bill most of you know what the bill most of it is satisfactory. you just need to beef it up a little bit to close all the loopholes and make sure that people can't come over and break into our over here and break into our country and use use spurious country and use and use spurious claims the hook . claims to get off the hook. >> landslide for donald >> landslide win for donald trump . the former president trump. the former president was victorious the iowa caucuses victorious at the iowa caucuses overnight . how far can he go overnight. how far can he go this year .7 this year? >> and the uk is a hostile target. that's how a houthi senior military spokesman described us and uk linked ships. our security editor, mark white, he's got more . white, he's got more. >> this follows a missile strike on a us owned commercial ship off yemen yesterday afternoon . off yemen yesterday afternoon. there is no real concern about what the houthi rebels will do next, and unemployment at unchanged in the three months to november, the rate of uk unemployment remained at 4.2% and the children's word of the year has been released today. >> we're not happy about it.

>> we're not happy about it. >> absolutely cracking show today. packed full of great stories that you don't want to miss. let us know your talking points gbviews@gbnews.com first though, the very latest news with sophia wenzler. >> thanks, bev. good morning. it's 931. i'm sophia wenzler in the gb newsroom. rishi sunak is geanng the gb newsroom. rishi sunak is gearing up to face a potential rebellion later, as the rwanda bill returns to the commons, lee anderson and brendan clarke—smith are among more than 60 tory mps who are backing moves to toughen up the flagship migration policy, rebelling mps fear courts will be overwhelmed with appeals from asylum seekers earmarked to be deported, although the prime minister promises to allocate over 100 judges to these cases . lee judges to these cases. lee anderson says the pair are about 90% happy with the bill. but it needs to be fine tuned .

needs to be fine tuned. >> we just feel that there's a few areas in the bill that could be strengthened to make sure that it's watertight . and let's that it's watertight. and let's not forget, we're less than a year away from a general election now, and the last thing i want over there is a labour lock coming in and repealing the rwanda scheme and opening the borders to 100,000 odd illegal migrants here, which they will do if they sign up to any eu sort of deal. so this is not about us rebelling. it's about us saying, you know what the bill, of is satisfactory bill, most of it is satisfactory . you just need to beef it up a little bit. the bosses of the post office and fujitsu will be questioned later by mps . questioned later by mps. >> it includes wronged subpostmaster alan bates, whose story inspired the hit tv show mr bates versus a post office. mps on the committee will hear evidence from witnesses about the process for delivering fair and timely compensation for the victims. more than 700 people were convicted after flawed accounting software in the honzon accounting software in the horizon system made it appear money was missing from their

branches , and there are further branches, and there are further signs that the job market's are cooling as wage growth slows . cooling as wage growth slows. new figures from the office for national statistics found that the uk's average weekly wage growth eased to 6.6% in the three months to november. it's the lowest rate since the three months to january last year. it means pay packets grew faster than the rate of price rises . than the rate of price rises. november also saw the lowest number of strikes in 18 months, with a slowdown in walkouts in the health sector . work and the health sector. work and pensions secretary mel stride says the government's plan is working and parts of the uk face another day of cold temperatures as they dropped overnight to below freezing. the met office says a cold plunge of arctic air has moved south across the whole country over the past few days , country over the past few days, making it 5 to 6 degrees lower than usual for this time of yeah than usual for this time of year. the met office has issued yellow warnings for snow and ice covering northern areas of england, parts wales and all england, parts of wales and all of scotland. it remains in place until midnight. it has warned of

snow showers, power cuts and possible delays to trains and cancellations of air travel, and you can get more on all those stories by visiting our website at gbnews.com now it's back to andrew and . bev andrew and. bev >> very good morning . it is 934 >> very good morning. it is 934 tuesday morning, so >> very good morning. it is 934 tuesday morning , so the real tuesday morning, so the real life alan bates , the founder of life alan bates, the founder of justice for subpostmaster alliance, who's played by toby jones in mr bates versus the post office. we'll be talking for the first time this morning. we'll be bringing you that live , we'll be bringing you that live, as were the former subpostmistress jo hamilton, played by monica dolan , in that played by monica dolan, in that tv drama. >> mr bates versus the post office. she was accused of stealing £36,000 by the post . stealing £36,000 by the post. she pleaded guilty in 2008 to false accounting , so lawyers false accounting, so lawyers told her otherwise she could go told her otherwise she could go to prison. her conviction was eventually quashed in 2021. she'll be talking to. >> that's right. we're going to be taking that live about 10:00.

these are two of the main protagonists, of course, from this which been protagonists, of course, from thisover which been protagonists, of course, from thisover the which been protagonists, of course, from thisover the place :h been protagonists, of course, from thisover the place in been protagonists, of course, from thisover the place in the been protagonists, of course, from thisover the place in the last] all over the place in the last few weeks. we're going be few weeks. we're going to be heanng few weeks. we're going to be hearing they say. hearing what they have to say. i'm excited about this. >> aren't you? absolutely. because look, drama has been because look, the drama has been extraordinary because look, the drama has been ext|going ary because look, the drama has been ext|going scandal. that was on, going scandal. that was first written about in a computer magazine in 2009. my own newspaper started to write about 20 2013, but the drama has put it on the on the national map. ten what 9.5 million people watched the first one and it was the articulacy of people like alan bates and jo that has made it such a compelling drama, and it's caused the great scandal. it is the biggest miscarriage of justice in british legal history. >> it makes me so cross, though, that it's taken a tv docudrama to put this front and centre . is to put this front and centre. is it a coincidence, that coincidence that it's election year? probably not. that all of the mps are there kind of getting involved? i'm glad there's a sense of justice. i want to see them all compensated. quite to compensated. i'd quite like to see proceedings brought see criminal proceedings brought against made these against people who made these people's hell. people's lives hell. >> shouldn't forget. also

>> and we shouldn't forget. also fujitsu, who built this fujitsu, who who built this dodgy , malfunctioning system dodgy, uh, malfunctioning system . um, some of their bosses , . um, some of their bosses, they're up before the public inquiry. that's a statutory inquiry. that's a statutory inquiry being chaired by a former high court judge. it's been going for three years. been going on for three years. for they're up for god's sake. they're up before today, too. before that inquiry today, too. so big the post so it's a big day for the post office scandal. and ultimately we want people to get their full compensation . how do ever compensation. how do you ever get back? you know, get your life back? you know, what people who went get your life back? you know, wiprison people who went get your life back? you know, wiprison should)eople who went get your life back? you know, wiprison should never who went get your life back? you know, wiprison should never have went get your life back? you know, wiprison should never have gone to prison should never have gone to prison should never have gone to prison. about people to prison. what about the people to prison. what about the people to their to sell their homes? their marriages up the marriages are broken up. the people died already people who've died already without getting justice, and the four own lives. >> absolutely right. let us know your thoughts this morning. gb views at news. com is the views at gb news. com is the email address. we be email address. we will be checking them any minute now. now american now big night in the american elections because the former president trump, one step president donald trump, one step closer with joe closer to a rematch with joe biden, an overwhelming biden, he scored an overwhelming win in the iowa caucus. >> and i really think this is time now for everybody in our country to come together . country to come together. >> we want to come together. uh whether it's republican or democrat or liberal or

conservative, or would be so nice if we could come together and straighten out the politics for the audio in that clip. >> we're joined in the studio now by chair of the republicans overseas, greg swenson. good morning . greg, can we just morning. greg, can we just explain to our audience explain to our british audience a basically meeting, a caucus is basically a meeting, isn't party members ? isn't it, of the party members? and what happens there? >> ultimately secret >> it is ultimately a secret ballot . so you do actually cast ballot. so you do actually cast your ballot privately after a few speeches , after some few speeches, after some conversations. so it's much more of a community gathering rather than just an election where you can mail in your ballot or you can mail in your ballot or you can just go to the election centre any time during the day. you have to go at 7:00 central time and you have a conversation. so it's a little bit more interactive or a lot more interactive, right? but importantly, no mail in ballots. so it really it forces people to come out and get a little more engagedin come out and get a little more engaged in the process. and do the the republican the members of the republican party the last night, do party in the case last night, do they put nominations for people first choice, first, second and third choice? >> you just put one name

>> did you just put one name down? down, ultimately. >> so it's not too different >> and so it's not too different than a primary, which we'll see next tuesday in a week from today in hampshire , it's today in new hampshire, it's a different function . but different function. but ultimately you're you're voting for one person. and the outcome as, as you know, wasn't that much of a surprise. >> but the scale of it. >> but the scale of it. >> um, yeah. greg, enormous . he >> um, yeah. greg, enormous. he got more than 50% of the vote, more than all the other candidates combined. 30% margin of victory over , um, ron of victory over, um, ron desantis, who was not expected to come second. we all thought it going to be nikki haley, it was going to be nikki haley, the ambassador. the former un ambassador. she trailed poor third. trailed into a poor third. >> think that was the >> yeah, i think that was the i wouldn't say huge surprise , but wouldn't say huge surprise, but the small surprise or the small outcome that that , that, um, we outcome that that, that, um, we didn't expect was that that ron didn't expect was that that ron did rally and come in second. and as you know, i'm a supporter of ron desantis, so i'm disappointed in what's happened over months. but over the last few months. but yeah, for a non—incumbent president , this is the biggest president, this is the biggest margin ever . president, this is the biggest margin ever. i mean, bigger than bob dole in 19, in 1996. but if

sometimes you have to consider trump to be a kwasi incumbent . trump to be a kwasi incumbent. so for an incumbent president to poll below 90 in his own party is a disaster. so in some ways, this was an overwhelming victory. there's no doubt about it. i can't dress it up and 30 points and over 50% very rare in iowa. usually you win the iowa caucus in the 30s, but an incumbent president or kwasi incumbent president or kwasi incumbent should be polling much better. the only advantage he has is his opponent, his likely opponent. next year is joe biden , who's also an incumbent president . polling in the 60s. president. polling in the 60s. >> so no , i can't make my mind >> so no, i can't make my mind up. what greg is happening in in, in in biden world. >> are they thrilled that he's so far ahead? trump because they think they can beat him. >> that's that's the argument that they've been making for a long time. they to be long time. they want trump to be the that's they've the nominee. that's why they've had the indictments and the mugshot this is mugshot. and, you know, this is helping in the nomination helping trump in the nomination process because he's the only one biden could beat. but one that biden could beat. but

that because now that might backfire because now it looks, you know, in the last few months, trump is polling a little higher than biden in most polls, or least polls, or at least tied statistically tied. and so this is this is something that could really backfire on the democrats. >> are they hoping both i mean, it's too close to call. >> i mean, either both candidates flawed and both candidates are flawed and both could other. you could lose to the other. do you think to some extent the democrats are hoping that maybe these will these criminal prosecutions will have trump the have caught up with trump by the time he time of the election, and he won't able to stand. won't even be able to stand. that's that's the theory, right? so during the so they pump him up during the nomination process and then once he's clearly the candidate, then they'll really turn on him and they'll really turn on him and they'll just they'll just run constant jan six tapes and they'll, you know, talk about democracy and all this other stuff . chander. but yeah, but stuff. chander. but yeah, but i think it could work. and that's their theory. and if you look at their theory. and if you look at the polls , if you look at the the polls, if you look at the fine print, you know, 10% of republicans won't vote . vote for republicans won't vote. vote for him if he has conviction . so him if he has a conviction. so then have a turnout problem. then you have a turnout problem. you have an enthusiasm problem. so rallying around

so the base is rallying around him. republicans are really supporting know, once supporting him. you know, once alvin bragg, you know, started with , trump went with the indictment, trump went from to 60. that's 15 points from 45 to 60. that's 15 points of resentment . most of it came of resentment. most of it came from ron desantis. but in if there's a conviction, it might just make people hesitate. and that's all you need is five points. >> there's so many of them still think, don't they, that biden is there illegally . there illegally. >> they're ignoring the fact that the president ain't cited effectively a riot at capitol hill. yeah, they're still thinking somehow biden cooked the books in the election, of which there's no evidence for that. >> yeah. i mean, you know, you could you could have an argument about election irregularities and and new york and zuckerberg's and new york post and, you know, censorship ship. but the stop the steal denial in 2022 was an electoral failure. so you know, trump as leader of the party has has not had good elections since 2016. barely 1 in 16 but 18, 20 and 22 were miserable failures and most

of the problems in 22 were from candidates that were leading with the election was stolen in 2020. it doesn't matter what your view is, it's just not an electoral winner . electoral winner. >> let's see what else happens. so vivek ramaswamy , now so vivek ramaswamy, he's now stepped he's stepped out. stepped aside. he's stepped out. he ended up on about was it two 3? i think the vote . 3? i think of the vote. >> yeah i think it may be more higher. >> it doesn't matter. you know single digits. there's no single digits. there's just no path. and of path. and he's winning. and of course and course he endorsed trump and he's supporting trump. >> surprise. he's supporting trump. >> evenerrise. he's supporting trump. >> even though trump was kind of nasty to him over the weekend. yeah, that's trump's nature nasty to him over the weekend. yeaiknow. that's trump's nature nasty to him over the weekend. yeaiknow. so t's trump's nature nasty to him over the weekend. yeaiknow. so it'srump's nature nasty to him over the weekend. yeaiknow. so it's and)'s nature nasty to him over the weekend. yeaiknow. so it's and it nature nasty to him over the weekend. yeaiknow. so it's and it works; you know. so it's and it works for him. so vivek know for him. so yeah vivek you know made a good you know who knows whether he was just doing this to get into good graces with the president or maybe get the nod for vice president or set himself up for 2028. but endorsing trump was no surprise to anybody. >> um, and what about haley? she finished by saying this is now a two person race. is she right? >> i don't think so . if she'd >> i don't think so. if she'd come in second, i would have to say yes. and i would think if

governor desantis had come in third, it would probably be wise to drop out and not waste any more money. but i think that because she came in third, she's very well positioned in new hampshire . i give her a lot of hampshire. i give her a lot of credit for that. but new hampshire different kind of hampshire is a different kind of state. more state. it's a it's more of a moderate republican. it's new moderate republican. it's a new england republican up there. 50% of the voters in new hampshire are independents. you are are independents. and you can cross over anybody can vote in the republican primary. so it's really well set up for nikki haley, who's viewed as more of a traditional she needs to win, doesn't she ? to win, doesn't she? >> because she needs momentum. oh, absolutely . oh, absolutely. >> she i mean she if she loses in new hampshire, it is over because republican modern in because no republican modern in since world war two, no republican has won and new republican has won iowa and new hampshire. interesting you hampshire. it's interesting you usually those , right? if usually split those, right? if he wins both then then he's done. >> and where does this leave ron desantis now? he said, you know , desantis now? he said, you know, in spite all they threw at in spite of all they threw at us, got our ticket punched us, we got our ticket punched out of iowa, does go out of iowa, where does he go from out of iowa, where does he go frorthere's really no path. out of iowa, where does he go frorthe'e's really no path. out of iowa, where does he go frorthe way'eally no path. out of iowa, where does he go frorthe way things 0 path. out of iowa, where does he go frorthe way things are 3th. out of iowa, where does he go frorthe way things are going

>> the way things are going right now, the reason right now, i think the reason that governor desantis and that both governor desantis and nikki haley, governor haley, will stick around is because trump is vulnerable, right? he's 78 years old. he's got 91 indictments on you just don't know. i can't predict it. but what i can say is, even though he's clearly got the path to winning the nomination , you winning the nomination, you know, that's there's no doubt about that. anything can happen there. there's he's vulnerable . there. there's he's vulnerable. and i think it's worth probably worth hanging around to be the number two just in case. >> okay. brilliant thanks, greg. >> okay. brilliant thanks, greg. >> thanks, beth. >> thanks, beth. >> thanks, beth. >> thanks, andrew. all right. >> thanks, andrew. all right. >> now rishi sunak's rwanda scheme, one. scheme, the contentious one. this revised one, the this is the revised one, the beefed he says it is beefed up one. he says it is returns to the commons today. that's returns to the commons today. thaat least 60 tory mps have returns to the commons today. thaat lamendments’vips have returns to the commons today. thaat lamendments’viptoughen the backed amendments to toughen the legislation to prevent european backed amendments to toughen the legisla'andto prevent european backed amendments to toughen the legisla'and humanent european backed amendments to toughen the legisla'and human rightsopean backed amendments to toughen the legisla'and human rights lawyers judges and human rights lawyers from blocking deportee flights, leading the rebels. >> his former immigration minister, robert who minister, robert jenrick, who quit the cabinet over the rwanda deal quit the cabinet over the rwanda deal, and he told gb news he's considering considering mind, deal, and he told gb news he's con saying] considering mind, deal, and he told gb news he's con saying he»nsidering mind, deal, and he told gb news he's con saying he willering mind, deal, and he told gb news he's con saying he will voting1ind, not saying he will voting against the bill. >> certainly going to support

the amendments there in my name and those with bill cash, there's now 60 conservative mps backing them. i hope the government will move and produce amendments that create a bill that will actually work. if they won't, then i've been clear that i'm not going to support the bill and i'll actively consider voting against it, because all that matters is what works. and i'm not going to support a bill that doesn't work. >> and joining a former immigration minister are two deputy chairman of the party, lee anderson and brendan clarke—smith . and they announced clarke—smith. and they announced they would vote for the rebel amendments. >> as brendon and i both agree with pretty much 90% of this rwanda bill, we just feel that there's a few areas , uh, in the there's a few areas, uh, in the bill that could be strengthened to make sure that it's watertight. and let's not forget, we're less than a year away general election away from a general election now. the thing want now. and the last thing i want over is a labour lot over there is a labour lot coming uh, and repealing the coming in. uh, and repealing the rwanda scheme and opening the borders to 100,000 odd, uh, illegal migrants here, which

they will do if they sign up to any eu sort of deal. so this is not about us rebelling. it's about us saying, you know what the bill, most of it is satisfactory . we just need to satisfactory. we just need to beef little to close beef it up a little bit to close all the loopholes make sure all the loopholes and make sure that come over that people can't come over here and our country and break into our country and use use spurious claims to get off aukus off the aukus. >> incredibly important, >> this is incredibly important, which why, you see, uh, not which is why, you see, uh, not just lee and i, but our colleagues well, we all colleagues as well, who we all have on bill have opinions on this bill because make it work. because we want to make it work. we those planes take we want to see those planes take off. just want to beef it up off. we just want to beef it up a bit . a bit. >> well, joined now by the >> well, we're joined now by the immigration lawyer, sampson immigration lawyer, ivan sampson , tell take his take on , to tell us take his take on the bill. ivan. morning. we've talked to you about this before. people morning. people like, um, brendan. um, clarke—smith. and lee anderson. what they want to do is prevent any individual appeals. if someone's if the decision is to deport someone, that's it. no appeals. they've got a point , haven't they? got a point, haven't they? because lawyers like you with all respect, are often aren't you bringing in bogue , bringing you bringing in bogue, bringing in appeals automatically to

delay the entire process ? delay the entire process? >> well, let me put you. >> well, let me put you. >> it's not possible the process to put a general ban on every single individual case is not lawful. not so long as while we're in the refugee convention, you'll remember that the bill. what it says is that, generally speaking, rwanda safe. that having been said , you've got to having been said, you've got to consider individual circumstances , compelling circumstances, compelling reasons, compassionate reasons for an individual. for example , for an individual. for example, someone could have a mental illness and they may well impact on their safety in rwanda, despite the fact the government saying that it's safe now . the saying that it's safe now. the courts back in december didn't accept assurances by the rwandan government that it was safe , government that it was safe, they didn't accept assurances by they didn't accept assurances by the uk government that it was safe . and what the government is safe. and what the government is doing now is saying, right, we're going to it safe we're going to declare it safe by of parliament. and in by an act of parliament. and in my view , rwanda is not a safe

my view, rwanda is not a safe country . um, paul kagame has country. um, paul kagame has a history of , country. um, paul kagame has a history of, uh, uh, country. um, paul kagame has a history of , uh, uh, extra history of, uh, uh, extra judicial arbitration, extra judicial arbitration, extra judicial , judicial killings, uh, judicial, judicial killings, uh, putting down his opponents, putting down his opponents, putting them in jail. putting down his opponents, putting them in jail . that's putting them in jail. that's a sort of person that we're deaung sort of person that we're dealing with. so by simply having an act of parliament to say, well, we say it's safe, there's going to be a conflict with the courts when it gets back to the courts. >> but, ivan, what about the suggestion lawyers suggestion that lawyers are deliberately the deliberately clogging up the system appeals , multiple system with appeals, multiple appeals? and again, appeals? again and again, knowing that they are just dragging out the process? that's what these tory mps are trying to stop. >> well, put yourself in an asylum seekers position. someone trying to remove you to rwanda. there's a law which allows you to make an application to strasbourg prevent it . what strasbourg to prevent it. what would you do, andrew? you say , would you do, andrew? you say, you know i'm not going to you know what? i'm not going to do it because i don't want to clog system. well i cut clog the system. well i cut strasbourg out. >> what i do. >> that's what i do. >> that's what i do. >> stands well. the law as it >> it stands well. the law as it stands them the right to stands gives them the right to do you to

do that. so if you want to change it, got to come change it, you've got to come out convention. there's no out the convention. there's no other robert other way. and i'm afraid robert jenrick understands that , um, it jenrick understands that, um, it won't work. now, the bill also has a caveat for ministers to override the decision. an interim injunction by strasbourg. even if they do that, i think you'll get challenges in the high court for judicial review of that decision. because if there's compelling reasons as to why the injunction was granted , it begs injunction was granted, it begs the question why would a minister override it? so that also has to lawful . um, it's also has to be lawful. um, it's not done. i don't think the courts will get through with this before the election. i've been taught me through the real world application of this , this, world application of this, this, this, this clause , which this, this clause, which basically means that those who that appeals could be made could give me the certain circumstances , cases in which circumstances, cases in which those individuals could claim to not that that they they can't go through this process of non—refoulement that we heard what kind of situation might

they able to claim under the way they able to claim under the way the bill is at the moment? well, i'll give you an example . so i'll give you an example. so somebody could say they've got a mental illness and they have a doctor's letter, a report, say they cannot be sent to rwanda . they cannot be sent to rwanda. that will be compelling reasons to stop that person being removed . now, what their removed. now, what their argument would be that they won't feel safe because of their particular individual circumstances. look you cannot in law have a blanket ban. it's unlawful . it's inequitable , in law have a blanket ban. it's unlawful. it's inequitable , and unlawful. it's inequitable, and it's not fair. process >> that feels like a very low bar. if it's if it's just a letter from a doctor to say , letter from a doctor to say, i've got a mental illness that could be claimed by anybody , could be claimed by anybody, given i have such anxiety, i can't get on the aeroplane. i'm claustrophobic. i can't get on the aeroplane. is the bar genuinely that low ? genuinely that low? >> it's actually the opposite. the bar is very, very, very high and the government's done that because they're going to have to get a expert to, to make an

assessment and make those findings as if it's not genuine . findings as if it's not genuine. no expert is going to do it. so the bar is actually quite high. it's the exact opposite. >> okay . all right. >> okay. all right. >> okay. all right. >> that's the lawyer ivan sanderson always a joy to talk to you, ivan. mark white, who's our home security here. our home security editor here. i'm just puzzled about that. i know not your area, know you, it's not your area, but if they've got a mental illness, does it matter if illness, why does it matter if whether rwanda in whether they're in rwanda or in a hotel in britain? what's the difference? >> well, think would >> well, i think they would say with the mental with regard to the mental illness, that it's something that exacerbated by by that would be exacerbated by by being sent to rwanda , not being sent to rwanda, not necessarily, you know , getting necessarily, you know, getting on a flight because they can't fly. i think it's the trauma that they've suffered. and then suddenly , uh, being sent to suddenly, uh, being sent to a third country like rwanda , third country like rwanda, facing an uncertain and therefore they could take that to its conclusion to say, i would be suicidal, i would i might i need a bit more convincing. i do take exception to what i've been saying about the being very high. the bar the bar being very high. the bar is very low, course, and

is very low, of course, and there is a whole industry that is sprung out of it around is sprung up out of it around this whole asylum system , with this whole asylum system, with the people smugglers to begin with, the charities and the human rights groups who the lawyers , you know, they would lawyers, you know, they would say for a good reason are say for a very good reason are in there helping these people . in there helping these people. then the turn of the human then it's the turn of the human rights lawyers and the supporters when they get to the uk . uh, mounting challenger. we uk. uh, mounting challenger. we never used to see challenges like this in the past, but you see it now all the time. and anybody thinks, regardless anybody that thinks, regardless of of the of what the outcome of the rwanda bill is, if it goes through, if anybody thinks that it's going be subject of it's not going to be subject of multiple challenges , uh, i multiple legal challenges, uh, i think is deluded because it will and they'll be and forgive me, but am i right to assume, mark, that most of these challenges against the deportation decision will funded by legal aid by will be funded by legal aid by the taxpayer? yeah well, the british taxpayer? yeah well, absolutely. there will be entitled to legal aid. okay. the lawyers don't get as much legal aid to, but it aid as they used to, but it still gets fund because these people can't it for people can't fund it for themselves. don't themselves. obviously they don't have the means that, but

have the means to do that, but they the right under our they have the right under our law to that kind of protection, which means that we have to pay for the legal challenge that they mount. they will mount. >> and when you it like >> and when you put it like that, can see why plays that, you can see why it plays such part how people such a big part in how people wish vote in this election wish to vote in this election and important this is and how important this bill is going to this afternoon. and how important this bill is going ta this afternoon. and how important this bill is going ta big his afternoon. and how important this bill is going ta big issue. ernoon. >> it's a big issue. >> it's a big issue. >> and it's not just the sight of it's of boats coming across. it's because affecting people because it is affecting people in community right across. absolutely. there is barely a community this nation where community in this nation where a hotel has not been turned over for asylum seekers. okay >> thank you mark. lots more to come this morning. any minute now, the real life alan bates, who inspired the drama that he pushed for the drama of the post office scandal. he's going to be for talking the very first time. this britain's newsroom on this is britain's newsroom on gb news channel. news the people's channel. a brighter outlook with boxt solar , sponsors weather on . gb news. >> good morning. >> good morning. >> welcome to your latest gb news weather update with me,

annie shuttleworth from the met office. it's going to be another very day out there today very cold day out there today with across many with snow and ice across many northern areas. there is a warning in force this area warning in force for this area of and snow that's moving warning in force for this area of morend snow that's moving warning in force for this area of more northwestern; moving warning in force for this area of more northwestern areas ng warning in force for this area of more northwestern areas of into more northwestern areas of the uk, covering much of southern scotland into northern england. well as northern england. as well as northern ireland, perhaps parts of north wales. later in the south, though it should stay largely dry across much of wales, central and southern central england and southern england, crisp england, with plenty of crisp winter sunshine across the east. once the cold start once again. after the cold start this warm up this morning, it will warm up a little with light and little bit with light winds and plenty sunshine south, plenty of sunshine in the south, but very cold in but still staying very cold in the north into the evening . the north into the evening. we'll then see a harsh frost developing once again through this evening. plenty clear this evening. plenty of clear skies the south, but also skies across the south, but also that very cold wind across the north, allowing temperatures to dip low as —15 across dip down as low as —15 across parts of scotland , the area of parts of scotland, the area of sleet snow will into sleet and snow will push into more of northern more more areas of northern england tonight. and that means that the risk of ice tomorrow morning . so do take care if morning. so do take care if you're travelling, there'll be another very cold start to the day morning and we'll

day tomorrow morning and we'll see plenty of snow showers pushing northern ireland. pushing into northern ireland. many areas of scotland, many northern areas of scotland, but it should be but further inland it should be a much drier and brighter day. in the south coast, though you could see dusting of snow, but could see a dusting of snow, but there some uncertainty in the there is some uncertainty in the detail, up to detail, so please keep up to date with them. if you are in these many us date with them. if you are in thshould many us date with them. if you are in thshould be many us date with them. if you are in thshould be a many us date with them. if you are in thshould be a dry, many us date with them. if you are in thshould be a dry, crispiy us it should be a dry, crisp winter's day but still feeling fairly that's for fairly chilly. that's all for now, sure you keep up fairly chilly. that's all for no date sure you keep up fairly chilly. that's all for no date and sure you keep up fairly chilly. that's all for no date and i'll sure you keep up fairly chilly. that's all for no date and i'll see you keep up fairly chilly. that's all for no date and i'll see you next» up to date and i'll see you next time. >> that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers sponsors of weather on .

gb news. >> 10:00 on tuesday the 16th of january. this is britain's newsroom on gb news with me, bev turner and andrew pierce. >> real life alan says >> the real life alan bates says he's move heaven and he's going to move heaven and earth compensation for earth to get compensation for the post office scandal. we'll be live as he talks for be crossing live as he talks for the first time and on the post office scandal, there are calls for the archbishop of canterbury. >> your favourite person, andrew justin resign over his justin welby, to resign over his links former post office links to the former post office boss, vennells. he boss, paula vennells. he recommended to be bishop of london. >> heaven's sake i rwanda bill >> heaven's sake! rwanda bill rebellion two not one deputy chairman looks set to rebel over the rwanda bill. our political edhon the rwanda bill. our political editor, christopher hope, has more . more. >> it's a key 48 hours for rishi sunak. will his rwanda plan survive? contact with his own right wing tory mps? we'll find

out . out. >> and britain's nastiest novelist that's the title awarded to jk rowling in a new statesman article, which has been condemned and quite rightly too, as misogynistic. let us know your thoughts. this morning on all of our talking points. vaiews@gbnews.com. >> and we're very vexed also about a story we're going to tell you the favourite word of the year, chosen by children six and 16. according to oxford university press. when we tell you, you will be holding your headin you, you will be holding your head in horror, brainwashed head in horror, how brainwashed this these poor kids are. >> this generation . no wonder >> this generation. no wonder they're anxious and they're all anxious and depressed. is it? first though, your very latest news with sophia . sophia wenzler. >> thanks, bev. good morning . >> thanks, bev. good morning. it's 10:01. >> thanks, bev. good morning. it's10:01. i'm sophia wenzler

in the gb newsroom . rishi sunak in the gb newsroom. rishi sunak is gearing up to face a potential rebellion later , as potential rebellion later, as the rwanda bill returns to the commons , lee anderson and commons, lee anderson and brendan clarke—smith are among more than 60 tory mps who are backing moves to toughen up the flagship migration policy rebellion. mps fear courts will be overwhelmed with appeals from asylum seekers earmarked to be deported, although the prime minister promises to allocate over 100 judges to these cases . over 100 judges to these cases. as lee anderson says, the bill needs to be fine tuned . needs to be fine tuned. >> we just feel that there's a few areas in the bill that could be strengthened to make sure that it's watertight , right? and that it's watertight, right? and let's not forget we're less than a year a general a year away from a general election and the last thing election now. and the last thing i want over there is a labour lot and repealing the lot coming in and repealing the rwanda scheme. and opening the borders to 100,000 odd illegal migrants here, which they will do if they sign up to any eu sort of deal. so this is not about us rebelling. it's about us saying, you know what the bill most of it satisfactory. bill most of it is satisfactory. you just need to beef it up a

little bit . little bit. >> and shadow paymaster general john jonathan ashworth insists that the legislation will never pass the commons under rishi sunak's leadership. this is the third piece of legislation the government have brought forward to try and deal with this problem, and rishi sunak keeps saying the boats and saying he'll stop the boats and every time he says that he fails and exposed to being and he's exposed to being completely weak, he's got his own deputy chair, chair , one of own deputy chair, chair, one of them, one of your tv presenters, of actually him , of course, actually defying him, and he's doing anything and he's not doing anything about completely weak. about it completely weak. >> going to grip this >> he's never going to grip this problem this country's problem or this country's never going problem. going to grip this problem. when we have weak we while we have such a weak prime bosses of the prime minister the bosses of the post office and fujitsu will be question ed later by mps. >> it includes wronged subpostmaster alan bates, whose story inspired the hit tv show mr bates versus the post office. mps on the committee will hear evidence from witnesses about the process for delivering fair and timely compensation for the victims. more than 700 people were convicted after flawed

accounting software in the honzon accounting software in the horizon system made it appear money was missing from their branch iis. there are further signs that the jobs market is cooling as wage growth slows . cooling as wage growth slows. new figures from the office for national statistics acas found that uk's average weekly wage growth eased to 6.6% in the three months to november. it's the lowest rate since the three months to january last year. it means pay packets grew faster than the rate of price rises , as than the rate of price rises, as november also saw the lowest number of strikes in 18 months, with a slowdown in walkouts in the health sector . work and the health sector. work and pensions secretary mel stride says the government's plan is working. >> what these figures show is that inflation now is under half of what it was a year ago, beating the target set by the prime minister. that's taking some pressure off people in terms of cost of living. we're seeing near record levels of employment near record low levels of unemployment. we're seeing real wages increasing of course, for the fifth month in a row now. and all this progress is because we've got a very

clear plan of turning the economy around, giving us a brighter future . us officials brighter future. us officials have condemned iran after it fired missiles overnight on a building linked to israeli intelligence in northern iraq . intelligence in northern iraq. >> iran's revolutionary guard said they struck what they claimed was a mossad headquarters building in the city of erbil . four people are city of erbil. four people are reported to have been killed. israel hasn't yet confirmed commented on the strike. the iranian government said the strikes were in response to an israeli attack in syria last month . donald trump has secured month. donald trump has secured a landslide victory in the first 2024 republican presidential contest in iowa caucuses last night . it's the first step for night. it's the first step for republican voters choosing their candidate to take on the democrats in november's election. florida governor ron desantis finished well behind in second place, edging out former un ambassador nikki haley. trump hailed his victory in a speech to supporters, saying he wants to supporters, saying he wants to straighten up the problems of the world.

>> this has been an incredible experience. the people have been. this is the third time we've won, but this is the biggest win . this is the they biggest win. this is the they said , well, if you win by 12, said, well, if you win by 12, that's a big win. that's going to be very hard to do. well, i think we more than doubled that. i guess tripled it. maybe they want country to come back. want our country to come back. they want america , you know. they want america, you know. they want america, you know. they want america, you know. they want us to be great again. it's simple maga make it's a very simple maga make america great again . america great again. >> and parts of the uk face another day of cold temperatures after overnight lows dropped below freezing . the met below freezing. the met office says a cold plunge of arctic air has moved south across the whole country over the past few days, making it 5 to 6 degrees lower than usual for this time of making it 5 to 6 degrees lower than the|l for this time of making it 5 to 6 degrees lower than the met this time of making it 5 to 6 degrees lower than the met office me of making it 5 to 6 degrees lower than the met office has)f making it 5 to 6 degrees lower than the met office has issued year. the met office has issued yellow warnings for snow and ice covering northern of covering northern areas of england. of wales and all england. parts of wales and all of scotland . it remains in place of scotland. it remains in place until midnight. of scotland. it remains in place until midnight . it is warned of until midnight. it is warned of snow showers, power cuts and possible delays to trains and

air travel. this is gb news across the uk on tv in your car, on your digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying play your smart speaker by saying play gb news. now it's back to andrew and . bev andrew and. bev >> good morning chennai six, thank you for joining >> good morning chennai six, thank you forjoining us. let's thank you for joining us. let's see what you've been saying at home. jon rahm said. here we have. trump could come have. donald trump could come back as the us president, who loves britain give us back as the us president, who lctrade ritain give us back as the us president, who lctraderitain but give us back as the us president, who lctraderitain but how give us back as the us president, who lctraderitain but how (earths a trade deal, but how on earth last time? no he didn't, did he? no. i kind of forget that. >> yeah. i mean, i mean, we've had how long have we had this biden for. it's 20, 23, 20 years. so there was time. there was time. >> there was not enough. was time. >> noere was not enough. was time. >> no workis not enough. was time. >> no work wast enough. was time. >> no work was donngh. was time. >> no work was done on. was time. >> no work was done on it of any significance. >> but he says, how are we going to that a labour to do that with a labour government where you've got the likes starmer david government where you've got the likes and starmer david government where you've got the likes and yvette er david government where you've got the likes and yvette cooper,iavid government where you've got the likes and yvette cooper, where lammy and yvette cooper, where they'll clips of them they'll be clips of them criticising donald trump? i dread to think what the relationship between america and britain like with britain is going to be like with a labour government. really good point

a labour government. really good poiiyeah, pointed the >> yeah, i pointed out in the mail week or a couple of mail last week or a couple of weeks my column when weeks ago in my column when cameron prime minister cameron was prime minister there was foreign was an edict of the foreign office nothing to do office to have nothing to do with candidacy with donald trump's candidacy for american they for the american because they wanted support hillary wanted to support hillary clinton . this bloke is now our clinton. this bloke is now our foreign secretary . he got it foreign secretary. he got it wrong on foreign policy. >> all all the time. >> all all the time. >> absolutely. well, gary says the tory rebels, um, are paper tigers. is about the rwanda tigers. this is about the rwanda bill later today, as they've demonstrated bill later today, as they've demonsloted noise threats. make a lot of noise and threats. but comes to the crunch, but when it comes to the crunch, they that's they just cower away. that's your suspicion, isn't it? >> heard former >> look, we heard the former immigration minister, robert jenrick. i reminded not to support he to support the bill. is he going to vote bullseye vote against it? i bullseye moeen he will not. and i lay moeen ali he will not. and i lay money. the government will get this through the third reading. that then that means the whole thing then goes house of lords. will that means the whole thing then go

wars. i completely shared that concern before donald trump became elected because i just thought, was almost thought, oh, but it was almost like across the like the crazies across the world. dictators world. the crazy dictators looked and thought, world. the crazy dictators look> that's right. with kim jong un. yeah. >> and obviously kim >> i mean, and obviously kim jong un is not here to defend himself. >> no. surely not. crazy lunatic who runs north korea . in the who runs north korea. in the interest of balance , the crazy interest of balance, the crazy dictator would assert that he's not a crazy dictator . um. and not a crazy dictator. um. and we're going to see, as you say, any minute now, we're going to be going to the post office scandal. mr bates, hamilton, scandal. mr bates, joe hamilton, the characters from the two main characters from that , the real people, not that drama, the real people, not the actors, are going to be talking. we're going to be going to them live. >> i bumped into hamilton. >> i bumped into joe hamilton. she's um, who was she? she she's just, um, who was she? she she was, um, had to repay £36,000. she pleaded guilty to false accounting to avoid a prison sentence because that's what a lawyer said. so it could be your mum. >> yeah. she's the she's the character with the character in the drama with the blonde, who is trying

blonde, curly hair who is trying to the books to balance. and to get the books to balance. and she can't do computers. to get the books to balance. and s don't can't do computers. to get the books to balance. and sdon't really|n't do computers. to get the books to balance. and s don't really understandiuters. to get the books to balance. and sdon't really understand hows. to get the books to balance. and sdon't really understand how it i don't really understand how it works . works. >> e”- works. >> still bewildered how >> she is still bewildered how her was turned upside down. her life was turned upside down. >> surprised. her life was turned upside down. >> nothingirised. her life was turned upside down. >> nothing wrong. saying >> nothing wrong. kept saying i haven't anything haven't done anything wrong. i've stolen money. it i've not stolen any money. it wasn't and yet she was wasn't me, guv. and yet she was like who took a criminal like many who took a criminal record to try and avert the threat prison. shocking. record to try and avert the threcharlie'ison. shocking. record to try and avert the threcharlie hasi. shocking. record to try and avert the threcharlie has got ocking. record to try and avert the threcharlie has got in> charlie has got in touch on gb views at gb news. com he says it's right all the it's quite right that all the victims of the post office horizon scandal should be compensated, suggested. horizon scandal should be conabsolutely suggested. horizon scandal should be conabsolutely slbeinged. it's absolutely they are being compensated. just my compensated. it wasn't just my suggestion, but suggestion, i think slowly but slowly my slowly and frankly, in my opinion, not sufficient amounts. it's atrocious. it's absolutely atrocious. despicable. 16 despicable. what's happened 16 years to these employees of years ago to these employees of the post office, the people who employed them should be ashamed of fujitsu of what's happened. fujitsu should crucified should be absolutely crucified for . again, it's for what it did. again, it's simply appalling what has happened british happened to these british citizens who are fundamental to britain's just britain's everyday life. i just remind one bosses of remind you, one of the bosses of fujitsu, he is before the public inquiry, which a statutory inquiry, which is a statutory inquiry, which is a statutory inquiry by inquiry being chaired by a former high court judge in the public, so that public inquiry is and he's speaking. is ongoing and he's speaking. >> before . that inquiry

>> he's before. that inquiry today. now we're going to be we're going to talk now to the conservative mp for north norfolk, duncan baker, who's unusual a tory mp. and unusual in being a tory mp. and yet he is a former subpostmaster. family subpostmaster. his family ran a business she had not one but two subpost offices and he joins us now. duncan, morning you. now. duncan, morning to you. >> morning andrew. yeah, >> good morning andrew. yeah, i've been described i've often been described as unusual. >> i think there aren't many. there aren't many mps who ran a local post office. and you work behind the counter. i think when you were a child in your dad's post office, didn't you? >> uh, well, that's that's slightly lily, and slightly gilding the lily, and i'll be honest enough to say that, i a finance that, um. no, i was a finance director of the ct bakery, which was step family's business, was my step family's business, very known in north very well known in north norfolk. holt, where the royals shop. we owned a 13,000 square foot super market. but we also had one in aylsham. and in 2015, would you ever believe that our post office, one post office of the year at the retail oscars? and i met paula vennells the following year. and i met paula vennells the following year . wish i had known following year. wish i had known what i know now . yeah. so yes,

what i know now. yeah. so yes, i ran two post offices and a post office van back in 2014 to 2019. >> when did i say when did you become aware of this scandal? duncan because that's part that's what our viewers often get in touch with and say, surely mps is it? why does surely mps knew, is it? why does it to take this this drama, it have to take this this drama, to front and centre of to bring it front and centre of everyone's attention? >> really when it became >> i think really when it became mainstream and that was pretty much into the summer of 2020, when boris johnson ordered the pubuc when boris johnson ordered the public inquiry , which then got public inquiry, which then got upgraded to a statutory inquiry. and to be absolutely honest with you, prior to that, you i you, prior to that, you know, i knew very little about it. i can still remember one of my very first surgery appointments was to when all elected to get when we were all elected in which was christmas in 2019, which was christmas time. and don't forget , we were time. and don't forget, we were then into a pandemic by about february mark steyn those very, very early weeks, having a, uh, postmaster come and see me, who was one of the one of the groups in the 555 who told me all about

what had happened. and that brought back huge memories , brought back huge memories, because for me, in twofold a, i can still remember my stepfather, who is passed away just before i was elected, coming into my office going bananas about why the tills were down and why they didn't balance and said, look, the post office, these people, they're all ladies, they're fantastic ladies. there's honest as the day long. they've hunted, day is long. they've hunted, searched the high and low in the post office and can't the post office and can't find the difference. me think . difference. it makes me think. now, still not now, was horizon still not working properly? know, as , working properly? you know, as, as late as sort of 2016, 2017. but it was really mainstream back in that summer of 2020. and ever since then, i've campaigned endlessly because it has a personal meaning to me. >> you've got a long history with the post office. um duncan, how? i mean, the reputation of the post office is , is in the the post office is, is in the gutter, frankly, because as a lot of people think, somebody has lied or misled or or dissembled because all those postmasters and postmistresses ,

postmasters and postmistresses, did it not occur to anybody within the post office that some of them must be telling the truth, or even the majority party? and yet we know they were allowed to go to court on the bafis allowed to go to court on the basis that the were being basis that the courts were being told only people who could told the only people who could access horizon system access the horizon it system were the postmasters and post offices, when that was, frankly, simply an outand out lie . simply an outand out lie. >> i can remember it was it was the second episode, wasn't it, of the mr bates? uh episode, you know, just over after the new yean know, just over after the new year, when this post office union member was led into the sort of, you know, death star type chamber inside fujitsu where they were told, oh, yes, we can happily go into horizon and alter the figures and the subpostmaster will never know we were ever in there . i mean, that were ever in there. i mean, that was absolute shocking and staggering and it just blows wide open that, of course, how much was that happening on an industrial scale of fujitsu employees collecting numbers from behind the scenes and of

course, it just that i mean, for me , i've raised in parliament me, i've raised in parliament six times. look at the record. when are we going to look and hold the jitsu accountable for their actions? when are we going to get them to compensate their own multi, multi, multi billion pound organisation . they need to pound organisation. they need to be coughing up as well and contributing to this and of course always the answer at the despatch box was wait until the inquiry has its course. well inquiry has run its course. well that course is nonsense that now of course is nonsense because we've seen metropolitan police start to say that we are investigating something we don't know. what is it? individuals is it the corporate post office, is it the corporate post office, is it fujitsu? and of course kevin hollinrake, who is a decent man , hollinrake, who is a decent man, really good minister has now, you know, quite clear with all his thoughts at the despatch box. so for many of us who've been on about this for many years, it's been last week was a very positive week. um, but it of course, it brings up huge, painful memories for so many of those, you know, supposed masters, men and women who lost

absolutely everything . absolutely everything. >> duncan, when you consider that and you know that how this program has really lit a fuse, hasn't it, in the country, the outrage that people feel that people lost their homes, their marriages in some cases, god help us, their lives is the idea that perhaps they will not be a criminal sanction in against some of the people involved in what clearly was a corporate cover up, there has to be some form of at least proper for full scale criminal investigation . scale criminal investigation. ian i think so. >> i think it's the only way we will get proper closure though , will get proper closure though, you know, clearly you have to have an investigation . and so have an investigation. and so the investigation will highlight which executives in the post office, which executives in fujitsu, which, you know, potentially senior managers as well, knew what was going on and covered information up. we already know. i mean, last week on gb news, i was having an interview and there was a gentleman , i think, from a gentleman, i think, from a company called i think first

sight, which was ordered to investigate these shortfalls within the post office. he said that after presenting the findings to the post office board, they basically terminated his contract. he didn't do any more work for the post office. you know, look, there is no smoke without fire as far as i'm concerned in life. some thing and somebody knows what went on and somebody knows what went on and there was industrial scale covering up, i believe , by this. covering up, i believe, by this. i think that's pretty obvious from just everything that has come to light. but as i've said in parliament the other day, one of the very, very easy things i asked was we still do not know how much money was taken unlawfully from the thousands of postmasters who were asked to cough up money. now, even the most basic accounting can work out that if the average person you know was done for ten, 20, 30,000, we know some people were asked to order to pay £70,000 and there were thousands of them. this number that the post

office took, which went into their accounts, goodness knows where it disappeared and it could be up to 100 million that they took ofsted from people. i've asked for the basic go back to the post office, find that number and what is it? i think every single time we start to turn over another stone in this saga, we find more uncomfortable truths . so yeah, saga, we find more uncomfortable truths. so yeah, i'm saga, we find more uncomfortable truths . so yeah, i'm fully truths. so yeah, i'm fully behind having a criminal investigation into this because i do believe we will find some absolute appalling character behaviour . behaviour. >> absolutely. we've just been watching live scenes of the meeting in westminster. you could see in the background on the on the second row, actually , the on the second row, actually, that hamilton, joe that joanne hamilton, joe hamilton, who is the character in the drama, she's played by monica dolan, one of the key figures in this. and we're going to go live to this when mr bates himself is giving evidence this morning . do you think you would morning. do you think you would like to see him awarded in some way? duncan i mean, a lot of people are calling for sir

bates. yeah to take off ed davey and give it to survey are very good. >> do you really mean that ? >> do you really mean that? >> do you really mean that? >> well, look, you know, i mean , >> well, look, you know, i mean, i've been reading some of the articles that you've been writing, andrew. i think they're very, good. there very, very good. i think there are questions be are serious questions to be asked about a number of, uh , asked about a number of, uh, ministers are culpable in ministers who are culpable in this whole situation , you know, this whole situation, you know, to just blindly follow what they were told by, uh, civil servants or even i think you're right. >> i think we've got, um, we lost duncan. i think we might have frozen. we've lost duncan baken have frozen. we've lost duncan baker, north tory, mp for baker, mp for north tory, mp for nonh north norfolk, who was a subpostmaster. >> he ran his family, ran two >> he ran to his family, ran two post offices and he says they should be prosecuted. but i like that idea. strip the knighthood off of ed davey, the lib dem leader who was post office minister 2010, who leader who was post office mini no ' 2010, who leader who was post office mini no purpose 2010, who leader who was post office mini no purpose in 2010, who leader who was post office mini no purpose in meeting nho leader who was post office mini no purpose in meeting you, said no purpose in meeting you, mr bates. why would i post office? everything's fine . and office? everything's fine. and give to alan bates. give it to alan bates. >> quite right. us >> yeah. quite right. let us know this know your thoughts. this

morning. vaiews@gbnews.com. now at least 60 tory mps have backed amendments to toughen the rwanda bill legislation , which is going bill legislation, which is going to be debated this afternoon . to be debated this afternoon. >> well, let's go to chris hope. can guide us through this minefield , which chris minefield, which is what chris rishi sunak the prime minister, is negotiate . chris, is trying to negotiate. chris, you've got, on one hand, you've got, on the one hand, tory like, um, mark francois tory mps like, um, mark francois , who's regularly on this program, and leigh anderson, who we spoke to earlier, um, who's of course, of this parish who want it to be tougher, they want to keep the european judges noses firmly this. they noses firmly out of this. they want to limit the right of appeal. and then you've got mps on the other side. like on the other side. people like robert buckland, law robert buckland, a former law chancellor, who , alarmed at the chancellor, who, alarmed at the idea, we might keep the european judges out of the process because they feel we would be then in breach of our international conventions. how does rishi marry these two does rishi sunak marry these two warring . warring sides. >> well, andrew, that's very well summarised. this is politics where there's no easy answers. the pm is walking down

answers. the pm is walking down a very narrow ledge here between the right of the party, which wants him to firm up, make tougher, make more unlikely that, can frustrate that, uh, lawyers can frustrate attempts to send illegally arrived migrants to rwanda. deport them against the left of the party, which will not allow any or will say it will not allow any amendments to it to this um, laid , of course, this bill. um, laid, of course, will vote against it. um, and what rwanda, of course, the end country which says if you go any further this, you risk further than this, you risk collapsing the treaty signed a few months ago by by james cleverly out there. the memorandum of understanding, if you remember that before christmas. so it's very, very christmas. so it's a very, very delicate balance he's got, of course, for gb news yesterday. um, the pm told our viewers that he will be willing to overrule so—called pyjama injunctions. section 39 orders, when the european court of human rights tries to prevent flights taking off, he says he will do it. but for the right of the party, nothing in writing. and that's the challenge he's got. we've got lee anderson and brendan clarke—smith, course, last clarke—smith, of course, last night on gb news patrick

christys show telling the pm in terms that they're not rebelling, but they want to they want to beef up this this legislation. they're both in red wall seats. they know the importance of making this work for the government. the pm himself told us that gb news he gets the importance of it. um, but here we have mps on the right the party. red is right of the party. red wall is trying to make work him. right of the party. red wall is tryinwhile1ake work him. right of the party. red wall is tryinwhile i've work him. right of the party. red wall is tryinwhile i've beenrk him. right of the party. red wall is tryinwhile i've been on, him. right of the party. red wall is tryinwhile i've been on, i've�*n. um, while i've been on, i've received a whatsapp message from a rebel source close to the so—called so—called fire families. andrew and bev that this the groups who are looking at to against the at trying to rebel against the government tomorrow, government today and tomorrow, they're talks they're saying that urgent talks continue would be sad, continue. it would be sad, unfortunate and politically damaging for the government to pursue a strategy that sees them lose support many lose to the support of so many colleagues such an important colleagues on such an important issue, in light issue, especially in the light of some dreadful polling overnight and yesterday from yougov in the daily telegraph >> okay. all right. thank you chris. chris hope they're down in our westminster studio still to come. we are waiting for the real life alan bates to talk

about office scandal. about the post office scandal. we'll as it we'll bring you that as it happens, britain's happens, this is britain's newsroom on

sunday mornings from 930 on gb news. who's . news. who's. >> what's the time? the time is 1025 with britain's newsroom on gb news andrew pearson bev turner. >> so the rate of unemployment in the uk has remained unchanged at 4.2, wage growth has at 4.2, while wage growth has continued slow to 6.6. continued to slow to 6.6. >> well joins in the studio is

our business and economics edhon our business and economics editor, liam halligan probably crunch into those figures. liam, that saw yesterday that huge poll we saw yesterday was rumpus about who i love. was big rumpus about who i love. >> it when he asked me things that you didn't know was coming, it's i love it gone. >> i love it gone. >> i love it gone. >> but buried the poll, >> i love it gone. >think, buried the poll, >> i love it gone. >think, was buried the poll, >> i love it gone. >think, was the jried the poll, >> i love it gone. >think, was the suggestion poll, >> i love it gone. >think, was the suggestion that, i think, was the suggestion that the tories on the economy are caught a bit with labour in caught up a bit with labour in terms more trust in caught up a bit with labour in terthe more trust in caught up a bit with labour in terthe economy more trust in caught up a bit with labour in terthe economy or ase trust in caught up a bit with labour in terthe economy or as trusted] caught up a bit with labour in terthe economy or as trusted on on the economy or as trusted on the economy, whereas a few weeks ago, a few months they were ago, a few months ago, they were way labour. ago, a few months ago, they were wayso labour. ago, a few months ago, they were wayso had)ur. ago, a few months ago, they were wayso had been about the >> so that had been about the only of comfort that poll. >> e’- e'- poll. >> day for american >> a big day for american politics trump's storming politics with trump's storming the caucuses. where am the iowa caucuses. where am i going with this? and of course, it bill clinton's it was, uh, bill clinton's former chief adviser , james former chief adviser, james carville, who coined the phrase, it's the economy, stupid, because it is the economy. stupid. yeah, i love politics. you love politics, but you and i both know the economy drives. politics drives voting. and as the economy gets better, the incumbent government will always almost always benefit. and that's why sunak has decided to go long, because he's hoping the economy gets better as inflation

comes down. hopefully interest rate comes down and then the tories get the benefit of that. but everyone has a plan until you get a smack in the mouth as mike tyson once said, the great ferocious boxer and rishi sunak's plan of going long because the economy will improve this year to generate a feel good factor, may be derailed by geopolitics, by high oil prices, by the boats . so this is the by the boats. so this is the backdrop . this is the backdrop backdrop. this is the backdrop because if you'd have asked me two months ago, of course, interest rates are going to come down in 2024. of course, inflation is going to come down now. we don't because there now. we don't know because there may energy price spikes may be energy price spikes because it's kicking off in because it's kicking it off in the sea or the red sea , and the red sea or the red sea, and in persian gulf, in particular the persian gulf, the hormuz, which is the straits of hormuz, which is where 25% of the world's oil goes banging on the goes banging on about the straits. haven't indeed straits. i haven't i have indeed , all laughed at me. , and you all laughed at me. don't i never laugh don't worry, i never laugh and we forget no we shouldn't forget there's no let up in and russia. let up in ukraine and russia. that's on the burner. that's just on the back burner. yeah, was ukraine and yeah, and yet it was ukraine and russia helped drive russia which helped drive inflation a year in inflation to a 40 year high in the right up 11.

the first place. right up 11. but that was late 2022. inflation topped 11% in this country. it's now on the latest data. the november data 3.9. it's kind of right the way down. it's kind of right the way down. it's still almost double the bank of england's 2% target. but because inflation has been coming down so quickly, the mortgage companies, the banks have decided that the next move in interest rates is down from 5.25% from the bank of england, when that eventually happens, and interest rates will and then interest rates will fall steadily. but we don't know if that's going to happen . if that's going to happen. that's wage data is that's why today's wage data is so important. right. as bev said, in the three months to november wages were up by 6.6. that's down from 7.3% above inflation during the three month period. yeah, real wage increases, good for gb news viewers and listeners. for good employees everywhere. finally, we're getting some real wage increases, but the bank of england may decide with this possibility of an oil price spike with wage data still high, they may decide that they're not going to lower interest rates

for some time yet. >> what is going on with this unemployment rate ? because we've unemployment rate? because we've got millions of people who could be working of working age, who aren't working. why are they not going some these going and getting some of these jobs? going and getting some of these job�*because general, a long >> because in general, a long terme and particularly terme trend, and particularly dunng terme trend, and particularly during lot during covid, we've signed a lot of people off sick bev. there are 3 or 4 million people who are 3 or 4 million people who are part of the workforce, who are part of the workforce, who are economically active and signed off sick. it's not difficult to get a doctor's note as as lots people will tell as as lots of people will tell you . but look, it's still the you. but look, it's still the case that unemployment is low, the economy is still not in an early 80s or even an early 90s situation. remember when we were kids? unemployment 10% plus you'd be 40. song i'm a 1 in 10. we're nowhere near that. it's more like three 4. so that's good for the tories and for good you if labour win for them as well . but we you if labour win for them as well. but we do you if labour win for them as well . but we do still have you if labour win for them as well. but we do still have an inflation problem in this country and that's why expectations of one, two, maybe three interest rate cuts by the bank of england before an october november election may be

knocked off course. as i said, rishi sunak had a plan. his plan may not come to fruition. the other thing, if you go back in history, liam, to the 97 election, in run up to the election, in the run up to the election, in the run up to the election, the economy was entering into a golden period. >> ken clarke, the chancellor, handed over the golden inheritance blair and inheritance of tony blair and gordon because the sense gordon brown because the sense was people felt they could was that people felt they could take the risk because the economy strong , was doing economy was strong, was doing well. try that now. well. we can try that now. >> the national debt was the national gdp, national debt was 30% of gdp, right? now 98. over 100% on right? it's now 98. over 100% on international definitions , we international definitions, we slightly tweak the numbers in this country . we're good at that this country. we're good at that to make it look good. it is a very different situation . you very different situation. you and political and i were political correspondents. we worked together back in the day in those blair blair days, those early blair blair days, and it was really there was a sense that the economy was on the up after all the traumas of the up after all the traumas of the 80s and the early 90s. and guess what? britain was a world class economy back then . but you class economy back then. but you know i don't like talking know what? i don't like talking the uk i still have huge the uk down. i still have huge faith british entrepreneurial faith in british entrepreneurial ability. and so does the rest of

the world. that's why we still attract more inward investment than any other country by than any other eu country by miles. despite brexit and i, it strikes me that it's clear britain is growing faster than the eurozone. it's not growing nearly as fast as it should. we still do have a productivity problem, and maybe we've still got an inflation problem, but the economy is by means the economy is by no means a basket case and it might yet recover fast and surprise us all. on the upside , as they say. all. on the upside, as they say. but lot of it depends now not but a lot of it depends now not on the economy , stupid. but when on the economy, stupid. but when we look red sea . yeah, we look at the red sea. yeah, geopolitics. stupid >> what was it macmillan said about the most difficult part of government events, my dear? events dear boy, maybe events dear boy, dear boy, maybe in version it's my dear andrew. >> we're inclusive here on gb news. >> right, liam? thank you. >> right, liam? thank you. >> things like that i am to you. >> things like that i am to you. >> very good to see you. okay >> very good to see you. okay >> still to come shooing us off now, i know we've got to move on. >> 011. on. >> too. honestly, dear on. too. honestly, dear boys, >> you too. honestly, dear boys, still come? we said still to come? we said yesterday, didn't we, about the fact was fact that queen elizabeth was

apparently furious when harry and said they were going and meghan said they were going to daughter. well, it to call their daughter. well, it was claiming she lilibet to call their daughter. well, it was cl.itning she lilibet to call their daughter. well, it was cl.it her| she lilibet to call their daughter. well, it was cl.it her blessing. lilibet to call their daughter. well, it wasthat'sier blessing. lilibet to call their daughter. well, it wasthat's whatzssing. lilibet to call their daughter. well, it wasthat's whatzssing. licross >> that's what she was cross about. right. we're going to >> that's right. we're going to be that because be talking about that because this little. this story has evolved a little. we've little more glimpse we've had a little more glimpse into why all that after into why all that and more after your news sophia your morning's news with sophia wenzler. >> thank you. bev, it's 1032. >> thank you. bev, it's1032. i'm sophia wenzler in the gb newsroom, which is sunak is geanng newsroom, which is sunak is gearing up to face a potential rebellion later, as the rwanda bill returns to the commons, lee anderson and brendan clarke—smith are among more than 60 tory mps who are backing moves to toughen up the flagship migration policy . rebelling moves to toughen up the flagship migration policy. rebelling mps fear courts will be overwhelmed with appeals from asylum seekers earmarked to be deported , earmarked to be deported, although the prime minister promises to allocate over 100 judges to these cases , lee judges to these cases, lee anderson bill needs to anderson says the bill needs to be fine tuned . be fine tuned. >> we just feel that there's a few areas in the bill that could be strengthened to make sure that it's watertight . and let's that it's watertight. and let's not forget, we're less than a

year away from general year away from a general election now, and the last thing i want there is a labour election now, and the last thing i wcoming there is a labour election now, and the last thing i wcoming in ere is a labour election now, and the last thing i wcoming in and s a labour election now, and the last thing i wcoming in and repealingr election now, and the last thing i wcoming in and repealing the lot coming in and repealing the rwanda scheme and opening the borders to 100,000 odd illegal migrants here, which they will do if they sign up to any eu sort of deal. so this is not about us rebelling. it's about us saying, you know what the bill most of it is satisfactory. you just need to beef it up a little bit. >> post—office and fujitsu bosses are being questioned by mps. the business and trade committee has assembled to look at the appeal processes in place to help overturn wrongful convictions. in the post office scandal, as well as the process for delivering fair and timely compensation for the victims wrongly . subpostmaster wrongly accused. subpostmaster alan bates will represent more than 700 victims who were convicted by giving evidence on the impact the scandal has made on their lives. the impact the scandal has made on their lives . there are on their lives. there are further signs that the jobs market is cooling as wages growth has slowed . new figures growth has slowed. new figures from the office for national statistics found that the uk's

average weekly wage growth eased to 6.6% in the three months to november . to 6.6% in the three months to november. it's to 6.6% in the three months to november . it's the lowest rate november. it's the lowest rate since january last year. it means pay packets grew faster than the rate of price rises . than the rate of price rises. cars and parts of the uk face another day of cold temperatures after overnight lows dropped below freezing. the met office says. a cold plunge of arctic air has moved south across the whole country over the past few days, making it 5 to 6 degrees lower than usual for this time of year. it's issued yellow warnings for snow and ice covering northern areas of england, parts wales and all england, parts of wales and all of scotland, which remains in place midnight . and you place until midnight. and you can get more on all those stories by visiting our website at news.com . at gb news.com. >> for stunning gold and silver coins, you'll always value rosalind gold proudly sponsors the gb news financial report , the gb news financial report, and here's a quick snapshot of

today's markets . today's markets. >> the pound would buy you 1.26 for $2 and ,1.1611. the price of gold is £1,614.96 per ounce, and the ftse 100 is . at 7550 points. the ftse 100 is. at 7550 points. >> rosalind gold proudly sponsors the gb news financial report . report. >> still to come this morning we are on alan bates watch. possibly one day sir alan bates, of course , the real life former of course, the real life former postmaster is going to be speaking out for the first time. any moment now. >> this is britain's newsroom >>

that i knew had dewbs& co weeknights from six. >> 11 no, sorry about that . >> 11 no, sorry about that. >> 11 no, sorry about that. >> 1030 you always did. >> 1030 you always did. >> i get there on time. >> i get there on time. >> i get there on time. >> i think he wants to get out of here quickly . so he goes, not how. >> now. >> nigel nelson's here, antonio, because we love them. it's 1039. britain's new zealand gb news andrew pearson. bev turner. >> are delighted, as >> so we are delighted, as andrew be joined by our andrew says, to be joined by our guests morning. guests this morning. nigel. antonia. go to antonia. but let's go first to a hotel in newquay has hotel in newquay which has launched scheme launched a groundbreaking scheme where anyone is out and where anyone who is out and about night and feeling about at night and feeling vulnerable could be directed to a space can seek a safe space where they can seek refuge and call for help. >> schemes being rolled out across of newquay. across the whole of newquay. very of the world, of very nice part of the world, of course, with the aim of turning it the country's first safe course, with the aim of turning it town. ountry's first safe course, with the aim of turning it town. ourry's first safe course, with the aim of turning it town. our south st safe course, with the aim of turning it town. our south weste space town. our south west england, england england, south west england reporter to find reporter jeff moody went to find out . out more. >> meet oleg ignatyev, owner of the newquay beach hotel, creator

of the town's fledgling safe space initiative. >> because we're open 24 seven, the idea was that if anybody is feeling threatened, they can pop in here and we can create a safe space. we'll call the authorities if required . we'll authorities if required. we'll isolate them if required . isolate them if required. >> the scheme created after >> the scheme was created after a worrying spate of incidents in the town. girls followed home at night. drunkenness low level attacks . within weeks of opening attacks. within weeks of opening up his hotel as a safe space, oleg decided to roll the scheme out over the whole town. qr codes will be displayed on lampposts , seats in public lampposts, seats in public toilets in every public space. >> when you scan the qr code , >> when you scan the qr code, we're creating a map which will show all the safe spaces that will show the nearest one to you, the one that's open and obviously you can link to your maps and you can get a directions there immediately. or you can call the safe space as well. >> once in a safe space, whether it be a bar , a hotel or a cab it be a bar, a hotel or a cab office, specially trained staff

can help to isolate the vulnerable. offer assistance and call the police if need be. the community is getting behind the project . next step to enlist as project. next step to enlist as many other businesses as possible who can open their doors at night to create a network of safe spaces. mark warren is newquay's business improvement district manager. >> we're looking at just about we're about to start recruiting businesses that want to get involved, but it is a simple scheme. it's but if i'm honest, it's just about being compassionate for compassionate and caring for the community. got amazing community. so we've got amazing businesses that would welcome people if they feel people to come in if they feel in need . and talking about in need. and we're talking about that, vulnerable moment that, that vulnerable moment when in a town centre when you're in in a town centre or know, you're or you're, you know, you're walking and you feel walking through and you feel a little awkward, you little bit awkward, maybe you need to make a phone call to mum to you or, or or more to pick you up or, or or more importantly, need to importantly, maybe we need to speak the police, but it's speak to the police, but it's just somewhere just having somewhere and somebody care . somebody that would care. >> last year , newquay hit the >> last year, newquay hit the headunes >> last year, newquay hit the headlines after a hotel in the town opened its doors to asylum seekers, leaving the community

divided and angry and with a feeling that things weren't as safe as they were before . now safe as they were before. now the council is on board, as are the council is on board, as are the police. the hope is enough. businesses sign up so there are safe spaces throughout the town and eventually to create a business model that can be rolled out across other towns and cities across the uk . jeff and cities across the uk. jeff moody, gb news is . moody, gb news is. >> i love that i didn't know about that. i hadn't seen that until it just went out there. so now am i missing something? nigel isn't that just a good news story? if people wanting to help each other just news story? if people wanting to help each otherjust good, help each other just good, right? that's it. move on. what's the next one? >> i mean, it's a bit like the kind of things that david cameron's big society we were trying to do, which went away and after it lasted a week. >> i mean, big society >> yeah. i mean, big society disappeared because he could never quite it never articulate quite what it meant . but never articulate quite what it meant. but was was a good meant. but it was it was a good idea. that idea. the idea was that by helping you help helping others, you help yourself was broadly the broadly the sort of the message behind

it. but this was the kind of thing that he wanted people to do. um to actually get together as a community dodi to help people who , who were vulnerable people who, who were vulnerable or , or less well off in that or, or less well off in that community, he and this kind of thing . i don't know how you thing. i don't know how you could knock it. the fact everyone is, is pitching in. >> tonya's got an angle. go on. tonya. >> well, the reason is and it was said in that report there that, you this all that, you know, this all happened of the it happened because of the it really because happened because of the it retthe because happened because of the it retthe migrant because happened because of the it retthe migrant hotel. because happened because of the it retthe migrant hotel. that's:ause of the migrant hotel. that's there. girls don't there. and young girls don't feel walking home any more. feel safe walking home any more. you a lot of you know, there's a lot of crossover stories going at crossover stories going on at the britain. know, the moment in britain. you know, people adding up people need to start adding up those joining those dots. you know, joining the it is a good news the dots. so it is a good news story. it's lovely that the community is coming together wanting people, but it's wanting to help people, but it's sad they have to. it is sad that they have to. and it is in the light of girls not feeling going having feeling safe going home, having to turn somewhere to go in and turn in somewhere because they've got people following they following them and they feel threatened, do. threatened, and i do. >> yeah , think you >> yeah, i think i mean, you know, that raised there know, that was raised there that, that culture change that, that, that culture change maybe in that area . maybe so quickly in that area. um, obviously i perhaps had

um, it's obviously i perhaps had an impact on this. um, it's obviously i perhaps had an impact on this . i mean, we an impact on this. i mean, we were saying when that was on, you know, why can't they just go into normal hotel that into any normal hotel at that time night or bar? but of time of the night or bar? but of course well, you would time of the night or bar? but of coursto well, you would time of the night or bar? but of coursto wein, you would time of the night or bar? but of coursto wein, in you would time of the night or bar? but of coursto wein, in the you would time of the night or bar? but of coursto wein, in the explain>uld have to go in, in the explain and you might bit silly and you might feel a bit silly and you might feel a bit silly and you might feel a bit silly and you have to be welcome. i think being followed, but think i'm being followed, but i don't think i'm being followed, but i dori: think i'm being followed, but i dori suppose some hotels will >> i suppose some hotels will say guv. yeah. say not here, guv. yeah. >> so if you're signed >> and so, so if you're signed up that up to the scheme that automatically you would be welcomed there, welcomed when you arrive there, they why you'd gone in. >> yeah. it, it removes that need for difficult need for a difficult conversation that conversation and gives you that time space feel , feel time and space to feel, feel safe yeah the more i safe i think. yeah the more i need to really process this and what this means. with you, what this means. i'm with you, tonya. shouldn't need tonya. we shouldn't have a need for wish we didn't for this. no, i wish we didn't need to have this. but as the mother of three teens and two of which the idea which are girls, i love the idea that could be all that this could be in all cities, on a nice cities, particularly on a nice all boys, actually. yeah very much so. >> girls. >> girls. >> boys. m1: mul % much so, yeah. >> all boys. very much so, yeah. >> all boys. very much so, yeah. >> mean, i'm glad this is >> i mean, i'm glad this is happening, why had happening, but why has it had to happening, but why has it had to happen need to look happen now? and we need to look at what we're doing to our society britain. really at what we're doing to our sociyeah. britain. really at what we're doing to our sociyeah. rightin. really at what we're doing to our sociyeah. uh. tin. really at what we're doing to our sociyeah. uh. movingreally at what we're doing to our sociyeah. uh. moving on.ly at what we're doing to our sociyeah. uh. moving on. um, so >> right. uh. moving on. um, so

big day to day for rishi sunak. >> right. uh. moving on. um, so big the to day for rishi sunak. >> right. uh. moving on. um, so big the rwandaor rishi sunak. >> right. uh. moving on. um, so big the rwanda plan.hi sunak. >> right. uh. moving on. um, so big the rwanda plan. thisinak. it's the rwanda plan. this crunch it going to make crunch vote. is it going to make any difference, nigel? is it in the end ? are the party just the end? are the party just going him and vote it through? >> i think will back him. >> i think they will back him. yeah, i'm pretty sure it will go through. should the i mean today the probably go the amendments probably won't go through. tomorrow the big day through. tomorrow is the big day because that the vote on because that is the vote on third reading, which is the entire bill. yeah. um, if the rebels vote it down, no, rwanda , rebels vote it down, no, rwanda, that's the end of it. that could be the end of his premiership. >> and well, and it will also bnng >> and well, and it will also bring down the government. >> . >> yeah. >> yeah. >> because flagship party. >> yeah. >> yeah. graham >> yeah. graham said >> yeah. graham said stop >> yeah. graham said stop the >> yeah. graham he said stop the boats. only he boats. this is his only way he thinks can the boats. thinks he can stop the boats. >> that's right. i think he's wrong, by the way, because i don't rwanda in the don't believe in rwanda in the first being affected. first place. as being affected. but from but however, um, from a political point of view, one political point of view, the one thing is if tomorrow thing he could do is if tomorrow it might lose. it looks like he might lose. i don't he will. but if it don't think he will. but if it does look it , he can don't think he will. but if it does look it, he can make does look like it, he can make it a confidence vote. mps it a confidence vote. tory mps would then all have to come on side and support him. um, it

would actually his authority would actually his authority would be weakened by doing it that way . but it is a that way. but it is a possibility, you know, the thing is, is, you know, he they're deaf >> the government are deaf to what the people want. even it's over 50% of rishi sunak own constituency. richmond in yorkshire, believe that that illegal immigrants should be removed without the right of appeal. yes. and you . poll has appeal. yes. and you. poll has just been done that of, uh, 516 constituency in england and wales, out of the 575 that we have believe that that legal immigrants, immigrants should be removed without right of appeal . removed without right of appeal. the british people are speaking . the british people are speaking. we voted you in. do as we say. stop this mamby pamby thing. you know what nigel wants is not what the british people want. because these polls are showing that the british people are sick, but can i just say we talk to ivan samson earlier? >> immigration lawyer. yeah. and he does a lot of human rights stuff lot, of course, on stuff and a lot, of course, on legal it's legal aid. and he said it's a very high for the appeal to very high bar for the appeal to happen. i don't believe he

happen. i don't believe him. he says they can go to say, my mental health. can't on mental health. i can't get on the be safe. i the plane and won't be safe. i don't is high bar and don't think it is a high bar and i think the appeal system is being exploited by being abused and exploited by the the the industry. that's called the human well i mean, human rights law. well i mean, the which is what these tory mps want the which is what these tory mps waryeah. mean , it's all very >> yeah. i mean, it's all very well. there is the law here well. but there is the law here and the issue all the way through is that rishi sunak believes that he's gone as far as he can within the bounds of international law. i'm not sure he's right. the idea about these rule 39 pyjama injunction is that stop the flights taking off at the last minute. if he ignores it, i think he already is in breach of international law. but that's what he says. he will do. good. um, well . well, will do. good. um, well. well, yeah. good. yeah, absolutely. but idea breaking the law but the idea of breaking the law is the bit that i find difficult i >> -- >> so france did it in december with a, with a deporting somebody. they ignored the european court. france did last in december . in december. >> well, i mean i'm not suggesting that france is right on that basis. that it's happens. yeah, it does happen . happens. yeah, it does happen. and in fairness, rishi sunak

says that he do that. he says that he will do that. he won't these last minute won't allow these last minute injunctions to stop a flight taking off. so i get that. the answer is if these people want the bill, and that's lee anderson and brendan clarke—smith who are trying trying to actually back amendments if they want the bill, they ought to keep it where it is at the moment. let the amendments go through today, get them voted down, vote for third reading tomorrow . that's third reading tomorrow. that's the the right political the that's the right political thing to do. personally, i'd vote against whole bill vote against the whole bill anyway rwanda is anyway because rwanda is unlikely to work the reality is, is unless we come out of the echr and rule ourselves , all of echr and rule ourselves, all of this is going to go on forever, costing us millions and billions of pounds. >> and i am sick of my hard earned taxes going to human rights lawyers. it's a big buck business. it is. we've had enough of and it's going to enough of it, and it's going to cost conservatives the cost the conservatives the election and i mean, i still say, and i know i'm alone in saying this, but i still think rishi sunak should go before the next election if you look at

those figures yesterday the those figures yesterday in the telegraph would have telegraph, who would you have taken over? >> that's taken over? >> gosh. anyway that's not my decision must have decision to make. they must have somebody would be more somebody that would be more popular with the public, somebody is a conservative. somebody that is a conservative. if it's a busted flush, if they're done anyway, according to poll, then throw to that poll, then throw everything it just you everything at it just so you could rid him and put could get rid of him and put someone else in. >> be boris, but he >> there would be boris, but he hasn't seat. >> there would be boris, but he haswell, seat. >> there would be boris, but he haswell, exactly.. >> there would be boris, but he haswell, exactly. so i mean, >> well, exactly. so i mean, bofis >> well, exactly. so i mean, boris couldn't back. liz boris couldn't come back. liz truss, i think we probably kemi badenoch. i mean, you if badenoch. well i mean, if you if the start going through, the tories start going through, through another leadership election now just before the general election , they really general election, they really ought to be just before if it's not until the end of the year, i still think that gives them time to get somebody in that those wavering tory voters who voted tory 40 years who tory for 20, 30, 40 years who get in our inbox all the time, they say we can't vote for divided parties, don't win elections, and all that does is make i make him even more divided. i think now, but think they want it now, but parties that want to win can win elections and the if elections and at the moment, if you've who are you've got the mps who are looking tory mps looking at the tory mps and going, with him in going, we cannot win with him in power course he also

power because of course he also bnngs power because of course he also brings with him the shadow and the hangover of lockdowns and covid that. covid and all of that. >> need somebody that wasn't >> you need somebody that wasn't implicated of implicated in that period of time am a new time to say, i am a new representative for this party. do you think ? do you think? >> but don't you think, though, if were to him and if they were to topple him and bnng if they were to topple him and bring another the bring in another leader, the clamour in clamour for an election in immediately would be overwhelming. i don't think it would be overwhelming. >> think be able to >> i think they'd be able to fight it off. i think rishi is unviable, right? no, the conservatives did not vote him in, you know, membership didn't. >> we're just going to have to we're just going to go to parliament joe hamilton, parliament because joe hamilton, who course, starring who of course, has a starring role mr. bates role in that tv drama, mr. bates versus the post office, she is now speaking for first time. now speaking for the first time. she played in monica she who she played in the monica dolan the dolan is the character is the actress in the drama. >> here she is. >> here she is. >> you'd like they say, oh, we'll justify that and justify that. and it just goes on and on and on and you must be in touch with others who are having similar experiences as you. yeah.i similar experiences as you. yeah. i mean, everything has to be with paperwork and be backed up with paperwork and yeah, it's just nonsense , you yeah, it's just nonsense, you know, what's what's the impact

on you of having to go through all of that over and over and over again ? well, i'm pretty over again? well, i'm pretty much out the other side, but so, you know, i'm fighting for the group that still haven't had or they haven't had what they had virtually nothing. i mean , i'm virtually nothing. i mean, i'm not privy to what they actually have had, but i've heard, you know, they've had tiny interims and i'm and literally they're in this factory of bureaucracy that just swallows up paperwork . just swallows up paperwork. >> mr bates , have you have you >> mr bates, have you have you had evidence and experience shared with you of what people are going through to try and finally get what they're owed in terms of redress ? terms of redress? >> well, i mean , i'm only >> well, i mean, i'm only involved with the glow group. the group litigation order group, the ones who, um, brought the court case against post office initially and who got left behind afterwards realistically. but eventually they're caught up. but .

realistically. but eventually they're caught up. but. i realistically. but eventually they're caught up. but . i people they're caught up. but. i people i mean , people have spent a lot i mean, people have spent a lot of time again with their lawyers, their lawyers have got their case already sorted in many instances , their cases have many instances, their cases have been submitted to the department. but they're sat there. they're not moving through. >> i mean, recently. >> i mean, recently. >> well, so we were given assurances that after 40 working days that cases would receive a first offer. >> well , generally, i know that >> well, generally, i know that most people haven't had first offer. i can speak first hand about my personal case. i mean, that was submitted towards the beginning of october. uh, i mean, today it will be the 66th day working day and allowing for christmas and new year that i'm still waiting for my first offer. and i'm being told that i won't receive anything or a first offer until the end of

this month, which will be 77 working days or almost double the expected, um, time . the expected, um, time. >> time after every thing you've been through. >> after all of this time, the delays are still dragging on. >> yeah, i mean, i, i hear a lot of stories about, um, that lawyers are. oh, sorry, government lawyers or the firms that government are using for lawyers are not happy about working extra hours or working at weekends or working evenings. but obviously, obviously isn't enough of a resource being put in at that end. at that end, to actually deal with these cases. and that's what's really frustrating . i know the lawyers frustrating. i know the lawyers that i'm using, which are doing deaung that i'm using, which are doing dealing with a lot of cases, have a huge team work and they're piling the cases through. but they're just not moving . they hit a dead end once moving. they hit a dead end once they go into into the

department. >> so are you saying that the people who are processing the claim are not busting a gut to actually get the job done ? actually get the job done? >> oh gosh. yes i mean, i mean, uh, after my after my claim gone in, uh, and mine's just in the queue like everyone else is not being dealt with specially at all, but i mean, uh, after mine had gone in, it took them, i think it was 53 days before they asked three very simple questions . i mean, it was questions. i mean, it was madness. the whole thing is madness. the whole thing is madness . madness. the whole thing is madness. it's not being driven and there's no transport agency behind it, which is even more frustrating. we you know, we do not know what's happening to these cases once they've disappeared . we're in there. disappeared. we're in there. >> i mean, i know we like red tape in this country, but i mean, this is insane. now it's bogged down. >> it absolutely bogged down in red tape . red tape. >> julie marsden, thank you very much , chair, and welcome to you much, chair, and welcome to you both . um the itv drama has

both. um the itv drama has undoubtedly provoked a huge response from the public. all across the country. um empathy for the incredible , dreadful for the incredible, dreadful situation you've been in for such a long time. and outrage on the same thing. and one of the things that strikes me and i think strikes a lot of people is that postmaster, after postmaster were telling the same story . they were in the same story. they were in the same position telling their truth, telling the truth, and were not believed and in fact were told that you are the only one. if people have watched that drama and are thinking to themselves with incredulity, how on earth could this happen? what's your assessment and what would you tell people who watch that you're from your experience? how on earth could that have happened ? alan, can i start with happened? alan, can i start with you ? you? >> how would it happen ? um. uh >> how would it happen? um. uh i really think it was because of post office. i mean, when you take on a sub post office, you

actually invest a large amount of money in that business. and as happened in my case, they when they fell out with me, they walked off with that amount of money and i think a lot of people feel there's a financial gun held to their head. if they start kicking off or start raising too many, uh, problems with post office and cases like mine, cases like lee's , i mean, mine, cases like lee's, i mean, these become reasonably high profile in the area. and post office like to push them through or they used to like to push them through. i don't know if they still do as examples, as warnings to other to keep your head down and do as you're told. >> well, what about you , jane? >> well, what about you, jane? >> well, what about you, jane? >> i was i was the opposite. they they convinced me that it was fault . and i wasn't was all my fault. and i wasn't tech savvy at all back in back 20 years ago. and yeah, they convinced me it was my fault. and kind of it was the and that kind of it was the before the of social media. before the days of social media. so you felt like were.

so you felt like you were. i really was alone . and i thought really was alone. and i thought i must have pressed something in reverse, then reverse, something that then doubled as the next day. and yet i just thought i'd made doubled as the next day. and yet ijust thought i'd made a hash i just thought i'd made a hash of it. but when an ultimately i went to court and it made the national papers and people rang me up after seeing the piece in the paper , and i realised it the paper, and i realised it wasn't me. it wasn't just me , wasn't me. it wasn't just me, then it just makes you so angry that, you know, they'd literally gaslit me for about three years, that you know, and told me we're not into a basket case, but pretty much , um, and then i just pretty much, um, and then i just that lit a fire. um, and. yeah, thank goodness we had the pubuchy thank goodness we had the publicity because we joined up. but you know, that's it's wrong, but it's taken this long and this much money to get to where we are today. and i you know, i know a lot of the group and they are literally falling apart waiting for the end of this to be able to put it behind them. so so yes. >> so the turning point is not

feeling alone and but actually , feeling alone and but actually, i mean these are we use terms like the post office and fujitsu but actually you're dealing when you were going through this still are going through this. you're dealing with individual people . can you explain how that people. can you explain how that felt that that that you were up against, you were talking to individual people, but you couldn't get through to the big institutions that you're actually dealing with it . it's actually dealing with it. it's very hard to imagine how that must have been. >> yeah. and a lot of people then went to their mps because that was alan's brainchild. to go to your mp. i mean, fortunately, i had james, but not all mps listened , you know, not all mps listened, you know, because you kind of think the post office is trusted. and what, they've pleaded guilty in court. i mean, who court. so who i mean, who believes you know, i mean, believes you? you know, i mean, i was lucky james was curious and had some dealings with and had had some dealings with the chinook failings. so he he got curious because he had four

people in his constituency . but people in his constituency. but i think it's the feeling that nobody's listening. you know, when you say you've got a problem, you just need people to listen . mm mm. listen. mm mm. >> and do you think , alan, that >> and do you think, alan, that your experiences and this process that's still going, being here today and the inquiry, do you think that that will help stop miscarriages of justice? yes. and repetitions of this kind of scandal? >> i think you talking about broadly on other instances or whatever . broadly on other instances or whatever. um, in which case i hopeit whatever. um, in which case i hope it sends a warning shot across the bows of these big corporate actions that what they what they actually do and decide. and the way they, they work are really affect people right down at the front line of their organisations. and um, it and i think it's one of the failings that has been with a lot of the other things like the banking scandals or blood

scandals, people in high in jobs of i don't know, high responsibility that they're not being held to account at the end of the day and this i'm hoping in this particular instance that people are held to account and that will demonstrate to others around the board with what do you think this experience will help in the future? >> yeah, definitely . i mean, >> yeah, definitely. i mean, it's almost like the other way round to what happened to lee. hopefully if people get held to account, it might warm not account, it might warm them not to this to ordinary people to do this to ordinary people again. okay. again. yeah okay. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> chair, can we just check? um, alan, when it comes to fujitsu , alan, when it comes to fujitsu, what is their culpability in this and what is the compensation that you think they owe? frankly to the british taxpayer and indeed to you? well i think this is very much a question for, for selwyn and the

inquiry to answer. >> um, my gut feel on this, having looked at lots of paperwork over the years , is , paperwork over the years, is, you know, how much do covid post office really know in the early days and how much did government really know in the early days about what was happening at fujitsu ? and i think everyone is fujitsu? and i think everyone is going to be surprised about how much was known . um, but i mean, much was known. um, but i mean, that's for selwyn to establish with the inquire . with the inquire. >> are you comfortable with taxpayers money being spent on fujitsu right now ? fujitsu right now? >> i don't know what the other opfions >> i don't know what the other options are. yeah. do we have other other it suppliers big enough. it suppliers in this country. and i believe they're quite entrenched in an awful lot of defence systems and a whole host of, um , other, other host of, um, other, other systems as well . systems as well. >> so, so any perspective on that? >> well, i pretty much concur

with that. but he, you know , um, with that. but he, you know, um, yeah, i guess so. winners is where it's at. he'll find out who was culpable through on the journey because it goes back so long. he needs to get to the bottom of who knew what when and then if anything criminal has taken place that they should face prosecution and they should share. if it's proved they're culpable, they should have their share of the compensation , then, share of the compensation, then, you know, they should pay their share. >> thank you. if i if i may please if i may just add something to that. >> uh , it's i mean , you're going >> uh, it's i mean, you're going back 20 odd years when this happened. i should imagine a number of , happened. i should imagine a number of, um, staff would happened. i should imagine a number of , um, staff would have number of, um, staff would have changed place. there were been big changes in in the company. um, so, uh , um, holding those um, so, uh, um, holding those currently. um to account for, for what people did 20 years ago, it might be seem a little stiff if they can actually show

that the organisation organised station has changed and that it is willing to own up and look after , i.e. compensate or repay after, i.e. compensate or repay government for what's happened in the past . government for what's happened in the past. thank you , thank in the past. thank you, thank you joe. >> you took your to case the court of appeal. in the end , did court of appeal. in the end, did you do that via the criminal cases review commission? >> yes. eventually it took a long time. >> it took a long time. >> it took a long time. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> they waited for justice fraser, what was your experience of the criminal cases review commission process ? well, if i'm commission process? well, if i'm honest, i applied and i didn't hear anything for years. literally years. and every now and again, you'd get a three month letter saying we're still looking at it, we're still looking at it, we're still looking at it, we're still looking at it. and then it became apparent that they were waiting for the, the, the high court litigation before they'd make up their minds over anything became apparent. >> did they tell you that or did

you work that out yourself? >> we work that out. yeah we did. we did hear on the grapevine they they grapevine there. they they wouldn't anything as was wouldn't do anything as it was so to the litigation sort. so close to the litigation sort. you know, the judgement coming out. they do anything you know, the judgement coming out. 'itey do anything you know, the judgement coming out. “it came do anything you know, the judgement coming out. “it came out do anything you know, the judgement coming out. “it came out, do anything you know, the judgement coming out. “it came out, when|ything you know, the judgement coming out. “it came out, when it hing you know, the judgement coming out. “it came out, when it got] until it came out, when it got to the court of appeal , the post to the court of appeal, the post office in your case conceded that they behaved improperly and the judgement of the court of appeal set out in details what was wrong with the process and why your conviction was unsafe. >> so mainly because they did it when they knew i hadn't done it. >> they they you went through that process. >> how what's your reaction to a piece of legislation that exonerates everybody, including those people who haven't gone through the process that you did? i mean, where does that leave you feeling? does that diminish your, um , acquittal by diminish your, um, acquittal by the court of appeal on that? >> i don't think it diminishes mine. but, you know, a bit of you thinks. but then something's got to happen because there's 900 cases, you know, it's. yeah

yeah. perfect. >> do i get the sense ? but >> do i get the sense? but you're not perfect. >> but i think it's the only way. okay >> um , ian lavery, thanks . >> um, ian lavery, thanks. >> um, ian lavery, thanks. >> uh, chair. good morning. uh, mr beatson and miss hamilton. i wonder the threat of a prison sentence. what uh, sort of impact that actually had on you? yeah, obviously, it must have been horrific. it really must have been horrific. i wonder if you could explain to the committee, you know, when you were actually on the help line trying to seek advice from the post office and you actually had your computer in front of you, and they were explaining how to remedy the issue. and then your deficit at, well, it doubled, i believe , right in front of your believe, right in front of your eyes. can you explain to the committee how we actually felt at that precise moment in time ? at that precise moment in time? >> um, i mean, at the time i

felt , um, >> um, i mean, at the time i felt, um, helpless when they told me i was the only one it had ever that was having problems . i had ever that was having problems. i just presumed it was me because, know, i didn't me because, you know, i didn't know any better. and i always thought they said, reverse this and reverse it. and i thought, oh, it'll all sort itself out. um, but it didn't. and it's you know, they kept my wages and then i remortgaged and put money in. and because i had such a long lease on the shop, um , i long lease on the shop, um, i knew if, if they sacked because they said they'll sack me. and then i thought , well, the whole then i thought, well, the whole thing will collapse. and i felt i had choice but to run with i had no choice but to run with it and keep putting money in absolutely desperate situation . absolutely desperate situation. >> and i mean, the, the reports and many of them might be exaggerated . exaggerated. >> i'm not sure to say that you're remortgage. yeah. twice borrowed money off your parents, etc. >> what a horrendous situation you find yourself in and you eventually repaid the money back to the post office. >> um, have you any idea where

that money went ? that money went? >> no, i've had it goes into the suspense account and then eventually it gets hoovered into, um, profit and loss. >> but how would you how would you feel ? you feel? >> uh, miss hampton, if you thought that your money was put into the post office accounts ? into the post office accounts? um, and the profits from that account when the dividend holders , whilst he was suffering holders, whilst he was suffering the way you were. >> uh, and potentially some top executives in the post office receive some of your money in terms of bonuses, bonuses ? terms of bonuses, bonuses? >> yeah. >> yeah. >> ironic, isn't it? >> ironic, isn't it? >> how how would that actually make you feel? honestly >> yeah. well it's sickening really , to be honest. um, the really, to be honest. um, the fact that we were, we were shouting so loud at one point and, and everything was known, and, and everything was known, and yet our money was just being played with you know, because they look profitable at one

point. and it was our money. >> thanks very much for that. uh, mr pierce, the last week the government announced a promised upfront payment offer of £75,000. um i wonder what your initial reaction is to that? what the reaction is from the people who who you've been in contact with and you know, well, many of them people will be taking up to £75,000. or do you believe that, uh, you know , like believe that, uh, you know, like there'll be a large proportion or what proportion ? in fact, do or what proportion? in fact, do you believe? well accept that or will, you know, march towards full compensation? >> um , i think they probably >> um, i think they probably will be some that it will suit in there. but, uh, at the moment i don't think there's any key detail that's been published about , about detail that's been published about, about it. so detail that's been published about , about it. so that detail that's been published about, about it. so that was my understanding . and the other understanding. and the other question about it is that the few cases that have gone through in the glow scheme , um, which i

in the glow scheme, um, which i was referred to as the low hanging fruit , which are the low hanging fruit, which are the low value ones . i mean, will they be value ones. i mean, will they be able to claim a top up to the £75,000 as well? uh, i mean, i think there's a lot of question to be answered about the scheme at present, and i don't think until they publish the details , until they publish the details, it's a bit hard to comment . it's a bit hard to comment. >> and the basically the, the huge question is, can a figure ever be calculated which will fully redress the, uh, the situation that so we're listening to the real mr alan bates talking to a select committee of mps with of course, his starring the other star of the tv drama, joe hamilton, joe hamilton , ian bates, of course, hamilton, ian bates, of course, played by toby jones , and she's played by toby jones, and she's played by toby jones, and she's played by toby jones, and she's played by monica dolan. >> and what's shocking about about about the real mr bates , about about the real mr bates, he first reported issues with

the post office horizon in 2000. he had his contract terminated in 2003. he still has not got his compensation anyway, 20 years later. >> this is mr bates. let's listen to him in the family along the way. >> they need to be assessed as part of this scheme, and it needs to be transparent and it needs to be transparent and it needs to be consistent across the whole board as well, because at present it's not included in at present it's not included in a subpostmasters claim . um, i a subpostmasters claim. um, i mean , i think when i've raised mean, i think when i've raised this in the past, government have said, oh, well, we do we do consider it when we're working it out, but it's not structured, it's not transparent and it needs to be introduced . and as needs to be introduced. and as far as the glow scheme goes, i think it probably only affects maybe a fifth or a sixth of all the claimants. maybe more. but it's around that that sort of figure. um so but i mean, you're right , this financial redress right, this financial redress will never will never put things

back for people. but this is money. this is something which i get annoyed about when people call it compensation. this is money that they that they are due . this is money that to put due. this is money that to put them back into a position that they would have been in had post office not done what it did to them. so it's not really compensation, which is why i keep calling it financial redress . sorry. redress. sorry. >> i think i think what you're seeing basically just sorry. just to conclude a lot of the money in the first place was yours. anyway and you're just getting it back . is that fair to getting it back. is that fair to say ? say? >> that's certainly a part of it. but it's also the loss as has been discussed before, it's the loss of the earnings that they got. it's the loss of their investment in their you know it's all this that they would have had in the future. thanks not just ukip. >> one of the recurring themes throughout this has been all of the people that thought that it was only happening them , and was only happening to them, and the that you

the gaslighting that you referred to happening. >> joe, the justice for subpostmasters alliance has obviously done some absolutely extraordinary work in convening those affected, supporting them and seeking justice. >> but i'm interested to know your role, your view of the role of the national federation of subpostmasters within this as surely there's alarm bells that should have been going on there and an expectation from their members that they would get support that didn't materialise. do you think an independent trade union could have made a difference here? if i could start with you, alan. oh, yeah. i mean , the federation were in i mean, the federation were in bed with post office from day one, and as far as i know, they probably still are because they're paid for lock, stock and barrel by post office and it should be entirely independent. >> it really has to be. i mean, it's utter madness. they refused . they've refused to support any support master in any legal

action against post office in fact, i believe it was involved in sorry is incorporated into their charter that they were not allowed to act against post office, otherwise they'd lose their funding . okay . their funding. okay. >> yeah. well, the only advice i got from them when i rang them up, when i knew they were well, i rang them up to arrange an audit. they said, well, we'll we'll arrange the audit. you just good just go find yourself a good criminal that was criminal lawyer. and that was the i got from them. the only help i got from them. and was no question of and there was no question of where's the money gone , you where's the money gone, you know, could it be this, could it be said, you go be that they just said, you go find a lawyer? i mean, find yourself a lawyer? i mean, they knew was inevitable. you they knew it was inevitable. you know, they up know, why didn't they stick up for yeah, are in for me? so, yeah, they are in bed post office, bed with the post office, unfortunately. justice unfortunately. and justice fraser's judgement bears that out. >> so do you believe that >> and so do you believe that they share some of the culpability for what's happened as i mean, they had a membership fee to work out that this was a widespread issue. >> they must have known , they

>> they must have known, they must have known, but it will come out of the inquiry. thank you . you. >> mr lavery has already covered the questions that i wanted to ask, and rightly so. but i just wonder if i could ask you both very briefly on the 17th of december, lord arbuthnot held an adjournment. westminster hall debate. and then on the 29th of june, 2015, andrew bridgen held a westminster hall debate. both of them i identified that the honzon of them i identified that the horizon scheme could be remotely accessed . both of them accessed. both of them identified the fact there were bugsin identified the fact there were bugs in the system and then, according to my timeline in 2017, both both in 2014. the second sight report response from the post office maintains remote access to horizon branch counts is impossible. then again, in 2017, the post office admits in court that previous assertions that remote access the horizon branch counts was impossible. how do you respond to that? when you were three, four, five, six, seven years right . calling out the fact that

right. calling out the fact that remote access was possible? i just i'd like to hear how you respond to that when both the people you were talking to in parliament, when you were raising it within your groups, i just wonder if you could add some comments to it. joe should we with you? we start with you? >> here we are, nine years after that, not sorted that, and it's still not sorted out. , how long have you out. i mean, how long have you got? it's. yeah, it's shocking that it's taken this long and cost this much money just for something that we've been banging on about for years . banging on about for years. >> mr bates . >> mr bates. >> mr bates. >> yeah. i mean , we've always >> yeah. i mean, we've always known that we were right. and it was just the post office decided to try and control the whole narrative over the years because of their power and money and all the all the rest of it. and they had the ear of politicians. they used to brief them, and they used to brief them, and they used an and it was very, very hard to, to battle against them . hard to, to battle against them. but we always knew we were right . but and there was a as we know now there's a major cover up

going on. the cover ups almost as worse as bad or sorry, it's far worse than the actual initial crime. and the prosecution of individuals in all of this . thank you , thank all of this. thank you, thank you chair. >> thank you. i just want to follow up on anthony's point just there. do you think the post office was naive and they just believed fujitsu , or do you just believed fujitsu, or do you think they were deliberate concealing something or was there something else? if i start with you, alan. >> yeah, i think post office didn't have the technical expertise at the outset when they brought this system in, and they brought this system in, and they very much relied upon their suppuer they very much relied upon their supplier to also be their it experts and advisers along the way . and i think that was way. and i think that was a major, major, larger decision , major, major, larger decision, an a major problem that they did realistically, even if they didn't have the in—house expertise , as they should have expertise, as they should have brought in a third party to

assist them along the way and not rely on fujitsu and was that your experience whenever you would call the help desk, for example, was it your experience that the help desk didn't have the capability and the knowledge to assist? >> well , i to assist? >> well, i didn't even know there was a horizon help desk. >> that's how helpful the national desk were. they didn't even tell me. they just said, oh, well, you do this and this and this, which made the whole thing no one ever thing worse. but no one ever told about the horizon help told me about the horizon help desk because when i took over, i took the post office over pre horizon, and i never had a not pre horizon but pre electronic and i never had a problem until it went electron . and i only it went electron. and i only ever dealt with the national help desk. but yeah they didn't tell me about the horizon help desk. so incredible . desk. so incredible. >> i just follow on from anthony's um question . are you anthony's um question. are you aware to date with the horizon system still being used of any continuing faults, has anyone approached either of you at any

point to ask whether or not the system that is still being used is resulting in faults? >> i mean, i've heard some things that, you know, i have no proof of but i've heard it's proof of it, but i've heard it's not brilliant. still not not brilliant. it's still not brilliant. so thank you, joe allen . allen. >> i mean, i've spoken to subpostmasters in the past who will give me examples of failings within the system. still so yes, it's still ongoing. thank you . ongoing. thank you. >> nothing else. thank you. >> nothing else. thank you. >> chair. uh, mr bates, miss hamilton, i first of all apologise . i hamilton, i first of all apologise. i might be hamilton, i first of all apologise . i might be one of the apologise. i might be one of the only people in the country who's yet to actually watch the itv drama. not through any deliberate choice, but with having young children. i'm having two young children. i'm stuck between paw patrol and many shows and evenings many other shows and evenings and normally fall asleep whilst trying get them to bed . thank trying to get them to bed. thank you for that. but my i know well that's jonathan gullis mp, conservative in the mp in the red wall will be struggling. >> according to that poll, the other day, to hold his seat , other day, to hold his seat, making an astonishing admission,

hasn't . yeah. hasn't seen the drama. yeah. >> shocks me to my core. >> which shocks me to my core. and it was following this itv drama seeing injustice drama and seeing the injustice that you and many others have had to suffer. and that's why i wonder. so as far as you're concerned, do you think, despite what mr hollinrake has said on the floor of the house and obviously in subsequent interviews about emergency legislation , about the legislation, about the processing scheme of the drama, actually bringing to the public's attention what you both had to go through as many, all the other victims , do you the other victims, do you actually truly believe justice will achieved? will ever be achieved? if i start hamilton, start with you, miss hamilton, first? well it'll never let my mum and dad see me have my conviction quashed. >> so to me, that's what it all looks like. but you know, apart from that , um, we need to see from that, um, we need to see deeds. not words. you can. you can say things, but i just think for everybody now to draw a line under this , the very minimum is under this, the very minimum is the group of the glow group who are still left looking for money. it needs to be fast tracked. this has to be a way of

applying a bit of common sense to this, and cutting out all the red tape . red tape. >> mr bates, sorry. >> mr bates, sorry. >> yeah, they've got joey's right. especially the glow . right. especially the glow. well, i mean, all of them, but i mean , the glow group, they've mean, the glow group, they've been at this many of us for 20 years or so , and they've got to years or so, and they've got to put this out, you know , i was put this out, you know, i was talking to one of the group at the weekend. she's 91 years old. how many more years has she got to wait for financial redress ? i to wait for financial redress? i mean, she got to wait till she gets a telegram from from the king. i just, you know, this is it's ridiculous. how long the system is holding this up. it is absolute madness. and it's very unfair and it's cruel. >> thank you. chair. >> thank you. chair. >> thank you very much indeed. let me just conclude with a couple of questions that we just need to that we just need to check, um , do you think that check, um, do you think that there are many victims still out there are many victims still out there who haven't yet come

forward ? mr bates , there are forward? mr bates, there are people's contacted me now who have had losses over the years and have disappeared . and have disappeared. >> and i i'm sending them on to lawyers these days. um but. so, yes, they are starting to come through again . through again. >> i had i had a text in the taxi on the way over from good morning britain this morning from someone who'd been to prison . um, and so i'm going to prison. um, and so i'm going to pass her on to neil, um, once i said, give me a chance. i'll get get out of this and i'll get back to you. and, um. yeah. so i think there are people out there and we've heard that some people who have taken financial redress didn't get legal advice when they put their claims in, and may therefore have been short changed. >> and is that your view, too, joe? >> yeah. well, for sure it will be. yeah. >> okay . mr bates, is that your perception? >> yes. yeah, i think so . >> yes. yeah, i think so. >> and so finally, what are the what are the key tests for the legislation? mr bates, what do

you think this legislation that the government has now promised must achieve ? must achieve? >> i'm sorry , which part of the >> i'm sorry, which part of the legislation ? legislation? >> this is liam byrne, the chairman of the committee. he's a former labour minister. he famously was the one who wrote, left a note for his successor in the coalition saying, sorry, the money's run out. he was chief secretary of treasury, but he's chaired lively exchange chaired a pretty lively exchange with our two heroes of with our, um, our two heroes of the post office, our. >> how will you judge it whether it's >> how will you judge it whether ifs enough >> how will you judge it whether it's enough ? it's good enough? >> well , i it's good enough? >> well, i suppose really, if it draws many more people out of the woodwork and that should come forward . come forward. >> yeah. do you know what would be ironic is if those people that just come forward will get their money before the group that fought for this . yeah. well that fought for this. yeah. well thank you very much indeed for your evidence today. >> after everything that you've been through, we are truly grateful for the evidence that you've given. you've told us that the process of redress is like being tried all over again.

>> you feel like you're the guilty one, you know, why should you? you know, i've not claimed for anything. i'm not entitled to. i'm lying about anything to. i'm not lying about anything , you know. but you have to back it all up with everything. it's like, yeah, they've got my tax returns. they can see, you know what's so difficult . what's so difficult. >> yeah. you've then gone to on tell us that you don't think , tell us that you don't think, frankly, the bureaucracy is working hard enough to speed up justice and redress . you've said justice and redress. you've said something that has got to happen. you've welcomed the idea of legislation, but you've also warned us that there are no details that have been published. there's no details about this £75,000 idea. and crucially, there's no transparency about it either. no no. so those are big questions that we need to put to the minister when we see him a little bit later on. but for now, thank you. thank that bnngs now, thank you. thank that brings this session to a conclusion. thank you. so much for your evidence. order order. >> so that was that was liam

byrne there. who was the chairman of the committee, former labour mp . former labour mp. >> we've got simon, an mp, former minister. >> sorry, minister, still >> sorry, former minister, still a thank you . we've a labour mp. thank you. we've got simon danczuk here. uh who is a former labour mp. um, so much to get through there, simon. i think what really struck me, and i don't know about is the nice about both of you, is the nice nature of joanne hamilton . even nature of joanne hamilton. even now, she's she was able to have that lovely, kind character taken advantage of. there's still no anger really emanating from her. she's just still saying, well, it would be ironic if the people who made claims now got their money before we have, she's at pains to make have, and she's at pains to make it clear it isn't it clear that it isn't necessarily for her. >> she accepted criminal >> she accepted a criminal record. she admitted to false accounting to £36,000 because she feared she was going to prison. and yet she's calm . yeah. >> joanne milton, alan bates there. i mean, the best of british patience. >> yeah. calm >> yeah. calm >> remaining positive considering what they've been through. quite incredible, really. and yet there's so many

other people need to be held accountable. and for viewers and listeners benefit. that's a select committee which scrutinises government. there are a number of select committees in parliament. they meet on a regular basis on different topics, and this one's looking at this scandal. >> it's one of the things it's one of the things that our democracy does really, really well. >> those select committees aren't they? they're often gripping way that you don't aren't they? they're often gripwithin way that you don't aren't they? they're often gripwithin the vay that you don't aren't they? they're often gripwithin the houset you don't aren't they? they're often gripwithin the house of ou don't aren't they? they're often gripwithin the house of commons. get within the house of commons. the that struck the other thing that struck me is are both pinning is that they are both pinning their hopes on the inquiry. is that they are both pinning their hopes on the inquiry . and their hopes on the inquiry. and even when joe was asked , do you even when joe was asked, do you think that fujitsu should pay some costs? and she some of these costs? and she said, , well, if it's proved said, well, well, if it's proved that are culpable, they that they are culpable, they should their share. i mean, should pay their share. i mean, if that was me, i'd be banging my fists on the table and saying, yes, but hang on, just. but but is she naive to think that that inquiry will find the result that she wants? well, i think i hope so. >> i think it may do, but i think the reason she's so cautious look, she's been, she's had fight really expensive had to fight really expensive lawyers the post lawyers hired by the post office. she to careful

office. so she has to be careful everything they because they everything they say because they will yeah. will come after her. yeah. that's trouble. they've that's the trouble. they've been intimidated. people. intimidated. these people. i really paid for by us, really expensive paid for by us, the because the post the taxpayer because the post office is still state owned. >> horrendous. office is still state owned. >> absolutely. . office is still state owned. >> absolutely incredible. this is probably the biggest is probably one of the biggest scandals britain's faced in scandals that britain's faced in quite a long time. scandals that britain's faced in qui'certainly time. scandals that britain's faced in qui'certainly tirour lifetime. >> certainly in our lifetime. >> certainly in our lifetime. >> absolutely . >> yeah, absolutely. >> yeah, absolutely. >> problem in britain as >> and the problem in britain as well, though, is that many of the inquiries that take place take a considerable amount of time and never reach any time and then never reach any significant conclusion. so i would worry about that at one point is that this point to note is that this select committee, the part that i enjoyed most about being a member of parliament, select member of parliament, was select committee you can committee work, because you can really into the really drill down into the detail . well, as they were detail. well, as they were doing, i understand the minister responsible. i think it's kevin o'leary. >> he's done very well. >> he's done very well. >> has. was sat in >> yes he has. and he was sat in the audience listening to all the audience listening to all the evidence was being the evidence that was being given, very unusual. so given, which is very unusual. so it you how seriously the it shows you how seriously the government are taking it. and finally , i think will see finally, i think we will see some action and some justice for those people . some action and some justice for tho if people . some action and some justice for tholz people. some action and some justice for tho i; peopi don't share you. >> i don't i don't share you. >> i don't i don't share you. >> i don't i don't share you. >> i think it will. >> i think it will.

>> i think the clamour from the public, rage, the anger public, the rage, the anger is such. palpable. public, the rage, the anger is suc i. palpable. public, the rage, the anger is suci don'tialpable. public, the rage, the anger is suci don't share le. public, the rage, the anger is suci don't share your optimism, >> i don't share your optimism, fellas. were fellas. i'm sorry people were subjected unfairprosecutions subjected to unfair prosecutions on on the basis of a lie. >> people are fed up with the fact that it's the taxpayer bailing the compensation. bailing out the compensation. fujitsu, billion, fujitsu, worth 160 billion, cough . but we need to know cough up. but we need to know who lied . who put those men and who lied. who put those men and women in court on the basis of a lie. we need to know who it is and they need to be prosecuted . and they need to be prosecuted. and we're going to we're and we're just going to we're being are being told now fujitsu are actually speaking at this public inquiry, running inquiry, which has been running since 2020, and stated you might be ready . be ready. >> i am personally appalled . >> i am personally appalled. >> i am personally appalled. >> of course you are. >> by the evidence that i have seen and what i have saw on the television drama and the, um, statements i've seen from the victims to the inquiry. so we did not stand up to that . um, in did not stand up to that. um, in those periods of time. >> and do you accept that fujitsu evidence was used to put innocent people in prison? >> yes , there was evidence from

>> yes, there was evidence from us. we did have a we were supporting rather the post office in their prosecutions. um there was data given from us to them to support those, prosecute actions. >> so yes. do you accept that before 2010, your staff knew that there were problems with the horizon system ? the horizon system? >> the information that was shared with the post office ? um, shared with the post office? um, as part of our contract with them was very clear . so the post them was very clear. so the post office also knew there were bugs and errors. they also just to zero in on this. >> did staff in your organisation before 2010 know that there were problems with the horizon system? so i believe that sir wyn simple yes or no? >> well i don't i don't personally know, chair. i think the inquiry is looking at that very point that you what's your gut feel ? my gut feel would be. gut feel? my gut feel would be. yes. okay. so you've said that you're an ethical company. >> you've said that your

evidence was used to put innocent people in prison. you've said that that staff in your organisation knew that there were problems with the system. can you tell us how much you now think your company should contribute to the compensation bill? >> the inquiry is dealing with some very complex matters over is there a moral obligation, mr patterson, for you to contribute? i think there is a moral obligation for the company to compete, to contribute . and i to compete, to contribute. and i think the right place to determine that is when our our responsibility is very clear. there are many parties involved in this travesty . in this travesty. >> i just read your last set of accounts which have been published. you've not made any provision in those accounts for a contribution to the compensation . but you're telling compensation. but you're telling the committee today that you believe there is at least a moral obligation for fujitsu to contribute. >> when the inquiry finishes? >> when the inquiry finishes? >> that's a simple yes or no.

well, so is there a moral obugafion well, so is there a moral obligation for fujitsu already answered. >> i already it's okay. >> i already it's okay. >> you can keep going. >> you can keep going. >> ah, okay. sorry um, yes, i believe there is a moral obugafion believe there is a moral obligation and i've already i've already said that. i think it's also important that the inquiry deals with these deals with these very complex matters , with these very complex matters, with all the parties involved. yes we have a part to play. yes. the post office already this morning we've talked about lawyers, we've talked about lawyers, we've talked about the law. i think you're listening here. >> head of europe at >> this is the head of europe at fujitsu. paul fujitsu. his name is paul patterson. answering questions at the post office scandal select committee . select committee. >> have part to play and to >> have a part to play and to contribute to redress i contribute to the redress i think is the words that mr bates used the redress fund for the sub postmasters very much. >> lavery . >> mr lavery. >> mr lavery. >> uh thanks, chair. >> thanks. uh thanks, chair. >> thanks. uh thanks, chair. >> mr patterson, do you accept that the existence of a fujitsu call unit, as shown on the itv

documentary, actually existed, whereby members of your team , whereby members of your team, um, were able to access support monsters? um computer systems in, in their own offices and were able to change data without subpostmaster subpostmasters uh, knowing that that had been done. >> i don't recognise the terms covert. i wasn't there, but it happened. >> was that was that happening? >> was that was that happening? >> so we have already stated that there was remote access to the system . is what took place the system. is what took place or did not took place in those interventions is certainly i know, one of the streams of work that the that the inquiry are looking at as well. but there was fact there was remote access. >> i mean, covert means in many ways , secretly . and if you've ways, secretly. and if you've got people in your offices or wherever, access , being remotely wherever, access, being remotely , um, the sir of postmasters

accounts and altering them , accounts and altering them, that's covert, isn't it ? accounts and altering them, that's covert, isn't it? um, so without the sub postmasters having any idea whatsoever of that happening, in fact, it would border on i'm not a solicitor, but certainly would border being on illegal. in my view, the support and the intervention from remotely from fujitsu. >> um has been documented and it is clear the post office was certainly aware of that remote access and that was clear for some period of time , as the post some period of time, as the post office denied that , didn't it? office denied that, didn't it? i believe they did. >> so the post office weren't telling the truth at the time , telling the truth at the time, is that i just know what i so i only know what i know, and i know that that certainly is part of that process. >> the remote access was documented and communicated dated. >> what would you say to that? mr read that the post office were very much aware about that, denied it . were very much aware about that, denied it. um, i, i've only been in the organisation since 2019,

so it's difficult for me to comment. >> i think the most i've got a comment on the post office. >> you're in charge of the post office. think i think the most office. i think i think the most important place the important place for the commentary is going to be. >> williams is inquiry. >> sir wyn williams is inquiry. we are obviously cooperating with him wholeheartedly to make sure that all information that we have, and that we are aware of is supplied to that inquiry , of is supplied to that inquiry, and clearly there will be individuals from the post office who providing witness who will be providing witness statements and who will be coming forward to give insight into that . into that. >> i mean, there's whistleblowers , um, have come whistleblowers, um, have come forward and so this is mp ian lavery and the gentleman we just saw talking then is the lawyer for fujitsu . for fujitsu. >> um , why did fujitsu or the >> um, why did fujitsu or the post office just sit back and take absolutely no notice of the sub post masters rather than listen to them and try and help them and get get the issues

resolved amicably. basically took the attitude that we're just going to prosecute these people and basically, um, there were feared for the livelihoods adds. so i'm actually committed suicide as a result of the post office policy . why was this case? >> well, as i say, i can't answer for specifically for what was happening pre 2015. i simply wasn't in the business at the time . what i can empathise with time. what i can empathise with is that i've spent a lot of this last year speaking individually to postmasters who are victims of scandal , to postmasters who are victims of scandal, and i've had private meetings with over 30 of those, and a number of them have certainly talked to me about the trauma associated with this, the way that they were treated and handled. and i think that is something that has come through in human evidence that has in the human evidence that has been displayed inquiry , been displayed at the inquiry, and has come through and also that has come through very, very clearly in the way that they were treated . and that they were treated. and clearly, from our perspective,

we want to make sure that we as an organisation are giving so in every single opportunity that he has to make sure that he can get to the truth. and that is clearly what the we would expect , nothing less. absolutely agree with chair, that is exactly with you, chair, that is exactly what to we know it's what we need to do. we know it's an extremely complex situation. it's going for on 25 years. it's been going for on 25 years. there is an enormous amount of documentation and data, but we want to make sure that we give him every opportunity to understand what exactly happened, who was accountable , happened, who was accountable, andindeed happened, who was accountable, and indeed what we do next, what what happened to the, um, julia hamilton and others money to the appeared repaired . appeared repaired. >> what happened to that ? >> what happened to that? >> what happened to that? >> well, i've obviously become aware as a consequence of the evidence that's been provided, that there is a an on running issue associated with suspense accounts. we've had this investigated 2 or 3 times by external agencies , as we've external agencies, as we've provided that data to sir wyn , provided that data to sir wyn, he can obviously make his draw

his conclusions specifically . i his conclusions specifically. i don't think we as i understand it, we got to the bottom and the nub of what was going on with those suspense accounts. lord arbuthnot spoke to me about this when first joined the when i first joined the organisation in 2020, and it's something that we've struggled to because the quality to uncover because the quality of the data isn't good enough. going over years, be going back over ten years, to be honest. it is, as i say, honest. but it is, as i say, something that we've spoken to our auditors about. it's something that we had external third party look certainly third party look at. certainly pnor third party look at. certainly prior to my time, and it's something that that second sight obviously called out. so we have provided that information to sir wyn. he will be able to draw his conclusions given all the evidence that he is gathering, and we will, as i say, get to the bottom of exactly what happened. obviously happened. and this is obviously pre is that a possible that the >> is that a possible that the money is that the subpostmasters paid and it up in the coffers of the post office . and then as the post office. and then as part of the profits , the monies part of the profits, the monies were then paid to dividend

holders and indeed could have been part of et. island . hefty been part of et. island. hefty numeration packages for the post office. um executive it's difficult to say. >> i mean, as i say, this is this is difficult. this is pre 2015. i don't have the context of what the what is it possible? >> i mean, it's possible. >> i mean, it's possible. >> of course it's possible. absolutely it's possible. >> patterson was y y at the >> mr patterson was y y at the time. you know, you knew that there was glitches in the system . why did you sit back and do absolutely nothing about it ? absolutely nothing about it? >> i don't know , i really don't >> i don't know, i really don't know . and, um, on a personal know. and, um, on a personal level, i wish i did know, um, following my appointment in 2019, i've looked back on those situations for the company and the evidence i've seen and i just don't know what i do know is the inquiry is looking at this very point of who knew what and when and what action they did or did not to take draw

attention to the, uh, to the concerns. i just don't know . concerns. i just don't know. >> mr reardon , um, in i think it >> mr reardon, um, in i think it was 2015, the post office executive, paula vennells , told executive, paula vennells, told the committee that she believed that the prosecutions were sound . i mean, things have changed dramatically. obviously do you think the post office attempted to mislead parliament and the pubuc to mislead parliament and the public to cover up its own failings ? failings? >> i mean, i can't specifically comment on that. i think what's become very evident clearly is that we've got a number of cases that we've got a number of cases that have come to light. we've seen 2500 colleagues come forward in the horizon shortfall scheme . um, we've seen a number scheme. um, we've seen a number of overturned convictions , ones of overturned convictions, ones clearly, sir wyn will be looking very carefully at what has happened. and i think we're all

very keen to get to the bottom of this. i've been very, very clear since i joined the organisation that the post office simply can't move forward until such time as proper redress has been determine and has, more importantly, has been paid out and given to those victims of this scandal. we know that , um, and victims of this scandal. we know that, um, and certainly from our perspective, we will provide everything we can to sir wyn so that he can make these pronouncements. i know it's a frustration for the committee that, you know, certainly in my instance, i wasn't in the organisation . and you would like organisation. and you would like specific answers . it's very specific answers. it's very difficult to do that. but well, we expect to know the we would expect to know the history given the full cooperation with inquiry. cooperation with the inquiry. >> well, absolutely . >> mr reid. well, absolutely. >> mr reid. well, absolutely. >> is exactly what >> and that is exactly what we're are providing we're doing. we are providing all cooperation with all and full cooperation with the that's clearly the inquiry, and that's clearly the inquiry, and that's clearly the for us to the right place for us to apportion blame when sir wyn has made his pronouncements. that's very, clear. and we want to very, very clear. and we want to make sure that he does that and does that. well.

>> just just say, um, >> can i just just say, uh, um, i've asked 3 or 4 questions. i haven't had one answer yet . and haven't had one answer yet. and the reality is you've got the head of the post office, head of fujitsu, that department and the answers have been absolutely negative . you know, if we bring negative. you know, if we bring in people in front of the committee, we would expect them at least to have a knowledge of the history of what's happened, something as big as this. and the answers have been, well, we haven't i haven't had any answers to the questions which i've asked. and i'm extremely i'm not frustrated. i'm absolutely appalled at the answers which i've received. thanks mr gallois, briefly . thanks mr gallois, briefly. >> thank you. chair. mr patterson , ian simon danczuk . patterson, ian simon danczuk. formally still with us. >> that was a jaw dropping answer from paul patterson, the head of fujitsu. when asked , you head of fujitsu. when asked, you knew there were glitches in the system. why didn't you do anything ? why didn't you raise anything? why didn't you raise anything? why didn't you raise anything now? okay, he's only been with since 2019. he said been with us since 2019. he said , know. and he said it , i don't know. and he said it

twice. a shocking answer . twice. what a shocking answer. yeah. that's the that's the best you can come up with. >> that's the beauty of select committees. ian committees. you've got ian lavery member lavery there. a member of parliament knew parliament asking if you knew about glitches. why didn't about the glitches. why didn't you say something about it? at the you you were the time, fujitsu you you were there and this guy patterson has turned fujitsu and turned up from fujitsu and deliberately says , i don't know. deliberately says, i don't know. >> but what's so shocking is you wouldn't come and give evidence not being crucial question. >> she's had weeks to prepare even if he wasn't working there at the time. >> he has to sit in front of that committee , he has to sit in that committee, he has to sit in front british public, and front of the british public, and he come an answer he has to come up with an answer for people you've got. for the people you've got. joanne sat behind joanne hamilton sat behind him. did face? i mean, did you see her face? i mean, she's victim in this. that she's the victim in this. that was just the most brilliant framing criminal record. framing of that criminal record. >> years and >> and it took her years and years get pardon is years to get a pardon that is not acceptable. answer, is it? >> and that's why i have no faith about the inquiry. >> i understand, and >> no, no, no, i understand, and that's what he it he that's what he passed it to. he said it's the inquiry to said it's for the inquiry to decide. just moving it on, avoiding answer avoiding giving a decent answer to the question at the crux to the real question at the crux of other big question

to the real question at the crux of and other big question to the real question at the crux of and i've other big question to the real question at the crux of and i've yetar big question to the real question at the crux of and i've yetar iseejuestion to the real question at the crux of and i've yetar isee itastion to the real question at the crux of and i've yetar isee it asked is, and i've yet to see it asked at this select committee, why at this select committee, is why did many people did you think so many people decided so post decided to turn to so many post office masters, decided to turn to crime all at once. >> it's an absolute this, >> it's an absolute all this, all offence. yeah, and all the same offence. yeah, and we a figure 2400 people we heard a figure 2400 people now are complaining . i mean, we now are complaining. i mean, we thought it was five. the number just keeps going up simon. yes, absolutely. >> and it will do. so some people won't even might not even know victims . know that they were victims. they deliberately not they might have deliberately not understood was on and understood what was going on and what happening to them. yeah. >> and joe hamilton said didn't she. she got text on her way she. she got a text on her way to select committee this to the select committee this morning. of the post morning. she is one of the post mistresses accepted mistresses who took accepted a criminal back of criminal record in the back of shot there with the blonde hair in because thought in the back, because she thought she otherwise she might go to prison otherwise from someone went prison she might go to prison otherwise fromhasn't)ne went prison she might go to prison otherwise fromhasn't come went prison she might go to prison otherwise from hasn't come forward prison she might go to prison otherwise from hasn't come forward yet. 'ison who hasn't come forward yet. yes but now, because these people must be a of shock. but now, because these people mu yeah, a of shock. but now, because these people mu yeah, absolutely.f shock. the >> yeah, absolutely. and so the select committee has to hold these account. and these people to account. and the head there going head of fujitsu there is going to real questions to answer head of fujitsu there is going to this. real questions to answer head of fujitsu there is going to on. real questions to answer head of fujitsu there is going to on thisl questions to answer head of fujitsu there is going to on this there'sons to answer head of fujitsu there is going to on this there's a|s to answer head of fujitsu there is going to on this there's a big» answer head of fujitsu there is going to on this there's a big issue 'er >> on this there's a big issue here, and i think this is here, simon, and i think this is why gets so many of the why it gets so many of the british because why it gets so many of the britiins because

why it gets so many of the britiins this because why it gets so many of the britiins this feeling because why it gets so many of the britiins this feeling that ecause why it gets so many of the britiins this feeling that you se there is this feeling that you have a big corporation, a big tech company like fujitsu , and tech company like fujitsu, and the word that alan bates kept using is this lack of transparency . there's still a transparency. there's still a lack transparency. any us lack of transparency. any of us have just on hold to have even just been on hold to a helpline. when you're trying to sort utility bin bill sort out your utility bin bill or whatever it we all feel or whatever it is, we all feel this that there is this this sense that there is this sort behemoth of sort of behemoth of a corporation and the little man on the ground, the little man and woman that just want run and woman that just want to run their small business live their small business or live their small business or live their lives, have no power. it's a powerlessness , isn't it? a powerlessness, isn't it? >> absolutely. and it can't just be apologies. it has to be things like substantial compensation from fujitsu. it has to be people losing their honours, whether it's ed davey losing his honour and stepping down as leader of the liberal democrats because what his role in this is substantial. democrats because what his role in this is substantial . well, in this is substantial. well, uh, the honour that's been lost from the woman that was running the post office, the result of all this has to be substantial for the public. and the victims to be satisfied. absolutely >> okay. right. thank you. simon

we will let our, uh, boiling blood cool down a little and we'll get a reaction from tanya and nigel after this quick for break the weather. looks like things are heating up . things are heating up. >> boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news is . hi it's weather on gb news is. hi it's alex burkill here with your latest gb news weather forecast. >> for many it is going to be a fine, sunny but cold day. however across northern areas we have seen some have already seen some significant snow . we've had a significant snow. we've had a feature pushing its way in from the northwest, crossing parts of northern ireland into scotland and northern england, and it's this that's brought some heavy snow already today and will continue to do so for a time as we the afternoon, albeit we go into the afternoon, albeit turning rain as we go later turning to rain as we go later on. another feature on. however, another feature pushing into northwestern scotland some scotland is likely to bring some more here, so more significant snow here, so we some disruption we could see some disruption further south across many parts of england wales. further south across many parts of england wales . lots of of england and wales. lots of dry, sunny weather and although it going be with it is going to be cold with temperatures only few degrees

temperatures only a few degrees above cold above freezing, the cold feel will offset light will be offset by the light winds sunshine winds and winter sunshine through this evening and overnight. the outbreaks of rain, sleet or snow pushing their also their way eastwards and also a bit south too. so some bit further south too. so some parts of wales into the parts of north wales into the midlands likely to see some wintry outbreaks further north, turning drier for most clearer skies, allowing for a harsh turning drier for most clearer skies and owing for a harsh turning drier for most clearer skies and some for a harsh turning drier for most clearer skiesand some icy a harsh turning drier for most clearer skiesand some icy patches with frost and some icy patches with temperatures dropping into negative double figures. some further showers towards the further snow showers towards the far and staying dry far north and staying dry towards the south through towards the far south through wednesday . and whilst for many wednesday. and whilst for many it is to be a mostly dry it is going to be a mostly dry day, still have some snow day, we do still have some snow showers a brisk showers pushing in on a brisk north northwesterly wind, so mostly affecting northern and western scotland and northern ireland. elsewhere and the system that could have brought some snow to southern some disruptive snow to southern areas now looks like will areas now looks like it will stay to south of us. so it stay to the south of us. so it is looking dry, but is looking mostly dry, sunny but cold by that warm feeling inside i >> -- >> from boxt boilers sponsors of weather on . gb news right, we weather on. gb news right, we are back in the studio.

>> we are discussing what we've just been watching here. we are kind of blindsided it. we've kind of blindsided by it. we've got nigel nelson and tonia buxton studio with buxton here in the studio with to us react to that select committee there about post committee there about the post office. come to office. tonya, let me come to you um, what we were you first. um, what we were taking it this this taking from it is this this sense of these little people. and i mean that and i don't mean that pejoratively. i mean normal people, good people, ordinary people, good natured people are being absolutely upon by absolutely trod upon by a massive corporation , often in massive corporation, often in collaboration with the post office. and they're still not getting justice. they're still not getting on a day not getting answers. on a day like when i was there, if like today when i was there, if i there and paul patterson i was there and paul patterson turned around and said , you turned around and said, you know, i don't know, as an answer. >> asked why, when asked >> when asked why, when asked why there were glitches, i don't know. >> i wasn't there. no, it's not good enough. i i smacked him on the back . i would have smacked the back. i would have smacked him head, said not good him on the head, said not good enough, good enough. enough, not good enough. absolutely enough. enough, not good enough. abstwicey enough. enough, not good enough. abstwice he enough. enough, not good enough. abstwice he said enough. enough, not good enough. abstwice he said it. enough. >> twice he said it. >> twice he said it. >> he has no shame . we >> twice. he has no shame. we were discussing earlier. i wonder much money man wonder how much money this man is around because is on to turn around because it's company, but it's a private company, but i suspect a multi—million pound salary package.

>> europe and i'm >> he's head of europe and i'm going there. going to put myself out there. >> opinion , in in my >> in my opinion, in in my opinion, all knew what was opinion, they all knew what was going on. they were all throwing your common kind of postmasters under the bus to get away with it, to hide it. i don't believe that post office didn't know that the post office didn't know exactly what was going so exactly what was going on so suddenly. all of these people have the have turned to crime all at the same please it's a cover same time. please it's a cover up somebody needs to go to up and somebody needs to go to jail. somebody needs to do the time that those poor postmasters did. else needs to did. somebody else needs to take. think people did take. do you think people did know, is it a lot of know, or is it just a lot of useful idiots? >> often a situation >> because often in a situation like this, nigel, that some people it just people will know, but it just takes not ask takes a lot of people to not ask the right questions for something like this just get something like this to just get swept how they get swept along. that's how they get away with it. >> bev, w.- >> that's true bev, but in this particular case, a guy particular case, here is a guy with senior position at with a very senior position at fujitsu . he is going to a select fujitsu. he is going to a select committee, which you would imagine he would prepare for or and if he didn't know the answers to the questions, he almost was certain to be asked, why not go and find out? yeah,

but the idea of being able to say to a group of mps and this is actually a semi—judicial inquiry, select committees to be able to turn and say to mps, i don't know, um, as tony just said, it's not good enough , but said, it's not good enough, but it's an astonishing response . it's an astonishing response. >> and we know too, don't we, from kevin jones, the labour mp from kevin jones, the labour mp from durham north, that the first glitches in this wretched honzon first glitches in this wretched horizon it system were identified in the pilot back in 1996. here he is in 2019. so 2023. i don't know why we didn't raise the problem. >> that's right. and i don't know. there are no clean hands on this begins during the on this. this begins during the blair government. yeah. so as honzon blair government. yeah. so as horizon was introduced at the end of the 90s, it was known that things weren't going right. right subpostmasters were discovering problems. the post i should at least have thought. hang on, they can't all be crooks. i mean, suddenly these people forward . um, people are coming forward. um, what going on here? there is, what is going on here? there is, at the very least , what is going on here? there is, at the very least, a what is going on here? there is, at the very least , a lack at the very least, a lack of curiosity find out what was curiosity to find out what was what happening, but then to

what was happening, but then to persecute them after that was absolutely astonishing. >> i think also what struck me, tanya, when they're talking tanya, is when they're talking about these about compensation in these are such people, likes of such good people, the likes of mr and joanne hamilton, mr bates and joanne hamilton, they're now at pains having they're even now at pains having 13 of this they're 13 years of this stress. they're even now pains to say that even now at pains to say that it's the money. they it's not about the money. they don't appear greedy even it's not about the money. they don't stage. appear greedy even it's not about the money. they don't stage. andzar greedy even it's not about the money. they don't stage. and mrgreedy even it's not about the money. they don't stage. and mr bates even it's not about the money. they don't stage. and mr bates wasn at this stage. and mr bates was saying the compensation we're talking about isn't to put these people in a position anything other than what they were before. yes. because they lost their earnings. they paid their own money to plug the system. they lost investments they lost their investments in their their houses. their buildings, their houses. i would write them a massive would just write them a massive cheque. i think they each deserve well over million. deserve well over £1 million. >> bates invested some >> alan bates invested some £5,000 in his business, which they took the licence away from him. >> they shut him down and then of course, he lost earnings of course, he lost the earnings for years and he lost his reputation because he key reputation because he was a key figure in the local community. and panah and suddenly he's a pariah because nicking because he's been nicking local people's saying when i, when because he's been nicking local plookz's saying when i, when because he's been nicking local plook at saying when i, when because he's been nicking local plook at alan;aying when i, when because he's been nicking local plook at alan bates when i, when because he's been nicking local plook at alan bates and1 i, when because he's been nicking local plook at alan bates and jo. when i look at alan bates and jo hamilton, is that they are the type of people of the post office of my childhood. yeah.

and what the post office have done that they've ruined done now is that they've ruined that. to want to that. no one's going to want to go they are. so it's go into that. they are. so it's more than just the money that they're owed. i think they should amounts of should get huge amounts of compensation. agree, compensation. i agree, absolutely amounts of absolutely huge amounts of compensation. should compensation. and it should come from it should backdated. the from it should be backdated. the people in the post office that were getting bonuses for were getting big bonuses for doing jobs and all of doing great jobs and all of this, need to start paying this, they need to start paying back some of their income. >> tanya, paula >> and remember, tanya, paula varne the chief varne now is the chief executive. got her bonuses, executive. she got her bonuses, she her. she got her. >> paid the cbe. >> so she paid the cbe. >> so she paid the cbe. >> not a penny. >> not a penny. >> no, not a penny back for what? >> and he was unable to answer the point lavery, the the point from ian lavery, the boss the post office. were boss of the post office. were some of the bonuses that executives based on the fact executives got based on the fact all postal postmasters all these postal postmasters were paying potentially hundreds of thousands of pounds back into the business, which was their money. well i mean, bonuses could have been in a sense that the itv drama , um, mr bates the itv drama, um, mr bates versus the post office. >> that was the central question. yeah where does that money go? we really don't know

if the subpostmaster didn't take it. obviously got back into it. it obviously got back into the post office coffers because they they squeezed them to get it, get all that money back . it, get all that money back. where is it. would it go towards it. it go to their profits. did it. it go to their profits. did it go to their dividends. we don't know. >> yeah. the other thing, the question i thought was interesting charlotte interesting was from charlotte nicholls mp, she's from warrington labour mp warrington north, labour mp and she whether should she asked whether there should have a role for the have been more of a role for the union here. the post office union ian joanne hamilton , union, ian and joanne hamilton, said that they refused to support any postmaster and were in fact in bed with the post office itself. >> unusual. that isn't it? >> unusual. that isn't it? >> well, it is, it does raise the interesting question, though, doesn't it, that often? >> go don't support the >> don't go don't support the people that they're supposed to be . they support the be supporting. they support the agenda. should be looking after >> they should be looking after the workers out the workers that came out of that came came in the drama. >> the fact that the that it was that one union rep who then on um, if like, broke ranks um, if you like, broke ranks with the union to try and help the to help the subpostmasters and yes, the union should not

have should have got involved. but stage we were but at this stage we were deaung but at this stage we were dealing with the private prosecutions. the post office were launching, which wouldn't be a union matter because it was because they decided to go to law. um i mean, in normal circumstances , as if people were circumstances, as if people were being reasonable in the post office clearly weren't, the union would have been involved in that negotiation and representing their members, but they couldn't do that if their members were being taken to court . court. >> it still feels like they were let down yet again , let down by let down yet again, let down by everybody by absolutely everybody. yeah. the post office ministers one after another, starting off with ed davey . starting off with ed davey. yeah. let them down. yes. nobody was listening to these people who just saying, it's not who were just saying, it's not us, it isn't us. >> i don't have you seen the drama, tonya? >> have you watched the drama? >> have you watched the drama? >> no, i've just been following it in the news. >> there's interesting >> there's this interesting scene all get scene where they all get together. and the together. the accused and the wronged in a town hall, actually. they. bates actually. and they. and mr bates bnngs actually. and they. and mr bates brings together. and brings them all together. and then them and

then there's more of them and dozens. they start coming dozens. and they start coming in. start coming. it's in. they start coming. it's really moving moment, actually. it kind of gives you goosebumps of and how of how many they were and how they each other. and what they found each other. and what struck they were struck me was how they were unable each other before unable to find each other before all that meeting. all that physical meeting. and it social it made me think about social media, how we give media, actually. and how we give social a really hard time. social media a really hard time. but if this happen today, but if this was to happen today, that's right. those people would have they have found themselves. they would hashtag post would have done a hashtag post post they post office scandal, and they would other. would have found each other. >> the problem >> well, the other problem there was the post were picking was the post was were picking them individually saying was the post was were picking th> lies. >> lies. >> yes, it was a lie. so, so in fact, when they got together, i think there was, as you one think there was, as you say, one of the most moving moments in it when, when people then suddenly turned up more and more people, they alone. they knew they weren't alone. >> but the other >> yeah. but here's the other thing. them were thing. when some of them were getting compensation getting their compensation letters getting their compensation lette were marking um, getting their compensation lettewere marking um, uh , i they were marking it. um, uh, i forgot what the legal expression was, but the expression meant they could not share their

offers with their fellow colleagues in dispute, and colleagues in this dispute, and they needed . and it was it was they needed. and it was it was they needed. and it was it was they they most of them were unrepresented legally in the first place. so they were squashing them again, the post office, they were office, even when they were offering were offering them money, they were told be told legally it had to be confidential. share it with anybody. confidential. share it with anyyeah. it's a confidential >> yeah. it's a confidential disclosure. was basically that. >> e- e! bullying >> yeah. wow. again, bullying them. and somebody >> bullying and but somebody often makes these rules . often makes these rules. somebody writes these letters. somebody writes these letters. somebody decides that's the language going them . language that's going into them. and who needs to and that's somebody who needs to be reprimanded . they need be reprimanded. they need somebody from on high. someone from the post office needs to go to jail. >> the phrase that i heard as well, that came out from that was a lack of was this a lack of accountability ? joanne accountability? it was joanne hamilton there's this hamilton who said, there's this lack . and it lack of accountability. and it made me think about the us for them book, the accountability deficit. they've called it. and it something very it does seem something very particular doesn't particular for our time, doesn't it, nigel, that in these in these of huge companies these times of huge companies and, and everything done online, we pass the buck too easily. we can pass the buck too easily. people hide, they get people can hide, they can get through nets. why are we not

good people good at holding people accountable anymore? whether it's a ceo of a big it's an mp or a ceo of a big company ? it's an mp or a ceo of a big coni)any ?it was adam bates who >> i think it was adam bates who actually made the point that this is actually a matter for the for the inquiry, the one that's, led by, by wyn that's, um, led by, by wyn williams, which should all being well, before the of well, report before the end of the year. think that well well the year. i think that well well well well that's what they're talking about three years already. yeah. but the point here is that at the moment we're getting a bit knee jerk about sort of, um, because everyone is sort of, um, because everyone is so angry knee jerk we're on so angry with knee jerk we're on a witch hunt for it's not a knee jerk for the people involved. no, not, but but but the no, it's not, but but but the whole point is we've got to find out who culpable . it may well out who is culpable. it may well be tanya's right. somebody out who is culpable. it may well be tanygo right. somebody out who is culpable. it may well be tanygo to;ht. somebody out who is culpable. it may well be tanygo to jail somebody out who is culpable. it may well be tanygo to jail atmebody out who is culpable. it may well be tanygo to jail at the ody out who is culpable. it may well be tanygo to jail at the end of should go to jail at the end of it. find out that it. but let's find out who that person is. that's a good point. and be done through and that must be done through the public inquiry. >> necessarily show you >> i don't necessarily show you up been really up anyway. it's been really interesting. much up anyway. it's been really intejoining. much up anyway. it's been really intejoining us much up anyway. it's been really intejoining us this much up anyway. it's been really intejoining us this morning. much forjoining us this morning. thank you tanya. thank you nigel. up next, good afternoon britain tom. nigel. up next, good afternoon britwe'll tom. nigel. up next, good afternoon britwe'll you tom. nigel. up next, good afternoon britwe'll you tomorrow. >> we'll see you tomorrow. the bosses the post office have bosses of the post office have been before the inquiry over

that horizon scandal. >> and guess what? those fujitsu bosses have admitted they didn't know what was

where . where. >> good afternoon. britain it's 12:00 on tuesday. the 16 of january. >> i don't know former fujitsu boss admits he doesn't know why his own company. >> the one response for the

faulty software at the heart of the horizon post office scandal, did not act when they knew there were faults in their own system. he doesn't know why they didn't act . rwanda showdown rishi sunak act. rwanda showdown rishi sunak is facing opposition to his flagship rwanda policy from some of his own mps. >> when the bill is debated again in parliament today, we'll be crossing live to the house of commons later on. for yet another ding dong as amendments are thrown at the bill from every angle . every angle. >> oh gosh. >> oh gosh. >> and trump, on top. the former president of the united states wins big in iowa, the first state to vote in the republican primary contest, kicking off the 2024 presidential race. what is it about trump that turns out the vote in arctic blizzard conditions? well there's a lot on today,

isn't there? >>