two westminster. our political edhon two westminster. our political editor, christopher hope, joins us right now. good evening to you, christopher. he is literally imminent . i'm telling literally imminent. i'm telling you, this is all breaking as we speak. there you go, christopher hope. good evening. what's going on.7 bring us up to speed . on.7 bring us up to speed. >> well, michelle, i can't confirm that lee anderson and brendan clarke—smith both deputy chairs of the conservative party, have resigned for voting with the bill. cash amendment, which seeks to disapply elements of human rights legislation towards migrants arriving illegally by boat and the illegally here by boat and the idea is to make it harder for judges to frustrate attempts to send people back. arriving here illegally rwanda deport send people back. arriving here illegalso, rwanda deport send people back. arriving here illegalso,to:wanda deport send people back. arriving here illegalso, to be 1da deport send people back. arriving here illegalso, to be clear deport send people back. arriving here illegalso, to be clear ,deport send people back. arriving here illegalso, to be clear , lee»rt them. so, to be clear, lee anderson and brendan clarke—smith have both resigned. there could more resignations there could be more resignations if more and more and more members of the government vote for these measures to harden up

this rwanda bill with these these rebel amendments, we could see more resignations as we go on tonight . mps are voting right on tonight. mps are voting right now in the house commons on now in the house of commons on this vote. this key this key vote. this key amendment sir bill cash , seen amendment by sir bill cash, seen by many as the father of brexit, somebody who has campaigned for sovereignty parliament somebody who has campaigned for sov decades parliament somebody who has campaigned for sov decades . parliament somebody who has campaigned for sov decades . and parliament somebody who has campaigned for sov decades . and they’arliament somebody who has campaigned for sov decades . and they’arli.this1t for decades. and they see this measure to try and disapply elements of the european court of human rights rules as a way of human rights rules as a way of restoring sovereignty of this place parliament. and that is why so many mps are voting for it. lee anderson , of course, it. lee anderson, of course, appointed a deputy chair quite recently by by boris johnson has been an outspoken critic of laboun been an outspoken critic of labour, a former labour councillor who came across to the tory party in 2019. in fact, i think the first time he voted tory at an election was for himself when he became mp for ashfield. so a big blow for rishi sunak's government to lose these two red wall tory mps. but for them, clearly getting rwanda right is more important than following the government whip. yeah literally just as i was

coming on air, christopher, we was having a conversation. >> he had a tory chief whip basically saying that any mp that votes against the government on government position on who is on the makes the payroll essentially makes their i don't their role untenable. i don't mind admitting that. i sat here literally as we were, as the credits were rolling to my show, saying, if they're not going saying, as if they're not going to get rid lee anderson, as to get rid of lee anderson, as if, well, they definitely proved me wrong. it this is this me wrong. it was this is this shocking? did you expect this to happen ? happen? >> i'm not sure he fully expected it to happen. it emerged yet over the weekend . i emerged yet over the weekend. i think yesterday on sunday afternoon that this might happen. that lee anderson taking a stand here. on what he feels is the rwanda bill and why it needs to be improved. and he's somebody course, mp for somebody of course, the mp for ashfield. he knows what the voters we moments voters think. we had a moments ago. james daly another wall ago. james daly another red wall tory mp for bury north. he tory mp, mp for bury north. he thinks the opposite. it is thinks the opposite. so it is almost vote of conscience for almost a vote of conscience for some mps . i almost a vote of conscience for some mps. i don't some of these mps. i don't expect the government to lose the tonight . but michel, the bill tonight. but michel, these amendments will not be

accepted. but it's the numbers of tory mps voting for it which will weaken authority of will weaken the authority of rishi sunak the prime minister and put pressure on him going into the crucial third reading vote tomorrow night. it might well that that the tory, the well be that that the tory, the tory whips, think that they've got to try and it in got to try and amend it in writing to get through writing to get this through parliament strengthen it. parliament and strengthen it. the tory mps us are the tory mps tell us who are on the the party. as many the right of the party. as many as 40 of them met just an hour ago in the committee room before voting, more should voting, but many more should vote bill. cash vote for the bill. cash amendment. they think that. what's in doing what's the point in doing this if sovereignty, if it won't restore sovereignty, if it won't restore sovereignty, if allow parliament, if it won't allow parliament, the members the elected members of parliament, on the parliament, to deliver on the promise of this deportation plan to rwanda. and that is why it is promise of this deportation plan to importantnd that is why it is promise of this deportation plan to importantnd them s why it is promise of this deportation plan to importantnd them invhy it is promise of this deportation plan to importantnd them in more is so important to them in more important than weakening important even than weakening rishi prime minister rishi sunak, the prime minister >> just very briefly, >> yeah. and just very briefly, because going to let you go because i'm going to let you go and base with people off and touch base with people off the back this news. the back of this news. christopher. but anyone that's just not just tuned in that's not familiar happening just tuned in that's not familnow happening just tuned in that's not familnow and happening just tuned in that's not familnow and tonight,appening just tuned in that's not familnow and tonight, thezning just tuned in that's not familnow and tonight, the votes right now and tonight, the votes that taking place are quick that are taking place are quick summary, if you will, and i shall let you go and throw up into my panel. >> of course you must. now the

rwanda is the idea to rwanda bill is the idea to deliver the sunak deliver on the rishi sunak promise to these these promise to get these these flights taking the uk, flights taking off from the uk, deporting people, arriving here legally rwanda. now legally by boat to rwanda. now the bill passed with a comfortable government majority of around 40 or so back in before christmas. but as many as 2829 trump abstained on the hope that it would be strengthened over christmas. that hasn't happened. and so that threat, which was held over for before christmas for the second reading, is delivered in reading, is being delivered in spades tomorrow. and spades today and tomorrow. and that's why caused such a that's why it's caused such a headache. a problem for the headache. and a problem for the government and that is government whips. and that is why are seeing resignations why we are seeing resignations from government, not from from the government, not from the the anderson the front bench. the anderson and brendan clarke—smith who weren't they weren't in government, but they weren't in government, but they were members. were were paid members. they were paid officials in the tory party, deputy who were party, deputy chairman, who were taking the fight to labour. now that from these that will carry on from these two course, they still two mps. of course, they still remain but can't remain tory mps, but they can't do from the from a position do it from the from a position of working with as we go of working with cchq. as we go into busyness of election yeah >> yeah, indeed . christopher, >> yeah, indeed. christopher, i'm going to let you go and catch up with the people you

need to, but we're going to stay across story. if you manage across this story. if you manage to hold of anyone that's to get hold of anyone that's interesting, will cross interesting, we will cross straight live back to you. but for shall bring in my for now, i shall bring in my panel for now, i shall bring in my panel. dramatic panel. uh, i'm quite dramatic night, say, in night, i have to say, in parliament for this country . night, i have to say, in parliament for this country. uh, my first panel, i should probably just heard him laughing away. say, whatever's away. i always say, whatever's going on in our society, particularly in our politics, he always a smile. the always brings a smile. it's the parliamentary sketch for parliamentary sketch writer for the quentin letts, parliamentary sketch writer for the the quentin letts, parliamentary sketch writer for the the politicaluentin letts, parliamentary sketch writer for the the political commentator and the political commentator matthew stadlen. now, if you are just joining us, 0. good evening. good evening. i was about to get straight into all of the drama without even saying hello. >> don't mind us dup go >> don't mind us dup you go ahead and what you have to ahead and do what you have to do. >> how very, very rude of me. uh, are just joining that uh, if you are just joining that big news there. uh lee anderson has resigned. brendan clarke—smith resigned. clarke—smith has resigned. um, of have to also of course i do have to also mention that the chief whip, quentin, before mention that the chief whip, quersaid before mention that the chief whip, quersaid that before mention that the chief whip, quersaid that anyone before mention that the chief whip, quersaid that anyone that)re mention that the chief whip, quersaid that anyone that votes that said that anyone that votes against the government's position essentially will find themselves untenable in their role . role. >> uh, yeah. it's not entirely surprising . simon hart, chief

surprising. simon hart, chief whip, not universally , not whip, not universally, not universally loved, it has to be said, uh, and i think perhaps he's been a bit clumsy about this. there are two ways of looking at this, i'd say right. the first is to say, hats to off lee anderson and to brendan clarke—smith for standing by their consciences and giving up these comparatively minor positions in the tory party. uh, the other the other way of looking at it is that the tory party parliamentary party has a death wish, uh, because was fighting among themselves is a terrible look. the electorate doesn't normally like parties that are riven, and that this leaves rishi sunak , uh, looking leaves rishi sunak, uh, looking a bit like a wobbly tooth . so a bit like a wobbly tooth. so those are the two ways of looking at it. and my personal view, it's the fandango of politics. and, uh, let's see what happens. >> well, i can tell you it's going to be a dramatic night in parliament, uh, voting happening on those amendments of that very controversial rwanda bill. what will it look like by time will it look like by the time the evening out ? you guys are

the evening is out? you guys are getting in touch before i bring in matthew stadlen. uh, one of my viewers right now on twitter says respect. talked to lee anderson brendan anderson and brendan clarke—smith resigning from clarke—smith for resigning from the discredited, collapsed wing tory hashtag. rishi tory government hashtag. rishi must fail. cool. blimey. not mincing your words there, matthew stadlen, where are you? >> what an evening this is to be live, michel. i mean literally changing by the minute. that news first. that bit just before we came air from the chief we came on air from the chief whip. that lee whip. then the news that lee anderson resigned . i don't anderson has resigned. i don't underestimate it. just what a story this is lee anderson. i mean, maybe the deputy chair may not be in government, but it is a paid role. most importantly, he is sunaks equivalent to blair's john prescott. he's supposed to have the common touch , he's supposed, without touch, he's supposed, without the punches or he's a big chap. i've been on his show a couple of times. listen, this man is electorally significant for the conservative lives, and this will be just delightful news for richard tice and reform , because richard tice and reform, because

lee anderson was supposed to the man who was keeping the sort of hard right or far right, whatever you want to call them at bay. and now, he said, i can't be i can't do this job anymore. i be the deputy anymore. i cannot be the deputy chair of rishi sunaks party. >> he brought in the far right. it's only eight minutes past. >> listen, the point is, the point is the point is this was a man. lee anderson, said. and man. lee anderson, who said. and we perfectly well behind we get on perfectly well behind the scenes. anderson the scenes. but lee anderson said the government lost said when the government lost its in the supreme court its case in the supreme court over whether not rwanda was over whether or not rwanda was a safe country, he that the safe country, he said that the flight off anyway. flight should take off anyway. okay, you might not call that far right, but it's quite extraordinary the deputy extraordinary for the deputy chair party to chair of governing party to say this. is a massive story. this. this is a massive story. as quentin letts says, you cannot win elections you cannot win elections as if you are divided as a party. this is election year with just a few days into 2024. they are tearing themselves apart. >> you can though, because boris johnson 2019. there were johnson did in 2019. there were a lot of tories who didn't like boris, it more difficult. boris, but it is more difficult. certainly >> well, they across >> well, they came across as united, one way, that united, but one one way, that one one solution that might be open to rishi sunak to give a

open to rishi sunak is to give a bit of ground to the likes of lee anderson and he may have to do that now. >> then there'll be lots of people oh, he's weak people saying, oh, he's a weak pm, he's giving ground. it's pm, he's giving ground. but it's it me number 10 has it strikes me that number 10 has been pigheaded in the way been rather pigheaded in the way that has refused that it's refusing, has refused to bit of territory to, to yield a bit of territory to, to yield a bit of territory to, to the bill cash tendency . i to the bill cash tendency. i thought they could have done a bit of that and then you don't buy my john prescott analogy. i mean, this guy don't quite buy that because john prescott was deputy prime minister. yes. which was significant. which was a more significant. but he also very visible but he was also very visible figure in whitehall. uh, but i can some of the, sort of can see some of the, the sort of the resonances. >> the only reason that lee anderson there is precisely anderson is there is precisely to sort john to play that sort of john prescott idea that he prescott role. the idea that he has finger on pulse of has his finger on the pulse of the you have your finger the voters. you have your finger on pulse of the voters that on the pulse of the voters that you're i there's no way the tories can this election. tories can win this election. >> never claim you can't >> i would never claim you can't compare the party today to compare the tory party today to the tory party under boris johnson, although there the tory party under boris johnsdivisions, although there the tory party under boris johnsdivisions, of although there the tory party under boris johnsdivisions, of coursejh there the tory party under boris johnsdivisions, of course there re were divisions, of course there was whatever was boris johnson for whatever one him. one thought of him. >> was not a fan by any

>> and i was not a fan by any stretch of the imagination. he was able to bring people together to win elections, and he time and time again. >> uh, n again. >> uh, i can tell you >> uh, well, i can tell you right now we've just got right now that we've just got a hold this join out hold of this join out resignation letter. actually so if you're just tuning in, this is a massive night for parliament. we've got voting on the amendments. you can see this on the screen when we get these results through. i shall be sharing the outcome of sharing with you the outcome of these what christopher these votes. what christopher hope, political hope, our deputy political edhoh hope, our deputy political editor, westminster, editor, live in westminster, will be crossing live to him as well. now, let's talk , well. but for now, let's talk, shall we, about this resignation letter. lee anderson, brendan clarke smith, uh, dear prime minister, when we were elected in 2019, we promised the public we would get brexit done and take back control. one of the key issues for the public was our sovereignty. we making sure our sovereignty. we making sure our parliament and our courts would have supreme kc of a distant and unaccountable ones abroad. this conservative government has taken unprecedented steps to make sure that the case. he talks that this is the case. he talks a i mean, this is a very a lot. i mean, this is a very long letter, everybody. we're not doing whole

not going to be doing the whole thing. um, in detail. uh, sorry. in line . but, uh, we he in line by line. but, uh, we he talks about the huge impacts of migration, both legal and illegal. uh, why it's been important to bring these kind of measures about how measures in. he talks about how the albanian plan that is actually working, and he says the rwandan plan represents a clear deterrent . and it is clear deterrent. and it is noteworthy that other countries are now looking at following our lead. um, he talks about how welcoming our country is , how we welcoming our country is, how we can be very proud of our record of taking in refugees . uh, he of taking in refugees. uh, he talks about the evil smuggling gangs with yet more tragic deaths in the channel well, um, what he's also saying is, prime minister, you pledged to do whatever it takes to stop the boats. you've been clear and resolute over the rwanda plan, and will not and you've stated you will not let foreign court block these let a foreign court block these flights . have support flights. you have our support and the support of our constituents. goes on say, constituents. he goes on to say, he points that has he points out that labour has no plan. voted against every plan. they voted against every single measure that has been intended to prevent deaths in the channel to crack on the channel to crack down on

those criminal gangs and so on or so forth, says that not or so forth, he says that not just um , snp have no just labour, um, snp have no interest in tackling this issue and nor do the lib dems. this letter goes on and i'll bring you more of it in a second. but for now, christopher herp live. uh, in westminster. christopher good evening to you. the results of that amendment please . of that amendment vote please. >> uh, that amendment has been, of course , passed by the of course, passed by the government. but 70 tory and dup voted in favour of it, so that makes 62 tory mps and eight dup mps. that's a number which the whips are poring over, looking at over, over tonight. because if this these numbers carry forward tomorrow and anywhere near that number vote against this bill at third reading tomorrow night. the bill will fall. so it's a big number. it's a number which will worry the whips. over whips. they'll be poring over those numbers detail to see those numbers in detail to see who they can pick off overnight. but it might mean if they can't deal and try deal with that number and try and that down to, and then and bring that down to, and then make that mps not make sure that mps do not vote against it . the reading,

against it. the third reading, we some kind of deal we could see some kind of deal being done, kind of written being done, some kind of written amendment to this bill. amendment to this rwanda bill. so significant so a significant figure, a significant number of tory mps with dup against with the dup have voted against the rwanda plan tonight in parliament is, of course, big news. >> um, queensland, let's your reaction to that. >> uh, my reaction to that is thatis >> uh, my reaction to that is that is indeed a worrying number for the conservative whips. and, um , going back to this letter , um, going back to this letter, it said you have our support , it said you have our support, prime minister, but then unwritten . but we're off. um unwritten. but we're off. um i love political resignation letters. the thing that doesn't quite come across here, perhaps , quite come across here, perhaps, is the government's difficulty in this is that you can only push a law so far. well with keeping that law legal, i've thing to say, but laws have to be legal. laws have to comply with international treaties. and this is the difficulty that the government has. and rishi sunak says , i've pushed it as far as i says, i've pushed it as far as i can. if it goes any further, then it'll get stopped in the courts and i don't think that

there is, from what we can, from what we've absorbed of this letter so far, there doesn't quite seem to be an acceptance by and brendan by lee anderson. and brendan clarke—smith of that difficulty , clarke—smith of that difficulty, and that that is where, uh , the and that that is where, uh, the gulf lies between the two sides, just to make this sort of bizarre situation almost comical i >> -- >> but it's serious stuff we're talking about is rwanda, apparently reportedly are saying that they won't go ahead with this rishi sunak breaks this deal if rishi sunak breaks international law in order to force the policy through . and force the policy through. and this number that we've just heard from this number, we've just heard from christopher hope isindeed just heard from christopher hope is indeed a very big number. and sunaks is that if he sunaks problem is that if he does a deal with the right of his party, the lee andersons, the robert jenrick, who don't forget he was the immigration minister who resigned just before christmas. if he doesn't do, if he does do a deal with the right, then he's going to lose the left and the left of his party, the centre of his party will vote against. so he's almost at this stage damned if he damned if he

he does and damned if he doesn't. it's chaos. well, yeah, he's damned if he does he's he's damned if he does and he's damned if he doesn't. >> but he's to do ultimately >> but he's got to do ultimately what the members of british what the members of the british public, essence , the majority public, in essence, the majority of them want to see happening . of them want to see happening. he's got to get a hold and a control of our borders . that was control of our borders. that was primarily for so many people . primarily for so many people. one core reasons that one of the core reasons that they voted for brexit. >> and he's continuing one advantage that he is closer advantage is that he is closer to the british public. even in this watery this slightly diluted, watery position that he's in, he's closer to the british public. it would seem, than opposition parties are. and it just surprises me that he hasn't been able to find a way of showing a bit more ankle to the what? um, matthew calls the conservative far right, but the rest of us call public opinion and, uh, um, and have found a way of accommodating some of their disquiet over this, except they haven't done that. >> hang on. except i think the country is actually united and the left people like me sort of centre left and people on the hard right of the conservative party. are united. think

party. we are united. and think of rwanda policy , certainly of this rwanda policy, certainly as is, isn't going to work. i as it is, isn't going to work. i mean, it is the most awful policy forward by policy brought forward by a british government that i can remember, certainly in recent years. >> i mean , how preposterous. >> i mean, how preposterous. what is awful about saying , what is awful about saying, you've got to cast your mind back, everybody , ladies and back, everybody, ladies and gents, at home and not and also you, matthew stadlen, these people are apparently fleeing for their lives. they're apparently being tortured , and apparently being tortured, and they're apparently so unsafe , they're apparently so unsafe, evenin they're apparently so unsafe, even in france, that they need to have sanctuary and all the rest of it. and now what we're saying to those people is, you know what? we're going to help you. we're going to help you on your going allow your way. we're going to allow your way. we're going to allow you we're going to pay for your your airfare. we are so generous. and going to generous. and we're going to send you to a safe. >> tell you why. >> i'll tell you why. >> i'll tell you why. >> i'll tell you why. >> i'll seek peace that you >> i'll seek the peace that you desire. i'll tell you what. what is wrong with that? >> tell you what's wrong >> so i'll tell you what's wrong with it. there are two things that are wrong with it. is that are wrong with it. one is it's immoral and unethical to send to outsource send people to outsource our issues foreign country and

issues to a foreign country and a that the a foreign country, that the supreme of our country supreme court of our country says safe. that's says isn't safe. that's the first point. >> those countries do that >> well, those countries do that rishi they rishi sunak by the way, they also that. also do that. >> that's whataboutery. i'm talking country. and talking about our country. and the reason the second thing is the reason i say it unites the left and the hard right is not just it's not about the morality. this is about the morality. this is about practicality. people about the practicality. people like lee anderson and robert jenrick bill, jenrick don't think the bill, certainly stands, going certainly as it stands, is going to work. and say it's not to work. and i say it's not going work. whatever version going to work. whatever version of pass through, just going to work. whatever version ofincompetence1rough, just going to work. whatever version ofincompetence atugh, just going to work. whatever version ofincompetence at the just going to work. whatever version ofincompetence at the heartt going to work. whatever version of incompetence at the heart of is incompetence at the heart of government, it? government, is it? >> mean, i mean, i'm trying to >> i mean, i mean, i'm trying to take matthew sadler and seriously, he's saying it's incompetence of incompetence at the heart of government. but literally a few sentences that, he was sentences before that, he was talking right of talking about the far right of the conservative the word the conservative party the word far sentence, once far right. that sentence, once it gets so overused that i just become become a bit become i think it's become a bit of a farce. now, arguably here, the difficulty is not long terme between various parts of the conservative party, which may, um, be exterminated at the next general election. >> the difficulty here is between the wishes of the british public and the statutes

agreed by governments over the years and the various international treaties that adhere to our body politic , like adhere to our body politic, like barnacles on a boat and that is the difficulty, is that all this legal apparatus, which prevents democratic design , is being democratic design, is being fulfilled, and that , i think is, fulfilled, and that, i think is, is a much deeper rift than those we're seeing played out on a big, deep, um, intake of breath . big, deep, um, intake of breath. >> he's ready to respond to clinton, but it's not just about us. sorry. it's about you guys at home. this is a dramatic night in parliament. everybody uh, the rwanda bill. what on earth will it look like by the time the evening is out? ahead, of course, of this crucial bill. third reading tomorrow. so rishi sunak , i couldn't tell you right sunak, i couldn't tell you right now. it will be a sweating right now. it will be a sweating right now. you guys are talking. he will be. he will be he. >> you're absolutely right, michelle. you're analysing his armpits very accurately. >> the africa will be in >> the links africa will be in close proximity. if i was to hazard a guess with what might

be going on with rishi sunak right now, jeff, one of my viewers um, you know, viewers says, um, you know, shouldn't lee anderson, it shouldn't lee anderson, it shouldn't be anderson shouldn't be lee anderson resigning should shouldn't be lee anderson reswishy should shouldn't be lee anderson reswishy washy. should shouldn't be lee anderson reswishy washy. rishi should shouldn't be lee anderson reswishy washy. rishi now1ld shouldn't be lee anderson reswishy washy. rishi now , d shouldn't be lee anderson reswishy washy. rishi now , if be wishy washy. rishi now, if you're just tuning in, that is because he's referring to lee anderson, the deputy party chair has resigned , has, as had has resigned, has, as had brendan clarke smith. john says, forgive me for being cynical. is lee anderson resigning because of the rwanda bill or because he's joining the reform party and this is a perfect opportunity to leave a cover. if you would like, perhaps suggest john rae says the government are just wasting their time and ours, they have . this is his ours, they have. this is his words. no balls to do what's needed. they may just give up right now. what does that mean though, ray, when you say the tories up and tories should just give up and do what do you want? do do what? what do you want? do you another election? you want another election? a general election right now? by the the voting the way, the voting is continuing . uh, in parliament, continuing. uh, in parliament, christopher . herb, continuing. uh, in parliament, christopher. herb, is he continuing. uh, in parliament, christopher . herb, is he still christopher. herb, is he still with me? i shall cross live to him i do believe, uh, him because i do believe, uh, there perhaps has been a little

update. christopher hope, are you with us? what's you still with us? what's happening . two seconds. hold happening. two seconds. hold your excitement, christopher hurt. one second, just so i can hear you better. are we good to 90, hear you better. are we good to go, christopher? hope great . job. >> can you hear me now ? >> can you hear me now? >> can you hear me now? >> yes. go ahead. no you can hear me now. yes. sorry >> forgive me. we were working in a very. we're working in a very old building with, uh, with a difficult signal for our camera. so very briefly, mps are voting shortly on this. on this rwanda plan with amendments made by robert jenrick. and we're waiting to see the result of that. we are expecting the number to be similar to those voting for the bill cash amendment, which look to disapply of the human disapply elements of the human rights people arriving rights act to people arriving here know here illegally now, we'll know the shortly, but we the numbers shortly, but we don't the rebellion to be don't expect the rebellion to be as big as it was for the bill. cash amendment moments ago. these numbers matter because they'll the

they'll give mp whips in the government pause for thought going into tomorrow's key votes. because if the government risks losing the whole thing at third reading, it's likely they might try elements of the try and amend elements of the rwanda bill to make more rwanda bill to make it more palatable to the tory right. but it's a big moment, a big blow for authority of the prime for the authority of the prime minister, rishi sunak. tonight to many as 70 mps, eight to see as many as 70 mps, eight from dup, 62 from the tory party to vote against against the government. that's a big moment. we are seeing resignations here with lee anderson. of course, you heard earlier and brendan clarke—smith, two deputy chairs of the tory party both resigning as deputy chairs. they can't vote against government on a vote against the government on a whipped and survive. whipped vote and survive. the government it's government has won, but it's heavily bruised and it lives to fight another day . we're waiting fight another day. we're waiting for the next amendment and when it comes back and the votes on that are clear, will, will, will tell you straight away on the programme. >> just my viewers, anyone >> just help my viewers, anyone that's tuning trying to get that's tuning in, trying to get their that's their head around what that's going what plan for going on, what is the plan for the of the evening? how the rest of the evening? how many votes are we expecting to

see? >>i see? >> i think i think another couple of votes, the one from robert jenrick is looking at strengthening up elements of the way that lawyers can challenge any flights taking off for rwanda . we. so when we get those rwanda. we. so when we get those results, we will get as soon as we can. these votes are really to test the level of upset on the tory back benches, and that's why they're so important. we're watching the numbers to try and make clear and understand what they might mean for entire for the future of this entire plan. we, from plan. we heard, didn't we, from the pm rishi sunak yesterday when he spoke to gb news in leigh sea in essex. he was leigh on sea in essex. he was saying willing to overrule saying he's willing to overrule um . rule 39 orders from europe um. rule 39 orders from europe on judges social so—called pyjama orders, stopping flights, taking off, often in the middle of the night because of concerns about human rights violations. well, he said he would do it, but what the tory right want to see the rebels want to see is that in writing , see the rebels want to see is that in writing, you see the rebels want to see is that in writing , you know, that in writing, you know, written down amendments, we haven't there the haven't got there yet. but the scale of the revolt tonight might mean that tomorrow the government act .

government must act. >> yeah, i can tell you as well, christopher. we'll be crossing live christopher. we'll be crossing uve you christopher. we'll be crossing live you more in live back to you more in the programme. lee anderson's programme. but lee anderson's resignation in particular tonight not gone down well tonight has not gone down well with our viewers. i can tell you now , many people are questioning now, many people are questioning his motive. so many people are saying, is this because essentially he is off to the reform party ? party? lots of you reform party? party? lots of you guys getting in touch. uh, right now. uh john says, i don't care if the tories split in two. quite frankly, i want to be able to vote for a proper conservative party. and rishi and the one nation lots are not proper conservatives, says john. um, many people , this is a view um, many people, this is a view that's actually , um, you know, that's actually, um, you know, reflected quite a lot in my inbox here that rishi should actually have sacked them all rather than letting them resign. there was too much backstabbing in the party. these guys need weeding out, says mark. sue says, i've got so much respect for both liam, brendan, both of them . uh, this. they know what them. uh, this. they know what them. uh, this. they know what the majority of people want in this country. surely she says,

please, she says, please god, please, she says, please god, please , lord. she's praying. sue please, lord. she's praying. sue surely the tories are now finished. she's also continued her prayers to say please allow for lee and brendan to join the reform party. it is time for change. if you are just joining us, uh, the voting on the amendments happening as we speak, we've seen now the resignations of the two deputy, uh, party chairs, lee anderson, uh, party chairs, lee anderson, uh, brendan. uh clarke—smith as well . uh, uh, brendan. uh clarke—smith as well. uh, will uh, brendan. uh clarke—smith as well . uh, will you, uh, brendan. uh clarke—smith as well. uh, will you, in taking a breath to come in there, quentin leitch well, i think i mean, i may be completely wrong here, and lee anderson may have very dirty thoughts, intentions about, uh, abandoning the conservative party, but it may be this is what often guides mps that he's listened to opinion in his kc and has decided that that is where his electors want him to be. >> now, i prepared to give a guy a the benefit of the doubt. and just to put right an earlier

suggestion that talked of rishi and the one nation lot rishi sunakis and the one nation lot rishi sunak is not really that on that side of the party. this is the great irony of this is that rishi sunak was a strong brexiteer and he is trying , as brexiteer and he is trying, as prime minister to keep his parliamentary party together, but to try and keep the tory party together in parliament is the devil's own task. it's like trying to carry water with a sieve and therefore your, uh, we're seeing these difficulties, but i would just caution the for the viewers that sunak himself is not one of life's hand—wringers . he's actually hand—wringers. he's actually instinctively probably more close to lee anderson . close to lee anderson. >> matthew . >> matthew. >> matthew. >> no, the reason this is such a massive story is not because a lot of members of the british pubuc lot of members of the british public don't want to get a grip on asylum and illegal immigration. they undoubtedly do. that's partly why this is such a massive problem for sunak. it's not because there are people like me who think we shouldn't be sending people to

rwanda when we're actually accepting asylum seekers from rwanda. it's because his rwanda. it's because on his flagship policy, he's struggling to drive it through his own party. well look, if you're, um, watching not listening, you will see some activity going on in westminster. >> they're back to christopher hope. >> they're back to christopher hope . christopher, good evening hope. christopher, good evening to you. what's happening now? as they are voting on the robert jenrick amendments. update us, if you will. >> that's right. mps are voting right now on the ability to stop individuals blocking their own removal through suspension of claims and to and to, and to ensure that they can't try and frustrate the work of the government in deporting illegally arrived migrants here. that's the concern, is that it's going to be a lawyers charter for this bill if it goes through and will never see or only see very few migrants taking off. now, we've heard from the pm, mr sunak, he's clear will work. sunak, he's clear it will work. he thinks will overrule. he thinks that he will overrule. he thinks that he will overrule. he in fact, in he said he will. in fact, in terms us on gb news, he will terms to us on gb news, he will overrule europe. european judges that work. that seek to frustrate its work. but think what quentin letts

but i think what quentin letts was there is right. i do was saying there is right. i do think that, um, the concern for the pm is going to be that some tory mps have chosen today to signal to reform the party to the right of the tory party with, as many as 10% of voting in the polls. they are willing that they tried to make this bill harder and they failed . so bill harder and they failed. so they're almost it's they're saying almost it's better loyal to better to be loyal to themselves. than their own themselves. maybe than their own party. they're trying to show to their own electors coming with their own electors coming with the election coming barely ten months away, i expect that they want to show to them that they tried make this bill work , tried to make this bill work, and blocked by the and it was blocked by the government is, mps fighting government that is, mps fighting for future , disregarding for their future, disregarding maybe the interests of their party. >> mhm. interesting stuff there. stay where you are though christopher. we'll be coming. uh live back to you for some more. but for now, quentin you're right. he says that's a very it doesn't often shocked you're here a world first. here for a world first. >> let's might be right >> uh, let's might be right about something. not be. about something. i might not be. i returned something that about something. i might not be. i ret|saidi something that about something. i might not be. i ret|said earlier.�*|ing that about something. i might not be. i ret|said earlier. he] that about something. i might not be. i ret|said earlier. he saidt matthew said earlier. he said this is a problem for rishi

sunak. undoubtedly it is. it's a very it may be very big problem. uh, it may be a for him, it is a a killer for him, but it is a problem. i return to this point. it is a problem for the wider british political class because the election, this the next general election, this is be a big hoo ha, of is going to be a big hoo ha, of course. if, say, the labour course. but if, say, the labour party are then party won it, they are then going have to address this going to have to address this problem. get problem. and if they get completely out of kilter with pubuc completely out of kilter with public opinion, then they have the problem. is problem for the problem. it is a problem for the problem. it is a problem for the the lawyers and for the the for the lawyers and for the civil servants and for the ministers of the day. >> yeah. look, i think you're completely right, quentin , that completely right, quentin, that this problem isn't going to go away with a conservative government. labour when they get in later this year and keir starmer when he becomes prime minister strongly suspect minister as i strongly suspect he will have deal with he will, will have to deal with this will have to this problem, will have to confront public opinion. my view on is he does see that on starmer is he does see that it matters. he does care about it matters. he does care about it and he will try to get a grip on it, whether that will work or not. that remains to be seen but didn't, um, didn't starmer say that they're going to basically repeal this rwanda if

repeal this rwanda bill if the storm not favour of the storm is not in favour of the rwanda bill, but let me repeat, this is a terrible bit of legislation. it keeps coming up with after after with barrier after barrier after barrier, the british public barrier, and the british public can that's why this is can see it. that's why this is a problem the tories and problem for the tories and a problem for the tories and a problem sunak. anderson problem for sunak. lee anderson may own skin, but i can may save his own skin, but i can tell you the tories get wiped tell you if the tories get wiped out at this election, there are a of mps who may be a lot of mps who may be regretting what's happened tonight. >> uh, one of your viewers >> uh, so one of your viewers thinks that sunak should sack the would the backstabbers that would be ironic, , seeing ironic, says christine, seeing as the biggest as sunak is the biggest backstabber after what he backstabber of all after what he did to boris johnson . what we did to boris johnson. what we need right now, michelle, as she says, is a party that will actually stand up to the echr and all the lawyers and do something before britain sinks . something before britain sinks. >> it's a circular firing squad. michelle a circular firing squad i >> -- >> um, richard, says michelle, you know what? i'm watching your show. um, and paying special attention to the house of commons there on the screen . he commons there on the screen. he says, i'm watching it. it looks like an out—of—touch privilege entitled members club. that's

rubbish. >> well, total rubbish . those >> well, total rubbish. those people have been elected by the people have been elected by the people . people. >> well said. >> well said. >> quentin, don't start having a row with my viewers. that is absolute rubbish . uh, what? absolute rubbish. uh, what? well, throw back open well, let's throw it back open to then. let's have a to richard then. let's have a let's and richard let's have a quint and richard head to head. uh, richard at home says, as you home there. quentin says, as you just said, you're talking absolute rubbish. they were voted what do voted in by us. he says, what do you to that one? coming you make to that one? coming back resignation back to then, this resignation letter lee anderson letter from lee anderson and brendan uh, they brendan clarke—smith? uh, they basically saying we've already had two pieces of legislation that by system that was thwarted by a system that was thwarted by a system that does work in favour of that does not work in favour of the british people . it's for the british people. it's for this reason that we supported the amendments to the rwanda bill. is not because we're bill. this is not because we're against the legislation, but because, everyone we because, like everyone else, we want work. it's not an want it to work. it's not an easy task and we appreciate the fine balance that must be struck. our support for the party and this government remains as strong as ever. and thatis remains as strong as ever. and that is why we're so passionate about making this legislation work. we fully work. however, we fully appreciate that with such important roles , there must also important roles, there must also be issue of being bound by

be the issue of being bound by collective responsibility. and it this in mind that we it is with this in mind that we fully appreciate that whilst our main wishes to strengthen the legislation, means that in legislation, this means that in order to for amendments , we order to vote for amendments, we will therefore need to offer you our resignation roles. our resignation from our roles. he also ends or they also end by saying we commend your work on a legal migration so far and your commitment to implementing the will the british people. the will of the british people. the last thing either us wants to last thing either of us wants to do distract from this, and we do is distract from this, and we both look forward to making the legislation carrying legislation work. so carrying out of the british out the will of the british people taking labour people and to taking on labour and winning the next general election. richard tice . election. uh richard tice. leader of reform. he must be rubbing mean, can rubbing his i mean, i can visualise what's going on in political circles. you've got rishi with his links to africa. you've got richard tice rubbing his with uh, under his hands with glee, uh, under he he'll be enjoying this. >> but i think the tone of that letter is pretty good, but it's whether or not they can continue to disagree amicably that will decide how things go. >> well, speaking of richard tice back we go again. um,

christopher herb in westminster. ihear christopher herb in westminster. i hear a little rumour that richard tice he's spoken out about this already. tell us more i >> -- >> well, michelle, you asked there. what does richard tice think of all this? is he rubbing his hands? i've asked him myself. he tells gb news tonight . i can confirm that leigh anderson and brendan clarke—smith would both pass our strict vetting process . they've strict vetting process. they've got his number. they can ring him, but no other chat or detail on any conversations . there is on any conversations. there is an opening, an invitation from the reform party for leigh anderson and brendan clarke—smith to join tonight . clarke—smith to join tonight. >> what do you reckon the viewers in the mind of leigh anderson right now? christopher, do you think that he'd be sitting there rubbing hands, sitting there rubbing his hands, going, stroking his chin? let me think about not? well think about that or not? well we're hoping to hear from leigh anderson at some point soon. >> don't know what he >> i mean, we don't know what he thinks of this yet, but of

course, he used be labour course, he used to be a labour party councillor. the first time he first time he he became, um, first time he became a tory mp. that was the first time he voted conservative for 2019. would he for himself. in 2019. would he make jump to reform, to make that jump to reform, to save his seat, to save himself self his political careers? self save his political careers? he see it . i'm self save his political careers? he see it. i'm not sure. he might see it. i'm not sure. there has been some quite tough words between those two individuals recently . they have individuals recently. they have clashed quite a lot. that's richard tice, leader of reform and of course lee anderson. but it just shows, i think, that the reform is on the edge of this. watching these tory mps vote against their own government to tighten immigration rules. now, if this does not go any further, and if rwanda bill is not tightened, where does that leave the mps who voted against their own government? this is will be weaponised by the labour party to a degree, although they haven't got an answer. and in fact would repeal the reform act when the forgive me, the rwanda act. but more alarmingly and worryingly, fact that worryingly, is the fact that they tried to stop this or change this bill and it didn't

work. will be weaponised by the reform party and could eat into their support. so you have an offer tonight from from richard tice of reform tice the leader of reform to these two senior mps join these two senior tory mps join us. well we're going to debate that in just a second. >> but before i let you go , any >> but before i let you go, any new viewers just very quickly bnng new viewers just very quickly bring them up to speed on the amendment, that amendment, voting that has happened please. happened this evening. please. christopher that's right. >> so mps are right now are voting on the robert one of robert amendments, robert jenrick amendments, the former immigration minister against of tory mps against dozens of tory mps supporting is to try supporting it. this is to try and stop lawyers fighting individual cases to slow down. uh deportation flights when they're meant to start in may. we'll get those numbers to you as soon as we can. the numbers of tory mps supporting the amendments, trying to harden the government, government government, the government measure we expect the measure. we do expect the government win. but it's a government to win. but it's a scale the rebellion scale of the rebellion which will whips overnight. will worry whips overnight. >> christopher hope, >> indeed, christopher hope, thank very much for that. thank you very much for that. let open to you let me throw that open to you guys home then what do you guys at home then what do you make of this? uh richard tice. the leader of uh, reach make of this? uh richard tice.

the lee ier of uh, reach make of this? uh richard tice. the lee anderson. uh, reach make of this? uh richard tice. the lee anderson. come reach make of this? uh richard tice. the lee anderson. come onach make of this? uh richard tice. the lee anderson. come on in. out, lee anderson. come on in. you come into the big bosom of reform. do you think he should, uh, in go inward ? uh, in go inward? >> what should should anderson go and join reform? yes. uh, no, i don't think he should. um. why not? because i don't think reform is as, uh, interesting or, uh, significant a party as the conservatives i love the thing, though, that ty said about our strict vetting processes, uh, how strict they are. but, um, uh , i don't know are. but, um, uh, i don't know if he stood for reform. >> my humble prediction would be that lee anderson would absolutely clean up. >> you know what, michelle? there was a bloke called robert kilroy—silk who had a party called, uh , veritas, i think. called, uh, veritas, i think. and i went, he stood in long eaton, nottinghamshire. really sort of brexiteer. this was long before brexit and i was on the, i was uh, i was watching kilroy—silk canvassing on the streets of long eaton and i was very impressed and i thought, this is going to win. he got this guy is going to win. he got

something of the vote. this guy is going to win. he got sonveryig of the vote. this guy is going to win. he got sonvery hard. of the vote. this guy is going to win. he got sonvery hard. it's of the vote. this guy is going to win. he got sonvery hard. it's very he vote. this guy is going to win. he got sonvery hard. it's very hardyte. it's very hard. it's very hard as an outside party to challenge the major parties. >> on whether or not lee anderson joins reform, and i suspect he won't . this is bad suspect he won't. this is bad news for sunak and bad news for the tory party. and you can't get away from that. and why is it bad news? >> it's bad news. the resignation an the resignation because it's such bad optics. >> was looking at a video on >> i was looking at a video on twitter only today . i don't know twitter only today. i don't know when recorded. it was when it was recorded. it was sunak and anderson. so little when it was recorded. it was sun.largei anderson. so little when it was recorded. it was sun.large ,anderson. so little when it was recorded. it was sun.large , very rson. so little when it was recorded. it was sun.large , very sort. so little and large, very sort of different personalities , different personalities, different personalities, different sort of constituencies of population. they were of our population. they were cosying up to each other, sort of laughing and joking. it didn't look very sincere, but the hope for sunak was that by having on board, he having anderson on board, he could appeal to voters who do care about asylum, who do care about illegal immigration in a way that he himself couldn't. he couldn't reach them. and so for anderson to have to resign his position, it sends out a message to a of people who might to a lot of people who might otherwise conservative. we otherwise vote conservative. we can't do this anymore. i

disagree with these people, by the way, because i don't share their that's their politics. that's irrelevant . the fact is, a lot irrelevant. the fact is, a lot of people, i think an increase number of people will think, look, with the tory look, we're done with the tory party, tice wants. party, like richard tice wants. we're punish the we're going to punish the conservatives we'll conservatives yes, we'll probably government probably get a labour government as a consequence, but we're going this going to vote on principle. this is for reform. is a great moment for reform. i think it's also a great moment for keir starmer. >> all greg in scunthorpe >> all right greg in scunthorpe says i have voted says michelle i have not voted for i'll be turning for years but i'll be turning out next time. and i will be voting reform. and you see i always find this quite interesting because you know what? you've got your labour diehards, got your tory diehards, you've got your tory diehards, you've got your tory diehards , you've got bit in diehards, you've got the bit in the you know, it's the middle, you know, it's great, fascinating. i'm more interested about those interested often about those people home, those people that stay at home, those people that stay at home, those people completely people that are completely disillusioned and that are not perhaps going to, well, perhaps probably not voted in some cases, before i'm sitting cases, uh, before i'm sitting here now thinking, should i bother next time? is it going to be worth it? will make be worth it? will it make a difference? and i do find the proposition of reform, quentin, an thing to get

an interesting thing to get people up off the surface . and people up off the surface. and at that ballot box. oh, undoubtedly . undoubtedly. >> no, i wouldn't disagree with it at all. it's very interesting. i just don't i think it's very, very hard for challenger parties to break through. the lib have through. and the lib dems have had of little peaks, but had lots of little peaks, but they've many, many more troughs. >> wu e i ran in 2017 as an >> you see, i ran in 2017 as an independent in the seat that i call home, which is hull west and hessle, right. and then i ran again in a brexit ran again in 2019 as a brexit party candidate . and i've got to party candidate. and i've got to say, when i look back now in 2019, did split the votes. we 2019, we did split the votes. we did labour party got re—elected, but actually more people voted against labour than for them . against labour than for them. and i sit there and i think, you know what? i don't actually think that my what i call my home, hull west and hessle would have actually have gone tory there was a lot of talk about should brexit stand down, should brexit party stand down, should brexit party stand down, should kind give to should we kind of give way to the tories and then i thought, you know what, how um, egotistical. so snobbish and self entitled must you be to think that you earn those votes

and actually these kind of start up parties, these challenger brands , for want of a better brands, for want of a better word, challenger parties, it's them that should give way. >> yeah. no, i agree completely with you, but i'm just saying it is a fact of political life that it is very hard for challenger parties to through. but, you parties to win through. but, you know, conservatives know, maybe the conservatives should stand to should, should not candidates some not stand candidates in some seats and in. well, this is why why stand in a place where they haven't got a hope of winning? >> uh, look, let's cross back. there's a fast moving night back to the commons. christopher hope updates will. robert updates us, if you will. robert jenrick, amendments 25. >> the ayes to the right. >> the ayes to the right. >> 58. the nose is to the left, 525. so the noes have it. the noes have it unlocked . the noes have it unlocked. the question is that clause four stand part of the bill, as many as are of that opinion say i

contrary. no division clear the lobby , let you go. lobby, let you go. >> so there we've had the high water mark. it looks like, of the tory rebellion, which was, uh, 70 votes against them. if you count the dup. that's the that's the problem for the whips. so that that that last vote there attracted fewer people. that's maybe because people. that's maybe because people will have gone to the bars and feel that they've done their bit, gone to the bars and done their bit. >> christopher hope he's not at done their bit. >> barn.opher hope he's not at done their bit. >> barn. he's' hope he's not at done their bit. >> barn. he's not)e he's not at done their bit. >> barn. he's not dones not at done their bit. >> barn. he's not done hisyt at done their bit. >> barn. he's not done his bitt the barn. he's not done his bit yet. he's on it. >> he's a grafter. >> he's a grafter. >> he's a grafter. >> he's our christopher hope. uh, reaction bring us up to speed. your speed. what's happened? your thoughts ? thoughts? >> missing all the fun in >> i'm missing all the fun in the studio. that's right. well, 58 mp5 the studio. that's right. well, 58 mps have voted for this robert amendment. so it robert jenrick amendment. so it is as big as the figure is not as big as the figure which we reported earlier. 70 voting bill. cash voting for the bill. cash amendment. that's because i think fewer people are going to be line with what robert be in line with what robert jenrick was proposing. but there's question we now there's no question we are now seeing a sustained number.

dozens of tory mps willing to vote against the government defy the whip to harden the rwanda bill. now the challenge for the pm overnight and a team of whips is that how is that number is how that how is that number brought down to below, around 2830 or so tory mps , if they 2830 or so tory mps, if they can't bring that down? third reading tomorrow night, the bill will fall. this is a moment of maximum jeopardy for the for this, for this plan to make this small boats um plan to fly these people to, to rwanda after arriving here legally by small boats work. it's a difficult week. difficult night, a boats work. it's a difficult week. difficult night , a late week. difficult night, a late night for the whips office and a late night for number 10. >> boris johnson in 2019 was able to bring together a disunited conservative party because they knew that he could win elections and they were desperate to win an election. and he delivered that in dramatic style with an 80 seat majority. this is the opposite of that. we are in election yeah of that. we are in election year. this is the conservative party's flagship policy. whatever any of us in the

studio, think of it. and if the pubuc studio, think of it. and if the public see that rishi sunak cannot manage his own party on his biggest single, most obvious policy, how on earth are they going to be able to vote for him and his party in an election? >> yeah, but hold on, because i heard someone i do forget which mp was. you might know mp it was. you might know quentin. i had an mp talking about this earlier about the about this earlier on about the divisions party, and he said conservative party, and he said a line which really stuck with me. says, well, not me. he says, well, we're not a cult. we have brains and we think, and we respect and we represent our constituents. it's and actually resonated and actually it really resonated with me that there's this kind of mindset, like just of mindset, like you've just said it yourself. he can't manage party. he can't manage his party. he can't manage his party. he can't manage party well. people manage his party well. people have and have different opinions. and this issue. this is a really divisive issue. i to agree with the i happen to agree with the rwanda happen to think rwanda plan. i happen to think that it should have that actually it should have been tougher, but it's very been made tougher, but it's very divisive. and doesn't just divisive. and that doesn't just divide this panel here. it divide us on this panel here. it divides at home and it divides people at home and it divides people at home and it divides the tory divides people within the tory party you expect them party so what do you expect them to personality to do? our personality transplants. and they pretend transplants. and so they pretend that there's something else just so can appease people so they can appease people like

you be unhed? >> no, no, i think that's very well i think when mps well put. and i think when mps join the party, they know they basically try toe a basically have to try to toe a party line, particularly if they want to be in government. but it's always very impressive when mps their mps vote according to their conscience. might conscience. although it might often be according to what will play often be according to what will play they see it in play out best as they see it in their constituencies. no, my point this blaming point is this not blaming necessarily the mps for rebelling, although i happen to disagree with them on the substance. that this disagree with them on the sua;tance. that this disagree with them on the sua prime that this disagree with them on the sua prime minister that this disagree with them on the sua prime minister wh01at this disagree with them on the sua prime minister who is this disagree with them on the sua prime minister who is being is a prime minister who is being seen on a flagship policy, that he has wedded himself to. yes, he has wedded himself to. yes, he inherited it from boris johnson, but he has stuck to it by well, exactly. but he's by glue. well, exactly. but he's sticking by it. buy to it like glue. and he is being shown that he can't even or potentially can't even deliver it within his own party. and i'm just saying to you, the optics of that are terrible . terrible. >> um, so just if you're tuning in big nights in politics, the thing that's got everyone talking tonight, i can tell you at home, i'll bring you guys into the conversation again in a second. is lee anderson, uh,

resigning? and whether or not actually in actually he will end up in reform party, whether or not that would make that would even make a difference not. you've just difference or not. you've just seen the vote there for the robert jenrick amendment that didn't anywhere. they didn't really get anywhere. they rejected it by 525 votes to 58 majority. there . are 467. um, majority. there. are 467. um, you know , really, disobedience you know, really, disobedience can be moorish . can be moorish. >> this is a danger for the whips , uh, for the conservative whips, uh, for the conservative whips, uh, for the conservative whips in that once mps have rebelled, once they think, ooh , rebelled, once they think, ooh, that wasn't bad. i rather like that. i think do that that. i think i'll do that again. and uh, there is the paradox here. is that the public says we like strong leaders, and then you say, yeah, do you like strong whipping? oh, no, we don't strong whipping. we don't like strong whipping. we think we, mps should say to think we, uh, mps should say to say what they think. and this is the this is the unreconciled , the this is the unreconciled, uh, nature of politics. hard whipping is not necessarily a great thing , uh, for principle great thing, uh, for principle and for principled public life, but it does help should we politically ? politically? >> i mean, there was talk about positions being untenable if

they didn't back the government and rest of it. should and all the rest of it. should we see people forced out or we see more people forced out or resigning anything off the resigning or anything off the back of this? resigning or anything off the bacwell,his? resigning or anything off the bacwell, it's up to the mp. i we >> well, it's up to the mp. i we are i'm reporter. you know, are i'm a reporter. you know, i don't i don't it's not it doesn't matter what i think about these things. i would, i would observe though that i think the conservative whipping operation seems to have been a little heavy handed, inept. little bit heavy handed, inept. it terme. it might be the terme. >> it being it might be the terme. >> ish it being it might be the terme. >> ish for it being it might be the terme. >> ish for mps. it being it might be the terme. >> ish for mps. well, it being it might be the terme. >> ish for mps. well, if, 3eing it might be the terme. >> ish for mps. well, if, like] more ish for mps. well, if, like lee anderson, you've just given up a paid post, then the temptation for him and 1 or 2 others might be to become a sort of totem of that wing of the party. so we watched this space. i mean, the future of the conservative party and therefore, to an extent, the future being future of the country is being played the studios of gb played out in the studios of gb news because you've got richard tice show and tice presenting a show and you've lee anderson you've got lee anderson presenting show. two the presenting a show. two of the key but i just say key players. yeah but i just say i don't i'm not sure that the pubucis i don't i'm not sure that the public is entirely stupid when it watches politics. >> and i think people can be galvanised by disagreements within parties. labour's got a problem. no no no no. but

labour's got a problem. disagreements at the moment about israel policy. i think about the israel policy. i think it's quite interesting to it's been quite interesting to see that playing out and trying to where party to work out where the party is going be on it, but israel is going to be on it, but israel is not the flagship policy labour party, not saying party, and i'm not saying that labour divisions. party, and i'm not saying that labitir divisions. party, and i'm not saying that labit does. divisions. party, and i'm not saying that labit does. and divisions. party, and i'm not saying that labit does. and starmer,ions. party, and i'm not saying that labit does. and starmer, ins. >> it does. and starmer, i think, has got a pretty iron grip on his candidates for the next election. not a total next election. maybe not a total iron grip on his parliamentary party now. and there's party as it is now. and there's hangover years, hangover from the corbyn years, but distanced very but he's distanced himself very strongly the point strongly from corbyn. the point about i coming about this, and i keep coming back to it, this was a policy that rishi sunak made a flagship policy and at the policy and he said at the beginning of last year he was going to end the boats. did he end boats? no they were down end the boats? no they were down by third. looks like it's by a third. he looks like it's a possibility he will lose a vote tomorrow. significant vote. and then whole credibility is on tomorrow. significant vote. and the|line whole credibility is on tomorrow. significant vote. and the|line again. credibility is on the line again. >> do think he'll lose his >> do you think he'll lose his vote tomorrow? because mean, vote tomorrow? because i mean, it's and good. it's one it's all well and good. it's one thing, isn't it? votes thing with integrity know with integrity saying, you know what, i don't think is what, i don't think this is going pass the going to, um, kind of pass the mark. i think people are going to too many opportunities to have too many opportunities to have too many opportunities

to we need to be more to appeal. we need it to be more watertight. one thing. watertight. that's one thing. voting watertight. that's one thing. v> you're going be >> well, if you're going to be monsieur poirot about this and you look the evidence, you'd monsieur poirot about this and you that the evidence, you'd monsieur poirot about this and you that the the evidence, you'd monsieur poirot about this and you that the numbers1ce, you'd monsieur poirot about this and you that the numbers are you'd monsieur poirot about this and you that the numbers are there say that the numbers are there for sunak to have a serious problem this. and as problem on this. however and as a reporter, hate making a reporter, i hate making predictions. i wouldn't be surprised were there to be a little bit of leg , some sort of little bit of leg, some sort of ankle shown to the rebels overnight and that that would, um , smooth things down before um, smooth things down before tomorrow . but, you know, let's tomorrow. but, you know, let's see what happens. it's interesting, one of my viewers, simon says, uh, the tories went wrong in getting rid of boris. >> you're saying that and i can tell you now, right? this is a sentiment coming through sentiment that's coming through thick guys at thick and fast from you guys at home. when you're looking back thick and fast from you guys at homyou'reen you're looking back thick and fast from you guys at homyou're tracinga looking back thick and fast from you guys at homyou're tracing it.ooking back thick and fast from you guys at homyou're tracing it all ing back thick and fast from you guys at homyou're tracing it all back ack and you're tracing it all back to where did they start going

wrong? the outing boris is wrong? the outing of boris is where saying you're where you guys are saying you're you're feeling like they stopped listening who listening to the people who voted and then instead voted for them and then instead decided, know what? know decided, you know what? we know better you. one of my better than you. one of my viewers, said that when viewers, richard, said that when he the house of he was watching the house of commons screen earlier commons on the screen earlier on, he watching like on, he felt he was watching like an private member's an elitist private member's club. said he was talking club. you said he was talking absolute nonsense. i like rubbish. let richard rubbish. well, i let richard come back said he come back and said what he thinks. at thinks. richard has come back at you, quentin, and says, you know what? would never what? i would never dismiss people's as rubbish people's opinions as rubbish because i have more class seeing, seeing your seeing, he says, seeing your reaction, did i touch reaction, he asked, did i touch a nerve? quentin reaction, he asked, did i touch a n no, ? quentin reaction, he asked, did i touch a n no, he'santin reaction, he asked, did i touch a n no, he'sgot1 reaction, he asked, did i touch a n no, he's got nothing to do >> no, he's got nothing to do with class. it's to do with democracy and the people in that chamber sent by us. yeah. chamber were sent by us. yeah. it's private member's club it's not a private member's club at all. it's not a private member's club at (and people want in >> and if people want to vote in people anderson again, people like lee anderson again, they really importantly they can just really importantly on the maths. michelle, this is so important about how who wins tomorrow. deal tomorrow. if sunak does a deal with his party, he with the right of his party, he could the left of his party could lose the left of his party and the lose this anyway, and lose the lose this anyway, that's the point. >> yeah, i know, but if you if you start cosying up to the left of party, essentially

of your party, then essentially you right your you lose the right of your party. i'm not talking party. and let's i'm not talking about rights and wrongs of it. >> i'm saying, is he going to win? there is a real prospect that he that he might lose. i'm not saying he will but i'm not saying he will lose, but i'm saying if does a deal with saying if he does a deal with one of party, the other one wing of his party, the other wing his party have said wing of his party have said they'll vote against it. >> um, says michelle, do >> donald, um, says michelle, do you what could saw you know what sunak could saw all this out in one? an easy all of this out in one? an easy go. he could just show some courage, of courage, declare a state of emergency boats emergency and turn the boats around. yes, but donald, right. look we're talking about look at what we're talking about here. we're talking about the argy to get argy bargy of trying to get this rwanda the line. we rwanda plan over the line. we can't seem to achieve that can't even seem to achieve that at the moment because you've got such within the such divisions within the tories. do you think? let me tories. how do you think? let me ask this genuine question. tories. how do you think? let me ask do this genuine question. tories. how do you think? let me ask do you genuine question. tories. how do you think? let me ask do you think, ne question. tories. how do you think? let me ask do you think, then,3stion. tories. how do you think? let me ask do you think, then, that]. how do you think, then, that you'd through to you'd get that policy through to do turn backs within the channel? i can't see that happening quentin. happening because you. quentin. >> i think the rule of law >> no, i think the rule of law is important. and i think the pubuc is important. and i think the public understands that that public understands that and that they would not wish the rule of law to be ignored. >> and also that the french won't allow it. michel. that's

the it could be done the point. if it could be done safely and you were actually rescuing these desperate people, and from and yes, they're coming from france tell you, you france. but i can tell you, you have be pretty desperate to have to be pretty desperate to cross the channel if you if it could be done legally. of course, sunak's government wouldn't attempted but wouldn't have attempted it, but the allow the french won't allow it. >> say french >> well, you say that the french don't even to be actually don't even seem to be actually doing we're paying them. doing what we're paying them. god knows many millions to god knows how many millions to do the. do in the. >> mean they'll allow >> does that mean they'll allow this, well, this, though? well well, you know what? >> do you make to this at >> what do you make to this at home? because i do happen to sit here now. we're all pontificating what can you pontificating about what can you do. reform all do. and we reform plan and all the rest it. but ultimately, the rest of it. but ultimately, if you keep allowing to if you keep allowing people to reach and actually reach these shores and actually don't the shores, don't really reach the shores, don't really reach the shores, do they? they get picked up in the and brought here the middle and brought over here half anyway, if half the time. but anyway, if you allow them then to enter the shores in this way and to seek asylum in this way, then you're always have this always going to have this problem. is to problem. surely the way is to stop them entering that water in the place, either by the first place, either by turning pushing back turning back and pushing back those or by setting up those boats or by setting up some asylum, system some kind of asylum, um, system over france, where over there in france, where these are processed there

these claims are processed there before even step foot in before they even step foot in france. that's an option that i don't really feel has been explored. quentin >> i think it has actually. michel and the belgians have been doing good work. vive la belgique or la belgique. uh because they've been doing a great more than the french. great deal more than the french. and, uh, a lot of this is down, i fear, to french resentment of britain and, and some disinclination by, uh, mr macron and starmer. >> don't you think? the government here, quentin, don't you think therefore, whether you agree or not, that agree with starmer or not, that he might stand a better chance of with the french of getting on with the french precisely unlike sunak, of getting on with the french prewasn't unlike sunak, of getting on with the french prewasn't a unlike sunak, of getting on with the french prewasn't a brexiteer..ike sunak, of getting on with the french prewasn't a brexiteer. thereinak, of getting on with the french prewasn't a brexiteer. there may he wasn't a brexiteer. there may be some more freedom of movement for personally in his for him personally in his negotiations with his european partners . partners. >> so don't think i don't >> so i don't think i don't think personalities come into this. my viewers will be >> some of my viewers will be shouting at their screens >> some of my viewers will be shoutin well, heir screens >> some of my viewers will be shoutin well, heir knowrs >> some of my viewers will be shoutin well, heir know what, saying, well, you know what, michel? and michel? you could try and concentrate the minds of the french, couldn't you? when it comes levers around comes to pulling levers around fishing licenses as an example, i'm very to you guys, i'm very keen to bring you guys, um, conversation at um, into this conversation at home. harry says. quentin letts,

i to burst your bubble i need to burst your bubble because heard because after christopher heard saying you're speaking sense, i'm and back the naughty i'm back and back in the naughty step. yeah, it's not barry, actually, it's harry. harry. twitter uh, everyone keeps saying stop calling it twitter. michelle it's called x. i know, but sound the but it doesn't really sound the same, it? uh, anyway, harry same, does it? uh, anyway, harry says quentin letts not says quentin letts does not speak for the public. we want rid the xr. rid of the x xr. >> uh, no, i so do i, but, uh, l, >> uh, no, i so do i, but, uh, ., i— >> uh, no, i so do i, but, uh, i, i certainly don't speak for the public. i'm just a journalist. >> rodney says no one cares about the rwanda policy other than politicians. michelle it's a pointless one out, um, a pointless one in, one out, um, policy . and it's a huge cost. policy. and it's a huge cost. it's absolutely a waste of time. rodney, you make an interesting point there because a lot of people don't understand. i don't think clear cut think it's actually as clear cut as one in, one out, but there's certainly, um, an agreement there have to take there that we would have to take some vulnerable people from some vulnerable people in from rwanda that is rwanda as well. and that is often, you point out, often, as you quite point out, something overlooked. something that is overlooked. william, on twitter, um, said, what a soap opera our politicians are offering us. if a politician resigns, does he or she still draw the salary paid

by the taxpayer? well, of course there's still an mp. um, they're just resigning from one of their roles . um, rachel on x , it just roles. um, rachel on x, it just doesn't feel the same saying x. rachel says politicians, as you said, are not a cult. they're not all indoctrinated. and it takes courage and strength to stand your ground and do whatever the country and the people want. it's labour that are playing by the cult rules. there's a brain between there's hardly a brain between them. that's bob , hang on them. that's rachel bob, hang on one second, because i'm really keen to bring people are my inboxis keen to bring people are my inbox is on fire. you are inbox is on fire. you guys are getting into conversation getting into this conversation tonight, bob at home says michelle, viewers, michelle, one of your viewers, talking it all talking about where did it all go wrong boris ? you're go wrong for boris? you're saying, went wrong saying, well, it went wrong because of his own actions. he lied about everything that he said, lied when he was said, even lied when he was looked at the face and asked whether or not he'd lied. i loved boris, but let's face it, he did this to himself. um, so many people . malcolm says boris many people. malcolm says boris achieved absolutely nothing . all achieved absolutely nothing. all he stood for was net zero. john

says bring boris johnson back now it's the only way the tories will last or stand a chance. the pubuc will last or stand a chance. the public did not vote for sunak. um, valerie says rishi should call it a day now he knows that the tories are done. surely let's have an election because it is painful now to sit and watch this. roger, who on earth is going to represent britain? it's certainly not the current tory party and definitely not the labour party or the rest of the labour party or the rest of the uni party puppets. he says. come on, reform and show us what we've got. one of my other viewers, i've just lost your name. you're just saying, look, let's be clear. you keep talking about disenfranchised tory voters perhaps to voters going over. perhaps to reform. but they say, what about the disenfranchised labour voters ? uh, what about those voters? uh, what about those people ? that is a good point. people? that is a good point. uh, daryl says michelle, i'm absolutely at that. you absolutely shocked at that. you support the rwanda idea. rwanda only have accommodation for 100 migrants. plus, we've spent so much money already . you know much money already. you know what? i'm just sitting there now

thinking deterrent is what you need , daryl says. what we need need, daryl says. what we need to do is turn the boats around. but as we've just been discussing, they ain't got the chops this. at them. chops to do this. look at them. they even get this bill they can't even get this bill passed. boat passed. and pushing the boat around would be next level. i could tell you. now, can you imagine the debates that would be happening? it'd take it. take up whole next year, isn't up the whole next year, isn't it? wouldn't it? i think in the run up to the election, uh, steve for goodness sake, steve says, for goodness sake, the government needs to declare that in the uk that anyone arriving in the uk illegally will illegally in this way will not have asylum claim have their asylum claim considered. them straight considered. send them straight back france . but yes, steve, back to france. but yes, steve, but matt was making the point earlier on that france would they work with it? they actually work with it? margaret says. can you tell quentin he's a snob ? you can quentin he's a snob? you can tell, she says, you can tell that he was furious when one of the great unwashed, he sees the great unwashed, as he sees it, to question his it, dared to question his authority . oh! what authority? authority. oh! what authority? they're all going for you tonight. can i just quickly say people are defending? >> look, i tell you what. may i just say, if it's not snobbish?

i was defending the idea of parliament, which is a very important do not important idea. if you do not out, you don't have to respect the house of commons, but to call private members club call it a private members club is a a factual inaccuracy. is a is a factual inaccuracy. >> good to stick up for democracy get democracy and people will get another chance year. people another chance this year. people will go to the polls. we all will. and we can vote whichever way want indeed, some way we want and indeed, some tories home, some way we want and indeed, some toriego home, some way we want and indeed, some toriego to home, some way we want and indeed, some toriego to reform. home, some way we want and indeed, some toriego to reform. won me, some way we want and indeed, some toriego to reform. won blairome way we want and indeed, some toriego to reform. won blair in1e will go to reform. won blair in 97. not because people particularly to vote particularly wanted to vote labouh particularly wanted to vote labour, because tories labour, but because tories stayed home. and stayed at home. and i think there's going a lot of there's going to be a lot of that time but some that this time around, but some of go to reform rather of them will go to reform rather than sitting on their bottoms. >> says michelle, >> uh, janet, says michelle, what all doing? why are what are you all doing? why are you overlooking the civil servants? i blame them for all this mess. andrew you've just emailed with something that emailed me with something that did chuckle. not did make me chuckle. not suitable for viewing. it suitable for teatime viewing. it was boris. you will know was about boris. you will know what you're referring to. you did me smile. um, stephen what you're referring to. you did michelle.;mile. um, stephen what you're referring to. you did michelle. so .e. um, stephen what you're referring to. you did michelle. so simple.stephen what you're referring to. you did michelle. so simple. again,1 says michelle. so simple. again, you're over complicating everything. four letters echr leave it . leave it. >> i'll just say rwanda have already made it clear, reportedly, that if we break

international law, they are not going to go ahead with this deal going to go ahead with this deal. and that is the irony of all ironies, because i will tell you right here and now, rwanda is safe country for is not a safe country for refugees. whether or not you refugees. but whether or not you think is, only going to think it is, we're only going to send a few of them if we can ever get them on plane in ever get them on the plane in the first place. it doesn't work. immoral, and it shows work. it's immoral, and it shows that party is ready for that the tory party is ready for a spell in wilderness. a spell in the wilderness. i mean, absolutely, i just found that to that absolutely laughable, to be honest. that absolutely laughable, to be hor matthew because >> matthew stadlen because rwanda, some stats rwanda, i've got some stats here. they currently host more than 135,000 people seeking safety and protection. it has a track providing track record of providing protection and supporting people . the refugee agency, as it . the un refugee agency, as it has its own scheme in rwanda and so on and so forth. >> the rwanda un themselves, this is and this is why that supreme court judgement was so smelly . uh, the supreme court smelly. uh, the supreme court took completely the view of the united nations without actually acknowledging that the un itself uses rwanda . uses rwanda. >> it's one thing for the un, maybe to send people from libya.

i'd rather be in rwanda than libya, but i wouldn't rather be in rwanda than here in london. and how many how many asylum seekers killed security seekers were killed by security services rwanda in 2018? how services in rwanda in 2018? how much of vote did the current much of the vote did the current president kagame get at the last election? 99. you've been talking about democracy, quentin. would you like to live talking about democracy, qla1tin. would you like to live talking about democracy, qla countryuld you like to live talking about democracy, qla country where] like to live talking about democracy, qla country where thee to live talking about democracy, qla country where the president in a country where the president gets 99% of the vote? the supreme court was making a supreme court was not making a relative judgement. >> it was saying that rwanda is relative judgement. >> a was saying that rwanda is relative judgement. >> a safe saying that rwanda is relative judgement. >> a safe country,1at rwanda is relative judgement. >> a safe country, buttwanda is relative judgement. >> a safe country, but it's1da is relative judgement. >> a safe country, but it's notis not a safe country, but it's not it's well it is it's not safe. well it is because sending refugees because they're sending refugees there. they must they must there. so they must they must consider safe. consider it safe. >> one my viewers you >> one of my viewers says, you know all arguing know what? you're all arguing over absolute ridiculousness. rwanda irrelevant. it rwanda is irrelevant. will it ever actually off? um, at ever actually get off? um, at all? you ever think there'll all? do you ever think there'll be a day when a plane does take off and actually stays off, stays there because people stays up in there because people are these planes? are on these planes? i've noficed are on these planes? i've noticed recently. they noticed this recently. they can't get can't help themselves. they get stuck get stuck in. stuck in, they get stuck in. they do good as aren't they they do good as aren't they? they see someone being deported. themselves deported. they get themselves involved. they get that kid. the man the plane and who man turfed off the plane and who would it? turns out would believe it? it turns out that the is being deported

that the guy is being deported because he's an absolute wrong'un that's committed. god only knows what crimes, and that's sometimes that's why he's going. sometimes ladies try not ladies and gents, try not sticking nose in when you sticking your nose in when you don't of the details. don't know all of the details. anyway, look , uh, long story anyway, look, uh, long story short, if you are just joining us tonight, the tory rwanda rebels, they have being defeated. rishi sunak , of defeated. rishi sunak, of course, will be sweating because we've seen huge rebellions. the fed reading tomorrow night, of course , being the crucial one. course, being the crucial one. leandersson resigned, as has of course, brendan clarke—smith up has popped richard tice offering lee anderson a job. it's all going on. we will continue this conversation after the break with farage. but for now, chaps, thank you. thank you. at home tonight . tonight. >> while over 600 days ago we were promised that planes would go to rwanda, not a single plane is left. the conservative party divided in the house of commons tonight. also seen tonight. and we've also seen some resignations. also so quite

some resignations. also so quite some drama on this side of the pondin some drama on this side of the pond in iowa last night. some drama on this side of the pond in iowa last night . and pond in iowa last night. and i'll be reporting live from the trump victory party here in iowa. it has been a massive win for donald j. trump. does that mean the primaries are over and he can get on with the campaign? but first, let's get the . news but first, let's get the. news >> well good evening . it's been >> well good evening. it's been a busy night tonight in parliament. parliament has been voting on the government's controversial rwanda bill, which aims to stop the small boats crisis . the aims to stop the small boats crisis. the amendment, tabled by bill cash has been rejected. you can see the scene live now in the commons. earlier mps voted 529 to 68. that's a majority of 461. well, the cash amendment was supported by the dup today. but the amendment tabled by the former immigration minister robert jenrick, was also defeated . mps