movement when it arranges things so that only the independently wealthy can actually speak. >> that's funny . and uh, when it >> that's funny. and uh, when it supports corporations , as in, supports corporations, as in, um, putting inflicting these kind of policies on workers, and then it stands with corporations against workers . against workers. >> yes. this is very much against the, the whole ethos of the left in the us. it's an $8 billion a year industry. what is

um, this these kinds of trainings for employees. >> i'm fascinated by the way that corporations have . no, that corporations have. no, they're just frightened of an economic boycott. right. i i am not sure how much a boycott would , would actually work. would, would actually work. >> i mean , if we look at j.k >> i mean, if we look at j.k rowling, her books are not failing . um, to sell are they? failing. um, to sell are they? even though there is such strong opinion in such a small percentage of people actually adhere to these these critical social justice ideas that i don't think a boycott can really work well , don't think a boycott can really work well, i'm hoping it doesn't, because i'm thinking of the, um, at adaptation i'm doing of life of brian . uh, are you of life of brian. uh, are you going to be problematic again ? i going to be problematic again? i i love that word

with eamonn and isabel monday to thursdays on gb news, britain's news channel .

news channel. >> peter boghosian . philosopher >> peter boghosian. philosopher author that's me acrobat . author that's me acrobat. >> no no no oh no oh i was misled . misled. >> no. all right peter, you studied this. i have. how did we get here? it's a very powerful movement. nobody. sort of signed up for it . and we are learning up for it. and we are learning every day about, um, inclusion and diversity . and anti—racist and diversity. and anti—racist ism and all that. and it's kind of arrived without anyone quite knowing where it came from. it reminds me a bit of that thing in holy grail, when arthur says , in holy grail, when arthur says, um, i'm the king, and they say,

well, we didn't vote for you. we didn't vote for this, did we? >> no, it did not come as a result of a democratic process. ah, it blitzed . greek society in ah, it blitzed. greek society in the last ten years. and so the words that you mentioned are one of reasons that it spread of the reasons that it spread throughout society throughout the society inclusion, diversity , inclusion, equity, diversity, unity, anti—racism . people unity, anti—racism. people thought they were signing up for something different . they're something different. they're getting something that they did not sign up for. they've been hoodwinked. they've been bamboozled by. these words are you say woke? >> and it means kind . and you >> and it means kind. and you finish up with authoritarian ism, correct? >> it's similar in that the words have two meanings. the meanings that people sign up for and then the secondary meaning. so so, so, for example , so so, so, for example, inclusion when normal people who are not steeped in this, they hear the word inclusion , they

hear the word inclusion, they think, oh well, inclusion . that think, oh well, inclusion. that sounds like a great thing. we want to include people in wheelchairs. we want . to include wheelchairs. we want. to include people of all skin colours. we want to include people of all heights, of different ethnicities. agrees to ethnicities. everyone agrees to that. we every sane person will sign up for that. but what if inclusion actually means ? so inclusion actually means? so think about it like this. if we want to have an inclusive conversation, let's say we wanted to bring folks into our conversation . and we wanted to conversation. and we wanted to include them well, to make sure that they felt included. they have to feel welcome. so to make sure that they feel welcome , we sure that they feel welcome, we have to make sure that they don't feel offended. oh an inclusive space means a space where you restrict speech, a conversation in which speech is restricted , but people think restricted, but people think they're getting a conversation in which all people can sit at the table and have a conversation, a discourse as

equals. that's that's just not what it means. so for example, when you see the word equality, most people confuse and it's a very simple confuse . often what very simple confuse. often what it means to me it means fairness . yeah, that's the exact opposite of what it means . oh so opposite of what it means. oh so equality used to be a finance firm. you know, you had so much eqtuin firm. you know, you had so much equity in your home and that's how most people understood the terms until very, very recently. so no equity and equality are not the same things . in fact not the same things. in fact they're exact. exactly the opposite. >> they're the opposite . >> they're the opposite. >> they're the opposite. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> okay. go on. okay. >> okay. go on. okay. >> so equality means treating citizen one and citizen two equal early. they get treated equally. that's that's what equality means. equity means the redistribution of shares , redistribution of shares, redistributing something in society to have an equal outcome . for example , if you have so . for example, if you have so many members of a minority community in a society, you

would want either a proportional representation, right ? so let's representation, right? so let's say that you have 13% of your populace asian in is african american . then you would either american. then you would either want a proportional representation . which is a kind representation. which is a kind of equity, but what you would really want is to look at the historical characteristics of the people . so if someone's the people. so if someone's ancestor . the people. so if someone's ancestor. for example, were enslaved , you would want those enslaved, you would want those individuals to be disproportionately represented in disproportionate , in disproportionate, disproportionately higher 13% but higher correct . so that's a but higher correct. so that's a kind of reparation . it's a kind kind of reparation. it's a kind of reparation. but it's an equitable system. so you could think about it like this . ibram think about it like this. ibram x kendi, the more multiple mass best selling author succinctly captures equity as the only

remedy . to pass discrimination remedy. to pass discrimination is present discrimination . the is present discrimination. the only remedy to the injustices , only remedy to the injustices, the clear and obvious injustices and people were treated horrifically on the on the basis of skin colour. and nobody is denying that the only remedy to thatis denying that the only remedy to that is present discrimination and future discrimination . but and future discrimination. but that itself is not fair. no right ? that itself is not fair. no right? right. that itself is not fair. no right ? right. that's equity and right? right. that's equity and so that's in other words. so that's how people have been bamboozled. they've been hoodwinked by inclusion. they've been hoodwinked by equity . been hoodwinked by equity. they've been hoodwinked by diversity , by anti—racism. diversity, by anti—racism. they've been hoodwinked . by all these. >> give me an example from diversity, for example , in this diversity, for example, in this conversation we want diversity . conversation we want diversity. >> so ideally what you would want would a want is you would want a conversation all voices conversation in which all voices could be heard in which people who have different interests, different class interests, different class interests, different whatever interests would come and they'd be able to freely participate in an

exchange of ideas. >> incidentally, i wrote a little book on creativity, and i made that the most made that point that the most creative groups are the ones that most diverse. that are most, most diverse. >> yeah . and my guess is i >> yeah. and my guess is i haven't read your book. i apologise, but my guess . is that apologise, but my guess. is that what you mean by that is also intellectual . diversity. intellectual. diversity. >> well that's right, yes. you want diversity of ideas . want diversity of ideas. correct. you don't want a lot of culture clash, which is why the guy in charge of the meeting is so but if you get so important. but if you get diversity ideas , then you get diversity of ideas, then you get the creative groups , right? the most creative groups, right? >> so just beat me to it. >> so you just beat me to it. come on. so diversity means intellectual homogeneity. it means that people forward, they have the same ideas and they forward the same ideas and the ideas that that people forward are basically one kind of a narrow live based in the ideology . so diversity doesn't ideology. so diversity doesn't mean people of different skin colours. if anything, it means people of people whose ancestors were marginalised, who have the

same opinion. that's why, for example , black conservatives, if example, black conservatives, if you put black conservatives on a panel you put black conservatives on a panel, that's not diversity . you panel, that's not diversity. you have to have the same opinion . have to have the same opinion. are diversity, inclusion and equity. these words are simply not what people think and again, the an anti—racist ism, anti—racism is another one. the idea is that racism is ever present in a system . so you can present in a system. so you can have a system in which there are no conspicuous, racist, actual racists , but the system itself racists, but the system itself is racist . racists, but the system itself is racist. but racists, but the system itself is racist . but it's not. if is racist. but it's not. if racism occurs, racism is the default , but it's how it occurs . default, but it's how it occurs. and you just spoke with helen, who has a lovely example of this , in that a store owner of a small store is still around, and at the same time , two customers at the same time, two customers come through the door , a black

come through the door, a black customer and a white customer. well, who does the store owner help? first? if she helps the white customer , she only helped white customer, she only helped him first because he's white. but if she helps the black customer, she did that because he's afraid that the customer is going to shoplift , right? so no going to shoplift, right? so no matter. so the default condition is that the system itself , that is that the system itself, that that racism is always operative . that racism is always operative. and you need to be trained to uncover it. >> so it's like, um , oh, charlie >> so it's like, um, oh, charlie , you got a fur ball . oh, poor , you got a fur ball. oh, poor old charlie. maybe he's having problems digesting some of the work i did. >> charlie's had enough wokeism. yeah . yeah. >> jillian . >> jillian. >> jillian. >> philip john cleese. hello >> philip john cleese. hello >> nice to have you here. thank you so much for coming down. thank you for having me. now, listen, you used to be, uh, pretty successful children's author and. and now you're not.

>> no. i'm not. >> no. i'm not. >> no . >> no. >> no. >> i'd worked for, um , a company >> i'd worked for, um, a company called working partners , which called working partners, which is a book packager , and i'd is a book packager, and i'd worked for them since about 2011. >> uh, wrote quite a number of books for them in an animal fantasy series. so so all went swimmingly. then about in 2017, i started tweeting , um, about i started tweeting, um, about the gender ideology issue. uh huh. um, and then jk rowling had that horrible campaign of abuse against her. you maybe read it. at the time, it was just it was shocking. the amount of hate i know she got for stating something that everybody believed till five minutes ago, which is that you can't change your sex, you know, dress how your sex, you know, dress how you like because she said , you you like because she said, you know, sleep with whoever, whoever will have you, whoever however you want to. you know, um, can't, you know, um, but you can't, you know, don't bully people out of their jobs for saying that. you can't

change biological sex. and change your biological sex. and she got so much hate for this . she got so much hate for this. and i kind of felt i, i want to say something, you know, i, i kind of was aware that it was a really difficult , not very really difficult, not very touchy issue . so i added the touchy issue. so i added the hashtag. i stand with jk rowling to my twitter handle, and i know, uh, so that was , that was know, uh, so that was, that was kind of blood in the water. and everything was kind of quiet for a couple of weeks. oh, um , and a couple of weeks. oh, um, and then they kind of the sharks found me, you know , death found me, you know, death threats, threats of sexual violence and that sort of thing. so i kind of ignored the first few comments , uh, blocked, but few comments, uh, blocked, but it coming, and it was kind it kept coming, and it was kind of like a snowball rolling downhill. uh, it got worse for 24 hours. um so it started morning of the 26th. by morning of the 27th, my publisher was, which is this this is 2020, 2020, just not long after lockdown , say about then 27th, i lockdown, say about then 27th, i got i got to sleep at five in

the morning . uh, was called by the morning. uh, was called by my agent about nine. um and the book packagers were on the phone. working partners were on the phone . um, we'll have to the phone. um, we'll have to talk to harpercollins, see if it's you know, if you can still work for us and 2 pm, which was like nine new york time. yeah. uh, harper collins said, uh, right . she's out surfing, so. right. she's out surfing, so. yeah. sorry harper collins say you're out and you're fired. so that was it. and that was the end of my career as a children's author. i don't blame anyone else at for all not speaking up about this however they feel, because, yeah , they they know because, yeah, they they know they're going to lose their jobs . big ups that . but the kind of big ups that the and the the corporations and the companies, um , if they would companies, um, if they would stand up to it and say, i know we're not going to base our company's hiring on company's policy and hiring on like the opinions of some anonymous trolls on twitter , you anonymous trolls on twitter, you know, but , well, the know, but, well, the extraordinary thing is that several things here i'm fascinated by was, why don't they, if you put something out on twitter , why don't they

on twitter, why don't they identify ? identify? >> hello, hello . you're very >> hello, hello. you're very disgusting , aren't you? disgusting, aren't you? >> oh, don't listen to her. >> oh, don't listen to her. >> you're lovely . >> you're lovely. >> you're lovely. >> where are you going? oh, you love me. but if you put something out on twitter, why don't they make people , uh, don't they make people, uh, admit they're identity? why don't they say who's the author of this tweet? because it's the anonymity that allows these nobodies . yeah. to have nobodies. yeah. to have a feeling of power. >> yeah. that is true. but then again, on anonymity also protects people like friends of mine and writers who who agree with me. but and they can have anonymous accounts and say it. but and i don't blame them. as i said, they cannot tweet their opinions under their own name because their careers would be overdue. what do you do for money now? i i, um, i learned how to drive hdtvs. i became a truck driver . complete change of career. >> what it is for anything. >> what it is for anything.

>> my trucker's tan. >> my trucker's tan. >> i'm joking. no, but how did that happen? i suddenly thought they looked very nice as hdtvs. well, well , i they looked very nice as hdtvs. well, well, i didn't want to be in an indoorjob. in an indoor job. >> in an indoorjob. >> i realised i wanted to be out of doors because i say it was. it was the first year of lockdown and i was lucky in lockdown and i was lucky in lockdown in that i have a garden and i'd spent a lot of my time outdoors and it really helped outdoors and it it really helped . mental . it really helped my mental health. the cancellation health. after the cancellation happened outdoors happened and just being outdoors and working really hard, the authors, the society of authors is right who represent authors well? >> were they any good? did they help? it? would be so much better for authors if the society of authors was willing to protect their freedom of speech, but the i actually tweeted the society of authors about this , and they denied that about this, and they denied that freedom of speech was one of their priorities or even interests . a society of authors interests. a society of authors said , yeah, yeah, it's that's

said, yeah, yeah, it's that's not one of our things that we do to some authors i know who are extremely brave actually try to bnng extremely brave actually try to bring a freedom of speech, motion to their agm. >> last year. um, they they were called bigots and fascists on social media just for bringing a free speech motion before the agm and the society of authors , agm and the society of authors, um, ended up voting against . um, ended up voting against. free speech by 593 to 161. >> well, thank you for depressing me . yes, well, i'll depressing me. yes, well, i'll just go and kill myself , if depressing me. yes, well, i'll just go and kill myself, if you don't mind

greg i'm -- greg i'm so grateful that you

came. greg lukianoff , um, has came. greg lukianoff, um, has co—written the best book on this subject that i've read. you co—wrote it with jonathan haidt. wonderful author. it's called the coddling of the american mind, and it's the most interesting thing i've read on all this stuff. but what i'm fascinated by is that it all started with you having a severe depression . depression. >> yes. >> yes. >> so tell the tale . >> so tell the tale. >> so tell the tale. >> well, in two thousand and seven, i got so depressed i had to be hospitalised as a danger to be hospitalised as a danger to myself . um, and to be hospitalised as a danger to myself. um, and in to be hospitalised as a danger to myself . um, and in the to myself. um, and in the process of recovering the next yeanl process of recovering the next year, i studied cognitive behavioural therapy . and behavioural therapy. and cognitive behavioural therapy is something that teaches you to talk back to your your own exaggerated thoughts to when you're when you hear the voices in your head, you argue with them exactly. when you're catastrophizing, you call it out. >> so catastrophizing means what? that you're just thinking everything is going to be a catastrophe . oh that sounds very

catastrophe. oh that sounds very much like it sounds when people are anxious and depressed, they have all of these cognitive distortions , you know, at volume distortions, you know, at volume 11, going on in their head. >> and that just getting in the habit of talking back to them can relieve many of the symptoms of anxiety. and depression. >> so when you discovered that what happened then. >> well , you know, it what happened then. >> well, you know, it changed my life . uh, but started seeing , life. uh, but i started seeing, uh, all over the place. uh ways in which we were teaching young people the habits of anxious and depressed people. it was as if both in k through 12, um, in grade school and in higher education, it was like the adults were saying , by the way, adults were saying, by the way, do catastrophize . do catastrophize. >> oh, go on, do engage in emotional reasoning, do engage in binary thinking, which i know you think a lot about as well. >> so you linked up with don. uh unked >> so you linked up with don. uh linked up with john hite. >> i told him what i thought was because constitutional because i'm a constitutional lawyer. focus . lawyer. my major focus. >> are you? yeah i know, i

thought i liked you . uh, so . and thought i liked you. uh, so. and i was defending freedom of speech on college campuses and academic freedom . and i speech on college campuses and academic freedom .and i noticed academic freedom. and i noticed around 2013 that, uh, students were really clamping down both on freedom of speech. but they were also so rationalising it in this kind of medicalized way , this kind of medicalized way, that was all catastrophizing , that was all catastrophizing, all binary thinking, all of these cognitive distortions. so we wrote an article together in 2015 saying that the things that are that are threatening free speech on campus are also the kind of mental habits that will make young people anxious and depressed . essentially, it's depressed. essentially, it's teaching people that, uh, that essentially they should avoid challenges. they should avoid things that cause them any pain. but of course, things that cause you pain are also what cause you growth . yeah. and so the growth. yeah. and so the emphasis on having your children not experience either physical or emotional pain or challenges is actually a profoundly

unhealthy . way to teach kids to unhealthy. way to teach kids to think about the world and to let them be kids and grow up. it's tempting as a parent because i have a five and a seven year old. i understand it. you want to protect your from to protect your kids from emotional , but if you emotional difficulty, but if you don't prepare them for a world that's difficult and you don't prepare them for challenges , prepare them for challenges, you're not preparing them to be adults. and even worse, you're creating a situation where they're of course, they're going to be anxious and depressed because of the because they're afraid of the world. of adulthood. >> having all these insights with how do they affect with you, um, how do they affect the people who are advocating woke ideas? >> i think that to a degree , >> i think that to a degree, that's terrible advice. is inherent to a lot of what what we might call woke ideology that essentially challenges bad , that essentially challenges bad, that you should always follow your emotions , and most importantly, emotions, and most importantly, that that that it life is a battle between good people and evil people . a lot of the evil people. a lot of the ideology that we're seeing, particularly on campuses, is this very simple narrative of there is pure, good and pure

evil, and you want to be on the side of pure good always at war with the other, so that if you're agree with a lot of the transgender , uh, agenda, but transgender, uh, agenda, but disagree with some of it, then you are a very bad person and you are a very bad person and you , you're absolutely wrong . you, you're absolutely wrong. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> and this is part of the way that unfortunately, in the places where we should be learning to argue like adults, we're teaching very we're teaching this very childish arguing . it childish way of arguing. it creates this situation where you can just dismiss any person, any , any book, any thinker , any , any book, any thinker, any institution you disagree with. because since you can find everything is evil anytime you don't want to listen to somebody, you just declare them evil and you don't have to bother with them. you don't have to challenge thinking at all. >> want to ask you >> now i want to ask you a little cancel little bit more about cancel culture, every i little bit more about cancel culton , every i little bit more about cancel culton television every i little bit more about cancel culton television on ry i little bit more about cancel culton television on the i little bit more about cancel culton television on the second get on television on the second question, is something do question, is something to do with culture? and all my with cancel culture? and all my friends are why you friends are saying, why are you always about cancel always talking about cancel culture? always talking about cancel culturobsessed with it. yeah. we're obsessed with it. yeah. tell me what you're thinking

about it. >> so i have a book coming out called cancelling of the american cancelling . american mind, cancelling. >> yes american mind, cancelling. >> and yes. american mind, cancelling. >> and it's. american mind, cancelling. >> and it's making the point that only is cancel culture that not only is cancel culture real, it's so bad we're real, but it's so bad we're going to be studying it in 100 years. one thing that we've collected is the number of professors who have been punished or fired. and in the united states, you have to go back to the 1950s, to mccarthyism to see numbers that are anywhere near as close to the number of professors worse than mccarthyism in terms of numbers. absolutely. it the estimates about about 100 to 150 professors were fired from 1947 to 1957, and right now, we're well, we're approaching 200 professors getting fired. and, well, how does it happen? >> the students used to be the administrators were the ones getting professors in trouble. >> and then it increasingly became the students and the fellow professors who were reporting them. so mccarthyism, it people outside it was generally people outside of higher education who were

reporting professors, but now it's coming from within. and it's coming from within. and it's devastating for the production of knowledge, because if think that if people if people think that if people aren't stupid, if they look at it, an expert and they come up with an opinion and they say to themselves , wait a second, if themselves, wait a second, if you can be cancelled for having the wrong opinion, why should i trust you to be objective about this anyway? >> you anything to do >> you should anything to do with the fact that the fees at universities now are so high that the students are also kind of customers as well as students. >> that is part of the problem and they don't want to lose their customer . their customer. >> right? >> right? >> it's related to fees , >> it's related to the fees, both because it creates a customer always right customer is always right situation, because situation, but also because those fees, at least in the states, increasing pay for states, are increasing pay for armies armies. ever growing armies and armies. ever growing numbers of bureaucrats and administrators who enforce really rigid ideals , magical really rigid ideals, magical norms. they police freedom of speech and it creates an environment that is very chilled because the only real aim they have in life is not to get fired

. careerism definitely plays a part , but there's also people part, but there's also people who think that the key to saving the world is less and less freedom of speech . yes, you freedom of speech. yes, you would think we would have learned a bit from galileo . learned a bit from galileo. about . well, i feel , um, better about. well, i feel, um, better informed , but also completely informed, but also completely confused . confused. >> so i've asked helen and peter to have a final chat on the subject of what do we do? helen >> okay, if we are going to address the problem of wokeism, as we discussed , the main as we discussed, the main problem with it is authority ism in a liberal society, we don't want to ban any of these ideas , want to ban any of these ideas, but we also don't want to have them institute analysed. we don't want them imposed upon other people. so so i have argued that we expand the concept of secularism, as we would say . now, just

concept of secularism, as we would say. now, just as we wouldn't have someone in have to affirm the apostles creed in order to get a job, we shouldn't have having to write a have them having to write a diversity, and inclusion diversity, equity and inclusion statement, which mirrors critical social justice that should be something which is just off, off the table as as it would be with religion . peter i, would be with religion. peter i, i agree , we, i have three. i agree, we, i have three. >> you don't have to know i do, but i have a couple of nitpicks, but i have a couple of nitpicks, but i have three things that i think may help people trying to navigate this. >> and figure it out. i think the first order of business is . the first order of business is. what we spoke about is they have to figure out what people mean by words is. they're by words is. so if they're getting emails all the time from their daughter or sons schools talking about equity based learning, they need to know what that means or the words we talked about. yeah this is an anti—racist curricula , so they anti—racist curricula, so they need to have a basic rudimentary understanding of the meaning of

words. this is not an academic thing. this is so that they can pass, dissipate and understand what people are talking about. the second thing is they need to show up. they need to physically show up. they need to physically show up. they need to physically show up to meetings as often in school board meetings or any kind of municipality county meetings. the people who show up are the woke people, and they're the most vocal people. and so i know it's a hard work. i know people would rather stay at home in their pyjamas , but they have in their pyjamas, but they have to up . and the third thing, to show up. and the third thing, the simplest thing anybody can ever do don't give money to your alma mater, your alma mater, the college from which you graduated, is simply not the same place today. and so you're giving money to support an ideology . we know where the ideology. we know where the ideology. we know where the ideology comes from. it's the university system. we know that they're teaching students things that are untethered to reality. stop giving money to your alma mater. i don't think that our

institute options are largely salvageable at this point. i think that , but if someone would think that, but if someone would like to salvage them , media like to salvage them, media institutions, academic institutions, academic institutions, etc, that's fine . institutions, etc, that's fine. i think that the what we should be focusing on is building new things. >> i think in, in practice that would take very long time. if we look at the length of time it's taken to develop universities in this country . that was taken to develop universities in this country. that was i think that from the 12th century, i don't think we're going to quickly produce something as goodin quickly produce something as good in principle as the current university city system, where people can come together, where there are resources of all kinds, but it we don't want to have a revolution, burn everything down. i don't want to. i think things are more redeemable . than perhaps you do . redeemable. than perhaps you do. >> i, i hope you're right. my concern is that we have people who have jobs for life with tenure. my concern is that the

reason the ideology spread is because they've taught students who have then gone into the workforce , gone into workforce, gone into administration, etc. uh, if somebody wants to spend their time like that, that's that's fine. that's not how i choose to spend my time. i'm going to build new things. um it is odd when you think about it, that there is an ideology which has become a dominant value that nobody is allowed to question . nobody is allowed to question. we didn't vote it in. right? right | we didn't vote it in. right? right i mean, when you think about it, it's like, really? no one's allowed to question this. you can't even ask. just asking question, does it does it make sense to you? >> yeah, that's it. >> yeah, i think that's it. >> yeah, i think that's it. >> it doesn't make sense to >> not it doesn't make sense to me. does make sense to me. but does it make sense to you we have all of these you that we have all of these things that literally nobody believed ten years ago? men can get pregnant like just a suite of propositions that nobody believed. and now you have to believed. and now you have to believe them. and if you ask why you're not merely mistaken , an you're not merely mistaken, an you're not merely mistaken, an you're a bad person , that

should. >> i think peter should up a red flag . rather than confront these flag. rather than confront these people, because most of us don't really enjoy, confront station. some do , but they have a big some do, but they have a big advantage because most . of us advantage because most. of us don't. and if you want to avoid confrontation, then i think the way to put our stuff across is to ask questions. way to put our stuff across is to ask questions . because if you to ask questions. because if you ask a question and they say we are not allowed to ask the question and you apologise and leave , but you know, if you ask leave, but you know, if you ask questions, it's less confrontation . but you're also confrontation. but you're also querying what they're telling you. >> i don't know if you've heard, um, uh, the just just asking questions is jack now you will be accused of off of what if off if you ask questions. i'm just asking questions. this is seen asking questions. this is seen as a cynical move by a lot of activists now. and, um , you will activists now. and, um, you will just get dismissed , um, for, just get dismissed, um, for, for, for which is not not a

phrase i really want to say three times. >> what was this on the bbc? i'm afraid that's all we have time for . i'm now afraid that's all we have time for. i'm now going to make a pompous little speech because it's my show. so there . you see, it's my show. so there. you see, i believe in liberal democracy now! i know a lot of people say that liberalism has failed and i say no , liberalism hasn't failed say no, liberalism hasn't failed . human nature has failed . there . human nature has failed. there is no plan, no constitution, no set of rules that we human beings can't up . as winston beings can't up. as winston churchill . said, democracy is churchill. said, democracy is the worst form of government . the worst form of government. except for all the others . now except for all the others. now the essence of a liberal democracy is that people with different points of view discuss things, and then . we hope in an things, and then. we hope in an ideal world, some consensus

emerges that can be acted on. but the woke say no , we're not but the woke say no, we're not prepared to discuss our ideas because we are right . and if we because we are right. and if we start discussing them, people might suspect there is another point of view . so i don't think point of view. so i don't think that's a very constructive attitude . it works. i mean, at attitude. it works. i mean, at least it worked for pol pot . least it worked for pol pot. it's called authority ism. now the woke . aren't throwing people the woke. aren't throwing people into prisons, but they are having them thrown out of their jobs. it's the same authoritarian impulse this. oh, sorry for getting serious music .

next time on the dinosaur, our. you know, we killed a man . did

next time on the dinosaur, our. you know, we killed a man. did i tell you that? no. kevin klein and i killed a man in denmark. >> bellissima. novelist ema. bellissima. no bellissima. bellissima. no bellissima. bellissima . oh, bellissima . i bellissima. oh, bellissima. i think you can get more uptight. >> i think you should be offended by that, because i am. >> you're not. i'm offended that you're offended. i'm offended that you're not offended.

>> it's 10:00. >> it's10:00. it's new year's eve. i'm andrew doyle. we've got comedians in the studio and stationed around parties around the country to keep us company . the country to keep us company. we'll be looking back at 2023 and predicting what in and predicting what 2024 has in store for us. plus the newspaper front pages for new year's day. but before that, we're going to take live to athens , where take you live to athens, where the greeks are ringing in the new with a fireworks new year with a fireworks display acropolis . display over the acropolis. >> thank you andrew, i'm sophia wenzler in the gb news room. the queen of denmark has shocked the nation, announcing in her new year's message that she'll vacate the throne. queen margaret the second has reigned for more than half a century. she made the announcement on live television. she's to live television. she's due to step down on the 14th of january, exactly 52 years after she took the throne in 1972.

she'll be succeeded by her son, crown prince frederick . rishi crown prince frederick. rishi sunak struck an optimistic tone in his new year message, promising a brighter future with tax cuts and a reduction in national insurance . he described national insurance. he described 2023 as a momentous year which saw inflation halved and record investment in the nhs . that's investment in the nhs. that's despite junior doctors in england planning their longest walkout in nhs history. next month . the prime minister says month. the prime minister says his new year's resolution is to keep driving forward . keep driving forward. >> inflation is set to fall further cutting the cost of living for everyone . and we're living for everyone. and we're not stopping there . we're going not stopping there. we're going further to grow our economy by reducing debt , cutting taxes and reducing debt, cutting taxes and rewarding hard work, building secure supplies of energy here at home, backing . british at home, backing. british business and delivering world class education. >> meanwhile , the labour leader >> meanwhile, the labour leader says the power to shape the future of britain rests in

everyone's hands. sir keir starmer's message offered a preview of his party's election campaign, saying 2024 needs to give britain its future back in the labour party, we have been building to this for four years. >> we're confident we have a plan that can move our country forward , end the cost of living forward, end the cost of living crisis , take back our streets , crisis, take back our streets, get the nhs back on its feet, cheaper energy bills for your home, more opportunities for your children . your children. >> the family of a mother and her son who were killed in an avalanche in the french alps, say their beyond heartbroken. kate vokes, who was 54, died when an avalanche swept through an off piste ski slope on mont blanc thursday . her 22 year blanc on thursday. her 22 year old son archie, was also killed . old son archie, was also killed. he had achieved his level one ski instructor qualification in just a year earlier. there family asked for privacy, saying the tragic accident had left a hole in their lives.

the tragic accident had left a hole in their lives . britain's hole in their lives. britain's new year celebrations