was known to azt and woman who was known to azt and her two children were attacked. forensic tests have shown a concentrated corrosive substance was used . either liquid sodium was used. either liquid sodium hydroxide or carbonate . the hydroxide or carbonate. the houthis have been urged to stop their reckless attacks on shipping in the red sea following the latest uk us airstrike in yemen, lord cameron says the rebel group, which is backed by iran, has been given repeated warnings to end its campaign, which he says threatens the freedom of navigation and puts innocent lives at risk. 36 sites across 13 locations in yemen were targeted by coalition forces . a targeted by coalition forces. a 17 year old boy has become the fourth person to be charged with the murders of two teenagers in bristol . 15 year old mason rist bristol. 15 year old mason rist and 16 year old max dixon was stabbed in the knowle west area last weekend. the 44 year old man and two youths, aged 15 and

16, have already been charged with their murders . a man has with their murders. a man has been arrested on suspicion of dangerous dog offences following the death of a woman in essex. 688 year old esther martin was reportedly visiting her 11 year old grandson when she was attacked in jaywick. the two dogs, thought to be xl bully , dogs, thought to be xl bully, were destroyed. experts are yet to confirm their breed. 39 year old man remains in custody. former wales and british and irish lions fly half barry john has died aged 79. he played in five lines tests and was nicknamed the king after inspiring their 1971 victory over the all blacks . his family over the all blacks. his family says he'll be remembered as a loving grandad to his 11 grandchildren. and the king has been seen in public for the first time since leaving hospital . he was spotted smiling hospital. he was spotted smiling and waving at a crowd gathered at saint mary magdalene church

in sandringham. king charles was discharged from hospital last monday after being treated for an enlarged prostate . well, for an enlarged prostate. well, for the latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. common shirts. now it's time for free speech nation . time for free speech nation. >> a spy unit at the premier league compiles a dossier on a fan. the crown prosecution service has secret meetings with stonewall . and rolling your eyes stonewall. and rolling your eyes is now a microaggression. this is now a microaggression. this is free speech. nation . is free speech. nation. >> welcome to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. >> this is the show where we take a look at culture, current affairs and politics. and of course, we'll have the latest from those lovable culture warriors, they don't warriors, as long as they don't get cancelled before 9:00. so get us cancelled before 9:00. so coming up the show tonight,

coming up on the show tonight, trans and trans gender teacher and journalist debbie hayton is going be here to discuss her going to be here to discuss her new book, transsexual apostate my new book, transsexual apostate my journey back to reality. i'm going to be joined by writer helen joyce to discuss a football who has been banned football fan who has been banned from attending matches until 2026 due to social media posts criticising gender ideology and we're going to hear about a far right activist found guilty of inciting racial hatred because he ran an online library of downloadable anti—immigration stickers. and, of course, myself and my fantastic panel will be answering questions from our lovely studio audience . and my lovely studio audience. and my guests this evening are comedians cressida wetton and paul cox . welcome both. thank you. >> how are you.7 oh, you. >> how are you? oh, good. thank you. >> you're grinning like a cheshire cat. >> i know, ijust cheshire cat. >> i know, i just love being >> i know, ijust love being here. do you? yeah. yeah. it's just like a social club for me. >> the feeling is very much mutual. how are you? >> i'm very well. i like your shirt, do you? yeah. shirt, andrew. do you? yeah. >> we've both gone with >> well, we've both gone with the sort of the. what do you call this? burgundy? the sort of the. what do you

cal|maroon.jrgundy? the sort of the. what do you calimaroon. maroon? yeah, i think so. 50. >> so. >> okay. and we have this lovely studio. warner, there any. studio. warner, are there any. just oil activists the just stop oil activists in the audience? you throw audience? because if you throw orange the maroon, it's orange at this, the maroon, it's going to clash. not going going to clash. it's not going to please refrain for to work. so please refrain for the sake of fashion, let's get some questions from the audience though. question comes some questions from the audience thougpeter. question comes some questions from the audience thougpeter. where'sestion comes some questions from the audience thougpeter. where's peter?comes some questions from the audience thougpeter. where's peter? hi,ies from peter. where's peter? hi, peter. good evening. >> with iran >> okay, so is war with iran inevitable? if so, should inevitable? and if so, should we? be involved? we? will we be involved? >> okay, so a nice light start to the show. um, i mean, what do you think? >> we should steer clear >> i think we should steer clear of it. >> e- e— of it. >> well. very interesting. >> okay, well. very interesting. might be bit for that might be a bit late for that because of course, the us launched friday launched airstrikes on friday night. targeting, night. uh, they're targeting, uh, militia uh, iranian backed militia groups in iraq and syria. cressida i want to know what that hand was. >> then peter. convenient that our two battleships are both unserviceable so they can't be going there you can't going there right? you can't afford war. afford to get in a war. we haven't got enough people in the forces. haven't got enough forces. we haven't got enough ships haven't got any >> yeah, we haven't got any planes on the battleships. >> we haven't got any planes on the right. the battleships. right. well, i mean, small mean, technically small technicality on this. >> do you make of all

this? >> i mean, at the point where where things are being thrown and things are exploding. yes at what point are at war? what point are we at war? and when say suppose i'm when i say we, i suppose i'm roping in with the americans, roping us in with the americans, though, aren't aren't i? though, aren't we? aren't i? >> yes, but we are. >> yes, yes, but we are. >> we are close allies, aren't we? so it feels, it does we? so it feels, uh, it does feel inevitable. >> yeah , but what can we >> well, yeah, but what can we do about this, i mean, >> well, yeah, but what can we do aithere his, i mean, >> well, yeah, but what can we do aithere an i mean, >> well, yeah, but what can we do aithere an obligation ean, >> well, yeah, but what can we do aithere an obligation to 1, isn't there an obligation to deal with houthi rebels ? is deal with the houthi rebels? is that something? yeah, that not something? yeah, absolutely. >> before i get that, that we >> before i get to that, that we really to improve prior really need to improve our prior pre—war keep pre—war banter because we keep saying we haven't saying things like, we haven't got any ships there aren't there aren't any soldiers, we've got no need to learn no aircraft. we need to learn from like russia and just from places like russia and just lie. and, you know, we've got millions lie. and, you know, we've got millioto but no, they are going to win. but no, they are big marches in red square with like one tank? like what, one tank? >> they say, look how good >> and they say, look how good our tanks. our big tanks. >> that's what need to start >> that's what we need to start doing. leicester square after the yeah. i think the show. yeah. um, no, i think there's of brinkmanship there's a lot of brinkmanship going don't think going on. yeah, i don't think either team either team there's not game either. countries not a game either. countries are, really that keen on are, uh, are really that keen on going war. yeah, what going to war. yeah, but what you've you've got the you've got now is you've got the world's superpower just

you've got now is you've got the world' goingrpower just you've got now is you've got the world' going to )wer just you've got now is you've got the world'going to letr just you've got now is you've got the world'going to let bad just aren't going to let bad behaviour go unpunished. yeah. versus super versus the world's super antagonists who can't wait to poke at the us . poke at the us. >> yeah, it's scary stuff . um, >> yeah, it's scary stuff. um, but, you know, on the other hand, you know, you have to deal with problems that arise in the world. the houthi rebels are. well, let's put it this way . well, let's put it this way. they're not the nicest bunch. >> didn't >> sorry. and i didn't answer that question. absolutely that question. you absolutely have you have to have to manage. you have to absolutely that. and absolutely manage that. and i know i said it sounds really preposterous say, but you preposterous to say, but you can't let bad behaviour go unpunished if you are the world's you're world's superpower, you're effectively policing world, effectively policing the world, because , someone because if you don't, someone else will. yeah, that's how it works so they do, unless works. so unless they do, unless they stop the houthis, if a rebel group like the houthis can come and just fire rockets at come in and just fire rockets at you go, don't worry you and you go, don't worry about it. >> yeah, commercial ships nonetheless. exactly. >> part a war and >> who aren't part of a war and who are delivering my stuff from amazon. >> yeah, well, actually, that's the important thing all the most important thing in all of i believe so. of this, but i believe so. i mean, quickly, mean, that mean, very quickly, i mean, that is really important point, mean, very quickly, i mean, that is iit?.ly important point, mean, very quickly, i mean, that is ill? i'venportant point, mean, very quickly, i mean, that is ill? i've seen ant point, mean, very quickly, i mean, that is ill? i've seen eii'ilollii'il, mean, very quickly, i mean, that is ill? i've seen anlot of:, isn't it? i've seen a lot of weird support and cheering for the houthi from

the houthi rebels from from elements left. and you elements of the left. and you think guys, they won't think these guys, they won't allow to work, they won't allow women to work, they won't allow women to work, they won't allow women to work, they won't allow women travel. they allow women to travel. they torture kill gay people. torture and kill gay people. they that is they have a slogan that is cursed. jews. these guys cursed. the jews. these guys aren't your friends. >> absolutely not. and i just think those people haven't. they don't anything. well, maybe think those people haven't. they don'tdon't anything. well, maybe think those people haven't. they don'tdon't know. ing. well, maybe think those people haven't. they don'tdon't know. and well, maybe think those people haven't. they don'tdon't know. and wthinklaybe think those people haven't. they don'tdon't know. and wthink iflbe they don't know. and i think if they don't know. and i think if they they'd feel they did, they'd feel differently. um, yeah. i think going short, sharp the going short, sharp at the beginning teeth. you beginning bear your teeth. you might never have to use them. you that kind of. i don't you know, that kind of. i don't know it's too late for them. know if it's too late for them. >> we shall see. next >> well, we shall see. next question. we've got, uh, question. now we've got, uh, abdi. >> abdi. hello. hi. hi >> hi, abdi. hello. hi. hi >> hi, abdi. hello. hi. hi >> will o'neill good >> will michelle o'neill be good for ireland? for northern ireland? >> this an interesting >> yeah. this is an interesting one have sinn uh, with one to have sinn fein, uh, with the minister of northern the first minister of northern ireland. a historical first. >> it really is . i mean, can you >> it really is. i mean, can you imagine 25 years ago, the idea that sinn fein were leading the northern irish parliament? >> i couldn't imagine it. and nor would i want it personally. no there we go. >> however, what we found is a situation of two years of absolutely no parliament

whatsoever, which is no good for anybody and whoever's in charge we need to bring, uh , democracy we need to bring, uh, democracy back together. and i think some leadership is better than no leadership. think as long as leadership. i think as long as they the rhetoric tight they keep the rhetoric tight dialled down, they will be okay. >> well, i mean, michelle o'neill has been a bit mealy mouthed to ira mouthed when it comes to ira atrocities in the background, to the ira and all that. the ira and all of that. why not? outright condemnation not? an outright condemnation now would be the good time for that, now would be the good time for tha i now would be the good time for thai guess because the sinn fein >> i guess because the sinn fein are the people that >> i guess because the sinn fein are to the people that >> i guess because the sinn fein are to be the people that >> i guess because the sinn fein are to be in the people that >> i guess because the sinn fein are to be in the ira.ple that used to be in the ira. >> well, there is that. i mean, the thing is, i think if she said it, it would be a good thing. well, wouldn't it just i mean, but the thing we often forget stormont is that forget about stormont is that the first minister the deputy first minister has the deputy first minister has the as the first the same power as the first minister. so, you know, so, you know, the dup are know, we've got the dup are there well. uh, and, you there as well. uh, and, you know, wouldn't them know, i wouldn't support them ehhen know, i wouldn't support them either. think it is good either. but i think it is good that we have power sharing up and again so we and running again so that we get, know, those those get, um, you know, those those things out that needed things sorted out that needed need to be sorted out in the country, right? need to be sorted out in the country,mean’ terms of >> you mean in terms of hospitals government and all

hospitals and government and all that kind of basic governance? absolutely. right. and they've gone one and she's gone in on day one and she's she's as you said, dialled it down. speaking in down. she's she's speaking in these of appropriate these very sort of appropriate grown quiet of terms. grown up quiet sort of terms. nothing. going in nothing. she's not going in and shooting again. you shooting guns again. there you go. we're now. you know she's go. we're in now. you know she's she's celebrating hard. she's not celebrating too hard. >> course >> you're not of course suggesting any kind of militaristic connections with michelle. a it was militaristic connections with mmetaphor a it was militaristic connections with mmetaphor for a it was militaristic connections with mmetaphor for it a it was militaristic connections with mmetaphor for it was a it was militaristic connections with mmetaphor for it was aa it was metaphor. >> like a cowboy. >> like a cowboy. >> really? >> really? >> exactly. that's it. but of course, in the background, there's people saying, well, not not name, you know, and not in our name, you know, and they be never. um, ho. 110. >> no. >> can we please, please not attempt on. attempt accents on. >> it was fantastic. >> i thought it was fantastic. it was. do you know what my mother watches this. >> going really upset. >> it's good. well, okay. right >> it's good. well, okay. right >> anyway, let's move on to another question now. uh, sorry, mum. you heard that, you mum. if you heard that, you don't sound like that. uh, right. a question luca. luca. >> hello. my question is , um, >> hello. my question is, um, should we hire people that are dismissive diversity? dismissive of diversity? >> question . luca, you >> good question. luca, you probably all saw this , didn't probably all saw this, didn't you? telegraph report, bbc you? this telegraph report, bbc staffers, they've been told not to hire candidates who are

dismissive of diversity and inclusion now, i think inclusion policies. now, i think there's a lot of confusion about this, isn't there? well, this, isn't there? because well, you know, you wouldn't want someone you was someone working for you who was like, well, only going to like, well, i'm only going to work with white people. i'm only going with straight going to work with straight people that's kind going to work with straight peidiot that's kind going to work with straight peidiot who that's kind going to work with straight peidiot who youthat's kind going to work with straight peidiot who you could kind going to work with straight peidiot who you could do kind of idiot who you could do without. that's not what's going on is it? what's on here, is it? it's not what's going on. diversity and inclusion actually inclusion policies actually mean the don't the opposite of that, don't they? mean is you've they? what they mean is you've all got to think the same way. you've all got to the same you've all got to have the same opinions. and that's really bad for any corporation, particularly would the particularly i would suggest the national particularly i would suggest the natwell yeah mean it's >> well yeah i mean that's it's very people with very poor for people with conservative it. conservative ideas isn't it. which of roughly half which is sort of roughly half the so yeah. well the country. so yeah. well slightly yeah. slightly more actually. um yeah. no, absolutely over no, it's i'm absolutely over this obsession . yeah. and i this di obsession. yeah. and i think it's starting to crumble isn't it. people are starting to see it for what it is. it's patronising to the people it's supposed it undermines supposed to help. it undermines their contributions to their their contributions to everything. i like to everything. yeah. i like to think stays unnumbered. think it stays unnumbered. >> be. do you >> yeah, it might be. do you think are you think so, paul? are you optimistic being dismissive optimistic or being dismissive of is what got me the of diversity is what got me the job here. >> andrew, were right,

>> andrew, as you were right, you the people's gammon. you are the people's gammon. yeah, people's gammon. yeah, i am the people's gammon. yes into my role yes i'm growing into my role steadily. sausage by, steadily. sausage roll by, sausage . um, but you hit sausage roll. um, but you hit the nail. you hit the nail on the nail. you hit the nail on the head. people aren't interested in these particular people aren't interested in diversity because they're not interested in diversity of thought or opinion or anything other than, like what you say. whatever the doctrine is, you must have three of these, four of them and eight of them, and you must think this. yeah. and they should have one of those. >> a it's really >> yeah. it's a it's a really bad situation. but i think things moving the right things are moving in the right direction. actually, direction. ever since actually, the, penn state and the harvard. >> yeah. didn't that expose it? i mean, how you answer i mean, how could you not answer those questions? i mean, how could you not answer tho yeah.estions? i mean, how could you not answer tho yeah. unbelievable. if >> yeah. unbelievable. if someone okay to call someone says, is it okay to call for genocide of jews, your for the genocide of jews, your answer no. answer is no. >> very straightforward. >> very straightforward. >> would have thought. >> i would have thought. anyway, let's a question from let's move on to a question from catherine. hi, catherine. >> hello. >> hello. >> um, rolling your eyes >> um, so is rolling your eyes a microaggression ? yes. microaggression? uh, yes. >> i saw do it earlier, >> and i saw you do it earlier, and i'm absolutely livid. were you flirting ? i got it all you flirting? i got it all wrong. i need to work on the

flirting. catherine. you can flirting. catherine. uh, you can start by not flirting with gay men. look . this is men. uh, so. well, look. this is a report in the times. apparently civil servants have been told that eye rolling . it been told that eye rolling. it sounds like i'm making it up, eye rolling or looking at their phones can be controlled, construed, sorry, as sexual or racial discrimination, can it? cressida, i'd like to think it's at least a medium sized aggression when i do it. >> yeah , yeah, you're very >> yeah, yeah, you're very theatrical , though, aren't you? theatrical, though, aren't you? >> you did a full head thrust. >> you did a full head thrust. >> yeah , that's very good, paul. >> yeah, that's very good, paul. >> yeah, that's very good, paul. >> yeah. if i roll my eyes because i want you to know about it. what is going on with the civil servant? i mean, really, they're saying do micro they're saying don't do micro aggressions, aren't they? they're saying play nicely. i think it's but think it's very. but microaggressions, it's kind of meaningless the way microaggressions, it's kind of mea people; the way microaggressions, it's kind of mea people interpret the way microaggressions, it's kind of mea people interpret otherhe way things. >> it doesn't. you know, i this shouldn't be going on in the civil service because it's a sign that it's not impartial, that it sign that it's not impartial, thatitis sign that it's not impartial, that it is taken a particular ideological line, but it's probably the only place it is going on in, because who cares

for really? for it really? >> who care for it? i mean, >> who does care for it? i mean, you can't identify makes you can't identify which makes it great for them because anybody accused because anybody can be accused because you know, it you i mean, and you know, it could sort of going in the could be sort of going on in the background subconscious. so you could just be accused of it without knowing without even knowing yourself, which without even knowing yourself, whi i 1 without even knowing yourself, whii mean, i would say looking >> i mean, i would say looking at your phones can be quite rude sometimes, especially if you're having can get sometimes, especially if you're heout] can get sometimes, especially if you're heout now, can get sometimes, especially if you're heout now, but can get sometimes, especially if you're heout now, but you can get sometimes, especially if you're heout now, but you known get sometimes, especially if you're heout now, but you know what it out now, but you know what i mean. the middle mean. like in the middle of a meeting or something, that's actually just etiquette, though, i microaggression. >> microaggression microaggression. >> you've|icroaggression microaggression. >> you've you'vejression microaggression. >> you've you've pre—planned like you've you've pre—planned it. like premeditated microaggression. >> just sounds it just sounds >> it just sounds it just sounds made up. it makes me think for some reason, always think some reason, i always think of micro pigs. >> those really small pigs. >> they're much cuter than micro to about my children. >> they're much cuter than micro to um,ibout my children. >> they're much cuter than micro to um, paul my children. >> they're much cuter than micro to um, paul cox, :hildren. >> they're much cuter than micro to um, paul cox, you ren. >> they're much cuter than micro to um, paul cox, you said it. >> um, paul cox, you said it. >> um, paul cox, you said it. >> didn't say it. sorry. if >> i didn't say it. sorry. if paups >> i didn't say it. sorry. if paul's children are watching. i apologise for that little comment . anyway, baby cameron's comment. anyway, baby cameron's okay. i'm going to put a stop to this. uh, but next on free speech nation, the. i've got transgender teacher and journalist debbie hayton. please do not go anywhere. yeah .

it's just going to add on top of it. it's not going to be instead, well, i'm being hopeful that the tories won't be quite as bad on mark dolan tonight in the big story as a tory mp steps down because of death threats over his israel stance, has suella braverman been proved over his israel stance, has suellthataverman been proved over his israel stance, has suellthat multiculturalism ived over his israel stance, has suellthat multiculturalism has right that multiculturalism has failed ? failed? >> it might take a ten. a convicted criminal and illegal immigrant suspected of a chemical attack still on the chemical attack is still on the run. if you it, run. proof if you needed it, that asylum system is that britain's asylum system is utterly broken. plus, annunciate theresa mogg and widdecombe and tomorrow's papers . we're live at tomorrow's papers. we're live at nine. welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. >> debbie hayton was a married man with three children before undergoing gender reassignment surgery in 2016. initially a trans activist, debbie began to question the gender identity orthodoxy and has therefore been targeted for criticism by the trans community and now debbie's

written a memoir , there it is on written a memoir, there it is on the screen transsexual apostate my journey back to reality, and i'm delighted to say that debbie hayton joins me now. welcome to the show. and uh, congratulations on the book. a fantastic review in the telegraph the other day. it's all going very well, isn't it? um the book is called transsexual apostate. why not transgender apostate? that's the word that most people use , isn't it? >> i think it is. but transsexual links with sex, and we know what sex is. sex is real. sex is meaningful. i really don't know what gender means. >> well, i think from what i've from my understanding, many people say that they have an innate gendered identity . helen innate gendered identity. helen joyce says compares it to like a sex soul, and that there are people that is just people who say that that is just misaligned their body. do people who say that that is just mis.thinkd their body. do people who say that that is just mis.think they're:heir body. do people who say that that is just mis.think they're just body. do people who say that that is just mis.think they're just wrongdo you think they're just wrong about that? you think they're just wrong aboit that? you think they're just wrong aboi think? you think they're just wrong aboi think that is i think >> i think that is i think i think the idea of gender identity is wrong. and i explained that the book. i go explained that in the book. i go through what gender identity is, where it from. was where it came from. it was just this had. and this idea that somebody had. and i point out that i can be transsexual. i can go through

gender reassignment surgery, and i without i can explain all that without a gender identity. and if i don't need identity, nobody need a gender identity, nobody needs one. >> people talk >> because a lot of people talk about think there's about trans, and i think there's about trans, and i think there's a lot of confusion about what exactly that mean. and exactly does that mean. and a lot people, i think, are lot of people, i think, are thinking terms thinking in terms of transsexual, in someone who transsexual, as in someone who has to go through this procedure for reason in order to for whatever reason in order to be comfortable life. be comfortable in life. and a lot people have sympathy with lot of people have sympathy with with people. but with those kinds of people. but now, because of self—identification, the meanings become blurred. well, yes, idea that a yes, we had this idea that a transsexual who transsexual was somebody who went meaningful went through a meaningful transition, that that transition, and that meant that they were routinely perceived to be of the opposite sex. be a member of the opposite sex. >> looked a member of >> they looked like a member of the were often the opposite sex, and were often taken of the taken for a member of the opposite but then this idea opposite sex. but then this idea of id came along, which of self id came along, which said any man can said that any man can self—declare himself to be a woman, and that's fine and the one of the reasons i got into woman, and that's fine and the one activismzasons i got into woman, and that's fine and the one activism was1s i got into woman, and that's fine and the one activism was partlyt into woman, and that's fine and the one activism was partly the o the activism was partly the impact has on women's rights, impact it has on women's rights, which can see and the impact which we can see and the impact it's which it's having on children, which is but also what the is desperate, but also what the impact it has on transsexuals . yeah. >> well, can you talk to us a little bit about that? because

i've heard you say before that you think a lot of this activism has been really bad for trans people? >> well, it has. we were in a situation about 7 or 8 years ago when trans sexuals could transition. they could go to take go through take hormone therapy, go through surgery be accepted in surgery and then be accepted in the way that members of the the same way that members of the opposite sex accepted . but opposite sex are accepted. but that's major, that that's something major, is that that's something major, is that that's is that to ask that's massive. is that to ask people to do that? but people did . yes. and along come did. yes. and then along come these campaigners saying, oh, well, just this well, we should just open this up to everybody. anybody can self to be a member of self declare to be a member of the opposite and that's the opposite sex. and that's fine. and then the pushback which in recent, in which we have seen in recent, in recent years and recent months was, was it was so obvious this was, was it was so obvious this was going to happen. i could see it happening in 2016. and i wrote about it in the book. >> so you identify as trans, but you will admit that you are biologically male. >> well, yeah. and i have that t shirt, trans women and men get over it, you know, which which caused a bit fuss few years. >> i'm sure it did. yeah, absolutely. it's in your book. of course. you talk about the

transitional process. this is a very you're opening up a great deal very you're opening up a great deal. you're revealing an deal. you're you're revealing an awful isn't quite awful lot. isn't it quite difficult to write something like personal. like that. so personal. >> it was. and my editor said he couldn't read it without crossing bit. crossing his legs that bit. >> okay, okay. >> okay, okay. >> yes, was, but and it's >> so yes, it was, but and it's things that when i was growing up was things i've said up i there was things i've said about my childhood in the book which i thought never, which i thought i would never, ever to admit to ever be able to admit to anybody. but if don't anybody. yeah, but if you don't say these then things say these things, then things are just lost. think it's are just lost. and i think it's important to actually explain what to go through what it feels like to go through this, because your is very this, because your story is very unique insofar you say, unique insofar as, as you say, you're speaking about you're speaking openly about something people something that very few people do. >> and one of the things that you is you write about is a autogynephilia . uh, do you want autogynephilia. uh, do you want to explain what that is and how that relates to you? >> well, autogynephilia is defined as, uh, being being sexually and romantically attracted to your own body. men can be attracted to all sorts of things . i can be attracted to all sorts of things. i know men can be attracted to women's bodies. they can be attracted men's bodies. they can be attracted to inanimate of us inanimate objects. some of us

are to our own bodies, are attracted to our own bodies, but because we're heterosexual, all to female all we're attracted to female traits. so your sexual and romantically attracted to a lamentably male body and that's the circle that can't be squared i >>i >> i mean, that's very interesting because we don't hear about this very much . uh, hear about this very much. uh, how how common do you think this is among , uh, biological males is among, uh, biological males who identify as females ? who identify as females? >> uh, well , how how who identify as females? >> uh, well, how how common are these feelings ? there was a these feelings? there was a survey done by ken zucker and a swedish survey a few years ago which suggested that around 2 to 3% of men had had at least one cross—dressing fantasy. so, you know, this is this isn't uncommon . yes. agony aunts uncommon. yes. uh, agony aunts will tell. will will will say that is a common theme that this is a common theme among male to female transsexuals. it's . been said transsexuals. it's. been said probably most. yes, probably most. otherwise, you've got to say, why do people do this? why do people go through all this, uh, all this , all this surgery, uh, all this, all this surgery, this hormone? turn the lives upside down? yes. and the

explanation, which i'm coming up with, the male sex with, it's down to the male sex drive. with, it's down to the male sex dnve.the with, it's down to the male sex drive. the most powerful force known man. known to man. >> and, course, the male sex >> and, of course, the male sex drive is one of the reasons why so women are concerned so many women are concerned about identifying into their about men identifying into their spaces is. mean, how important spaces is. i mean, how important do think that is for women do you think that is for women to have their own spaces? >> vital. >> i think i think it's vital. i think should be able to think women should be able to share space for share this space is for biological women, and we should respect that. so what toilets biological women, and we should respec yount. so what toilets biological women, and we should respec you use,» what toilets biological women, and we should respec you use, for1at toilets biological women, and we should respec you use, for instance? uh would you use, for instance? uh itend would you use, for instance? uh i tend find out where the i tend to find out where the where the single cubicles where the single use cubicles are. yes. uh, gb is great are. yes. uh, gb news is great for me. >> know we have. we're very >> i know we have. we're very woke here. we have, we have not. >> i know not everybody appreciates those toilets. i'm fully as well. fully aware of that as well. yes. there's coffee yes. uh, but if there's coffee shops town, i know which shops in town, i know which coffee i've got. the coffee shops i've got. the single, uh, single, use single, uh, single, single use toilet. to mean so. toilet. if you so to mean so. it's not difficult. it's not difficult work. but difficult to make this work. but women women be, women you know, women should be, should expect have, uh, have should expect to have, uh, have biological cars and those biological space cars and those not be compromised. not to be not to be compromised. >> yes. because there's been a lot of online since the lot of chat online since the book was announced. uh, about a teachers union safeguarding policy that you were involved

with. draft thing. and this related complaint seems to related the complaint seems to related the complaint seems to relate the idea of biological relate to the idea of biological males toilets . do males using women's toilets. do you have anything to say about that? >> yeah, i think this goes back about my union about seven years when my union was developing some, uh, some guidance, i assisted with guidance, and i assisted with that. and i my case studies in there. yes. uh, and, and uh, so i assisted with things . i wrote i assisted with things. i wrote some things i commented on other things. and then it went off and then it was, it was it was published. but, uh, i'm, i'm just a member of that union, so it's inappro not for me to comment on my own union's publications. >> what about the issue of pronouns? i mean, a lot of feminists are concerned about the idea that we're all meant to announce our pronouns now, but not just feminists. think not just feminists. i think generally an generally it's seen as an odd thing. where you stand on thing. um where do you stand on the pronoun issue? >> pronouns belong to the person using them, and they're a descriptive tool describe descriptive tool to describe somebody. i was somebody. so if i was if i was describing you, i would say he, because people because that's what people understand . when people he understand. when people think he it matches you. but .

it matches with you. so but. prone nouns are there to be used by the person using them, not the person being described. so i'm not somebody who would wear a badge. that my a pronoun badge. that said, my pronouns him, she, pronouns are he, he, him, she, her, whatever pronouns are i, her, whatever my pronouns are 1, me. my pronouns. her, whatever my pronouns are 1, me so my pronouns. her, whatever my pronouns are 1, me so how my pronouns. her, whatever my pronouns are 1, me so how do pronouns. her, whatever my pronouns are 1, me so how do you1ouns. her, whatever my pronouns are 1, me so how do you feels. her, whatever my pronouns are 1, me so how do you feel when >> so how do you feel when people to you as he? people refer to you as he? >> i? people refer to you as he? >> 1? doesn't bother me at all. it's the pronouns people use for me that's fine. human beings, you know, these are pronouns we use and don't use for human beings and don't care for it. know. care too much for it. you know. don't like that? no, but he she it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't bother me at all. but but this compulsion of but this this compulsion of language it language is going on and it takes me now coming from the other side, demanding that i announce that my pronouns are he, well i've never gone he, him. well i've never gone out and demanded that my pronouns her. so i'm not pronouns are she her. so i'm not going this either. going to do this either. >> it's very interesting, and going to do this either. >> ispoken interesting, and going to do this either. >> ispoken on eresting, and going to do this either. >> ispoken on thisting, and going to do this either. >> ispoken on this shownnd going to do this either. >> ispoken on this show quite a i've spoken on this show quite a lot way in which lot about the way in which when you of those appalling you have one of those appalling crimes a trans identified crimes where a trans identified male a or a sexual male commits a rape or a sexual abuse of a child or something, and the media will call this person a woman and say she and

her when they don't need to do that. and it does confuse the issue , i think. am i wrong about issue, i think. am i wrong about that? no, you're not wrong. >> you're absolutely right. yeah, male a rapist is a man. only men have tools to only men have the tools to commit rape. yes. and i think it just confuses the issue. pronouns to pronouns should be there to help, confuse . help, not confuse. >> and of course, most people do use pronouns to use pronouns according to biological how it's used. >> yeah, because we use pronouns according to how we perceive people and we tend to perceive their biological sex. we're actually good as actually we're really good as human in perceiving human beings in perceiving biological human beings in perceiving bioiyes.al human beings in perceiving bioiyes. of course. so in the >> yes. of course. so in the book go right back to book you go right back to childhood really childhood and you're really opening telling us opening up and you're telling us your life story. is there your whole life story. is there any did you first sort of any when did you first sort of have inkling about yourself have this inkling about yourself that you uh. well, that that you were? uh. well, i don't want to say word don't want to say the word different, but think unusual different, but i think unusual is fair firm, isn't different, but i think unusual is fairfirm, isn't it? is a fair firm, isn't it? >> uh, unusual? yes uh, the first first example i give first the first example i give was when i learning to count was when i was learning to count and, and there was a word 80. and i knew i was going to get there because somebody was teaching me to count. you teaching me to count. and you said tights, said that it was like tights,

which was a clothing that girls wore, and didn't. and wore, and i didn't. and i remember it cutting through me at the and it's one of at the time. and it's one of those early memories stuck those early memories that stuck with helpful with me. and it's helpful because it just it just tells me that this, this goes way, way back. this is baked in, you know, these ideas. yeah. >> you use this metaphor of >> and you use this metaphor of keeping beach ball under keeping a beach ball under water, keeps , you know, water, and it keeps, you know, coming to surface. so coming back to the surface. so it's that's in you and it's something that's in you and it's something that's in you and it's that compels it's something that compels you and drives uh, but you and drives you. uh, but you can't repress it forever. i suppose , is the point. suppose, is the point. >> well, i think possibly i could have done, you know, i'd become very good at repressing this, keeping this down and out of but it was it was dawn of view. but it was it was dawn of view. but it was it was dawn of the internet, the, you of the internet, the, uh, you know, this is the problem when you coming the you start coming across on the internet about people internet about other people like me transitioning the me who are transitioning and the feeling they can do feeling that if they can do this, this thing i've always wanted think it's not wanted to do but think it's not for if they can do this, then for me if they can do this, then i to do this too. and that i want to do this too. and that feeling jealousy and envy was feeling of jealousy and envy was what pushed me over the edge. >> when you're talking about >> but when you're talking about the origin these feelings, the origin of these feelings, when regards yourself,

when it regards yourself, i mean, make you very mean, this mustn't make you very popular with trans people popular with with trans people who about they who are talking about how they have identity. is have a gender identity. this is a exists. and they a thing that exists. and they would that you are denying would say that you are denying their existence. i mean, that's their existence. i mean, that's the well, i'm the kind of language well, i'm denying gender identity, think. >> i think it's nonsense, but it's to go out and it's much easier to go out and insist that i'm a woman insist that i'm a i'm a woman who's had the misfortune of being born in a male body. that's that's an easy, easy story sell, to say that i'm story to sell, to say that i'm a man who happens to be sexually attracted own body. so i attracted to my own body. so i changed it to make it make it consistent with what i'm sexually attracted to . that's sexually attracted to. that's harder to sell to the public. so what when it comes to what about when it comes to schools for instance? schools, for instance? >> i mean, you're a teacher, so, you and you're science you know, and you're a science teacher . so presumably teacher. so presumably biology is important. but we is hugely important. um, but we have examples gender have seen examples of gender identity being taught identity ideology being taught to children, not just that it's a theory, but that it's an absolute fact. does that put you as a teacher who doesn't believe in gender identity in any kind of disadvantage? well, i stay , i of disadvantage? well, i stay, i stay, i'm a physics teacher.

>> i'm a science teacher. so my job is to teach electrical circuits, newton's laws. okay. and i and i try to try to stick with that. >> yes, but if you were asked, what would you do if you were asked about gender identity by a school i often think about school kid? i often think about this because i used to be a school teacher, right? >> would say something >> i would say something like, well, look at the well, let's have a look at the policy here, which were to talk about back to about and, and refer back to that. do a job to do. i'm that. i do have a job to do. i'm a teacher working in school under the direction of head teacher. >> okay. when the book >> okay. well, when is the book out? it's quite soon. out? i think it's quite soon. >> isn't book is out on thursday. >> that's very exciting. so people it and people can pre—order it and pre—order from all the usual pre—order now from all the usual places. >> yes. >> yes. >> well, debbie, thank ever >> well, debbie, thank you ever so for writing the book and so much for writing the book and thank ever much for thank you ever so much for coming to show. thank coming on to the show. thank you. yeah and next on free speech nation, we're be speech nation, we're going to be discussing who's discussing a football fan who's been banned from attending matches until due to social matches until 2026 due to social media criticising gender media posts criticising gender ideology. to be ideology. i'm going to be speaking to the writer helen joyce about that, please do joyce about that, so please do not go anywhere

which the country doesn't need doesn't actually want . doesn't actually want. >> welcome back to free speech nafion >> welcome back to free speech nation . and later in the show nation. and later in the show i'm going to be turning agony uncle with the help of my wonderful panel, cressida wetton and paul cox. we're going to help you deal with your unfiltered dilemmas. i know you've all got problems you wouldn't otherwise, you've all got problems you wo please otherwise, you've all got problems you wo please email otherwise, you've all got problems you wo please email us otherwise, you've all got problems you wo please email us atotherwise, so please email us at

gbviews@gbnews.uk . com we're gbviews@gbnews.uk. com we're going to do our best to answer those problems now. newcastle united lindsay smith has united fan lindsay smith has been banned from attending matches until 2026 due to social media posts which criticised transgender ideology. new castle say she has breached the equality and diversity section of its membership rules, which state that the club will protect supporters from discrimination, harassment and victimisation. they say she's also breached its equality policy, which is similarly worded and section 12 of its ground regulations, which prohibit, quote, any conduct , prohibit, quote, any conduct, act or statement that is discriminate free, including by means of sexual or gender orientation. now one of the tweets posted by smith, which to led a premier league investigation, read you realise that trans ideology is based off a nazi right ? that trans ideology is based off a nazi right? so here to discuss this, i am joined by the author and director of advocacy at sex matters, helen joyce. helen, welcome back to the show. always a pleasure to see you. this is

an odd one, isn't it? because it looks very much as though the premier league has a spy unit. what's going on? >> i think it's worse than odd. >> i think it's worse than odd. >> it's actually one of the most sinister things i've seen in the five plus years that i've been following the gross overreaches of transgender ideology. this of transgender ideology. so this woman expresses, you know, in a somewhat casual and careless way, possibly. but free speech isn't about, you know, your most polished thoughts or speaking perfectly. about covering perfectly. it's about covering everything that you say on her own twitter account has never done anything which newcastle admits has never done anything at all in the grounds or to anybody related club or anybody related to the club or anything that . they have no anything like that. they have no actual of anything actual evidence of anything discriminatory. they passed this secret dossier to the police. the police came round and interviewed her under caution and hours later there and said two hours later there had no crime. they had been no crime. so they decided anyway that they would suspend her. so i actually think it's who are discriminating it's they who are discriminating against think they're the against her. i think they're the bigots her. bigots, not her. >> well, it's very sinister because i understand, because from what i understand, they pictures her

they have pictures of her walking her dog. they've tracked her home address. they know her date of birth. i mean, this sounds like stasi, doesn't sounds like the stasi, doesn't it? >> is they've taken powers that they were given to try to stop they were given to try to stop the worst sort of football hooliganism, which does require you to work out who the gang leaders are and whether they're coming and coming to your grounds. and maybe have, barring maybe even to have, barring orders, them out of a orders, keeping them out of a city away grounds and city or away from grounds and somebody, little tin pot somebody, some little tin pot totalitarian has totalitarian somewhere, has thought that that's great tool thought that that's a great tool that can use against that they can use against anyone. they disagree with to intimidate criminal. let's intimidate as criminal. let's say the process is the punishment . say the process is the punishment. so this woman who has done nothing wrong , nothing has done nothing wrong, nothing at all wrong, whether you agree with what she said or not, that's the point. the point that's not the point. the point is, she's perfectly entitled to say are using this say it. here they are using this tool against her. >> course, is the >> and of course, this is the sort of thing lot of sort of thing that a lot of people have saying for people have been saying for a long that some of these long time that some of these laws, for instance, the deplatforming rules on university campuses, were university campuses, which were about fascists, being about fascists, are now being weaponized feminists and weaponized against feminists and that's, lot of that's, of course, what a lot of people saying

people in ireland are saying about speech laws that about the hate speech laws that they will weaponized they will be weaponized eventually this eventually against holding this particular what it particular view. what is it about the views that lindsay smith holds and people like yourself that lead to these yourself hold that lead to these kind of this kind of weaponization ? weaponization? >> i think the point is that the people who disagree with us hold a belief that requires them to force else to play force everybody else to play along. if you think that you're along. if you think that you're a man who's really a woman, that's can that's not something you can pretend your very own. that's not something you can pret need your very own. that's not something you can pret need women ur very own. that's not something you can pret need women to very own. that's not something you can pret need women to pretend]. that's not something you can pret need women to pretend it as you need women to pretend it as well. and you need to force women to let you into spaces where women don't want you. so it by nature , an it is, by its nature, an imposition other people. and imposition on other people. and that to that requires you to try to silence other people. when silence those other people. when they say so. so what? lindsay smith very smith is saying is very inconvenient man who inconvenient for any man who wants to force women to treat him as a woman, and that's why she has silenced. she has to be silenced. >> very interesting >> now it's very interesting that talk about how the club that you talk about how the club are the ones who are really guilty ation. guilty of discriminate ation. i was impression that was under the impression that since the for starter ruling, the that there are two the idea that there are two biological and the belief biological sexes and the belief that are two biological that there are two biological sexes immutable is

sexes that are immutable is protected in law under the equality act. am i wrong about this ? this? >> no, you're not wrong at all. and there have been a bunch of employment tribunal cases and other law legal actions since that have demonstrated again and again the case. again that that is the case. so there's now substantial body there's now a substantial body of that not only can of case law that not only can you believe this, which, by the way, the truth, but you can way, is the truth, but you can also you can manifest also say it. you can manifest it. think the nearest legal it. i think the nearest legal analogy is probably joe cherry msp, was dropped by an msp, mp, who was dropped by an edinburgh the stand edinburgh venue called the stand because she a because the staff said she was a bigot for being a lesbian who believes women believes that lesbians are women who, women who who, like women, not women who like who say they're women like men who say they're women and wouldn't work and they said they wouldn't work there. she got a eminent there. so she got a very eminent cases, legal opinion, and the stand backed down and let her show. i really think show. go ahead. i really think newcastle. has the show. go ahead. i really think newcaend has the show. go ahead. i really think newcaend of has the show. go ahead. i really think newca end of the has the show. go ahead. i really think newcaend of the stick1as the show. go ahead. i really think newca end of the stick here. the show. go ahead. i really think newcaend of the stick here. and; wrong end of the stick here. and i look forward to seeing what happens next. >> do you this might be >> so do you think this might be the that breaks the the straw that breaks the camel's back if like? and so camel's back if you like? and so far a lot people have been far as a lot of people have been seeing and thinking, how seeing this and thinking, how can this really going on? can this really be going on? might the thing that might this be the thing that

finally the tide? no finally turns the tide? no i think it's going to take a lot longer. >> if you look back at previous occasions where the law started to on bigotry because to clamp down on bigotry because let's it, this what let's face it, this is what newcastle it's being newcastle is being. it's being bigoted. for example, bigoted. and, uh, for example, when they brought the race when they brought in the race relations or they brought in relations act or they brought in the sex discrimination act, it took years for took approximately ten years for employers and service providers to they actually to understand that they actually couldn't discriminate against people of race people on the grounds of race or sex. i'm worried it's going people on the grounds of race or se:take| worried it's going people on the grounds of race or se:take us worried it's going people on the grounds of race or se:take us about'ried it's going people on the grounds of race or se:take us about ten it's going people on the grounds of race or se:take us about ten yearsoing people on the grounds of race or se:take us about ten years tog to take us about ten years to get employers to understand employers and service providers, to can't to understand that they can't discriminate grounds of discriminate on the grounds of believing in the reality and immutability of the two sexes. >> now, perhaps, helen, to >> now, perhaps, helen, just to give other there was give the other side, there was one newcastle fan, who one fan, a newcastle fan, who complained about smith specifically and said this is a quotation . if i were trans, quotation. if i were trans, i would feel extremely unsafe had i to share a space space with someone so openly transphobic . someone so openly transphobic. many of her tweets revolve around movement. a trans around the lgb movement. a trans exclusionary and discriminatory movement members of the movement for members of the lesbian, gay bisexual lesbian, gay and bisexual community to deliberately exclude discourage exclude and aim to discourage and the and discriminate against the trans gender community. do trans gender community. what do you make of that kind of

complaint ? complaint? >> i can imagine that some trans people might feel unsafe because they've been told that people who disagree with trans ideology are hateful . it's as if you told are hateful. it's as if you told everybody who believed in christianity, or everyone who believed that the believed in hinduism, that the entire of the world was out entire rest of the world was out to get them. and then introduced them to somebody wasn't from them to somebody who wasn't from their religion. might their religion. they might feel scared animus towards scared. i have no animus towards trans i just don't think trans people. i just don't think that people can change sex. so i blame that of fearful blame that sort of fearful reaction who lie reaction on the people who lie about people's beliefs, about other people's beliefs, like united. like newcastle united. >> and that's a really key point, isn't it? because we've seen this bizarre hostility towards, well , people like towards, um, well, people like yourself also rowling and yourself and also jk rowling and anyone stands up for women's anyone who stands up for women's sex rights . uh, but what sex based rights. uh, but what do we do when this idea of just dismay missing people as transphobic and hateful? simply, simply for holding these beliefs is so prevalent ? aren't is so prevalent? aren't >> well, as i say, i mean racist and sexist beliefs used to be more prevalent than they are now. i mean, we just keep having

to fight back and these bigoted people are really going to have to in line. it will take to step in line. it will take them time. it will take more employment. it employment. tribunal losses. it will take more legal actions like but eventually like jo cherry's, but eventually hr will get hr departments will get the message if you behave like message that if you behave like this, going to lose in this, you're going to lose in court to cost you court and it's going to cost you a of money. but just more a lot of money. but just more generally, remember, most people agree me. most don't agree with me. most people don't realise what the trans movement is they don't realise is demanding. they don't realise that that they that it's demanding that they personally and up their personally lie and give up their rights. once everybody rights. so once everybody realises great majority realises that the great majority of people who know perfectly well is won't well that sex is real won't stand it, really don't stand for it, i really don't think so. >> well, very interesting, helen joyce. it's always a pleasure to have you on the show. thank you very much . hey, next on free very much. hey, next on free speech nation, i'm going to be joined by fraser myers from spiked. we're to be spiked. we're going to be discussing right discussing the far right activist found guilty of inciting hatred because inciting racial hatred because he ran an online library of downloadable anti—immigration stickers . don't go anywhere

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. uh, just to add that we are hoping to hear from newcastle or the premier league regarding our last story . uh, they have been last story. uh, they have been approached for comment. we'll report you next sunday. report back to you next sunday. a right activist called a far right activist called samuel melia has been found guilty inciting racial hatred guilty of inciting racial hatred by running an online library of downloadable anti—immigration stickers . he was found guilty at stickers. he was found guilty at leeds crown court of encouraging racially aggravated criminal damage , and will be sentenced on damage, and will be sentenced on march 1st. melia was the march the 1st. melia was the head of a group responsible for the downloading of stickers, putting local putting them up in the local area, which prosecutors said was intended up racial intended to stir up racial hatred. melia claimed the so—called practice of stickering was prevalent , and it did not was prevalent, and it did not occur to him that it might be criminal. so to here discuss this, the deputy editor of spiked, myers , so ,

spiked, fraser myers, so, fraser. so this guy samuel melia, he had a poster of adolf hitler in his house. he put out stickers, uh, talking about. well, i suppose they were white nationalist stickers, weren't they? yes >> i'm very, you know, quite hateful and grotesque messages on there saying like on there saying things like labour muslim rape gangs, labour loves muslim rape gangs, mass immigration is white genocide, telling people to go home if their fourth fifth generation black. >> so you know, this is this is not a nice person. and he certainly has a very not nice message. >> but isn't this the issue with free speech that even people who we don't very nice are we don't consider very nice are allowed their free speech? >> absolutely. test >> absolutely. that is the test of free speech. you don't of free speech. if you don't defend the freedom the defend the freedom for the thought you hate, then you don't really free speech. really believe in free speech. at you're talking me. at all. you're talking about me. speech speech. and speech not free speech. and actually, our failure actually, it's been our failure to defend a lot of these hard cases. you know, the racists, the bigots, the scumbags that has allowed censorship to spread in the way that it has because i'm sure people watching this show familiar with the show will be familiar with the fact not need to be, fact that you do not need to be, you racist or a far

you know, a racist or a far right activist to have your collar felt by the police these days, you can simply believe that, say, women don't have penises. but i mean, also terms of >> but i mean, also in terms of this case, i mean, i found it very confusing. i wasn't aware that poster adolf that having a poster of adolf hitler illegal, having hitler was illegal, or having a book by what did he have a he had a book by oswald mosley. >> well, that's not illegal. it's not illegal, but it was used to bolster the case that this right individual. this was a far right individual. it very strange case it was a very strange case because the prosecutor said, and i thought an orwellian i thought this is an orwellian thing to say. they said, we're not for your not going after you for your political beliefs. but the case hinged political beliefs hinged on his political beliefs and the things and of course, on the things that was saying. um, not only that he was saying. um, not only was the message that he was was it the message that he was saying, but it was also the fact he was charged with, uh, racially aggravated criminal damage. racially aggravated criminal dam not you know, he had that not only, you know, he had put a few stickers, but that put up a few stickers, but that other people could download his stickers. could stickers. and they could therefore also be committing criminal that saying that >> so isn't that saying that it's criminal damage that it's about criminal damage that might happen in the future based on you you've done? yes >> that you could be encouraging

it by simply printing out it by by simply printing out stickers. now again, that has all horrifying all kinds of horrifying implications. you if you implications. you know, if you go political protest, go to any political protest, people give out stickers you people give out stickers for you to put up way to probably put up on your way home. you know, quite home. you know, that's quite a normal of political normal form of political protest. yes. and he isn't the he to get in he isn't the first to get in trouble the law trouble with the law for stickering . you know, couple stickering. you know, a couple of police in of years ago, police in merseyside, they said they were looking who had looking for feminists who had put women put up stickers saying women don't there's don't have penises. there's a woman the moment in a battle woman at the moment in a battle with fulham and hammersmith council been given what's with fulham and hammersmith counci a been given what's with fulham and hammersmith counci a communitygiven what's with fulham and hammersmith counci a community protection's called a community protection notice. like a kind of notice. it's like a kind of modern of asbo because she modern form of asbo because she put up stickers on her own front door been told, and door and she's been told, and she doesn't want to them. she doesn't want to remove them. so stickers have become the unlikely or new unlikely new grounds or new battle speech. battle ground for free speech. >> what? what does this >> yes. so what? what does this kind ruling i mean, what kind kind of ruling i mean, what kind of does this set? of precedent does this set? isn't quite worrying? isn't this quite worrying? >> i think i think deeply >> i think i think it's deeply worrying. any ruling that says, you not allowed you know, you're not allowed to say anything, no matter say x, y, z anything, no matter how harsh or horrible the message might know, message might be, you know, sends a deeply troubling sends sends a deeply troubling message. know, message. it sends, you know, to the actually the the next cases that actually the net only get wider, if you

net can only get wider, if you know what i mean, if that makes sense. yeah know what i mean, if that makes senyeah. ah know what i mean, if that makes senyeah. well, we've discussed >> yeah. well, we've discussed on show before woman on this show before the woman who to prison for who went to prison for anti—semitic satirical songs, for instance, chabloz, for instance, alison chabloz, i think her name was. yeah and we've discussed we've also discussed the grenfell, mock up which grenfell, uh, the mock up which was in the back garden , was burnt in the back garden, which, you know, as a sick joke. yeah nice. yeah these things aren't nice. these aren't pleasant. these things aren't pleasant. but once we start criminalising it, it's a dark path. >> absolutely. and know, >> absolutely. and you know, if you criminalise speech, if you criminalise nasty speech, in particular, push it particular, you only push it underground. to underground. what you need to defeat ideas defeat defeat these ideas to defeat racism to have arguments racism is to have arguments about them in public. you want to able discredit to be able to discredit these people their ideas . that people and their ideas. that becomes more difficult with censorship, difficult. censorship, not less difficult. and the example of and you gave the example of alison chabloz. she wrote these songs that are denying the holocaust and this was particularly interesting because holocaust and this was pardon'trly interesting because holocaust and this was pardon't haveteresting because holocaust and this was pardon't have a'esting because holocaust and this was pardon't have a law1g because holocaust and this was pardon't have a law againstrse we don't have a law against holocaust denial in this country. she was country. and yet she was prosecuted malicious prosecuted under our malicious communication you know, communication laws. uh you know, you lots places in europe you see lots of places in europe where holocaust denial is banned. have a much bigger banned. they have a much bigger problem denial problem with holocaust denial than because, again, than we do, because, again, it's spread it's set

spread underground. it's not set out open. and so people out in the open. and so people don't hear the rebuttals they speak themselves, but they speak among themselves, but they don't hear the rebuttals. >> very interesting example. i wanted to raise another issue that came up this week in the courts, was uh , the courts, which was the, uh, the laurence fox situation. now, you know happened here. know what's happened here. perhaps of precis. >> yeah. so this is another troubling case where laurence fox been sued fox has successfully been sued for because essentially, for libel because essentially, for libel because essentially, for rhetorical flourish . i for a rhetorical flourish. i mean, again, this is not big or clever. this is not jonathan swift satire, but he swift level satire, but he responded to people calling him racist calling them racist by calling them paedophiles basically paedophiles. yes. um, basically his argument was that, you know, i'm if you're going to call me a racist with no grounds, i'll call you a paedophile. i'm as much as you a much a racist as you are a paedophile. yes. and the judge took the extraordinary that took the extraordinary view that because that because he couldn't prove that they paedophiles, is they were paedophiles, which is not something had set out not something he had set out to do, that committing libel do, that he was committing libel , was defaming them and , that he was defaming them and that there could no defence that there could be no defence for case. for his case. >> so, look, i that very >> so, look, i find that very disturbing. is disturbing. and the reason is that it was perfectly obvious. the point he was trying to make.

he's making the point that you can't just throw around unfounded, serious unfounded, very serious accusations and therefore he was going to replicate the point right back at them. it needn't have been paedophile. he could have been paedophile. he could have said anything. are you sleep with goats or whatever? >> exactly. to even >> you know exactly. and to even ram home that point, he actually used exact same wording used the exact same wording as one used one of his accusers had used against him. you know, she said that was, you know, publicly that he was, you know, publicly and so, you know , and obviously. and so, you know, and obviously. and so, you know, a racist. and he used the exact same thing back at her. so, so it's everyone, apart it's obvious to everyone, apart from judges, from high court judges, apparently. okay. from high court judges, appso ntly. okay. from high court judges, appso ntly. cthe. from high court judges, appso ntly. cthe problem, isn't >> so that's the problem, isn't it? if it is obvious to it? because if it is obvious to everyone how do we this everyone how do we get this ruling? would ruling? because it would suggest that the court judge in that the high court judge in this case does not this particular case does not understand absolutely understand what absolutely everyone understands. understand what absolutely eve not e understands. understand what absolutely eve not possible understands. understand what absolutely eve not possible ,|nderstands. understand what absolutely eve not possible , i derstands. understand what absolutely eve not possible , i think,nds. understand what absolutely eve not possible , i think, to ;. it's not possible, i think, to interpret it in the way the judge is saying it's possible. >> i think is just an >> i think there is just an extreme mindedness. extreme literal mindedness. often come to often when these cases come to court they're removed from court and they're removed from the out, know, out the context out, you know, out of the rough and tumble of twitter the internet, it's twitter and the internet, it's not place. people are not a nice place. people are rude to each other. and then you

read things the in read these things out in the in the courtroom, the cold light the courtroom, in the cold light of they sound a bit of day, they sound a bit different, but it's often something happens. something that happens. there was aspect to was another troubling aspect to the as well. so laurence the case as well. so laurence fox countersued his accusers, um, you've fox countersued his accusers, um, me you've fox countersued his accusers, um, me calling/ou've fox countersued his accusers, um, me calling meve fox countersued his accusers, um, me calling me racist. defamed me by calling me racist. and they said, that's even and they said, that's not even something they could rule on. they say, you're they didn't say, you're you're right so right to call him racist. so it's not defamation. they said, well, judge that. we it well, we can't judge that. we it can't be libellous. so essentially you have green essentially you have a green light to people light potentially to call people racists to defame them as racist, but can't defame racist, but you can't defame them paedophile. i'm not them as a paedophile. i'm not entirely that going entirely sure how that is going to work going forward. >> so if this were to been reversed and they'd called him a paedophile he them paedophile and he called them a racist, then what would the ruling have been then? >> presumably ruling would >> presumably the ruling would have completely other >> presumably the ruling would have around. ompletely other >> presumably the ruling would havearound. butletely other >> presumably the ruling would have around. but then' other >> presumably the ruling would have around. but then again, her >> presumably the ruling would have around. but then again, you way around. but then again, you know, would they have in know, would they have ruled in laurence fox's favour is another question. look, i mean, i'm not >> well, look, i mean, i'm not denying the sincerity the denying the sincerity of the judge involved in the judge or anyone involved in the procedure. it procedure. i just find it baffling that you see what baffling that you can't see what is obviously a satirical statement. >> and this is the problem with the laws. actually, the uk's libel laws. actually, in the us, the first amendment

explicitly defends us, you explicitly defends us, uh, you know, and supreme court rhetoric and supreme court justices point justices have made the point that adds to that actually that adds to national life. the fact that people can make extreme statements everyone knows people can make extreme statnotznts everyone knows people can make extreme statnotznts in everyone knows people can make extreme statnotznts in orderyone knows people can make extreme statnotznts in order to 1e knows people can make extreme statnotznts in order to ram|ows are not true in order to ram home a point just classic home a point that's just classic rhetoric for me. rhetoric that's healthy for me. >> problem we now have >> but the problem we now have is people are going to start using terms racist with using the terms racist with more, already being using the terms racist with more so already being using the terms racist with more so promiscuously being using the terms racist with more so promiscuously it ing using the terms racist with more so promiscuously it doesn't used so promiscuously it doesn't mean anything. >> lost all >> absolutely. it's lost all meaning. everyone is meaning. you know, everyone is now you now called a racist. you know, people for brexit are people who voted for brexit are called a racist. whereas actually, you know, a word actually, you know, it's a word that for the that should be used for the types people like sam melia, types of people like sam melia, who was, you know, calling for black britons deported. black britons to be deported. that's reserved that's who it should be reserved for. it's now lost its currency. >> currency. >> very troubling stuff, fraser, but thanks so much for but thanks ever so much for coming to about it. coming to talk to us about it. thank you. so there is plenty more to come tonight on free speech nation, including news of a series of talks and debates which are designed to promote free speech in universities . and free speech in universities. and we're also going to be talking about details of the crown prosecution service and how it's been having secret meetings with stonewall, mermaids and other

lobbying groups. plus of course, some social sensations and more questions from our audience. don't go anywhere . don't go anywhere. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. >> hello there. good evening . >> hello there. good evening. i'm jonathan vautrey here of your gb news weather forecast provided by the met office. if you remember what weather conditions you had on sunday, you'll probably very similar you'll probably see very similar conditions monday start conditions on monday as we start off new systems are off the new week. systems are very slow moving at the moment. high towards very slow moving at the moment. higisouth, towards very slow moving at the moment. higisouth, but towards very slow moving at the moment. higisouth, but this towards very slow moving at the moment. higisouth, but this weatherards the south, but this weather front become across front has become stalled across areas scotland and will areas of scotland and will provide very persistent rainfall across particularly western districts. highlands , argyll across particularly western dist|bute. highlands , argyll across particularly western dist|bute. as highlands , argyll across particularly western dist|bute. as we hlands , argyll across particularly western dist|bute. as we headis , argyll across particularly western dist|bute. as we head throughout and bute. as we head throughout the warning is in the night, a rain warning is in force flooding and force and some flooding and disruption elsewhere disruption is possible elsewhere . a reasonably night, . a reasonably cloudy night, though some spells though some clearer spells developing central

developing through central areas, at mild for all of areas, at times mild for all of us, though temperatures not dropping lower than 9 or dropping much lower than 9 or 7 c. a start to the new 7 c. a chillier start to the new week for the far north of scotland, though with a touch of frost and as this rain band just pushes ever so slightly northwards into the cold air ahead could see ahead of it, we could see a touch of snow for the likes of caithness, sutherland even to lower for a time, but lower levels for a time, but that be that rain will really be persistent across western areas and to provide a very and it's going to provide a very miserable wet here. miserable and wet day here. again, relatively and again, relatively blustery and cloudy areas. cloudy for most other areas. some patches of drizzle to watch out around coastal out for. mr murk around coastal districts. temperatures are touched compared touched down compared to the weekend to 12 c. weekend around 9 to 12 c. on tuesday. will tuesday. that rain band will eventually push way slightly eventually push its way slightly further moving further southward. so moving into ireland, northern into northern ireland, northern england mountain snow england a bit of mountain snow possible as well. to the possible here as well. to the south, you on to that mild, south, you hold on to that mild, cloudy, theme, cloudy, blustery theme, but to the north we open up the doors to a touch brighter to something a touch brighter with showers, but also with some snow showers, but also colder. those colder colder. and those colder conditions going conditions are slowly going to push way other push their way across other areas of the uk throughout the forthcoming that warm forthcoming week. by that warm feeling from . boxt

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there's plenty more still to come on free speech nation. >> this week we're going to be meeting two organised of a group who promote free speech at universities . and also we're universities. and also we're going learning how the going to be learning how the crown service crown prosecution service consulted mermaids consulted with mermaids and

stonewall adopting a stonewall before adopting a controversial stance on sex by deception prosecutions. plus some more questions from this wonderful studio audience. but first, let's get a news update from ray addison . good evening. from ray addison. good evening. >> your top stories tonight, the police watchdog has launched an investigation following a crash on the m25, which happened after a police pursuit . officers from a police pursuit. officers from hertfordshire constabulary . were hertfordshire constabulary. were following a van at around 4 am, where they were stood down before the collision. the van went to on hit three other vehicles and a was killed. vehicles and a woman was killed. police her family is being police say her family is being supported by trained supported by specially trained officers . now a £20,000 reward officers. now a £20,000 reward is being offered for information that may lead to the arrest of a suspected chemical attacker. new video has been released of abdul azad in a tesco store in north london on wednesday . police say london on wednesday. police say his last known movements show he

left tower hill tube station in the east end just after half past nine that evening. that was after a woman who was known to azad and her two children were attacked . forensic tests have attacked. forensic tests have shown that a concentrate corrosive substance was used either liquid sodium hydroxide or carbonate . the houthis have or carbonate. the houthis have been urged to stop their reckless attacks on shipping in the red sea following the latest uk, us airstrikes in yemen, lord cameron says the rebel group, which is backed by iran, has been given repeated warnings to end its campaign, which he says threatens the freedom of navigation and puts innocent lives at risk . 36 sites across lives at risk. 36 sites across 13 locations in yemen were targeted by coalition forces . targeted by coalition forces. the 17 year old boy has become the fourth person to be charged with the murders of two teenagers in bristol, while 15 year old mason wrist and 16 year old max dixon was stabbed in the knowle west area last weekend. a

44 year old man and two youths, aged 15 and 16, have already been charged with their murders . been charged with their murders. a man has been arrested on suspicion of dangerous dog offences following the death of a woman in essex. offences following the death of a woman in essex . 68 year old a woman in essex. 68 year old esther martin was reportedly visiting her 11 year old grandson when she was attacked in jaywick. the two dogs, thought to be xl bullies , were thought to be xl bullies, were destroyed. experts are yet to confirm their breed, though the 39 year old man remains in custody . former wales and custody. former wales and british and irish lions fly half barry john has died aged 79. he played in five lions tests and was nicknamed the king after inspiring their 1971 victory over the all blacks . his family over the all blacks. his family says he'll be remembered as a loving grandad to his 11 grandchildren and the king has been seen in public for the first time since leaving hospital. he was spotted smiling and waving at a crowd gathered

at saint mary magdalene church in sandringham. king charles was discharged from hospital last monday after being treated for an enlarged prostate . well, for an enlarged prostate. well, for the latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. com slash alerts. now let's get straight back to free speech nation. >> welcome back to free speech nafion >> welcome back to free speech nation . let's get some more nation. let's get some more questions from our wonderful studio audience . our first studio audience. our first question comes from victor . question comes from victor. >> should dead people be able to change gender? >> victor is slightly mad. actually, no . it's the labour mp actually, no. it's the labour mp charlotte nichols has asked if the gender recognition act could be edited to allow transgender people who are deceased to be legally remembered by the gender

they live by. uh, thoughts? cressida >> well, obviously this is sparked because of brianna j's murder . and i sparked because of brianna j's murder. and i think the idea is that because she was under age when she died, she wasn't able to change her gender. but in years to come, clearly that's how her family will remember her as a girl , not how her family will remember her as a girl, not a boy. um, but i don't think that necessarily means that we should make this change, because then we're getting closer to self id and all the problems that that bnngs >> well, of course, i mean, particularly if someone's dead, i mean, what's going happen i mean, what's going to happen if through? if this goes through? >> shakira said the hips >> even shakira said the hips don't lie . and when that and don't lie. and when that and when they look hips, when when they look at the hips, when that is in the ground in that body is in the ground in years to come, they are going to be able to identify the gender of body. of that body. >> not expect you to quote >> i did not expect you to quote shakira, to shakira, shakira, to quote shakira, occasionally, think that's occasionally, and i think that's ultimately problem, isn't it? ii i mean, ean, yes , i mean, yes, it's words. it's >> i mean, yes, it's words. it's it will mean something to the family. i totally understand that. but terms of anatomy that. but in terms of anatomy and biology , things aren't going and biology, things aren't going to okay , well, let's get another

>> okay, well, let's get another question jeremy . do we have question from jeremy. do we have a jeremy here? jeremy. hi. a jeremy here? hi, jeremy. hi. >> sure . pride pillars >> um, sure. pride pillars appear at stations . okay. appear at stations. okay. >> this is an interesting one. this actually went viral this week. you might have seen that network rail installed a pride pillar at london bridge station. and had lots flags and this had lots of flags representing, the representing, well, not just the progress that sort progress pride flag, that sort of monstrosity we've of really ugly monstrosity we've all seen, but also one representing fluidity, representing gender fluidity, demi sexuality, polyamory. uh, and some commentators argue that the pillar breaches the company's because company's regulations because it's political it's essentially a political poster . and we've even it's essentially a political poster. and we've even had some protests from feminist groups. let's have look . yes and it let's have a look. yes and it says you have to have sex. >> when we deny warning material . that will stand side by side in good voices. >> right. >> right. >> beautiful . yes. >> beautiful. yes. >> beautiful. yes. >> no, actually, really good singers. you don't expect that at protests. well they were they

were harmonising and everything. i for goodness it's i mean, for goodness sake, it's very good. it was very good. yeah. very good. i want to yeah. very good. now i want to ask about that question ask you about that question because that don't because that a pillar i don't know got an image of know if you've got an image of the pillar, a close up image of what looks like. the pillar, a close up image of wh.yes. looks like. the pillar, a close up image of wh.yes. i'ves like. the pillar, a close up image of wh.yes. i've seen. the pillar, a close up image of wh.yes. i've seen it. >> yes. i've seen it. >> an absolute eyesore. um, now, the thing about it, there it is. and the problem with all these flags been plastered flags that have been plastered over this is it is deeply over this is that it is deeply political. i lot of political. i think a lot of people that this is just people think that this is just about being nice and just being welcoming. these flags and particularly pride particularly the progress, pride flag, at the top with flag, the one at the top with the rainbow colours and then the chevrons now that chevrons that is now a flag that is a movement is associated with a movement that that gender identity, that says that gender identity, whatever means, should whatever that means, should supersede biological sex in legislation society. that, legislation and society. that, of that women's of course, means that women's single—sex risk. single—sex spaces are at risk. it means that gay people are at risk gay when risk because gay people, when they're young, being they're young, are being put onto puberty blockers and effectively fixed and heterosexual. in other words , heterosexual. in other words, they think being they think they're being pro—gay. they're actually putting up anti—gay flags in the name of gay rights. >> i mean, george orwell couldn't have written it, could

he? unbelievable . all that he? it's unbelievable. all that kind to me, it feels very kind of to me, it feels very oppressive, and oppressive, you know, and not just there's far too just because there's far too many colours. and makes me many colours. and it makes me want be minimalist, want to be a minimalist, but that's my aesthetic taste , that's just my aesthetic taste, you know? i mean, it's. and you know? no, i mean, it's. and why trying to catch a why am i? i'm trying to catch a train to go somewhere. why do i have to hear this political message that point? message at that point? >> they going to put up >> what are they going to put up like guevara and, you like che guevara signs and, you know, flags and, know, communist flags and, you know, communist flags and, you know, anything like know, or anything like that possible. it does possible. yeah. i mean, it does wind me up, but also because people blame me gay people, people blame me and gay people, they your doing. they say this is all your doing. i'm want that stuff i'm like, i want that stuff taken down. it doesn't represent me. well for me. >> are representative of >> you are the representative of all gay people. i like to think so. >> i like to think so. >> i like to think so. >> um, i'm sorry. >> i'm chief gay. >> i'm chief gay. >> chief, is that what you go with? >> yeah, you're chief gammon. i'm chief gay. we should do a double act. gavin gay. i'll double act. gavin and gay. i'll tell you what. >> let's do it. >> yeah, well, up for that. >> yeah, well, up for that. >> if there's >> but, you know, if there's such thing as free speech, such a thing as free speech, which, of course, there isn't any know that sounds any longer. i know that sounds facetious, but quite clearly there you would have a there isn't. you would have a pillar this,

pillar in london bridge this, you on one, you know, millwall on one, chelsea the other. whatever chelsea on the other. whatever it should able to you it is, you should be able to you should. is not about being should. this is not about being kind. this an indoctrination. kind. this is an indoctrination. this is saying if you continually this you continually see this image, you will believe what this image is telling you just telling you. yeah. and you just keep doing and doing it and keep doing it and doing it and doing and it until you doing it and doing it until you and have transitioned and and i have transitioned and chris well that's an chris is a boy. well that's an interesting idea. >> not to broach it >> i'm not going to broach it now, but, um, but so what now, but, um, but yeah. so what do do about this? because do we do about this? because i think big problem here is think the big problem here is that so many people in the pubuc that so many people in the public think that this is progressive. they think that this movement this very regressive movement that things worse for that is making things worse for women, worse for gay people is actually how do we actually the opposite. how do we get that this get the message across that this isn't what think is? isn't what you think it is? >> i'm surprised if they do feel like if they like that. i wonder if they aren't getting up with it aren't getting fed up with it being it's just far, far too much. and to me it comes with this accusation that this kind of accusation that we're because you we're doing this because you don't the right ideas yet. don't have the right ideas yet. you're yes, but you're not progressive. yes, but i modern british i think most modern british people do think they're people do think that they're progressive, don't they? and they offended if they they quite offended if they thought that they're being accused transphobic or accused of being transphobic or homophobic other phobic.

homophobic or any other phobic. well know anyone well i don't know anyone who's homophobic or transphobic. >> you find >> i don't know where you find these they have this these people, but they have this idea that this is really commonplace. or is this commonplace. is it or is this just a spectrum of people's imagination? >> it's not, then this >> well, if it's not, then this whole system crumbles for them because that fear for because they need that fear for it work. because if that fear it to work. because if that fear doesn't exist, there's doesn't exist, then there's no need pillars need for pillars full of different colours to make you think. >> i mean, i have clarify, >> i mean, i have to clarify, i know that people are still attacked for being gay. i know that who are attacked for being gay. i know that unpleasant, who are attacked for being gay. i know that unpleasant, but who are attacked for being gay. i know that unpleasant, but they are a very unpleasant, but they are a tiny, tiny minority. you're always going get some always going to get some psychopaths is psychopaths in society. this is not broad societal problem in not a broad societal problem in the just isn't. the uk. it just isn't. >> no, and why got >> no, and that's why we got terms like microaggression. you literally got go down to literally got to go down to the micro level in order to identify anything. and anything. and it's a supply and demand issue. >> right? >> right? >> exactly. there'll be >> yeah, exactly. there'll be nano before know >> yeah, exactly. there'll be naiyeah before know >> yeah, exactly. there'll be naiyeah nobody before know >> yeah, exactly. there'll be naiyeah nobody willfore know >> yeah, exactly. there'll be naiyeah nobody will know know >> yeah, exactly. there'll be naiyeah nobody will know it. now it. yeah nobody will know it. you they'll like pre you know, they'll be like pre foetal aggression. yeah. >> well foetuses often kick in the i think that's pretty the womb i think that's pretty damn the womb i think that's pretty dar domestic violence. >> domestic violence. >> domestic violence. >> outrageous >> absolutely outrageous stuff. can't the foetuses anyway. can't pull the foetuses anyway. we're going to have question can't pull the foetuses anyway. we'rfrom1g to have question can't pull the foetuses anyway. we'rfrom adrianave question can't pull the foetuses anyway. we'rfrom adrian ./e question can't pull the foetuses anyway. we'rfrom adrian . where'sstion can't pull the foetuses anyway. we'rfrom adrian . where's adrian .

now from adrian. where's adrian. >> hi there. >> hi there. >> back to microaggressions, i'm afraid. oh >> back to microaggressions, i'm afraid. on where the clapham attacks all about microaggression. you know what? >> this. i'm glad you raised this. this this was incredible. so the tory mp caroline nokes, uh, went on newsnight, wasn't it? newsnight to talk it? it was newsnight to talk about the horrific , uh, clapham about the horrific, uh, clapham attacks, the acid attacks and what happened . she started what happened. she started talking about microaggressions instead. can we hear part of this discussion ? because it's this discussion? because it's something this discussion? because it's sonwith1g this discussion? because it's sonwith respect , kirsty, the >> with respect, kirsty, the media journalists are not interested in microaggressions . interested in microaggressions. they want to hear about the most egregious they want to hear about the most egrljious some of us want to >> i think some of us want to hear about microaggressions, um, and reality is, is and the stark reality is, is that every day women will face misogyny and micro aggressions. >> if you're a woman of colour, it worse. and we have to it will be worse. and we have to do better at understanding the cultures that make men think that's okay, it's not okay. and actually you can see a pattern of behaviours that lead to really horrific crimes . really horrific crimes. >> so to be frank, what the hell

is she saying there? i mean, she's basically saying that this guy threw acid at these poor people, all because i know someone had suffered microaggressions at some point and mean, what and it escalated. i mean, what is on? and it escalated. i mean, what is well,)n? and it escalated. i mean, what is well, it's a bit similar, but >> well, it's a bit similar, but but worse when you hear people talking rape culture, talking about rape culture, implying that there's this cultural towards cultural movement towards i don't i don't really even don't even i don't really even know that means. rape know what that means. rape culture the that culture and the idea that there's a cultural movement towards being towards that behaviour being acceptable, just it's acceptable, it's just it's absolute madness. acceptable, it's just it's absso te madness. acceptable, it's just it's absso thisiadness. acceptable, it's just it's absso this reminds a bit of >> so this reminds me a bit of the amis horrific murder the david amis horrific murder of david amis by an islamist extremist. and as soon as that happened, we had people standing up saying, this happened, we had people standing up we saying, this happened, we had people standing up we need saying, this happened, we had people standing up we need to aying, this happened, we had people standing up we need to tightenris happened, we had people standing up we need to tighten up on means we need to tighten up on onune means we need to tighten up on online speech laws. that's online hate speech laws. that's the problem here. nasty tweets. was problem no it was the problem here. nasty tweets. waspsychopathn no it was the problem here. nasty tweets. waspsychopath with no it was the problem here. nasty tweets. waspsychopath with theio it was the problem here. nasty tweets. waspsychopath with the knife /as the psychopath with the knife who had these crazed medieval beliefs , right? yes. who had these crazed medieval bel it's , right? yes. who had these crazed medieval bel it's something;. who had these crazed medieval bel it's something awful and >> it's something awful and anomalous . and they want to tell anomalous. and they want to tell you that it's because of the way it's almost like self—flagellation. all self—flagellation. we all need to behaviour, guys. to look at our behaviour, guys. >> why? no. >> why? no. >> but won't politicians >> but why won't politicians just address the actual issues here talking about or here and stop talking about or stop using? i would say

stop abuse using? i would say exploiting these horrible tragedies to try and clamp down on else's free speech. on everyone else's free speech. that's what's going here. that's what's going on here. absolutely it makes you feel >> yeah. and it makes you feel that comes along that if a politician comes along that if a politician comes along that say something real, that does say something real, we're all going to be absolutely gobsmacked and so impressed by them i, i of feel them because i, i sort of feel like i'm used to hearing this kind tone i'm sick of it. kind of tone and i'm sick of it. yeah, well, for an alternative view, for balance, let's to view, for balance, let's go to paul . paul cox. >> you're big fan of what she >> you're a big fan of what she said, aren't you? >> yeah, am, i mean i wrote it >> yeah, i am, i mean i wrote it for her. yeah. well done, well done. anti—truth done. she's anti—truth along with a lot of politicians now. and it's a diversion and a distraction. it distraction. and the reason it is, is because they were to is, is because if they were to say truth, it would be say the truth, it would be career ending for them . and career ending for them. and if we that at highest level we see that at the highest level of society, as politicians would have us believe, is have us believe, then that is why filters all the way. why it filters down all the way. so i if you spoke to her privately and i have done, um, i haven't and i'm sure she would admit that this has got nothing to do with microaggressions. it's got everything to do with culture, but not a

microaggression an. and she would she would not say those things privately. however when she's put in front of a camera, she's put in front of a camera, she has no choice but to say those things because they can't deal the issue. deal with the issue. >> but does she not have a choice? i mean, that's what i don't understand. >> she does. i believe she's i believe constituents believe her constituents have given right to have that given her the right to have that choice and she's failing them. >> look, she look, i'm >> well, look, she oh, look, i'm for speech. for free speech. >> can on tv and say >> she can go on tv and say whatever, whatever she wants, even absolutely even if it's absolutely nonsensical, even if it's absolutely norwell,:al, even if it's absolutely norwell, i l, even if it's absolutely norwell, i think that's why >> well, i think that's why we've news isn't it? that we've got gb news isn't it? that heanng we've got gb news isn't it? that hearing things hearing those kind of things i feel that more able here feel that we're more able here to. we're discussing it to. well, we're discussing it now, you know. >> well i mean absolutely >> well i mean that's absolutely true, but why can't every news channel true, but why can't every news chan don't understand it. >> i don't understand it. >> i don't understand it. >> yeah, it's very bizarre. okay. let's on to okay. well let's move on to another from francesca. another question from francesca. francesca hi. >> brain >> is elon musk's brain technology going save the technology going to save the human technology going to save the huroh goodness me. you know, >> oh goodness me. you know, i've spoken about i mean, i've spoken about this. i mean, look, musk in look, i like elon musk in certain i like the fact certain ways. i like the fact that he's restored free speech to twitter to a degree. uh, i like the fact that he's having a go advertisers and saying,

go at advertisers and saying, f you don't need your money. you and i don't need your money. all great. um, all of that is great. um, i don't like this brain technology stuff. so elon musk, well, he's got this idea of transhumanism. he's uh, he's got this neuralink, uh, division says he's division varne and he says he's going to successfully implant it into into the brain of into a, into the brain of a human being. and the hope is now, are good now, look, there are good intentions behind because intentions behind this because he could he says the technology could cure neurological cure paralysis and neurological conditions. i think conditions. uh, that i think is great, actually, but he's talking the end game being talking about the end game being what symbiote . what he calls human ai symbiote. ipsis, which he says is species level important. have you seen did you see the last terminator film, cressida? >> obviously. yeah, yeah. so you know, in the last terminator film, how get this half film, how you get this half human who's been this human who's with robotic technology. >> and so she can really kick ass, she can sort of ass, you know, she can sort of fight robots. that's kind fight robots. i get that's kind of the thing is, of cool. but the thing is, i don't want to be half robot. no but elon you to be because but elon wants you to be because he's super, super clever and he's super, super clever and he's probably at lonely, he he's probably at lonely, and he probably super probably wants more super clever people him. people around him. >> so he's thinking, right, i'll just build myself. just build them myself. >> oh maybe.

>> oh well, maybe. >> oh well, maybe. >> i if you have this >> i mean, if you have this neuralink chip, right. so if neuralink chip, right. so and if you transhuman ism you have this transhuman ism idea, suppose mean idea, i suppose it would mean that human i would that as human beings, i would have the internet all have access to the internet all the time, is actually be the time, which is actually be horrible, but i could access all information all time. information all the time. i would, iq would, yes, be would, but my iq would, yes, be massively, increased. >> him joe rogan once >> i saw him on joe rogan once and joe said, hey, do you think we'll ever be cyborgs? and he picked and he said, picked up his phone and he said, you already use this to think, which true. isn't it? which is so true. isn't it? because you lose your phone, because if you lose your phone, you can't call an uber or whatever you can't whatever it feels like you can't think. so that i suppose that is kind think he would kind of true. i think he would argue we're on the way. you argue that we're on the way. you know, um, but we don't want this to fall into the wrong do to fall into the wrong hands, do we? absolutely not. >> oh absolutely not. >> oh absolutely not. >> would you be enhanced with a neuralink be happy? >> undoubtedly. i mean, can you imagine this the bog standard version. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> you know, you'd be you'd be super gammon, right? >> like. so you'd be like >> you'd like. so you'd be like an plated robotic cyborg an armour plated robotic cyborg gammon. that can gammon. one of the ones that can sort melt like in terminator sort of melt like in terminator two, plated sty. two, like a gold plated sty. >> oh, wow. >> yeah. oh, wow. >> yeah. oh, wow. >> i can imagine that that's come out. after a good nap.

come out. but after a good nap. >> what do you think? >> now, what do you think? >> now, what do you think? >> seriously? i just >> seriously? because i just don't. i'm scared of this technology. of think. technology. i kind of think. don't like, mess with don't mess with, like, mess with whatever like, but whatever you like, okay? but human think. human beings, i think. just leave them yeah leave them alone. yeah >> many years ago, like christopher reeve, when, you know, was superman he know, he was superman and he fell horse he wasn't fell off a horse and he wasn't superman and he could fell off a horse and he wasn't superiquite and he could fell off a horse and he wasn't superiquite get and he could fell off a horse and he wasn't superiquite get to and he could fell off a horse and he wasn't superiquite get to thed he could fell off a horse and he wasn't superiquite get to the point:ould never quite get to the point where the technology would help him. from that perspective, him. so i from that perspective, live. i see that what elon live. i can see that what elon musk doing could helpful. musk is doing could be helpful. but it becomes a sort but it's when it becomes a sort of existential human peculiarity stuff over here, stuff that goes on over here, where because where we go because we're already got posts already trying. we've got posts with colours on to make us think, yeah, so don't need think, yeah, so we don't need chips think, yeah, so we don't need chi|yeah, absolutely. i say we >> yeah, absolutely. i say we destroy all robots and computers. >> yes. starting with lewis schaffer. >> there we go. yeah people don't know that lewis schaffer is a robot. yeah, we made him we made make so much sense, made him make so much sense, doesn't it just. >> okay, >> absolutely. okay, so next on free speech i'm going to free speech nation i'm going to be learning about a series of talks and debates designed to promote speech in promote free speech in universities the next universities over the next couple so please couple of months. so please don't anywhere .

well if there is a tax involved, it's just going to add on top of it. it's not going to be instead, well, i'm being hopeful that the tories won't be quite as bad on mark dolan tonight in the big story as a tory mp steps down because of death threats over his israel stance, has suella braverman been proved right that multiculturalism has failed? >> e“- w- f— f take a ten. a >> it might take a ten. a convicted criminal and illegal immigrant a immigrant suspected of a chemical is still on the chemical attack is still on the run. proof if you needed it, that britain's asylum system is utterly broken. plus, annunciato, rees—mogg and widdecombe and tomorrow's papers. nine. papers. we're live at nine. welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. >> this tuesday, the 6th of february. ideas matter. the educational and citizenship charity launches living freedom university salons. this is an extensive programme of talks and debates which will take place in universities throughout february and march. living freedom supports free speech and aims to renew freedom through education

and debate. the salons will bnng and debate. the salons will bring students and academics together to debate all the big issues . so here to tell me more issues. so here to tell me more about it, i am joined by the convenor of living freedom, alistair donald, and student at trinity college dublin and living freedom organiser, felice bazball . welcome to the show . bazball. welcome to the show. >> i'm going to come to you first. alistair uh, you're the convenor of living freedom. >> you want to tell us a bit >> do you want to tell us a bit more about it and what you're doing with this tour? >> yeah, i mean, we've all heard endlessly about problems endlessly about the problems with speech with free speech and universities. what we're universities. so what we're doing setting a series of doing is setting up a series of events put on events where we can put on discussions for students. hopefully academics come as well, where we can talk about controversy issues if need be. we get everybody along, uh, we can get everybody along, uh, of all political persuasions and viewpoints in viewpoints and put them in a room have some room together and have some fairly open discussions about what that we need to talk what it is that we need to talk about way that's about in a way that's unfortunately not been case in. >> are there any subjects that you're not going to broach? i mean, there was the case last year of helen joyce, was a

year of helen joyce, who was a guest, was on the show guest, who was on the show tonight. she up tonight. earlier, she turned up at caius college at gonville and caius college for and the student for an event and the student students outside banging students outside were banging drums, making noises, drums, screaming, making noises, intimidating other students so that they couldn't attend . is that they couldn't attend. is that they couldn't attend. is that going to happen? >> um, i, i hope not, and we're not actually discussing transgender stuff in this series, although it has to be said that that particular incident at cambridge was the thing that motivated the very first of the salons that we did, which we did in cambridge at that college. yes i was that same college. yes i was there as a response. and you were there and you gave talk. were there and you gave a talk. uh, so we're not shying away from any issues , but we've got a from any issues, but we've got a limited number of events and we've got topics that we've chosen for this series. and we'll come back to that. another time. >> now, felice, you're, uh, still a student, so you are in a very good position to let us know how things are. i keep heanng know how things are. i keep hearing that students really hearing that students are really weak can't weak snowflakes. they can't debate they're not debate anymore. they're not interested in other ideas. my experience has not been that i've to lot of i've been to a lot of universities spoken on universities and spoken on

campus. have found campus. i actually have found the opposite. so who's right? >> it's i think >> well, i think it's i think it's very interesting we it's very interesting because we do hear that speech do hear a lot that free speech is threat campus, and is under threat on campus, and i think it is true. but i also think it is true. but i also think you're right that there is actually once you go there and once you're in university, there's lot of students there's a lot of students who are debating are very interested in debating ideas subjects. so ideas and on all subjects. so i think, you know, there is a real spirit for something like living freedom students freedom to bring students together to discuss controversial together to discuss contro that's. together to discuss contro that's what we're trying know, that's what we're trying to do here. >> and is that what attracted you to living freedom to begin with? >> yes, exactly. so i first heard of living freedom as a summer school, which was a weekend in london. and and, you know, program a was know, the program was a was a brilliant put together of everything i was interested in. um, took me out um, and it sort of took me out of the university setting, but this way you of that this way you kind of bring that same very students same spirit to the very students that are, you know, going to be debating things out in debating these things out in pubuc debating these things out in public future who to public in the future who need to need to be robustly able to debate topics, not just the debate all topics, not just the ones are sort of acceptable ones that are sort of acceptable in student unions. in student debating unions. >> um, can >> very interesting. um, can i ask what topics in specifically

are you to be broaching are you going to be broaching dunng are you going to be broaching during well we've are you going to be broaching during at well we've are you going to be broaching during at the well we've are you going to be broaching during at the summer we've that always at the summer school that phyllis mentioned, and in phyllis has mentioned, and in these we've always these salon events, we've always tried to mix up a little bit of history and a little bit of contemporary discussion. history and a little bit of cons01porary discussion. history and a little bit of cons01poraninterested n. history and a little bit of cons01poraninterestedn. people >> so we're interested in people who've something who've contributed something historically. you did john milton, spoke for us, milton, when you spoke for us, we're going to do people like john but also slightly john locke, but also slightly more people . uh more contemporary people. uh c.l.r. james, for example , we're c.l.r. james, for example, we're going to do something on on frederick douglass . all, all frederick douglass. all, all sorts of people from history . sorts of people from history. yeah. and then we're going to do also some discussions that are around some of the controversial topics today. so for example , is topics today. so for example, is the social media bans on social media are going to resolve the problems that we always hear about hate speech . yes, stuff about hate speech. yes, stuff like that. so um, yeah, a mixture of history and some contemporary discussions as well. >> i mean, that does that sounds absolutely fantastic. and it's really good, this idea of taking it all around the country to various different places. um, but do hear also about but we, we do hear also about the news, for instance, the

union of students and the students get involved students who get involved in politics they have politics and that they have a kind disproportionate voice, politics and that they have a kindthey'reiroportionate voice, politics and that they have a kindthey're the)rtionate voice, politics and that they have a kindthey're the ones ate voice, politics and that they have a kindthey're the ones ate v are, and they're the ones who are, i suppose, giving students a bad name and saying, we can only have very uh, avenue have a very narrow, uh, avenue of is what we're allowed to of what is what we're allowed to talk about. do you think that problem exaggerated, felice? >> definitely. and i think one felice? >>the finitely. and i think one felice? >>the things. and i think one felice? >>the things is nd i think one felice? >>the things is that think one felice? >>the things is that most one of the things is that most students aren't interested in students aren't interested in student politics you student politics at all. you know, in student know, voter turnout in student elections low. i elections are very low. and i think most students are just trying to on with their trying to get on with their engineering various engineering degree or various other this means that other topics. so this means that those to into those who decide to go into student politics are very specific sort of character, and that this that can sometimes show you this very monolithic view of what what like and what student life is like and what student life is like and what are like. but what students are like. but really, you know, if you go to your your your lectures, to your tutorials, wide tutorials, there's a wide array of voices and, you know, this is it's not really as bad as it as it's not really as bad as it as it seems. if you look on the student union website, i suppose, i suppose part of the problem is that the small amount you do go into the student politics have disproportionate clout. >> don't they? and you know, when it comes to things like no

platforming, for instance, that thatis platforming, for instance, that that is a pre—emptive thing. so we don't really hear about all the get invited the people who never get invited because this small because you have this small cluster students saying, because you have this small clustedon'ttudents saying, because you have this small clustedon't invite :s saying, because you have this small clustedon't invite them ng, because you have this small clustedon't invite them because well, don't invite them because they'll do you they'll cause offence. do you think offence a concept think offence as a concept is something students something that students these days worried about? days are worried about? >> i think really think >> i think so, i really think so. but i think also so. but but i think it also comes from a good place. and you know, interested in know, students are interested in changing and making changing the world and making the world a better place. and i don't think that is bad don't think that this is a bad thing. think that thing. i just think that students kind of come to students have kind of come to this. it's sort of easy way this. it's sort of an easy way out to ban offensive speech, to, to make, you this all go to make, you know, this all go away shutting it down. away by, by shutting it down. but think it's really but i think it's really important that students recognise that once they're outside , once they're outside the campus, once they're outside the campus, once they're out the real world, they are out in the real world, they are going to encounter, you know , going to encounter, you know, all views they'll have to be all views and they'll have to be able to defend themselves against it . against it. >> it's interesting, alastair, that you've chosen to focus the tour on these historical figures . i mean, are you trying to make a particular point about that, taking people back into the past? well no. >> but i think sometimes people

arrive at universities and lots of time school, they've not of time in school, they've not been to study of these been able to study some of these historical figures for, for all sorts reasons. so i think sorts of reasons. so i think it's important come into a it's important to come into a university sense that university and get a sense that you part of a historical you are part of a historical tradition and free tradition where freedom and free speech been very important speech have been very important in understand some speech have been very important in these understand some speech have been very important in these people 1derstand some speech have been very important in these people and;tand some speech have been very important in these people and how some speech have been very important in these people and how theirs of these people and how their ideas what they ideas developed and what they said. suppose to ask said. and i suppose to ask whether they're still important today. mean, we have a choice today. i mean, we have a choice as to take from the as to what to take from the past. it's not necessarily the case in the past case that everything in the past is to be something is continues to be something you'd want emphasise, but you'd want to emphasise, but people work through you'd want to emphasise, but peopl�*things work through you'd want to emphasise, but peopl�*things and'ork through you'd want to emphasise, but peopl�*things and toz through you'd want to emphasise, but peopl�*things and to workugh you'd want to emphasise, but peopl�*things and to workugout these things and to work it out for themselves. i think if for themselves. and i think if there's anything about about our events that i'd , i'd stress, events that i'd, i'd stress, it's that it's part you have to come along and work it out for yourself. it's not a kind of lecture that you write a few notes and you go away afterwards and you've got it. it's kind of and you've got it. it's kind of a discussion and you need to involve yourself and work it out for yourself. >> so critical thinking, in other going to be key. other words, is going to be key. yeah, but but it's interesting because gave at a

because i gave a talk at a university, aberystwyth university, students university, and the students turned they were great. turned up and they were great. but members staff of the, but the members of staff of the, of department who had of the department who had organised they organised this said they wouldn't because wouldn't promote it because my values them or values would upset them or wouldn't in accordance with wouldn't be in accordance with their diversity policy or something it something like that. so is it really students or is it the really the students or is it the academics with a with an agenda? yeah. >> well, i think sometimes , as >> well, i think sometimes, as felisa said, there's a noisy , felisa said, there's a noisy, uh, section of students that probably shot things down. there's academics who are probably shot things down. the into academics who are probably shot things down. the into the academics who are probably shot things down. the into the spiritiemics who are probably shot things down. the into the spirit of1ics who are probably shot things down. the into the spirit of free who are not into the spirit of free discussion, but i think quite a lot of the time it's university administrators who are taking offence . on students behalf. and offence. on students behalf. and it's them that are the problem. and we've got a new act, a new free speech act coming in in higher education and universities just now, which is going legal duty on going to place a legal duty on universities to protect and promote free speech. that's, promote free speech. and that's, you academics who you know, i know academics who are that are very pleased about that because hard time because they've had a hard time of it. but i think it's important that it doesn't just become yet another administrative that you've become yet another adma istrative that you've become yet another adma boxitive that you've become yet another adma box to e that you've become yet another adma box to tick. that you've become yet another adma box to tick. andiat you've become yet another adma box to tick. and it you've become yet another adma box to tick. and i thinkve and a box to tick. and i think these events much about

these events are very much about building of free building a culture of free speech. to be something speech. it's got to be something that resonates with people in universities. they've got to feel that they can involve themselves in debating controversial subjects, not shy away from them, because that's the way that you really the only way that you really resolve what you think about. well, this is all sounding very positive. >> sounds like >> it sounds to me like intellectual inquiry still intellectual inquiry is still very and well at very much alive and well at universities. would you agree? >> totally i >> i would totally agree. i think one of the things that that want to do in that we really want to do in dubun that we really want to do in dublin is bring this kind of intellectual, intellectual inquiry you own inquiry where you in your own subject, maybe for in subject, maybe for me in history, study, i go history, which i study, i can go into whatever i want, but in dubun into whatever i want, but in dublin in ireland, we have dublin or in ireland, we have the speech coming in the hate speech bill coming in and the things we want to and one of the things we want to do make sure students do is make sure that students can critical thinking can use that critical thinking that learning in their that they are learning in their courses, courses courses, university courses are still very good, bring still very, very good, but bring that issues, that to contemporary issues, things that are important to us today and that will today and things that will matter for us. >> fantastic. finally, >> fantastic. well, finally, before you let us before you go, can you let us know we find out about know how can we find out about the venues, the various the various venues, the various events are going on? events that are going on? >> yeah, you go to living

freedom website, living freedom. org events which freedom website, living freedom. org about events which freedom website, living freedom. org about ten events which freedom website, living freedom. org about ten of events which freedom website, living freedom. org about ten of them; which freedom website, living freedom. org about ten of them justich freedom website, living freedom. org about ten of them just now are about ten of them just now in universities stretching from exeter in the to aberdeen exeter in the south to aberdeen in north. and over to in the north. and over to ireland as well. so look at the website, find about them and website, find out about them and come along and discuss. website, find out about them and conand ong and discuss. website, find out about them and conand it's and discuss. website, find out about them and conand it's starting:uss. website, find out about them and conand it's starting next week, >> and it's starting next week, tuesday, tuesday oriel tuesday, tuesday oxford, oriel college oxford. fantastic. great stuff . well, uh, alistair and stuff. well, uh, alistair and phyllis, thanks so much for joining me . next up on free joining me. next up on free speech nation , we're going to speech nation, we're going to hear about how the crown prosecution service has a potentially been ideologically captured. it's been having meetings in secret with mermaids and stonewall. don't go anywhere. woo .

which the country doesn't need doesn't actually want. >> welcome back to free speech nafion >> welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. now it was disclosed this week that the crown prosecution service conducted meetings with

campaigning groups mermaids and stonewall , before recommending stonewall, before recommending an approach to sex by deception prosecutions which would see them all but vanish. the information commissioner's office upheld an appeal against the refusal of the cps to name who they consult on the deception as to gender section in the rape and serious sexual offences legal guide, the information commissioner said the public interest favoured disclosure of the information . disclosure of the information. now here to explain the significance of this, i'm joined by dennis kavanagh , lawyer and by dennis kavanagh, lawyer and director the gay men's director of the gay men's network dennis. hi network. hello, dennis. hi hello. so, firstly, could you explain to us why this consultation is controversial? >> um. >> um. >> it's controversial because, um, what happened was the cps announced a radically new model policy to the prosecution of sex by deception. if i back up for a moment, sex by deception is a situation where someone lies about their biological sex. these cases are quite unusual, but they're very important and very serious because they often feature people who are very sexually naive. they're often people of exactly,

people that kind of exactly, often sometimes often very young, sometimes people who have specific vulnerabilities render vulnerabilities that render them naive . and lo and behold, at the naive. and lo and behold, at the end of 2022, we got a consultation through and i discussed it with you in the past. it's the first cps consultation i've ever seen in my life that finds reasons not to prosecute it was extraordinary. it told the prosecution staff that gender identity was not only real, but that if a defendant said that they had a gender identity and they had a gender identity and the cps lawyer found it convincing in the words of the consultation, if they were living as a man, living as a woman, well, then they shouldn't be prosecuted. worse , it be prosecuted. even worse, it said shouldn't prosecute said you shouldn't prosecute where had closed their where someone had closed their eyes to the obvious. and when you think that these are vulnerable and naive people, that's victim blaming from the cps. now we only know . cps. yes. and now we only know. so we were all very, very concerned about this sort of language. these are serious cases. appeal has cases. the court of appeal has said that they're serious cases . said that they're serious cases. it said that deceptions as to your biological sex is a serious , serious offence against

someone else . it's a serious lie someone else. it's a serious lie to tell . we thought this had the to tell. we thought this had the grubby finger prints all over it of the extreme gender identity lobby at the time, and many of us, when we responded, said we thought the cps was subject to what's called institutional capture , which is where extreme capture, which is where extreme gender ideologues get in and corrupt system . um, now a very corrupt a system. um, now a very intrepid twitter user to whom we're very much indebted to. i wouldn't be here tonight if it wasn't for her hard work. called her twitter jill. her twitter handle is jill. submitted a freedom of information request and pursued this asked cps said this because she asked cps said look, have met with look, we have met with interested groups she simply interested groups and she simply said , well, you're a public said, well, you're a public service freedom of information. who are the interested groups? >> well, this is where it gets interesting because the crown prosecution refused to prosecution service refused to answer simple question . and answer that simple question. and they delayed and they delayed and and then they and they appealed. and then they were told the appeal were told that the appeal wouldn't stand. and they said, but we got there in the end. right? >> well, he did, but only thanks to jill's tenacity and doggedness . she submitted the

doggedness. she submitted the freedom of information request on the 26th of september of 2022. we've only just had the appeal withdrawn on the 16th of january this year under a new director of public prosecutions, which i suspect had something to do with it. but we learnt quite a lot in this backwards and forwards. one of the most striking when cps striking things was when the cps were arguing with the information commissioner about whether should have whether or not they should have to tell us who met with. to tell us who they met with. one things they said is one of the things they said is we shouldn't have to tell you because these organisations. because of these organisations. quote participation because of these organisations. quote would participation because of these organisations. quote would almost)articipation because of these organisations. quote would almost certainlyon public would almost certainly cause them. this is cause an issue for them. this is the saying it would cause the cps saying it would cause them an issue and then they went. it gets worse. they said they out they may be obliged to set out their position on the issues in public. that's the shock. public. so that's the shock. >> horror. >> horror. >> that's the cps saying >> oh no, that's the cps saying to us saying to jill, um , to us or saying to jill, um, that a public service shouldn't tell us who they're talking to about the decision about who does and doesn't prosecuted does and doesn't get prosecuted for rape . it's extraordinary. for rape. it's extraordinary. >> don't read anyone's >> i don't want to read anyone's minds, but it sounds very much like they didn't want us to know that met with these lobby

groups. >> i mean, you could be forgiven for thinking couldn't you? for thinking that, couldn't you? it extraordinary that they it is extraordinary that they also we name these also said we can't name these groups quote, groups because they'll, quote, be controversy. this be drawn into controversy. this is appalling. the cps know that these positions are controversial, right? they controversial, right? yes. they know that they don't want to defend them in public. what defend them in public. and what they're is they're running they're doing is they're running cover for these people. this is outrageous. this is rape prosecution policy, and they're having secret meetings with extremists and then covering from them . from them. >> can you explain to me why, for a consultation on prosecution , prosecutorial prosecution, prosecutorial policy regarding rape, you have to talk to a children's charity. >> i wish i could answer that question. >> i mean, it's just extraordinary. mermaids are a very controversial child sex change charity who are now under a safeguarding investigation for very serious allegations. stonewall have been campaigning to decriminalise sex by deception since ruth hunt, the ceo one well, one. but before the last one was in in charge . the last one was in in charge. um they also spoke to the

scottish trans alliance despite the fact that this is a prosecution policy for england and wales, it does rather look like there's a very cosy arrangement here between an elite, both in the public sector, in the cps and in the charity sector, who all seem to have one view and they want to have one view and they want to have secret meetings, they want to change prosecution policy, change it. so that we have second class defendants for, as i say, these often very vulnerable , very naive people. vulnerable, very naive people. they want them to be second class victims and they want privileged status for their preferred set of defendants. this is extraordinary. and the new dpp badly needs to get a handle on this. we still have no idea to what was said around the table by stonewall and mermaids. now you compare that. i can tell you if you want to know what the gay men's network said in this consultation, or sex matters or lgb alliance , who mermaids were lgb alliance, who mermaids were trying to close down at the time, or transgender trend, you can look up all our responses online. why should these be

secrets? so i would call upon the new director of public prosecutions, please to publish and tell us what stonewall are saying and what mermaids are saying and what mermaids are saying behind closed doors . we saying behind closed doors. we have a right to know this is a pubuc have a right to know this is a public but don't we public service, but don't we already know insofar as we've seen the crown prosecution service use phrases that imply that gender identity is an indisputable fact when , of indisputable fact when, of course, it is a quasi religious belief system. >> um, if the crown prosecution service is taking that view, then how can they possibly be considered impartial? well, quite. >> and you know, when you read the consultation, there is an uncritical adoption of the ideological language of gender. they talk about some people being genderqueer , sex, being being genderqueer, sex, being assigned at birth , the law. assigned at birth, the law. there's even critics of the fact that you can't get a gender recognition certificate to be non—binary. there's comments in the consultation about gender identity services, health care for children , which is way for children, which is way outside. what we call russo rape and serious sexual offences policy. it's institutional

capture . the dpp needs to get capture. the dpp needs to get a hold of this because we can't have confidence in an ideologically captured public service that's supposed to be independent. and also, i question how employees of the of the crown prosecution service, there's plenty of sensible employees would ever be able to operate this policy. because if you don't believe in gender identity, i don't see you could. >> isn't this a broader problem, though, because we've many though, because we've seen many cases police showing cases of the police showing clear of institutional clear signs of institutional capture. in police, capture. if it's in the police, if courts, if it's if it's in the courts, if it's in cps , then we're in real in the cps, then we're in real trouble, aren't we? >> we are in real trouble. >> we are in real trouble. >> and you know, there are good signs. badenoch stood on signs. kemi badenoch stood on the the house of the floor of the house of commons said, stonewall, commons and said, stonewall, do not make the in this not make the law in this country. she's right. but it's worth saying they well to. >> yeah. and they're still in many institutions and corporations misrepresenting the many institutions and corp> completely. well, law is >> completely. well, the law is entirely misrepresented in this consultation. i won't go into the ins and outs of the crown against mcnally the of against mcnally and the law of consent, but tell you it consent, but i can tell you it is. plain wrong. but

is. it is just plain wrong. but the of the matter is, this the fact of the matter is, this we've got people who couldn't win in court of appeal. win up in the court of appeal. they influence they couldn't influence parliament. before they couldn't influence parofment. before they couldn't influence parof this, . before they couldn't influence parof this, said before they couldn't influence parof this, said they before they couldn't influence parof this, said they were fore all of this, said they were going try and influence mp. going to try and influence mp. they obviously decided that wouldn't work. they've wouldn't work. so they've decided to go and decided instead to go and subvert law behind closed subvert the law behind closed doors. haven't this doors. and haven't we seen this again again and again? again and again and again? didn't see this where didn't we see this where akua reindorf described their behaviour? i think it was reading university. you'll correct if i'm wrong as i'm correct me if i'm wrong as i'm trying to get ahead law trying to get ahead of the law and as they wished it to and the law as they wished it to be, rather that was be, rather than that was reading. it was rather than the law as it was. and i'm sorry no one voted for stonewall. if stonewall make law stonewall don't make the law in in country the secretary in this country as the secretary of equality said, then of state for equality said, then it's well time that that it's down. well time that that that was case in terms of that was the case in terms of the operation of our public services. >> so what would you like to see happen now? what do you some sort the dpp, sort of statement from the dpp, some investigation some sort of investigation perhaps something like that. some sort of investigation perwell,;omething like that. some sort of investigation perwell, i'd ething like that. some sort of investigation perwell, i'd likeig like that. some sort of investigation perwell, i'd like firstze that. some sort of investigation perwell, i'd like first i that. some sort of investigation perwell, i'd like first i want >> well, i'd like first i want to on earth is going to know what on earth is going on this consultation. on with this consultation. >> kicked into the >> it's been kicked into the long heard nothing. long grass. we've heard nothing. i to know what the cps i want to know what the cps policy is. secondly i want to

know is being said know what on earth is being said to the cps behind closed doors. third, correct and third, if we are correct and this clear, institutional this is clear, institutional capture want understand capture, i want to understand why there's been ideological stealth capture of a public service under the watch of the relevant government ministers. and if that has occurred, the attorney general and the director of public prosecutions need to sort this out . rape need to sort this out. rape prosecution policy is too serious to be sacrificed on the altar of gender identity . no. altar of gender identity. no. i'm sorry. this far and no further. this is too serious. >> and just very finally, just to give the other side, my understanding is that very recently stonewall have updated their and added their website and added a footnote to suggest that they do not, in fact, give legal advice. what do you make of that? >> well, good luck to them. >> well, good luck to them. >> mean, as lawyer to >> i mean, as one lawyer to another, always admire another, i always admire an attempt exclusion clause. attempt at an exclusion clause. let's see how that plays out , let's see how that plays out, shall we? >> fantastic. well, dennis kavanagh, you so for kavanagh, thank you so much for joining me. you. joining me. thank you. >> and next up on free speech

nafion >> and next up on free speech nation suella braverman hits out at the police once again, a football manager deals with a surprise disruption and a giraffe gives a tortoise a bit of a helping hand. >> you do not want to miss that. see you in a moment.

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. and it's time for social sensations. this is the part of the show where we look at what's been going viral this week on social media, and going viral today, news interview by today, a gb news interview by camilla tominey with suella braverman, the former home secretary, explained why she remained with how the remained unhappy with how the police are handling pro—palestine protests. let's have look what we've seen and have a look what we've seen and let's look at the facts. >> now months of hateful >> is now months of hateful marches taking place as a regular fixture on the streets of britain . we've seen people of britain. we've seen people chanting jihad and the police

turning a blind eye. we've seen very many different reasons for, uh , explanations for jihad. uh, explanations for jihad. >> apparently, that was a low point for me. >> when the met police came out and justified the chanting of jihad . jihad. >> i mean, she's got a point . >> i mean, she's got a point. that was incredible. you had a group hizb ut—tahrir, who are now outlawed in the uk, but were previously anyway outlawed in in most arabic countries standing there calling for jihad, calling out how the armies should rise up and the police put out a tweet saying but jihad can tweet saying yeah, but jihad can mean lots of things, you know, it can mean like an interior struggle, it can, the struggle, which it can, by the way, when you're hizb way, but not when you're hizb ut—tahrir about armies ut—tahrir shouting about armies on streets. on the streets. >> i think we need some >> no, i think we need some context, don't we, on this one. i'm sure the police got i'm pretty sure the police got this yes, i'm a big fan i'm pretty sure the police got thisuella. yes, i'm a big fan of suella. >> you indeed? >> are you indeed? >> are you indeed? >> i think i mean, yeah, >> yeah, i think i mean, yeah, that's good that that's gone viral. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah, it means that lots of people are seeing it because. yeah. fantastic. yes >> had a jihad? um paul >> because it can mean anything. >> because it can mean anything. >> yeah. no, i've never had jihad. >> i meant as a manicure. it's a

kind of manicure. >> sorry. >> sorry. >> i thought it was a carry. yeah, but, um, no no, no no no. sorry. chris trying to be professional. um, no, i mean, it's mad, though, isn't it it's mad, though, isn't it? it is absolutely andrew and is absolutely mad. andrew and the all comes back. the police, it all comes back. the fear again for me. yeah. they're one they're very scared of one particular people. yes. particular group of people. yes. and, they're afraid to upset and, uh, they're afraid to upset them in some way , but it kind of them in some way, but it kind of goes against they goes against everything they stand law is quite stand for. the law is quite binary it's like and bad. binary. it's like good and bad. yeah, uh, and it's just yeah, sure. uh, and it's just very for them to stand up very easy for them to stand up and that's bad. and say, that's bad. >> don't you just the law? >> yeah. i mean, find i find >> yeah. i mean, i find i find it absolutely astonishing. i mean, i also there's mean, and i also think there's something very patronising and a bit a kind of soft form of racism is that absolutely. >> no, we're not going to apply the in case we offend muslim the law in case we offend muslim people, people people, because muslim people are uniquely prone violence. are uniquely prone to violence. what saying? what are they saying? extreme generosity interpretation in generosity of interpretation in one others. one area and not in others. >> examples hate >> plenty of examples of hate speech would would like speech that i would i would like to debate. yeah. >> i mean, and we before >> i mean, and we saw it before with grooming gangs. i mean, with the grooming gangs. i mean, the idea that, well, the police admitting we're not going to do

anything because we don't want to to be racist. i'm sure to appear to be racist. i'm sure your muslim is thinking, your average muslim is thinking, yes, you to something yes, you need to do something about absolutely. about that. absolutely. what's going anyway, about that. absolutely. what's going uh, anyway, about that. absolutely. what's going uh, let's anyway, about that. absolutely. what's going uh, let's lookiyway, about that. absolutely. what's going uh, let's look nowy, let's, uh, let's have a look now at this next one. even at famous football managers have to deal with admin, but with mundane life admin, but they usually do it in the they don't usually do it in the middle conference. middle of a press conference. let's look. let's have a look. >> does it does it feel a bit like is happening again? like that is happening again? >> dentist is calling. that >> the dentist is calling. that might be important. >> is just sorry >> i'm sorry. is that just sorry again, dentist that is quite again, the dentist that is quite important. >> i can't imagine he's amazing teeth. >> he doesn't need it. >> he doesn't need it. >> i feel like that's a bit of product placement going on there. >> it was, of course, the dentist who's your dentist? yeah, you look wonderful. >> yeah. very good teeth. >> yeah. very good teeth. >> he's had mortgage worth of dental. >> yeah. he's got. yeah. there's a out there somewhere a horse out there somewhere without teeth . without without teeth. >> well, let's have another look at a video. this is the last one we've got tonight because everyone loves a cute animal video. or my producers do anyway. uh, so let's have a look

i >>i -- >> i don't know, i think the giraffe pushing the tortoise along is kind of a. >> well, it's shaming the tortoise for being too soft. i actually find it deeply offensive and kind of racist. well, i'd like some more context. >> i thought maybe he was giving him some protection from the sun or, i don't know, or maybe he was to him. do you think? >> well, i don't know. i don't know, i don't know, do we. >> there's a mega regression. wouldn't really. the massive wouldn't it really. the massive giraffe along. giraffe just poking him along. we what was saying we don't know what he was saying in his ear. was he your mum? don't love you. get out the way. >> i mean, sorry i >> i mean, i'm sorry if i was walking down street and some walking down the street and some bigger bloke came along and started along, started pushing me along, saying, going saying, you're not going fast enough, police. i'm enough, i'd call the police. i'm outraged on the tortoise's behalf. this is the part of behalf. now this is the part of the we're going to the show where we're going to talk your unfiltered talk through your unfiltered dilemmas. thanks much dilemmas. thanks ever so much for emailing in with your

problems. can't believe for emailing in with your protdons. can't believe for emailing in with your protdo it. can't believe for emailing in with your protdo it. but can't believe for emailing in with your protdo it. but anyway,believe for emailing in with your protdo it. but anyway, here le for emailing in with your protdo it. but anyway, here we you do it. but anyway, here we go. dilemma is from go. our first dilemma is from lucy. says i've just left lucy. lucy says i've just left my slightly poor terms, my job on slightly poor terms, but they're having a big party to their 20th to celebrate their 20th birthday. i've been invited and there free drinks. it there will be free drinks. is it bad form if i show up? most people don't when they people do, don't they? when they get in these situations, when they've left there's a they've left work and there's a party then they come back, party and then they come back, it's a bit brent, isn't it's a bit david brent, isn't it? people do do it. it? but people do do it. >> yeah. and i stopped listening after course after three drinks. of course you along. i i you should go along. i mean, i just just needs to act just just she needs to act professional in some way. would be uh, no, don't. >> she doesn't. that's the one thing she has to do. >> you do would you do this? >> well, i guess so. yeah. she doesn't need to be professional. she can now be herself. she can have alcohol and say what she thinks. >> so best thinks. » so thinks. >> so best about going >> so the best thing about going to party when you've left to a work party when you've left the work, go straight up to the boss and you say what think. boss and you say what you think. >> course. >> yes. not here, of course. i love boss here we're love the boss here and we're going on to our second going to move on to our second dilemma. one's from sophie. going to move on to our second dilemnsays one's from sophie. going to move on to our second dilemnsays likee's from sophie. going to move on to our second dilemnsays likee's keep sophie. going to move on to our second dilemnsays likee's keep myhie. sophie says i like to keep my whatsapps span. so i moved sophie says i like to keep my wheexipps span. so i moved sophie says i like to keep my wheex tots span. so i moved sophie says i like to keep my wheex to the span. so i moved sophie says i like to keep my wheex to the archive so i moved sophie says i like to keep my wheex to the archive folder.|oved sophie says i like to keep my wheex to the archive folder. now

my ex to the archive folder. now he thinks i'm raging because it looks i'm ghosting him. he thinks i'm raging because it looibeen i'm ghosting him. he thinks i'm raging because it looibeen eightghosting him. he thinks i'm raging because it looibeen eight months him. the it's been eight months since the break—up. he belongs in break—up. surely he belongs in the archive. i think. delete altogether, block. the archive. i think. delete altoge'house. block. the archive. i think. delete altoge'house. do block. the archive. i think. delete altoge'house. do you k. the archive. i think. delete altoge'house. do you think? move. house. what do you think? >> i didn't there an >> i didn't know there was an archive is fascinating. >> got some admin to >> i've got some admin to do later. >> yeah. um. >> yeah. um. >> yeah. um. >> yeah. you know, whatsapp groups >> yeah. you know, whatsapp gro i)s >> yeah. you know, whatsapp gro i mean, they just go. they >> i mean, they just go. they do. them ten do. you leave them for ten minutes got essay. minutes and you've got an essay. yes, absolutely. >> i think block is block >> yeah. i think block is block and move on. >> life's too short. what do you think, paul. >> yeah, it's eight months later. him? later. was she talking to him? because the idea. because the idea is the idea. the that he's the premise there is that he's been archive and he been put in the archive and he in way knows that that's in some way knows that that's happened because appears happened because she appears to be move be ignoring him. move on, move on. you okay? be ignoring him. move on, move on. well, you okay? be ignoring him. move on, move on. well, we've you okay? be ignoring him. move on, move on. well, we've got okay? be ignoring him. move on, move on. well, we've got time? be ignoring him. move on, move on. well, we've got time for just >> well, we've got time for just one more. i think this one's from james says my from james. james says my girlfriend that girlfriend keeps telling me that she'll vote labour in the next election, but has no idea that i'm of conservative i'm a member of the conservative party. clean and risk party. do i come clean and risk jeopardising the relationship? >> that it would >> i would say that it would imply, relationship, >> i would say that it would inwould relationship, >> i would say that it would inwould give relationship, >> i would say that it would inwould give it relationship, >> i would say that it would inwould give it rbittionship, >> i would say that it would inwould give it rbit ofiship, it would give it a bit of a frisson, a bit of a kink thing. >> well, maybe for about 15 seconds then might seconds and then it might be oven over. >> e know. >> i don't know. >> i don't know. >> so okay. well, look, that's all got time for, i'm

all we've got time for, i'm afraid. you ever so afraid. thank you ever so much for free speech forjoining us for free speech nation. the when nation. this was the week when elon announced he will elon musk announced that he will be humanity. and myself be saving humanity. and myself and cox formed a act and paul cox formed a double act called gay. chief called chief gay. and chief gammon coming to a near you soon. thank you so much to my panel. soon. thank you so much to my panel . cressida wetton and paul panel. cressida wetton and paul cox and to all my brilliant guests. this evening. and by the way, if you to join us live way, if you want to join us live in the and part of our in the studio and be part of our wonderful audience, you can easily the address easily do that. the address is right on screen. sro right there on the screen. sro audience .com. you can apply there. along and in audience .com. you can apply theifun. along and in audience .com. you can apply theifun. stayilong and in audience .com. you can apply theifun. stay tunedind in audience .com. you can apply theifun. stay tuned for in audience .com. you can apply theifun. stay tuned for the in the fun. stay tuned for the brilliant mark dolan tonight that's and don't that's coming up next. and don't forget every forget headlines is on every night 11:00. that's the late night at 11:00. that's the late night at 11:00. that's the late night show where night paper preview show where comedians take you through the next stories. thanks comedians take you through the nexwatching. stories. thanks comedians take you through the nexwatching. seetories. thanks comedians take you through the nexwatching. see torie next anks comedians take you through the nexwatching. see torie next week . for watching. see you next week. you >> that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers , sponsors of boxt boilers, sponsors of weather on . gb news.

weather on. gb news. >> hello there . good evening. >> hello there. good evening. i'm jonathan vautrey here of your gb news weather forecast provided by the met office. if you remember what weather conditions you had on sunday, you'll probably see very similar conditions on monday. we conditions on monday. as we start off new week, systems start off the new week, systems are very slow moving the are very slow moving at the moment. pressure situated moment. high pressure situated towards the south, but this weather become stalled towards the south, but this weatheareas become stalled towards the south, but this weatheareas scotlande stalled towards the south, but this weatheareas scotland andilled across areas of scotland and will very persistent will provide very persistent rainfall across particularly western districts, the highlands, and bute . as highlands, argyll and bute. as we the night, a we head throughout the night, a rain and rain warning is in force and some and disruption is some flooding and disruption is possible reasonably possible elsewhere. a reasonably cloudy night, some cloudy night, though some clearer spells developing through central areas at times mild for all of us, though temperatures not dropping much lower than 9 or 7 c. a chillier start to the new week for the far of scotland, though, start to the new week for the far a of scotland, though, start to the new week for the far a touchscotland, though, start to the new week for the far a touch of tland, though, start to the new week for the far a touch of frost, though, start to the new week for the far a touch of frost, tho ash, with a touch of frost and as this just pushes ever this rain band just pushes ever so northwards into the so slightly northwards into the cold it, we could cold air ahead of it, we could see a touch of snow for the likes sutherland likes of caithness, sutherland even a time. even to lower levels for a time. but will really but that rain will really be persistent areas but that rain will really be persit'snt areas but that rain will really be persit's going areas but that rain will really be persit's going to areas but that rain will really be persit's going to provide areas but that rain will really be persit's going to provide a reas but that rain will really be persit's going to provide a very and it's going to provide a very miserable and day here. miserable and wet day here. again relatively blustery and cloudy other areas.

cloudy for most other areas. some of drizzle to watch some patches of drizzle to watch out for. mr murch around coastal districts, temperatures are touched compared the touched down compared to the weekend around 9 to 12 c on tuesday. that rain band will eventually push its way slightly further so moving further southward, so moving into northern into northern ireland, northern england mountain snow england a bit of mountain snow possible well. to the possible here as well. to the south, on to that mild south, you hold on to that mild cloudy blustery to cloudy, blustery theme, but to the open up the doors the north we open up the doors to a touch brighter to something a touch brighter with snow showers, also with some snow showers, but also colder. colder colder. and those colder conditions to conditions are slowly going to push other push their way across other areas the throughout the areas of the uk throughout the forthcoming . bye bye. forthcoming week. bye bye. >> looks like things are heating up . boxt boilers spot of weather up. boxt boilers spot of weather on gb news is

gb news. >> good evening, i'm ray hudson in the gb newsroom. headliners is coming up in just a moment, but first the news headlines. the prime minister has urged the newly restored power sharing executive in northern ireland to focus on delivering for families and businesses. rishi sunak was visiting air ambulance crews in lisburn ahead of a meeting at stormont with first minister michelle o'neill and deputy emma little—pengelly tomorrow . the little—pengelly tomorrow. the institutions were restored after a deal between mr sunak's government and the dup to allay unionist concerns over post—brexit trading arrangements . mr sunak described money provided by the government as part of the return package as generous . generous. >> the deal that we negotiated

last year,