the left with great divides on the left as well as the right emerging over the gaza ceasefire vote, is the culture of intimidation once again gaining momentum within the labour party. as we mark the two year anniversary of the russia—ukraine war this weekend, i'll be speaking to the former foreign secretary, sir malcolm rifkind, to find out if he still believes putin will be deposed in future. i'll be in the near future. i'll be sharing an exclusive interview with the israeli father, whose baby's birth certificate was returned, defaced and ripped from the home office earlier this week. and i'll also be joined by someone at the heart of the loan charge tax row with hmrc , who'll be telling me why hmrc, who'll be telling me why this could be devastating for this could be as devastating for the as the post the government as the post office scandal. it's going to be a roller coaster, 90 minutes of punchy political chat , so don't punchy political chat, so don't go . go anywhere. well to go through the papers this morning, as ever, i'm

delighted to be joined now by nicholas owen, former bbc broadcaster and journalist nick lovely to see you. good morning to you. quite the weekend with everything going on with the anderson. let's get straight in. well let's talk first all well let's talk first of all we're calling politicians in we're calling it politicians in peril. the sunday telegraph peril. it's the sunday telegraph front reflected front page. it's also reflected on the sunday times on the front of the sunday times bodyguards for mps as extremism threat rises. i mean, this is a sorry state of affairs. we are heanng sorry state of affairs. we are hearing about three female mps now needing security, even though they're backbenchers now . though they're backbenchers now. i think none of the papers are naming them for understandable reasons. i think one of them must be suella braverman, because she was in this seat a couple of weeks ago, revealing to she had had to retain to us that she had had to retain her bodyguards despite standing down home secretary because her bodyguards despite standing dothe home secretary because her bodyguards despite standing dothe threat|e secretary because her bodyguards despite standing dothe threat she'sretary because her bodyguards despite standing dothe threat she's faced.because her bodyguards despite standing dothe threat she's faced. but use of the threat she's faced. but my aren't we my goodness, aren't we in unchartered territory here? >> yes we are, mean, i'm >> yes we are, i mean, i'm surprised it's only three. surprised if it's only three. frankly um, let's just remind ourselves, obviously, senior members of the cabinet get security . i members of the cabinet get security. i mean, members of the cabinet get security . i mean, full up armed

security. i mean, full up armed and everything else. um, not all ministers do, though. some quite prominent ones do. i don't think, for example, the chancellor of the exchequer . no. chancellor of the exchequer. no. despite fact the things despite the fact all the things he our money, uh, he he does with our money, uh, he doesn't it. but as you doesn't merit it. but as you say, what a sad situation. we're coming to when coming down to it. when individual mps having individual mps start to having to. well, when we say hire bodyguards, if that's the right expression, uh, of course it'll all be on the taxpayer. yes fair enough. maybe that's the world we in now. but if we start we live in now. but if we start with three female mps, remind ourselves that it was, you know, a one female and one male mp who were actually murdered. yes. uh, while were serving. uh, no , while they were serving. uh, no, uh, terrifying situation. and it i can't believe that it won't just get worse. frankly, once you start this, i think it'll a situation where people will say every mp will need a lot more protection. look, i think this gaza conflict has become so toxic now, the debate becoming so divisive. >> obviously, we've seen those scenes outside parliament with from river the sea being from the river to the sea being projected onto big we saw projected onto big ben. we saw the surrounding of tobias

ellwood's house. we saw the surrounding of wes streeting and others offices , as we also had others offices, as we also had this incident, others offices, as we also had this incident , this sort of this incident, this sort of shenanigans in parliament last week with lindsay hoyle. what's the coverage saying about the speaker now this morning in his future ? future? >> well, i mean, i remember heanng >> well, i mean, i remember hearing on um, friday evening, i think it was, various think it was, uh, various political shows and question times and things. oh lindsay hoyle, he's toast. you know, he'll be gone, but he'll have to go he'll be gone, but he'll have to 90 by he'll be gone, but he'll have to go by the weekend. well, he's still a post at the moment, still in a post at the moment, isn't he? but it's a bit hard to see him. how he can get out of this. uh it's a real conundrum here, isn't it? what sort of pressure was put on him by sir keir starmer? you know, all i have heard from starmer is. and all of all of us have heard is a one line saying, oh, no question of it. or whatever the phrase he used, i think an awful lot of people are not going to be at all happy with that. what the devil happened in that little office speaker's chair? >> we heard went in shortly

>> we heard he went in shortly before moment where lindsay before this moment where lindsay hoyle obviously labour hoyle obviously chose the labour amendment. , broke with amendment. you know, broke with protocol, with his own protocol, broke with his own clerk's we then also clerk's advice. we then also heard that the chief of staff , heard that the chief of staff, sue gray, in the to office sue gray, was in the to office kate ferguson and the sun on sunday. here has got a line suggesting that labour mps boasted sir keir starmer was going to quotes fix the speaker, fix the speaker. >> yeah, well of course this is this a case that one way or another, what words we use. but it was made clear to lindsay hoyle, if he wants to go on being speaker when the new government comes in and everybody, particularly the bookmakers, think it's all going to be labour government with to be a labour government with a huge as if he huge majority as well. if he wants continue be speaker, wants to continue to be speaker, uh, he'd better sort tow the uh, he'd better sort of tow the party remembering, party line remembering, of course that he, you know, he's course, that he, you know, he's still a mp and, uh, still a labour mp and, uh, although doesn't not supposed still a labour mp and, uh, altshow1 doesn't not supposed still a labour mp and, uh, altshow any doesn't not supposed still a labour mp and, uh, altshow any politicaliot supposed still a labour mp and, uh, altshow any political views, posed to show any political views, whatever. i mean, that is a terribly difficult, dangerous thing for me, i must say. and i just wish there was a little more . i don't know how it's

more. i don't know how it's done, how it can be done, a little more pressure on on sir keir starmer come out. okay you know, you're expecting to be the prime minister. you've got to be straight on this. what did you say him? say to him? >> i mean, he has category categorically denied claims that, threatened the that, uh, he threatened the speaker losing his speaker with losing his job. should he choose this labour amendment. >> but what did he say? >> but what did he say? >> what did he say? a good >> what did he say? it's a good question. i shall be trying question. and i shall be trying to the answer it in the to find the answer to it in the course of presenting this show over the coming let's over the coming weeks, let's talk lee anderson talk about the lee anderson story. lee be reformed? is story. can lee be reformed? is how we're headlining it. i mean, the front is the sunday mirror front page is not punches. big not pulling any punches. big boot out this bigot. they say we've got a sunday telegraph piece talking about how nigel farage has said that he would be quite happy to have lee anderson in the reform tent . but i mean, in the reform tent. but i mean, what's your view on what he said and the subsequent fallout ? and the subsequent fallout? >> uh, words do matter. don't they? and how you phrase things is terribly important, but i think what lee anderson has touched on is something that is rattles around in the back of a lot of people's minds that we do

seem to have now a situation on, particularly on the streets of london, are capital. every london, which are capital. every . single weekend now, in particular, these huge mobs coming out, uh, with, with these some, some, some slogans going around at and it just seems as though the mayor capitulated to them. that's a that's a hard thing to say, isn't it? but there's not much sign of much pushback against some of this stuff. >> although, i mean, to single out the mayor, just to add some balance to this debate. i mean, you could single out the met, and know the former home and we know that the former home secretary, suella braverman, did, said, while in did, she said, while she was in office that felt that the office that she felt that the met were choosing sides, were playing favourites. um, you know, criticism know, it's a difficult criticism to isn't it, khan to make, isn't it, sadiq khan is a muslim . um, he has got a lot a muslim. um, he has got a lot of close friends and allies in the muslim community, but then he'll be arguing that he's london mayor for people of all religions, cultures and backgrounds. so is it the specificity of singling out khan? because actually, lee

anderson hasn't really strayed far from what suella braverman said in the telegraph last week. that's absolutely true. and it is true to say that there are some seemingly extremist elements overtaking some of some seemingly extremist elememarches:aking some of some seemingly extremist elememarches .king some of these marches. >> yes, i'm afraid it does seem that i mean, i just i tell you that i mean, ijust i tell you something that gets me a bit. it's this business about this phrase, know, from the river phrase, you know, from the river to um uh, that's that's to the sea. um uh, that's that's a very inflammatory thing, actually . and i think one has actually. and i think one has got to be very clear about that. what actually, moment what is actually, at the moment between the river jordan and the mediterrane an sea, it is the state of israel. so we are state of israel. so if we are talking about a overturning that , that's a very, very dangerous thing indeed, in my view, that thatis thing indeed, in my view, that that is that phrase is splashed about everywhere. i think it is time perhaps, for the police or the mayor or whatever, to say, let us please stop at least that sort of inflammatory remark being thrown onto the, uh, onto onto big ben as a slogan , you onto big ben as a slogan, you know, and people have preached about about exclusion zones. >> i think john mann, the former

labour mp for bassetlaw , he's labour mp for bassetlaw, he's done a lot on anti—semitism . um, done a lot on anti—semitism. um, um, sort of in a, in an independent capacity, both for government and indeed for the labour party. he's saying there should be a buffer zone around parliament. people shouldn't be able to protest. i mean, the counter—argued to would be, counter—argued to that would be, well, can't protest well, if you can't protest outside parliament, where can you? i think i agree with >> no, no, i think i agree with you. i think that's another slippery slope in another direction that i wouldn't want to see. but i think we're trying. i think we've got to try to get some rules in to get some, some rules in place, if you like, and then we can turn and then turn round to people anderson and people like lee anderson and say, look, look, look say, no, no, look, look, look here. very here. people are being very strict about that you strict about this, that you cannot go ahead accusing the mayor of being in hock to islamists in the way that he has suggested. the only way you're going to get get round this. i think, is by by showing a bit of strength in the other direction. you you have got to you have got to you have got to address the concerns. very , address the concerns. the very, very clear completely very clear and completely understandable concerns of people jewish community people in the jewish community who actually feel threatened. i've got very, very good jewish

friends feel that friends who really do feel that this country now is a place where anti—semitism is on the rise. this is an and that's we've got to face that. that's a terrible thing. although we will see, you know, the statistics suggest that an islamophobia is also on the rise. >> and like anderson's >> and comments like anderson's don't that. just a final don't help that. just a final thought on on anderson. um nick is the tories loss reform's gain ? >> well, 7_ >> well, i'm imam 7 >> well, i'm not so ? >> well, i'm not so sure 7 >> well, i'm not so sure about that. it's interesting , isn't that. it's interesting, isn't it? i mean, i think what, uh , it? i mean, i think what, uh, dear friend and your fellow presenter nigel farage likes her, uh, having people who make waves is terrific, isn't it? but uh, i'm not sure whether lee anderson will be very good for reform or for anybody else. i think lee actually , i'll tell think lee actually, i'll tell you what, mate. shut up . you what, mate. shut up. >> fair play. let's go to the final story that we picked out. we've picked it out because of your former guise as a bbc broadcaster. to be fair, broadcaster. well, to be fair, this this caught your attention. >> absolutely. >> it did? oh, absolutely. >> it did? oh, absolutely. >> front page of the >> on the front page of the sunday telegraph. and i'll sunday telegraph. yes. and i'll give headline and you

give you the headline and you can to from tim davie, can react to it from tim davie, bbc should be proud to be progressive, director general told staff. progressive, director general told sta'that's right. yeah >> yes, that's right. yeah i mean this is just what do i think about this is when somebody like tim davies says this at the very top of the bbc, this at the very top of the bbc, this is going to go straight to the heart of those who write lots of letters to your newspaper. camilla, you know, uh , in their golf , grumpy colonels in their golf clubs they're say no. clubs, they're going to say no. ah, told you , not all grumpy ah, i told you, not all grumpy colonels. >> you get people of all shapes and sizes criticising bbc and sizes criticising the bbc for to be fair, of course. for bias. to be fair, of course. and of course, denies and the bbc, of course, denies that. davies basically that. but davies basically saying it's to woke. saying it's fine to be woke. i mean, is it at the bbc? >> well, he didn't quite say that actually. i think he said, you know, this is not woke, but but we're proud to be progressive. >> well, they be >> well, should they be progressive, they taking progressive, should they taking any stance? i think any sort of stance? i think again, so people in again, i just why so people in these prominent these sort of prominent positions generals positions and director generals are difficult job. are very, very difficult job. >> think tim davie is >> and i think tim davie is a great fellow in many ways. but again , you know, choose your again, you know, choose your words a bit more carefully,

please. why don't people think before they speak well or put it on twitter or whatever they're doing they've doing with it because they've probably on twitter? >> that's half the problem, nico. you much nico. and thank you very much indeed joining me this indeed for joining me this morning. now, don't move a muscle in a few muscle because in just a few minutes, i'll speaking to minutes, i'll be speaking to israel, father of the baby israel, the father of the baby whose birth certificate was defaced to the defaced after being sent to the home office. stay tuned

welcome back to the camilla tominey show now, genuinely, you won't want to miss the next interview because earlier i spoke to israel, a father whose five month old baby birth certificate was returned, defaced and ripped from the home office this week after sending it off for a passport application. it's really quite a staggering interview. here's what he had to say. staggering interview. here's what he had to say . israel for what he had to say. israel for those people coming to this

story fresh this morning, what exactly happened? you had your baby's birth certificate . you baby's birth certificate. you sent it off as part of a part sport application, and then you couldn't quite believe what you got back in the post. >> yeah . on monday, my wife >> yeah. on monday, my wife opened the letterbox and she found inside a soft envelope just regular office envelope, which is not the regular one that we get in. usually from the from the passport office which usually is coming. uh in a hard envelope . and when she opened envelope. and when she opened it, she couldn't believe that the actual birth certificate is torn, damaged , and, uh , the torn, damaged, and, uh, the father place of birth, which is israel, was just scribbled out with a blue pen . and the filling with a blue pen. and the filling for that is just very hard because this is my baby was born

here, and she's a british citizen. she is a part of the she's a member of the public, you know, she's she has nothing to do with israel. just just the fact that her father was born in israel, it was a reason for someone to damage her birth certificate and to discriminate her with such an ugly way . her with such an ugly way. >> it's absolutely appalling . >> it's absolutely appalling. and also, it means now that the birth certificate that you had for your child is now invalidated . obviously, this hit invalidated. obviously, this hit the headlines last week and the home office said they would take action. i understand that some people at the private company that processed this application people at the private company that |been;sed this application people at the private company that |been fired his application people at the private company that |been fired .is application people at the private company that |been fired . however, tion people at the private company that |been fired . however, are have been fired. however, are you satisfied overall with the home office's response to this? >> i was surprised to see their rapid , uh, the rapidness how rapid, uh, the rapidness how they dealt with the situation . they dealt with the situation. and i must give a good word to the home office for the speed and fast reaction . and so this

and fast reaction. and so this morning we were issued with a new birth certificate that happily came in the right condition on. and yeah . and we condition on. and yeah. and we were very glad to hear that, uh, home office took the matter in the appropriate , uh, the the appropriate, uh, the appropriate care. and they were looking , uh, appropriate care. and they were looking, uh, into appropriate care. and they were looking , uh, into the private looking, uh, into the private company who is in charge in it. and they fired some people. yeah >> what do you think happened internally? i mean, somebody obviously who's pro—palestinian, just taking a biro to the word israel . israel. >> yeah. so i think maybe the people over there in this private company didn't get to vetted as required by law or they didn't check the background, you know, like if they have any dangerous , uh, they have any dangerous, uh, opinions that they can bring to the workplace. yes. yeah. and today it's happened to me because i'm, uh, i was born in

israel, but tomorrow it can be if someone is not happy with england , they can do the same england, they can do the same for any british citizen. >> and how do you feel as an israel born jew living in london at the moment? i mean, we've seen these reports on anti—semitism, being on the rise. how does it feel to be a jewish couple, both born in israel with young children , israel with young children, deaung israel with young children, dealing with what's been going on in recent months and weeks ? on in recent months and weeks? >> so, uh , the feeling it's very >> so, uh, the feeling it's very hard and we can sometimes , uh, hard and we can sometimes, uh, ourselves, you know , uh, my ourselves, you know, uh, my wife, she, she's like, she bought herself like, uh , bought herself like, uh, self—defence. uh, pepper spray because she don't know if something will, uh , come up and something will, uh, come up and as well, when we going to outing our kids, like, uh , wearing a our kids, like, uh, wearing a cap , like a baseball cap of, uh, cap, like a baseball cap of, uh, above the couple and. yes since

everything is start, we taking our kids, uh, every morning and afternoon. only with the car to school, because we don't want any trouble to happen , any trouble to happen, especially for this. uh you know, sweet kids , they didn't know, sweet kids, they didn't deserve anything bad to happen to them . to them. >> no, of course not. but the idea that your wife is having to take self—defence classes. what? because she is literally walking around in fear of being jumped ? around in fear of being jumped? >> uh , yes. uh, we've been >> uh, yes. uh, we've been seeing, you know, uh, these videos of people in the train chanting from the river to the sea, palestine will be free. it mean free from us. they don't want us. uh, well, and i see these people. i believe they don't want us there. they don't? they they don't want us here as well . well. >> israel. do you have an opinion on the pro—palestinian marches that have taking marches that have been taking place london? saw place in london? we saw protesters light up big with protesters light up big ben with a palestine logo. free a free palestine logo. free gaza. what's your reaction to

that ? that? >> well, um , i didn't see, uh, >> well, um, i didn't see, uh, marches with such a scale when on daily basis , people, muslim on daily basis, people, muslim people , the uyghur people in people, the uyghur people in china persecuting , being sent to china persecuting, being sent to concentration camps. what happened? what's going on in syria for the last 11 years and what's going in in ukraine, right now? where is all this peaceful voices when a jewish blood involved ? the story is blood involved? the story is difference . and obviously i'm difference. and obviously i'm not talking in general, the british public. i do see like people coming to me without warm words and, and they are afraid as well. i'm talking i'm about non—jewish people that i see day to day , they telling me they to day, they telling me they really worry the way that, uh , really worry the way that, uh, england, uh, going to. yeah. >> and you'll be familiar, i'm sure, with what's been going on in the house of commons. uh, the speaken

in the house of commons. uh, the speaker, lindsay hoyle, criticised for obviously selecting that labour amendment to the snp motion calling for a ceasefire. the vote's gone through calling for a ceasefire um, first of all, what's your response to that? in general, these calls for a ceasefire >> so, um, i think as every human being, we all want to aspire to, but we have friends. yeah. people that i know personally have been kidnapped to gaza. okay let's give us our boys and girls back home. they deserve . to have a love of a deserve. to have a love of a family . they deserve to see family. they deserve to see their near and dear and it's as simple as that . and in fact, the simple as that. and in fact, the most of the people that have been kidnapped, they are, uh , been kidnapped, they are, uh, from the area, which is a very left wing and beast, active list in israel. and and these people that got it the worst that can happen to them. so we see

nothing about peace and love is everything is about just hate. yes >> you make a good point there, which i think is sometimes missed that a lot of the people killed on october 7, particularly those who went to the peace concert, would have been people who were quite pro—palestine and people who would have been calling for a two state solution . two state solution. >> yeah , yeah. and not only >> yeah, yeah. and not only that, on the on october the 7th, in the morning, it should be, uh , peace. uh, balloons. uh, the annual balloon festival there every year they used to take a balloons, uh, for sign of peace . balloons, uh, for sign of peace. and a lot of people came especially to this, uh, kibbutz . especially to this, uh, kibbutz. to uh, to release a balloons toward gaza strip, to show them that, to show them that they were looking for peace. and these people have been butchered , raped, murdered , uh, and, uh, , raped, murdered, uh, and, uh, as well kidnapped. >> i mean, to bring it back to domestic matters, obviously, you and your wife and your children

are living here now. are you satisfied that the police are doing enough to protect jews in the uk ? the uk? >> uh, i think the police are trying to do. >> but unfortunately , they're a >> but unfortunately, they're a bit , um, >> but unfortunately, they're a bit, um, stopped by law >> but unfortunately, they're a bit , um, stopped by law about bit, um, stopped by law about what they can do. and speaking privately to the police officers, they telling me we are sorry. we can't do much more and stuff like that. >> israel, when you were personally targeted or your young baby is targeted, i mean, it must bring it home awfully. um, how are you feeling about it all now? because i'd imagine that you and your wife were terribly shaken up by this. >> yeah, we're feeling just the word for it. >> is they're frustrated. we just. we just care . that's the just. we just care. that's the word for it. we don't know what's going on. like the home office supposed to be the most secure place with the most , um, secure place with the most, um, sensitive documents being sent in. so so the person that had my

baby birth certificate have all our details inside of my trousers . size. you know trousers. size. you know everything about me . everything about me. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> and then for that to be sort of abused in that way is really frightening. i just wanted to ask you what your response was to prince william's in to prince william's statement in the don't know if you the week. i don't know if you saw caught it a little saw it. he caught it a little bit of criticism. the heir to the throne for sort of involving himself in geopolitical matters, as you're aware, as i'm sure you're aware, members the royal family are members of the royal family are meant to resolutely impartial meant to be resolutely impartial . praise the . and yet some praise the statement because well as statement because as well as calling peace in gaza and an calling for peace in gaza and an end to the bloodshed, he also, of course , acknowledged the fact of course, acknowledged the fact that hamas had to give up the hostages, for there to be peace. what was your reaction to that royal ? royal intervention? >> well , firstly, i have a lot >> well, firstly, i have a lot of respect to the royal family and i think, uh , his intent to and i think, uh, his intent to do good and of course, we all want the end of this war. >> and but there is a condition

for that just bring them home. simple as that. that is , it simple as that. that is, it could be very easy just bring them home. they deserve to live a normal, quiet life in this, uh, agricultural communities around, uh, gaza strip. and i'm assuming by the second they will get home, everything will be quiet and i think the prince have the power to aim his speech more toward, uh, hamas leaders and the other terrorist organisations in gaza strip . organisations in gaza strip. just ask him one simple question .bnng just ask him one simple question . bring them home. >> okay. i think that's a great point on which to end. thank you very much indeed. well, thank you very much indeed to israel. it should be pointed out that i did conduct that interview a couple of days ago. so it was before lee anderson made his comments. otherwise, i would of

course asked him about them. lots more to come in the next houn lots more to come in the next hour. going be joined by hour. i'm going to be joined by the deputy pm dowden, and the deputy pm oliver dowden, and i'll the former i'll be speaking to the former leader unite close friend leader of unite and close friend of corbyn. read len of jeremy corbyn. read len mccluskey. anywhere

welcome back. so much more to come in the next hour. we've got deputy pm oliver dowden after suspending lee anderson . are the suspending lee anderson. are the tories about to suffer their first defection to reform and i'll be speaking to read len mccluskey in just a minute for his take on starmer's leadership and the great divide. troubling labour over the israel—hamas conflict . but first, here's the conflict. but first, here's the news with pip tomson . news with pip tomson. >> good morning. it is 10:00. i'm pip tomson in the gb newsroom. the prime minister has been accused of harbouring a

extremists in his party, with the labour leader saying it's time for him to get a grip. now this comes after lee anderson, the former deputy chair, was suspended from the tory party after he said london mayor sadiq khan was controlled by islamists . sir keir starmer, the labour leader, says rishi sunak weakness allowed the mp to act with impunity . the mp says he with impunity. the mp says he has fully accepted the whip being removed and will continue to support government efforts to call out extremism in all its forms . another debate on gaza forms. another debate on gaza will be held in the commons after that chaotic vote on wednesday. the snp says it will take up the speaker, sir lindsay hoyle, offer of a meaningful debate on a new ceasefire motion . there was uproar after he allowed mps to vote on a labour amendment , allowed mps to vote on a labour amendment, leading to calls for his resignation . snp westminster his resignation. snp westminster leader stephen flynn says his party will seek to move the debate forward . that will push debate forward. that will push parliament to support concrete

actions . the uk has launched actions. the uk has launched another round of airstrikes overnight against houthi targets in yemen , in a joint operation in yemen, in a joint operation with united states. 18 sites were hit across eight locations. the ministry of defence says precision guided bombs were used against drones and launchers. it follows a surge in attacks on commercial ships in the red sea. it's the fourth time the uk has been involved in strikes against the iranian backed group since mid—january . donald trump is mid—january. donald trump is another step closer to becoming the republicans presidential nomination. it's after he beat nikki haley in the south carolina republican contest, claiming 60% of the votes. it's his fourth straight primary win, despite being engulfed in legal problems and south carolina being nikki haley's home state, a local action group has won their fight over plans to house asylum seekers in a town in cumbria. initial plans were to

use eight homes in the millom area to hold 40 migrants, despite severe housing shortages. it sparked backlash in the community, with police having to increase patrolling after one of the houses was vandalised . in a letter seen by vandalised. in a letter seen by gb news, the home office has now ruled that the site is not suitable for asylum seekers. dean myers, from millom communication action group, exclusively told gb news that the community is relieved the community has just been totally confused. >> we didn't know who was actually coming into the hmos . actually coming into the hmos. uh, no one consulted us and it just sparked a bit of anger. i think for the latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen , or go to gbnews.com screen, or go to gbnews.com slash alerts. >> now it's back to . camilla. >> now it's back to. camilla. >> now it's back to. camilla. >> thank you pip. well welcome back to the camilla tominey show. still lots more to come

in. just a minute. i'm going to be joined by the deputy pm oliver dowden. does still oliver dowden. does he still stand sir lindsay hoyle after stand by sir lindsay hoyle after this chaos in the this week's chaos in the commons? and i'll, of course, be getting his take on lee anderson's suspension, i'll be asking former unite, asking the former head of unite, len the len mccluskey, where the starmer's palestine problem will continue for continue to be a headache for laboun continue to be a headache for labour. if jeremy corbyn can labour. and if jeremy corbyn can make rock the boat make a comeback to rock the boat ahead the next general ahead of the next general election, joined by election, i'll also be joined by former foreign secretary sir malcolm we mark two malcolm rifkind, as we mark two years from russia, years on from the russia, ukraine conflict the ukraine conflict following the death russian opposition death of russian opposition leader navalny. what can leader alexei navalny. what can the do to stop putin and the west do to stop putin and blanche zaf from the lone charge action group, will be telling us how the row with hmrc has caused some people to take their own lives. could this be the next post office scandal ? lives. could this be the next post office scandal? i'm joined now in the studio by former general secretary of the unite union, len mccluskey. len, lovely to see you. this morning. thank you for coming in. let's have a chat about starmer, because i know you're not his biggest have been biggest fan and you have been quite of the labour quite critical of the labour leader past. rated leader in the past. you rated him as in 2021. how do you

him as poor in 2021. how do you rate now? rate him now? >> um, even are i mean , >> um, even poorer are i mean, he's so far ahead in the polls. >> well, and i'm sure his advisors are telling him that he's doing the right thing. >> the problem is, of course, he's been attacking wing of he's been attacking my wing of the labour party. i've been a member of the labour party for 54 of the 54 years. the left wing of the party expelling people and creating an atmosphere of fear within the labour party. that is brought about a terrible, terrible divide which is not needed. >> hang on a minute though, len. let's not rewrite history here, because wasn't it jeremy corbyn? you're very close friend. the man with whom you've written this poetry book, which we'll be discussing just moment. um discussing in just a moment. um jeremy one that jeremy corbyn is the one that divided party, isn't divided the labour party, isn't he? one caused mps he? he's the one who caused mps like luciana berger because she was jewish leave the party. was jewish to leave the party. he a huge legacy of he left a huge legacy of anti—semitism within the party that starmer has done a good job of cleaning up. >> that's simply isn't true. i know the media have tried to, uh, produce this imagery of

under corbyn. labour was an anti—semitic party, but even the hrc who investigated labour and they were investigating an accusation that labour was riddled with anti—semitism, they found that that wasn't true. it's the media. >> and jewish labour mps were saying it, weren't they? >> no. i mean , lots of they >> no. i mean, lots of they were. well, lots of luciana berger was saying it. >> margaret hodge was saying it. lots jewish labour mps. ian lots of jewish labour mps. ian austin, who's got jewish heritage. these people have to leave the party. >> camilla, you're about >> camilla, you're talking about right labour mps who had right wing labour mps who had a specific agenda. i think. no, we're talking about right wing labour mps who had an agenda to undermine the corbyn leadership. but why do you think corbyn had a problem with jewish labour mps leaving his party? because they were right wing. >> they were right wing . >> they were right wing. >> they were right wing. >> they were right wing. >> they he had he had a problem with the merger, was right wing . with the merger, was right wing. he went and joined a camilla. camilla, let me answer your questions . it'll work better questions. it'll work better that way. reality is that he

that way. the reality is that he had a problem with a number of right wing mps who sought to undermine his leadership. that's a reality . now, of course, the a reality. now, of course, the whole anti—semitism ism was examined and investigated by the ehrc and read their report , and ehrc and read their report, and they made it clear that there was no inherent anti—semitism within the labour party . corbyn within the labour party. corbyn had condemned anti—semite . he's had condemned anti—semite. he's fought against anti—semitism all his life. >> okay, so he may have condemned anti—semitism , and i condemned anti—semitism, and i did hear him repeatedly refer to himself as somebody who has fought racism all his life. why didn't he condemn hamas and hezbollah? i mean, he must regret describing hamas as friends now , now that he's seen friends now, now that he's seen them rape and murder , you'll them rape and murder, you'll have to 1400 israelis. >> you'll have to bring jeremy on your programme and ask them. well, i've already i've i've already condemned hamas. i've condemned also the hypocrisy, the hypocrisy of everybody who

wants to condemn one side. but leaves israel, the israeli government, completely free from any condemnation, despite the fact that they break international law with the settlement . it's in occupied settlement. it's in occupied territory and what's going on in gaza at the moment is just outrageous . it's slaughter, it's outrageous. it's slaughter, it's evil . and those that are saying evil. and those that are saying that evil will only prosper, evil will only prosper if good men and women stand silent. evil will only prosper if good men and women stand silent . and men and women stand silent. and i'll tell you this, camilla history will judge those who've been complicit in this evil and those who've stood on the sidelines and stayed silent. >> but does any does any degree of sort of tragedy in gaza justify projecting onto big ben the words from the river to the sea? palestine will be free when it is so deeply offensive to israeli and jewish people. >> the reality, of course , is >> the reality, of course, is that from the river to the sea is a slogan that seeks to create

. a palestine that is viable, which is international law. i think the idea an israelis well, when you say jews , you talk when when you say jews, you talk when you say jews from the mat when no , that is river to the sea. no, that is river to the sea. that isn't true because hamas is founding statement wants to wipe jews off the face of the earth. hamas hamas doesn't speak for everyone. they certainly don't speak for all jewish people, and they don't speak, for example, for the palestine authority. the reality of hamas are the realities, you know, they're not they're not the do you want hamas to be deposed in, i say that if we got rid of the settlements, the illegal settlements, the illegal settlements, and created a viable palestine, which is international law, then hamas would vanish anyway, because because we would have a proper recognition. let me put this to you. our government believes in the two state solution. if it's not just lip service, then why don't they recognise the state

of palestine? now? i've been a listener to david cameron with some interesting comments, because they're prescribed terrorists to down their weapons and they want the hostages to be freed immediately. >> i mean, surely you support that? >> absolutely, 100. i also support what what international law has been saying for over 50 years, condemning israel for the occupation of settlements that are illegal. >> camilla, take your point. >> camilla, take your point. >> i would just ask you and your viewers , of course, they haven't viewers, of course, they haven't occupied gaza since 2005 to look at the map, the map that was drawn up in 1947 that mapped out was drawn up in 1967. support by international law of what israel is and what palestine is. look now at that. when israel left gaza in 2005, they left them with the infrastructure to really make something great of that country. >> we've had claims of genocide, which don't seem to be borne out in the population statistics for

gaza and indeed that area, because of course, the population has gone up. so all of this talk about israeli occupation, i take your point on settlements, but the israelis haven't been there. well, you can almost 20 years. have they become l.a? >> you cannot take my point on settlements and just leave it at that. let's have a proper debate. no, let's have there's lots of israelis and jews that don't think there should have been settlements. >> oh, absolutely. absolutely absolutely. by the way, we can talk about by the way, both here, both here in britain, uh, all all jewish, in fact, the majority of the jewish community are in britain. >> i think are appalled at the slaughter . slaughter. >> that's when you said you have in mossad the most sophisticated organisation in the world, much more so than m15, m16 , cia. are more so than m15, m16, cia. are we really led to believe that they didn't know this was happening? what do you mean by that? that you think that mossad knew that the october the 7th attacks were going to happen? >> there is a conspiracy theory, not that i particularly support

it, that said, the idea that mossad and the egyptians, of course, say that they told mossad something was happening and that the idea that mossad is highly sophisticated security , highly sophisticated security, um, system didn't know was happening is difficult to believe. >> then you're veering into the territory of that conspiracy theory of suggesting that the israelis knew about october 7 and let it happen so that they could then attack. that's precisely you don't buy into that? >> no. and that's precisely why you've quoted something that i was making the point that people are raising that issue. they're also raising the issue that did hamas not know that that type of an attack was going to bring the incredible response from , um, incredible response from, um, israel in the way that it is, i.e, hamas is playing games as well. there's all kinds of issues. what i do know is that there are thousands and thousands of women and children being slaughtered at the moment in gaza. yes. and we're standing

around playing games in parliament. actually, there's a report today to say that they may be quite close to a six week ceasefire. >> yes . well, what we also there >> yes. well, what we also there are women aren't there, in gaza and tunnels. hamas tunnels who are probably still being raped and tortured as we speak. >> the reality is that the only way to resolve this issue is for the international community, in particular america and britain, to insist that netanyahu almost an international criminal, sell himself dismay , mantles the himself dismay, mantles the settlements withdraws to the 1967 green line and allows the creation of a palestinian viable state. that's the way to resolve it, you said at the beginning of the conversation that you thought it was wrong for the likes of corbyn, and i assume you. >> so abbott, mcdonnell, mcdonald to be expelled from the labour party. would you like to see them back in then? >> of course. i mean, so if there's a sort of left wing caucus that tries to challenge

starmer either now or , or if he starmer either now or, or if he becomes prime minister will you lend them your support ? lend them your support? >> would you like to depose starmer? >> it's not a question of deposing starmer. it's a question about . starmer has been question about. starmer has been elected on a radical programme thatis elected on a radical programme that is completely ditched now. he fooled everyone , untruthful. he fooled everyone, untruthful. the reality is what kind of labour government do we want? we want one that changes for the good of ordinary labour government that was proposed by jeremy corbyn was spectacular . jeremy corbyn was spectacular. >> nearly annihilated in the 2019 el tel. >> don't rule out, don't rule out 2017 . 13 million people out 2017. 13 million people voted for corbyn. more people, camilla, more people wanted bofis camilla, more people wanted boris johnson is the prime minister. is an is an interesting fact for you. more people voted for jeremy corbyn in england and voted for tony. tony blair. the fact of the matter is that 2019 was all about brexit. what are you saying? >> you object to starmer because you think he's some sort of thatcherite? >> well, there's no doubt that

he's been captured by the establishment and the right wing of the and he won't do of the party, and he won't do anything for ordinary working people. len, just have people. len, let's just have a quick word about this book. people. len, let's just have a qui�*veryird about this book. people. len, let's just have a qui�*very briefly. it this book. people. len, let's just have a qui�*very briefly. len,; book. people. len, let's just have a qui�*very briefly. len, you've >> very briefly. len, you've written book jeremy written this book with jeremy pullman, you're both poets or pullman, so you're both poets or at admirer of poetry. at least admirer of poetry. >> much admirers of >> we're very much admirers of poetry, is an effort to poetry, and this is an effort to say to people, look, poetry is not people. it's not just for posh people. it's for everyone. so embrace poetry because it's got a fantastic emotional pull. >> i can agree with you on that. len mccluskey, thank you very much indeed for coming in this morning . really lovely to speak morning. really lovely to speak to you won't want to to you. well you won't want to miss come in miss what's still to come in today's because in just today's show because in just a minute, sir malcolm rifkind will join i'll be speaking to join me and i'll be speaking to oliver pm, to oliver dowden, the deputy pm, to find why the government find out why the government hasn't hoyer's hasn't pushed the lindy hoyer's resignation to and get the reaction to lee anderson's suspension. so tuned

>> you're listening to gb news radio .

radio. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. i'm delighted to be joined now by deputy pm oliver dowden, the conservative mp hertsmere. mr dowden , mp for hertsmere. mr dowden, lovely to see you this morning. thank you for joining lovely to see you this morning. thank you forjoining me. let's thank you for joining me. let's kick off with lee anderson then. is he is he an islamophobe as far as you're concerned . far as you're concerned. >> no, i don't believe that . lee >> no, i don't believe that. lee anderson is an islamophobe . anderson is an islamophobe. >> but words matter. suspending him. >> their choice of words that he used the choice of words that he used the choice of words that he used was not appropriate. he was given the opportunity to apologise, didn't take that opportunity, and therefore the chief whip took the decision to remove the whip from him. but why would you remove the whip from him when you say he isn't an islamophobe? >> i mean surely it's a free country. he can express himself how he likes. he said that he thought he expressed himself clumsily, but as far as i can tell, he hasn't said anything really. that suella braverman, the secretary has the former home secretary has said . well i think the

said. well i think the difference between what what he said and what what suella said was about specifically, uh , was about specifically, uh, targeting one individual. >> and believe me, i have huge problems with sadiq khan. i experience it pretty much every day. his war on the motorist or his failure to build houses in london because of his absurd affordability requirements. but linking the two through religion, and i think that's something that lee himself has accepted. he was given that opportunity to apologise and he didn't do so. so the whip has been suspended. >> why wasn't the whip suspended from zac goldsmith during the, uh, 2016 campaign? or at least why wasn't he sanctioned by the tory party when he made very similar remarks about sadiq khan? he said about the london mayor that he was giving cover to extremist acts. he said sadiq khan had quotes given platforms oxygen and even cover over and over again to those who seek to do our police and capital harm. he then suggested that khan had

quotes , tried to silence quotes, tried to silence questions about his links to extremists by shamelessly accusing anyone who raises them of being islamophobe nick, zac goldsmith has been far more strident in his criticism of sadiq khan's links to quote extreme lists than lee anderson, so why wasn't he remove moved of the whip and sanctioned by the tory party? he was running as your london mayor at the time . your london mayor at the time. >> well, i'll be going back quite a long way. and you're you're testing my memory of what happened during that campaign. >> i told you what happened. >> i told you what happened. >> the quotes that you use, the what i would say about the quotes that you've used there and relayed to me is that there is this difference between a by the way, i support robust political debate and robust exchange of views and robust questions being asked, as opposed to linking specifically to this this point about sadiq khan's mates and the concern

about the implication of that as i say, i do not believe that lee anderson was was motivated by islamophobia, but there is a concern about that, that language he was given the opportunity to apologise, by his own admission . he said that it own admission. he said that it was clumsy language , and his was clumsy language, and his failure to do so to led the whip being suspended from him . being suspended from him. >> but i'm just pointing out the inconsistency in the disciplinary . here that disciplinary process. here that zac goldsmith said. actually, in stronger terms , that sadiq khan stronger terms, that sadiq khan was linked to extremist posts than lee anderson has and yet he faced no sanction. is it maybe that you feel that lee anderson isn't quite the right fit for the tory party, that he's a bit rough around the edges, that he speaks his mind and it's all a bit too sort of, uh, on piste for the constituency and indeed for the constituency and indeed for the constituency and indeed for the tory public. >> no, nothing could be further from the truth than that. and actually i have great sympathy andindeed

actually i have great sympathy and indeed agree with the underlying sentiments, although i wouldn't choose their language from both. um suella braverman and from lee anderson. you and i have talked before about how we grew up in hertfordshire and the values of the country that we know and love. i don't think any of us would have imagined that in our lifetimes. debates in parliament were being threatened by threats of violence against members of parliament, and this forms part of a chain that we have seen, whether it's jews in my constituency afraid to walk the streets because of their showing symbols of their religion , or it's those hate religion, or it's those hate filled marches where people still walk alongside them on the marches, but don't call it out. and we, all of us, of course, there is a law enforcement response to this, but there is also underlying questions about the society we live the sort of society we live in and all our responsibility to and all of our responsibility to call of conduct out. call this kind of conduct out. >> know, mr dowden, it's >> i know, but mr dowden, it's all very well giving a commentary what's on. commentary of what's going on. we're with what's we're all familiar with what's going saw ben lit going on. we all saw big ben lit

up the words from the river up with the words from the river to the sea. palestine will be free a few days ago. what are you actually going to about you actually going to do about it? well that was totally unacceptable using that that clearly anti—semitic trope . clearly anti—semitic trope. >> and i'm i was waiting for a while to come to on your interview, and i was listen to your interview with with len mccluskey. there still seems to be sort of equivocation be some sort of equivocation about that. it is. it is undoubtedly . the undoubtedly anti—semitic. the police are obviously operationally independent, i operationally independent, but i know secretary has know that the home secretary has taken up with the police. taken this up with the police. what would in relation to what i would say in relation to a of these, and i often find a lot of these, and i often find myself discussing with myself discussing this with constituents just because immediate action isn't taken doesn't mean action isn't being taken. so for example, it is a case that there are six. there have been over 600 arrests. there are over 200 ongoing live investigations in relation to some of these . these offensive some of these. these offensive conduct , for example, one of conduct, for example, one of them has been publicised. these people that were wearing the parachutist s insignia on their their clothing. so action is

being taken. it's not always obvious that that is being taken immediately . immediately. >> well, but shouldn't it have been taken immediately in the case of projecting on to big ben?i case of projecting on to big ben? i mean, that is probably one of the most recognisable london landmarks. shouldn't it have been taken at the time? i mean, shouldn't the police have stopped it have stopped? >> i totally rejected i totally agree with you and they should have done. the home have done. and the home secretary has made that point to the police. obviously we in the police. obviously we live in a and i think it is a society, and i think it is right that the society we live in, society where police in, a society where the police are operationally independent, in, a society where the police are operat to ally independent, in, a society where the police are operat to ally ithe pendent, in, a society where the police are operatto ally ithe decisions they have to take the decisions as conduct their as to how they conduct their operations. home operations. but the home secretary left the police in secretary has left the police in no doubt at all that they should take action in respect of this. >> must frustrating >> but this must be frustrating for we read in the for you because we read in the sunday today that this sunday express today that this operation police operation to police these marches million. marches is costing 30 million. i had former colleague suella had your former colleague suella braverman in the studio a few weeks ago saying the police have the stop this and they the powers to stop this and they aren't using them. so much aren't using them. so how much pressure is prime minister pressure is the prime minister and piling on the police and others piling on the police to say, use this? these powers

stop these marches, stop people from chanting these anti—semitic slogans in the streets, because i'm afraid the government does quite look quite weak on this. we had tower bridge closed down yesterday. got these yesterday. we've got these offensive slogans projected onto the big ben. why aren't the government doing more? why aren't you forcing the police to use the powers they have ? use the powers they have? >> well, i think there's two elements. so one is that, uh , elements. so one is that, uh, putting pressure on the police , putting pressure on the police, uh, to take action as i said to you in my previous answer genuinely is the case that the police are taking lots of action. over 600 arrests. there is always more for them to do. and we're, we're we're pushing for that. in addition, we are looking gaps where there are looking at gaps where there are insufficient so, insufficient powers. so, for example, clambering onto war memorials and, uh, and making sure that that is clearly illegal, there is a more fundamental question. there is an an issue of debate. i do have some sympathy for people that say we should just ban these marches altogether. i think we

have freedom of expression in this country. so i wouldn't favour banning the marches altogether. but i do favour a robust policing . as i say, robust policing. as i say, sometimes don't that , sometimes you don't see that, uh, immediately, but it is . uh, immediately, but it is. those people are being held to account. i think what you'll see in coming weeks months account. i think what you'll see in more oming weeks months account. i think what you'll see in more and|g weeks months account. i think what you'll see in more and moreeks months account. i think what you'll see in more and more of months account. i think what you'll see in more and more of these nonths is more and more of these prosecutions finding their way into court, and people will see there action that flowing there is action that is flowing from it. >> okay. final question mr >> okay. final question on mr anderson. dowd, and you anderson. mr dowd, and would you like join reform? like to see him join reform? nigel farage he's welcome nigel farage says he's welcome there open arms . there with open arms. >> no, i certainly wouldn't . and >> no, i certainly wouldn't. and i think that all of us who share the, the concerns and the anger about how, uh, there are what is happening in our democracy right now, need a government that is robust in response to it. i don't have confidence given what you saw last week, the meeting that keir starmer had with the speaken that keir starmer had with the speaker, uh, him urging him to change parliament procedure, i don't have confidence that there will be that robustness from

keir starmer. in the end, that's the choice. rishi sunak about reform keir starmer. i reform or keir starmer. and i think don't want to see think if you don't want to see together, you don't want to together, if you don't want to see lee anderson go to reform, um, do then? um, what should he do then? >> going to be allowed >> is he going to be allowed back into the conservative party if he shows more contrition? >> that's matter for the >> well, that's a matter for the chief whip. but we've set out the reasons why the whip withdrawn was failure withdrawn was, was that failure to appoint size? that's a matter you can't rule out him returning, the whip returning, having the whip returned , and he may have the returned, and he may have the whip returned . whip returned. >> if he apologises? >> will he? if he apologises? >> will he? if he apologises? >> i certainly i, i, i certainly wouldn't rule that out but that's a matter for the chief whip. okay >> mr dowden, thank you very much joining me this much indeed for joining me this morning . coming i'm morning. coming up next, i'm going to be joined by thatcher's former minister major's former minister and major's foreign secretary, sir malcolm rifkind. two years on the rifkind. two years on from the start russia—ukraine rifkind. two years on from the start and russia—ukraine rifkind. two years on from the start and followingzraine rifkind. two years on from the start and following the e rifkind. two years on from the start and following the death conflict and following the death of putin's alexei of putin's nemesis alexei navalny, the west be navalny, should the west be playing a more active role in this conflict? don't anywhere

radio.

>> welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. i'm delighted to be joined now by sir malcolm rifkind, former foreign secretary from 1995 to 1997, but an mp for a lot, lot longer than that. sir malcolm, lovely you. thank you. lovely to see you. thank you. two on from the ukraine two years on from the ukraine invasion. hard to believe actually two years on. what do you think is the prospect of peace there? >> well, i think you have to start by saying what does putin privately think? what did he intend started this intend when he started this ghastly years ago? he ghastly war two years ago? he thought would be all over thought it would be all over within a and a week and within a week and a week and a half. it's not even a war. a special military operation. varne the phrase used. it's varne was the phrase used. it's been total disaster for the been a total disaster for the ukrainians, it's been even ukrainians, but it's been even greater disaster for putin because ends up having been because he ends up having been humiliated by weaker country. humiliated by a weaker country. yes. able to actually stop yes. being able to actually stop the russians and indeed reverse some but also, some of their gains. but also, this was all about nato and the question nato membership. question of nato membership. what sweden finland what happens? sweden and finland , who have neutral for 150

, who have been neutral for 150 years, now members of nato. years, are now members of nato. >> nato now strengthened . >> nato now strengthened. >> nato now strengthened. >> well, baltic sea is now a >> well, the baltic sea is now a nato sea with only a very small russian coast . nato sea with only a very small russian coast. i think of the gas one of most gas industry, one of the most important industries for the country gazprom, the country. gazprom, one of the biggest companies the world, biggest companies in the world, is bankruptcy. 80% is approaching bankruptcy. 80% of revenue has been lost . of its revenue has been lost. >> you. although the >> agree with you. although the russian economy is booming only because military expansion, because of military expansion, that help ordinary that doesn't help ordinary russians. read today russians. i mean, i read today 7.5% of gdp being spent on defences in russia, which is virtually double the defence expenditure, which shows how successful the ukrainians are being . okay, so we congratulate being. okay, so we congratulate the ukrainians for being successful. said that , successful. having said that, we've seen putin basically laugh in of the western world in the face of the western world with think, state with the, i think, state sponsored assassination of alexei navalny. how does that change picture? change the picture? >> the of the >> well, the question of the assassination of navalny is not spitting in the face of the world. it's spitting in the face of russian people. yeah, of the russian people. yeah, because he did because he because he did that because he was frightened navalny. when because he did that because he was frigiwaszd navalny. when because he did that because he was fringas free navalny. when because he did that because he was fringas free to avalny. when because he did that because he was fringas free to operate ilhen because he did that because he was fringas free to operate inzn because he did that because he was fringas free to operate in a navalny was free to operate in a normal political huge normal political way, huge numbers were

numbers of people were supporting and putin began supporting him. and putin began to panic. and this is a sign . to panic. and this is a sign. yet all these things that putin does, ultimately they're sign does, ultimately they're a sign of weakness . yes. like of his weakness. yes. like having have what is in fact having to have what is in fact a phoney election. why does he have to go through this farce of an election when everybody knows nobody else to stand nobody else is able to stand against why? because he against him? why? because he likes that is a likes to pretend that he is a democratic leader that has legitimacy russian legitimacy and the russian pubuc legitimacy and the russian public they know public aren't stupid. they know perfectly public aren't stupid. they know peralthough we haven't >> although we haven't had a uprising in response to navalny, because can't have an because we can't have an uprising obviously 200 uprising because obviously 200 or people were arrested or 300 people were arrested in moscow morning after moscow the morning after i remember us speaking before on this show, and you were talking about confident that about being quite confident that putin deposed at some putin would be deposed at some point. i mean, we see putin's reign ending either with him being or indeed in being deposed or indeed dying in office. what do you think the prospect is now? not least because think since spoke because i think since we spoke prigozhin's obviously being assassinated well all assassinated as well. well all these had happened are these things had happened are not putin's strength. not signs of putin's strength. >> they seem to be in one >> i know they seem to be in one sense, there are signs of sense, but there are signs of weakness he to behave weakness that he has to behave in way. blowing up one of

in this way. blowing up one of his opponents in an aircraft at killing who's killing a guy who's already locked arctic prison. locked up in an arctic prison. now, the fact that he has to go beyond dispose of beyond that and dispose of them by murder, shows by murder, yeah, that shows ultimately weakness. now ultimately his weakness. now putin on for a while. i putin can hang on for a while. i mean, russia doesn't have a politburo it had in the politburo like it had in the soviet days when they got rid of khrushchev very easily. but the people around know that he people around putin know that he has not been able to deliver this easy conflict that would destroy ukraine and restore them to being part of the russian federation. now, i'm not underestimating the problem the ukrainians have, because they are a far smaller country. russia is a country of 130 million people. ukraine has about 30 million. uh, when the war began, ukrainian army. do you know how big it was? about 20, 30,000. it's now got over half a million troops. yes. it's now the most powerful army in europe . yep. europe. yep. >> uh, so you seem quite confident in terms of numbers. president zelenskyy his president zelenskyy and his troops russians out. troops forcing the russians out. or you think ultimately or do you think ultimately they'll have to be a carving up of territory? >> well, i don't what will

>> well, i don't know what will happen so happen ultimately, because so many but many options are possible. but what increasingly likely is what is increasingly likely is that the ukrainians, in the short terms , are going to be not short terms, are going to be not able to recover all the territory they lost over the last few years because it started with you occupation of crimea 2014. they don't seem to have the military strength to do that. but what we have seen over the last year is very significant for russia as well the last year is very sigfor cant for russia as well the last year is very sigfor ukraine. russia as well the last year is very sigfor ukraine. the a as well the last year is very sigfor ukraine. the ukrainians as for ukraine. the ukrainians have been superb defending have been superb at defending their own territory , much more their own territory, much more difficult, it's always known difficult, and it's always known to people to actually to military people to actually advance and occupy your enemy's territory requires far more troops , far more weapons. troops, far more weapons. whereas to defend you, just simply dig in and stop. now. that's what the russians have been doing over the whole of the last year. it may be the ukrainians have to a bit of ukrainians have to do a bit of that as well. sure. and then it will be clear to putin that he has chance of occupying any has no chance of occupying any further ukrainian further kind of ukrainian territory. move territory. let's just move to domestic matters way, domestic matters in a way, domestic matters in a way, domestic influenced by domestic matters influenced by foreign domestic matters influenced by forethe scenes the commons >> the scenes in the commons last week, yes, the scenes of from to sea,

from the river to the sea, palestine will three being palestine will be three being projected ben . i mean, projected onto big ben. i mean, if you don't mind me saying you're jewish you're quite a prominent jewish former , did that former politician, how did that feel? that on on the feel? seeing that on on the mother of all parliaments? >> personal view >> well, my own personal view is, of all, the police is, first of all, the police have to be allowed operational freedom. they made a freedom. i think they made a mistake this occasion because mistake on this occasion because not of the river to not just because of the river to the sea slogan. think anybody the sea slogan. i think anybody attempting put a slogan on attempting to put a slogan on the big ben for the walls of big ben for political reasons, whatever the subject is, if the police have the means stop them doing the means to stop them doing that, should do that right that, they should do that right away, regardless of the subject matter. that's part away, regardless of the subject m'the'. that's part away, regardless of the subject m'the building that's part away, regardless of the subject m'the building parliament. away, regardless of the subject m'tnotyuilding parliament. away, regardless of the subject m't not thereig parliament. away, regardless of the subject m't not there to parliament. away, regardless of the subject m't not there to advertise ent. it's not there to advertise political slogans. whatever the subject. of the subject. on the question of the house of commons, look, we know that if you have a free parliament, not just in britain, but in real democracies, parliaments sometimes misbehave . parliaments sometimes misbehave. mistakes are made. people behave in a way that doesn't look very impressive to general impressive to the general public. always the public. remember always the alternative. the alternative is the russian duma. yes, the chinese parliament, where you have hundreds of people. they sit like dummies. they all

sit there like dummies. they all vote exactly the same way. never a word of criticism. beautifully behaved. does that exactly the kind of house of commons we want so. okay. except that occasionally it's overdone. most of the time parliament is there to represent not the government, but the public as a whole. and there will be deep disagreements and at times of high emotion, which this obviously is. >> that's what times of high emotions during 80s, you emotions during the 80s, you know, under thatcher, precisely emotions during the 80s, you know,divisions. atcher, precisely emotions during the 80s, you know,divisions. buter, precisely emotions during the 80s, you know,divisions. but these cisely emotions during the 80s, you know,divisions. but these this.y deep divisions. but these this threatening behaviour towards mps and particularly the notion of jewish mps feeling threatened , or at least mps in constituencies that have a lot of jewish voters feeling threatened, must sort of professionally worry you, but also personally worry you? >> well, of course, that is hugely distasteful and hugely concerning . remember the concerning. remember the increase in anti—muslim incidents in britain has gone up 300. yes, over the same period of time, not as much as anti—semites ism, but most of the anti—semitism is actually anti the israeli government.

yes, it is a distant difference of view, very deeply held as to israel government and israel's policies . and that is inevitably policies. and that is inevitably what causes high emotions on both sides and what we all need to do, particularly in a country like britain, which is famous for its tolerance. i mean, london is the most tolerant capital city in europe and in the wider world there are a lot of will say that, of people will say that, including from other including people from other countries. has be countries. so that has to be maintained. and there is risk maintained. and there is a risk not not general public. the not not the general public. the vast majority of british people remain despising the bigots and zealots , whichever side of the zealots, whichever side of the argument they come from . argument they come from. >> um, is netanyahu a problem for israel moving forward with the question about proportionality, should he go? well that's for the israelis. >> but we know already that something like 80% of israelis believe he should go . and i believe he should go. and i think what will happen , he will think what will happen, he will remain in power during this penod remain in power during this period of the fighting when the fighting stops and will stop, fighting stops and it will stop, whether it's days, or whether it's a days, weeks or even couple months, it will

even a couple of months, it will stop. then the war coalition will up and although he will break up and although he will break up and although he will refuse to resign , remember will refuse to resign, remember what happened when he tried to bnng what happened when he tried to bring forward these judicial reforms? half a million israelis in week after week, in the street week after week, month after month, demonstrating it will be twice large. and it will be twice as large. and what they're sensible? they what if they're sensible? they will demanding will be demanding is not netanyahu. go. it will netanyahu. you must go. it will be there must be a be netanyahu. there must be a general election. if you think you have the support of the israelis, have an election, and we'll find out whether we'll all find out whether you're right or wrong. much more difficult to refuse. difficult for him to refuse. >> very, very quick >> then final very, very quick question. brief question. if you could be brief as possible, sir malcolm, talking of elections, we're looking donald trump looking to the us. donald trump has haley has done very well in haley state yesterday, joe biden too old to run again. >> i don't believe this stuff. you know , first of all, henry you know, first of all, henry kissinger lived till he was 100 and his brain was 100% clear right? throughout i know biden, i don't know him well. i met him a few years ago. biden, i think, has been a damn good president in very difficult circumstances, even. if forgive me, if the even. and if forgive me, if the alternative trump. alternative is donald trump.

yes, other yes, there's almost any other candidate vote for candidate i would vote for rather donald trump. rather than donald trump. and biden high my list. >> on that note, sir, to malcolm rifkind, thank you very much indeed for joining rifkind, thank you very much indeed forjoining me this indeed for joining me this morning. you. up next, i'm morning. thank you. up next, i'm going speaking to former going to be speaking to former defence secretary and gb news presenter portillo

waiting for you, and then they grab you're listening to gb news radio . radio. >> yes . >> yes. >> yes. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. blanche, zaf from the loan charge action group will be in the studio with me very shortly to discuss hmrc is making to discuss how hmrc is making life a misery for a group of workers facing unexpected tax bills. but first, let's have a chat with former defence secretary my fellow gb news secretary and my fellow gb news host michael . portillo. he's up host michael. portillo. he's up at 11. mike first of all, before you tell me who you've got on the show today, i would be intrigued to find out what you made of the events in the

commons last week with sir lindsay hoyle almost facing the chop. >> um, i was well, obviously i think lindsay hoyle made a mistake and i think the particular mistake was particular mistake he made was when raised him the when they raised with him the question members of question that members of parliament were being intimidated. that was intimidated. he thought that was a give way change a reason to give way and change the procedures the house. the procedures of the house. i think his reaction should have been the opposite. he should have said precisely because intimidation here. we intimidation is in play here. we have sure that do not have to make sure that we do not change procedures of the change the procedures of the house if we house because of course, if we give to intimidation, there give in to intimidation, there will be more intimidation. so that's got it wrong. >> couldn't agree more now tell us who you've got coming up at 11. >> well, uh, just picking up on that. it was interesting that the speaker said one thing, and the speaker said one thing, and the clerk of the house said another. we've had a row between, kemi badenoch and between, uh kemi badenoch and henry staunton, who was the chairman post office. chairman of the post office. i want to look into the relations between people and between elected people and officials seem to officials who now seem to be slagging in slagging each other off in pubuc slagging each other off in public fairly routine sort public in a fairly routine sort of way. i'm also very intrigued by is playing in by a movie that is playing in russia. it is a satire on the repression occurred under

repression that occurred under the era. amazingly, repression that occurred under the film era. amazingly, repression that occurred under the film has era. amazingly, repression that occurred under the film has not amazingly, repression that occurred under the film has not beenzingly, repression that occurred under the film has not been banned and the film has not been banned and the are absolutely the theatres are absolutely packed with russians wanting to see film and one other see this film and one other thing i thought i'd look into today, actually, in a packed programme, the royal programme, is the royal navy recently launched a trident, supposedly nuclear deterrent missile , and it fell a few feet missile, and it fell a few feet from where it was launched, flopped into the sea. another terrible embarrassment for the royal navy. do we have a functioning nuclear deterrent ? functioning nuclear deterrent? >> very good question. looking forward to all of that. from 11 with michael portillo. well in just a minute, as i've said, i'm going to be speaking to blanche zapf. she's a spokesperson for the loan charge action group. you'll have heard about this. you'll have heard about this. you'll have heard about this. you'll have heard about people getting unprecedented tax getting these unprecedented tax bills. people . have bills. and some people. have actually been driven to taking their own lives because of this scandal. could it be the next post office scandal that's going to what i'm going to be asking blanche just moment. but blanche in just a moment. but first, get a very quick first, let's get a very quick weather bulletin. >> brighter outlook with >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb

news. >> good morning. i'm greg dewhurst and welcome to your latest gb news weather. we've got some heavy rain across southern parts of england and wales today. turning windy wales today. turning quite windy as brighter for many as well, but brighter for many of this morning. mixed of us this morning. a mixed picture. the heavy picture. we've got the heavy rain parts of devon, rain across parts of devon, cornwall, wales cornwall, south—west wales slowly its way eastwards slowly pushing its way eastwards through . the day. elsewhere, through. the day. elsewhere, some mist and fog to start with, but this should lift and break and then there'll be plenty of sunny spells, particularly across parts of scotland. northern showers northern ireland a few showers possible perhaps possible here and perhaps northern later, but the northern england later, but the winds will increase across southern coastal counties of england, two england, perhaps wales. two gales some outbreaks of gales for some outbreaks of heavy could to some heavy rain could lead to some localised flooding. temperatures near for the of near average for the time of yeah near average for the time of year. so in any sunshine, not feeling further as feeling too bad further north as we into the evening we go through into the evening time, heavy rain time, we'll see the heavy rain continue. perhaps transferring more southeastern areas, more into southeastern areas, with the rain becoming lighter across the south—west. elsewhere, clear spells , elsewhere, clear spells, temperatures below

temperatures dropping below freezing under the clear skies in scotland , holding up under in scotland, holding up under the cloud strengthening wind the cloud and strengthening wind further and east. so a further south and east. so a grey start to monday here. outbreaks of rain generally holding on across the far southeast but eventually clearing later on in the day. elsewhere a bright day mixture of sunny spells, scattered showers, the best of the sunshine across the north and the west of the uk. quite a keen north easterly breeze for parts of england, particularly near the coast, which will make it feel quite chilly for the time of year. temperatures on face value, average value, generally near average for year . for the time of year. >> looks things are heating >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> blanch zeff joins me now from the loan charge action group. you'll no doubt be familiar with the loan charge , but not quite the loan charge, but not quite understand gone on. understand what has gone on. blanche, explain it to us because as we know that this is a sort of david goliath a sort of david versus goliath battle against hmrc on behalf of

your members, what actually happened ? happened? >> it only affect this, um, contractors . so pay people will, contractors. so pay people will, um, go to work. it's their national insurance and tax is deducted at source . and then deducted at source. and then there are contractors whose are not pay because they don't work for one employer. and if they only work for a few months, the employer doesn't want the obugafion employer doesn't want the obligation of all the employee benefits of pension holiday sickness. so about 25 years ago, hmrc wanted to draw a red line and they brought out something called er ir35, which is incredibly complicated . ed and incredibly complicated. ed and konto factors have gone to a reputable account . it's umbrella reputable account. it's umbrella companies to make sure they're on the correct side of that and compliant , on the correct side of that and compliant, and on the correct side of that and compliant , and they've done that compliant, and they've done that . but um, without , without a . but um, without, without a

problem. and then in a couple of years ago, hmrc brought in a retrospective tax called the loan charge . and that originally loan charge. and that originally went back to 30 years at the loan charge action group. were very upset. we we campaigned for um , uh, for it to be looked into um, uh, for it to be looked into and hmrc investigated themselves and hmrc investigated themselves and said no, it's okay. >> hmrc investigated themselves , >> hmrc investigated themselves, which is ringing alarm bells with me. blanche, but we are talking about some huge sums. so before i came on air, my producer gave me an email that you had sent on in advance of this one retired couple who have been told that hmrc is demanding . £91,000. yes yes. >> um, they're members of ours and they hadn't heard anything for several years. they'd emailed into the loan charge action group . the guy said he action group. the guy said he felt suicidal , so we acted

felt suicidal, so we acted immediately . we i called him, immediately. we i called him, i spoke to him. um, hadn't heard from hmrc for ages and they want 90,000 £91,000. >> sorry . how does the tax man >> sorry. how does the tax man stroke woman expect? people particularly poorly in retirement to come up with this money? i mean presumably they're saying , right, well sell your saying, right, well sell your home, take it out of your pension. i mean, this is not tax that people were expecting to pay- that people were expecting to pay. they thought they had done the right thing by getting the umbrella companies and getting accountants handle all this. correct? >> correct . and essentially, >> correct. and essentially, when contractors are on the correct side of ir35 , it's the correct side of ir35, it's the umbrella companies or the end client who should be responsible for tax and ni, which all of these contractors have paid . and these contractors have paid. and every single year the accountants and also the umbrella companies have sub submitted their annual returns, which have been accepted by hmrc. >> so, so hmrc digging its heels

in over this, i would assume you have been heavily lobbying government ministers and mps. what's the kind of reaction from that side of the political fence? >> well , fence? >> well, originally it was very difficult to explain to mps what this was , that this was this was, that this was retrospective of, and it is because you have to be ir35 compliant . hmrc were accepting compliant. hmrc were accepting them and we had to lobby mps and educate them on something that we didn't quite understand . and we didn't quite understand. and these days mps have become smart. they're listening to their constituents , they're their constituents, they're reading all the documents from hmrc, which are very lengthy and complicated and in fact there's something called an appg , which something called an appg, which basically means all parties . basically means all parties. >> parliamentary group. yes, on the loan charge, i presume, which is putting pressure on. i mean, where does the pressure have to go? is this something that jeremy hunt could solve? >> know, mps are >> i don't know, mps are standing up. there's almost 260

on this group. cross members. right? every single party. there are just under 100 conservatives and just under and just over 70 laboun and just under and just over 70 labour. the parliamentary . labour. the parliamentary. aliens. there are debates . there aliens. there are debates. there are treasury questions that treasury, hmrc is not listening . treasury, hmrc is not listening. but i will say one thing, because this, um , uh, jesse because this, um, uh, jesse norman, who was one of the previous secretaries to hmrc, to the treasury , actually stood up the treasury, actually stood up and said in parliament he can't go after the umbrellas because they have done nothing wrong right now. >> so go on, go after ordinary people instead. yes >> so what i've done is i've copied one of the brochures cause i probably can't read it. it's a terrible photocopy, but they all said the same thing. they're um, in a nutshell, they're saying we'll take our. >> we'll take care of this tax for you. you don't have anything

to worry about. everything will be fine. >> yes. now is aml. doug >> yes. now this is aml. doug barrowman is related to this and many other companies. he's the husband of michelle mone. ppe scandal. >> be careful here blanche, because obviously barrowman and others aml aren't here to defend themselves. absolutely. but you're saying this idea of putting the onus on the actual tax payer as opposed to trying to take to task people who might have given this accountant advice, is wrong. tell me about the human cost of this, because i did read this morning that ten people who have had these loan charges applied have taken their own lives. >> yes , hmrc should have carried >> yes, hmrc should have carried out proper impact assessment . out a proper impact assessment. they haven't . ten people have they haven't. ten people have lost their lives. many people have become insolvent. many people have sold their homes or raided their pensions simply to come up with the money. the worst thing is that when you sign a document with hmrc, they want you to admit that the guilt is yours and also, if any law

changes you cannot go back to them for any refund. now now there was a review that reduced going the retrospective part from 20 years to ten years, and just recently hmrc brought out a section s6 84, which which they have transferred the liability from the employer for the client to the employee. oh, so the us right? >> got it. >> got it. >> and that means as far as i understand it, they can go backwards or forwards as they wish . so there's no tax wish. so there's no tax certainty . there's no tax certainty. there's no tax fairness. there's no rule of law. every body can submit their tax returns . but there's nothing tax returns. but there's nothing to stop hmrc . to stop hmrc. >> and when you've said to hmrc look this is driving some people to consider taking their own lives, we've got retired couples facing 92 grand bills. what's the reaction? >> the reaction is whoever is the secretary to the treasury at the secretary to the treasury at the time stands at the despatch

box and reads out . the um, the box and reads out. the um, the response from hmrc response from stock response. yes >> so they're not really reacting to the human cost of all this. >> if they were, they wouldn't have brought out six, eight, four if they were trying to make it easier for the taxpayer , they it easier for the taxpayer, they wouldn't look up a clause and that that clause wasn't even brought out. for this reason, they've adapted it. >> i mean, is this the next post office scandal? because it sounds me as so—called sounds to me as if the so—called little men and women are suffering hands suffering here at the hands of, you accountancy advice you know, bad accountancy advice and hmrc using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. >> it wasn't bad advice. it was legal at the time . it's because legal at the time. it's because the law is retrospective . i've changed. >> they've changed the goalposts have shifted and people have been caught in the middle. >> and the little people include teachers. pilots , teachers. yes, airline pilots, hospital staff. every walk of life. >> blanche, thank you very much indeed for that. and i know that people can reach out to your group, can't they? they can email contact at hmrc loan

charge.info. we'll put that on the website gb to get the website on gb news to get more information if they've been affected by this. well, thank you all my guests today. you to all my guests today. i'm going at next sunday. going to be back at next sunday. of , at 930. don't forget of course, at 930. don't forget michael up .

next well. >> good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo as february wanes and the verges bloom with crocuses and daffodils, let us bring a dash of colour to your sunday morning with arts, culture, political debate and world affairs. liz truss has told americans that her premiership was thwarted by the bank england and the the bank of england and the office for budget responsibility . kemi badenoch has traded accusations staunton, accusations with henry staunton,

whom sacked as chairman of whom she sacked as chairman of the post office. david neal, the independent chief inspector of borders immigration, was borders and immigration, was told he lost the told that he had lost the confidence of home confidence of the home secretary, james cleverly. the reverse more reverse might have been more true the minister failed true after the minister failed to publish 15 the inspectors to publish 15 of the inspectors reports . when the speaker of the reports. when the speaker of the house commons broke all house of commons broke all parliamentary precedent on wednesday gaza row, the wednesday in the gaza row, the clerk publicly clerk of the house publicly disagreed him . has the disagreed with him. has the relationship between elected politics and officials irretrievably broken down? that's my question for today's political panel. in a few days, voters in rochdale will pick a new representative in parliament. what was seen as a foregone conclusion as a victory foregone conclusion as a victory for the labour party has been cast in doubt as our domestic politics are now dominated by the terrorist attack on israel and the war in gaza, at least in areas with jewish or muslim populations . is there populations. is there a possibility that george galloway, who appeals strongly to muslim electors, could become the city's member of parliament? i'll look that with the i'll look at that with the pollster matt goodwin. more concerning news from the royal