camilla tominey show. it's the camilla tominey show. it's wet, it's windy . grab yourself a wet, it's windy. grab yourself a cuppa. don't go anywhere because we've got a fun packed 90 minutes ahead. it's been another very busy week in westminster. labour has managed to secure two new mps with big wins in this week's by elections. is sir keir starmer on his way to number 10.7 i'll be asking shadow minister nick thomas—symonds for his thoughts on this and the forthcoming rochdale by—election, which labour has suspended its candidate for. i'll be grilling the minister of state for illegal migration, michael tomlinson, can rishi sunak really stop the boats .7 and sunak really stop the boats.7 and with reform on the rise, do the tories have a hope of winning the next general election? will it be in may, or will it be in the autumn? we'll be discussing that too. i'll also be speaking to chairman the to former chairman of the defence select committee, tobias ellwood, mp whose house ellwood, the tory mp whose house was by was targeted this week by pro—palestinian protesters. he'll be joining us live from the munich security conference . the munich security conference. as news broke of putin's political opponent alexei navalny's death. this week, i'll

be joined by former british ambassador to russia sir andrew wood, to find out what he makes of foreign secretary david cameron's claim that there should consequences for the should be consequences for the russian president. also be russian president. i'll also be joined by former scotland yard top cop murray gilbertson , top cop david murray gilbertson, as we get to grips with whether the girls in blue have the boys and girls in blue have lost way. the people's lost their way. and the people's panel back . we in panel is back. we are in nottingham and as ever, we nottingham today and as ever, we want hear from you, our loyal want to hear from you, our loyal gb and we want you to gb viewers and we want you to have your say . have your say. right, let's get stuck into the sunday morning papers . i'm sunday morning papers. i'm delighted to be joined now by senior news political commentator nigel nelson with gb news, formerly of the mirror and the people . nigel, lovely to see the people. nigel, lovely to see you this morning. let's start with stormin starmer as we're headlining it because he's made a bit of an intervention at the munich security conference. it's been interpreted by the sunday

telegraph as a sort of slight on donald trump making that point about nato defence spending. how do you interpret it? i mean, he's over in been over in munich trying to look very prime ministerial. >> well, that's the point of going there to actually show that he's there on the world stage, that he's about to be prime minister. and so he needs to meet foreign leaders. he doesn't actually mention trump in particular in the in this particular in the article he's being quoted in. um, but what he's talking about is that that people should actually pull together. so the issue at the moment is that trump is saying we're going rather over the top by saying , rather over the top by saying, uh, if nato members don't stump up the 2% that they're meant to, then russian go and invade them. it seems to be the paraphrase he's using. the second half of that seems a bit ott, but the first half of it is a fair point, isn't it? >> i note as well in the sunday telegraph that lo and behold, he's not even in power. and yet trump the dial

trump is pushing the dial because a load these european because a load of these european countries are now scrambling to make 2% pledge because make their 2% pledge because they look like they don't want to look like they've egg on their face. they've got egg on their face. if next. if he becomes the next. >> that that when trump >> i think that that when trump was was was president and made these comments by saying, look, everyone's got to got to actually stump up the money that they agreed in 2014. and back then when it was only the us, uk and greece that actually were stumping up the money. now 11 nato members are doing it, but you've still got a membership of 31. and germany, for instance , 31. and germany, for instance, won't be able to get get their money in place until until 2031. >> i mean, it's interesting, this intervention he hasn't mentioned trump, but you know, everybody knows what he means. uh, his shadow foreign secretary, david lammy, has been pretty robust in his criticism of trump in the past. so of other members of the labour party , it's going to be a bit party, it's going to be a bit tricky, isn't it? if he's pm and donald trump is president, it'll be tricky. >> mean, again, i think >> but i mean, again, i think that, keir starmer, at some

that, um, keir starmer, at some point we'll have to make a visit to america. um, but what he's also saying in this piece in the telegraph is that work telegraph is that he'll work with whoever elected with whoever is elected president . he's trying he's president. he's trying he's doing of thing the doing the sort of thing the usual , um, doing the sort of thing the usual, um, politician thing of not interfering with somebody else's election. >> although, is he being a little bit too complacent? he's released this slick video this morning looking very prime ministerial. there's a warning from david blunkett in the mail on sunday. today, call me a party pooper. but sir keir starmer not take victory starmer must not take victory for granted. i mean , they've won for granted. i mean, they've won these by elections. but you know , we haven't actually had a national vote. i appreciate what the but isn't the polls are saying, but isn't it about tory than it more about tory apathy than labour it more about tory apathy than labyes, certainly. i mean both >> yes, certainly. i mean both in kingswood and wellingborough, it's tory voters mostly staying at because they're just fed at home because they're just fed up with the tory party um, what david blunkett on mail david blunkett says on the mail on sunday that he's he's on sunday is that he's he's looking back to the last few looking back not to the last few elections. he goes right back to 1964 or. and what do you say, do you remember clearly that. yes.

i think it was in nappies at that stage. um, so, so he's going back to , to 64 and what he going back to, to 64 and what he says is similar situation. tories in complete chaos. um, labour looked like they were going to get an absolute landslide and ended up with just a majority of four. yeah theresa may would have been happy with that. well that's right. yes. um, um, and that's a good point, isn't it? >> you know, idea that >> you know, this idea that they're already in power and he needs avoided. let's just needs to be avoided. let's just move as well what the by move on as well to what the by elections seem to suggesting elections seem to be suggesting in terms of the timing of the next election. i really next election. i can't really believe mirror believe this, but the mirror says the tories are eyeing may says the tories are eyeing a may vote. they and dan vote. are they kamikaze? and dan hodgesin vote. are they kamikaze? and dan hodges in the mail on sunday is also saying that the unpalatable truth longer rishi waits truth is the longer rishi waits to an election the worst to call an election the worst it will for tories may will be for the tories may election. have gone mad? night. >> well, i think that they've been groundwork for been laying the groundwork for a may year. may election since last year. um, now what? mikey? mikey smith is saying in the sunday mirror is saying in the sunday mirror is that the reason they're thinking about it again is because they don't think that

rishi can last until, rishi sunak can last until, well, until the autumn, because his own mps might topple them . his own mps might topple them. dan is saying things aren't going to get any better, so you might as well go now. i mean, what they were doing that, what they were doing was that, um, back in in november, the first thing was national insurance tax cuts . now, what insurance tax cuts. now, what that did was they brushed that through in january , idea being through in january, idea being you'd have three months in your pay you'd have three months in your pay packets until may, bedding in that. >> then the benefit. >> then the benefit. >> then the benefit. >> then there was the promise to get the boats off. yeah. and there were also whitehall officials were, were um quietly to talking local authorities that weren't having elections on may the 2nd. and to see what the availability of their polling stations, uh, was . so given that stations, uh, was. so given that the only reason you could be doing that is you're thinking we might go for may as things have got worse now we're in recession when the polls are not closed , when the polls are not closed, rwanda is probably not going to work , um, for some months anyway work, um, for some months anyway . may even if it ever works at

all. as a result of that, it makes a may election look less likely . we'll see. they may just likely. we'll see. they may just cut and run and say, look, let's just do it. >> extraordinary stuff. >> extraordinary stuff. >> let's talk about the farage factor quickly. tories already fear reform. if farage were its leader , they'd be truly leader, they'd be truly terrified. i mean , that's in the terrified. i mean, that's in the sunday times. i think it's a pretty accurate assessment, isn't it? it's interesting to see doing that well see reform doing that well without nigel farage in an official role. i appreciate he is that honorary chairmanship is in that honorary chairmanship role and also without the name recognition that ukip had . recognition that ukip had. >> yes. and i mean , nigel keeps >> yes. and i mean, nigel keeps teasing about what he's teasing us about what he's actually going to do. we still don't whether he's going to don't know whether he's going to really into, know, really get stuck into, you know, what i think he's going do? what i think he's going to do? >> go on dive bomb in about eight weeks before election, eight weeks before the election, could eight weeks before the election, couand that's what the tories >> and that's what the tories are terrified the idea that are terrified of, the idea that it be hit two months it would be hit two months before. some before. but some really interesting up interesting figures they come up with given that they got with that, given that they got 13% got 13% of the vote 13% reform, got 13% of the vote in wellingborough, is the in wellingborough, which is the which the same, which is about the same, a little bit more than the than ukip got back in 2015. so they

had 4 million votes in 2015 when only one mp. but even so, the figures that the sunday times have come out with is the damage they could cause to the to the tories. so at 10% of the vote, the tories lose 39 seats, 12, 47 seats, 15, 63. so they are a significant if when the polls narrow towards the election . narrow towards the election. ian.and narrow towards the election. ian. and we are just looking at looking a lot closer, there could be the major player but the farage factor, i think puts up the predicted vote share to around that 17% mark, which is obviously like cataclysmic for the tories . the tories. >> um, we will watch that with great interest and await. mr farage has announcement when it comes. let's just have quick comes. let's just have a quick chat before finish about the chat before we finish about the royals, there's a number royals, because there's a number of a couple of really interesting stories. first of all, that prince william is building this social housing in cornwall part remit as cornwall as part of his remit as the of cornwall. he's in the duke of cornwall. he's in charge now of the duchy of cornwall but equally, cornwall. but equally, there's this story about how

this other story about how william not allow harry william will not allow harry back family. first of back into the family. first of all, i mean, in your previous sort mirror stroke people, sort of mirror stroke people, guys, the papers were very much against isn't an against the monarchy. isn't an initiative like this? william building housing likely building social housing likely to impress the left ? to impress the left? >> yeah. i mean, personally, i am impressed that, um , my am impressed that, um, my position has been previously that i'm not a royalist, but i am a monarchist. and i do think that it's , uh, things like this that it's, uh, things like this where they connect with the people, that it's exactly what william should be doing. on the second point about prince harry, um, what prince harry has offered is he'll come back and do a few duties while his father , his father, is ill. william william is saying, according of him, isn't he? >> yes. >> yes. >> i mean, yeah, whatever, whatever his duties might be. but william is saying no way. i mean, according to briefings to the sunday express and sunday mirror, uh, he says, look , we're mirror, uh, he says, look, we're just not going to have him. he's not coming back. i think that's probably right that he got harry. he abandoned the working royal rota . he then slagged off

royal rota. he then slagged off his family, first on television, then in a book. it would be a bit difficult to actually bring him back, even in a kind of locum role as, uh, i think it's really intrigued that this has sort of been briefed into the sunday papers in the sense that when we saw him in whistler in canada with meghan sort of promoting invictus games, he promoting the invictus games, he was, , according to was, uh, according to a colleague, you know, sort of came over and thanked the press for being there, which thought for being there, which i thought was extraordinary, unusual. >> f- unusual. >> they've relaunched unusual. >> website they've relaunched unusual. >> website site y've relaunched unusual. >> website site featuring nched this website site featuring meghan's of arms and meghan's royal coat of arms and very much referring to themselves in a royal sense, using their titles . using their titles. >> is it that he is now dabbling with idea of coming back to with the idea of coming back to royal because they've royal life because they've realised their royal realised that it's their royal connections them connections that give them meaning ? meaning? >> well, would, i would have >> well, i would, i would have thought the royal thought that certainly the royal connections them connections that give them money, um, but they actually that's they want to that's why they don't want to get titles. and so on. get rid of titles. and so on. >> but that wasn't as part of the sandringham they the sandringham summit. they were told in explicit terms by the queen and indeed at the

the late queen and indeed at the time, charles, that they time, prince charles, that they weren't on weren't to be cashing in on these royal connections. but they to be they did. they weren't to be using coats arms using these coats of arms and other matters, they did. other matters, but they did. >> um, but but at the moment it seems to be that they're a long way from able to come back way from being able to come back for full kind of for a full kind of reconciliation. varne personally, like to see a personally, i'd like to see a reconciliation harry reconciliation in between harry and the family. and the rest of the family. i know that's that's me. doesn't mean royal duties, mean he has to do royal duties, though. i think royal duties though. no i think royal duties might be a little bit of a stretch. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> nelson, elm-- >> nigel nelson, thank you for joining morning. lovely joining me this morning. lovely to you. now, will to speak to you. now, will hollis in nottingham with our hollis is in nottingham with our people's morning. people's panel this morning. will the people will what's tying the people in knots. knots. knots. in knots. >> good morning . yes. well we're >> good morning. yes. well we're live from nottingham in the fantastic british coffee shop. they've let us in early this morning because you can't talk politics without here hearing from the ordinary people . but my from the ordinary people. but my panel today, camilla, or anything but ordinary, they're extraordinary , aren't they? extraordinary, aren't they? we've got michael mckeever, who's a retired headteacher from nottingham. we've got catherine boehm, who is independent

boehm, who is an independent councillor, well as councillor, as well as a landlady in nearby eastwood. and we've jeff hampson . you're we've got jeff hampson. you're a veteran you're also veteran and you're also a veteran and you're also a veteran support worker. we've got for one question, guys. got time for one question, guys. we've got all the politicians on camilla's programme morning camilla's programme this morning . michael, a retired headteacher. might you like headteacher. what might you like to hear our shadow to hear from our shadow ministers and government ministers and government ministers today? >> to ask them what the >> i'd like to ask them what the strategy support public strategy is to support public service this country, service in this country, especially which are in especially schools which are in crisis financially and in terms of recruitment, big problems with recruitment . with recruitment. >> michael, go anywhere. >> michael, don't go anywhere. catherine what might you like to hear our politicians today? hear from our politicians today? >> people are talking >> a lot of people are talking about migration. what about illegal migration. what are going to do about it? i'm are we going to do about it? i'm are we going to do about it? i'm a realist, not a racist. so let's out what's happening. let's find out what's happening. well, illegal well, we've got the illegal migration so migration minister on today, so it's to ask it's the perfect time to ask that question. >> and jeff, what do you think of veteran support worker? what might you to our might you like to ask our politicians might you like to ask our pol right.; we might you like to ask our polright.; we have uh, >> right. well, we have uh, seven, approximately 7000 homeless veterans living on the streets, many with ptsd , who streets, many with ptsd, who were getting no help from the government whatsoever . they can

government whatsoever. they can find the funds to house immigrants, but they cannot find the funds to help to take veterans off the streets. >> so you'd like to hear from what question might you like to ask jeff, what is the government going to do about it? jeff, thank you guys. we're not going anywhere. we've got a fantastic coffee fantastic coffee shop and fantastic coffee. we've got the program on as well in the corner. so come back us in a little bit and back to us in a little bit and we'll have plenty more to say about morning. about the politics this morning. camilla hear. camilla great to hear. >> very much to will >> thank you very much to will and our people's panel in nottingham. now don't go anywhere a few anywhere because in just a few minutes i'll be speaking to the former of the defence former chairman of the defence select committee, tobias ellwood, house ellwood, after his house was targeted by targeted this week by pro—palestine protesters. he'll be joining us live from the munich security conference in just a moment

welcome back to the camilla tominey show. lovely to have your company this sunday morning . i'm joined now by former chairman defence select chairman of the defence select committee ellwood. the mp committee tobias ellwood. the mp for east. tobias, for bournemouth east. tobias, thank you for joining for bournemouth east. tobias, thank you forjoining me for bournemouth east. tobias, thank you for joining me from munich. of all, i have to munich. first of all, i have to ask you, you know, how are you and your family? what a dreadful series of events had to series of events you had to endure week from these endure last week from these pro—palestinian , pro—palestinian protesters, effectively gathering in a mob outside your home. >> yeah, it was very surprising on a number of accounts to be told by the police , give them a told by the police, give them a fair , uh, gratitude. they were fair, uh, gratitude. they were able to see on the internet that an event was going to take place outside my house, warned me to off go there. but you don't expect at this sort of behaviour in today's day and age, and we need to make sure it does not become the norm. the mps , you become the norm. the mps, you know, i expect a bit of rough and tumble. they expect criticism publicly and so forth. but when it comes to your house, you'd hope that there would be a

line drawn on what is acceptable behaviour. and i'm very grateful to tugendhat. the security to tom tugendhat. the security minister for and chris philp, the policing minister, to ask the policing minister, to ask the police to look at the current laws to see whether they need to be improved because otherwise it's not just, um, the impact on families and so forth. it's also the next generation of parliament, the people that we'd like to step forward into public life. more people would be put off by wanting to become an mp . off by wanting to become an mp. if we don't recognise some standards of which , uh, uh, standards of which, uh, uh, behaviour in demonstrations, uh, is allowed to operate. >> i mean, i totally agree with that. and i see that you have praised dorset for police for giving you advance warning. so you didn't go back to your home, although have any arrests been made who descended on made of those who descended on your property? made of those who descended on your pithis�*ty? made of those who descended on your lehls is? made of those who descended on your lehls is very much a live >> so this is very much a live conversation that evening they had a series of police cars that were protecting my property , an were protecting my property, an armed response unit there as well, to watch activity. don't

forget that when these demonstrations take place, which are very intensive and dozens of people there, they almost want arrests to take place. they want to ratchet things up. and it was a view of the police on the ground to allow this to, uh, to sort of fizzle out. they were there for 3.5 hours. they then dispersed. uh, you imagine the number of police required to move them on or to sort of make arrests. and uh, arrests. and so forth. uh, dorset police , you know, made, i dorset police, you know, made, i think , the right decision at think, the right decision at this time, the bigger question, though, is, is . this time, the bigger question, though, is, is. uh, i think we've just had , uh, tobias we've just had, uh, tobias ellwood from in there. >> let's bring nigel nelson back into the conversation while we try and get, um, tobias linked back up. this is, unfortunately, the peril of speaking to somebody at the munich security conference. indeed. yeah. i mean, i can't quite understand how it's now carte blanche for protesters to just descend on the home of mps. it's not just tobias ellwood . we've seen this tobias ellwood. we've seen this happen to wes streeting. we've had now mp for

had mike freer, now the mp for golders green, announced that he's step down. the he's got to step down. the threats him too much. threats to him are too much. i had suella braverman in this chair couple of weeks ago chair a couple of weeks ago telling that she has to telling me that she has had to hold her taxpayer funded hold on to her taxpayer funded bodyguards, that she while bodyguards, that she had while she secretary. normally she was home secretary. normally you keep them, you go off you don't keep them, you go off back normal back into your normal constituency and you don't constituency life and you don't need that protection, she does because she keeps on receiving death mean, in my death threats. i mean, in my mind , it's extraordinary that mind, it's extraordinary that the police have to tell an mp he can't go back to his home. yes, it is extraordinary. >> and bear in mind rishi sunak also had his home attacked. um no, not acceptable. i mean, no, it's not acceptable. i mean, certainly outside certainly protests outside parliament. that's the place for them. >> f we've f— f we've got tobias them. >> sorryne've got tobias them. >> sorry to ve got tobias them. >> sorry to interrupt.»ias them. >> sorry to interrupt. nigel. back. sorry to interrupt. nigel. tobias hear me tobias hopefully you can hear me again. we just lost that again. sorry. we just lost that link. look, we've dealt with this issue with the police. let's the munich let's talk about the munich security conference you're attending the reaction , attending now. um, the reaction, quite understandably, really , to quite understandably, really, to alexei navalny's death has been that of shock and horror. we've heard the foreign secretary, david cameron , talk about david cameron, talk about consequences the russian consequences for the russian

president. consequences president. what consequences would like to see? would you like to see? >> well, we simply just need to recognise how contested , how recognise how contested, how fragmented our world is becoming and what president putin is doing is a great example of that, of crushing , uh, that, of crushing, uh, opposition of any criticism in his own country. but the wider intentions of what he wants to do, not just in ukraine, but beyond . and the big debate here beyond. and the big debate here is how do we then manage that? a world that's becoming ever more contested, fragmented ? what contested, more fragmented? what is the west doing about it? and the trump was here the shadow of trump was here really was , uh, quite uh uh, you really was, uh, quite uh uh, you know , i think a test of the west know, i think a test of the west indeed the american senators that were all here because of course, they're tying in their support for ukraine with domestic issues to do with the mexican border . and people in mexican border. and people in europe here just simply don't get that. if we don't provide ukraine the necessary assets, the military equipment that they need to actually take back their territory, then putin will not stop there. we need to make that clear that europe is at war,

right now, and it will continue and gets worse unless we put this fire out. i mean, i understand, tobias, that you wouldn't trump wouldn't be agreeing with trump when to obviously, this when it comes to obviously, this $9 billion aid package, which the are blocking the republicans are blocking going to ukraine. >> but same time, you >> but at the same time, you must with him when he calls must side with him when he calls for all of these nato countries to honour this 2% of defence spending. we've heard keir starmer sunday telegraph starmer in the sunday telegraph sort on that and sort of question on that and say, you know, he's being say, you know, that he's being divisive the rest it, divisive and all the rest of it, but come on, i mean, these countries have step the countries have to step up the cash, don't they? >> they do indeed. but you don't do with your allies by do that with your allies by telling putin to invade a nato ally. that is not the way forward. and don't forget also that, um, you know , trump, that, um, you know, trump, whilst he was president, actually threatened to pull out of nato and then pivot to china, that america must understand and that america must understand and that if europe goes back into any form of conflict , larger any form of conflict, larger conflict beyond ukraine, it will have a knock on economic consequence to america as well , consequence to america as well, and cost us more in the long

terme as well. that's why we need to get this right. that's why we need to focus on supporting ukraine and, you know, their british know, for their own british defence well. isn't defence budget as well. it isn't just ukraine. we see the middle east as well. there are complexity of we've complexity of issues. we've entered era of insecurity. entered a new era of insecurity. we still on a peacetime we are still on a peacetime budget and we know that our army, our air force and our navy aren't currently overstretched . aren't currently overstretched. so some big questions for britain well. britain as well. >> let's bring it back to domestic matters. i've got jeff on panelin on my people's panel in nottinghamshire he's nottinghamshire today. he's a former military, um, gentleman . former military, um, gentleman. and he's basically talking about the number of homeless veterans, 7000, he claims many of whom are deaung 7000, he claims many of whom are dealing with ptsd . he says why dealing with ptsd. he says why aren't the government doing more to help them ? to help them? >> well, there are many programs to support those. there's the armed forces covenant, which actually obliges all councils up and down the country to make sure that those who have served their country with pride are then given the necessary support they need, particularly if they've got mental health challenges such as ptsd . so i'm

challenges such as ptsd. so i'm sure if we get those details of where the, uh, your panel were referencing, uh, either myself or certainly , um, uh, you've got or certainly, um, uh, you've got johnny mercer, who's been so focussed on this, so dedicated on this, on making sure that we get the money through to the front line to support our valiant veterans. >> okay, some interesting polling in the sunday telegraph today suggesting that 70, tobias of tory voters think it was wrong to ditch boris johnson . wrong to ditch boris johnson. >> well, we've moved on from that. he's not even an mp there. so it's actually a bit of a distraction as to where we need to go. general election is only months away. what are they suggesting? that somehow he then, you know, somebody gives up their seat, he comes back in. my up their seat, he comes back in. my goodness, how disturbing that would be for the conservative party to then have another turn of the wheel, another another selection process, really . i selection process, really. i think we need to recognise where we know why he departed. you know had to go in the know why he had to go in the manner that he did. we now have

a prime minister. let's back the current prime minister. >> but but >> okay, but but but unfortunately, country unfortunately, the country doesn't be backing him. unfortunately, the country doehasn't be backing him. unfortunately, the country doehasn't pushede backing him. unfortunately, the country doehasn't pushed the acking him. unfortunately, the country doehasn't pushed the dialg him. unfortunately, the country doehasn't pushed the dial any�*n. he hasn't pushed the dial any further in his favour further forward in his favour since point since announcing his five point plan. plan doesn't seem to plan. the plan doesn't seem to be working. mean, you're very be working. i mean, you're very much tory. talk much a centrist tory. you talk about importance of the about the importance of the broad that broad church. how's that congregation because the congregation going? because the last checked, you've lost last time i checked, you've lost two by elections and you're 20 points behind in the poll. >> and that's simply >> yeah, and that's simply because we're not getting the air for people like you to air time for people like you to scrutinise labour are scrutinise what labour are doing, because we're spending the a buzzing the whole time having a buzzing with other on the with each other on the telegraph. you go back, if i may, joe, go back to the, you know, the centre ground, the centre in british centre ground in british politics, the floating voter. that's win elections that's how you win elections when onto the when you go to extremes onto the right the left, you will right or to the left, you will not the general election. not win the general election. uh, corbyn proved that uh, jeremy corbyn proved that when was leader and what we when he was leader and what we need to do is recognise the big grandees. we've had this conversation the big conversation before, the big grandees, beasts who grandees, the big beasts who have have gone grandees, the big beasts who havthe have gone grandees, the big beasts who havthe centre have gone grandees, the big beasts who havthe centre ground.ave gone grandees, the big beasts who havthe centre ground. that's1e for the centre ground. that's where winning getting where the winning are getting should be. >> you're getting killed on the

right, tobias. at the of the right, tobias. at the end of the day, mike, the tories have to entertain a with nigel day, mike, the tories have to entertaand with nigel day, mike, the tories have to enterta and reform igel day, mike, the tories have to enterta and reform party. farage and the reform party. >> okay, so that takes you even further to the extreme gifting that to labour, to the that space to labour, to the centre, ground to labour. and then actually then then they will actually then win. a you know, a false win. this is a you know, a false strategy. it really , really is. strategy. it really, really is. >> right tobias ellwood , >> all right tobias ellwood, thank very much indeed for thank you very much indeed for joining munich. lovely joining me from munich. lovely to this morning. to speak to you this morning. lots to come. in the next lots more to come. in the next houn lots more to come. in the next hour. i'm going to be joined by the minister of for the minister of state for illegal migration, michael tomlinson. i'll also be speaking to the shadow minister, nick thomas—symonds. to the shadow minister, nick thomiof-symonds. to the shadow minister, nick thomiof-syn rise s. to the shadow minister, nick thomiof-synrise s. reform? make of the rise of reform? don't go anywhere .

welcome back. much more to come in the next hour. we've got the minister of state for illegal migration, michael tomlinson, and i'll be speaking to the shadow minister, nick thomas—symonds , a labour on a

thomas—symonds, a labour on a path to downing street victory following this week by—election results. here's the results. but first, here's the news with sophia wenzler . thanks camilla. >> it's 10:00. camilla. >> it's10:00. i'm sophia wenzler in the gb news room. your top story this hour. the white house has blamed inaction by republicans in the us congress for russia's capture of ukrainian city kyiv has ordered the withdrawal of troops from the withdrawal of troops from the eastern city of avdiivka early yesterday, giving moscow its first major gain since the fall of bakhmut last year. us president joe biden warned last week that a shortage of ammunition in ukraine could see the city fall into russian hands as he pushed republicans to urgently pass more military aid. russian president vladimir putin praised the city's capture, calling it an important victory for our senior military intelligence officer philip ingram told gb news. ukraine needs more support , loss of

needs more support, loss of avdiivka is significant. >> um , the ukrainians have been >> um, the ukrainians have been holding on to that since 2014. um and fighting the russians. but they've made the sensible military decision not to sacrifice any more of their troops to keep this completely decimated piece of territory. um, the russians are making some advances from a one dimensional perspective on the frontline. but but these advances are are tiny at the moment, and it's purely because russia has got more ammunition from north korea and from iran. um, and the ukrainians are suffering a shortage of ammunition coming from the west more than 400 people have been detained at an event across 32 russian cities since the death of alexei navalny on friday. >> it's the biggest wave of political unrest since september 2022, when more than 1300 were arrested for protesting against forced military service . part of forced military service. part of president putin's effort to cover heavy casualties endured in ukraine. russian state media,

which is controlled by the government, has made no mention of the arrests or the many memorial services for mr navalny. meanwhile while authorities have been accused of doing everything they can to avoid handing over mr navalny's body to his family , see the 69 body to his family, see the 69 year old mother of vladimir putin's most vocal critic visited the remote penal colony where he died yesterday. where temperatures were —30 degrees, she says she was told his body had been taken to a nearby morgue. but when she arrived there, she found it closed. mr navalny's spokespeople claim his death was orchestrated murder by the russian president . that's the russian president. that's been rejected by the kremlin . been rejected by the kremlin. and ukrainian refugees will be offered an 18 month visa extension to stay in the uk. it means ukrainians who had to flee their home after russia's invasion in 2022 will be able to stay in britain until at least september 2026. the first visas, which granted ukrainian people

sanctuary in the uk , are set to sanctuary in the uk, are set to expire in march 2025. more than 283,000 ukrainians have been offered an extended sanctuary since the beginning of the invasion on the 24th of february, 2022, for the latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. com slash alerts. now it's back to . camilla. to. camilla. >> thanks for that, sofia. we've got a lot to come in the next 60 minutes, so let's just run through who we've got coming up. in just a minute. i'm going to be joined by shadow minister nick thomas—symonds. i'll be asking the by—election asking him what the by—election results labour. results mean for labour. i'll also speaking the minister also be speaking to the minister of illegal migration, of state for illegal migration, michael tomlinson. man michael tomlinson. he's the man charged the boats. charged with stopping the boats. i to know what his plan i want to know what his plan actually is, not least because reportedly he criticised the rwanda plan before taking up his current ministerial position .

current ministerial position. i'm also going to be joined by sir andrew the former sir andrew wood, the former british ambassador to russia, who tell what part putin who will tell us what part putin had play in the death of his had to play in the death of his political alexei political opponent, alexei navalny, week . former navalny, this week. former scotland deputy assistant scotland yard deputy assistant commissioner david murray gilbertson will be sharing his thoughts on the state of the british police and he'll have some home truths to share from his the force. and we're his time on the force. and we're going be the verdict going to be getting the verdict live our people's panel in live from our people's panel in nottingham . but of all, nottingham. but first of all, let's speak to shadow let's now speak to shadow minister portfolio . nick minister without portfolio. nick thomas—symonds, the labour mp for torfaen. nice to see you , for torfaen. nice to see you, nick. thank you very much for joining me this morning. we're going to you to have going to allow you to have a good old crow about the by—election results in just a minute. but can we just look forward rochdale next forward again to rochdale next week dragged week because you were dragged down airwaves to defend down to the airwaves to defend as our ally week. and i'm as our ally last week. and i'm wondering whether you regret that now , considering we that now, considering what we now mean, i can't really now know. i mean, i can't really understand you understand why you felt you could defend when he had could defend him when he had said indefensible about said the indefensible about israel, do regret it ? >> well, 7— >> well, look, 7_ >> well, look, i ? >> well, look, i couldn't have and didn't know what

subsequently came out later that day, but wasn't what he said enough to condemn him ? well, enough to condemn him? well, what he said was appalling, and i made that absolutely clear when i was speaking about this on monday . when i was speaking about this on monday. but what i, i and we had listened to him hugely respected, prominent people in the jewish community who spoke about the history that that candidate, former candidate, now had had in actually standing beside people again against anti—semitic attacks . and it anti—semitic attacks. and it also given what appeared to be a genuine apology and a recognition of rebuilding bridges. but the assessment that we were given that this was out of character as soon as it became clear that there was another incident, this was an out of character, then clearly the very difficult decision had to be taken . and i say to be taken. and i say difficult. camilla because it's a huge decision to have a by—election with no supported

labour candidate, which is what we have. but >> well, i know, but you didn't do your due diligence on vetting him, did you ? i mean, most him, did you? i mean, most people saw the situ in this situation last week i spoke to pat mcfadden, a colleague of yours. you know, he's a very straight talking, sort of no nonsense type of politician. he's there defending this guy. everyone watching and everyone else is watching and listening program, listening to the program, thinking, he thinking, how could you even he should been sacked should have been sacked immediately. he basically immediately. he was basically peddung immediately. he was basically peddling sort of conspiracy theories that the israelis brought the october 7 attack on themselves. so that they could attack gaza. i mean, it's the stuff of sort of twitter lunacy . stuff of sort of twitter lunacy. >> it's appalling. and i and i made that clear, as did pat mcfadden. uh, last week, it was the point that we were told this this was something that that was out of character. as soon as it became clear there was another incident, the decision had to be taken. but camilla, this was a decision taken over 48 hours. we're talking about a matter of hours here that decision has firmly been taken and there is

no doubt that there is a real change that's been led by keir starmer dealing with anti—semitism in the labour party . and it's not just taking party. and it's not just taking my word for it. that's what the ehrc has said. by taking the labour party out of special measures last year, in recognition of the changes keir starmer has made to our systems. >> although you're not all singing from the same hymn sheet, are you? because we understand that the snp has tabled a motion calling for a ceasefire they want to call for a second vote in the house of commons. on one hand, we've got keir starmer resisting that and on the other we now have scottish labour saying that they support the motion . they think support the motion. they think it's reasonable . so it's perfectly reasonable. so actually is split on a actually labour is split on a ceasefire . ceasefire. >> we're completely united about seeing an end to the fighting. >> but you're not united on a ceasefire, are you ? ceasefire, are you? >> well, we all want to get to a ceasefire. what we are saying, will you vote for one then has

been, well, look, we will need to look at the wording of the motion that is actually laid before parliament to have you not seen the motion? >> it's already out. >> it's already out. >> well, we need to see what the laid motion is. you see various things going around on social media. let's see it formally laid down actually. what the final is. me just final wording is. let me just explain that the position that we take on this, because we all want to see an end to the fighting , but we want to build fighting, but we want to build a society winnable ceasefire that is going to last. and what that means is an end to the fighting on both sides. so rockets coming out of gaza as well as going into gaza , it means releasing into gaza, it means releasing the hostages. absolutely vital. it means getting that humanitarian aid into gaza that is desperately needed. but it also means trying to put steps into place to move towards a two state solution , which the state solution, which the international community has put international community has put in the too difficult box for too

long. these are the steps that we actually need to take to get to that sustainable ceasefire. >> okay? i mean, you used to be a former shadow home secretary, so you'll have an insight into sir keir starmer's thinking when it comes to talking about our own national security . he what's own national security. he what's he saying? however when he's at the munich security conference yesterday, talking out about standing up for allies in nato. okay, that speaks for itself. but then warning against divide and threatening behaviour is he referring to donald trump? there i mean, does he not agree with donald trump that our european neighbours should be honouring their 2% defence spending commitments ? commitments? >> well, look, certainly people need to be honouring their defence commitments. but i agree with what the nato secretary—general has said about this. and indeed, uh, keir has said around the idea of uh, inviting or pressing russia to, to attack nato allies that that clearly isn't in line with, with article five and anything that

undermines article five, the idea that we all stand together is, is obviously not helpful. but at the same time, camilla, i would say that it is a matter for the american people who they choose to elect as their president. in november. whoever is elected as the president. uh, if there is to be a labour government and we are privileged to serve, we will work with whoever that president is because, frankly, the special relationship with the united states is between people. it doesn't depend upon who the president and prime minister is at any given time. >> what do you think of donald trump ? trump? >> uh, i think that's for the american people to everyone can have an opinion. >> what's your opinion? >> what's your opinion? >> well, i, i don't i on that particular issue, uh , that particular issue, uh, that you've asked me around about nato , i've said uh, that i think nato, i've said uh, that i think trying to undermine the alliance is the wrong thing to do. broadly speaking, it's a matter

for the american people what their view is. for the american people what their view is . it's for them. their view is. it's for them. >> no, but you must have a view. you might need to be working up close and personal with president trump and his administration. so what do you think of him as a world leader? well look, our sister party is obviously the democrat , so but obviously the democrat, so but let me just say i was actually in washington. >> uh, camilla back last year was back in washington in july. what i've always done what david lammy always does, what keir starmer always does is you meet people on both sides of the political divide. i was in congress, for example, last july. i was speaking to democrats . i was speaking, uh, democrats. i was speaking, uh, to republicans as well . and what to republicans as well. and what i always say to them, i've said it directly to them by the way, not just on your show, whoever they choose to select as their presidential candidate and whoever becomes the president is a matter for them . of course, a matter for them. of course, you can have historical debates about who have been good presidents , bad presidents, and presidents, bad presidents, and all the rest of it, but that's

for the future. what we have to focus on here is the national interest national interest and the national interest and the national interest working with interest is in working with whoever the american president is after, you know. well, it'll be january, of course, of this to be a new president. >> well, on the national interest, uh, keir starmer is recorded a shiny new video this morning in which he talks about defence and security being labour's number one priority. but it's not the number one priority of labour voters. is it? according to ipsos mori , it? according to ipsos mori, more important to labour voters are the following topics health, inflation, an economy, education, urban housing. so why is something labour's number one priority that isn't actually labour voters number one priority? well, because all the things that you've just described can only be achieved if fundamentally you are keeping the country safe . the country safe. >> so it's if you like what you do as the bedrock upon which all those other things are built .

those other things are built. so, you know, keeping the country safe is always the government's number one priority has to be a government's number one priority. and that gives you then the secure city. you have to build economic stability upon that, which of course, this government has noticeably failed to do in recent years that that then, is the stability that allows you to grow the economy to give people the public services that they rightly demand . demand. >> some of the coverage of the by—election results are quite interesting this morning. i mean, it's not sort of undiluted praise for sir keir starmer. um, we've got david blunkett writing in the mail on sunday, warning the labour leader not to be complacent. we've got a two page spread in the observer here, which, let's face it, is no fan of the tory party again saying that labour mustn't be complacent. it's not quite the victory that you're making out, is it? because it's not really a ringing endorsement for keir starmer. it's more , uh, a starmer. it's more, uh, a non—endorsement for the tory government, isn't it? it's about

tory voters staying at home, but they're not flocking to you . they're not flocking to you. >> well, i think in by elections , i mean the two turnouts here are about 37. i think in kingswood, 38% in wellingborough. but when you see lower turnout, it tends to have been across all areas of voters. so i don't think it's fair to assume that exclusively all the voters who stayed at home, conservative, because the evidence wouldn't suggest that's the case. but these so you're saying labour voters also stayed at home? >> hardly a ringing >> that's hardly a ringing endorsement of starmer, it? endorsement of starmer, is it? >> no, this is >> well, no, no, this this is just been the tradition of by elections a number of elections for, uh, a number of decades now. >> 37 tony blair got people out, didn't he ? didn't he? >> uh, no. well, if you look at turnout in by elections , it was, turnout in by elections, it was, uh, lower than in general elections. and interestingly, you're talking about tony blair, 1995, 96, 97. the point that you've just put to me about it being a verdict on the government, but not enthusiast about labour, was said at the at the same time in the 1990s. it's not an uncommon argument that's

been put, but let me just say this. i was out in kingswood and that was the place i went. there. i visited three times in the last seven days of the campaign . and the candidate campaign. and the candidate there, damian egan. now, of course, the member of parliament was campaigning very strongly on our positive offer on the national health service around things like the 2 million new appointments 700,000 urgent dental appointments doubling the number of scanners that positive offer was going down extremely well on the doorstep. so that was very, very important to our campaigns . was very, very important to our campaigns. but it's also the case that people will only put their trust in you if they trust you with the economy and they trust you with the topic we were discussing a moment or two ago, national security, and they are very significant changes. and that's across the elections that's why across the elections we've seen such large swings . i we've seen such large swings. i think it over 16% in think it was over 16% in kingswood and over 28% in wellingborough. they huge wellingborough. they are huge swings. uh, to have swings. historically uh, to have in by elections to the party. >> nick thomas—symonds we need

to leave it there. but thank you very much indeed forjoining me this morning. thank you. now, as we the rochdale we referenced the rochdale labour candidate as labour by—election candidate as are ali. are the other are ali. here are the other listed candidates for the upcoming by—election. i'm going listed candidates for the upwhiz1g by—election. i'm going listed candidates for the upwhiz through.ection. i'm going listed candidates for the upwhiz through them. i'm going listed candidates for the upwhiz through them very going to whiz through them very quickly. well, azhar was quickly. well, azhar ali was labour party now independent. labour party is now independent. mark the independent. mark coleman is the independent. simon remember him. he's simon danczuk remember him. he's for reform uk. donaldson is for reform uk. iain donaldson is the democrat. paul the liberal democrat. paul ellison is the conservative. george again a blast george galloway again a blast from past. workers party of from the past. workers party of britain michael howarth, independent howarth, independent william howarth, independent. green independent. guy otten, green party rodent subordinate party raven rodent subordinate official monster raving loony and david tully , the and david tully, the independent. now don't move a muscle because in just a minute, sir andrew wood will join me and i'll be grilling michael tomlinson, the minister , the tomlinson, the minister, the minister state for illegal minister of state for illegal migration, which i know is important to you. you'll want to hear the answers to my questions to that. so don't go anywhere. stay tuned

radio.

>> welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. i'm delighted to be joined now by sir andrew wood, former british ambassador to russia from 1995 to 2000. and you've said i can call you andrew, so we'll drop the sir and be familiar. andrew lovely to speak to you this morning. now now, alexei navalny's family have to navalny's family have reacted to his saying it's his death by saying it's orchestrated murder . would you orchestrated murder. would you agree with that analysis ? agree with that analysis? >> yes. and it's not the first time, and it won't be the last. i know when you were in office, you met putin a couple of times. >> tell us what he's actually like . like. >> well, at the time, he was, um , we were talking about the possibility of his meeting with with tony blair and more . uh, with tony blair and more. uh, immediately, the way that the war in chechnya was then going , war in chechnya was then going, which is an extremely brutal war on the part of the russians. but

it was also one which, um , it was also one which, um, attracted support for him as a future president . i didn't future president. i didn't myself , uh, get a future president. i didn't myself, uh, get a judgement as to whether he's a good man or a bad man, but , to whether he's a good man or a bad man, but, um, we would see. >> yes , the jury was out at that >> yes, the jury was out at that point, but now, 25 years on from having first met him as prime minister to now , i mean, what's minister to now, i mean, what's your assessment of where he is at in the sense not only in the context of ukraine, but obviously now the sudden death of navalny, you could say that that was inevitable , always that was inevitable, always going to happen. however it does sort of move the dial really on. isuppose sort of move the dial really on. i suppose the degree to which he isn't willing to stop, he is not willing to stop. >> and in my eyes, he's defined himself as essentially a traitor to russian interests , as russia to russian interests, as russia itself and the russian people

aren't habitual killers. and uh , aren't habitual killers. and uh, persuaded that the whole purpose of their life is to , again, an of their life is to, again, an attack others . but the fact is attack others. but the fact is that he himself is stimulated by my fear as being the right policy to introduce to other people . and he also himself, people. and he also himself, i think , suffers from fear because think, suffers from fear because he's locked himself into a particularly vicious case. uh a set of policies and rather futile ones to i mean, you obviously got to know the russian population very , very russian population very, very well in your time there . well in your time there. >> um, we've heard from navalny's widow, yulia, saying that she wants to continue his work. we've obviously seen protesters come out in support of navalny on the streets of moscow . uh, there's been moscow. uh, there's been hundreds of arrests . what hundreds of arrests. what likelihood is there of there

being an uprising among the russian people? in response to this death ? this death? >> in direct response to his death? i do not think there is going to be such a reaction . it going to be such a reaction. it does touch , uh, on the proper does touch, uh, on the proper feelings of a large numbers of russians , but at the same time , russians, but at the same time, as i said earlier, this is not the first person he's killed. my a very good friend, sophie, was killed outside the kremlin and so on and so forth . they know so on and so forth. they know that this is the way he acts and they also, um , are stuck with they also, um, are stuck with they also, um, are stuck with the immediate difficulty of how to react in the context of the war against ukraine, plus the fact is that there's no one else to replace him. >> are you worried about the prospect of a second trump presidency? ac in light of his relationship with russia ? relationship with russia? >> uh, well, i'm not a fan of

his. so the answer is yes , but his. so the answer is yes, but he's a changeable sort of person . and, um , he has also, in his . and, um, he has also, in his previous presidency, done some quite brave things. and good things in the context that he was, was in. so i think you just can't you can't tell . can't you can't tell. >> and when the foreign secretary, david cameron, talks about consequences for russia, look, we know that there have been sanctions. we know that russian assets have been seized. doesit russian assets have been seized. does it actually make any difference to putin? i mean, what consequences can there possibly be for the russian president in your mind? i don't think direct consequences , but think direct consequences, but the fact that he's losing a grip on, uh, public opinion in other countries abroad is important . countries abroad is important. >> the fact that he is doing his best to, uh , hide what has best to, uh, hide what has happened to , um, navalny and the happened to, um, navalny and the way it has happened in russia itself is indicative of he's

trying to put it as as something which happened wasn't his fault because nothing ever is. and he hoped, will hope it would simply disappear , as in terms of the disappear, as in terms of the russian electorate. and that might be right. he is bound to win when it comes to later this yearin win when it comes to later this year in march. um, because the system is so, so constructed . system is so, so constructed. >> i mean, it's interesting, isn't it? the timing of navalny's death. and as you say, these forthcoming elections, which i think we can suggest now, fairly plainly, aren't going to be free and fair. another question for you as a former ambassador , uh, andrew, i former ambassador, uh, andrew, i mean, where do you think when it when it comes to looking at the western world, the biggest threat is coming from is it russia? is it china? is it iran? what's your assessment of the state of things at the moment ? state of things at the moment? >> well, the immediate , uh, >> well, the immediate, uh, trigger is more likely , i think, trigger is more likely, i think, to be, uh , iran or the, the, the

to be, uh, iran or the, the, the general chaos that's going on on their because we've got rather used to what's going on in, in ukraine. i think we are being a little bit too, uh, gloomy about it because we concentrate on, on physical borders in ukraine. we haven't looked , uh, sufficiently haven't looked, uh, sufficiently , for example, at the enormous success ukraine has had in deaung success ukraine has had in dealing with the russian navy . dealing with the russian navy. um, and that would be a long, a long war and a very threatening one for all of all of us, indeed. >> so thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning. sir forjoining me this morning. sir andrew wood, former ambassador to russia from 1995 to 2000. well, coming up next, i'm going to be grilling michael tomlinson , minister of state for , the minister of state for illegal migration, on the government's failure to stop the boats. stay tuned

radio. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. don't forget that very shortly. i'm going to be joined by that former top cop, david murray gilbertson, to discuss the increasingly dire state of british why the british policing and why the force is so bad at rooting out the apples in its ranks. but the bad apples in its ranks. but first of i'm delighted to first of all, i'm delighted to be the minister of be joined now by the minister of state migration, state for illegal migration, michael tomlinson is also the tory mp for mid and north michael tomlinson is also the tory mlovely'iid and north michael tomlinson is also the tory mlovely to and north michael tomlinson is also the tory mlovely to see and north michael tomlinson is also the tory mlovely to see younnd north michael tomlinson is also the tory mlovely to see you thisiorth poole. lovely to see you this morning, mr tomlinson . first of morning, mr tomlinson. first of all, can i ask you about the death of alexei navalny? his family are saying this was orchestrated murder. do you agree with that assessment ? agree with that assessment? >> may i say at the outset that alexei navalny was a courageous politician, somebody who stood up against putin? if you think about if we think that politics is difficult in the west, how much harder was it for alexei navalny to be standing up to putin and obviously my sympathy goes out to his wife and family

and to all the russian people. and i think the foreign secretary has been very clear on this, laying the blame firmly at putin's door. he is absolutely right to do so. and i join him in doing it. >> so orchestrated murder, then ? >> so orchestrated murder, then? >> so orchestrated murder, then? >> i agree with with the foreign secretary that the blame is firmly at putin's door. >> when lord cameron's talked about about consequences for the russian president, what sort of consequences can we expect to see? >> well, we've already seen, for example, since russia's ukraine invasion of ukraine, that there have been 1700 individuals and entities who have been sanctioned. we know that that has had an effect because putin himself has accepted the difficulties that those have presented. clearly that is an opfion presented. clearly that is an option for the foreign secretary to look at, and i'm sure he'll have the time and the space to do that. but more broadly, i think you can see from our support for the people of ukraine, you may have seen

overnight the extension of the visa scheme for our ukrainian friends who here friends who are over here seeking shelter and refuge in the united kingdom . they now the united kingdom. they now have the security and knowledge that they can be in the united kingdom a further 18 months. kingdom for a further 18 months. it important to give them it was important to give them that certainty , and i think our that certainty, and i think our broader support ukraine has broader support for ukraine has been none. let's ask been second to none. let's ask you about your brief. >> as the minister for illegal migration, i was quite surprised in week to see a graph by in the week to see a graph by the oxford migration observatory suggesting that only 1.3% of those who have come here by boat illegally since 2018 have actually been removed from the country. that suggests that your policy on stopping illegal immigration has failed, and it's failed badly. we >> well, let's let's look at that last year, boat crossings were down by 36. 16,000 fewer people got in and made those dangerous crossings coming over. of course, there is more to do . of course, there is more to do. i was in france 48 hours ago, seeing the work that was going

on with our french counterparts , on with our french counterparts, our french allies, in this, and it's a joint mission. our french allies, in this, and it's a joint mission . it is a it's a joint mission. it is a joint endeavour stopping the boats between the french and the united kingdom to only remove 1.3% of united kingdom to only remove 13% of those coming here 1.3% of those coming here illegally . illegally. >> that is woeful, 1.3. what message is that sending out to the people smugglers and indeed the people smugglers and indeed the people smugglers and indeed the people getting into barely inflatable dinghies ? it's inflatable dinghies? it's basically saying that almost 100% of you are going to end up being able to stay in the uk. camilla i accept that there's more that needs to be done. >> you mentioned the flimsiness of the dinghy since the very first day in my office, i've been making the moral case for our rwanda scheme. there have been it, many been many critics of it, many people that it wouldn't people saying that it wouldn't work it's good work or that it's not good enough. we have a moral imperative make sure that we imperative to make sure that we don't people, get on don't get people, don't get on those boats. for the last three months, fatalities months, we have seen fatalities in channel. these people in the channel. these people smugglers not care if you're

smugglers do not care if you're going to live or if you're going to die. they care about the bottom line. they care about profit. that's why the rwanda scheme is so important. and we profit. that's why the rwanda schethatis so important. and we profit. that's why the rwanda schethat backimportant. and we profit. that's why the rwanda schethat back inportant. and we profit. that's why the rwanda schethat back in the ant. and we profit. that's why the rwanda schethat back in the house d we profit. that's why the rwanda schethat back in the house ofrve see that back in the house of lords we need to get lords tomorrow. we need to get that book. i'm that on the statute book. i'm sure see some sure you'll see some parliamentary ping pong between the house of lords and the house of commons, amendments of commons, when amendments are inevitably, i know, but only remove inevitably, i know, but only renmrz inevitably, i know, but only ren mr tomlinson, 1.3. >> mr tomlinson,1.3. >> mr tomlinson,1.3. >> what i'm camila, i'm telling you about what we're doing to increase that because we need to get these planes off the ground. i'm hearing that message loud and clear . i'm hearing that message loud and clear. but in order to do that and in direct response to the supreme court judgements of the supreme court judgements of the 15th of november, we need we need to get the treaty in place. that was signed on the 5th of december. we need to the december. we need to get the treaty ratified. need to get treaty ratified. we need to get this house of this bill through the house of commons house of lords, commons and the house of lords, and we need to get those planes off and that's off the ground. and that's my mission. can you clear something up for us? >> em— >> because the telegraph had reported were reported that when you were solicitor general, you advised that ignoring strasbourg injunctions flights injunctions to block flights would of echr. so

would be in breach of echr. so do this do you actually think this rwanda legal ? rwanda policy is legal? >> expect me to >> you wouldn't expect me to comment on legal advice , but comment on legal advice, but what you would expect me to do is to say what i will do as minister and what the prime minister has said he will do. the prime minister has been very clear he will not a clear that he will not let a foreign our rwanda foreign court block our rwanda plan. clear that the plan. i'm very clear that the legislation in clause five, it's there in the statute when we get it the statute books, says it onto the statute books, says that for a minister to that it's for a minister to decide that is fundamental. that's why we need the law to be on the statute book and when that is on statute book, that law is on the statute book, that's decisions will be that's when decisions will be made. the planes get made. and the planes will get off ground. off the ground. >> but the disastrous >> but aren't the disastrous by—election results the by—election results for the tories reflecting the fact tories reflecting of the fact that at the that the public looks at the five plan and has decided five point plan and has decided it's not working. you know, the plan on the economy isn't working. into recession. working. we went into recession. the on stopping the boats the plan on stopping the boats isn't you isn't working because you haven't them. we now haven't stopped them. and we now find you've only find out that you've only removed 13% of those who came find out that you've only remolegally6 of those who came find out that you've only remolegally . of those who came find out that you've only remolegally . so, hose who came find out that you've only remolegally . so, iose who came find out that you've only remolegally . so, i mean,o came find out that you've only remolegally . so, i mean, you �*ne here legally. so, i mean, you are in dire, dire trouble. the plan is not working, mr

tomlinson can well, camilla, plan is not working, mr tomlinson can well , camilla, let tomlinson can well, camilla, let me take those in tone. >> you've mentioned three things in to the by—election. in relation to the by—election. there is no doubt that the by—election was set against a very difficult backdrop. one message that i have received from the by—election, loud and clear, is that if you vote for reform, you get labour, you go back one with labour. back to square one with labour. so maybe you have to do a deal with reform. >> then mr tomlinson. >> then mr tomlinson. >> no , the vote, the message is >> no, the vote, the message is loud and clear. a vote for reform is going back to square one and you get labour. so that's the first thing you mentioned. the second thing you mentioned. the second thing you mentioned the economy in mentioned was the economy in relation economy. we have mentioned was the economy in relatithe economy. we have mentioned was the economy in relatithe prime economy. we have mentioned was the economy in relatithe prime minister'sve have mentioned was the economy in relatithe prime minister's topiave seen the prime minister's top priority was to halve inflation. an inflation was at 11.1. don't forget, i'm sure you'll remember it was 11.1. it's now down at 4. we need to see growth improving one of the biggest blocks to the other thing. that's inflation. thatis other thing. that's inflation. that is the other thing that's down. >> mr tomlinson, is our living standards. i mean, maybe some people actually look on the last 14 years and say we wouldn't

mind going back to square one because no better because we're in no better position 14 years on. position now. 14 years on. >> no, that's not right . if you >> no, that's not right. if you look at the forecasters, if you look at the forecasters, if you look at the imf that says forecasts that we are going to grow as an economy faster than france, faster than germany, faster than italy, faster than japan. if you look at the oecd, if you look at the bank of england and the obr, they all say that there will be growth and that is coming . we need to and that is coming. we need to stick to the plan. but the final piece of the jigsaw, you mentioned was firmly in my brief. the prime brief. that was the prime minister's plan and is the prime minister's plan and is the prime minister's plan and is the prime minister's plan the minister's plan to stop the boats that that is something that's been given me. the that's been given to me. the prime minister has given that to me to deal with. was in france me to deal with. i was in france 48 hours that our 48 hours ago. that is our mission and very clear that mission and i'm very clear that we must. will we absolutely must. and will stop boats. we absolutely must. and will st0|okay boats. we absolutely must. and will st0|okay .oats. we absolutely must. and will st0|okay . mrs. we absolutely must. and will st0|okay . mr tomlinson, thank you >> okay. mr tomlinson, thank you very for joining >> okay. mr tomlinson, thank you very forjoining me very much indeed forjoining me this . coming up next, this morning. coming up next, we're going to be getting the reaction live from our people's panelin reaction live from our people's panel in nottingham very intrigued what they made, intrigued to see what they made, particularly that interview.

particularly of that interview. don't anywhere

listening to gb news radio. >> welcome back. i'll be speaking to that former scotland yard top cop in just a moment about what's gone wrong with the police. but first of all, let's go to nottingham and find go back to nottingham and find out from will what the people's panellists made my panellists have made of my interviews . interviews today. >> camilla, a fantastic programme as always. we haven't stopped speaking about it this morning in nottingham. michael mckeever, you're a retired headteacher. lots to go off but what did you take away from what you heard today on camilla's programme ? programme? >> very disappointed to listen again politicians not again to politicians not answering questions. first of all. also ipso to think on a sadder kind of more global scale that talking about gaza and russia . what worries me is the russia. what worries me is the apparent impotence of the west to do anything about it . and at to do anything about it. and at the same time, we've got this immense sadness that the death of alex navalny and i feel sorry

for the russian people. it's kind of an extinction of hope for them. and that's the worrying thing i take away from this morning, michael, looking at the bigger picture . at the bigger picture. >> but here we are in britain, a small island nation. catherine, you're a land lady. you came into this thinking about illegal migration. what did you hear from illegal immigration minister? >> well, nothing really different to what we were expecting. 1.1. 3. we have been returned back. um we need to deal with things . france. that's deal with things. france. that's the only point that we need to deal with. um, everybody's getting over here, so we really, really need to work hard with france to stop the eagle boats. because there's people dying at the end of the day. um, and it's not fair for those that are coming over and we're just housing everybody . and, um, housing everybody. and, um, earlier on, we said about the veterans, we need to consider veterans, we need to consider veterans as well for homes. so let's start looking at the veterans over here for homes more than anything , looking

more than anything, looking after brits by building a better relationship with france . relationship with france. >> jeff, you work with veterans . >> jeff, you work with veterans. you're a veteran yourself, but you're supporter. you're also a labour supporter. we've shadow minister on we've had the shadow minister on today. what do you think of labour? well are they doing labour? how well are they doing in build up a general in the build up to a general election? they've had big election? they've had two big by—election last by—election wins in the last week. >> i think they're doing a fantastic job. uh having sir fantastic job. uh having met sir keir . uh, great guy , keir personally. uh, great guy, very sincere in what he's doing . very sincere in what he's doing. and i'm sure he will sort anti semitism and everything out and labour will win the next election. uh, our , our local election. uh, our, our local candidate, uh , in bassetlaw. candidate, uh, in bassetlaw. joel councillor jo white is doing very, very well. she's a workaholic. she's always on the streets knocking on doors , streets knocking on doors, getting things done for bassetlaw . bassetlaw. >> and that's in the red wall, bassetlaw , the red wall, bassetlaw, the red wall, nottinghamshire in the midlands went to the conservatives in 2019. but jeff, a labour supporter, is really hopeful that they'll get back in again. but when is that election coming? well, i can guarantee

you camilla, that you one thing, camilla, that we'll here talking about it we'll be here talking about it on the people's panel every sunday when that sunday morning when that election around . election does come around. >> thank you very much. and thank you to all of the people's panellists. don't forget, if you want to have your you can want to have your say, you can email to apply to the email us to apply to the people's panel. it's people's panel .uk couldn't be panel at gb news .uk couldn't be eafien panel at gb news .uk couldn't be easier. now let's on to my easier. now let's go on to my fellow presenter panellist, former secretary and gb former defence secretary and gb news host michael portillo to ask him, michael, what's coming up on the show today? >> uh, good morning and >> uh, camilla, good morning and congratulations on your show. well max, jeffrey has been writing in the spectator. he's just got back from estonia, where nato has been conducting some exercises, some of our allies in nato now are quite worried that they may be the next ones to be attacked by russia. and i'll be hearing how well those exercises have gone, how coordinated nato how well coordinated nato has been , and that debate that we've been, and that debate that we've had about whether the countryside, the countryside is a white preserve and a colonial, i want to go from there to asking a broader question , asking a broader question, really, um, should new arrivals

to britain be people for whom we have to adapt britain , or should have to adapt britain, or should people arrive newly into britain, be adapting to the countries ? that's a fairly broad countries? that's a fairly broad ethical debate. um, as usual, we'll be talking about theatre . we'll be talking about theatre. we've we're going to be reviewing for shows. yesterday i went along to the old vic and saw a theatre production, which is about the live aid event back in, what was it, 1985? bob geldof and all of that, which is a very entertain ing show, not entirely a perfect show, but a pretty entertaining one. and you know that we like to talk about food . someone is going to be food. someone is going to be coming in from italy and bringing in some truffles, and i imagine these truffles have been rooted out by a dog. uh, somewhere in, in italy. and we look forward to finding out what is so important about this exclusive and elusive fungus . exclusive and elusive fungus. >> thank you very much for that, michael. i love that you always get to taste food on your show, which is something we don't do,

but we'll tune in from 11 for all that. forget in all of that. don't forget in just minute i'm going to be just a minute i'm going to be speaking to former scotland yard top gilbertson top cop dave murray gilbertson about state of the police. about the state of the police. but first, here's a quick weather bulletin. >> brighter outlook with boxt >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb solar sponsors of weather on. gb news. good morning and welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast. >> i'm craig snell. we're looking ahead to today. it's certainly going to be the best day of the weekend after any early rain clears the southeast. most us seeing some decent most of us seeing some decent sunshine so can see the area sunshine so we can see the area of across southeast of rain across southeast england. some heavy rain still around, that will clear around, but that will clear towards lunchtime . and then for towards lunchtime. and then for most is a drier and most of us it is a drier and brighter picture. still, the risk of some showers, especially across parts the across more western parts of the country between there country, but in between there will be some decent sunshine, especially the afternoon especially into the afternoon across many eastern parts. and for all it will be another mild day. temperatures in the south reaching 15 or 16 degrees as.

day. temperatures in the south reaching 15 or 16 degrees as . as reaching 15 or 16 degrees as. as we move into sunday evening. for many, we start off relatively dry with some clear skies, but then later on this band of rain reaches northern ireland and scotland that continues to move its way a little bit further eastwards. as we go into small hours on monday, some heavy rain on it, especially as it moves into parts of northwest england, but for all of us it is staying mild. temperatures at lowest, probably around to 6 degrees probably around 5 to 6 degrees in north. so that rain will in the north. so that rain will continue to its way continue to work its way eastwards as move into monday eastwards as we move into monday morning , it starts to weaken morning, it starts to weaken a little bit as it heads towards southeast england, and not a lot of rain left on it here and then behind it. lots of sunshine around, a few showers in places, but i think for most it's going to be a decent until some to be a decent day until some further and rain arrives further cloud and rain arrives later up towards the far northwest scotland . looks northwest of scotland. looks like things are heating up. >> boxt boilers, sponsors of weather on . gb news.

weather on. gb news. >> i'm joined now by retired scotland yard deputy assistant commissioner david murray gilbertson. he's the author of this book, the strange death of constable george dixon, he constable george dixon, and he joins me now to discuss david, the state of the british police. i mean, i know you've said a lot about it in this book. let's just start with something that i raised with tobias ellwood, who you'll know his house you'll know had his house besieged by pro—palestinian protesters last week. what do you make the fact that there you make of the fact that there are no arrests, that the police are no arrests, that the police are allowing these protests to continue? former home continue? i had the former home secretary, braverman, in secretary, suella braverman, in here weeks ago here a couple of weeks ago saying police the saying the police have the powers to stop this. they just don't use them. >> i say throughout my >> it's what i say throughout my book. it's what i've said for years. a function of years. it's a function of absolutely appalling leadership. right you, when you consider that the vast majority of officers on the street these days, male and female , have days, male and female, have probably got less than five years service. the vast majority have just come from school or straight into the police service . yes. they have no experience of life . generally, you can't

of life. generally, you can't expect them to make really quite far reaching decisions on technical issues without leadership, there is no leadership, there is no leadership . leadership. >> i mean, when you say that, are you referring specifically to mark rowley, the head of the met? are you referring in general to management in the police force? >> i'm not referring to mark rowley in in particular at all. i've got a lot of time for him, actually. no i'm talking about the leadership cadre in the in the leadership cadre in the in the police service as a whole. the 43 police forces in england and wales . the 43 police forces in england and wales. um, and we've got a situation where we've got a tremendous amount of really good managers, but not too many leaders. and there's a difference between leadership and management. >> and do you think that's a result of perhaps a more lax approach to recruitment? i mean, back in the day you'd have top cops being university educated, you know , real achievers, real you know, real achievers, real intellectual titans. and at the same time, now , now it seems and same time, now, now it seems and we've seen reports about this. i

know my own paper, the telegraph have reported that the standards have reported that the standards have really dropped for people coming the, the coming into the, the, the standard of recruitment to standard of in recruitment to police, the police service at the moment are absolute. >> they're below rock bottom. >> they're below rock bottom. >> well, what does that mean. >> well, what does that mean. >> i mean you've >> well i mean you've got a situation, instance, in situation, for instance, in 2022, majesty's inspectorate 2022, her majesty's inspectorate did a major review of recruitment. some thing like about 10% of the recruits to the met at that time, at the time of the inspection, were functionally illiterate. what in engush functionally illiterate. what in english function and illiterate. and that was because of the fact that ethnic minority targets were the primary issue for them . were the primary issue for them. and they were they were making allowances to ensure that they could meet those targets . and could meet those targets. and you cannot have a situation where you've got recruits who actually are passing through the system onto the streets, who can't read and write english. no take aside from that, the issue of , again, take aside from that, the issue of, again, the leadership cadre and that's a big issue for me. leadership in in the service,

the graduate entry scheme is in the graduate entry scheme is in the police was abandoned in 2004. complete abandoned. why? and it's been replaced by an alphabet soup of different systems for recruiting to the police service . um which really police service. um which really don't deliver. they do not deliver my big thing about policing and i mean, i was 35 years in the police service. i was proud to be a member of the police. uh, i don't admit to being that now. um, really ? being that now. um, really? >> what, because you're ashamed? >> what, because you're ashamed? >> it disappoints me. i feel ashamed of the way things have gone. >> such a sorry state of affairs. >> it's a sorry state for me. i've got two sons who wouldn't have anything to do with the police service. >> um, when we look at the managerial problems, i mean, on one i think most one hand, i think that most people support the idea of people would support the idea of having a diverse police force, not least because the police have with people all have to deal with people of all different backgrounds have to deal with people of all differeryou ckgrounds have to deal with people of all differeryou know, nds ethnic ethnic, you know, uh, ethnic minorities, black

minorities, white people, black people, asian people, and all the it. so we get that. the rest of it. so we get that. we want see british we want to see the british pubuc we want to see the british public the police public reflected in the police force. but at the same time, do you that there's you think that there's been a bit too much focus on sort of woke policy, as we had suella braverman also accusing the police during the pro—palestinian marches of playing yes. mean, playing favourites? yes. i mean, do that's the case? uh do you think that's the case? uh is the is the management of the police force too left wing? >> don't think that's >> uh, no, i don't think that's the think what the the case. i think what the problem is, go back to it if problem is, i go back to it if you've got, uh, police officers actually the cutting at the actually at the cutting at the cutting edge, who are dealing with demonstrators who the vast majority of them don't actually understand the cultural, the political, the historical issues involved. as i say , they are involved. as i say, they are poorly educated. they are poorly trained. but most of all, they are poorly led. what what the pubuc are poorly led. what what the public at large in this country want is a police service that will protect them and their families from harm . they don't families from harm. they don't want to be their friends. they don't want to know the name of

the local police officer. if there's a if there's an issue and the police, the police have to attend, they want somebody to attend who has the powers to deal with their problem and who can deal with them promptly. they're not getting at the they're not getting that at the moment in many parts of the country. and i, i choose my words very carefully . um, police words very carefully. um, police officers at the cutting edge are are shaven headed , tattooed are shaven headed, tattooed thugs and, uh , it's thugs and, uh, it's disappointing. it's disappointing. it's disappointing really ? yes. disappointing really? yes. really. okay >> okay, so let's take it from a different perspective because the police in their defence, and let's be honest, they're not here to defend themselves. i think they would argue that their and resources are their budgets and resources are being significant the being cut. significant over the course the two decades, course of the last two decades, that they're down numbers. that they're down in numbers. and we don't see that and that's why we don't see that kind visible bobbies on the kind of visible bobbies on the beat that we used back in the day. >> right. bobbies on the beat has been, um, has been a mantra that has been employed for years. haven't been years. there haven't been bobbies on beats for the last

two decades. and it hasn't been because of resources . it's been because of resources. it's been because of resources. it's been because of resources. it's been because of , uh, the need to because of, uh, the need to ensure that the target performance targets are met. uh, and one of the difficulties is if you if you measure the police service on the basis of the bottom line , it's very difficult bottom line, it's very difficult to prove what value a police officer walking down the high street at 3:00 in the morning. does hmm. uh, well, you know , does hmm. uh, well, you know, how many crimes has he committed? i don't know how many crimes he's prevented. >> i know, but then that lack of visibility, i think, seems to give carte blanche do give people carte blanche to do what they and just take what they like and just take rolex, or these people that rolex, this or these people that are shops and just are going into shops and just stealing loads of gear, and nobody's intervening , or people nobody's intervening, or people who are burgling, but burglarising homes stealing burglarising homes and stealing stuff in general. you get your car nicked, your bike nicked, police don't anything. i police don't do anything. i mean, it's created an environment where criminals think well and think they can prosper. well and not sent down. absolutely not be sent down. absolutely >> but what are the public want?

the public want visibility. yeah. and want officers who yeah. and they want officers who can deal with the problems promptly . that isn't happening. promptly. that isn't happening. there no visibility. uh, there is no visibility. uh, there is no, not in any real sense . sense. >> okay, well, let's talk about solutions then, because you've highlighted a number of problems. what happen, problems. what needs to happen, david. right >> it's all as in anything relating to public policy. there are three issues involved. it's funding , it's money. it's the funding, it's money. it's the quality of the leadership . and quality of the leadership. and it's the art of the possible . it's the art of the possible. the art of the possible is always political will. so you've got to have a situation where you have political leaders who are prepared to make a change, who are prepared to do something that's in the gift of the electorate. i don't know in terms of , of, electorate. i don't know in terms of, of, um, in terms of leadership . i do not believe leadership. i do not believe that we have, uh , sufficient that we have, uh, sufficient people either. now now or in the pipeline to meet the challenge. and the thing to do is to look outside the tent. there are

plenty of people in industry, in commerce , in, uh, in the world commerce, in, uh, in the world at large, even abroad . lord, who at large, even abroad. lord, who could lead the police service in this country and lead it? well, i don't as i said just now, we've got lots and lots of good managers. we haven't got too many leaders. yeah. and the last thing is money because the issue around money is not as bad as youokay. so could have more >> okay. so could have more funding, but it's not the key issue. >> it's not the key issue. it's a good it's a good excuse david, thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning. >> i'm going to be back at 930 next michael portillo is next sunday. michael portillo is up to be up next. it's going to be talking about sorts of talking about all sorts of things food. so things and tasting food. so that's and if you missed that's nice. and if you missed any of show today, don't any of the show today, don't forget can catch up on the forget you can catch up on the highlights 6 here gb highlights at 6 pm. here on gb news rest of your .

sunday >> good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo . a sunday with michael portillo. a fine form of february festival featuring facets of politics, art, debate and food and the tories tanks . in two byelections tories tanks. in two byelections this week . and another one looms this week. and another one looms in rochdale . the town's muslim in rochdale. the town's muslim population was measured at 36% in the census, three years ago, so it can play a large part in the result today with my politics panel, i want to ask to what extent the muslim vote shapes the politics of this country and are the efforts of politicians like the dumped labour candidate azhar ali, to pick up those votes? any different from my own bid? a quarter of a century ago in enfield, southgate or that of mrs. thatcher in neighbouring finchley, to strike positions that would attract the votes of the jewish community. more bad