a petition to strip the former post office boss, paula vennells of her cbe, should she also. what about ed davey? what about him? should he resign? he seems quite keen actually, to call for everyone else, seemingly to resign when they've done wrong and all these and what about all these convictions then still convictions then that are still hanging people? it time hanging over people? is it time now all essentially to now for them all essentially to be immediately quashed? also ipso as well? who should be on

the hook for the compensation as taxpayers or fujitsu or combination of both? you tell me in the post office, minister as well will be addressing the commons at about 6:15. so we'll have that live with discussion have that live with a discussion off the back of it. and the actor is idris elba. he's in town today calling for zombie knives to be banned. would that solve the knife crime issue in this country ? and should this country? and should councils be removing palestinian flags? are they committing a crime? those councils, if they don't, that is a suggestion that's been made by one group of lawyers. we'll get into all of that tonight . indeed. but before that tonight. indeed. but before we get stuck into all of that debate, let's cross live for tonight's latest news headlines . tonight's latest news headlines. >> michelle, thank you. and good evening to you. well, the top story from the gb newsroom tonight is that the prime

minister says he'd strongly support a decision to revoke the former post office bosses. qubed obe paula vennells routinely denied there were problems with the horizon it system , which the horizon it system, which made it look like money was missing from post office branches . as a result, hundreds branches. as a result, hundreds of staff were convicted, jailed, bankrupt and some even took their own lives after they were wrongly accused of theft . the wrongly accused of theft. the government insists it's working to ensure compensation is paid to ensure compensation is paid to all those affected. the leader of the liberal democrats, ed davey, who was postal affairs minister at the time, denies any wrongdoing . wrongdoing. >> i wish i'd known then what we all know now for the post office was lying on an industrial scale to me . another ministers and to me. another ministers and when i met alan bates and listened to his concerns, i put those concerns to officials in my department, went to the post office, to national federations office, to national federations of postmasters , and it's clear of postmasters, and it's clear they all were lying to me .

they all were lying to me. >> in other news today, the german football legend franz beckenbauer has died at the age of 788. he captained germany to world cup victory in 1974, then won the tournament again as manager in 1990. nicknamed the kaiser, he helped to guide bayern munich to three successive european cups . his successive european cups. his family say he died peacefully in his sleep . chris skidmore has his sleep. chris skidmore has formally resigned as an mp , formally resigned as an mp, triggering another by—election. the government's former net zero tsar quit in protest of what he says are plans to prioritise and politicise new oil and gas licences. that's as mps prepare to debate the offshore petroleum bill this evening. if it passes, the legislation will mandate that licences for oil and gas projects in the north sea are awarded annually . another awarded annually. another warships being deployed to the gulf region today by the royal navy amid growing tensions and

attacks on international shipping in the red sea , defence shipping in the red sea, defence secretary grant shapps has confirmed hms richmond will join two other royal navy vessels on policing duties in the region in multiple attacks have been launched at commercial ships in the region, with houthi rebels based in yemen claiming the attacks are aimed at vessels unked attacks are aimed at vessels linked to israel . weather, news linked to israel. weather, news and fresh ice warnings have been issued for parts of britain as temperatures plummet and slow snow and sleet showers hit the country . the met office issued country. the met office issued yellow alerts for southern england and southern wales. they're effective until tomorrow morning and there's also an amber cold health alert issued for parts of england in line with the government's warning system. with the cold snap set to continue throughout the week . to continue throughout the week. and today, sir keir starmer visited flood hit flood hit rother , east midlands, promising rother, east midlands, promising that a labour government would do more to protect people's

homes. it's after labour accused the government of being asleep at the wheel over flood warnings . more than 160 remain in place across the country , and over across the country, and over 1800 properties have been damaged . damaged. >> this isn't the first time i've been out to talk to residents in this situation . residents in this situation. i've got to get ahead of this and that means earlier in the yeanin and that means earlier in the year, in the autumn, having a task force that brings together the local authorities, the emergency response, people emergency response, local people to ensure that the prevention work is done. some of the drains that are now being cleaned could have been cleaned before hand. the wasn't quick enough the response wasn't quick enough , so i just don't think it's good enough for government good enough for the government to after the event again to come after the event again and express empathy. get ahead of this with a task force. that's what i would do. >> sir keir starmer the actor idris elba has called today for an immediate ban of machetes and so—called zombie knives as he launched his don't stop your future campaign . the hollywood future campaign. the hollywood star spoke to families of victims today, folded clothes,

each representing someone who's died as a result of knife crime, were being laid out today in parliament square in central london. last summer, the home office said tougher measures on weapons would be introduced. the legislation hasn't yet passed. idris elba says although some deterrents are working, much more needs to be done. it makes me feel sad as a society that we aren't putting as much focus as we should be on, on, on stopping this. >> okay . and i just i think >> okay. and i just i think today's campaign launch is about just re re um, energising the government to think about this re—energise our society, to think about this as a group and say, all right, how can we stop this ? this? >> a private lunar lander launched from the united states. this morning, but has suffered a technical problem, calling the mission's future now into question . the issue prevented it question. the issue prevented it from pointing its solar panels stage fully at the sun without

the ability to charge its batteries and maintain a power supply . the mission can't supply. the mission can't proceed. expert s are now trying to resolve the issue . the to resolve the issue. the peregrine mission one is aiming to become the first us spacecraft to make a soft landing on the moon in half a century. it was expected to land on february the 23rd. that's the news on gb news jews across the uk on tv , in your car, on uk on tv, in your car, on digital radio and on your smart speaken digital radio and on your smart speaker. this is britain's news channel. >> thank you very much for that, polly. i am michelle dewberry. i'm with you till 7:00 tonight alongside me. i've got a new face on this panel. a political editor of the express online, david maddox , and the senior david maddox, and the senior lecturer at queen mary university of london, richard johnson is alongside me. although our dazzling beauty is currently being hidden by a black box . but any

currently being hidden by a black box. but any moment currently being hidden by a black box . but any moment now black box. but any moment now you'll be able to see it for yourselves at home. but for now.

good evening. back to you guys. i am still michelle dewberry with you at all. seven. you might have noticed a technical glitch that i blame it on the new face. i think it might be too hot to handle on tonight's panel too hot to handle on tonight's panel. political panel. david maddox political editor of the express online. all your faults. and alongside us, as well as senior lecturer at queen mary university of london, richard johnson. lots of you guys getting in touch with me tonight . you know, all the me tonight. you know, all the usual ways. gb views that gb news. com is how you reach me. or you can tweet me @gbnews. let's push straight in then, shall we? the tory mp danny kruger basically that kruger has basically said that the tories will leave the country sadder , less united and country sadder, less united and less conservative. he basically says that he thinks that the conservative party essentially could face a obliteration at the

next election. a little bit extreme . is it true, though, extreme. is it true, though, david, he's not wrong. >> the problem that the tories have is that they're not giving anybody any reason to vote for them. all their core voters are staying at home according to the polls at the moment. uh, or going to reform uk. some are even going to labour. uh if things don't change and change dramatically, then you know , dramatically, then you know, they could be down to a historically low level of seats. >> when you say change and change dramatically, what does that look like? >> you know , i was just >> well, you know, i was just thinking about the last poll i saw before the new year , uh, saw before the new year, uh, that gave labour a 23% lead. now if you work that through the algorithms , and that's never an algorithms, and that's never an exact science, but if you work it through the algorithms, that puts the conservatives on around 100 seats, their worst ever result is 1906, when i think they got 100 and 150 odd seats. you know, this is a 345 year old

party. the oldest political party. the oldest political party in the world. and you know, it would be historically bad result, not as bad as the canadian one. uh, a couple of decades back where they got wiped out, literally. i think maybe two seats, two seats. but you know, we're not, uh, if things get worse, we might be looking at that as well. it's uh, things are really. >> you think you think we could be in a situation where, give or take, the tories could literally be reduced down to two seats? well, bit dramatic. well, it's a bit dramatic. >> i mean, let's, let's, let's say that they don't do anything to get the conservative base to start wanting to vote for them again. let's say that nigel farage, for example, makes a comeback with reform uk takes them to the mid—teens. that splits the centre right vote. you know, and we're talking about very low, historically low levels of richard johnson . levels of richard johnson. >> i mean we're at politics at this moment is very volatile within this very same parliament. the conservative lives have, um, gotten over 50%

of the of the vote in the polls. the last general election was, um, a very sizeable majority for the government. we've seen in the government. we've seen in the course of the short campaigns of a general election , campaigns of a general election, say, in 2017, the polls change dramatically and so i think that at the moment, if we had an election tomorrow, that, yes , election tomorrow, that, yes, the conservatives would be facing , uh, if not complete facing, uh, if not complete annihilation, a historically bad result. but british politics is very changeable at the moment. and, uh, it's not the case that they would be, you know, we can laboun they would be, you know, we can labour, can just rest on its laurels and assume to strut into downing street. you see how helpful is this someone like danny kruger kind of saying these things, making these remarks. >> if i was rishi sunak , i would >> if i was rishi sunak, i would want to literally get all of my people into a room and give them the biggest telling off, bigger

than any telling off i've ever given my three year old, and then some. i would really be clamping down on all of these loose lips, all of this kind of, uh, talk, all of this chatter. it is not helpful. and surely it's not helpful to the morale of the tories . of the tories. >> is the problem here is that the tories now are so fractured and are so angry with one another. they're more angry with their different factions than they with the labour party. they are with the labour party. and you know, danny kruger, i'm afraid to say, is part of one of those groups. we saw them five families. returned to families. they returned to before christmas. you know who most of whom would like to see rishi sunak out and would like to push him out and get an alternative leader. like who? well i mean, there's various names kemi badenoch been names as kemi badenoch been mentioned suella braverman mentioned as suella braverman being mentioned, it's almost got to the point of anybody but rishi amongst some of them. and i personally think that would be catastrophic for them. i mean , a catastrophic for them. i mean, a third change of leader, fourth leader in after an election

would just make them a laughing stock . but you know, they've got stock. but you know, they've got to the point where some of them are saying, can it be any worse? uh sorry. >> go on. »- >> go on. >> richard, it's not just about the personality in charge. it's actually about the agenda. and i think what's happened is that the conservatives have lost sight of really why they did so well in 2019. i think the political sweet spot in this country is actually not that difficult to determine . it's difficult to determine. it's a mix of having well run public services, generous, but fair benefits , but also being tough benefits, but also being tough on crime, strict with borders and patriotic. oh, come on, it wasn't any of that. >> in 2019, i ran in that election. i did door knocking. i spoke to the electorate, i remember it, it was get their all noble aims. and i don't disagree with you that they're important, but i remember that election, cold, wintery election, that cold, wintery december. well december. i remember it well what were saying. it was what people were saying. it was the effect. it get the boris effect. it was get brexit done. they wanted their vote be respected. vote to be respected. >> was all packaged into >> that was all packaged into that a means to an end, that was a means to an end, right? wanted brexit done.

right? they wanted brexit done. absolutely brexit seen absolutely but brexit was seen as means to achieving these as a means to achieving these other ends. strict on the other ends. being strict on the borders, being able to have of better funded, well run public services and the reality is that i think that the conservative party, uh, actually began with, with boris getting distracted under covid but has continued, has lost sight of that and actually keir starmer, someone who i think has a number of flaws but actually what he has donein flaws but actually what he has done in the last couple of years is he's moved labour into that, into that space and ultimately i think that is the winning space in british politics. >> although i have to say, i think that the one trump card that the conservatives still have is keir starmer and the labour party, because nobody really knows what they stand for. nobody really has, uh , for. nobody really has, uh, actually kind of looked at what they plan to do yet. and i think as we get closer to the election, the focus on them is going to get much, uh, tougher. and that actually, i think starmer is going to struggle because, you know, this is a man

who's you know, more who's u—turned, you know, more times than the ballroom dancer and, uh, and he's going to get exposed. is some hope exposed. so there is some hope of him in that respect. >> well, al fayed open to you at home. david says that people don't starmer stands don't know what starmer stands for. do you think he's for. do you do you think he's summarised his, uh, pitch? summarised his, uh, sales pitch? for of a better word, for want of a better word, i noficed for want of a better word, i noticed as well. he was saying basically um, sunak is basically that, um, sunak is putting before putting vanity before his country . if he if he decides to country. if he if he decides to delay an election. i found that absolute nonsense . surely any absolute nonsense. surely any prime minister you try and hold on to your power for as long as you could. you try and steady the as best as you can, and the ship as best as you can, and surely you'd go to the electorate at the last possible moment. you? moment. you could, wouldn't you? wouldn't exactly what wouldn't that be exactly what starmer as well? uh, starmer would do as well? uh, dave says voted conservative dave says i voted conservative all i hope they all my voting life. i hope they do get obliterated, he says . do get obliterated, he says. high tax, high debt, big government high immigration. government and high immigration. we a conservative we need a conservative government more than ever. government now more than ever. but socialists, he says , but the con socialists, he says, uh, need to go. steve says, michelle, this is the worst government in the last 50 years.

we would not be voting for them. rishi was selected, but he won't be elected. harsh words, nice rhymes with her, but harsh words. also the main story as well. that's getting you guys talking. uh, tonight is of course, the ongoing saga at the post office. the post office minister, for want of a better phrase, he is about to address the commons, uh, as he does, i shall bring you update shall bring you that update live, but let's cross over and start debating that topic then, shall we? because this really start debating that topic then, shalcaptured cause this really start debating that topic then, shalcaptured now, this really start debating that topic then, shalcaptured now, um, really start debating that topic then, shalcaptured now, um, the lly start debating that topic then, shalcaptured now, um, the kind has captured now, um, the kind of imagination and the hearts of the nation . this scandal has the nation. this scandal has been going on for a very long time. but i would say it's the drama now on itv that's really brought it into people's hearts and homes. um, let's start off paula vennells. i so many paula vennells. i mean, so many people a million people now, over a million people now, over a million people on a petition are calling for hair to be stripped of the cbe. i would question she cbe. i would question why she was the first was awarded it in the first place, you know, whatever. place, but, you know, whatever. should of it? should she be stripped of it? >> there's no doubt she >> i think there's no doubt she should of it. and should be stripped of it. and i think, um, i gather rishi sunak if he hasn't said it already,

he's about to say the same thing as i mean, was an outrage. >> well, he said he would strongly support whatever that committee it committee decides. basically, it was, , uh, it was an was, uh, it was, uh, it was an outrage that she got it in the first place, given what was going on. >> i've been covering this story for some years as well. it wasn't fashionable is wasn't as fashionable as it is now. terrific uh, biopic now. terrific drama, uh, biopic rather from itv , uh, which has rather from itv, uh, which has exposed it again and got it really into people's minds again. but there are so many people who have very serious questions to answer over it. it's an absolute disgrace . chapter. >> i'll come to on ed davey in a second, but i can tell you now lots of you are getting in touch at home saying it's not just paula that should lose their honoun paula that should lose their honour. what about ed davey as well? uh, richard, where are you on that? >> w g is an e“— >> well, this is an important point. so, you absolutely point. so, you know. absolutely agree vennells agree on the paula vennells point, we've got to be point, but we've got to be careful she doesn't just careful that she doesn't just become scapegoat, the become the single scapegoat, the scapegoat, others scapegoat, and that others aren't account. you aren't held to account. you know, the itv program has know, one of the itv program has been important, but people

been very important, but people are questions are raising questions about why adam who was ceo of the adam crozier, who was ceo of the royal mail from 2003 to royal mail group from 2003 to 2010, didn't even appear here in the itv program. and some people question whether that has something to do with his current role as ceo of itv. no, it's not itv anymore. >> oh yeah, so he was he was at itv, now he's a i think it's bt. >> but anyway you're absolutely right. but his recent role there and whether he's still got friends in itv and you know and also we have to think about holding politicians to account as well. and you mentioned ed davey this is a politician who since he became leader of the liberal democrats, has called for 31 resignations of other. he has senior figures for various indiscretions and perhaps he now needs to think about applying that same standard to himself. >> let's listen to him. um, see what ed davey has to say about this today . this today. >> i wish i'd known then what we all know now . the post office all know now. the post office was lying on an industrial scale to me and other ministers , and

to me and other ministers, and when i met alan bates and listened to his concerns , i put listened to his concerns, i put those concerns to the officials in my department, to the post office, to the national federation of postmasters. and it's clear where they all were lying to me. >> do you know, i don't understand right in public office, i would like to think that i, as an individual, have got integrity. right. so if i was, let's just say your paula vennells or your ed davey or whatever. and i knew in my heart of hearts, when i go to bed at night, i know that on watch night, i know that on my watch i have failed those people, thousands those people have thousands of those people i have failed, them have failed, hundreds of them have got criminal records. some of them very tragically committed suicide. other people died suicide. other people have died since , sorry. prior to getting since, sorry. prior to getting their names cleared, many other people will die. perhaps unfortunately, even unfortunately, before they even get compensation. get any compensation. if that was wouldn't be able to was me, i wouldn't be able to sleep night. wouldn't need sleep at night. i wouldn't need petitions millions of petitions from millions of people saying strip it, strip it, strip it. would myself do it, strip it. i would myself do whatever you need to do. whatever process say,

whatever that process is to say, you what? i'm accountable, you know what? i'm accountable, i this, i apologise , and i accept this, i apologise, and in faith, you know, there's in good faith, you know, there's my cbe back . my cbe back. >> it always amazes me. i mean, we i've covered so many scandals in my time as a journalist and each time it's always a fight to get people to admit response , get people to admit response, ability to win back the honours. i don't know , i think people i don't know, i think people persuade themselves that they were in the right even when they were in the right even when they were actively involved in a cover up, as appears to have happened here. and, you know, and sir ed davey clearly didn't bother to ask the questions properly. he didn't ask for a properly. he didn't ask for a proper investigation in this when he had the opportunity . proper investigation in this when he had the opportunity. he just took face value, uh, false statements. well and that's, you know, that's the best that can be said about him. >> and when you're ambitious and you feel you've gotten close to the thing that you want, and i don't know what really the ambitions leader of the ambitions of the leader of the liberal democrats really are. but views himself as but perhaps he views himself as potentially kingmaker the potentially a kingmaker in the next hung next parliament. if it's a hung parliament, feels that he can

parliament, he feels that he can be you know, return to be that, you know, return to that position of being in power and he will have told himself, well, i didn't know. but the thing is, when you're a minister, unfortunate , you have minister, unfortunate, you have to be you have to know . and if to be you have to know. and if you don't know, you still have to take responsible for that. that's that our system that's the way that our system works. and this revelation works. and if this revelation had known when ed davey was had been known when ed davey was the minister, he surely would have been required to expected to resign from his ministerial role . and so i don't think it's role. and so i don't think it's unreasonable for people, even though, constitutionally speaking, there's no particular reason now reason why he should resign now as of the liberal as leader of the liberal democrats from more and democrats from a more evil and ethical perspective, from a position of integrity and honoun position of integrity and honour, things that we don't hear from many hear very much about from many politicians, particularly liberal democrat politicians today , that on its own should be today, that on its own should be reason enough for him to consider his position. >> yeah, and i've got to say, um, i mean, graham has just said michelle, i've watched that whole, um, mr bates versus the post office, and i've cried at

the injustice . and i think that the injustice. and i think that sums up what a lot of other people feel . lee says one of the people feel. lee says one of the viewers has been in touch saying, michelle, i worked in one of the affected post offices as a member of staff in the shop.the as a member of staff in the shop. the postmistress sacked every one of us, thinking every single one of us, thinking that was stealing the that it was us stealing the money. then herself money. and then she herself was arrested. turns arrested. even though it turns all out that it was all down to the faulty system that we were working with. now, background working with. now, my background pnor working with. now, my background prior was involved prior to telly, i was involved in it, so i used to do what we call business transformation, in it, so i used to do what we cwould iness transformation, in it, so i used to do what we cwould be ss transformation, in it, so i used to do what we cwould be involved»rmation, in it, so i used to do what we cwould be involved»rmthe n, i would be involved in the deployment of massive it systems right . now on the most basic right now. now on the most basic common sense even if common sense level, even if you're of a big it you're not kind of a big it person, if you suddenly. so if you've got a collection of people that have been running their know, their post office, you know, whatever, then all whatever, it's all fine then all of sudden you find yourself of a sudden you find yourself with these spikes. surely there must have spikes this must have been spikes of this supposed activity . supposed fraudulent activity. surely sit there as surely you would sit there as just a common sense thinker and 90, just a common sense thinker and go, hang on a second. we've got this huge spike in fraud and that correlates with a date or the time frame where we put in

this not rocket this software. it's not rocket science to sit there and go, there's something not quite right there. and you default even , the basic level even for basic, the basic level of when you see money disappearing is to check whether it is an it fault. >> and i think the truth about this is that , and maybe this this is that, and maybe this will come out, is that they were aware of it and still pursued the cases anyway. and that's certainly the allegation that's been made, which makes it even worse for, uh , even worse worse for, uh, even worse miscarriage of justice. because if people were actually aware of it wasn't just ignorance. it was it wasn't just ignorance. it was it wasn't just ignorance. it was it was vicious and intentional. yeah >> and fujitsu , they seem to >> and fujitsu, they seem to have come out of this scot free. i would be very interested in looking at and understanding where they are. fujitsu systems deployed across the public sector at the moment . where have sector at the moment. where have you got installs ? where have you you got installs? where have you got service contracts? what is the fujitsu picture? because many people would argue, if this

is what you've been involved in to this kind scale , there is to this kind of scale, there is a question mark to a massive question mark as to whether or not you, uh, should be competent and able to be involved public sector involved in the public sector going forward. >> the worry with >> that's always the worry with these of scandals is, you these kind of scandals is, you know, rarely an isolated know, if it's rarely an isolated case is it the case now that case and is it the case now that if start to look, look back if we start to look, look back at incidents, are at other, other incidents, are we to find other pockets we going to find other pockets of this kind of behaviour? i think fujitsu, you know, it's astonishing that no one from fujitsu or the post office has been held accountable at any level. as far as i understand, for this over these many years and i think certainly when it comes to questions of compensation, then should compensation, then there should be about be considerations about fujitsu's. uh, liability in fujitsu's. um uh, liability in that regard as well. >> and let's talk about that compensation then, because there's a question mark about who should be the hook who should be on the hook essentially, for the compensation, at the compensation, because at the moment, course, the post moment, of course, the post office is essentially owned by the government, which essentially means us taxpayers . essentially means us taxpayers. so that it's us so that means that it's us taxpayers, essentially that will be the for that

be on the hook for that compensation. an that the way compensation. an is that the way you think it should well you think it should be? well i think fujitsu certainly should be paying some at be involved in paying some at least some of that compensation. >> was clearly , uh, they >> uh, it was clearly, uh, they clearly share some of the blame for it. and and, uh, you know, it should be coming from them and the post office essentially. and, uh , you know, the taxpayer and, uh, you know, the taxpayer always seems to end up footing the bill for other people's mistakes. and uh, and that's not right . right. >> and keir starmer sarah dyke keir starmer because, i mean, just to be clear, everyone, this is a scandal, right? which pretty much covers all the political parties. nobody comes off this well , nobody comes off off this well, nobody comes off this clean hands. but sir this with clean hands. but sir keir many are keir starmer, many people are pointing was pointing out that he was a director of public prosecutions as well a period. whilst as well for a period. whilst this is happening, people this is happening, uh, people are that he are suggesting that perhaps he should have done more. should he? >> well, it depends, i guess. what kind of evidence was brought what brought before him. but what seems be the pattern seems to be the pattern throughout this entire scandal is that, um , people weren't

is that, um, people weren't being listened to and people who were ordinary just hard working members of the public where things weren't going right to them. they either weren't sure or where to turn , or when they or where to turn, or when they turned to people they thought could help them. they weren't being helped. and one of the long, longer time lessons of this to try to stop this kind of thing from happening again is to ensure for a that we, uh, that pubuc ensure for a that we, uh, that public officials and people in business listen when they're employees are raising these concerns, concerns like this . concerns, concerns like this. and also, i think setting up some kind of system, maybe through an ombudsman or something, people can kind something, where people can kind of get out of the go direct to raising, you know, raise the alarm. um, and getting some kind of external review in at a much earlier stage. chernihiv i would appoint to lead that and it

probably will make rishi sunak bottom clench. >> i would get alan johnson on. yeah. he was the former mp uh, for where we where we live, uh, hull west and hessle. he was, of course, a former postman . um, course, a former postman. um, he's a man that i have great respect and admiration for, actually. but someone like that, appointing someone like that to kind of get hold of this, take it all forward, try and kind of just it all out once and just sort it all out once and for all. i think that would give the a lot kind of comfort. >> well, he also understands how government works. and, uh , government works. yeah. and, uh, understands the tricks and cons that people try to play to cover things up. so he would be he would be an excellent choice. but i'm afraid, you know , this but i'm afraid, you know, this is yet another example of the establishment dumping on ordinary people. and and, uh, you know, i did a piece , uh, for you know, i did a piece, uh, for the website this morning really kind of explaining why, you know, it wasn't directly to do with brexit, but why this is kind of , you know, connected to

kind of, you know, connected to the brexit vote because an awful lot of that vote in 2016 was people punching the nose, essentially , of the essentially, of the establishment and being fed up and being told from on high what to do and what, and what they were doing wrong when it was, uh, when it was those above them . well, i think you were at fault as lee. >> um, one of the, uh, viewers that just got in touch with me, who worked in one of those shops, mentioned that level of distrust for your manager, who's presumably ran a tight ship with no kind of fraudulent activity . no kind of fraudulent activity. all of a sudden, fraud starts happening. that eye cast happening. to have that eye cast on to you and for you to be made to like you are somehow now to feel like you are somehow now a criminal or something like that, when you know in your heart hearts you're not. heart of hearts you're not. i mean, it doesn't even bear thinking about. and the lawyers, the of that has the amount of money that has been spent . i the amount of money that has been spent. i think the amount of money that has been spent . i think the current been spent. i think the current total is something like £150 million. i mean , it is million. i mean, it is eye—watering eye—watering now, and that's why perhaps, um, we

need to think about, uh, parliament actually getting directly involved in accelerating the process of compensation because clearly, this trundling along through, um, you know , the kind of normal um, you know, the kind of normal legal processes has been too slow and already, as you mentioned, people have have passed away . and you know, passed away. and you know, people say, okay, well, you need the independence of the judiciary and so on. >> but actually our system allows that when obvious allows that when it's so obvious that needs to be done in that justice needs to be done in a certain way. we do have the mechanism that parliament can legislate. think legislate. and i think parliament should, could, could, could if they think could consider if they think it's necessary to , uh, to set up it's necessary to, uh, to set up a compensation, a way of delivering compensation that is quicker than the way it's going at the moment. and also minimises the amount of , of time minimises the amount of, of time and effort that's required from the people who have been victimised by this to actually get that compensation. because actually, i think some of them are so worn out and fed up by all of this as well, that

they're kind of quite understandably disengaged and disengaged as well. and so it shouldn't keep the burden, shouldn't keep the burden, shouldn't keep the burden, shouldn't keep being borne on them. um you know, if government can act, it should. >> yeah . it's not just >> yeah. it's not just compensation either. it's also legal costs. yes. because a lot of these people are paying out a lot of their compensation in legal costs. yeah. there's it's a mess . wrong. a mess. wrong. >> there's certainly an argument isn't there. now for putting something through parliament. whatever it would whatever instrument it would take actually say to people, take to actually say to people, you what convictions you know what all convictions related post office fraud are related to post office fraud are now accept that by now quashed. i accept that by doing there could a doing that, there could be a small of that small number of people that perhaps genuinely commit perhaps did genuinely commit fraud. might get off the fraud. they might get off the hook. but you know what? that's a to pay. in the a small price to pay. uh in the big of things, chris, my big scheme of things, chris, my view is says compensation is down solely to post office, view is says compensation is dov1 us. olely to post office, view is says compensation is dov1 us. chris.o post office, view is says compensation is dov1 us. chris. yes, post office, view is says compensation is dov1 us. chris. yes, chris. office, view is says compensation is dov1 us. chris. yes, chris. but:e, not us. chris. yes, chris. but the post office is indeed owned by the government, which of course is us. the government don't have own money, do don't have their own money, do they? just have ours. they? they just have ours. stephen michelle, i can't they? they just have ours. steprut michelle, i can't they? they just have ours. steprut this elle, i can't they? they just have ours. steprut this whole can't help but think this whole scandal of the plan

scandal is part of the plan to close post offices down. uh, vernon says michelle, what are you all talking about? surely all of you must see what this is all of you must see what this is all about. it's about a multi—million pound bonuses of those at the top. dave says, we've always been told that we have to pay top rates for the top ceo shows. where are these top ceo shows. where are these top ceos then, when it comes to being first in the queue for accountability? i hear you, della says . surely all of this della says. surely all of this must raise a red flag about future use artificial future use of artificial intelligence . yes, uh, lee says intelligence. yes, uh, lee says michelle, i've said this before. you didn't read it out, though he says there's surely a warning here. if people can be duped and sustain such losses, etc. just because of a simple faulty system, just think what the banking institutions could claim and put down to faulty digital and put down to a faulty digital banking system. i hear you, uh, ian says, michelle, you're talking about, uh, people and honours, etc. this is a question of decency and honour and ed davey , he says, has none of davey, he says, has none of those qualities . of course, those qualities. of course, don't forget that bates, he don't forget that alan bates, he was honour. do you

was offered an honour. do you remember ? and he actually remember this? and he actually turned said he turned it down and said he doesn't want to accept it until everyone that's been affected has received basically the compensation what compensation and justice. what a good he is. and i'll tell good man he is. and i'll tell you people in public you now, some people in public office learn a thing or office could learn a thing or two the post office two about him. the post office minister be addressing minister will be addressing parliament imminently, apparently supposed be apparently was supposed to be about even about quarter past six. even when happens the when that happens during the show, make that i show, i will make sure that i cross live directly to that. and you will hear first. don't go you will hear it first. don't go anywhere. there's lots i want to talk to you after the talk to you about after the break. want to ask, should break. i want to ask, should councils be responsible for removing palestinian flags which are appearing on their streets and also knife crime? how on earth do we go about solving this? you tell me

they want to launch this new green economy. they've promised hundreds and hundreds of thousands of . good evening. thousands of. good evening. >> michelle dewberry dewbs& co with you till seven. the political editor of the express online, david maddox, alongside me and the senior lecturer at

queen mary university of london, richard johnson. we've just been debating at length the post office scandal before the break. the office minister the post office minister apparently address the apparently about to address the commons he does, commons even when he does, she'll it. so you she'll cross live to it. so you don't out. many people are don't miss out. many people are asking me, well, michelle, where did all money go? that is did all the money go? that is the million question. the million dollar question. literally. i know the literally. i don't know the answer. it went, answer. i'm assuming it went, uh, chalked profits, uh, got chalked down to profits, didn't the post office. didn't it? for the post office. if knows, get in if anyone knows, better get in touch and tell me, because that is your absolutely right. a fascinating question, for fascinating question, but for now, let's talk. uh, britain's street, shall we? because we all know what's going on when it comes knife crime. and now comes to knife crime. and now the actor idris he the actor idris elba, he has taken the streets taken to the streets and basically launched new basically launched a new campaign. it dirty campaign. he's calling it dirty stop your future. he went over to parliament square in london. there was displays of lots of different young people's clothes, apparently represent clothes, apparently to represent young that have been lost young lives that have been lost to the senseless, senseless thing that is knife crime. how do we stop this, david? >> it's a very difficult one. i

mean, i'd say father of a teenage boy who's just left school. it's uh, you know, the thing that parents dread the most. we've certainly in our area had, uh , young people lost area had, uh, young people lost to knife crime , uh, in east to knife crime, uh, in east london. and it's, um, you know , london. and it's, um, you know, there's no particular simple answer to this, but, you know , answer to this, but, you know, reintroducing a proper stop and search regime and being robust about it would help . uh, but, about it would help. uh, but, you know, there's a lot of roles that communities can play as well. and you know, and you have to sometimes look at the causes of why people are going into gang culture and why they, um, you know, which is what's leading to them going into knife crime as well. i mean, i'm playing if you're listening to the radio, i mean, i'll describe we're playing some, um, like, instruments on the screen scene, uh, knives, machetes . uh, knives, machetes. >> i mean, i look at them and i actually feel quite chilled to my bone, actually, because there is no reason for those things if

you ask me to exist at all. i mean, look at that thing. well, i'm sure it's got a technical terms, but it's like some kind of . it's like terms, but it's like some kind of. it's like a hammer. it's like what you see on a on a video game. like an axe or something. richard, where are you it? you on it? >> i think we have to take a tough line in banning these kinds of and the zombie kinds of knives and the zombie knives, they're called, knives, as they're called, as well . there's loophole at the well. there's a loophole at the moment if these knives moment where if these knives aren't presented and in the way that they're advertised as being used harmful effects, they used for harmful effects, they can kind of get get around them. we're not tough enough in terms of purchases of some of of internet purchases of some of these as well. so i think these knives as well. so i think these knives as well. so i think the legislation needs to be updated. be updated. it needs to be tightened. of the tightened. i think one of the very sensible things this country did back in the 1990s was take a very tough line on handgun ownership and basically made it almost impossible . um, made it almost impossible. um, unless you're in very specific areas of , of, unless you're in very specific areas of, of, uh, of unless you're in very specific areas of , of, uh, of work unless you're in very specific areas of, of, uh, of work or what have you to, to have a handgun. and i think that we

should think about taking some similar approach to some of these, particularly these kind of heavy duty knives, unless you're unless you're a butcher and you're licensed to have that kind of knife, then anyone kind of knife, then does anyone else need to be owning that kind of knife? even if you're a butcher, have butcher, you wouldn't have a implement like those kind of things. >> and you also wouldn't be wandering the streets with it. let's a little listen let's just have a little listen to is him in to idris elba. this is him in london earlier on today. >> i think deterrents are always going to work okay, but i think it's not just the perpetrators. we think about how these we have to think about how these knives getting into the knives are getting into the hands. okay. you know, i can pick up a phone right now, type in knives and i'll get inundated with adverts for that with adverts for them that should also, we should find should be. also, we should find a way deter , um, tech a way to deter, um, tech companies advertising to put that away . that away. >> see, i don't mean to be oversimplistic in my approach with this, right. but i can't help but blame the for parents a lot of this, because when i've just showed some of those, um, i'll try and get them back on

the screen again. some of these, like machine type things, right? these kids wandering around like machine type things, right? thesthese wandering around like machine type things, right? thesthese things ndering around like machine type things, right? thesthese things apparently und like machine type things, right? thesthese 1their; apparently und like machine type things, right? thesthese 1their trousers. tly und tucked into their trousers. point they're not even going point one they're not even going to walk like a normal to be able to walk like a normal human being got these human being if you've got these kind of length of things shoved down your leg. and point two, where those children where are those children hiding those ? i'm not those implements? i'm not talking about the hand talking about the little hand knives. i'm talking about your big machetes , your swords, pen big machetes, your swords, pen points. i think in this day and age, if you've got a teenager, you said you've got a teenager. i think to be checking i think you need to be checking the smartphone of your kids, the history, they're up history, seeing what they're up to, do. sorry. it's to, and i do. i'm sorry. it's old fashioned, people will old fashioned, but people will start about privacy. but old fashioned, but people will sthink about privacy. but old fashioned, but people will sthink you about privacy. but old fashioned, but people will sthink you needt privacy. but old fashioned, but people will sthink you need to rivacy. but old fashioned, but people will sthink you need to be my. but old fashioned, but people will sthink you need to be goingt i think you need to be going through your kids bedrooms. yes, yes. >> yeah. do you do that as a parent with your teenager? i i trust teenager very much, but trust my teenager very much, but it uh, yeah, i mean, it is. uh, but yeah, i mean, certainly we should be and it's, uh, mean , the but i think uh, but i mean, the but i think the issue is that, you know, a lot of these kids who are getting involved in knife crime are, are, are going into gangs first. and it's largely , you

first. and it's largely, you know, it's unfashionable to say it. it's largely due to family breakdown . it's largely due to , breakdown. it's largely due to, uh, parents not being either being able to look after their kids properly or being under stress, or just not doing their job as parents and, you know, we have to face that, that fact , have to face that, that fact, unfortunately . um, so, you know, unfortunately. um, so, you know, the idea that parents in these circumstances are going to be going through their rooms and things, it's probably not, uh, not going to happen, you know, for bad. that's it. for the bad. that's it. >> i'm not casting any aspersions on your children. i'm sure are, you know, sure that they are, you know, whiter white, decent whiter than white, decent children. had a pound children. but if i had a pound for every single time you see this young kid being stabbed, and see the story about and then you see the story about the the stabbed, and the stabber and the stabbed, and then parents then you hear the parents saying, my child was saying, oh, my god, my child was such a good, sweet boy. he never hurt a fly. he loved colouring and he loved it. i'm sure he did love, but he also in a gang love, but he was also in a gang running around. and if it wasn't him had been stabbed, him that had been stabbed, he would the one doing him that had been stabbed, he

w0lstabbing. the one doing him that had been stabbed, he w0lstabbing. sometimes doing him that had been stabbed, he wol stabbing. sometimes so ing the stabbing. sometimes so sometimes think, and i know sometimes i do think, and i know it very harsh, but i do it sounds very harsh, but i do think that need to be think that parents need to be honest harsh with themselves honest and harsh with themselves sometimes be little bit sometimes and be a little bit more overbearing parents, but more overbearing as parents, but maybe fashioned. maybe i am just old fashioned. i'm tell me if you i'm sure you will tell me if you think that i am also after the break, i want talk to you break, i want to talk to you about yes i do, because about flags. yes i do, because over tower hamlets, which is over in tower hamlets, which is here there's been here in london, there's been accusations about potential accusations now about potential criminal offences over the flying palestinian flags. flying of palestinian flags. should flags allowed to should these flags be allowed to be streets? is it the be on the streets? is it the council's responsibility to remove you tell me .

hello there. i'm michelle dewberry. this is dewbs& co. soledar seven, political editor of the express online. david maddox alongside me is a senior lecturer at queen mary university of london. richard johnson, back to that post office scandal that discussed office scandal that we discussed at the beginning of the programme. lots of are programme. lots of you are saying essentially, why aren't people prosecution for

people facing prosecution for their roles in this scandal? i hear you, i've got to say, i do actually agree with you too. uh, here in london, an east london borough tower hamlets, to be precise, has been accused of, i quote, multiple criminal offences. why? because the displaying of palestinian flags. lawyers now have written to the met police. uh, over the proliferation of flags , as well proliferation of flags, as well as posters and stickers with allegedly inflammatory messages on there. now it's got me thinking, right, because the israel gaza conflict is one that really has, um , brought out a really has, um, brought out a lot of emotions in people . lot of emotions in people. understandably, i hasten to add. and it is a conflict that i think does kind of have a direct impact in some places on the streets of britain, but on this, um, situation specifically about these flags, the accusation is that the jewish community in that the jewish community in that borough of tower hamlets feel intimidated, and all the rest it . do you feel intimidated, and all the rest it. do you think feel intimidated, and all the rest it . do you think those rest of it. do you think those flags should be allowed to be displayed on the streets? >> no. actually work in >> uh, no. i actually work in tower i've seen tower hamlets, and i've seen these up since october.

these flags up since october. and i can in the week and i can remember in the week after the 7th october attacks when these flags and the posters and stickers started going up everywhere. i remember thinking to myself, this if particularly if i was a jewish person, i would find this to be quite intimidating . um, practice in intimidating. um, practice in this country is that you don't put flags up on lampposts , and put flags up on lampposts, and that's for reasons not just of, um, whether that's appropriate for intimidation reasons, but also for reasons of public safety so that they're not blocking the roads signs and all that kind of thing. and i'm, i'm personally am quite puzzled why these flags are still on the lampposts in tower hamlets today. i saw them today as i was at work. >> well, i think it's quite obvious, isn't it? it's a political decision to allow them. it's a fairly left wing. uh council there and they obviously support the palestinians. they probably wouldn't say they support hamas, but the implication is that they

they might do so. i mean, clearly , clearly, i mean, it's clearly, clearly, i mean, it's there's always an issue about banning just banning stuff . and banning just banning stuff. and we should always be careful on that. but in some cases, in this case, in particular, the palestinian flag has become quite close to the kind of anti—semitism and certainly some of the language that's been used on around it is, is, is, is , is on around it is, is, is, is, is quite threatening to the jewish community. in this case, they should be taking. >> i think my view is that people, individuals should are, should be allowed to fly flags. that's fine . um, and i don't that's fine. um, and i don't think that every person who flies a palestinian flag shares the views that you've said some may do, but the issue, i think here is that when these flags are put up on public, um, infrastructure and against the rules and then are left there, there's a sense that the rules

don't apply to the people who are articulating this position, and that then makes people a little concerned about if the rules don't apply to certain groups , then is there a real groups, then is there a real rule of law problem in in this particular borough and i think thatis particular borough and i think that is the is that's at the heart of this. what's the answer to that then? well, i think these flags, these flags need to be taken down. >> do you think people have got the courage to take them down? >> well, as i as i was saying, i think tower hamlets probably quite to be up quite happy for them to be up and that's, that's the real problem. i think if a, for example , if suddenly there was example, if suddenly there was a proliferation of israeli flags on lampposts, you'd see the council removing them very quickly, would you? >> so do you think there's a double standards then if it was an israeli they'd be up on an israeli flag, they'd be up on that ladder it off. and that ladder getting it off. and if palestinian one, they if it's palestinian one, they wouldn't, i think. >> think that's the case. >> i think that's the case. >> i think that's the case. >> do you, do you agree with that sentiment at like, that sentiment at home. like, you know, i get it, get it, by you know, i get it, i get it, by the way, have to be clear. um,

the way, i have to be clear. um, you know, i've spoken to a lot of people that are deeply affected the conflict that is affected by the conflict that is going gaza, particularly. going on in gaza, particularly. i've spoken, uh, friend of i've spoken, uh, a friend of mine palestinian mine actually is palestinian and feels heartbreak feels absolutely heartbreak by what injustice, what she calls the injustice, uh, community being uh, of that community being attacked just looking attacked and people just looking on it happen and not on and seeing it happen and not doing anything. so i kind of get the sentiment do get it. the sentiment and i do get it. uh, to your point, i think if you fly those flags on you want to fly those flags on your own private land out your bedroom or stick to bedroom window or stick it to your whatever, fill your your car or whatever, fill your boots. is, boots. but the question here is, should you be allowed attach boots. but the question here is, shoulithingsie allowed attach boots. but the question here is, shoulithings toallowed attach boots. but the question here is, shoulithings to the med attach boots. but the question here is, shoulithings to the public attach these things to the public infrastructure problem infrastructure? the problem that you've got a little you've got is we've got a little bit of a double standard going on because ukraine flags were popping up on because ukraine flags were popping up absolutely everywhere. see them. everywhere. i used to see them. in a in fact, actually, i remember a viewer getting in touch very recently that have viewer getting in touch very rece flying that have viewer getting in touch very rece flying in that have viewer getting in touch very rece flying in yourat have viewer getting in touch very rece flying in your school1ave one flying in your school window. so, so if you have a flag celebrating or championing window. so, so if you have a flag supporting] or championing window. so, so if you have a flag supporting] or chanonining window. so, so if you have a flag supporting] or chanon one] and supporting the side on one conflict, the flip side conflict, then the flip side of that well, then can't that is, well, then you can't tell me i can't fly a flag tell me that. i can't fly a flag to support my side of a different conflict. yeah yeah. >> well, mean, >> well, i mean, there's a there's a separate issue, which

is what, uh, what's the guidance for bodies what do for public bodies and what do they fly over their own, uh, flagpoles um , i think flagpoles and, um, i think there's argument to be made, there's an argument to be made, for example, that you know, you could say, okay, well, actually , could say, okay, well, actually, councils can decide this democratically, and you elect councillors and they have councillors and they have council debates and they can debate whether or not to fly a particular flag . and if you, as particular flag. and if you, as the voters in a certain area disagree with that decision, you can vote them out at the at the next election. so i don't really i'm not i'm not so opposed to that as long as it's done through the proper democrat processes, because there's a way of accountable at the end. well, i don't agree with is when there are guidance, guidance that already exists and that guidance is being flouted or selectively flouted or haphazardly flouted . flouted or haphazardly flouted. >> and yeah, i mean, there's very simple way to solve all of this, isn't there? you just have a simple rule that any piece of pubuc a simple rule that any piece of public infrastructure, the only flag that is allowed to be flown at all, is the one of this

country. no ifs buts or maybes that would perhaps clear up some of these issues in in nanosecond. lee's been in touch. there michelle. what nonsense. you speak on knife crime. any kitchen is a lethal weapon kitchen knife is a lethal weapon these doesn't need to these days. it doesn't need to be a machete. someone else on twitter also twitter says you're also speaking michelle speaking nonsense. michelle suggesting alan johnson to fix the post office. well, i like him anyway. that's all i've got time for, gents. thank you. thank home. don't thank you. at home. don't go anywhere. up next, anywhere. farage up next, a brighter outlook with boxer, the sponsors whether on . gb news sponsors of whether on. gb news evening, i'm alex deakin. >> this is your latest weather update from the met office for gb news temperatures tumbling once more out there tonight could a bit icy as well. we could be a bit icy as well. we have seen a few snow flurries across parts of the south. high pressure in control, keeping pressure is in control, keeping things pretty dry most of things pretty dry for most of this but the easterly this week, but with the easterly breeze we have seen a few showers across the south. as i said, some sleet and snow mixed in. no huge amounts, but nevertheless you could see a

covering in places and wherever. we've showers could be icy. we've got showers could be icy. so we have office ice so we do have a met office ice warning place across the warning in place across the south. slippery conditions south. those slippery conditions into the early hours further north, stubborn fog patches north, some stubborn fog patches across scotland and across northern scotland and many or below many places dipping to or below freezing parts of the east may just stay above freezing, where we keep a bit more cloud and some will start a bit grey. on tuesday. quite cloudy over north—east england, southeast scotland early showers scotland any early showers over the southwest should scoot away and for many it's a bright day tomorrow. fine winter's tomorrow. bright fine winter's day feeling chilly. temperatures starting freezing and starting off around freezing and only getting up to 3 or 4 degrees. feeling colder the degrees. feeling colder with the wind across the south, particularly you're stuck particularly if you're stuck under across under that cloud across northeastern england . a northeastern parts of england. a bit more cloud coming in to northeastern areas wednesday, northeastern areas by wednesday, and more showers likely, and a few more showers likely, although be although these expected to be chiefly some chiefly of rain, maybe some sleet and snow on hills. a sunny day generally across the south, and many western coast. again, fine and sunny through wednesday thanks to that area of high pressure temperatures just creeping a touch, but still creeping up a touch, but still below average . and of course it

below average. and of course it will feel colder once more in the . the wind. >> things are heating >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers . sponsors of up boxt boilers. sponsors of weather on gb news

>> good evening. tonight our top story . it's the subpostmaster story. it's the subpostmaster scandal . should they all be scandal. should they all be exonerated . we'll look at the exonerated. we'll look at the oil and gas licences debate in the house of commons following the house of commons following the resignation of a conservative member of parliament. i will interview a banker who was sacked over using the n word in a diversity debate as to what was acceptable, what wasn't. we'll pay wasn't. and we'll also pay tribute to the last of the world war ii sas originals. but before all of that, let's get the .