says you on that and trial. what says you on that and suella braverman says the islamists , the extremist and the islamists, the extremist and the anti—semites are in charge now. and that is her quotes. do you agree with that or not.7 also as well, liz truss , she says the well, liz truss, she says the mps need more protection. do they .7 and what would that look they? and what would that look like 7 they? and what would that look like ? speaking of mps as well, like? speaking of mps as well, they are set to debate whether abortion should be decriminalised after 24 weeks. one of my panel says it's a woman's right to be able to abort a pregnancy, essentially to full time. goodness gracious me. what do you make to that ? me. what do you make to that? and we've seen the uk's biggest drug bust, where £450 million of class a drugs has been seized. get this though right, some people are basically saying it's time to legalise drugs so that it's a source of income for the treasury. what says you ? yes treasury. what says you? yes indeed. so we'll get into all of

that and more over the next houn that and more over the next hour. but before we do, let's cross live for tonight's latest news headlines . news headlines. >> thanks, michelle. i'm ray addison in the gb newsroom. our top stories this hour. police have confirmed three children whose bodies were found at a home in bristol died from knife injuries. seven year old faris bash , three year old juri and bash, three year old juri and nine month old mohammed were found in the sea mills area on sunday. 42 year old woman arrested on suspicion of their murder remains in hospital and is being treated for non—life threatening injuries. is being treated for non—life threatening injuries . a vigil is threatening injuries. a vigil is due to be held later in memory of the children. avon and somerset police chief inspector vicks hayward mellon says officers are doing all they can to establish a motive. the loss of such young children who have their whole lives ahead of them is truly heartbreaking and our thoughts remain with the family and everyone affected by this

tragedy. >> our investigation, led by the major crime investigation team, is progressing at pace and we're carrying out comprehensive enquiries to establish the events that led to this devastating loss of life . devastating loss of life. >> a body recovered from the river thames has been formally identified as suspected chemical attacker abdul ezedi. a post—mortem also confirmed the cause of his death was drowning his former girlfriend and her two children were injured in the attack. the 31 year old is now in a stable condition, no longer sedated . but the met police says sedated. but the met police says that officers still haven't been able to speak to her former post office chief executive paula vennells has been stripped of her cbe by the king following the horizon. it scandal. she was heavily criticised for routinely denying any problems with the system , which led to the system, which led to the wrongful prosecution of hundreds of subpostmasters . she received of subpostmasters. she received the honour in 2018 and announced that she planned to hand it back

with immediate effect. last month. she'll now formally lose the title for bringing the honours system into disrepute . honours system into disrepute. 10,000 residents are now being allowed to return to their homes in plymouth following the removal of a world war ii bomb. the 500 kilogram unexploded device was found in a garden in cheam and was successfully lifted onto a military vehicle . lifted onto a military vehicle. local mp johnny mercer has thanked emergency responders who worked around the clock . now the worked around the clock. now the bomb is now being taken by convoy to the torpoint ferry. if you're watching on tv, you can see live footage there of the slipway where it's scheduled to be disposed of at sea . isis be disposed of at sea. isis bride shamima begum has lost an appeal over the removal of her british citizenship. the now 24 year old was a teenager when she left the uk to travel to syria and join the so—called islamic

state. her citizenship was later revoked on national security grounds . revoked on national security grounds. begum's solicitor, daniel furner, has promised to continue fighting until she is brought back home. as we've been heanng brought back home. as we've been hearing former tory mp bob stewart has had his racially aggravated public order conviction quashed on appeal at southwark crown court . mr southwark crown court. mr stewart was convicted last november after he was accused of telling activists sayed ahmed alwadaei to go back to bahrain dunng alwadaei to go back to bahrain during a row outside the foreign office. mrjustice bennathan said that while the words spoken by mr stewart amounted to abuse, he did not believe it caused mr alwadaei harassment, alarm or distress as an asylum seeker has been sentenced to nine years and six months for the manslaughter of four migrants who drowned trying to cross the channel. in a retrial at canterbury crown court , ibrahim babar was found court, ibrahim babar was found guilty of piloting an

unseaworthy inflatable between france and the uk in december of 2022. he claimed that smugglers threatened to kill him if he refused to drive the boat , but refused to drive the boat, but the prosecution said he owed the passengers a duty of care . passengers a duty of care. britain has signed a new deal with the eu's border agency in a further bid to stop small boat crossings . the agreement with crossings. the agreement with frontex will see uk border force cooperate more closely with its european counterpart , sits on european counterpart, sits on intelligence and training . 1716 intelligence and training. 1716 people have been intercepted crossing the channel illegally, so far this year. james cleverly says the deal will help to tackle the problem. >> it means we can share information quicker, share intelligence quicker. we can operate more effectively and the reason that's important is because the eu wants to secure its external borders , just as we its external borders, just as we do so, people who are coming into europe from eastern europe, across the mediterranean , in the across the mediterranean, in the european union, wants to stop

them. we want to help them, stop them, because those people filter through europe and ultimately find themselves on small boats coming across to the uk . uk. >> and finally, cannabis has now been legalised in germany. chancellor olaf schulz's ruling three party coalition voted to allow individuals to cultivate three plants each and be in possession of up to 25g of the drug. larger scale production will also be allowed for members of cannabis clubs. it's hoped that the new law will help to crack down on black market and drug related crime in the country . for the latest stories , country. for the latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen , or go to gb news. com screen, or go to gb news. com slash alerts . now back to michel i >> -- >> thanks emma >> thanks very much for that, ray michelle dewberry i'm with you till 7:00 tonight alongside me. i've got the professor of politics at university of kent,

matt goodwin, and the journalist and broadcaster ella whelan. good evening to both of you. and you know the drill, don't you? it's about us three. it's not just about us three. it's not just about us three. it's much about you guys at it's very much about you guys at home as well. what's on your mind you get in mind tonight? you can get in touch the usual ways. touch all the usual ways. vaiews@gbnews.com is how you email tweet or email me or you can tweet or text me @gbnews. phil, you're one of my first emails tonight asking michelle, did you manage to get registration number to get the registration number of which ran you of the motorbike which ran you over to the studio ? over on your way to the studio? phil, this is fashion . i don't phil, this is fashion. i don't have time to talk about it right now. there's lots of other stuff ineed now. there's lots of other stuff i need to get into tonight. not least shamima begum. that is a name that you'll all be familiar with by now. she has lost her latest bid to try and return to the uk . basically, she wants her the uk. basically, she wants her british citizenship back . you british citizenship back. you know this story by now and if you don't, where on earth have you don't, where on earth have you been? of course she was the one that trotted off to syria aged 15, to join an isis. matt goodwin, where are you on this decision today?

>> well, i was looking for some good news going into the weekend. i think i got some i mean, i'm pretty happy about this result. i think most british people will look this british people will look at this and think, yeah, actually, if you join a extremist you go and join a extremist islamist that islamist death cult that is committed undermine and committed to undermine and destroying the west, then you know , on balance, shouldn't know, on balance, you shouldn't be into the country. be let back into the country. and kind of with the and i'm, i'm kind of with the british on that ella whelan. >> um, i agree in apologies to listeners . oh, yeah. listeners. oh, yeah. >> sorry, i forgot to mention that yet she's struggling with her voice, but she's a trooper and to keep going. and she's going to keep going. >> going my way >> i'm going to croak my way through but um, i agree with through it. but um, i agree with the sentiment of what matt has just terms of, think just said in terms of, i think we be very robust in our we need to be very robust in our political discernment of islamism and criticism of it. um, but i was concerned, by the way in which begum citizen was stripped at the time. i think it was used as a sort of piece of political posturing by the home secretary and it set us, you know, you could be argued that it's set a relatively dangerous

precedent around precedent, um, around the flimsiness of citizenship. and, you know, i think there's rightly were lots of rightly there were lots of people dual citizenship, a people with dual citizenship, a lot dual citizenship lot of them dual citizenship were, um , uh, bangladeshi who were, um, uh, bangladeshi who were, um, uh, bangladeshi who were a bit freaked by the decision. um and now hopefully most of those people have no interest in joining a death cult, and we should make that distinction. but i think that , distinction. but i think that, you know, uh, the uk is quite happy to outsource a lot of its problem in relation to security or threat of islamism. and or the threat of islamism. and i see this as sitting within that. you know, she's a she and what she stood for is a very big problem. we've got a lot of home grown islamism that we need to deal with. um, and, and i think she is our problem. and i think it's something that we should not run away from. >> do you share this notion that she's problem? she's our problem? >> i think it's about time >> um, i think it's about time that western nations start drawing in the sand and drawing a line in the sand and that's essentially where am . i that's essentially where i am. i think have people over the think we have people over the last few decades that we've imported into western countries who hate who we are. they hate

our way of life. they don't want to live by our rule of law. they don't share our values. they don't share our values. they don't respect the things that we care about. women's rights, the rights of children , our rights of children, our judeo—christian heritage , etc, judeo—christian heritage, etc, etc. and i think if you ask most brits out there, do you think that people who openly disregard affect the things that make us who we are, are civilisation ? who we are, are civilisation? they say, well, actually, on balance , you should be removed balance, you should be removed from the country , or certainly from the country, or certainly if you go and join an organisation is you organisation like is you shouldn't be allowed back into the country. and if you look at everything that's going on in the west today, you know, the controversy over the speaker actions in house, the pro actions in the house, the pro palestine protests, the islamist terrorism that's being committed and the beheadings of teachers in france, the teachers in the uk who are in hiding because of radical islamism, the mps who

are stepping down because of threats from radical islamism. it is about time we draw a line in the sand. i think that's ultimately what this is. >> it is. and, uh, coming up as well, a little bit later in the programme, i want to talk about what suella braverman what she has said today. she was basically saying that the islamists, extremists and islamists, the extremists and the anti—semites essentially islamists, the extremists and the anti-roost.tes essentially islamists, the extremists and the anti-roost.tes essegetilly rule the roost. so i'll get stuck point as stuck into that broader point as well. imminently . but well. uh, imminently. but there's of people today . there's a lot of people today. and i have to say, uh, it won't surprise you know surprise you to know i completely disagree with them. they're michelle, they're coming. oh, michelle, she she was groomed she was only 15. she was groomed . she didn't know what she was doing. she was a child. don't you have any sympathy for the fact she was a vulnerable fact that she was a vulnerable child? don't i don't have child? no, i don't i don't have any sympathy whatsoever any any sympathy whatsoever on any level. not wash with me level. it does not wash with me that notion. does wash with that notion. does that wash with you? child thing? >> not particularly, but none of us can climb inside. begum's head and know the real reason why she did go. um, it's. i think it's entirely plausible that she was groomed . i also that she was groomed. i also think it's entirely plausible that she and some of the other

girls went with her knew girls who went with her knew exactly they doing and exactly what they were doing and were, know, don't were, you know, at 15, you don't know everything you're know everything that you're doing, but, you know, some of it. don't think it's it. so i don't really think it's that helpful to row over that point. i think interesting point. i think the interesting thing um, matthew, you thing is that, um, matthew, you you of mentioned , well, you you sort of mentioned, well, you brought immigration into the debate, which is fair enough. and consideration and that's a consideration that's important to take on board. begum and a lot of board. but begum and a lot of the young people who are turning to is aren't immigrants. they were born here. and i mean, the sort of john phenomenon, sort of jihadi john phenomenon, which there's a problem which is that there's a problem at the moment with people who young people who are brought up in a okay, sort of tangent, gently liberal society because we're not doing very well at freedom of speech and things like that. but broadly the kind of tolerant realm of, know, of tolerant realm of, you know, access to things that teenagers have access to and sort of living in a free society who are deciding turn against that deciding to turn against that for deciding to and for some reason, deciding to and actually lot of of these actually a lot of cases of these young people enjoy a normal young people will enjoy a normal teenage life drinking and teenage life of drinking and a bit weed and whatever. and

bit of weed and whatever. and then extremists then becoming these extremists and so having a taste of freedom and so having a taste of freedom and turning against it. and i think we then have to say the problem isn't necessarily just with people like her. with begum and people like her. it's actually with us our it's actually with us and our inability. it about our inability. what is it about our inability. what is it about our inability as a society to champion issues of tolerance, freedom , democracy and we're freedom, democracy and we're failing at that. i mean, if you ask any british politician what they mean by british values, they'll say something about queen and country and fish and chips. they're useless at it . chips. they're useless at it. and we don't have a substantial, fleshed out, just understanding of what it universally means to be from the uk and why it's a good thing , why you should think good thing, why you should think this country is a good place to live the rest of it. live in, and all the rest of it. >> much of what you say is about rights when you are part of any civilisation, you also have responsibilities and what we have done a very bad job of in recent years and decades is making it clear to people that if you don't adhere to the response abilities that come with your citizenship , adhering

with your citizenship, adhering to the rule of law , playing by, to the rule of law, playing by, uh, the things that we think are part of our civilisation , then part of our civilisation, then there are going to be consequences . now, whether you consequences. now, whether you look at crime, whether you look at terrorism, whether you look at terrorism, whether you look at grooming, whether you look at, you know, the abdul ezedi case and illegal migration, it's being accepted into our society . being accepted into our society. we, um, we have got this balance between rights and responses . is between rights and responses. is it not right ? it too much about it not right? it too much about rights, not enough about responsibilities. we need to project to young people today. second, third generation. uh minorities as well. that there are consequences if you leave this country and you actively support groups that are diametrically opposed to what we believe, there are consequences for doing that. >> i actually kind of i kind of disagree with that because i think that that what we don't do well at the moment, what the government , we what the government, we what the government, we what the government does very well at the moment is ban anything. it

doesn't like. so it's been cracking down on protests, trying to bring in, for example, in to israel—gaza in relation to the israel—gaza conflict, bring in bans on bds investment into bds. anything you know, the online safety bill the police, crime and courts bill, the sort of way of dealing with this is to say, let's just ban anything that's problematic, prevent strategy, be a great example of it. um, and that number one is censorious and a problem. but number two, it doesn't deal with promoting the issue. come back to idea issue. i come back to this idea of a universal set of british values , which should try to values, which we should try to inculcate into young people. next generation. >> but aren't we, um, as well and we're not doing that. let me just ask you at home, i'm going to ask both of these two as well. what are british values. so thinking caps on and tell me but i'll ask i'll ask you what are do you regard as are what do you regard as british values? >> like them be freedom. >> i'd like them to be freedom. freedom speech, freedom of freedom of speech, freedom of protest, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, tolerance. which able which means that you're able to understand that have understand that people have different and

different views from you and accept that in a tolerant society, can think and society, you can think that and i can think that, and we can get along democracy, along broadly. and democracy, you of you know, the idea of sovereignty , the rule of law is sovereignty, the rule of law is as matthew you know, as matthew said, you know, borders into all of that, borders comes into all of that, but sense things are we but a sense that things are we believe in democracy here, that, for example, in relation to what we might come on to with the speaken we might come on to with the speaker, lindsay hoyle, and the intimidation yeah, we'll intimidation of mps. yeah, we'll definitely that. definitely be coming on that. democracy happens and people express opinion democracy happens and people express fear opinion democracy happens and people express fear or opinion democracy happens and people express fear or favour.opinion democracy happens and people express fear or favour.0|think without fear or favour. i think those are mean, the important those are i mean, the important thing to note is that our own politicians are afraid of those views. i mean, the brexit years show us that. so i'm being very sort thinking here, sort of wishful thinking here, but i think that those are some very solid values freedom, tolerance democracy that we tolerance and democracy that we can get behind. >> can i just quickly come in on this because this is a critical point for all western nations. the are tolerant of the era when we are tolerant of people who do not tolerate our way of life has to end. we cannot be tolerant of people who do not respect and play by the

rules of our civilised nation. thatis rules of our civilised nation. that is where the west has become a very weak version of what it is to strip everyone citizenship . citizenship. >> who agrees with shamima? people. >> if people leave the uk to join a radical islamist extremist organisation that beheads individuals, no beheads individuals, has no interest democracy, have no interest in democracy, i have no interest in democracy, i have no interest coming back to interest in them coming back to the uk. they should be. they should go. if you're a foreign national in the uk who glorifies islamist terrorism , um, you islamist terrorism, um, you should removed from the should be removed from the country if you commit serious crimes you're foreign crimes and you're a foreign national, should be removed national, you should be removed from the country . and the from the country. and by the way, this my view. this is way, this isn't my view. this is 75% brits. this is 80% of 75% of brits. this is 80% of brits. now second or third generation british citizens. i accept there's a more complicated challenge. we need to convince them that our values are superior to the values of some medieval barbarian death cult in the middle east. the way we do that is by projecting very clearly that if people align themselves to those sets of

values, there are enormous consequences for doing so, which is we will make your life miserable. we will make your life incredibly difficult because you know, we're at a civilizational moment right now. today we have to decide who is with us and who is against us, and we have to start trying to wrap our laws and our culture around that fact. i think that i've, you know , listen, i'm not i've, you know, listen, i'm not going to be mounting the relaunched shamima babies citizenship case. >> um, so i, you know , i think >> um, so i, you know, i think at best i'm sort of conflicted on this. but the, the thing that worries me is that in, um, doing what matthew what you've just sort of passed over which is talking about glorification of is glorification of islamism, which you can see someone making a free speech case for in fact, ihave a free speech case for in fact, i have made free speech cases for people talking about is and talk, which is, you know, even supporting it because that is about freedom of expression as abhorrent as it is. and i think

you damage the idea of freedom, tolerance and sovereignty , tolerance and sovereignty, democracy and citizenship, citizenship is a really important thing. it should mean something very substantial . and something very substantial. and if we start to denigrate those values, we become , um, values, we become, um, uncivilised. we become we go on the road towards being as barbaric as them. and i think if we really believe in these ideas, civilisation, values, we've got to have the mettle to champion them. >> well, i can tell you now, if you're listening, not watching. matt goodwin absolutely you're listening, not watching. matt gothis in absolutely you're listening, not watching. matt gothis head absolutely you're listening, not watching. matt gothis head to .olutely you're listening, not watching. matt gothis head to that. ly you're listening, not watching. matt gothis head to that. uh, shaking his head to that. uh, nigel, one of my viewers says the good news today is that begum lost her appeal. however, michelle, the bad news is that we, taxpayer, paying for we, the taxpayer, are paying for her legal team . i think you're her legal team. i think you're absolutely right, at least in part for that. uh, look, i want to carry this conversation on, and i also want to bring in suella braverman, she said that islamists are basically bullying britain submission . listen, britain into submission. listen, is right? will continue is she right? will continue this conversation couple of conversation in a couple of minutes. see you then

>> you're listening to gb news radio . radio. >> hi there. i'm michelle dewberry with you until 7:00 tonight. the professor of politics of the university of kent, matt goodwin, and the journalist broadcaster ella journalist and broadcaster ella whelan alongside me. whelan remain alongside me. i can tell you now, right . lots of can tell you now, right. lots of you are getting in touch on that shamima begum situation . an shamima begum situation. an almost . well, i won't say all of almost. well, i won't say all of you, but most of you absolutely think it's completely right that she is not allowed to come back into the uk or to have her citizenship back should i say, keefe says i'm also so fed up of people calling her a child that apparently didn't know her own mind. aged 15, the same people in be in the next breath will be saying all kids aged 16 should get vote . so which is it? get the vote. so which is it? are these kids immature people that don't know their own minds? or are they people that should be seriously with a vote? be taken seriously with a vote? um, paul says what about on the one hand, people say shamima

begum was 15. poor girl too young to know her mind. on the other hand, they say greta thunberg, she is some thunberg, aged 15, she is some kind of prophet and should be put pedestal and listened put on a pedestal and listened to . yes, we'll keep that to. yes, indeed. we'll keep that conversation but for now , conversation going. but for now, have you that the former have you seen that the former home secretary , suella home secretary, suella braverman, , um, has written braverman, she, um, has written some quite, quite strong words in the telegraph. she and this is a direct quote , says that the is a direct quote, says that the islamists, the extreme and the anti—semites are in charge. now, of course , this all kind of of course, this all kind of feeds back into the goings on that we saw outside of parliament, didn't we? and of course , inside of parliament. course, inside of parliament. apparently mps been intimidated, uh, into to having to get a vote on the situation in gaza. she also suella goes on to say we need to overcome the fear of being labelled islamophobic and speak truthfully . mark goodwin, speak truthfully. mark goodwin, where are you on all of this? >> i'm team suella. i think actually what she's speaking is, um, what she's sharing is a view that most people out there would agree with, which is that we

have a radical islamist minority thatis have a radical islamist minority that is emboldened by a radical left, um, that where where you know, we look at the mike freer case, the mp that was, uh, basically leaving frontline politics because of threats from radical islamists. politics because of threats from radical islamists . uh, whether radical islamists. uh, whether we look at the actions this week in parliament with the speaker, whether we look at, uh, some of the very serious threats to the safety of british people, we have a very big problem here in the labour party. what worries me about the incoming labour government, if you believe the polls we're going to we're polls and we're going to we're about to have a labour government. what worries me more than is than anything, michel, is actually we have a party actually that we have a party that pretty consistently caves to this sectarian interests rather than projecting what is in the interests of the wider national community. and that is where i really become quite cynical about this labour party and what it's really all about . and what it's really all about. >> and what do you think it's

all about? i think it's ultimately about representing what it would call stakeholder interests. >> uh, minority activist groups within its electorate. um, priority being those at the expense of the wider national community. i don't think i've seen any frontline labour mps today. perhaps i'm wrong, but i haven't seen any frontline labour mps criticising what was projected onto the houses of parliament last night at the sort of disgusting images of anti—semitism and the slogans and so on that were projected onto the side of the side of parliament. um, and i think the labour party is so invested in these sectional interests that it's not really speaking for the country at large. >> ella whelan do you agree with that? >> i do, and i don't i the reason i don't fully is because i don't think this is just a labour party problem. if you look at the, uh, the sort of if you listen to the debate on wednesday evening , you listen to the debate on wednesday evening, um, and, and sort of paid attention . to what sort of paid attention. to what people are saying, there was

this really telling, quote from a tory mp, mark logan. i think his name is, um, who basically said, know , we don't become said, you know, we don't become mps uh, fix potholes. you mps to, uh, fix potholes. you know, that. that's not know, none of that. that's not important here to important to us. we're here to save lives. and he an mp who save lives. and he was an mp who broke party line to broke with the party line to support ceasefire . and i think support a ceasefire. and i think it told you something about what matt identified, which that matt identified, which is that there um, desire to there is this, um, desire to kind of, um , use the middle east kind of, um, use the middle east as a bit of a stage for posturing, but also to sort of a sort of self—aggrandisement of mps who are, you know, there is nothing that took place on wednesday that will change the fate of any person living in gaza. and there's a sort of unwillingness to face up to that, that i think is cross—party ity. um, in regards to suella bravermans comments , i to suella bravermans comments, i think she's wrong to say they're in charge. i think she has a habit of trying to be inflammata, which serves her own careerist, aims, which i have no truck with, and i just find pretty boring, to be honest. but what right saying is what she's right in saying is that is an unwillingness

that there is an unwillingness to address this, um, islamist and islamist threat. if you take, for example , there was a take, for example, there was a report out, i think it was a few weeks about month ago, weeks ago, about a month ago, from jo cox foundation, from the jo cox foundation, which all um, which was all about, um, toxicity and politics and threats to mps. i read it in detail because i wrote an article about it for spiked, and it did not once mention islamism. it did not once mention anti—semitism. it did not mention anything to do with gender ideology. it was an absolute pile of nonsense . um, absolute pile of nonsense. um, and that is the sort of view taken by a lot of mps at the moment, which is just let's not talk about these issues. let's ignore them. um, yvette cooper was on the today programme this morning talking about suella braverman comments and the shadow home secretary of labour. and when asked, you know , what and when asked, you know, what do you think about this islamist threat given the fact that lindsay hoyle had essentially said, i've told by the said, i've been told by the labour party in as many words that there are mps who are being threatened and i'm therefore i'm doing something about and if

doing something about it. and if cooper basically said there's nothing to see here, which is, to my mind, gaslighting her own mps, um, so there's mps, actually, um, so there's something very worrying, gaslighting the country. well, yeah. something yeah. well, there's something very about the very worrying going on about the unwillingness to address islamist terror. unwillingness to address islamist terror . and i think it islamist terror. and i think it comes from a fear about being islamophobe , in part, also just islamophobe, in part, also just an outright cowardice. and the reason why that's so toxic is we have to be very clear about making the distinction between the vast majority of muslims who despise these actions as much as anyone else, and then the sizeable number of extremists who are hell bent in trying to convince people that death cults are the way to go, and that the way we live is terrible. and i think that you can be very clear in condemning islamism a very easily clear and in condemning islamism, though many people find hard to do for some find it hard to do for some reason and not be islamophobic, thatis reason and not be islamophobic, that is a very easy thing to do, but can i? >> i'm tired this >> i'm tired of this conversation islamophobia . conversation about islamophobia. the, uh, the shawcross review is very clear. the biggest threat

to our way of life is coming from radical islamist terrorism. it isn't coming from the far right. it isn't coming from extreme right wing groups. the shawcross review is clear. it's coming from radical islamists. and the reason the labour party don't want to talk about this. let's be really honest about what's going on, is because we have a belief system in this country , um, a kind of woke country, um, a kind of woke ideology that says minorities are good and majorities are bad . are good and majorities are bad. so the political class cannot ultimately bring itself to say to a minority group has a significant problem within its own communities that it needs to get on board with, because that would accept or that would be based on the premise that the entire narrative of that they've been pushing for the last 20 years is wrong. the biggest threat to our way of life is not from the far right. it is from radical, violent islamism. let's call it what it is, and let's deal with that.

>> one of the things i found interesting and what suella said, um, she says we cannot allow teachers to be hounded out of schools because a picture of mohammed was shown. uh, she essentially can't allow essentially says we can't allow children to be bullied because the was scuffed, the quran was scuffed, accidentally. this accidentally. we in this country, it's perfectly lawful to religion or god to criticise any religion or god . 1st may disagree passionately, but not criminal. but but it's not criminal. but i take issue with some of that because when she says we cannot allow to hounded out allow teachers to be hounded out of school, well, there have been. i found really been. and what i found really interesting people interesting is that people are starting attention in the starting to pay attention in the here and now, and they're starting go, look at starting to go, oh, look at this. democracy is threatened because apparently, um, they've had this amendment on had to put this amendment on their, slip their, on their voting slip because these because there's been these threats towards mps. but actually allowed actually we've, we've allowed ourselves to get into this position because the second that you let a teacher to go into hiding for his life and nobody even this says we cannot even this letter says we cannot allow teachers to be hounded out. but they are. >> it's not. not only that, >> it's not. it's not only that, we had an mike freer, who we had an mp, mike freer, who left office because threats left office because of threats

from radical islamists. now, where was the prime minister? where was the big statement outside number where was outside number 10? where was everybody, you know, decrying the fact that we have a member of leaving public of parliament leaving public office from office because of threats from radical islamists , alongside radical islamists, alongside what's happened with the teacher in birmingham , we have a in birmingham, we have a political ruling class that is basically scared to call this what it is. let's be honest about what's going on here. and that's the problem. now, what the answer is we need courage in pubuc the answer is we need courage in public life . we need security. public life. we need security. we need mps to feel protected, to feel able to speak out and we need our columnists. by the way , need our columnists. by the way, michel, many of whom have spent the last few weeks saying, oh, there's no problem here within british communities . the british muslim communities. the answer is in, you know , answer actually is in, you know, student activists from the 1960s, haven't got any 1960s, and we haven't got any problem all with problem at all with multiculturalism. reason multiculturalism. the reason suella is cutting through is because actually, she's because actually, what she's saying that the problem here saying is that the problem here is directly related to our experience with mass migration.

>> and i know, but what she's. >> and i know, but what she's. >> well, i was words she's in she is in a senior position of power. she there's no point writing. you can't allow teachers to be hounded out of school because you've got a teacher hounded out teacher that's been hounded out of if you're of school. so if you're passionate about not allowing teachers to be out of teachers to be hounded out of school, you're position school, you're in a position of power. position to power. you're in a position to affect that change. get that guy, him back into that guy, get him back into that school, of steel school, put a ring of steel security him and send security around him and send a message to the community and to these extremists. we're not having what she having it. that's what she should doing . should be doing. >> yeah, i totally agree >> yeah, yeah, i totally agree with unfortunately, suella with that. unfortunately, suella braverman does not have a freedom loving bone in her body all during her time as home secretary, she was arguing for greater clampdowns on press tests, and she is constantly. i mean, even within this article, she's essentially labelling the entirety of the pro—palestine marches as anti—semitic and hate—filled and in need of being arrested . and now you might arrested. and now you might disagree vehemently with a lot of what goes on on those marches . i of what goes on on those marches .iindeedi of what goes on on those marches . i indeed i do, but i wouldn't

for one second suggest that they should be illegal. in fact, there was actually quite a telling lots of telling response from lots of parliamentarians protests parliamentarians to the protests outside on wednesday. there was parliamentarians to the protests 0|bigie on wednesday. there was parliamentarians to the protests 0|big pro—palestine ay. there was parliamentarians to the protests 0|big pro—palestine presence was a big pro—palestine presence outside the palace of westminster on wednesday , when westminster on wednesday, when mps um , discussing these mps were, um, discussing these amendments. as you might expect, because a relevant issue . because it was a relevant issue. um, and there were lots of mps suggesting people suggesting that those people should that they should be stopped, that they should be stopped, that they should arrested, that should even be arrested, that they were saying that there's now that buffer now suggestions that buffer zones put up, just zones be put up, not just outside houses, which might outside mps houses, which might sound buildings, but sound sensible buildings, but outside buildings and outside public buildings and constituency is a constituency offices. this is a liberal. this is this is a very, very wrong attack on freedom of protest and freedom of expression . so the reason why i, expression. so the reason why i, you know, i think that we have to be careful in the way in which we not careful. i think we have clear in the way in have to be clear in the way in which we talk about this islamist threat is it comes back to what we talked about the to what we talked about at the start the which is what start of the show, which is what british are meant to be british values are meant to be about freedom, tolerance and democracy. to democracy. and if we start to damage three values by damage those three values by clamping on expression

clamping down on free expression and you know , and indeed by, you know, straying into the territory of suggesting that an entire community of muslims are , are, community of muslims are, are, uh, are culpable , are guilty, uh, are culpable, are guilty, are responsible for extremists. that's a problem . because what that's a problem. because what you do is you hang on a minute. what you do is you risk losing that argument around tolerance. >> this is a really important point. let's be absolutely clear. freedom tolerance, democracy. okay fine. where over the last 2 or 3 months, five months have the prominent british muslim spokes people been advancing . those arguments been advancing. those arguments in our national debate? >> we are making a song. no no no no no no no. [10 [10 [10 [10 ho. no no no no no. >> this is a really no. this is a really important point because after october the 7th, we are at after october the 7th, we are at a civilizational moment where you are either projecting those values and defending those values and defending those values freedom, the way values because freedom, the way you talk about it, is actually not going . it's not going to get not going. it's not going to get us through this. this problem. we have public institutions like

the police that have been openly politicised. have a civil politicised. we have a civil service that is politicised. we have of uh, uh, you know , public have of uh, uh, you know, public institutions that usually we would expect to be neutral and objective , but have been objective, but have been clearly, very clearly , as we saw clearly, very clearly, as we saw with the house of commons this week, been taking sides in week, have been taking sides in this debate way that we all this debate in a way that we all find to be quite uncomfortable and disturbing . so i'm sorry, and disturbing. so i'm sorry, the freedom, the loving talk, etc. it isn't going to cut it this time. if you abhor extremism and terrorism , you've extremism and terrorism, you've got to stand up now and say why you abhor the difference between you abhor the difference between you and me is i don't put freedom in square quotes. >> i think it's the most important value to defend. and i think matt, you've given think maybe, matt, you've given up on it a little. >> then let's all let's, let's all stand up and say why we defend it, including british muslims. >> e“— >> well, what i'm going to stand up that i have to go up and say is that i have to go to a break, but this will continue because i certainly want to let ella her want to let ella have her response well. so response to that as well. so we'll see you in two.

>> you're listening to gbh news

radio . radio. >> hello there. michelle dewberry with you till 7:00 tonight. professor of politics, university of kent matt goodwin remain alongside me, as does the journalist and broadcaster ella wheeler. i had so much i wanted to talk to you about tonight, but i and i know you guys at home are really enjoying this conversation, so i'm going to stick for a few more stick with it for a few more minutes. just before break, minutes. just before the break, we about free we were talking about free speech the rest of it, speech and all the rest of it, and one of the points that matt goodwin was just making was why have been more vocal have they not been more vocal critics then, you from critics then, if you like, from within, the muslim within, perhaps the muslim community extreme community on some of the extreme behaviour been behaviour that we've just been talking about? i know you wanted to up on that, ella. to pick back up on that, ella. >> well, it's a very important point. take example, point. i mean, take for example, after of october pogrom. after the 7th of october pogrom. um organisations that say that they of women they speak on behalf of women like un women, um, took months to respond, months to send to respond, took months to send out a paltry tweet saying saying, oh, we condemn all violence in this rubbish kind of way. so you know, it does matter

what people respond to what what people respond to and what people in people don't. people in positions the positions of power. but the problem i is that if we're problem i have is that if we're suggesting that because the muslim britain, for muslim council of britain, for example, hasn't released example, has or hasn't released a, um, a satisfactory statement , a, um, a satisfactory statement, then number one, you're tarring all muslims with that brush, which i think is a problem. but also, if we get into the kind of silences, violence argument, which is a favourite tactic of black lives matter activists, for example , that unless you for example, that unless you speak up on something and unless you do it satisfactory, then you're somehow complicit . you do it satisfactory, then you're somehow complicit. um, and that kind of compelled speech that i think that is also a problem . um, and that is a problem. um, and that is something that to be avoided, i think that we can make moral and political judgement s assess political judgement s and assess political situations. that's fine. i would be i would fine. but i would be i would never sit here and say that the muslim community, which encompasses a wide range of people with various religious and political views, like any big community, jewish, christian, whatever , um, is christian, whatever, um, is somehow respond for the uniquely

responsible for the growth in islamism . i think actually, islamism. i think actually, that's letting us off the hook, which is, you know, god. >> why? >> why? >> what do you mean, us blaming us for this problem? >> british society? no i'm sorry, we have just seen over the last two weeks the most disturbing i've seen in disturbing data i've seen in more 20 years of studying more than 20 years of studying radical politics. >> extremist politics in this country, which is anti semitism in britain , is basically going in britain, is basically going mainstream . that if you are mainstream. that if you are a british jew, you are feeling under threat, besieged, harassed , discriminated against and i think it's entirely fair for us to ask a british muslim organisations, mosques . and organisations, mosques. and others to speak up and say actually the harassment and the intimidation and the prejudice that has been shown towards british jews is outrageous and unrwa acceptable. this is this is the contract we have. we all belong to this society and we agree we're going to uphold the

rule of law. we're going to uphold free speech. we're going to uphold free expression and we're going to uphold the fact that we're not going to allow extremists run extremists and radicals to run amok. now now, i've heard endless amounts of, uh , stories endless amounts of, uh, stories and narratives about everything that's wrong with with the west, everything that's wrong with our history, everything that's wrong with britain, everything . that's with britain, everything. that's wrong with who we are. i've not heard really anything at currently as to what's wrong with the islamists. what's wrong with the islamists. what's wrong with the islamists. what's wrong with the radical extremists who are parade ing in our streets singing sick , sickening songs singing sick, sickening songs and chants that if i was a british jew, i would, to be honest, leave britain? i mean, if that if i heard this going on in the streets and you say it's on us. no, it isn't on us. we've built a remarkable civilisation. we've built a remarkable place to be. it's actually not on us to be. it's actually not on us to defend this. it is on the people who have come into our

society who should be standing up and saying this is, you know, this is why we play by the rules. >> i mean the people who've come into our society. you're you're first. you're strange. you're doing this right kind of dodgy thing you're using the thing, which is you're using the sort you keep saying sort of you keep saying immigration is a problem, which is fine. that's a debate. >> i'm not saying immigration is a i'm saying. i'm a problem. i'm saying. i'm saying all have to have a saying we all have to have a social contract that we live by. >> hang on. you're using an us and them narrative. you're talking whole communities talking about whole communities in would in a way which i think would make of people very make a lot of people very uncomfortable. in uncomfortable. you're right in saying west taken saying that the west has taken a real knocking of late. it's not from muslim community, it's from sort class academics. >> a lot that's not >> a lot of them that's not true. it is a kind of people from a loose alliance of, look, you had your spiel, her finish. >> go on. which is that, you know, actually, it's you're more likely find the vicious likely to find the vicious criticisms of the west as being colonial, privileged, colonial, white, privileged, blah, the blah, blah, blah. and the columns then columns of the guardian. then you pillars you are on five pillars or anywhere like that. so anywhere else like that. so i think there's it's a think that there's it's a complicated issue. the reason why i said it's on us is not to

say that, oh, rubbish. say that, oh, we're rubbish. there's nothing here. it's actually the opposite to it comes were comes back to what we were talking start of talking about at the start of the programme, is that we don't have courage defend what have the courage to defend what should be our values. i'm sounding like a broken record to everyone and everyone at home. freedom and tolerance and democracy. we aren't defend that aren't able to defend that in relation brexit. we're not relation to brexit. we're not able defend it in relation to able to defend it in relation to freedom of protest, freedom of speech. on to speech. we're coming on to a whole different topic in relation abortion. we seem to relation to abortion. we seem to be to defend it in be unwilling to defend it in relation that. don't relation to that. so we don't have a convincing argument for particularly young in particularly young people in schools this schools or elsewhere to say this is how we live in this society, this is the values we hold. we need to get better at making those arguments, rather than reaching for the ban button or reaching for the ban button or reaching for the ban button or reaching for demonisation reaching for the demonisation tactics. >> @— >> well, there you go. um, strong opinions here. you will have strong opinions at home as well pick this well. i'll just, um, pick this up. mentioned the muslim up. we mentioned the muslim council of britain. i've just had quick scan of their had a very quick scan of their most recent tweets. i have most recent tweets. uh, i have to couple of hours ago to say a couple of hours ago they said the former home secretary's extremism should

concern a track concern us all with a track record of demonising muslim communities and peaceful palestinian protesters. this is more dog whistle politics, they say. you can read all of their statements on their twitter feed, and you can make of that what you will. paul has been in touch, though. i just want to bnng touch, though. i just want to bring this in, says i have got jewish heritage. however, i wouldn't make it well known at jewish heritage. however, i woul

hi there, michelle dewberry with your tools seven. matt goodwin ella whelan remained. chris says random question what happens when you go to a break? does everyone keep arguing do you everyone keep arguing or do you go and have a cup of tea and go off and have a cup of tea and get on? it depends on the topic and the people. i can tell you that there was no arguing tonight. they're very respectful debate like look, debate and i like it. look, let's the chase let's cut straight to the chase because want to squeeze because i want to squeeze one more in mps. they're more topic in mps. they're basically going to have vote basically going to have a vote on march. long on an amendment in march. long story it's all about story short, it's all about whether or not people should be criminalised an criminalised if they have an abortion. weeks, ella abortion. after 24 weeks, ella whelan where are you this? whelan where are you on this? >> no, don't think women >> uh, no, i don't think women should jail for should be sent to jail for making decisions their own making decisions about their own body. and as currently body. and as we currently sit here, autonomy is here, our bodily autonomy is governed law which is 163 governed by a law which is 163 years old. the 1861 offences against the person act. um, and it's, i think it it's, it's, you know, i think it is fit for the modern world, is not fit for the modern world, which is that women make decisions about their pregnancies or not pregnancies and whether or not to an abortion for a whole to have an abortion for a whole range of reasons, ranging from, you know, the serious to sort of the commonplace or even the

mundane. um, and i think it's a fundamental pillar of a free and tolerant society that women have the freedom to make decisions that maybe you or i might not agree with, but suit them and are relevant to their life, their family life, and their futures. so this bill, this amendment, as she does a very specific thing. it just removes the criminal conviction because there have been women who have gone to jail for having an abortion beyond the 24 week limit. there was a quite a famous case recently. um i think most people understand that that is. >> are you talking about carla foster? >> yeah, that's a that's a very terrible thing for to for a society to be complicit in, to jail women foster if you're not familiar it, the familiar with it, she was the lady that lockdown lied. lady that during lockdown lied. >> that she was >> she pretended that she was very pregnancy. she very early in her pregnancy. she wasn't and if my memory wasn't at all. and if my memory serves me correctly, she aborted her pregnancy at 31 weeks and she to prison, which she was sent to prison, which i completely with, by the completely agreed with, by the way. then was released. way. and then she was released. if thinking, um, do if i'm right in thinking, um, do you think woman's right you think it's a woman's right to an abortion for whatever to have an abortion for whatever reason? until point of

birth? >> i think if you believe in women's bodily autonomy and freedom, then can't have any freedom, then you can't have any limits it . it's freedom, then you can't have any limits it. it's an freedom, then you can't have any limits it . it's an either or. limits on it. it's an either or. you can't be a little bit pregnant. you can't be little pregnant. you can't be a little bit favour of women's bodily bit in favour of women's bodily autonomy we think that autonomy either. we think that we men or we don't. we are equal to men or we don't. >> so we're and you know, it >> so but we're and you know, it has that the, the has to be said that the, the number of late tum abortions is very, very low. >> and the women who take those late abortions it with late tum abortions do it with full knowledge very it's a full knowledge and very it's a very go from being very big thing to go from being this big to not being pregnant anymore. something an anymore. that's something an issue that women don't take lightly. >> @- w" pn— >> and where does that leave the rights child? rights of the child? >> i don't think that the rights of a thing. i of the unborn is a thing. i think that the precedent and the priority should be the woman's freedom. is the member of freedom. she is the member of society. for society. she is the person for whom something is happening to her body. it's for you her body. um, it's fine for you to the unborn if that's to consider the unborn if that's your opinion, your personal opinion, but i don't we should make laws don't think we should make laws around opinions. around personal opinions. it has to be about priority of to be about the priority of women's freedom. >> mm. >> mm. >> think lots of mm- >> i think lots of people would struggle that . uh, take, struggle with that. uh, take, i think you particularly when think when you particularly when you to the sort of time

you get to the sort of time penods you get to the sort of time periods that we're talking about, you're not just talking about, you're not just talking about women being , um, in about women being, um, in control of all of the decisions. you're talking about a life. you're talking about a life. you're talking about a life. you're talking about, um , you're talking about, um, something that has rights of its own . you're talking about own. you're talking about a human being that has rights of its own . and i think it's very its own. and i think it's very it's very easy to say things like, well, actually, women should complete control and should have complete control and autonomy over own autonomy over their own body. but whole point of life but the whole point of life creation actually at that creation is actually at that point just about them. point, it's not just about them. well i mean, it's not easy actually . actually. >> i mean, if i was being unfair, i'd say, matt, it's really easy for you to say that you have problems with this because can't get pregnant . because you can't get pregnant. you can't to make decisions you can't have to make decisions about you can't have to make decisions abo let me jump you can't have to make decisions abolet me jump in. because i am >> let me jump in. because i am a woman and i certainly have a problem with it. i think it's absolutely disgraceful at a time where there's birth where actually there's birth control, there's legal abortions to i've got to control, there's legal abortions to i i've got to control, there's legal abortions to i think i've got to control, there's legal abortions to i think it's i've got to control, there's legal abortions to i think it's absolutely to say. i think it's absolutely disgraceful that anyone, uh, for a reason, i don't know, you don't like your bloke anymore. you what? let's end my you know what? let's end my child's before, what, 24 child's life before, what, 24

hours it's due. but you hours before it's due. but you know this is a really know what? this is a really serious debate, and i know it affects people in many different ways. i'm going continue this ways. i'm going to continue this debate, on different debate, perhaps on a different programme, because unfortunately, you how unfortunately, you know how this programme unfortunately, you know how this progtimene uh ella whelan. got time for. uh ella whelan. thank you very much. one of my viewers. fact, not just one, viewers. in fact, not just one, many said, .uh, can many of them have said, .uh, can you give a high five? you just give a high five? i can't reach off all off the chair, but a virtual high five to for continuing like a to ella for continuing like a trooper sore for it. trooper with a very sore for it. we appreciate that very much. uh, matt goodwin, you. of uh, matt goodwin, thank you. of course, contribution course, for your contribution tonight. also, very tonight. and also, very importantly, you importantly, always thank you for joining this for watching. and joining this conversation. much conversation. i very much appreciate it. have great appreciate it. have a great weekend i'll see monday weekend and i'll see you monday night . a brighter outlook with night. a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. on. gb news. >> good evening. welcome to your latest gb news weather update with me annie from the met office. it will be a chilly start to the weekend. there will be some early sunshine though, with a of showers

with a risk of showers developing the afternoon. low developing in the afternoon. low pressure charge pressure has been in charge through today that will slowly start fill , through today that will slowly start fill, bringing us a start to fill, bringing us a slightly more settled evening and any showers and saturday, so any showers through the day will tend to fade away through the course of the night. but they will still persist across some western coasts and across the far south—east as well, where it could be quite breezy overnight. elsewhere, it be elsewhere, though, it will be a clear and calm and dry night, so temperatures will away. so temperatures will drop away. so it's to be quite a cold it's likely to be quite a cold start to the day on saturday. so frost potentially some icy patches and also some mist and fog by tomorrow morning. that should lift and clear by mid—morning and many areas will see a dry and bright day through saturday. the best of the sunshine will definitely be through the morning. cloud will bubble up into lunchtime and into afternoon, allowing bubble up into lunchtime and into showers rnoon, allowing bubble up into lunchtime and into showers to »on, allowing bubble up into lunchtime and into showers to develop ving bubble up into lunchtime and into showers to develop .ng bubble up into lunchtime and into showers to develop . these few showers to develop. these should be fairly few and far between they will quite between and they will be quite light if you do get caught in one in the sunshine it will be feeling fairly pleasant well feeling fairly pleasant as well with winds it will with those light winds it will be another cold start to day be another cold start to the day on northern

on sunday, but across northern areas stay dry and areas it should stay dry and bright through much of the day . bright through much of the day. in the south, though, quite a different story with some quite persistent wet weather set to arrive across southern areas of england, possibly into parts of south wales. two turns at south wales. two turns dry at more widely once again on monday, wet monday, before further wet weather on weather arrives in the north on tuesday. see you later. >> looks like things heating >> looks like things are heating up sponsors of up boxt boilers sponsors of weather on .

gb news. have >> welcome to the andersons real world. and tonight on the show, we've got lieutenant general sir

simon mayall. we also got political commentator matthew stadler. he's going head to head with peter whittle . also got with peter whittle. also got author in the dc and we've got a legend of tv on tonight that is john lyons. but first let's go to the . to the. news >> thanks, lee. i'm ray anderson in the gb news room. our top stories. police have confirmed three children whose bodies were found at a home in bristol, died from knife injuries. seven year old farris bash , three year old old farris bash, three year old jury old farris bash, three year old jury and nine month old mohammed were found in the sea mills area on sunday. a 42 year old woman arrested on suspicion of their murder remains in hospital and is being treated for non—life threatening injuries. is being treated for non—life threatening injuries . a vigil is threatening injuries. a vigil is due to be held in memory of the children. former post office chief executive paula vennells has been stripped of her cbe by

the