and tensions in the middle east really, really are rising. meanwhile, tony blair has denied suggestions that he is taking on a role in the israel—gaza conflict. i'm asking a simple question should tony blair ever be involved in any capacity in any foreign conflicts? you tell me. and labour apparently considering plans to offer tax cuts if they win the next election in order to show that they are the party of aspiration. yes. they are the party of aspiration. yes . are there? you aspiration. yes. are there? you tell me. and a tv drama about the post office horizon scandal has gripped many of us. but of course, the saddest thing is the story is true. so postmasters had their lives, their reputation , their finances, reputation, their finances, their mental health absolutely ruined . but their mental health absolutely ruined. but do their mental health absolutely ruined . but do you their mental health absolutely ruined. but do you think their mental health absolutely ruined . but do you think anyone ruined. but do you think anyone truly has been held accountable . truly has been held accountable. yeah. are we going to have some pretty robust debate across all of that with aaron bastani and

peter hitchens? but before we get stuck in, let's cross live for tonight's latest news headunes. headlines. >> michelle. thank you. good evening. well, there's been another yellow weather warning for heavy rain on its way for tomorrow after storm henk battered parts of the uk last night. the west midlands ambulance service today warned people to take extra care after several people were caught in flooding and had to be rescued from their cars. parts of birmingham, leicester and northampton have been flooded today. one family was left terrified , more than 400ft in terrified, more than 400ft in the air while riding the london eye. strong winds ripped the door off. meanwhile, a 50 year old man was killed by a tree as his , which fell on his car his, which fell on his car whilst he was driving in gloucestershire. there's more rain on the way. people are being warned to expect more travel disruption tomorrow . travel disruption tomorrow. doctors have warned that medical professions may vanish from the

nhs unless pay is dramatically improved , and six days of improved, and six days of industrial action began. this morning after talks between . the morning after talks between. the government and the bma broke down. some of those striking have warned that countries, including australia, have been targeting advertising targeting them with advertising in to attract british in an attempt to attract british doctors to overseas jobs. junior doctors to overseas jobs. junior doctors want a 35% pay rise, which they say would restore their real earnings to levels seen in 2008. the government says that's unaffordable but insists the door remains open for further negotiations . a 15 for further negotiations. a 15 year old boy has been arrested on suspicion of murder following a stabbing in north london on new year's eve. 16 year old harry pitman died following what police say was an altercation as a crowd gathered on primrose hill to watch fireworks . posting hill to watch fireworks. posting on social media, his sister described him as a good boy with a heart of gold. a convicted killer who refused to reveal where he'd hidden the body of his victim has died in jail

while serving a life sentence. scott walker was jailed in 2021 for the murder of 17 year old bernadette walker . it's bernadette walker. it's understood she referred to him as her father, although they weren't related , and she was weren't related, and she was murdered in 2020 after accusing him of sexually abusing her over a number of years. he died in prison in december without ever revealing the location of her body. a spokesperson for the prison service said their thoughts victim's thoughts are with the victim's family . there have been two family. there have been two explosions at a memorial ceremony in iran , killing more ceremony in iran, killing more than 100 people. iranian state television showed footage of crowds running as ambulances rushed to the scene. officials described it as a terrorist attack as people gathered to commemorate the death of a senior commander four years ago. so far, no one has claimed responsibility . here so far, no one has claimed responsibility. here in so far, no one has claimed responsibility . here in the so far, no one has claimed responsibility. here in the uk, more young people are making the switch to non—alcoholic drinks. a study carried out by yougov found 44% of those aged 18 to 24

consider themselves to be either occasional or regular drinkers of alcohol alternatives. that's up from 31% in 2022. it also found younger generations are now the most sober age group, with 39% preferring not to drink at all. that's after a survey in november found 1 in 10 british drinkers felt they had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol . the princess royal is alcohol. the princess royal is to make an official visit to sri lanka next week, marking 75 years of british diplomacy. prince hassan is due to be joined by her husband on a three day visit, and that comes as the king and queen are expected to journey to canada in may, followed by australia, new zealand and samoa later in the yean zealand and samoa later in the year, and lastly eurostar has been given a warning by the advertising watchdog after promoting special fares that were available to very few people. the train company ianed people. the train company invited customers to soak up every second of summer with a

european getaway for just every second of summer with a european getaway forjust £39. european getaway for just £39. but the advertiser standards authority found only a very small portion of seats available at that price , describing the at that price, describing the promotion. therefore as misleading. eurostar says it takes complaints seriously and says it won't happen again . says it won't happen again. that's the news on gb news across the uk , on tv, in your across the uk, on tv, in your car, on digital radio and on your smart speaker. this is britain's news channel . britain's news channel. >> thanks for that, polly. michelle dewberry. and i'm with you right through till 7:00 tonight alongside me, i've got the columnist for the daily mail, peter hitchens, and the co—founder of novara media, aron bastani. good evening, gents, and year to both of and happy new year to both of you. and happy new year to both of you- happy you. happy new year. happy christmas. happy christmas. what a happy christmas. what a happy christmas. go. christmas. there you go. christmas. there you go. christmas is well, actually, it's pretty shocking how quick we on from christmas , isn't we move on from christmas, isn't it? like our morning that. look at that void there where there was a beautiful christmas was once a beautiful christmas tree which still tree which should still be

there. all down, there. we wipe it all down, don't we move on to 12th don't we? we move on to 12th night. yeah, there you go. night. yeah, well, there you go. are you one of those people that keep your tree up for the 12th night? or you someone i put night? or are you someone i put mine november. i mean, mine up in november. i mean, heaven what you think heaven forbid what you think about a about that, peter. that's a great over the edge. great tip. you over the edge. >> christmas trees. put it up when you like. >> well, it's yours. still up. could you to get it down? could you wait to get it down? you get touch tell me, could you wait to get it down? you gyou touch tell me, could you wait to get it down? you gyou gothh tell me, could you wait to get it down? you gyou got easter tell me, could you wait to get it down? you gyou got easter eggs me, could you wait to get it down? you gyou got easter eggs ine, could you wait to get it down? you gyou got easter eggs in your have you got easter eggs in your local that was the latest local shop? that was the latest thing i reported. what is thing i saw. reported. what is going on in this crazy society that we live in. get in touch with your thoughts with all your thoughts on everything there's with all your thoughts on eve goingg there's with all your thoughts on evegoing on, there's with all your thoughts on evegoing on, of there's with all your thoughts on evegoing on, of the|asi with all your thoughts on evegoing on, of the|as well lot going on, of course, as well in east. you've just in the middle east. you've just been some in the been hearing some of that in the bulletin. i unpick some bulletin. i want to unpick some of that with my tonight, of that with my panel tonight, but blair, do you but also ask tony blair, do you think he should have a role at all capacity, in any of all in any capacity, in any of the that's going over the stuff that's going on over in east? i can tell in the middle east? i can tell you some of you very you now, some of you are very strong opinions on that. my inbox that inbox is on fire on that particular all but particular topic. all ready. but for we know going on, for now we know what's going on, don't today again, the don't we? today again, the junior doctors are on strike this time, though apparently the longest this time, though apparently the longeit's days. this one.

think it's six days. this one. what going do it what we're going to do about it all then who needs to blink first? the junior doctors? first? is it the junior doctors? is government? of is it the government? all of these pay restoration these kind of pay restoration back is reasonable back to 2008? is that reasonable and with them? one and are you still with them? one of i got of the first emails i got tonight from viewer, sue, tonight was from a viewer, sue, saying , i am 100% behind the saying, i am 100% behind the doctor. says wage as doctor. she says their wage as they're now is they're paid right now is disgraceful . um, she says , even disgraceful. um, she says, even putting them up to £20 an hour as basic not enough for the as basic is not enough for the work that they do. are you with sue? are you still backing them? peter, where are you on it all? >> well, my main sentiment is that doctors should never go on strike. whatever their their case is, whether it's good or bad, whatever the circumstances are , doctors should not ever go are, doctors should not ever go on strike. it's if they wanted to go on strike, they should not have tried to become doctors. it's quite clear to me that if you're trade is or your profession is in the giving of mercy , that you can never mercy, that you can never withhold and to go on strike withhold it. and to go on strike is to withhold mercy. and it's simply fundamentally, strai ghtfo rwardly, straightforwardly, unquestionably wrong. therefore icannot unquestionably wrong. therefore i cannot support it. and

whatever the case may be, i'm not interested. the strike is wrong, and that's that. >> so how do they get their their worth then? financial >> well, there are many , many >> well, there are many, many ways of persuading people to pay you more. and actually very few people in their lives have ever been on strike. i am a member of being a member of a trade union since i first started full time work in 1973, i've been on strike during period for 18 strike during that period for 18 hours and a futile waste time hours and a futile waste of time . it was, have to say , it's . it was, i have to say, it's not to go on strike if not necessary to go on strike if you have intelligent leaders and the intelligent people on the other side of the negotiating table, these things don't have to happen. strikes i was an industrial correspondent covering strikes for years and years life in the 1970s years of my life in the 1970s and early 1980s, not one of those strikes was unavoidable , those strikes was unavoidable, but in those cases , at least, but in those cases, at least, the people who went on strike were were free to do so, because what they did was not so essential mercy. doctors essential as as mercy. doctors simply should not go on strike. and the police also cannot go on strike. they're not allowed to.

they're not particularly badly paid . and the there was a lot of paid. and the there was a lot of effort made in the time when i was an industrial correspondent to deal with the problem of firemen who had pay had firemen who had their pay had gone wrong, and they were gone badly wrong, and they were they up paid lot they ended up being paid a lot better. they after better. and they they after that, it was even more unreasonable for them to strike. but they should really be in the category who category of people who who shouldn't strike. i'm not saying people banned people should be banned from striking. people striking. i hate banning people from anything. just from doing anything. ijust think be self—evident think it should be self—evident that you were a doctor, that if you were a doctor, that you strike. and if you don't go on strike. and if you don't go on strike. and if you don't go on strike. and if you don't want to, to you say if you don't want to, to be a doctor, don't be don't be a doctor. but if you be a doctor, don't go on strike. aaron, do you agree? >> well, peter said, if you have intelligent one intelligent leadership on one side leadership side and intelligent leadership on other, then you don't on the other, then you don't need course, those need to strike. of course, those are very ifs perfect are very big ifs in a perfect world. mean, i shapps would world. i mean, i shapps would agree, but aren't in agree, but we aren't in that world. um. and . what i world. sadly we, um. and. what i would say is that rishi sunak, when he became prime minister had some big target s um, stopping boat crossings in inflation, but

inflation, interest rates. but also getting nhs waiting lists down. when he that promise , down. when he made that promise, when he outlined that target, he knew full well that junior doctors and people across the nhs would be going on industrial action, would be action, and that that would be a problem those targets . for problem for those targets. for waiting lists to come down, you need to basically pacify that part workforce. you part of the nhs workforce. you can disagree with, can agree or disagree with, whether or whether they're justified or not, is a prerequisite. not, but that is a prerequisite. and now what we're seeing is no real movement from the government. this is clearly going to make waiting lists longer. and i feel like the government is saying, oh, well, actually, we're not going government is saying, oh, well, ac'belly, we're not going government is saying, oh, well, ac'be able we're not going government is saying, oh, well, ac'be able to we're not going government is saying, oh, well, ac'be able to get 're not going government is saying, oh, well, ac'be able to get waitinggoing government is saying, oh, well, ac'be able to get waiting lists to be able to get waiting lists down, that's because the down, but that's because the junior strike. junior doctors are on strike. well, industrial well, we knew the industrial action in first action was there in the first place. made that pledge. place. you made that pledge. you're coming. on it. you're not coming. good on it. >> offered an extra >> so but they offered an extra 3, yeah i mean, so 3, didn't they? yeah i mean, so there movement and what there has been movement and what there has been movement and what the government said the government has said now victoria well victoria atkins would say, well actually not to actually we're not going to get back negotiation back around the negotiation table you're on strike. table whilst you're on strike. so the strikes, so if you stop the strikes, we'll again. we'll sit back down again. >> made that >> well, they've made that promise. inflation their promise. and on inflation their promise. and on inflation their promise seems to be coming. good on boats. coming.

on on small boats. not coming. good waiting list. good on an nhs waiting list. i think it also won't be coming. good depends on how good so look, it depends on how you politically. it you read this politically. it makes total sense from my perspective for give the perspective for them to give the junior what they want. junior doctors what they want. they've one more they've probably got one more year left. they've probably got one more yeasoeft. give them, what, 35? >> so you'd give them, what, 35? >> so you'd give them, what, 35? >> no, i think i think in >> well, no, i think i think in terms of short so terms of the short terms. so what want pay what they want is pay restoration to 2010 levels, but not go. not all in one go. >> 28. it's 2008 levels by 2008, 2,035. yeah, it's about well, it depends. >> i think depends. but >> i think it depends. but broadly correct. to broadly that's correct. 25 to 35% yeah not 35% isn't it. yeah they do not want it all one go. and the want it all in one go. and the costings i've seen have been around £1 billion in terms of short terme. now you might say. well short terme isn't good enough from political calculus enough from a political calculus point view . of course it is. point of view. of course it is. you a general election this you have a general election this yeah you have a general election this year. what i find really interesting is that the tories aren't going down that road, and i that's going harm i do think that's going to harm them at the general election in a way you might think, good. they're thinking about the long terme. when terme. but i am surprised when you instance, you think about for instance, what with the rmt, with what happened with the rmt, with the rail, for instance, we had no big strikes this winter. no big rail strikes this winter. that's because the tories knew a

winter last year, winter this year like last year, which just looks bad for them which just looks so bad for them electorally. i wonder why they're looking at this a little bit differently. >> but so i mean, it's not just about pay. there is. it's a pay of of the big of course, is one of the big facets this. they also facets of this. but they also are talking things like are talking about things like you've pay review you've got these pay review bodies they want to bodies now. so they want to almost i would summarise almost i would say summarise it by that changing by dismantling that and changing the those review bodies the way that those review bodies happen. kind happen. they also want some kind of guarantees against of guarantees to protect against inflation forward . and if inflation going forward. and if you give in to this collection as a government, so you give this particular collection, this one particular collection, you let's go back in you know what? let's go back in time to 2008. many of you, by the joined the the way, perhaps joined the profession point profession since that point and were happy with your salary, uh, beyond anyway , um, if beyond that. but anyway, um, if you that for the junior you do that for the junior doctors, then the next time peer reviews come around for all the other segments, they're going to 90, other segments, they're going to go, well, hang on a second, because want our pay because now we want our pay restoring y, dates. restoring to x, y, and z dates. >> that's precisely what i'm not suggesting, though, because you're right. you're absolutely right. you create problems create all sorts of problems elsewhere labour market. create all sorts of problems elsewi'me labour market. create all sorts of problems elsewi'me is|bour market. create all sorts of problems elsewi'me is it's r market. create all sorts of problems elsewi'me is it's r marian. what i'm saying is it's more an observation. michel in the short tum. just surprised

tum. i'm just surprised that the tories aren't just trying to settle a little bit of settle down a little bit of a fire, because we have a general election it election this year. it is a surprise to you had two big surprise to me. you had two big parts of the labour market last yean the parts of the labour market last year, the nhs year, rail workers and the nhs on action. it was on industrial action. it was causing an electoral causing them an electoral headache. makes people feel headache. it makes people feel the being run the country isn't being run properly. that's expressed in opinion , you know, seven opinion polling, you know, seven days a week, 365 days a year. right now . and it's surprising right now. and it's surprising to they aren't trying to put to me they aren't trying to put this fire out purely as a matter of electoral expediency. if nothing am surprised how nothing else, i am surprised how much is much of this do you think is political? much of this do you think is polwell? much of this do you think is polwell , it must be political >> well, it must be political because a national health because it's a national health service and government service and the government ultimately controls this. service and the government ulti it ately controls this. service and the government ulti it ately chave. s this. service and the government ulti it ately chave. i this. service and the government ultiitately chave. i don't service and the government ulti itately chave. i don't speak >> it could have. i don't speak for the government and wouldn't dream do so, but it dream of trying to do so, but it could be it crosses their could be that it crosses their mind members mind that many members of the pubuc mind that many members of the public at and public will look at this and say, well, the say, well, it's not the government's is causing the strike, doctors , strike, it's the junior doctors, and claim outrageous. and their claim is outrageous. i couldn't demand 35% rise. couldn't demand a 35% pay rise. i what i used to be i can't get what i used to be paid in 2008. why should they? and them will feel as i and many of them will feel as i do that doctors, any case, do that doctors, in any case, shouldn't strike. it's shouldn't strike. and it's a simple thing. it's one of those

jobs where when you when you sign up to do you understand sign up to do it, you understand that striking is not an option. so why are why they so why are they why are they now resorting to this method resorting to this to this method of getting a pay increase, which , if they did get it, much of which would pretty much be swallowed in inflation swallowed up in inflation anyway, can't the anyway, you can't reform the world it's world by pay increases. it's something people take time something that people take time to but it's undoubtedly to learn. but it's undoubtedly true . to learn. but it's undoubtedly tru> um, adrian is making the point about hypocrisy. of my point about hypocrisy. one of my viewers, he's saying that he thinks have a bit of an thinks mps have got a bit of an audacity. um, when comes audacity. he, um, when it comes to suppressing, wage to suppressing, uh, wage increases. adrian's calculated it back. he's saying that they've about a 40, uh, pay they've had about a 40, uh, pay increase. mps. so he's saying that there's a double standard there. >> i think that's right. and in addition to that, what peter is saying , i think addition to that, what peter is saying, i think this is addition to that, what peter is saying , i think this is a addition to that, what peter is saying, i think this is a really crucial point, which is many of these doctors are junior doctors are leaving health professionals are leaving health professionals are leaving health professionals are leaving the uk. we have a 45,000 shortfall of nurses, around 100,000 the nhs, around 100,000 in the nhs, generally speaking, are a member. good proposal member. a very good proposal from one day pm jobs who from maybe one day pm jobs who was careful what you wish was saying careful what you wish for who was a very

for, who said it was a very interesting proposal, which is to that you won't pay to say that you won't pay tuition won't have tuition fees, you won't have student get locked student debt, but you get locked in years, so. right. or we in ten years, so. right. or we can we discuss numbers. can we can discuss numbers. i think ten years seems reasonable. that very reasonable. um that seems very sensible to me. that's the kind of thing that i would like to see. you know, i don't support tuition debt. and see. you know, i don't support t|understand debt. and see. you know, i don't support t|understand that's debt. and see. you know, i don't support t|understand that's aiebt. and see. you know, i don't support t|understand that's a huge and i understand that's a huge debate, but i think we have to start with these guys because they're so critical to how this country course, country runs. and of course, they something in they have to give something in return, promising to stay return, like promising to stay in country and in the in the country and serving the for years. serving the nhs for ten years. >> i've never understood why >> but i've never understood why don't lock in that personnel don't we lock in that personnel into nhs? why into things like the nhs? why aren't physically , we're aren't you physically, if we're going train be a part going to train you to be a part of wonderful health of our wonderful health service when um, aren't when it works? um, why aren't you ? you have to be there. you you? you have to be there. you tied in via your contracts, whether it's via a loan repaid and some terms around that or whatever. >> i suppose it's because >> well, i suppose it's because it's country and we it's a free country and we haven't to resort to this haven't tended to resort to this kind of thing. we've tended to rely realising they've kind of thing. we've tended to rely given realising they've kind of thing. we've tended to rely given a realising they've kind of thing. we've tended to rely given a benefit ng they've kind of thing. we've tended to rely given a benefit by they've kind of thing. we've tended to rely given a benefit by getting been given a benefit by getting this valuable this extremely valuable training and, and that as a result, they have obligations as the. it's

true, the fewer obligations people have, the more you have to force them things by by to force them to do things by by making such rules. i'd be making such rules. but i'd be very sorry if we became the kind of which made that sort of country which made that sort of country which made that sort of rule. >> genoa. i'm just looking of rule. >>you genoa. i'm just looking of rule. >>you guys.)a. i'm just looking of rule. >>you guys.)awould jst looking of rule. >>you guys.)awould jst lthat1g at you guys. i would say that there a bag in terms of there is a mixed bag in terms of who i told you. i started the program with the viewer, so that was basically that she was basically saying that she completely, supports, was basically saying that she complet lee supports, was basically saying that she complet lee the supports, was basically saying that she complet lee the juniorports, um, uh, lee says the junior doctors are disgraceful . all doctors are disgraceful. all they keep mentioning their basic rate of pay essentially is what he's saying . rate of pay essentially is what he's saying. but of rate of pay essentially is what he's saying . but of course they he's saying. but of course they get lots of top ups and add ons for working nights, bank holidays, weekends, whatever for working nights, bank hcisiays, weekends, whatever for working nights, bank hcis .iys, weekends, whatever for working nights, bank hcis . he weekends, whatever for working nights, bank hcis . he sayszends, whatever for working nights, bank hcis . he says hejs, whatever for working nights, bank hcis . he says he regards1atever for working nights, bank hcis . he says he regards them r it is. he says he regards them as spoilt brats. that's a bit harsh. uh bridget says i would have more respect for the strikes if they were holding the government to ransom an government to ransom over an overhaul service , but overhaul of the service, but to demand money for their job demand just money for their job in the nhs . she says it's in the nhs. she says it's absolutely abhorrent . why did absolutely abhorrent. why did they join the nhs if it wasn't to try and make things better for everybody again ? that echoed for everybody again? that echoed by lorraine saying that the junior doctors are not taking

things out on the government, they're taking them out on us, they're taking them out on us, the vulnerable, the sick, the frail, she frail, their patients. uh, she says, i've lost respect for the junior doctors. they should not ever strike which side of the fence are you on and where is your limits ? do you think that your limits? do you think that that 35% or there or thereabouts is reasonable? and what would happen going forward to the other professions , if that was other professions, if that was indeed granted to the junior doctors? and would afford doctors? and how would we afford all you get in touch all of this? you get in touch and after the break, and you tell me after the break, and you tell me after the break, a that's got many of you a man that's got many of you talking already turn me blair. you he up everywhere, you know, he pops up everywhere, doesn't he? well, now there's been that was very been rumours that he was very quick dismiss. have to say, quick to dismiss. i have to say, about a potential involvement in the conflict . the israel gaza conflict. tensions in middle east tensions in the middle east really are escalating. should tony blair be anywhere near, uh, foreign conflict in any capacity? you tell me

radio show. >> earlier with eamonn and isabel junior doctors across england have begun the longest

ever nhs strike, which is going to and the to last six days, and the government this on their government have this on their side where they about side where they talk about budgets talk budgets and they talk about figures they at you and figures and they look at you and they greedy , greedy, greedy. they say greedy, greedy, greedy. >> keep striking >> we're going to keep striking until a credible offer until we get a credible offer that we're able to put to our members . and members accept members. and our members accept it's story, isn't it? it's one story, isn't it? >> luke littler, 16 old >> luke littler, 16 year old darts prodigy. i've never >> luke littler, 16 year old darts prodigy . i've never seen >> luke littler, 16 year old daimuch digy. i've never seen >> luke littler, 16 year old daimuch interest/e never seen >> luke littler, 16 year old daimuch interest in never seen >> luke littler, 16 year old daimuch interest in aever seen >> luke littler, 16 year old daimuch interest in a dartszen so much interest in a darts world tonight. he plays world final as tonight. he plays luke humphries. >> i've introduced , uh, his >> i've also introduced, uh, his own kebab. he's called a luke luke special . i'll wrap. own kebab. he's called a luke luke special. i'll wrap. i think it is. >> imagine if we had storm cooper today. storm shepherd , cooper today. storm shepherd, we've got storm eamonn instead . we've got storm eamonn instead. storm storm a lot of rubbish. breakfast with eamonn and isabel i >> -- >> hello there. welcome back. michelle dewberry seven. the columnist for the daily mail, peter hitchens and the co—founder of novara media, aaron bastani. alongside me, the con , the conversation about the con, the conversation about the junior doctor strikes continues

to rumble on and does divide you guys at home. keep your thoughts on that one coming in. but for now, i shall move on because now, uh, i shall move on because there lot happening there is an awful lot happening in and around the middle east. you some of you might have seen some of that, uh, updates in our news bulletin. um, also as well, you'll be familiar with the fact that deputy leader that hamas deputy leader apparently was killed an air apparently was killed in an air strike. sure anyone has strike. i'm not sure anyone has currently claimed responsibility for that. but notwithstanding it, tensions are bubbling and bubbling. none other than tony blair may many of you, some of the emails i cannot read out to you guys at this time of the day, but tony blair now, there were suggestions that perhaps he was going to be playing some kind the israel—gaza kind of role in the israel—gaza conflict, particularly around helping gazans leave gaza . i helping gazans leave gaza. i have to say that was very quickly dismissed by the tony blair institute. it was said that that was basically a lie and wasn't happening at all. there's a lot to unpick here. uh, we'll get into the aspects of middle east and what's of the middle east and what's potentially going to happen there. the consequences and there. and the consequences and how should be.

how involved the uk should be. but now, blair, should but for now, tony blair, should he anywhere , uh, in any he be anywhere, uh, in any level, any capacity involved in foreign should be foreign conflict, he should be entering a trappist monastery where he vows never to say another word again for the rest of his life, and spends his time praying for forgiveness. >> i don't really see that somebody who made such a complete mess of his main foreign policy adventure should be seriously ever again, be taken seriously ever again, or should be asked for his advice, or should be treated as if it was an important player in any of these matters. time for him to fall silent for good. the middle east is littered with corpses and columns of refugees who still walk across it. thanks to the war that he and george w bush created . and i just don't bush created. and i just don't think there's anything further to be said by him or honesty about him. he's done for. he's he's he did a terrible thing and he's he did a terrible thing and he should be sorry for it. and he should be sorry for it. and he should be sorry for it somewhere else in silence. and the same really should go for

his propaganda chief, alastair campbell. both of them really. i'm amazed that they both feel able to offer opinions on anything important anymore. >> do you share that view or a different view? >> no, i entirely agree with that. in that. and i'd also add, in addition that, um, tony blair, of course, is in charge. he doesn't receive a salary. i should add, of the tony blair institute large year record revenues . this will institute large year record revenues. this will make your jaw drop $140 million. i know $140 million. big, big business. thousands of employees and their revenue from overseas governments increased . by 50. governments increased. by 50. we're talking bahrain, the uae, saudi arabia . and so when blair saudi arabia. and so when blair is in the middle east, i like to say west asia because it's a sort of bigger, bigger area that we're talking about, really, when tony blair is in that part of the world. i would put a question to people watching this, listening, who's interests is he representing ? britain's is he representing? britain's his own . the tony blair his own. the tony blair institute, because like i say, this is somebody now who looks at conflict, governance and

policy as business as an opportunity for him to get status for his organisation to make money. um, and i think that's a really important way of looking at this. and also by the way, just in addition to that , way, just in addition to that, under a potential labour government, the tony blair institute may end up being the most influential think tank in this why well, because this country. why well, because the institute is just very the blair institute is just very close to the labour right ? if close to the labour right? if you at a labour party you were at a labour party conference earlier this year, you would have seen number you would have seen a number of panels where you had a labour right. member. okay. the right. leading member. okay. the less part the less left wing part of the labour party , the right wing or labour party, the right wing or the left wing. labour party, the right wing or the yes wing. labour party, the right wing or the yes .ning. labour party, the right wing or the yes . there was not there was >> yes. there was not there was not a right . not a labour right. >> think that's i think >> well i think that's i think hasn't been years. i think hasn't been for years. i think there's oh i think there's a. oh well i think that's a useful formulation. but we agree to we can, we can agree to disagree. point there disagree. the point is there is a certain fact that there a certain fact true that there is faction of the is a certain faction of the labour which very labour party, which is very close the tony close to the tony blair institute. shadow institute. people in the shadow cabinet. deeply cabinet. and i am deeply concerned that there would be a think tank so influential over uk foreign policy, uk policy and foreign policy, which takes such extraordinary

sums from overseas governments , sums from overseas governments, and the reason why there is a wider issue . let me just finish wider issue. let me just finish one thing here. imagine if there was organisation with $140 was an organisation with $140 million revenues and it was being by overseas being funded by overseas governments, and it supported brexit, supported left brexit, or it supported left wing , we would hear no wing causes, we would hear no end of it . james o'brien on lbc end of it. james o'brien on lbc would be having his daily aneurism every day of the week. but because it's the tony blair institute, nobody says anything, then tony trying then says tony blair, trying to negotiate peace negotiate middle eastern peace is putting fawkes is like putting guy fawkes in charge annual house of charge of the annual house of parliament firework day display. >> dave says michel, i can't believe you're talking about this man. he should be in the tower for war crimes. i've got tower for war crimes. i've got to say , uh, is there are there to say, uh, is there are there anybody out there that actually thinks that this is quite a good scenario ? graham says. well, as scenario? graham says. well, as long as he's not committing to the uk, the uk to things without the uk, the uk to things without the backing of his country or promising things beyond his remit, i no problem with remit, i have no problem with anyone trying resolve issues remit, i have no problem with any(findrying resolve issues remit, i have no problem with any(find peace. resolve issues remit, i have no problem with any(find peace. itasolve issues remit, i have no problem with any(find peace. it cannot ssues remit, i have no problem with any(find peace. it cannot hurt; and find peace. it cannot hurt and find peace. it cannot hurt and uh, then surely and if it helps, uh, then surely it's a win win, says graham.

juue it's a win win, says graham. julie says if tony blair can bnng julie says if tony blair can bring peace to the situation in the middle east, then it is a good thing. despite what people may him past may think of him from his past history, it's about collectively bringing peaceful bringing to a peaceful conclusion a very different situation . situation. >> why anybody think that >> why should anybody think that he to that? he he was qualified to do that? he has there is there is no reason to believe that he's qualified to believe that he's qualified to do that. on the one occasion where he had to choose between to do that. on the one occasion where and|ad to choose between to do that. on the one occasion where and war:o choose between to do that. on the one occasion where and war and oose between to do that. on the one occasion where and war and where etween to do that. on the one occasion where and war and where itneen to do that. on the one occasion where and war and where it was| peace and war and where it was pretty that that an pretty obvious that that an awful people thought war awful lot of people thought war was inadvisable , he was extremely inadvisable, he pursued vigour the pursued with immense vigour the course war and that's what he course of war and that's what he favoured. and it was a war that he didn't even need to join. the americans actually told him it's all if you can't get the all right if you can't get the support of your people in your parliament, you can stay out. and he still carried on wanting to it. this was a who to do it. this was a man who wanted war. the issue in to do it. this was a man who wan'isi war. the issue in to do it. this was a man who wan'is there the issue in to do it. this was a man who wan'is there used issue in to do it. this was a man who wan'is there used to issue in to do it. this was a man who wan'is there used to be ssue in to do it. this was a man who wan'is there used to be aue in to do it. this was a man who wan'is there used to be a time this is there used to be a time when politicians, when they ended careers, ended their political careers, went life. in went out of public life. in fact, truman, the fact, when harry truman, the president the united president of the united states, he nothing to live on except he had nothing to live on except his from the first his army pension from the first world war, and they get world war, and they had to get

up fund to create a, up a special fund to create a, a, a pension for the for the president of the united states, who don't think who previously, i don't think had got one. now every single president out president who goes out of office, prime who office, every prime minister who goes is goes out of office is immediately surrounded by people waving money at them and setting up these instant suits and other bodies and going around the world making speeches and becoming influential. now, what is the actual outcome of this in politics? if someone during a political career, when they're paid a not particularly big but substantial by most people , same substantial by most people, same salary for doing their job, what if what they're really worrying aboutis if what they're really worrying about is how much money they'll make when they leave the job? and that most prime and given that most prime ministers presidents ministers and presidents nowadays their nowadays seem to leave their jobs quite young , aren't we jobs quite young, aren't we entitled to worry about where all this money is coming from and whether it is in fact implement the whether it's in fact influencing their implementation and implementation of policy and their acts in government before they get this money. they're already wondering what they're going get in this magical going to get in this magical world of , of post of post office

world of, of post of post office statesmanship where they all become rich. i think it's a very serious problem. and it must influence their behaviour . i influence their behaviour. i think it should be examined much more closely and actually i think it should stop. >> what do you think? i mean, when we talk about ex pms and all rest of it making a lot all the rest of it making a lot of money, i always think about liz days all of liz truss 40 odd days and all of the of fruits that she will the kind of fruits that she will go on enjoy anyway , back to go on to enjoy anyway, back to the middle east. you know , the middle east. you know, things really are tensions there really are inflaming you. you don't mind me saying you're part iranian? um how concerned are you about things at the moment? >> i we could be >> i think we could be sleepwalking something sleepwalking into something really and one of the really serious and one of the count histories of the last 30 years, which people don't really think about, is that of course, we've had failed states war across west asia, central asia, bits of north africa . but it bits of north africa. but it hasn't been that big. so we've had a failed state in libya. it's only a couple of million people. afghanistan very far away, a large country, people. afghanistan very far awathe a large country, people. afghanistan very far awathe prospect large country, people. afghanistan very far awathe prospect of rge country, people. afghanistan very far awathe prospect of ae country, people. afghanistan very far awathe prospect of a failedtry, but the prospect of a failed

state egypt between state in iran or egypt between them, that's 200 million people. if you're worried about refugees coming to europe, displaced people, that's lot of people. people, that's a lot of people. and i that that prospect, and i think that that prospect, it's likely , but it's it's not likely, but it's possible. i don't think people are alive to it . and i think are alive to it. and i think there are certain politicians out who'd cheering on out there who'd be cheering on or figures, media or political figures, media figures, who'll figures, whatever, who'll be cheering on. let's go war cheering on. let's go to war with iran, iran . and then with iran, nuke iran. and then when tens millions when you have tens of millions of coming europe , of people coming to europe, which what happen, they which is what would happen, they would let them which is what would happen, they worwe've let them which is what would happen, they worwe've done let them which is what would happen, they worwe've done nothing.et them which is what would happen, they worwe've done nothing wrong.1 which is what would happen, they worwe've done nothing wrong. we in. we've done nothing wrong. we have volatility in have enough chaos, volatility in the world having to go the world without having to go around more. and i think around causing more. and i think that tread very that we need to tread very carefully with this. that doesn't mean you do everything iran says, but have to start iran says, but you have to start with question, with a very simple question, which what is britain's which is what is britain's interest in west asia, and what is strategy ? i don't know is our strategy? i don't know what our strategy in west asia is, and i don't know how our interests being represented is, and i don't know how our interenow being represented is, and i don't know how our interenow is, being represented is, and i don't know how our interenow is, oh,|g represented is, and i don't know how our interenow is, oh, theepresented is, and i don't know how our interenow is, oh, the white |ted right now is, oh, the white house wants to bomb some people. right now is, oh, the white housegoants to bomb some people. right now is, oh, the white housego bomb bomb some people. right now is, oh, the white housego bomb them, some people. right now is, oh, the white housego bomb them, too.|e people. right now is, oh, the white housego bomb them, too. i people. right now is, oh, the white housego bomb them, too. i don'tle. we'll go bomb them, too. i don't think that's good enough. and finally, you know, the united states is very because states is very lucky because

it's insulated by two giant oceans. when they make screw ups in middle east. europe is in the middle east. europe is the one that has to pay the displaced people. come here. the energy inflation comes here. the us they export gas to us is fine. they export gas to europe. they're loving it . so europe. they're loving it. so these are really serious times and questions for people right across europe including britain . across europe including britain. and i think we should not write off the possibility of war. now i don't think we'll go to war with iran. there is not a world war, but we are increasingly a world at war. and that's going to serious consequences. to have serious consequences. >> do you agree? >> do you agree? >> yes. i think it's >> largely, yes. i think it's that's more or less right. i am astonished i know little about the middle east. i've travelled there bit. i don't claim to there a bit. i don't claim to any special knowledge, but i am absolutely astonished the abu absolutely astonished by the abu science knowledge. indeed science of knowledge. indeed positive ignorance of almost every political statement made by by most political figures in the west about it. people who before iraq didn't know the difference between between a shia and sunni muslim. people shia and a sunni muslim. people who nothing of the history who know nothing of the history of iran. people in this country,

for not know that for instance, do not know that in 1953 we overthrew the legitimate government of iran in pursuit of our own oil interests, something which is still hugely resented. there and in my view, quite rightly . and in my view, quite rightly. and this isn't some kind of conspiracy theory fantasy. the details of it are available at the george washington university in the american capital. the cia have released the details of this putsch, which was organised by a man who later became a british conservative mp monty woodhouse, and by the grandson of theodore roosevelt, president of theodore roosevelt, president of the united states . a man of the united states. a man called kermit roosevelt who actually, actually arranged and organised this thing and overthrew mohammed mossadegh , overthrew mohammed mossadegh, who was iran's legitimate prime minister, purely in pursuit of oil revenue. and this shocking thing still influenced his obviously hugely the iranian attitude towards this country. and the west. and if you don't even begin to know things like this or that, the immense resentment in iran over what they call the imposed war when

they call the imposed war when the west encouraged saddam hussein to attack iran in a in a war which was for them very like the first world war was for us, the first world war was for us, the cemeteries outside iran of the cemeteries outside iran of the war dead are appallingly huge. it's we don't and we just speak of iran as a bogeyman. i don't like the rulers of iran any more than anybody else does. but we have to remember this is a serious country with a lot of people in it who would be sympathetic if they sympathetic to the west if they were for whom were given the chance for whom were given the chance for whom we of indeed. we make enemies of indeed. >> let me ask you, how concerned are you about matters in are you about what matters in the east? something the middle east? is it something on aaron's on your radar? and to aaron's point, think the point, what do you think the british strategy is? do you think we have one? have we got the right people in charge and the right people in charge and the next potential government, perhaps sir keir starmer, would he better job perhaps sir keir starmer, would he betterjob in perhaps sir keir starmer, would he better job in your he do a betterjob in your mind when to managing when it comes to managing foreign conflicts or not? and speaking of labour, the shadow chancellor, reeves, chancellor, rachel reeves, she has been out saying has been speaking out saying that actually is on the that actually labour is on the side of aspiration and opposition unity. yes. is it you tell me

>> in 2024. gb news is britain's

election . channel. election. channel. >> hi there , michel g brit >> hi there, michel g brit school seven. columnist for the daily mail peter hitchens and the co—founder of novara media aaron bastani alongside me. i can tell that tony blair can tell you now that tony blair conversation a lot conversation has sparked a lot of debate with you guys at home. if somebody who thinks, if you were somebody who thinks, actually, what harm can tony blair he can create peace, blair do if he can create peace, why not let what do you say why not let him? what do you say then, to, uh, peter's point when he was saying, well, what what in tony blair gives you that kind confidence that is kind of confidence that he is indeed create that indeed the man to create that peace? uh, know your peace? uh, let me know your counter view that. counter view to that. uh, anyway, talk anyway, for now, let's talk labuschagne rachel the labuschagne we rachel reeves the shadow chancellor, she is basically that it's basically saying that it's labour on the side of labour that is on the side of hard working people operate opportunity aspiration. apparently they're considering things like cutting income taxes , uh, and or national insurance to prove that point. our labour the party for aspiration. aaron i think it's the completely wrong conversation . wrong conversation. >> ian. um, i, i, i actually

think the middle class should have a tax cut. income tax cut? i'm probably quite rare on the left for saying that. >> do call a middle class? >> uh, anybody between , say, 25 >> uh, anybody between, say, 25 and 75. that's huge, isn't it? >> it's quite a it's the middle spectrum. >> that's the middle of the country. i think broadly speaking, they are squeezed right now between high interest rates, pensions. rates, high taxes, pensions. obviously loans being obviously student loans being paid back. i think, you know, they at pay packet they look at their pay packet and that good. they look at their pay packet and i'm that good. they look at their pay packet and i'm surprisedi. they look at their pay packet and i'm surprised that you >> but i'm surprised that you would that someone that's would say that someone that's below the average this below the average wage in this country class. well country is middle class. well are odd a are you earning 20 odd grand a year? know, 25? year? i don't know, 25? >> you might be in an >> no, but you might be in an industry where there might be entering where entering an industry where they'll be on 75 within ten years. i mean, that's what i mean, so 35 to 75. mean, right? so say 35 to 75. that's sort of big middle bracket middle class professionals. bracket middle class prcandionals. bracket middle class prc and they 5. bracket middle class prc and they are bracket middle class prcand they are quite squeezed. is, and they are quite squeezed. the point is where does the money come from? for money come from? so for instance, the tories want to scrap the inheritance tax. you can disagree that. can agree or disagree with that. but it's to but the point is it's going to cost billion. so where's that cost 7 billion. so where's that cash come me. cash going to come from? for me. see slightly we've had see i would slightly we've had this perhaps

this discussion before. perhaps i increase i would slightly increase capital i would reduce i would slightly increase capital tax i would reduce i would slightly increase capital tax and i would reduce i would slightly increase capital tax and vatvould reduce i would slightly increase capital tax and vat becauseiuce income tax and vat because i think that would help the real economy. help economy. i think it would help the street small the high street and small businesses. debates we businesses. there's debates we had however, going had around that. however, going back i initially said back to what i initially said about the party of aspiration, i think people might think labour and people might not think labour not like this. i think labour need to be thinking, i think this is in such a sticky this country is in such a sticky situation right now. need situation right now. they need to be thinking almost like a developing country. big developing country. two big national cheap energy, developing country. two big nation housing. cheap energy, developing country. two big nation housing. howheap energy, developing country. two big nation housing. how are) energy, developing country. two big nation housing. how are youergy, developing country. two big nation housing. how are you going cheap housing. how are you going to do it? that matters more to me cut here. this me than tax cut here. this there, this there as much as i do think, like i say, that the middle country, middle middle of this country, middle britain , should probably be britain, should probably be paying britain, should probably be paying a little less income tax. >> you know , you can't cut tax >> you know, you can't cut tax significantly. any kind of tax, any amount of tax in a way which will affect most people unless you cut spending . and to cut you cut spending. and to cut spending, you have to change fundamentally the policies of the government. it's to some extent you can't cut it at all for a very long time because so much spending is actually in people. people realise people. if people realise this, they'd angry they they'd get very angry if they realise the money came out

realise when the money came out of packet pay , of their wage packet with pay, that a lot of it was going to pay that a lot of it was going to pay interest on government debt, they cross that they would get so cross that they would get so cross that they wouldn't pay . but they probably wouldn't pay. but people large unaware people by and large are unaware of their money is going. of where their money is going. but as much our money is but as so much of our money is going that at the moment, going on, that at the moment, it's quite shocking. size of it's quite shocking. the size of the welfare state. and a lot of thatis the welfare state. and a lot of that is things which people support, such as old age pensions , is gigantic and pensions, is gigantic and swallows up the entire product of income any of the income tax without any difficulty at all. you've then got like vat and fuel got things like vat and fuel duty, the other things which duty, and the other things which which the national which feed into the national insurance, is which isn't insurance, which is which isn't a in everything but name. a tax in everything but name. these things are colossal because the spending of government on every aspect of life is colossal. and one of the reasons for this is we've gone for a series of policies which require those levels of spending, particularly the replacement married replacement of the married family by the state in all kinds of of life, and also the of areas of life, and also the decision that we would have a directly central government financed health and make financed health service and make a do these a religion of it. we do these things and we have to pay for

them. unless you have several fundamental and quite shocking changes in the way in which we spend money, you can't reduce tax in any significant every time allegedly conservative time a allegedly conservative government comes office and says , we're going to cut tax and say, well, are going to say, well, how are you going to cut unless change cut it? unless you change policies? they policies? and in fact, they don't they one tax. the don't. they cut one tax. the bafic don't. they cut one tax. the basic rate of income tax is now virtually frozen. but what do they they create a the they do. they they create a the higher rate of income tax which used to be imposed on really quite well off people now kicks in in the incomes of far from well—off people. and this happens all the time through what's called fiscal drag tax rates, were designed for rates, which were designed for rich people and are now imposed on the middle class and end up even imposed actually even being imposed on actually poor to poor people. it's grotesque to talk tax cuts. if you won't talk of tax cuts. if you won't discuss spending cuts, and if you're going spending you're going to discuss spending cuts, to be very honest cuts, you have to be very honest about you're going to about what it is you're going to stop we now do stop doing that. we now do because that because you don't have all that much for manoeuvre, much room for manoeuvre, especially huge debts especially given the huge debts on we have to quite on which we have to pay quite high interest now . high interest now. >> very peculiar.

>> yeah, it's very peculiar. when i hear i think we've got ourselves in such right ourselves in such a muddle right now traditional what now in terms of traditional what was traditionally labour, it was traditionally tories. when traditionally the tories. when you've party you've got the labour party saying, right, it's ours, we're going the that's going to be the ones that's going to be the ones that's going actually your going to actually cut your taxes. we're going to be the ones that stand for aspiration and all the of it. and then and all the rest of it. and then you've the tories that are you've got the tories that are hiking taxes like you say, hiking taxes or like you say, pulling people the pulling more people into the higher with higher tax bands with their thresholds all gone thresholds. uh, it's all gone kind sixes and sevens. do you kind of sixes and sevens. do you think traditional think those traditional definitions of the definitions of what the two parties supposed to be, are parties are supposed to be, are they? is that for the beds now ? they? is that for the beds now? >> oh, i think they've converged into sort of uni party. and into the sort of uni party. and i think depending on, you know, sort of which month it is, they say do surprise you say things that do surprise you on the, on the aspiration thing. you know, if i look at my paycheque at the end of the month, a lot goes into my pension. good i'm going to need that one a lot into that one day. a lot goes into student loans . um, and then student loans. um, and then i look at my mortgage. obviously interest rate hikes have really hit me. we've got a young child childcare's so, hit me. we've got a young child chil know, ; so,

hit me. we've got a young child chil know, there so, hit me. we've got a young child chil know, there are so, hit me. we've got a young child chilknow, there are so so, hit me. we've got a young child chilknow, there are so many), you know, there are so many things which are very expensive. child housing, child care, energy, housing, student . you know, if you student loans. you know, if you it's like what the tories did earlier year or at the earlier this year or at the beginning of this year. it's still come. of course, still yet to come. of course, the insurance the national insurance contributions, i think if you're on a year, you'll contributions, i think if you're on paying a year, you'll contributions, i think if you're on paying around a year, you'll contributions, i think if you're on paying around £30 ear, you'll contributions, i think if you're on paying around £30 ea monthl be paying around £30 a month less. sounds great until you realise the same person is paying realise the same person is paying month more on paying £500 a month more on their i think just their mortgage. so i think just this emphasis on tax, if we're going about aspiration, going to talk about aspiration, people energy , people doing well, energy, housing, childcare, has to housing, childcare, all has to come into it. and finally , come into it. and finally, peter's right to say that there are so many challenges that can look overwhelming . and that's look overwhelming. and that's why think a government should why i think a government should really just focus on 2 or 3 things. you know, i believe in pubuc things. you know, i believe in public ownership, but actually, if said, if labour came in and said, we're just to bring we're just going to bring rail into and we're we're just going to bring rail into to and we're we're just going to bring rail into to do and we're we're just going to bring rail into to do it and we're we're just going to bring rail into to do it really and we're we're just going to bring rail into to do it really well, we're we're just going to bring rail into to do it really well, i'd 're going to do it really well, i'd be happy. be very happy. >> well, i'll tell you, it was happy the moment. of happy at the moment. uh, one of my viewers, mark, he says, peter hitchens, my big hitchens, you are my big friendly speak, friendly giant. when you speak, i'll hug with i'll listen. you hug me with every single that's what every single word. that's what mark . phillips also happy. mark says. phillips also happy. he your guests tonight he says, your two guests tonight are wonderfully

are absolutely, wonderfully knowledgeable. i am in awe of them both . oh. bless you. there them both. oh. bless you. there you go. you're making the viewers nation very viewers across the nation very happy i happy tonight, gents. i appreciate after the appreciate it. now after the break, tell you what's break, i'll tell you what's not making happy. post making you guys happy. the post office scandal. have you been watching drama? the office scandal. have you been watch part drama? the office scandal. have you been watch part of drama? the office scandal. have you been watch part of disna? the office scandal. have you been watch part of dis it's the office scandal. have you been watch part of dis it's based e worst part of it is it's based on a story. uh people, the on a true story. uh people, the subpostmasters had their lives absolutely destroyed . let me ask absolutely destroyed. let me ask you a simple question. do you think anyone truly is being held accountable for what was done to those people? not, what those people? if not, what should happen you

hello there. michelle dewberry with you till 7:00. columnist for the daily mail, peter hitchens and the co—founder of novara media, aaron bastani alongside me. right. let me ask you this. have you been spending your watching that your evenings watching that drama on, on itv about drama series on, on itv about the post office , the it scandal, the post office, the it scandal, which is a, of course, the honzon which is a, of course, the horizon system ? i've been horizon system? i've been watching it and it's absolutely mind blowing that those kind of

things could have happened in recent this country . be recent years in this country. be familiar, with the familiar, perhaps with the story. sure , for so many story. i am sure, for so many now, uh, in person, i have to stress that word. subpostmasters they were basically having ran their post offices for many, many cases, know, many years in cases, you know, healthy , uh, bank balances. all healthy, uh, bank balances. all of a sudden they had this, uh, healthy, uh, bank balances. all of systemzn they had this, uh, healthy, uh, bank balances. all of system installedid this, uh, healthy, uh, bank balances. all of system installed and is, uh, healthy, uh, bank balances. all of system installed and them, healthy, uh, bank balances. all of system installed and then it it system installed and then it was basically them finding themselves accused of theft, fraud , false accounting, you fraud, false accounting, you name it. there people name it. there were people chucked was chucked into prison. there was one lady on the first episode. you might have seen that story. she was subjected to electric shock system. horrible uh, it was just absolutely scandalous. people lost their marriages. they lost their sanity . in some they lost their sanity. in some cases, they went bankrupt. as i said, they were sent to prison . said, they were sent to prison. you've been watching this, peter . uh, what do you make to all this ? this? >> i think it was probably the best television i've seen for several years. uh, it s partly because it is so beautifully done and so beautifully acted and casted and so convincing .

and casted and so convincing. and also because it's absolutely true . and what it reveals is true. and what it reveals is that this hideous thing which was done to innocent people by gigantic corporation is still , gigantic corporation is still, well, in my view, unresolved that it's probably impossible to provide restitution for the things which were done to these people, the ruination of their lives , the destruction of their lives, the destruction of their reputations, the years eaten by the locust , the general wreckage the locust, the general wreckage which was done by, i don't know for what reason, but i do we do know it was done, but seeing it in this form and acted in this superb way by people who really put their back into it, beautifully scripted as well . beautifully scripted as well. it's made very easy for the rest of us to see that there is something remaining to be done here. i, i found myself becoming quite angry on several occasions and thinking, surely somebody should pay this. and i do. should pay for this. and i do. i not generally much of a vengeance person. vengeance person. >> vengeance person. >> i was going to say that for

me, this is me, not for more than a few minutes, but on this occasion i really do feel that that somebody i don't know who i'm not suggesting who, but somebody ought to pay for this in important way , because in some important way, because it it cannot be no , no major it you it cannot be no, no major corporation or power or government should ever think in future that they could treat people like this and get away with it. well, paula vennells, she actually got, um, was it a cbe? cbe? she cbe? was it a cbe? she got i can't remember, but people i know she did not i'm not going to necessarily parts it to necessarily in parts of it that she, she, she that i've seen she, she, she actually comes out of it better than had thought that she would. >> but there was something going on here in which people who would, who were doing an honest job were put into job were were put into a position of terrible ol disgrace and danger and, and ruin . and and danger and, and ruin. and those people who should have helped them get out of it did the opposite. aaron i've not had the opposite. aaron i've not had the pleasure of watching this yet, but you know the story. >> it's good. very familiar >> it's good. i'm very familiar with a news story. i should with as a news story. i should be clear. it's good to see

be clear. yeah, it's good to see something being produced be clear. yeah, it's good to see soritv|ing being produced be clear. yeah, it's good to see soritv be| being produced be clear. yeah, it's good to see soritv be doing being produced be clear. yeah, it's good to see soritv be doing sozing produced be clear. yeah, it's good to see soritv be doing so well)roduced be clear. yeah, it's good to see soritv be doing so well ratherzd by itv be doing so well rather than tv and than netflix and apple tv and whatnot. peter was saying, whatnot. um peter was saying, you know, somebody should be to blame here. i think what's, what's quite clear is that you have auditors , um, whose have auditors, um, whose responsibility to ensure that responsibility is to ensure that the facts are the facts . um, who the facts are the facts. um, who didn't ask a simple question, which is to say , is this it which is to say, is this it system capable of being wrong, yes or no ? yes or no? >> old it systems are capable of being quite , quite all of them. being quite, quite all of them. that's why i used to do for a living. i used to do business transformation centred around it systems quite all of them have it them. it in them. >> w- it in them. >> this obviously >> quite. and this obviously this was raised this question was raised implicitly um, implicitly and explicitly. um, and, and auditors don't seem to have countenanced that possibility. you also have certain instances people, you certain instances of people, you know witness statements know, signing witness statements in regards to individuals affected by this making the individuals claim erroneous assertions, um, to cover their tracks, to set an example because they didn't want to accept the possibility that the it system itself was was at

fault. so i think the auditors have big questions to answer. of course, when they've been asked , course, when they've been asked, they say they can't recount this or that, or they can't recall a particular instance of something, but i, i think, look, this is what auditors exist for. something has clearly gone wrong. and if somebody's to blame, i, i think they should give an explanation as to why it's not them. >> uh, lots of getting in >> uh, lots of you getting in touch on this one, dean says michelle, you're what michelle, you're asking what should happen next. >> bosses at the post office >> the bosses at the post office at the time should be in jail, he says that that he says. um, he says that that might some way making it might go some way to making it better. uh, says, please, might go some way to making it bettyoulh, says, please, might go some way to making it bettyoulh, a says, please, might go some way to making it bettyoulh, a point,)lease, might go some way to making it bettyoulh, a point, michelle, can you make a point, michelle, that many feelings running that many feelings are running high but high about the post office, but please, ask that people please, can you ask that people don't start boycotting don't randomly start boycotting their post office? uh, their local post office? uh, that would make surely if they've got one. well, yeah . they've got one. well, yeah. good point. actually, i also just closed down actually. um, yes. says michelle. you're yes. steve says michelle. you're right. uh, paula was given a cbe in the honours list . it should in the honours list. it should be withdrawn . uh, as the very be withdrawn. uh, as the very least, that should happen. you know, one of my views as well,

richard, he's just got in touch with me. interestingly enough, he he was he says that he was a subpostmaster for 15 years, and he says he can confirm having watched that documentary , the watched that documentary, the drama. it is drama. sorry, that it is absolutely accurate. he absolutely accurate. um, he says, i remember watching the parliamentary inquiry in in 2015 and absolutely seething , uh, and absolutely seething, uh, many people. richard again, a different richard saying that mr bates should be knighted. uh, what about , bates should be knighted. uh, what about, uh, ed davey says alex. why isn't he being, uh, head held accountable? i mean , head held accountable? i mean, so many people here, the inquiry hopefully will find people guilty of criminality . guilty of criminality. >> the thing, michelle, which those of us who've watched it will remember, which is what was repeatedly said to those who complained . you're the only one complained. you're the only one who's complaining. yeah. and we get this. anyone who's ever been in any kind of tussle with a large corporation or an official body have told this by body will have been told this by somebody . my brother always somebody. my late brother always had tremendous response to had a tremendous response to that. when anybody told him, he said be able to said, well, he won't be able to

say again. now will you? say that again. now will you? and true, it's also and it's true, but it's also it's almost invariably a lie when you're told it. and i think if there's thing if there's one thing that anybody who sees this will anybody who, who sees this will learn from it is that they, they may well not be the only person who's being treated in this fashion, and therefore they should seek help. and now, actually, of advantages actually, one of the advantages of they can of the internet is they can these people didn't really have it. >> there's a for some of >> there's a word for some of this gaslighting this stuff. gaslighting isn't it? when you it? and if actually when you listen some of these people's listen to some of these people's stories, were literally stories, they were literally going around the bend because they good, they knew that they were good, honest, citizens. you honest, decent citizens. you tell me, what do you think should happen next? stripping should happen next? a stripping of paula vennells honour is something that's coming through thick and fast from you guys. i'll let you ponder for i'll let you ponder it for tonight. aaron, thank you tonight. uh, aaron, thank you very for your company. uh, very much for your company. uh, peter, too. viewers peter, for yours too. viewers are much enjoyed it are very much enjoyed it tonight. have a good evening. don't go anywhere. nigel farage up a brighter up next. tonight's a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsor of on . gb news. of weather on. gb news. >> good evening, i'm alex

deakin. this is your latest weather update from the met office for gb news tomorrow for most places, a dry and a bright day. a few scattered showers, but potential for some very but the potential for some very wet weather across the far south. storm henk is disappearing away to the east, but this little weather front is going generate some wet going to generate some wet weather across the south. tomorrow still got low pressure up to the north of scotland as well. plenty of showers packing in evening. a in here this evening. quite a wet across eastern wet evening across eastern scotland, elsewhere the scotland, but elsewhere the weather turning drier . weather is turning a bit drier. plenty across plenty of showers still across northwest england. of course any extra rain falling because it's been so wet could cause some further issues. temperatures mostly holding up a few degrees above freezing. start above freezing. bright start then midlands , south then across the midlands, south wales indeed the south east wales and indeed the south east of england to elsewhere. quite a bit of cloud. some showers still over england and over northwest england and northern of scotland, northern parts of scotland, but down the south we are looking down to the south we are looking at this next area of rain coming in, some uncertainty about how quickly of quickly it gets in, but parts of devon somerset may well turn devon and somerset may well turn wet lunchtime and then that wet by lunchtime and then that rain likely to spread up towards

the the it the southeast during the day. it could and of could be quite heavy. and of course, because it's course, again because it's falling saturated ground , falling onto saturated ground, likely some issues , it likely to cause some issues, it may be a little bit further north, may be a little bit further for south many, though, it and bright through it stays dry and bright through thursday some sunny spells thursday with some sunny spells and little above and temperatures a little above average. rain should scoot average. that rain should scoot away on friday, then we're left with a few showers, but the weather turning drier and weather is turning drier and calmer the weekend, but calmer through the weekend, but also go a bit colder. goodbye looks like things are heating up by boxt boilers sponsors of weather on .

gb news. >> good evening. as junior doctors go on, a six day strike,

the longest in the history of the longest in the history of the national health service, i asked the simple question should they doing because i don't they be doing it because i don't think should. what think they should. what a sensation he is. luke littler , sensation he is. luke littler, 16 years old. odds on 16 years old. he's odds on favourite to win the world darts championship . tonight we'll go championship. tonight we'll go live to alexandra palace and the war on the motorist hmm'hmm . war on the motorist hmm'hmm. we've discovered that about half of tory backbenchers are founded by net zero billionaires. what doesit by net zero billionaires. what does it all mean? all of that coming up in a couple of seconds. first, let's get the news with sophia wenzler . news with sophia wenzler. >> thank you. nigel, i'm sophia wenzler in the gb news room and other yellow weather warning for heavy rain is on its way for tomorrow after storm henk battered parts of the uk last night. the west midlands ambulance service is warning people extra care after people to take extra care after several people had to be rescued from cars caught in flood waters. of birmingham , waters. parts of birmingham, leicester and northampton are already flooded. a family was