>> good morning to you. welcome to the camilla tominey show. it's been another busy week for us in westminster. rishi sunak did just about get his rwanda bill through the house of commons despite opposition from left and right, the controversial legislation is now set to go to the house of lords, but with peers threatening but with some peers threatening sabotage , will it remain intact .7 sabotage, will it remain intact? i'll be asking exactly that of defence secretary grant shapps, who will also give us an update on the wars in ukraine. varne in the middle also be

the middle east. i'll also be joined by shadow immigration minister kinnock. what's minister stephen kinnock. what's labour's plan to the boats? labour's plan to stop the boats? i'll be speaking to robert jenrick, the man who resigned as immigration after immigration minister, after saying just saying the legislation just wasn't enough . we'll also wasn't tough enough. we'll also speak to one of those unelected peers who might just try to water down the government's rwanda plan. that's lord alex carlile, has branded the carlile, who has branded the bill a step towards totalitarianism. earlier in the week. and after both the king and the princess of wales revealed health problems. this week, i'll speak to an author on all things royal. the author and journalist robert hardman . journalist robert hardman. well, let's let's get kick started with the papers now with patrick o'flynn. he's a spectator columnist and a former ukip mep, also my former colleague at express newspapers back in the day, patrick lovely to see you. obviously in the aftermath of the rwanda bill passing through the commons just

about last week , that rebellion about last week, that rebellion proved to be a bit of a damp squib. there's lots of coverage on could happen next, on what could happen next, whether going hit whether it's going to hit too many hurdles lords. um, many hurdles in the lords. um, there's of rishi sunak there's analysis of rishi sunak and whether he's stuck between a rock and a hard place and what he does next with a view to what he does next with a view to what he seems to be facing, which is electoral oblivion. what do you make i mean, he did make of it? i mean, he did squeak the legislature through, but pyrrhic victory? but is it a pyrrhic victory? >> i think it probably will turn out to be a pyrrhic victory. camilla and, um , it's an camilla and, um, it's an interesting story. first of all, i'd like to turn to in the observer on page two of the observer on page two of the observer today, which says that there be early skirmish there will be an early skirmish in as soon as in the lords as soon as tomorrow, because labour tomorrow, because the labour former attorney general, lord goldsmith, has got a motion which seeks really to give more weight to the supreme court's verdict that rwanda couldn't be classified as a safe country. and even though it's more of a symbolic thing in the lords tomorrow, uh, goldsmith is trying really to delay the

effect of the rwanda law to say there would need to be a bedding in time when rwanda would need to show that it had changed its ways. and of course, we're operating to an incredibly tight timetable here. uh, whereas if rishi sunak can't get both planes off before the general election, then the public faith in him will collapse entirely. so i think you can see a labour strategy may turn out to be more about delay, rather than do what perhaps the tories would like to, and line themselves up entirely with the so—called unelected elite in the house of lords. i think that might be the way labour's opposition plays out. >> although might be >> although that might be convenient the prime convenient to the prime minister. although it doesn't seem the face of it, seem so on the face of it, because, the tories because, of course, the tories can turn around and say can then turn around and say that the are delaying this that the lords are delaying this plan. having blamed european plan. and having blamed european judges they judges and lefty lawyers, they can peers are can then say unelected peers are stopping stopping the stopping us from stopping the boats . boats. >> @ e“— >> well, indeed. and yet, you know a very long time, um, that the conservatives have never brought a plan to reform the

house of lords. so it's very much the legislative system that they support. and i think , they support. and i think, again, the mood in the country is to stop seeking scapegoat votes and grasp nettles and do whatever, as in rishi sunak famous phrase, whatever it takes to stop the boats. well if the lords needed reforming so these lily livered lefty lawyers hadnt lily livered lefty lawyers hadn't got a veto, that clearly should have been done some time ago. >> but hull, whatever it takes, has got shades of ed miliband's am i tough? hell yeah. it's kind of like slightly unconvincing from rishi sunak that, um, let's speak about him and his premiership, because got premiership, because we've got a long in the sunday times as long read in the sunday times as even long read in the sunday times as ever, talking about the big squeeze, idea that rishi ever, talking about the big squeezis idea that rishi ever, talking about the big squeezis between that rishi ever, talking about the big squeezis between a1at rishi ever, talking about the big squeezis between a rockishi ever, talking about the big squeezis between a rock and a sunak is between a rock and a hard place because on one hand, he's obviously reform he's got obviously reform and nigel champing at the bit nigel farage champing at the bit and trying seize tory seats, and trying to seize tory seats, particularly in leave areas. and then, of course, you've got labour and the lib dems bringing up the rear, or in fact leading from the front. you could say as far as the polling is concerned,

for labour party. for the labour party. >> yeah, this is very well sourced, with, uh, sourced, as is usual with, uh, tim uh, pieces in the tim shipman, uh, pieces in the sunday times and one of the first the first places that the westminster village would look to a sunday. and i think this to on a sunday. and i think this this long read has got the hallmarks of being relatively, relatively more heavily briefed from downing street than from the so—called rebels. uh, and basically just just pleading for the tory mps to see sense and that that the right wing of the party can't get what it wants without splitting the party. and as you say, opening more pressure. >> pressure. >> the left wing can't get it what it wants without splitting the party. i mean, i get this whole unite or die thing, but at the end of the day, there are some conservatives that don't like what their own government is doing. exactly. is doing. no, exactly. >> and there's a very interesting, the interesting, um, line in the piece that i picked out about lord frost saying that knows lord frost saying that he knows who the pollsters were, who produced this very or funded. sorry, donors who funded sorry, the donors who funded this very difficult poll for rishi isn't it, that is rishi sunak, isn't it, that is former boris backers. >> nobody saying rishi hasn't

moved dial . moved the dial. >> the line is that lord >> but the line is that lord frost is looking for a safe seat to win, and they mention a particular seat which is coming up for grabs. but some people at the of tory party are the top of the tory party are now wonder whether it's such a goodidea now wonder whether it's such a good idea to give him a so good idea to give him a seat. so that's his card being marked. the head appearing on the horse's head appearing on his pillow. me >> um, yeah. well, you talk about mafia , so references, of about mafia, so references, of course. um, some of the parties, some of the caucuses on the right known the five right are known as the five families. um, not enough people coming forward, um, to become tory candidates as the express just briefly on that. patrick. >> i'm bit sceptical of >> well, i'm a bit sceptical of that. it says relatively that. it says even in relatively safe seats. well i don't know if the express knows something that the express knows something that the of the country doesn't, the rest of the country doesn't, but relatively the rest of the country doesn't, but seats? relatively the rest of the country doesn't, but seats? certainlyzly the rest of the country doesn't, but seats? certainly heard safe seats? i've certainly heard that the candidates are coming forward, for the tories are sort of plodders rather than superstars this time, but i don't think they'll have any actual difficulty filling slate. >> recruiting their patch, >> recruiting on their patch, haven't they've put their >> recruiting on their patch, havenon they've put their >> recruiting on their patch, havenon tory's hey've put their >> recruiting on their patch, havenon tory's lawns. put their tanks on tory's lawns. absolutely a quick, um, comment

on this, uh, twitter sort of vibe message that was actually on the bottom of a telegraph story related to the story we had yesterday on the front, basically saying that 16,000 are asylum seekers who came here illegally by boat, have ended up being given jobs , given jobs, being given jobs, given jobs, and still having most of their accommodation paid for. >> and it's supposed to be an article of faith that asylum seekers cannot work, because to allow them to would be a massive pull factor for more people to try their luck. now, i think this conservatives this is why the conservatives are going to lose the general election badly . and it's election very badly. and it's a letter from a man called matthew mackey, who's 58 years old, a very good age to be white, working class family man with three children. he works in the west midlands in the automobile sector. his wife works in the care worker and he was so in the care worker and he was so in the care sector. he was so incensed by the telegraph splash about illegal immigrants being allowed to work that he's written to work that he's he's written a series of questions that government ministers need to answer. i suggest can anybody

tell me why i bother? he says, why bother working when so many now, including illegal immigrants , seem to be respected immigrants, seem to be respected more and looked after better? he says. what's the point in getting up every morning and trying after country? trying to look after my country? when country has turned its when my country has turned its back on? working people back on? hard working people like is like me? now he is demographically absolutely bullseye for whoever whichever party wants to win the next election. and i suggest with people like him thinking that with good reason, well, he's not going be the tories that he won't. >> look, i'll put that question to shapps when i speak to to grant shapps when i speak to him a little later in the show. let's talk about the situation with school in with the michaela school in brent london. um, katharine brent in london. um, katharine birbalsingh the, uh, birbalsingh is the, uh, britain's strictest headmistress . they call her. has got a problem on her hands because one pupil has taken the school to the high court after she suggested should not suggested that pupils should not be pray in the be allowed to pray in the playground. a of a playground. it's a bit of a development because the development on it because the schoolgirl in the prayer row was apparently suspended . apparently suspended. >> to the mail on >> and according to the mail on sunday, the schoolgirl complainant suspended for

complainant was suspended for making some sort of a threat which could have involved, uh, you know, a serious assault on another pupil. >> so she might have a vested interest in taking the school to court? >> yes, she might indeed. and you know, the whole point of katharine birbalsingh and the michaela academy it rests on michaela academy is it rests on the authority of the headteacher to tight ship , to run an to run a tight ship, to run an integrated, cohesive school community in an area , you know, community in an area, you know, of very high diversity . and of very high diversity. and she's delivered so much for children from deprived backgrounds. >> target for the left when she's improved school standards and results. absolutely. for some of the most disadvantaged aged children in that area, i don't understand it. >> i think it's an unholy alliance between the left. on the one hand, and also some fairly hard core conservative islamic uh, camps owners as well. now, i suspect that that there'll be a good number of muslim parents who want katharine birbalsingh to win because the flashpoint is over. prayer facilities for muslim

pupils who form nearly half of the school community and katharine birbalsingh has always been adamant about it being a secular school and not breaking up people into little conscious, uh, communities. up people into little conscious, uh, communities . and she's also uh, communities. and she's also told the mail on sunday that she now doesn't personally feel safe. no, she's received death threats, bomb threats on the school. >> i mean, and so we need to see zero tolerance of attempts to undermine school authorities. we'll court we'll be watching that court case think it case carefully. i think it concludes next month. um, let's talk about trump . i mean, he's talk about trump. i mean, he's in the papers a lot after iowa seems to be streets ahead. there's over whether there's some debate over whether trump be good for the trump will be good for the world, bad for the world, good or bad for the world. trump, do you world. donald trump, do you think, you've forgiven think, patrick, you've forgiven him january 6th? think, patrick, you've forgiven hinwell,3nuary 6th? think, patrick, you've forgiven hinwell,3nuasurprised|? think, patrick, you've forgiven hinwell,3nua surprised that >> well, i'm surprised that america forgiven him because america has forgiven him because i when the insurrection i thought when the insurrection happened that that was it for him. but i think the democrats have played him so badly and they've left the an open goal on on of border security on their lack of border security . uh, that he's back and they're most unwise try and beat him most unwise to try and beat him in law courts. you know,

in the law courts. you know, it's up to the people in the end. he almost end. and i think he almost certainly going to be the certainly is going to be the republican nominee. >> just flashed >> and we just flashed up a story in the sunday telegraph just talking nikki just talking about nikki haley, who falling behind. who seems to be falling behind. i it be an idea i mean, wouldn't it be an idea for to a so—called for trump to form a so—called dream ticket with her? i'm not sure whether for it, though. >> yeah, perhaps. but i think she's a classic traditional republican party. you know , uh, republican party. you know, uh, right wing on economics , uh, you right wing on economics, uh, you know, on foreign policy very much in, in the, the line of supporting nato at all costs and just very conventional . i don't just very conventional. i don't really see it as a as an easy working relationship . if he did working relationship. if he did choose her, a quick word on bofis choose her, a quick word on boris johnson's op ed in the mail yesterday, basically saying trump should be re—elected, he's better for the case for world peace. better for the case for world peace . well, i think boris, it's peace. well, i think boris, it's typically opportunist and i think he's aware that, you know, trump called him britain. trump back in the day. and the idea of their careers have kind of gone in in parallel, really out in

disgrace. so if trump comes back and maybe that's good for the idea of boris is coming back, but but boris remember, was the absolute number one defender of ukraine and zelenskyy trump says if he wins the presidency , he'll if he wins the presidency, he'll end the war in 24 hours. that can only be by pulling the plug on zelenskyy and make him do a deal with putin. >> but johnson a very bad position. let's have a very quick squiz at the observer because they've a nice because they've got a nice history ad campaigns. history of tory ad campaigns. let's just have look at some let's just have a look at some of them now. we'll remember labour working the labour isn't working and the whole which was whole dole queue, which was extremely effective. there's the other alex salmond other one of alex salmond with ed top pocket, ed miliband in his top pocket, but campaign, which but the latest campaign, which is meant to kind of take is meant to be this kind of take on, um, let's call saul, which is like a reference to breaking bad saying, let's call bad and it's saying, let's call keir because it's basically saying that . and he this saying that. and he made this point pmqs didn't he? rishi point in pmqs didn't he? rishi sunak, you know, um, we try and ban terrorist s keir tries to defend them. is that an effective attack line, do you think, um , i think it could be think, um, i think it could be slightly effective if the country was in a mood to sort

of. >> mull returned the conservatives for yet another turn, which i don't think it is. so um, i think generally keir starmer gets the benefit of the doubt of having a long legal career and, you know, got involved in some cases that he might not ideally chosen to. yeah absolutely. and clearly you know, he's well to the left of what he poses as now. but i think the country has got this this, uh position with the conservatives. we just want you gone. so i struggle to think there could be an advert so brilliantly designed that it could change that would be quite the advert. >> but let's wait and see. patrick o'flynn, thank you very much joining this much for joining me this morning. don't anywhere morning. well, don't go anywhere because we're to be joined because we're going to be joined by secretary grant by defence secretary grant shapps after the weather. a brighter outlook solar brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> good morning. welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast. i'm craig snow. we're looking ahead to today. it is turning

very stormy. we have storm isha moving across the country as we go through the course of the next 24 hours. initially this morning across parts of east anglia , south east england would anglia, south east england would get a fairly dry and get off to a fairly dry and bright chilly start bright but chilly start elsewhere , we're elsewhere, we're seeing increasing and these increasing cloud and these outbreaks moving in the outbreaks of rain moving in the rain heaviest and most rain will be heaviest and most persistent parts of persistent across parts of scotland, north—west england and eventually and eventually into wales too. and for many western parts, the winds really increasing as the afternoon goes on. technically a very mild day for the time of yean very mild day for the time of year, but factor in the wind and rain, it's not going to feel anywhere near as mild as these temperatures suggest into the night time period, and the wind and rain stretches right across the some very strong winds, the uk. some very strong winds, especially northern especially across more northern and could see and western parts, could see gusts reaching 70 to 80 miles an hour some coastline, so hour along some coastline, so enough some disruption as we enough for some disruption as we start morning does start monday morning does technically start off on a fairly mild note for the time of yean fairly mild note for the time of year, but do allow some extra time journeys because time for some journeys because there could be, as i said, some disruption. courtesy of storm isha. will start to

isha. the winds will start to decrease go through decrease as we go through a monday morning, and really we'll see a day of sunny spells and scattered showers . showers most scattered showers. showers most frequent across parts of scotland and northern ireland, but any one will see the but almost any one will see the odd shower as the day goes on. temperatures generally range in between high single figures in the north potentially double figures in the south. >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show grant shapps . the tominey show grant shapps. the defence secretary joins me now. he's also the tory mp for welwyn hatfield. shapps, lovely to hatfield. mr shapps, lovely to see morning. thank you see you this morning. thank you for time , the for sparing the time, um, the chair nato's military chair of nato's military committee, dutch admiral rob bauen committee, dutch admiral rob bauer, strong bauer, has given a strong indication that nato could be at war with russia within 20 years. do you agree with that assessment? don't i mean, the truth of the matter is, as i said in my speech on on monday at lancaster house here in

london, and the comments from nato are really reflecting and echoing, that is, no one really knows, which is why we need to be prepared for whatever comes . be prepared for whatever comes. >> and i don't think it's inevitable. i think it depends inevitable. i think it depends in small on what happens in no small part on what happens with putin in ukraine, where he simply cannot be allowed to win that war, where he walked in on a democratic neighbour and invaded. and our response is part of making sure that he doesn't feel that he's emboldened enough to go to war. >> are we well prepared enough , >> are we well prepared enough, though? i note general lord dannatt , who, of course, was the dannatt, who, of course, was the former chief of the general staff, he said, quote , the staff, he said, quote, the woeful state of our armed forces in the mid 1930s fell to deter hitler or prevent the second world war in the holocaust. there is a serious danger of history repeating itself. the government or the next one should commit now to spending 3% of gdp on defence. he's not wrong , is he? at the moment, wrong, is he? at the moment, i believe you're at 12. 1. you need to get to 2.5. but surely

in light of the threat, not just from russia, but also china and what's going on in the red sea, right now, defence spending should be at 3, shouldn't it? minister >> oh, well, our defence spending is the largest it's ever been at over £50 billion. and it's about two and a quarter probably right now. um, and we agree it needs to go higher. in fact, the government's committed as conditions allow to go to 2.5. and we think that is absolutely right to go in that. in fact, my entire speech on monday was about this subject, about how we prepare for what is undoubtedly a more dangerous world. so you're seeing everybody commenting in different ways about the state of the world. nato uh, richard dannatt there as you just mentioned, and we're at myself on monday, we're all concerned that we need to have that plan in place, and we have a plan, and we're investing 288 billion, billion pounds over the next decade to make sure that we do pump more money into our

military, into our equipment, and that we can safely defend ourselves and britain's leading the way. as i said, in ukraine. but actually also this week , i but actually also this week, i announced operation in europe announced an operation in europe called steadfast defender , which called steadfast defender, which is a nato operation which the united kingdom is providing 40% of the ground troops and 50% of the overall personnel . and even the overall personnel. and even though there were 32 countries in total involved in this. so we really are leading from the front in the uk, although we do understand that we don't have enough sailors to staff support vessels , it's also vessels for frigates, it's also the number of regular soldiers has that story. >> okay , so tell us what is the >> okay, so tell us what is the truth of the because it truth of the story? because it has widely reported that we has been widely reported that we don't has been widely reported that we dont enough has been widely reported that we don't enough sailors. don't have enough sailors. meanwhile shapps, we see that meanwhile mr shapps, we see that regular soldier numbers have fallen 40% since 2010. fallen by 40% since 2010. >> so, first of all, on the on, i saw the story saying that we couldn't, uh, send the carrier strike group out, but the story is completely untrue. in fact, we are sending the carrier strike group out as part of that

steadfast defender operation i mentioned a moment ago. and when it numbers , uh, it is it comes to numbers, uh, it is true that the plan is to have 73,000, uh , troops full time , 73,000, uh, troops full time, uh, army troops, but the overall military is much bigger than that. it's very close to 189,000 right now. and just looking at numbers is not that reliable in terms of how ready we are to fight. and you've seen whether that's providing the support in ukraine or just in the last week or so . uh, the support ukraine or just in the last week or so. uh, the support in terms of attacking or preventing the attacks from the houthis on shipping and in particular on hms diamond, which i was on on thursday when we need to do things, we are capable and able to do it. it is true that there is there are strong recruitment issues. i'm pleased to report. actually, i just talking to actually, i was just talking to the head of the who tells the head of the army who tells me that applications are at a high for the last six years, so we will make sure that we keep people coming into the army. if you're watching this and you're interested, please apply.

>> um , your colleague robert >> um, your colleague robert jenrick for both the jenrick has called for both the houthis and indeed the iranian revolutionary guard corps , both revolutionary guard corps, both to be prescribed as terrorist groups. what's your reaction to that? well we always keep prescription under very, very close review. >> there are always pros and cons with with doing this , you cons with with doing this, you lose diplomatic relations , uh, lose diplomatic relations, uh, and that type of thing when it comes to the houthis in particular. and as i say, i've just been down to the red sea. they don't have of, uh, very much connect activity to this country in the same way. but we'll look at that very carefully. we are already ensuring that we have quite a number of their individual leaders who are already sanctioned in this country. but i know the home secretary will be looking at all of that very carefully indeed. >> i mean, isn't iran at the root of a lot of these problems? what's uk doing about iran what's the uk doing about iran in general ? in general? >> yes, yes. if you look at that situation throughout the region, throughout the middle east, you've iranian backed

you've got the iranian backed houthis, got lebanese houthis, you've got lebanese hezbollah, you've got hamas themselves trained by iran, you've got militant groups in iraq and in syria. they are firmly behind a lot of these problems, and we are increasing our pressure on them. in fact, you know, because there are diplomatic relations, for example, the foreign secretary has been speaking to his iranian opposite number and saying, you have to put a lid on this. we understand. well, is he listening? tell us that they don't want to see this this conflict clearly not when it comes to the houthis for example. and it's a very, very dangerous game for them to be playing. and we calling on playing. and we are calling on them like china, who them and others like china, who have interest, for example , have an interest, for example, particularly in the trade that comes the sea and comes through the red sea and the suez canal , to make that the suez canal, to make that message, particularly clear to the iranians that this no good can come of this, and they need to calm and cool the situation in the region. >> if unelected peers try and block the rwanda bill through the house of lords , do you think

the house of lords, do you think the house of lords, do you think the government should consider reforming the house of lords ? reforming the house of lords? >> well, look, the people i'm most concerned about who will block it in there are keir starmer's labour party . we don't starmer's labour party. we don't have a majority in the house of lords because labour can block us in coalition with the lib dems, so the person who can unblock this in the lords rather than saying peers, are blocking it, it's labour who will be blocking it. they're blocking it, but they don't. they can't say what they would do about these small they don't these small boats. they don't even plan . we have a even have a plan. we have a plan. we're carrying it out. we've seen the number of small boats crossings being slashed by 36. this year, which has been exceptional . we'd like to go exceptional. we'd like to go further. think the rwanda further. we think the rwanda plan of that. keir plan is part of that. keir starmer has no plan. he'll take us back to square one. he us right back to square one. he even said last week on television if the television that even if the rwanda plan working and rwanda plan is working and stopping boats , he stopping the small boats, he would overturn if he would still overturn it if he were he has no were to get elected. he has no plan . he'd take us back to plan. he'd take us back to square one. although square this circle us, please .

circle for us, please. >> shapps, on one hand, >> mr shapps, on one hand, you've introduced a rwanda bill to act a deterrent to people to act as a deterrent to people coming here by illegal boat crossing , coming here by illegal boat crossing, claiming asylum. you say they're economic migrants? we now understand . and according we now understand. and according to a front page story on the telegraph yesterday, that . telegraph yesterday, that. 16,000 asylum seekers who came here illegally have been allowed to work. what message does that send out to people who are paying send out to people who are paying people smugglers , paying people smugglers, thousands to come here? on one hand, it's meant to be a deterrent. this bill on the other people are coming here illegally and you're handing them work . them work. >> well, look, i don't know the specifics of that individual. >> those are the specifics. i do stated them . stated them. >> sure. what i was going to say is, what i do know for sure is that we have taken measures , that we have taken measures, measure after measure, including multiple bills through parliament, in order to try to crack down on this problem, not without success, as i say, a slash of well over a third in terms of the numbers travelling

here by small boats in 2023. so it's been working every single thing that we have done has been absolutely opposed by the lawyer keir starmer, who has spent his entire career defending what he calls the human rights of people who are being people trafficked illegally, dangerously by these people , of people smugglers people, of people smugglers 16,000 of them have been handed jobs. >> so, i mean, we spoke earlier. ispoke >> so, i mean, we spoke earlier. i spoke to patrick o'flynn, my paper reviewer, about the response to that by a telegraph reader to this story. a man called matthew mckay. he said he was 50 years old, 58 years old. he's from a white working class family. he's got three children. his wife's a care worker. he said, can anybody tell me why i bother ? what is the point of bother? what is the point of working when so many now, including illegal immigrants, seem to be respected more and certainly looked after better? what is the point in getting up every morning and trying to look

after my country? when my country has turned its back on hard working people like me? he's right, isn't he? minister >> no, i don't think that is a fair reflection at all. we have record low unemployment in this country. record high levels of employment . there are jobs, in employment. there are jobs, in fact , we were just employment. there are jobs, in fact, we were just talking about the lack of the problems of recruiting a few moments ago. there are jobs for people in this country. we also have developed, as i say , in terms of developed, as i say, in terms of that illegal migration and those small boats, a whole series of different bills, acts of law . different bills, acts of law. >> but why is the government prevent this? allowing illegal migrants , illegal migrants to migrants, illegal migrants to work ? is it because, as we all work? is it because, as we all suspect, the home office is a basket case and can't keep track of half these people ? of half these people? >> well, look, as i say and i don't know the specific answers to that particular cohort that you should. >> they be working with these illegal migrants, but what i but but what i do know is that we

have consistently tightened up the rules to make sure that that people can't come here and then claim asylum if they are, in fact, economic migrants. >> and that is a very, very key point, all of which would be overturned by keir starmer and the labour party because they have forced us tooth and nail. they can't say what they would do. they don't have a plan to sort it out. >> you can't answer my question, but they're happy to tell but they're very happy to tell there. i'm afraid i'm there. well, i'm afraid i'm going to try for a final time. i'm try a final. i'm going to try a final. >> you can just a final time, mr shapps. >> should people coming here illegally be allowed to illegally by boat be allowed to work, or think work, yes or no? i think the answer i think in general the answer is i think in general the answer is i think in general the answer is i think in general the answer is clearly no, because if

welcome back to the camilla tominey show. so much more to come in the next hour i'll be interviewing labour's shadow immigration minister, stephen kinnock. how his party kinnock. how would his party deal boat crossings? deal with small boat crossings? but first, here's the news with sam francis . sam francis. >> camilla, thank you very much. and good morning from the gb news room. the headlines at just after 10:00. well, our top story today. the uk is bracing for the ninth named storm of this season andifs ninth named storm of this season and it's a potential record breaker named storm asia. forecasters are warning of powerful winds of up to 80 miles

an hour, with coastal areas particularly at risk travel disruption is also expected , disruption is also expected, with some roads and bridges as precaution , and police are precaution, and police are advising against any unnecessary travel. that comes as amber weather warnings are in place in the north and west of england, wales, northern ireland and parts of scotland . meanwhile, parts of scotland. meanwhile, israel's prime minister is rowing back on suggestions of a two state solution with palestine . benjamin netanyahu palestine. benjamin netanyahu appeared to double down on his position, posting to social media that he won't compromise on full israeli security control over the entire area of west of jordan, which he says is contrary to a palestinian state. that's despite friday's call with us president joe biden , with us president joe biden, where he appeared to be open to some two state proposals . well, some two state proposals. well, back here in the uk , tax cuts back here in the uk, tax cuts could be on the way this spring as the chancellor looks to relieve pressure on families ahead of the budget in march. jeremy hunt says the current tax relief is working, as he pledged to stick to the government's

plans. estimate that plans. economists estimate that he could be handed up to £10 billion by official forecast next week, paving the way for some cuts to some taxes in spring. detectives investigating the deaths of four people in norfolk have now confirmed that they're not looking for anyone else in connection with that incident. the bodies of two young girls and a 36 year old woman, and a 45 year old man were found in a house on alan bedford crescent on friday morning. it comes after norfolk police referred itself to the independent watchdog after failing to respond to a999 call from a home where those four bodies were found . postmortem bodies were found. postmortem examinations will be carried out later today , and tens of later today, and tens of thousands of people are taking to the streets across germany. that's in protest against a right wing political party. marchers carrying banners saying against hate and defend democracy , among others, are democracy, among others, are gathering in more than 100 cities and towns across the country. it comes after reports

revealed a recent secret meeting involving a popular alternative german party, where they apparently discussed the mass deportation of millions of people from so—called non—german backgrounds, which would also include many german citizens as well. that's the latest from the gb newsroom. for now, i'll be back at the top of the hour. in the meantime , we're on tv, on the meantime, we're on tv, on digital, radio and on your smart speaken digital, radio and on your smart speaker. just play news. speaker. just say play gb news. now, though, head back to now, though, let's head back to camilla in westminster. thanks sam. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show still lots more to come in just a minute. i'm going to be speaking to stephen kinnock, shadow immigration minister jenrick former minister robert jenrick, former immigration minister who resigned over the government's rwanda was join me in rwanda bill, was also join me in the studio. i'll be speaking to lord alex carlile. he's a crossbench peer. will he try and frustrate as it frustrate the rwanda bill as it passes the house of lords passes into the house of lords and the labour mp barry gardiner, going to joining gardiner, is going to be joining me to discuss why he thinks leaseholds be scrapped.

leaseholds should be scrapped. and the royal leaseholds should be scrapped. and who's the royal leaseholds should be scrapped. and who's written the royal leaseholds should be scrapped. and who's written the; royal leaseholds should be scrapped. and who's written the book. expert who's written the book. everyone is talking about, will also the studio. so a jam also be in the studio. so a jam packed show still for the next houn packed show still for the next hour. don't go anywhere. stephen kinnock immigration kinnock, shadow immigration minister mp minister and the labour mp for aberavon, joins me now aberavon, are also joins me now in studio. tata steel in the studio. the tata steel plant in port talbot is in his constituency. going to ask constituency. i'm going to ask you that in a moment. you about that in just a moment. stephen, first of all, i don't know if you did catch grant shapps because i know you were doing interviews doing other interviews this morning, secretary morning, the defence secretary basically rwanda basically saying if the rwanda bill house of bill fails in the house of lords, all labour's fault. lords, it's all labour's fault. well this typical of what we well this is typical of what we hear ministers. >> just m- everybody. >> rather wrong if you block it. i mean, you know, you've got an elected government who's got this through, this legislation through, albeit the rebellion was the rebellion that was threatened materialise. threatened didn't materialise. so democratic speaking it should go through the house of lords on challenge labour, shouldn't challenge by labour, shouldn't it? constantly it? but they're constantly trying everyone. trying to blame everyone. >> take >> rather than take responsibility. they blame laboun responsibility. they blame labour, lawyers, they labour, they blame lawyers, they blame , they blame blame judges, they blame the european they european union, they blame anyone rather than taking responsibility. are the responsibility. they are the government of the day. they have

a the lords. yes, a majority in the lords. yes, and a majority commons. and a majority in the commons. so idea that we block so this idea that we block things is complete nonsense. >> saying that you are >> they're saying that you are blocking attempts stop blocking their attempts to stop the boats. presumably the boats. i mean, presumably you to stop the boats. you do want to stop the boats. labour 100, of labour wants to stop 100, of course. therefore you should support that's support the legislation. that's been designed to do that. you should probably be encouraged, in fact, that some of the righties tory party righties of the tory party didn't succeed their didn't succeed in their amendments, have amendments, which would have toughened actually, toughened the law up. actually, it supported by the one it was supported by the one nafion it was supported by the one nation left nation group that are more left leaning party that leaning in the tory party that should the labour party should make the labour party happy, it's not the sort of happy, that it's not the sort of right wing legislation that people feared, it's a bit people feared, that it's a bit softer should softer and therefore it should go upper chamber go through the upper chamber unchallenged because unchallenged. well, because you want boats. well we want to stop the boats. well we voted against the right wing amendments that came forward because they would be undermining commitment because they would be unthenining commitment because they would be unthe rule g commitment because they would be unthe ruleg law. commitment to the rule of law. >> and would never support >> and we would never support that. this bill will be treated like any other bill in the house of the job the house of lords. the job of the house of lords. the job of the house of lords. the job of the house of lords is to scrutinise. it's a revising chamber. looks a revising chamber. it looks at legislation to legislation and it seeks to point its weaknesses and point out its weaknesses and looks to improve but at looks to improve them. but at the end of the day, every bill

that the of that goes through the will of the would you? the people here, would you? >> it's a democratically >> i mean, it's a democratically elected government that's come up with this legislation in the labour party is called i believe, the house of lords believe, for the house of lords to be scrapped the past. so to be scrapped in the past. so you wouldn't want to be supporting unelected peers blocking legislation that's going would you? >> their job is you? >> theirjob is to scrutinise to >> their job is to scrutinise to and revise and seek to improve. but if you look at things like the migration bill, the illegal migration bill, a complete and utter waste of time, that's totally time, that's been totally counterproductive. and the government enacted government hasn't even enacted the it just makes the bill because it just makes everything worse. but we didn't the bill because it just makes everytit.|g worse. but we didn't the bill because it just makes everytit. i worse. but we didn't the bill because it just makes everytit. i mean,. but we didn't the bill because it just makes everytit. i mean,. bwente didn't block it. i mean, it went through in the end. there was a lot the parliamentary lot of in the parliamentary terme ping pong, where the two chambers to each other, chambers talked to each other, seek to amend, seek revise. seek to amend, seek to revise. but of the day, the but at the end of the day, the government majority the government has a majority in the commons majority the commons and the majority in the lords. frankly, all of this lords. so, frankly, all of this is a big red herring is just a big red herring because the government never wants responsibility wants to take responsibility for its and its own its own actions and its own failures. >> moment, you seem to be >> at the moment, you seem to be sort of attributing a great deal of responsibility house of responsibility to the house of responsibility to the house of of scrutinise of lords to sort of scrutinise and and make better and change and make better legislation. hang on

legislation. but hang on a minute. labour wants to scrap the so why the house of lords, so why are you supporting of you supporting the house of lords anything with this lords doing anything with this bill? don't want these bill? if you don't want these peers to be there in the first place? >> well, we have a system based on parliamentary democracy. there chambers. there's on parliamentary democracy. the house chambers. there's on parliamentary democracy. the house of chambers. there's on parliamentary democracy. the house of lords1bers. there's on parliamentary democracy. the house of lords and;. there's on parliamentary democracy. the house of lords and the |ere's on parliamentary democracy. the house of lords and the house the house of lords and the house of chamber. right. well the house of lords and the house of made chamber. right. well the house of lords and the house of made it1amber. right. well the house of lords and the house of made it1ambeunder1t. well the house of lords and the house of made it1ambeunder the iell we've made it clear under the gordon brown that we gordon brown review that we want to and at different to review and look at different options. there are clearly, clearly serious questions about the the the democratic legitimacy of the house of lords. >> lords exercising too much power, then. >> where are now in terms >> but where we are now in terms of having of lords with >> but where we are now in terms of rfunction of lords with >> but where we are now in terms of rfunction that of lords with >> but where we are now in terms of rfunction that it)f lords with >> but where we are now in terms of rfunction that it has»rds with >> but where we are now in terms of rfunction that it has ins with >> but where we are now in terms of rfunction that it has in ourth the function that it has in our parliamentary democratic system is is to scrutinise and is its job is to scrutinise and revise. we can have a debate revise. now we can have a debate about whether or not we should have the house of lords at all, or whether it should be a democratically elected chamber. or whether it should be a denwherezally elected chamber. or whether it should be a denwhere we! elected chamber. or whether it should be a denwhere we are ected chamber. or whether it should be a denwhere we are today,1amber. but where we are today, it has a job do, which is to job to do, which is to scrutinise legislation and it will rwanda bill will scrutinise the rwanda bill like other bill. but there like any other bill. but there won't measures won't be any special measures for special for it, any special considerations we go considerations we will go through usual way. through in the usual way. >> do you think if labour are in power, you move towards power, would you move towards and support a campaign scrap and support a campaign to scrap the of lords if we are

the house of lords if we are fortunate enough to win next fortunate enough to win the next general election, there's going to number of things to to be a huge number of things to do because we'll be we'll be inheriting, we'll be inheriting a the a disaster, disaster on the economy. be one of them. >> the house of lords, 7.8 million people on nhs waiting lists, services crumbling. >> you're not >> noting that you're not answering question, would you answering my question, would you look of look to scrapping the house of lords, no? lords, yes or no? >> it is something that we're looking at and we're reviewing, but it will not a priority but it will not be a priority because of the disaster be because of the disaster we'll be inheriting. comes to labour's >> when it comes to labour's deterrent, i what you've deterrent, i know what you've been saying in yvette cooper, your been saying your colleague has been saying about, trying smash about, you know, trying to smash the smuggling i mean, the smuggling gangs. i mean, these criminals these are panic criminals seeming highly kind of, you know , taking the law for a ride , to , taking the law for a ride, to be perfectly honest, because we heard at the weekend stories of migrants paying up to £10,000 for more robust sea faring vessels to take them across the channel. even though you and i know that that could be a recipe for disaster. so you must at least appreciate the bill's capacity to perhaps act as a deterrent. >> it doesn't have any chance of

being a deterrent. what deterrent would labour introduce then? well just the bill, then? well just on the bill, there's way that shipping there's no way that shipping perhaps 1% of the number of people that come across the channel on small boats to rwanda is ever going to act as a deterrent. you're dealing with people who are fleeing violence and persecution, have often risked cross risked life and limb to cross continents, than continents, rather than criticising conservatives criticising the conservatives >> what's policy? what's >> what's your policy? what's your deterrent? >> stopping, wasting so >> so by stopping, wasting so much time on rwanda, which is a just a gimmick that is doomed to failure, plough more failure, let's plough much more resource and time and energy into doing some of the things that have worked, like the albania deal. we fully support the that has the albania deal and that has worked deterrent. worked as a deterrent. >> you're not at risk of persecution. it's ludicrous for you asylum. don't you to be seeking asylum. don't do other countries do it. which other countries would like to see an albania would you like to see an albania style with? who's coming style deal with? who's coming here that shouldn't here, here that shouldn't come here, mr well, seeing large here that shouldn't come here, mr well, of seeing large here that shouldn't come here, mr well, of indiansng large here that shouldn't come here, mr well, of indians coming numbers of indians coming across. we've supported across. we've we've supported the government making india the government on making india a safe country. people also coming from countries georgia, from countries like georgia, we've supported government we've supported the government making country. making georgia a safe country. so there many more deals you

so there are many more deals you can do to facilitate removals. but removals from our but of course removals from our country dropped by 30% country have dropped by 30% since 2010. the if you're not removing people who failed to get asylum, then the entire system gets clogged up. and that's of the reasons we that's one of the reasons we have massive backlog. have this massive backlog. >> make of this >> what do you make of this 16,000 people who arrived here illegally given illegally and then were given work? one of the reasons work? well one of the reasons you get that is because the huge backlog , the more you have more people. >> in 2005, the decision was taken to allow people to work after 12 months. nobody should be waiting their asylum be waiting for their asylum claim processed for more claim to be processed for more than months. well, what than six months. well, what would what do is get would what we would do is get the would get the asylum the we would get the asylum backlog would get backlog down and we would get the that it takes to be the time that it takes to be processed. how would you get down six months by huge down to six months by huge investment in immigration enforcement, officers investment in immigration enforcinto nt, officers investment in immigration enforcinto a, officers investment in immigration enforcinto a new officers investment in immigration enforcinto a new returns>fficers investment in immigration enforcinto a new returns unit.'s going into a new returns unit. so you're people out. we so you're getting people out. we would ramping up from would be ramping that up from day of a labour government. day one of a labour government. >> so quickly would you get >> so how quickly would you get 1000 place? do think? 1000 in place? do you think? >> it takes about six >> i think it takes about six months up to that number. months to get up to that number. and then course, little bit

and then of course, a little bit of time for training. but eventually you've got a situation you're getting eventually you've got a situ backlog you're getting eventually you've got a situ backlog down u're getting eventually you've got a situ backlog down through:ing eventually you've got a situ backl and own through :ing eventually you've got a situ backland you through:ing eventually you've got a situ backland you are»ugh:ing eventually you've got a situ backland you are processing removals and you are processing people far more quickly. we would surge 1250 new caseworkers and decision makers, and that gets people out of the system. well under the 12 month time penod well under the 12 month time period with after which you're allowed to work. so the reason that people are coming into the labour market in this way is because of the backlog . you've because of the backlog. you've got to deal with the causes of the issue, not just economic migrants, not asylum seekers, though. >> i mean, yvette cooper seems to anybody coming to think that anybody coming by boat ergo an asylum seeker. boat is ergo an asylum seeker. that's wrong, isn't it? >> no. if you get asylum, you know, apply for asylum. if know, you apply for asylum. if you're granted asylum, you get leave remain have the leave to remain and you have the right work. and i think we right to work. and i think we want that. we want people who are seekers are genuine asylum seekers and genuine refugees contribute to our often end our economy, and often they end up contributing amounts to up contributing huge amounts to our and to our economy. our society and to our economy. but can't be done through the but it can't be done through the back to be based on back door. it has to be based on a robust and rapid processing system. final question on system. quick final question on port it is in port talbot, because it is in your constituency, on one hand,

labour said, know, it's your constituency, on one hand, laloutrage. said, know, it's an outrage. >> down of these >> the closing down of these steelworks going to cost 2800 steelworks is going to cost 2800 jobs, yet it's been done for the very reason that labour is pushing. being done to meet pushing. it's being done to meet this zero target. you this net zero target. so you can't it both ways, can can't have it both ways, can you? can't your cake you? you can't have your cake and eat it, push for net zero and eat it, push for net zero and about job losses. >> the problem is this >> well, the problem is this deal that the government has done steel has got done with tata steel has got nothing to do with decarbonisation, because it's based millions of based on importing millions of tons of steel from india. >> i know, but every time the government's with zero government's come up with a zero target, backing it target, you've been backing it and some. and then some. >> net zero on >> you want net zero on steroids, you? steroids, don't you? >> decarbonisation. >> we support decarbonisation. we that the planet is we feel that the planet is burning, we see that burning, but we also see that decarbonising nation can create jobs. can't have deal, jobs. but you can't have a deal, which on importing which is based on importing millions steel millions of tonnes of steel from india, where steelmaking is 30 to more carbon intensive to 40% more carbon intensive than in the united kingdom. the deal that the tata steel has done with the government is the wrong deal. it's a bad deal. they should the compelling they should back the compelling multi—union back multi—union deal and back labour's £3 billion clean steel fund, which would work in partnership with our steel

makers to get us to a bridge to a future rather than a cliff edge. >> although very, very quickly, we find that your green prosperity plan now, labour insiders are saying, don't mention the 28 billion because you're to commit to you're not able to commit to that pledge. >> know where those >> i don't know where those lines have come from. we are committed up to 28 committed to ramping up to 28 billion in the second half of our of our labour first labour terme. course , it takes terme. of course, it takes some time identify right time to identify the right projects and in the right projects and invest in the right way. but and big part of the way. but and a big part of the 28 billion, of course, is the three, the £3 billion clean steel one example of what steel fund, one example of what we terms of driving we will do in terms of driving decarbonisation without deindustrialisation . deindustrialisation. >> thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning. forjoining me this morning. stephen kinnock, don't go anywhere break anywhere because after the break i'm be speaking to i'm going to be speaking to robert the who quit robert jenrick, the man who quit as minister, because as immigration minister, because he government's he thought the government's rwanda far rwanda plan didn't go far enough. go anywhere

on gb news. the people channel, britain's news channel . britain's news channel. welcome back to the camilla tominey show thank you for your company this sunday morning, robert jenrick joins now. he was the joins me now. he was the immigration minister his immigration minister before his resignation over the rwanda immigration minister before his resighe's n over the rwanda immigration minister before his resighe's alsozr the rwanda immigration minister before his resighe's also torye rwanda immigration minister before his resighe's also tory mp anda immigration minister before his resighe's also tory mp foria bill. he's also tory mp for newark. robert lovely to see you this morning. good morning. >> for having i'm >> thanks for having me. i'm interested political journey. on one hand, you sort of came >> on one hand, you sort of came into cabinet because you were rishi ally, now you rishi sunak ally, and now you seem to have done a pivot towards suella braverman in sort seem to have done a pivot torsidingiuella braverman in sort seem to have done a pivot torsiding witha braverman in sort seem to have done a pivot torsiding with the averman in sort seem to have done a pivot torsiding with the right an in sort seem to have done a pivot torsiding with the right of in sort seem to have done a pivot torsiding with the right of the ort of siding with the right of the party. how's that come about ?

party. how's that come about? >> well, always believed >> well, i've always believed very strongly on these issues, particularly on immigration. i think the illegal migration is doing untold damage to our country, and the stakes are extremely high, and we have to take action and legal migration was a promise that we made, not just our manifest, but just in our last manifest, but in manifesto for nigh on in every manifesto for nigh on 30 years. and yet we're living in a country where three quarters of a million people are coming in legally every year, and so on. these two issues and others, i feel extremely strongly and we need to take greater action as a government to protect the country from this great challenge. >> but you're saying that this rwanda bill isn't tough enough . rwanda bill isn't tough enough. i mean, obviously there's been war warnings from the likes of isaac levido and others about the conservatives campaign for the conservatives campaign for the general election being undermined like you. undermined by people like you. you it's unite die. you you know, it's unite or die. you can understand that perspective. i mean, the bill's gone through this out . why this rebellion fizzled out. why was that ? was that? >> well, look, i will continue to make the argument. you're right to say that, um, the

government won the votes in the house of commons, and the amendments that i put forward were ultimately unsuccessful. i chose to vote against the bill because i felt that it's a weak bill that ultimately won't work, and we will have to see now if in august there are still small boats crossing the channel, then it will be shown that my argument was right and the government was wrong . but government was wrong. but i hope, of course, that the prime minister is successful because i want to see the small boats stop. i think this is doing immense damage. think of the hotels, the billions of pounds have wasted. people who have been wasted. the people who are the channel, the are dying in the channel, the people are people smugglers that are feasting appalling people smugglers that are feastiri| appalling people smugglers that are feastiri want appalling people smugglers that are feastiri want to appalling people smugglers that are feastiri want to see alling people smugglers that are feastiri want to see the1g people smugglers that are feastiri want to see the small trade. i want to see the small boats i believe that the boats stop. i believe that the way that is through the way to do that is through the most robust action, and that view is formed. having travelled around the world, having seen that the only countries in the world have fixed this world that have fixed this problem, and greece in problem, australia and greece in recent to take the recent years chose to take the hardest path that's what i was proposing. the prime minister ultimately wanted to do a different way. >> wouldn't listen you.

>> he wouldn't listen to you. i mean, and suella were at the mean, you and suella were at the sharp end things the sharp end of things at the home office. mean , is it poor office. um, i mean, is it poor leadership skills? is it lack leadership skills? is it a lack of understanding of the economic the electoral calamity he faces with the threat from reform? um, what is he, pigheaded ? what's what is he, pigheaded? what's the answer ? the answer? >> i think you have to ask him. i think he genuinely. i think he genuinely believes that the bill that he proposing will work. that he is proposing will work. i a different view and i take a different view and we'll we'll have to see whether i'm just being naive. >> is he naive? what is this ? >> is he naive? what is this? >> is he naive? what is this? >> well, i don't know. it's. i'm not going to comment on the prime minister's motivations. i think understands think he he understands the problem. to me, having seen problem. but to me, having seen it at the absolute sharp end, having visited residents of dover whose homes have been broken into by illegal migrants, having seen the aftermath of riots in knowsley, where there was a hotel that created immense community issues. having been to nonh community issues. having been to north africa and seen the people smugglers and traffickers in places like algeria and tunisia and libya. i think this is an

immense challenge and not one that's just a fleeting issue. it's going to be with us for many decades to come, and i want to insulate the uk from that . to insulate the uk from that. that was why i resigned from government . that's why government. that's why i proposed these amendments. are you to campaign next you going to campaign next for us echr? i us to leave the echr? well, i think that our membership of the echr is unsustainable. i think that will become clearer and clearer to the british public in the months and the years ahead. it was a separate debate from the one we've just had in the house of commons on the bill, because i don't think we actually now have to leave the echr fix small boats echr to fix the small boats crisis. is a debate. crisis. but it is a debate. i think now we do need to engage in as a as a party for conservatives and as a country, andifs conservatives and as a country, and it's one that want to be and it's one that i want to be at the forefront of. >> when you're in the home office. i mean, we've heard a lot this since john reid was lot of this since john reid was in helm, actually, and in the helm, actually, and talking about being basket talking about it being a basket case, and just crazy. case, and it's just crazy. and there's an argument there's even an argument that different to be different departments need to be hived it's just too big hived off. it's just too big and unwieldy. d what's your impression i mean, do the impression of it? i mean, do the people working in home

people working in the home office have on office have a grip on immigration, both legal and illegal? >> i think it's a bad >> well, i think it's a bad captain who blames his his crew. uh, it was department that uh, but it was a department that faced challenges. faced immense challenges. and you years of you saw in recent years some of those issues, this backlog those issues, like this backlog of that grew up the of cases that grew up like the appalling waste taxpayers appalling waste of taxpayers money hotels. i think there money with hotels. i think there is lack operational is a lack of operational expertise billions expertise there because billions of of taxpayers money is of pounds of taxpayers money is being spent and you need really good people to be doing the job, bringing in expertise the bringing in expertise from the private sector, example , and private sector, for example, and more as well for more accountability as well for officials who get things wrong. should home office should we split the home office up, you think? up, do you think? >> think there's a case for >> i think there's a case for doing that and creating a very tough border which tough border department, which is solely focussed on securing our borders, stopping illegal migration. >> varne. but i mean, that's that's really for another day. >> ideological opposition . when >> ideological opposition. when priti patel spoke about this a bit, you know, she's trying to pull on a lever and then the civil service are pulling on the opposite lever. >> i think there's degree of >> i think there's a degree of that. this is a highly that. and this is a highly charged issue. but the web charged issue. but also the web of arrangements , points

of legal arrangements, points that we have allowed to rise up over recent years and decades, whether that's the treaties like the echr, which are now very out of date, they're all created in the immediate aftermath of the second very second world war, a very different where there was different world, where there was just million people on the just a few million people on the move. today, are tens, move. today, there are tens, probably of millions probably hundreds of millions of people move , either people on the move, either fleeing war and fleeing genuine war and persecution in most cases, persecution or in most cases, looking for better economic prospects. so you need prospects. and so you need a fundamentally different settlement, both in internationally and domestically, to solve that problem. and i'm afraid you do need to embrace the toughest policies if you genuinely want to fix this problem, rather than just dealing with the symptoms. >> and yet, we read in yesterday's telegraph that 16,000 asylum seekers who arrived here illegally by boat have been given jobs. >> yes, i think that's i think that's wrong. >> i don't agree that asylum seekers should work. there is a very long standing policy that dates back to the labour government in 2005, to allow for people who've been here for a year to work in certain

occupations where there are supposedly shortages , but it supposedly shortages, but it just creates a pull factor to the uk and almost everyone who comes here is either an economic migrant or a sort of asylum shopper, because they're coming from safe countries like france and come to the uk and choosing to come to the uk because life is because they think life is better here, a softer touch. better here, or a softer touch. and i don't think that's the and so i don't think that's the right approach. there were actually uh, members actually, uh, members of parliament, lords , parliament, the house of lords, mostly on the opposition benches, wanted benches, who wanted to reduce that 12 months just six that 12 months to just six months. we resisted that. months. and we resisted that. what i did as minister was double the fines , triple the double the fines, triple the fines for illegal working and increase the raids by 50% that are going out to see workplaces like, um, car washes , care homes like, um, car washes, care homes and nail bars , etc. typical and nail bars, etc. typical places where illegal migrants can be found working because you've got to make the uk less of a soft touch. reduce the pull factor here so that somebody who is sitting in germany or france or belgium doesn't feel the urge to come here to the uk. and if you talk to those countries like

the french, for example, the two of the factors, they say of the biggest factors, they say drive come to the uk drive people to come to the uk are how easy it is to work in the black market. here and access to public services like the nhs. >> let's have a some clarity, hopefully from you on legal migration. should there be a cap on it and what should it be? well i think the legal migration is many the bigger is in many respects the bigger issue than illegal because the numbers so great and the numbers are so great and the damage it's doing to the country is significant. is very significant. >> by by. so many >> it's felt by by. so many people. >> need to go back to tens >> do we need to go back to tens of thousands, as promised by david those years? david cameron, all those years? >> sure that an >> well, i'm not sure that an arbitrary target is the right approach, although not approach, although i'm not averse you'd have to averse to it. but you'd have to think very carefully about what it is. >> why not? definitely that's >> why not? i definitely that's what and what people watching and listening to this want. >> i to get it down, >> well, i want to get it down, cut the numbers at 200,000 i want. well, i certainly think it should 200,000 lower each should be 200,000 or lower each yeah should be 200,000 or lower each year. or not we get down year. whether or not we get down to tens thousands, i think to tens of thousands, i think you'd carefully you'd have to think carefully about the kind of about that. but the kind of ballpark the public want ballpark that the public want to see is around that level. if you

look at the polling, people want to in the tens of to see it in the tens of thousands and they have no idea quite are coming quite how many people are coming in. poll that in. there's a recent poll that came out. >> the office doesn't seem >> the home office doesn't seem to any idea how many people to have any idea how many people become poor, has very poor data. >> my argument that it's >> but my argument is that it's causing damage to the causing huge damage to the economy that economy because it means that people employers, people are employers, are undercutting british workers wages. investing wages. they're not investing in technology to improve productivity. creating productivity. it's creating a huge for housing, an issue huge issue for housing, an issue that campaigned on for many that i've campaigned on for many years. housing years. and i think the housing crisis as much an crisis today is as much an immigration crisis as it is one about housing. >> and we've a minute >> and we've only got a minute left. a couple of more left. so a couple of more questions you. want to questions for you. you want to see ban on face coverings at see a ban on face coverings at protests? i do if you look protests? why i do if you look at those protests, example , at those protests, for example, about recent months, at those protests, for example, aboutit's recent months, at those protests, for example, aboutit's completely months, at those protests, for example, aboutit's completely wrong s, at those protests, for example, aboutit's completely wrong that think it's completely wrong that people able be on the people are able to be on the streets wearing masks. >> means that it's very hard >> it means that it's very hard for to arrest them, for the police to arrest them, to law breakers to account. to hold law breakers to account. and it makes many people feel very and uneasy on the very nervous and uneasy on the streets. very intimidating. streets. it's very intimidating. so i want to see the law changed and question i've noted and final question i've noted that you've lost some weight.

>> you've had a haircut, but you're positioning yourself against you seem to against rishi sunak. you seem to be gaining particularly be gaining support, particularly among the right of the party. i know having conversations among the right of the party. i knovthe having conversations among the right of the party. i knovthe new1aving conversations among the right of the party. i knovthe new conservatives.ations among the right of the party. i knovthe new conservatives .tions among the right of the party. i knovthe new conservatives . ares with the new conservatives. are you lining yourself up to be a future tory leader ? future tory leader? >> that's not my intention . >> that's not my intention. >> that's not my intention. >> come on. i'm not all politicians are ambitious people. >> well, look, what i am trying to do is to make an argument and part of that is around illegal migration. >> i think that for too too long, few politicians have gone and argued that we need to take the most robust action. and so if i can help the conservative party by making that argument very strongly, then do, very strongly, then i will do, because i think there is a path to victory next general to victory at the next general election. but it goes through to victory at the next general electiothe ut it goes through to victory at the next general electiothe strongest through to victory at the next general electiothe strongest possible taking the strongest possible approach migration. approach on migration. >> yes no question >> final. yes or no question though, would you stand as leader the future? though, would you stand as lea honestly, future? though, would you stand as lea honestly, camilla, i'm not >> honestly, camilla, i'm not giving any thought. giving that any thought. >> not no. >> it's not a no. >> it's not a no. >> i note. >> i note. >> well, look, i'm not ruling it out, that's not intention out, but that's not my intention here. want to do here. what i really want to do is and hopefully win this is make and hopefully win this central argument for the conservative party's future.

>> jenrick, you >> robert jenrick, thank you very for joining >> robert jenrick, thank you very forjoining me this morning. >> you. morning. >> lovely you. morning. >> lovely to u. morning. >> lovely to speak you. well, >> lovely to speak to you. well, listening to all that, i hope was lord alex carlile, he's a crossbench peer, former crossbench peer, a former lib dem carlile, you're dem mp. lord carlile, you're saying that you think the rwanda bill a step bill is and i quote, a step towards totalitarianism? how do you justify that ? you justify that? >> very simply ? um, the supreme >> very simply? um, the supreme court found that rwanda is not is not a safe country at the present time to which people should be sent. so the government is saying, well, we don't agree with that. so we're going to ignore the supreme court. we're going to pass a law that says rwanda is a safe country . that doesn't change the country. that doesn't change the fact that rwanda is not a safe country. so it's an orwellian an approach to this issue . so it approach to this issue. so it looks to me like a step . and i looks to me like a step. and i didn't mean it was the introduction of totalitarianism. a step that is typical of what happensin a step that is typical of what happens in totalitarian states . happens in totalitarian states. and i don't like it. and you know, there is a host of

evidence to support my view, not least the fact that in the house of lords tomorrow there will be a debate on a report by the all party, all party international agreements committee of the house of lords, which on ten separate grounds , has said that separate grounds, has said that the rwanda treaty and therefore this bill are not appropriate. so what are you going to do about it then, lord carlile? >> well, first of all, i will speak against the treaty and the bill tomorrow , relying on the bill tomorrow, relying on the grounds that have been produced in a short report , which i'm in a short report, which i'm sure you'll have seen from the all party international agreement committee. >> and then when the bill comes to the house, i will, i'm sure, with others will be supporting and possibly tabling myself some amendments to change the bill to make it compatible with the uk's reputation and international law requirements. i don't disagree with much of what this comfort with much of what this comfort with that you're an unelected

peer. peen >> this legislation has been voted through the house of commons. it's been proposed by a democratically elected government that wants to stop the boats. we've got a huge amount of polling to suggest that the british public want to stop the boats, and then you have a group of unelected peers yourself included, trying to thwart this legislation . in what thwart this legislation. in what way is that fair ? way is that fair? >> camilla, you're one of our finest political journalists, and you know perfectly well that that when you want to rely on the house of lords doing something sensible, then you're perfectly prepared to do so. the house of lords is not there to thwart the house of commons, but the role of the house of lords is to amend bills that are going through parliament so that they are compatible with the standards of legislation that we produce in this country. this bill is not compatible with any of the standards we use in legislation . it's based on a legislation. it's based on a fiction which i've already described and so it it is a

challenge by the government against the courts . the judges against the courts. the judges were not challenging the government in the supreme court case. it's the other way round. and it shows a complete disrespect by the government for our legal principles. so i think it's perfectly legitimate, though we are not elected and we acknowledge that to attempt to improve this bill as we do in the house of lords, to meet the required standards. >> lord carlile, final point very, very briefly. the thing is, though, that you're not a court, you're a chamber court, are you? you're a chamber of parliament. >> we're a chamber of >> yeah, we're a chamber of parliament, but we are there specifically to improve draft legislation , and that is what we legislation, and that is what we will be trying to do. again, i would say people should read the international agreement committee report to see the ten points, why this is thoroughly bad law. okay. >> all right. lord carlile, thank you very much for your time this morning. thank you. thank you . michael portillo, thank you. michael portillo, former defence secretary and my fellow gb news presenter, will be from 11. michael, lovely

be here from 11. michael, lovely to see i'm glad we've to see you. i'm glad we've colour coordinated morning. colour coordinated this morning. what coming on what have you got coming up on the show . the show. >> hello camilla. we're going to be talking about the houthis. we want to know exactly who they are, what they believe, and by the way, what has been the checkered history of british government attitudes towards them ? we're to be them? uh, we're going to be covering theatre, and covering theatre, ballet and circus . uh, we're talking about circus. uh, we're talking about the revival of independent bookshops, which i think is excellent news. we're going to be pairing cheeses with wines, and i'm going to be talking to the travel explorer on television. simon reeve. so it's going to be one television, one explorer talking to another . explorer talking to another. that's all going to be at 11:00. sounds absolutely fabulous. >> now don't move a muscle for my show either, because later on i'm going to be speaking to the man who's written the book. everyone's talking about an authority all things royal. authority on all things royal. robert will be joining robert hardman will be joining me. i'll be back soon. don't go

anywhere.

right through until 7:00 this evening. gb news the people's. channel. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now, don't forget, later on i'm going to be speaking to the royal author and journalist robert hardman on his new the late new book, details what the late queen thought harry new book, details what the late que�*meghan thought harry new book, details what the late que�*meghan naming harry new book, details what the late que�*meghan naming their harry new book, details what the late que�*meghan naming their daughter and meghan naming their daughter lilibet. but first, barry gardinerjoins lilibet. but first, barry gardiner joins me lilibet. but first, barry gardinerjoins me in the studio. he's the labour mp for brent north. lovely to see you barry.

this morning shiny new this morning your shiny new studio. know i'm colour studio. i know i'm colour coordinated with the set. i'm glad you've appreciated it. it's all very shiny and i'm grateful for you here in the flesh for you to be here in the flesh on a sunday morning. now, you've made this documentary on leaseholders minutes long. leaseholders 40 minutes long. what learnt? what's what have you learnt? what's this about? it this issue all about? explain it to well, i've to us. well, look, i, i've learned that there is a lot of pain and a lot of anger out there in the country. >> 5 million people are in leasehold flats. and for them, there's just a huge imbalance of power between the landlord and their managing agent and the and their managing agent and the and the leaseholder themselves. people buy a leasehold property and they think, oh great, i'm a homeowner, but then all the things that you naturally assume are part of home ownership and deciding, you know, if you want to get a new front door or you need to change the windows or you goodness me, the rain's coming and the roof's leaking and you need to do that. it they find they can't do it. yes and then they find that actually the landlord does. it may be not in

the way that they would have liked and yet they're the one who's for it. and they who's paying for it. and they find that service charges find that the service charges are more than they think they should be. and and there's no way out . they, they find it very way out. they, they find it very difficult. so it was interesting this week, as you know , the this week, as you know, the bill's going through its committee stage in parliament. and we had a lot of evidence from witnesses talking about this . and i find myself in very this. and i find myself in very strange company with james vitale from, from policy exchange, which is a very right wing think tank, you know, and here am i, a labour mp. and i was saying to him, well, look, don't you feel that leasehold is has all the hallmarks of a against the free market. it's, it's a monopolistic situation. it barriers to entry anti—competitive additive. and anti —competitive additive. and he's anti—competitive additive. and he's he's sat there and he said yes. no i entirely agree with you. this is this is not good capitalism. >> no . >> no. >> no. >> but i'm confused about the legislation because when i wrote

previous reports on it, you know, the legislation tabled by michael gove as levelling up secretary was, i thought, supposed to end leaseholds on new builds on newly sold properties . new builds on newly sold properties. i'm not sure what they were planning to do. retrospective really. i understood that they would set up better arbitration. there's often a row, isn't there, between a leaseholder and the managing extending managing agent, over extending the lease, and it seems that the managing agent can just pluck a figure the air, and you figure out of the air, and you can go to an ombudsman, but it's very complicated for ordinary tenants trying to get on with their what happened their lives. so what happened to leasehold is being scrapped? >> well, you you've hit on a very sore point for leaseholders because the, the, the rhetoric was very fine. >> it was we're going to end feudalism. we're going to we're going to introduce commonhold and, and actually it hasn't turned out like that. and you know i was campaign ing 25 years ago for the commonhold and leasehold reform bill in 2002. and that didn't deliver enough here we are again. i said then we'd need to come back to this

and revisit it and get it right. we are coming back to it 22 years later, and we're still not getting it right. and leaseholders are saying, look, michael gove, you promised to do this and now yeah, you're making few tinkering improvements , but few tinkering improvements, but it's not addressing the fundamental, the fundamental injustice that leasehold represents. last last yearjust represents. last last year just before christmas , um, after before christmas, um, after three years of campaigning , one three years of campaigning, one woman found out that in her block of flats at canary riverside road, um, there had been kickbacks from the insurance company to the freeholder who owned the tower block of 11. £6 million, 1.6 million. >> you're saying, million. >> you're saying , then, that the >> you're saying, then, that the suggestion is that the owner of the tower block is sort of charging people for buildings insurance at a premium and then returning some of that money to the insurance company. >> no, the insurance companies returning to the freeholder.

>> the freeholder. so the freeholder giving illegal freeholder is giving an illegal commission . commission. >> see they're taking a >> oh, i see they're taking a cut of they're taking a cut. >> and so what happens is you get blocks of flats get you get blocks of flats which all of which are having all sorts of insurance . i mean, one woman insurance. i mean, one woman wrote to me this week, um, saying, i, i'm in a block of flats our whole town has never had any problem with terrorism. and yet my block of flats, i'm paying and yet my block of flats, i'm paying for terrorism insurance. >> yeah, yeah. >> yeah, yeah. >> is this something that keir starmer is going to act on should he become the next prime minister? have you got a guarantee that you're going to scrap leasehold? >> i have the party has >> yes, i have the party has said that this is going to be a manifesto commitment. and they said we will move to said that we will move to commonhold, which is the way in which all freehold , all, um , which all freehold, all, um, flats that are leasehold at the moment can then gain control of their building and own the common parts together. >> and on housing in general. barry, i know this is a big subject for you, particularly in your constituency . do think your constituency. do you think that labour party should

that the labour party should sort of put put a number on it and say are going to be and say we are going to be building x by because you've building x by y because you've been parliament for a long been in parliament for a long time, familiar with time, you'll be familiar with the that successive the fact that successive governments the governments have failed the pubuc public on this. >> and look, um, all all the talk that that this government gave about a property owning democracy , i'm afraid it hasn't democracy, i'm afraid it hasn't happened. and we need to build more houses because housing is the sort of hyperinflated part of our economy. and we need to spread economic opportunity throughout the country instead of everybody always coming in down to the south—east and london where where house building and house prices have just gone through the roof, what would you like to set a target? >> 500,000, for instance ? higher. >> look, i'd have to i'd have to look at it and but i think you're right. i think what we need to do is need to be need to do is we need to be saying, in terms of our industrial our industrial strategy, our economic saying, look, economic strategy, saying, look, there around the there are places around the country want to see country where we want to see this economic growth. it's not going unless

going to happen unless people can affordable and sensibly. >> can i ask you just a question? it's slightly off this topic, but because it's not topic, but just because it's not your constituency , but it's your constituency, but it's a neighbouring constituency where the school i think the michaelis school is, i think it's under neesom auspices. it's under dawn neesom auspices. >> know the school. i visited >> i know the school. i visited the school, of course, you all have constituents of pupils have also constituents of pupils who have also constituents of pupils wh(i mean, what do you make of >> i mean, what do you make of the repeated attacks by the left on this headteacher for, i mean, she's dubbed katharine birbalsingh the britain's strictest headmistress. she's now with this high court now dealing with this high court case prayer ban. case involving this prayer ban. i she's made huge i mean, she's made huge improvements for the local area, hasn't she, in turning this school around , getting amazing school around, getting amazing results for its cohort . but why results for its cohort. but why are they left so critical of this headteacher? >> look, i, i don't want to get involved in the dispute there. >> what i would say is this i know that some parents came to me, my constituents whose children go to the school, they came to me and they said, look, when we went to the parents evening to prospective parents

evening to prospective parents evening and to decide if we wanted to go to the school, we asked about what, uh, prayer facilities at the school, and we were told there is no specific prayer room, but that children are perfectly at liberty to pray. pray in the playground if they want to do that in a section of the playground . now, section of the playground. now, the children of this family were then stopped from doing that. so i think there has to be consistency . i think if you are, consistency. i think if you are, if you're particular in environment and that when there were some praying going on in the playground that some non—muslim and not as observant muslim pupils were being pressurised and treated aggressively by those who were praying, well, look, i, i don't know what the situation is, but what i do know is that if a headteacher says something to a prospective parent, then the prospective parent, then the prospective parent, then the prospective parent has the right to take that at face value and if they don't, then find it correlates with what actually goes on. there can be conflict.

so it's important. i think people are clear and that people are open about it. um, and that you don't make false promises. >> all right. >> all right. >> thank you very much, barry gardner, for speaking. um, and your documentary, tell people how they can find it on. >> being released >> yes. it'll be being released at of this month, and it at the end of this month, and it will widely available through will be widely available through my website. >> but on twitter through >> but on twitter and through this old organisations. >> all right. thank you very much, barry gardner. >> in just minute, i'm going >> in just a minute, i'm going to be speaking the royal to be speaking to the royal author journalist robert author and journalist robert hardman release of author and journalist robert harnew1 release of author and journalist robert harnew biography release of author and journalist robert harnew biography of release of author and journalist robert harnew biography of the lease of author and journalist robert harnew biography of the king.of his new biography of the king. but first, here's the weather, a brighter outlook with boxt solar solar, sponsors of weather on . solar, sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> good morning. welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast . latest gb news weather forecast. i'm craig snell. we're looking ahead to today. it is turning very stormy . we have storm isha very stormy. we have storm isha moving across the country as we go through the course of the next 24 hours. initially this morning across parts of east anglia, southeast england would get a fairly bright

get off to a fairly dry, bright but start . elsewhere, but chilly start. elsewhere, we're increasing cloud we're seeing increasing cloud and these outbreaks of rain moving in the will be moving in the rain will be heaviest and most persistent across scotland. across parts of scotland. northwest eventually northwest england and eventually into two and for many into wales two and for many western parts, the winds really increasing as the afternoon goes on. technically a very mild day for the time of year, but factor in the wind and rain, it's not going to feel anywhere near as mild as these temperatures suggest into the night time period. the wind and rain stretches right across the uk. some strong winds, some very strong winds, especially northern some very strong winds, espewestern northern some very strong winds, espewestern parts, northern some very strong winds, espewestern parts, could)rthern some very strong winds, espewestern parts, could seeern and western parts, could see gusts 80 miles. gusts reaching 70 to 80 miles. an hour along some coastlines. so enough for some disruption as we start monday morning. does technically start off on a fairly mild note for the time of yean fairly mild note for the time of year, but do allow some extra time for some journeys because there could be, as i said, some disruption. courtesy of storm isha.the disruption. courtesy of storm isha. the winds will start to decrease go on decrease as we go through on monday morning, and really, we'll see a sunny spells we'll see a day of sunny spells and showers . showers and scattered showers. showers most frequent across parts of scotland and northern ireland, but almost any one will see the

odd shower as the day goes on. temperatures generally ranging between high. single figures in the north potentially double figures in the south, looks like things are heating up. >> box spoilers, sponsors of weather on gb news . weather on gb news. >> welcome back. as promised robert hardman joins me now. he's a journalist and the author of this new book. charles the third the inside story. and you'll have read about this all week because it's been making waves. it's been making headunes waves. it's been making headlines not just in his own newspaper, the daily mail, but across fleet street, used across fleet street, as we used to it. now let's start, to call it. now let's start, first all, with the king and first of all, with the king and the prince of wales's health complaints. were you surprised by how candid, particularly the statement on the king was? i know you've. i think there's a piece about your your views on this in the sunday times this morning. but i mean, you know, it that he'd had it was admitting that he'd had this prostate like many this large prostate like many men generation, he's men of his generation, he's going to have procedure going to have this procedure next was a bit more

next week. there was a bit more secrecy princess of secrecy around the princess of wales's the london wales's admission to the london clinic for this stomach surgery . clinic for this stomach surgery. but same time, i mean, do but at the same time, i mean, do we have right to know? should we have a right to know? should we have a right to know? should we we knowing this stuff? >> well, i think we certainly know more than we would have known in the i mean, you known in the past. i mean, you know, you and i been around know, you and i have been around the patch for while to the royal patch for a while to and think, a few years ago and think, just a few years ago you would not seen the you would not have seen the words enlarged prostate in a palace think palace statement. but i think that's piece with the that's sort of a piece with the sort of new tone of this, this reign. know, i think the reign. you know, i think the king takes the view. well, you know, public have a right to know, the public have a right to know, the public have a right to know some they don't know some things. they don't have to know everything. know some things. they don't have i'm to know everything. know some things. they don't have i'm to i do you think that came from the yeah i think i think the king? yeah i think i think he, he definitely he, you know, he he definitely has sense that, um, course, has a sense that, um, of course, pride that things must remain

private and, but again, with the, with the princess, i thought , you know, there was thought, you know, there was a if you, if you like, sort of there was a greater degree of candour here, um, about the situation. have two medical >> and i have two medical bulletins like that the same bulletins like that on the same day. was was pretty remarkable. i think that king >> i think that the king released his statement to take the pressure off the princess of wales. and the question the pressure off the princess of wales. over the question the pressure off the princess of wales. over ti she jestion the pressure off the princess of wales. over tishe was on the pressure off the princess of wales. over tishe was going. marks over what she was going. >> think think we often like >> i think i think we often like to lots into this. i think to read lots into this. i think honestly, think it was just a honestly, i think it was just a case of i think, you know, she was her treatment anyway. was having her treatment anyway. but she was in but i mean, she, she was in hospital at the time. his followed a check—up. it's really more to fact that, you more down to the fact that, you know, you're royal, if you know, when you're royal, if you are going to step out of your dufies are going to step out of your duties for a few days because you sets in motion you have to that sets in motion an cancel ations an awful lot of cancel ations letting people down. they hate letting people down. they hate letting down they letting people down because they know that every engagement that's on their schedule the that's on their schedule for the next weeks, will next few weeks, you know, will have been planned to the nth degree there degree for months. and so there will lot of unhappy people, will be a lot of unhappy people, and you've got to let them know soon before of, you soon before they sort of, you know, putting out the

know, start putting out the bunting, couple of key bunting, a couple of key revelations the book. revelations in the book. >> i mean, you piece together in a forensic manner, a quite forensic manner, actually, day the queen a quite forensic manner, actua i y, day the queen a quite forensic manner, actua i y, (as the queen a quite forensic manner, actuaiy, (as far the queen a quite forensic manner, actua i y, (as far as he queen a quite forensic manner, actua i y, (as far as the queen died, i mean, as far as the information that you've received died, i mean, as far as the inf0|particularly you've received died, i mean, as far as the inf0|particularly that ve received died, i mean, as far as the inf0|particularly that note ceived died, i mean, as far as the inf0|particularly that note that d and particularly that note that you managed to find that has been by edward been written by sir edward young, private secretary. young, her private secretary. um, went peacefully, which um, she went peacefully, which is of comfort, i think, to the nation. i mean, quite nation. i mean, it's quite important. that's quite something to report. >> well, i wanted do it as >> well, i wanted to do it as sensitively as possible. you know, other aspects of know, there are other aspects of that day that i haven't reported on, don't know the full on, and i don't know the full extent and don't think it's extent, and i don't think it's appropriate you that appropriate that, you know, that should out . but i think should come out. but i think that, you know, there will be this it's there lodged for this note. it's there lodged for posterity in the royal archives , posterity in the royal archives, um, giving the very short, very terse note form that, yes , the terse note form that, yes, the established time of her death. but you know that she wouldn't have felt anything, and that no pain . and i think people will pain. and i think people will feel, um , you know, very feel, um, you know, very reassured by that. um and i thought the other thing that i absolutely the hairs on the back

of my neck, when i heard about it was, was that her last red box? you know, she'd she'd had a red box brought to her every single day of her life as queen. she was only ever allowed two days off her birthday in christmas day. other than that red box, every day full of papers stuff to be dealt papers and stuff to be dealt with right at the end, you with and right at the end, you know, opened up her last know, they opened up her last red box that's there in her room after she's died, and there's a letter of wales. letter to the prince of wales. there's letter to sir edward there's a letter to sir edward young, homework young, and there's some homework because doing the last because she was doing the last nominations for the order of merit, which she always took extremely seriously . um, and extremely seriously. um, and there was a short, a long list and a medium and a short list, and a medium and a short list, and she had to go through, look at all the biogs and then sort of tick a few. um, and so those nominations, she did them and the letter to charles, i mean, do we think that that's because she the end was nigh? >> do we think that she always had letter in red box, had that letter in the red box, maybe for recent months, because she she in a hell? she knew she was in a hell? >> i don't know. as i say, i say in book, we probably never

in the book, we probably never know in it. know what was in it. >> and, and, and i totally understand i think understand that. but i think there was certainly a sense of on those last few days, she really wanted get the country really wanted to get the country back its feet. why she back on its feet. that's why she was to be on her feet was so keen to be on her feet and looking the part in that for her, because she, with that final photograph, because, you know, they hadn't know, all summer they hadn't really a government to really been a government to speak and she knew she had to speak of and she knew she had to appoint her central role. absolutely. of absolutely. number one duty of the monarch is to the constitutional monarch is to ensure governance of the constitutional monarch is to ens country. governance of the constitutional monarch is to ens country. and governance of the constitutional monarch is to ens country. and soyernance of the constitutional monarch is to ens country. and so sheance of the constitutional monarch is to ens country. and so she wanted the country. and so she wanted to appoint liz truss, get get that done and obviously that involved that, know, involved before that, you know, accepting the resignation of bofis accepting the resignation of boris very boris johnson. and she was very buoyed having done that. that buoyed up having done that. that was a weight off her mind . was a weight off her mind. >> um, you quote a senior palace source in book saying that source in the book saying that she angrier than ever she was angrier than i've ever seen over issue of seen her over this issue of harry and meghan calling their daughter much daughter lilibet. not so much using cherished nickname, using her cherished nickname, but the idea that the sussexes had said that it was done with her permission buckingham her permission and buckingham palace said that recollections may that . i mean, some may vary on that. i mean, some of headlines queen's of the headlines said queen's fury. was she actually fury. i mean, was she actually furious? you think?

fury. i mean, was she actually furi i us? you think? fury. i mean, was she actually furii was you think? fury. i mean, was she actually furii was toldyu think? fury. i mean, was she actually furii was told sheiink? fury. i mean, was she actually furii was told she was as angry >> i was told she was as angry as this? you know, this this person seen her and as person had ever seen her and as you say, it wasn't it wasn't the name . i think you say, it wasn't it wasn't the name. i think some you say, it wasn't it wasn't the name . i think some people have name. i think some people have got gone down the route of. she was furious the use of was furious about the use of lilibet. who knows what the exact , um, how it was broken and exact, um, how it was broken and broken to her that, you know, we've chosen the name lilibet. it the fact that it was then it was the fact that it was then presented that she'd endorsed it, that it was it had come with her blessing and then it was the bbc. johnny diamond of the bbc, who broke the news that the queen had not been asked. and at which point that's when legal action was kicked off. yes, lawyers letters came from the sussexes thrown at, uh, at anyone who, who , who thought anyone who, who, who thought they might be about to repeat this calumny. um, and the sussexes went to the palace or their team went to the palace to sort of get their, their to prop up the story and there was a rather deafening silence because the palace was not going to endorse a version of events that didn't tally with what the queen

remembered. and that's what you can't do. you can't. you can't. you know, recollections may vary , and if they do, they're not going to budge. >> do you think i mean, in that final year with spare and everything, i mean, goodness me. >> and the netflix things and everything run up to all everything in the run up to all of that, do you think that the late queen was of tearing late queen was sort of tearing her out about harry, that her hair out about harry, that she angry with him? or more she was angry with him? or more a of saddened? a case of saddened? >> think she would been. >> i think she would have been. she harry. i mean, she, she loved harry. i mean, she, you he wrote in his book, you know, he wrote in his book, 'spare' they had of 'spare' that they had a sort of special relationship. well, i'm sure grandchildren would sure all the grandchildren would like have felt that, but she like to have felt that, but she definitely, adored definitely, uh, she, she adored harry. um, she he adored her. >> interview. >> the oprah winfrey interview. no no, but i think, you know, you've got stand back no no, but i think, you know, you'think. got stand back and think. >> well, think of all the things she's had to deal with during her her reign in the her life. and her reign in the scheme things the scheme scheme of things in the scheme of and we always to of things. and we always like to obviously, journalists, we obviously, as journalists, we always on whatever the always fixate on whatever the crisis of the moment is and say, oh they must be, you oh my gosh, they must be, you know, night know, lying awake at night worrying this. but when worrying about this. but when you've been through rashidi,

when through the second when you been through the second world war, knowing that any minute could minute your entire family could be um, your parents be wiped out, um, your parents nearly get killed three times in be wiped out, um, your parents n(week]et killed three times in be wiped out, um, your parents n(week by killed three times in be wiped out, um, your parents n(week by byled three times in be wiped out, um, your parents n(week by by bombse times in be wiped out, um, your parents n(week by by bombs onimes in be wiped out, um, your parents n(week by by bombs on the; in a week by by bombs on the palace. when you've gone through a week by by bombs on the pal(90s,vhen you've gone through a week by by bombs on the pal(90s, when/ou've gone through a week by by bombs on the pal(90s, when you've gone through a week by by bombs on the pal(90s, when you've gonethrough the 90s, when you've gone through the annus horribilis, your castle burning down, existential crisis for line existential crisis for the line of succession, panorama, all these by these things by comparison, by comparison, meghan's truth and netflix netflix series netflix not quite netflix series as well. you know, it's second order. >> and finally, robert, i mean, how would you characterise the first the carolean era ? first year of the carolean era? is he doing okay? i mean, is the monarchy's future assured? we know younger perhaps know that younger people perhaps aren't as enamoured with the institution people our institution as people of our generation . generation. >> well, that's always been the way that's that's sort way you know, that's that's sort of history repeating itself. but yeah, been an yeah, i think it's been an astonishing and a half now. astonishing year and a half now. yeah, a year and a half. um, when you look back to all the, everyone was sort of predicting, oh, well , you know, it'll never oh, well, you know, it'll never be the same . how can you be the same. how can you possibly fill the shoes of the great elizabeth ii? and of course, she's an impossible act to follow. but that sense of continuity stability, and

continuity and stability, and particularly a time particularly at a time of political instability, i think monarchy's been. absolutely. you know, done what it's there for. and i think he's he's come right through it. he's a happy king. that's, that's crucial. he's very much , um, he's got a grip. very much, um, he's got a grip. i just thought the way right at the start, he hit the the start, you know, he hit the ground we had that ground running. we had that broadcast right away and. yeah, it's. think they're happy. it's. i think they're happy. >> robert hardman , thank you >> robert hardman, thank you very much. you can get his book from good bookstores. there very much. you can get his book frorare. good bookstores. there very much. you can get his book frorare. i'mod bookstores. there very much. you can get his book frorare. i'm flashingtores. there very much. you can get his book frorare. i'm flashingtorup there very much. you can get his book frorare. i'm flashingtorup again we are. i'm flashing it up again now. ever. i'll be back next now. as ever. i'll be back next week at 930. michael portillo , week at 930. michael portillo, of course, is up next, so stay tuned for that. and if any of you have missed the show today, you have missed the show today, you up the highlights you can catch up the highlights at on gb news lovely at 6 pm. here on gb news lovely to see you. have a great

sunday >> good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo as theresa may once ran through fields of wheat , let us skip fields of wheat, let us skip through pastures of politics, world affairs, arts and culture. another week , another grim another week, another grim forecast for the conservative party. the most comprehensive opinion poll yet taken predicts a 1997 style wipe—out for rishi sunak party, with portillo moments aplenty, disastrous as it looks, there are those who say the poll possibly

understates the extent of the