gb news. >> good evening. i'm ray addison in the gb newsroom. our top stories tonight. two people have been arrested on suspicion of preventing a lawful and decent burial in yorkshire. branches of legacy independent funeral directors in hull and east riding remain cordoned off after concern for care of the deceased was reported on wednesday. humberside police says 34 bodies have now been respectfully transported to a mortuary for formal identification. the 46 year old man and a 23 year old woman are being questioned. they are also suspected of fraud by false representation and fraud

by abuse of position . police say by abuse of position. police say an incident at buckingham palace is not being treated as terror related. armed officers detained a man in the early hours of yesterday morning after a car crashed into the gates. he was arrested on suspicion of criminal damage , then released criminal damage, then released on bail and has been sectioned under the mental health act . under the mental health act. pro—palestinian protesters are being warned they could be lending credence to extremists . lending credence to extremists. the communities secretary is urging people to question which groups are organising the marches. michael gove , who is marches. michael gove, who is due to publish a new official definition of extremism , told definition of extremism, told the sunday telegraph there's no excuse for ignorance and good hearted demonstrators need to be aware that they risk fuelling hate and intimidation . london's hate and intimidation. london's jewish community has braved rainy weather today to demand the release of hostages being held in gaza . they joined jews

held in gaza. they joined jews around the world blowing shofars traditional ram's horns, which are normally used at the holiest moments of the jewish calendar. the last pause in fighting between israel and hamas was back in november, when the terrorist organisation released more than 100 hostages. is believed that hamas still holds around 134 people kidnapped dunng around 134 people kidnapped during the october 7th attack. a group of mothers are staging a hunger strike outside of parliament. the five day protest aims to draw attention to parents who can't afford to eat and are therefore skipping meals, so they can feed their kids. their list of demands includes enforcing free school meals and universal credit to guarantee life's essentials. mps are due to address this issue on tuesday . the princess of wales tuesday. the princess of wales has thanked the public for their

support as the first photo of the royal was published after her abdominal surgery. the image, posted on social media to mark mother's day, was taken by the prince of wales in windsor earlier on this week. sitting down, princess catherine is surrounded by her children prince george, princess charlotte and prince louis. she was admitted to hospital on january 16th and left two weeks later following a planned operation . she's now expected to operation. she's now expected to return to her royal duties after easter . well, for the latest easter. well, for the latest stories, why not sign up to gb news alerts? you can do that by scanning the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. com slash alerts. now back to free speech nation. >> it's one of the biggest medical scandals of the century. and yet for many media outlets, it may as well not have happened. tonight i'll be taking you through the w path files. this is free speech nation .

this is free speech nation. welcome to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. the ideological march through the medical institute has been rapid and unexpected. in recent years. we have seen leading paediatric specialists asserting that children who say they are in the wrong body must have their feelings immediately affirmed. we've been told that if a boy claims to be a girl or vice versa, they must be believed and fast tracked onto a pathway to medical medicalisation first fast tracked onto a pathway to medical blockers, alisation first fast tracked onto a pathway to medicalblockers, then:ion first fast tracked onto a pathway to medicalblockers, then cross—sex puberty blockers, then cross—sex hormones. in some cases, hormones. and in some cases, irreversible surgery. is irreversible surgery. this is known as the gender affirmative model. and while advocates model. and while its advocates claim that it is evidence based, its critics say it is pure pseudoscience and that we're permitting widespread medical experiments on this generation of children and now messages and recorded video conferences from an internal chat system at w path. the world professional association for transgender health, have been leaked. w path

is the leading authority on gender medicine in the world, with considerable influence throughout the anglosphere and here via the nhs gps. here in the uk via the nhs gps. these leaked materials have revealed something that many of us suspected all along that leading medical practitioners in the field of gender, paediatric healthcare, health care are all too aware that many of these procedures are experimental and most , that they most significantly, that they have been proceeding with irreversible surgery on patients who cannot possibly give informed , either because informed consent, either because they're too young or that they suffer from some other, some psychological disorder. the w path files were leaked to journalist michael shellenberger at the environmental progress think , and have been think tank, and have been presented and analysed in a comprehensive report by journalist mia hughes. it is called the w path files pseudoscientific surgical and hormonal experiments on children, adolescents and vulnerable adults . so are we vulnerable adults. so are we deaung vulnerable adults. so are we dealing with the medical scandal of the century ? tonight, i'm of the century? tonight, i'm going to be talking to a range of experts to take a deep dive

into the w path files and explore precisely what they reveal about ideological reveal about the ideological capture medical capture of the medical profession . now, i should say profession. now, i should say that some of the subjects discussed in tonight's show will be disturbing, and viewer be very disturbing, and viewer discretion advised . so let's discretion is advised. so let's begin. we're going to talk to the two journalists most responsible for bringing the leaks attention. michael leaks to our attention. michael shellenberger and mia hughes. and michael, want to start and michael, i want to start with how did these leaks with you. how did these leaks come about ? come about? >> sure. well, first, thanks for having us, andrew. really appreciate your coverage of this. so a source or sources provided me with these internal files. as you mentioned, there's a video . and then there's also a video. and then there's also a number of written messages from m a internal messaging board. and what they show is quite shocking. it's discussions of doing potential surgeries and drugs for children, including ages 1013, developmental delayed people with diagnosed as schizophrenic developmental disorders , identity disorders.

disorders, identity disorders. we also see the people within w path, meaning the people inside. what's called gender affirming medicine. explicitly recognising that neither the children nor the parents understand the consequences of these procedures, which include lifelong sterilisation and loss of sexual function. so this is extremely serious. this is up there with past medical scandals and without question , in my and without question, in my view, i think the response to this that we've seen across the board has been real shock and horror and that it is going to result in some kind of a reaction from governments. >> now, mia, i want to bring you in here. it's an extremely long report that you've written, but perhaps you might want tell perhaps you might want to tell us about some of the key findings, i would say i'll give you individual cases, but you some individual cases, but some of the key findings, the main finding for me was that you can see from these conversations that this is not a medical group

, this is not a scientific group. this is a group that is engagedin group. this is a group that is engaged in political activism. so somebody will show up in the forum and they will they'll have a really difficult case. and they're really concerned, let's say it's the 13 year old developmental delayed child who is on puberty blockers. and they don't know whether this child will ever reach the stage that they can consent to cross—sex hormones . and then along comes hormones. and then along comes a cohort of people encouraging medicalisation, encouraging the hormones , dismissing the hormones, dismissing the caution, dismissing the doubts . caution, dismissing the doubts. we've got cases of teenagers with liver tumours as, vaginal atrophy, uterine atrophy from the testosterone. we've got males experiencing erections that feel like broken glass. we've got very seriously mentally unwell people being discussed and again, there's no

caution. they always encourage the hormones and the surgeries. okay. >> well let's have a quick look at some of the leaked video recordings. so this one is about whether children can consent to treatment , i whether children can consent to treatment, i think i think you have to remember about kids is that we're often explaining these of things to people these sorts of things to people who had biology in who haven't even had biology in high yet, and, and, and high school yet, and, and, and i know i've heard others in this kind of a, in this kind of a setting say, well, we think adults are like, really slick biologically . they think adults are like, really slick biologically. they think a adults are like, really slick biologically . they think a lot biologically. they think a lot of people have very little medical understanding of stuff like we medical like that. we just medical professionals and mental health professionals and mental health professionals take for granted. but i don't still what to but i don't know still what to do for the 14 year olds. the parents have it on their minds, but old, you just but the 14 year old, you just it's like talking with diabetic complications. with a 14 year old. they don't care. they're not going to die. they're they're to live forever. they're going to live forever. right. think when right. so i think i think when we're informed consent, i we're doing informed consent, i know that's still big know that that's still a big lacuna . lacuna. >> okay. he mentioned informed consent there. so let's let's

consider what the parents might have to say. let's have a look at this clip. >> i try to kind of do whatever i can to help them understand best the best i can. but what really disturbs me is when the parents can't tell me what they need to know about a medical intervention that apparently they signed for. intervention that apparently they signed for . off they signed for. off >> so, michael, i want to ask you about that one clinician. they're saying that, you know, a lot of these kids, they haven't even got biology at high school level. so so? so the level. so how so? so the clinicians are aware , as you clinicians are aware, as you say, that they can't get say, that, that they can't get informed consent in this situation. am i right about that? yeah >> that's very clear from those clips that you showed and also from the larger video, it's i believe it said almost an hour and half long zoom video, and and a half long zoom video, and we released it in its entirety. they know that not they know that they're not getting consent. so getting informed consent. so they acknowledging that they they are acknowledging that they themselves their colleagues they are acknowledging that they theiin elves their colleagues they are acknowledging that they theiin direct their colleagues they are acknowledging that they theiin direct violation colleagues they are acknowledging that they theiin direct violation of.leagues are in direct violation of standard medical ethics, ethic of informed consent is right up

there with do no harm. and i would just point out it's also just such an interesting look into power ideology that into the power of ideology that at no point in that conversation did they say, yeah , there's this did they say, yeah, there's this lacuna. we can't figure out how to solve solve this problem. the fact that 14 year olds don't understand and what they're getting into with lifelong sterility and potential loss of sexual function. at no point do they then say, you know , we they then say, you know, we probably shouldn't be probably really shouldn't be doing procedures doing these procedures on anybody under the age of 18 or maybe 21, because the brain, as we know, still growing. after we know, is still growing. after you're you're still you're 18, you're still developing forebrain. i developing your forebrain. i think i when i was 19 think of how i was when i was 19 and 20. so, i mean, ijust think of how i was when i was 19 and 20. so, i mean, i just think and 20. so, i mean, ijust think it's such a shocking case. i think there's been a rush by some people online to sort of call these people evil and use all sorts of names. i mean, what you're struck by is that they're so obsessed with idea that so obsessed with this idea that gender sort of, you gender is this sort of, you know, real thing and that it really has to be affirmed and that there's no other way to do

it. i mean, it's as simple as basically saying that gender medicine is their only hammer, and that makes them see everything that comes to them as a nail to be hammered. and that includes things like, you know, various, you know, eating disorders , anxiety disorders, disorders, anxiety disorders, things that are clearly there's other things going on that's quite obvious. and they're just mistreating them. >> so mia, just finally, i want to ask you about a recent piece of investigative journalism in quebec that showed just how dangerous paths affirmative approach medicine can approach to gender medicine can be. could you tell us you know, about this? you've written about this, the 14 year old girl who was given hormones after a 17 minute appointment. >> that's right. i, i got that wrong. actually. it turns out that she was given , hormones that she was given, hormones after just nine minutes. so this afterjust nine minutes. so this is it was a cbc, the french version of the cbc. they sent an actress in posing as a 14 year old girl. she said that she had come across the idea of trans onune

come across the idea of trans online and that she had an eating disorder, and within nine minutes, this this clinician had approved her for testosterone. her parents weren't there, she didn't have parental consent. and when the journalist asked them about why they had done that , they said i was just that, they said i was just following w path. and in the w path standards of care. they pointed out you need to do a comprehensive psychosocial assessment and the clinician said, well, i did. it's not duration. it's the quality of the assessment. so in the wrong hands such as this clinician w path standards of care . and this path standards of care. and this affirmative model can mean that you end up with a 14 year old girl getting testosterone after nine minutes. >> well, there's a lot to think about there. michael shellenberger and mia hughes, thanks much joining thanks so much forjoining me tonight. you. i'd like to tonight. thank you. i'd like to emphasise that the leaked recordings and messages represent the views and remarks of certain members of w path,

but they are not speaking in the capacity as spokespeople for the organisation as a whole. and in addition , it is likely that addition, it is likely that w path itself would dispute the interpretation of these leaked conversations that have been made by the author of the w path files and the associates . now we files and the associates. now we have, of course, reached out to w path and invited them to appear on this show, but they have declined. so now we'll move on next on free speech nation. i'm going to be talking to helen joyce, director of advocacy at sex matters, about the influence of w path both across the globe and in the uk. don't go and here in the uk. don't go anywhere.

welcome back to this special edition of free speech nation with me . andrew doyle. today with me. andrew doyle. today we're talking about w path, the world professional association for transgender health, and the leaked that raised

leaked files that raised concerns about their procedures. now, some of the w path files pertain to very young people. so here's an example of leaked here's an example of a leaked message discussing discussing a 14 trans female who 14 year old trans female who started transition she was started transition when she was four. and this is a message in which the medical practitioner is saying it is very difficult to ask that they wait until age 16. let's have a look at that . 16. let's have a look at that. and we'll move on to another message now describing a 16 year old patient found to have two liver masses. the likely offending agents were the hormone . and this leaked hormone. and this leaked document, which admits that after 810 years of developed hep, i'm going to get this wrong hepatocarcinoma they died a couple of months after. now this is suggesting that medical staff are aware that these drugs are unked are aware that these drugs are linked to cancer , even in linked to cancer, even in children as young as 16 years old. and there's also a clear cases where patients with serious mental illnesses are allowed to. nonetheless consent to this life changing treatment. so doctor saying i was so here's a doctor saying i was surprised to find that several of clients met criteria for

of my clients met criteria for dissociative disorders, and this one makes the astonishing claim someone can have schizophrenia and be ready for surgery. so to explain more, i'm delighted to be joined by director of advocacy at sex matters, helen joyce. yes, thank you for. >> so, helen w path produced a document called the standards of care. >> what are these standards of care. >> so each area of medicine because medicine is so specialised now tends to have documents that are called standards of care that set out what the evidence base is, what best practices, what best practices, what the choices are. say you're doing hip replacements, way you do replacements, what way you do hip replacements, and there is no organisation from no organisation apart from w path that produces anything like this and gender medicine. but the trouble is, as we heard from mia and michael w path is not actually a medical association. i join today if i wanted i could join today if i wanted to just pay $200 and sign up and join. and fact, many of the join. and in fact, many of the people members not people who are members are not even clinicians. they're even gender clinicians. they're activists. have gender

activists. so we have gender clinicians, going along clinicians, doctors going along asking say, i'm asking her advice, say, i'm worried patient may worried my patient may have schizophrenia, mental schizophrenia, may have a mental illness, may not be ready to illness, and may not be ready to give they're getting advice >> and they're getting advice from without qualifications. >> right . absolutely. i >> that's right. absolutely. i looked entire leaked looked through the entire leaked files. shared files. michael and mia shared them with me before the release, and looked what every and i looked up what every person , who every person was. person, who every person was. and those people were and some of those people were trans themselves. and trans people themselves. and imagine asking imagine that you're asking a question young person question about a young person who has deeply unpleasant, symptoms. you know, we heard from mia, you know, gross pain in the genitals. and then a trans person comes in and says, this is how i dealt with it. you can't say, well, that doesn't sound like a good way to deal with does it? of course, with it. does it? of course, it's all mixed up. but they it's all just mixed up. but they produce this thing called standards which sounds standards of care, which sounds like it's got all the authority behind in other behind it, that in every other area have. but area of medicine you have. but it's not. >> now some of the new chapters in the latest version of the standards of care, which is version eight, they're quite surprising , aren't they. yes. surprising, aren't they. yes. >> so standards of care eight

came out last year in draft form. it's almost a decade or roughly decade since the roughly a decade since the previous standards of care, and the previous were already the previous ones were already disturbing from an attempt to shift away from an attempt to provide an evidence based clinical approach to being much more consumer driven, what the patient wanted. but standards of care eight was extraordinary. it has an entire chapter on eunuch gender identity that claims that little boys baby boys can be born with the gender identity of a eunuch, a castrated person. and it says that there have been eunuch identified people for 4000 but actually there 4000 years, but actually there have is people like chinese have been is people like chinese emperors opera emperors and italian opera managers who have, you know, perpetrated a grotesque human rights abuse and little boys. so that's a ridiculous claim . that's a ridiculous claim. there's a chapter on non—binary people which describes operations where you keep your own genitals and add fake genitals of the other sex, or remove all your genitals entirely and call yourself null . entirely and call yourself null. and there's there was a chapter in draft about ethics , but in the draft about ethics, but that was removed entirely. >> so they've removed the element about ethics. they also

removed a chapter about age limits. >> so it wasn't a chapter, >> so it wasn't a full chapter, but they some age limits but they listed some age limits that just recommendations . that were just recommendations. evans w path doesn't have formal authority anywhere, it just has moral authority. it borrowed moral authority. it borrowed moral were moral authority. and they were very low and just suggested anyway. it things like 14 anyway. so it was things like 14 years for cross sex hormones, 15 years for cross sex hormones, 15 years for cross sex hormones, 15 years for mastectomy and they took them out because american doctors said that they wouldn't be reimbursed by be able to get reimbursed by insurance companies there insurance companies if there were went were age limits, and they went below they were saying below them. so they were saying they were already being too cautious ridiculous cautious with these ridiculous low limits. low age limits. >> should say that the >> now, i should say that the standards care are freely standards of care are freely available anyone. can available to anyone. they can download online, but people download them online, but people listening will say, listening to this will say, okay, some of the that okay, some of the stuff that you're describing, helen, too you're describing, helen, is too far there, it can't far out there, right? it can't be certainly be real. and it certainly couldn't in the couldn't affect anyone in the uk. the nhs wouldn't be listening this kind of thing, listening to this kind of thing, would they? >> like to think that, >> you'd like to think that, wouldn't i have to say, wouldn't you? i have to say, i think that the name world professional association has perpetrated professional association has perp of �*ated professional association has perpof'ated on everybody . i sort of hoax on everybody. i mean, this is an activist led document. each chapter of the

standards of care was developed by a committee. and on those committee are people who have no medical whatsoever. committee are people who have no medicaljust whatsoever. committee are people who have no medicaljust activists whatsoever. committee are people who have no medicaljust activists .'hatsoever. committee are people who have no medicaljust activists .'hats1so,ar. they're just activists. and so, yes, nhs, sorry to say, yes, the nhs, i'm sorry to say, has incorporated and up to standards of care. seven in all, the most important documents to do with gender care within the nhs even standards of care. nhs and even standards of care. eight this absolutely bizarre barking mad, i would say document which says things about eunuchs that is referred to by some nhs trusts as international best practice. that's the expression that's always used . expression that's always used. so whenever you hear international best practice cited by people within the nhs and in private gender clinics, what they mean is w path and that's what they use as their authority for this non—evidence based approach to gender medicine. >> now, your group sex matters have published a document called w path in the nhs, which has all these links and various things, but there are other websites like the general medical council. right, royal council. that's right, the royal college of psychiatrists, who are linking directly are even today linking directly to w path. >> yes, and british medical association well. all three

association as well. all three of do. and think it is of those do. and i think it is the general medical council that links directly to links directly through to standards eight standards of care. eight so not even the cautious one, the even the more cautious one, the scottish government intended to adopt of care. eight adopt standards of care. eight and the sandyford clinic. and when activists went to it like sex based rights activists went to and said, look, they're to it and said, look, they're talking about eunuchs, they're talking about non—binary surgeries. ignored that surgeries. they ignored that until the press picked it up. and then they reluctantly rowed back and just settled on standards care. standards of care. >> but finally, helen, >> seven but finally, helen, i mean, the are saying they're mean, the nhs are saying they're trying distance themselves trying to distance themselves now, with all now, aren't they? with all of these revelations? mean, how these revelations? i mean, how could otherwise? could they do otherwise? >> think that, >> you'd like to think that, wouldn't and do think wouldn't you? and i do think we're starting to see them pull back. the trouble is, these things their things are written into their standards and into their standards of care and into their contracts, contracts contracts, their own contracts for so they need to for services. so they need to kind of de—radicalize go through and it out. and specifically take it out. and they need to listen to doctor and what she says. >> well, let me ask you about this, helen. following this, helen. the following clip is training session from is from a training session from dorset university nhs dorset healthcare university nhs foundation trust, featuring doctor minnaar, an nhs

doctor christine minnaar, an nhs general practitioner. now in this clip, a doctor minnaar is discussing a hypothetical example of a young girl who wants to transition and answering the question how many menopause might this individual have ? have? >> the timeline for them would be they start periods aged 9 to 11, it's variable , obviously 11, it's variable, obviously the, age of mannakee, the onset of menstruation has dropped over the years , and the average now the years, and the average now is around nine years old. at some point, if you identify as trans and you're able to access , trans and you're able to access, you may, you may, you know , if you may, you may, you know, if we ever have, child and adolescent services that actually worked , you may actually worked, you may actually worked, you may actually have, a effectively a menopause to stop the periods when you start on g and rh analogues as part of the, evidence based way of managing,

younger trans people. >> helen. that's an official nhs video. what do you think of that about that? >> i think the same as when i looked at the w path files and the video that michael and mia released, which is it's the phrase of evil. i mean, phrase banality of evil. i mean, this is a man who's talking, a man his 50s talking about man in his 50s talking about what i'm going through as a woman my 50s now, which is woman in my 50s now, which is menopause. and talking about about appropriate, the about it being appropriate, the right to do, something right thing to do, something that the is working that the nhs is working properly, bring properly, it would do to bring that being in a nine year that into being in a nine year old girl, child, little old girl, a child, a little primary before primary aged child before that child the chance to child even has the chance to experience puberty, let alone to know it might be to fall in know what it might be to fall in love, to want a child to experience sexual pleasure and this is being talked about in this, in this bureaucratic language of monarchy. you know, i don't know how these people have so lost sight of what morals and ethics in health care are and what an evidence base might be, but it really needs to stop. >> absolutely . okay. helen >> absolutely. okay. helen joyce, thank you so much for

joining me. we're going to see you a bit later on as well. >> thank you. now >> thank you. now >> now i should say that i did contact dorset healthcare university nhs foundation trust to verify the authenticity of the clip. they replied, explaining it was authentic but they could not grant permission for us to show it. i explained that we felt it was important to show anyway because it is in the pubuc show anyway because it is in the public interest. it had already been leaked and therefore it's in the public domain and we are using the fair dealing using it within the fair dealing exception copyright using it within the fair dealing excewhile copyright using it within the fair dealing excewhile we copyright using it within the fair dealing excewhile we don't 3yright using it within the fair dealing excewhile we don't knowt using it within the fair dealing excewhile we don't know why they and while we don't know why they didn't us to show this didn't want us to show this clip, illustrate some of clip, it does illustrate some of the that we face in the difficulties that we face in shining on these shining a light on these problems. i'd like to emphasise we've been touch with we've also been in touch with doctor minnaar, who doctor christine minnaar, who wasn't interview wasn't available for interview today, for today, and i'm grateful for doctor minerva getting back doctor minerva for getting back to i hope we can have a to us, and i hope we can have a discussion the show in discussion on the on the show in the future. but next on free the future. but next up on free speech nation, i'm going to be heanng speech nation, i'm going to be hearing the other of this hearing the other side of this argument robin. moira argument from robin. moira white, a barrister who supports gender white, a barrister who supports ge|not go anywhere.

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me. andrew doyle. this is our special on the warpath files. now, in preparation for this show, we have been attempting to secure interviews with medical professionals who support gender affirming care. we approached 33 different members of w path and ianed different members of w path and invited them all to appear . all invited them all to appear. all 33 either declined or did not get back to us at all. however, i am delighted to say that barrister robin moira white, who does support gender affirmative care, has agreed to talk to me and robin joins me now. robin, i do really appreciate you being here because it has been very difficult to get people to support gender affirming care. i think it's very important that all sides of this debate are heard. and i know you can't heard. and, and i know you can't speculate about what's going on in people's minds, in other people's minds, but why do think might be that so do you think it might be that so many medical professionals won't

talk many medical professionals won't taliwell, your previous guest, >> well, your previous guest, helen joyce, described trans people problem helen joyce, described trans prsane problem helen joyce, described trans prsane world. problem helen joyce, described trans prsane world. i problem helen joyce, described trans p> that's right, that's right. and of the and robin, but in terms of the invitations, were more invitations, there were more people your side people invited from your side of the debate the other. the debate than from the other. it's just so happens that you have it. will, by the have accepted it. i will, by the way, put that to helen when i see again later on. see her again later on. >> and to be fair, i wavered in coming on because i'd seen the way this evening was advertised. and, i am concerned and that the debate about trans people is toxic and difficult for trans people to engage in. >> well , let's talk about it >> well, let's talk about it then. from your perspective, let's hear your view, you yourself have experienced gender affirmative and so you and affirmative care and so you and you've had a very good experience. could you tell us about that? yeah i, i struggled with my gender since i, i was very young. >> i perhaps would have transitioned in my 20s, but i suffered horrible workplace

discrimination that ended a career that i loved. and i had to go and find another one, which was law and got to my early 40s and decided that to i had transition or frankly, jump off a cliff and went through w path, model rated treatment. so with appropriate , psychological with appropriate, psychological investigations, appropriate counselling , long before there counselling, long before there was any hint of prescription or any hint of surgery later. and i've been right through everything i've had done, i've been properly informed about, i've consented to properly. and there's an example in the other direction. i'm an oral advocate . direction. i'm an oral advocate. one of the types of surgery that's possible is surgery to vocal cords. and i went through , vocal cords. and i went through, i thought seriously about that, but because i'm an oral advocate , it it risks me. ended up sounding like minnie mouse and a bit ridiculous. and obviously if i was like that in court for a

day, you wouldn't be listening to what i was saying. you'd be listening to that and i took an informed choice not to have that surgery. >> and you have some reservations, don't you, about the content of the w path files? >> well, firstly are >> well, firstly the video are people having discussion . people having a discussion. they're not as i understand it, it's in no sense an official position from w power. >> yes, that's the point i made earlier. yes yes yes. >> and i have some significant problems with the report that's been written. there's an american trans journalist called erin reed who's looked at the report and has hundreds of criticisms of the report. and i suspect you ought to make some, some attempt to have her, here to discuss that. >> erin was invited to appear today. well, indeed. >> so let's take and i gave you one example in a in advance in advance of speaking. so the report talks about the level of detransitioners. and i know you're going to be talking to a detransitioners later. the

studies show that detransitioning is down at single percents . that's what the single percents. that's what the study is of the transitioners show. that's very low in terms of regret rates for surgery . a of regret rates for surgery. a comparison would be hip or knee surgery often has regret rates of between 20 and 30% because people end up with and what the report says. the report looks at a study . and the study. the a study. and the study. the people who wrote the study themselves question and they go, oh, this low single percent looks very low. the report quotes that , but what it doesn't quotes that, but what it doesn't do is quote four lines later when the investigators have looked at the reasons why that is low and say there's no reason to doubt the figures. >> but isn't it the case that we don't really have the data on detransitioners, insofar as that a lot of them are those who are no on the doctor's books, no longer on the doctor's books, and a this data is drawn and a lot of this data is drawn from the people who are still patients. of those doctors, no, there are some very very there are some very recent, very well worked studies, and there are some very recent, very well vstudy studies, and there are some very recent, very well vstudy comes studies, and there are some very recent, very well vstudy comes studiesveryi every study comes out with very low numbers . can i ask you, with

low numbers. can i ask you, with your support of gender affirming care , i've looked through the care, i've looked through the path, standards of care, and it's very clear that a lot of it is driven by a, a notion of gender identity, can you explain to me what what is gender identity? >> well, i guess i'm old in that sense. and we've moved to, gender incongruence is the phrase that people prefer these days. phrase that people prefer these days . yes, in a sense, in my days. yes, in a sense, in my view, when i was being treated, the standard was gender dysphoria. and dysphoria is a word that basically means, discomfort . yes. and from the discomfort. yes. and from the age of 7 or 8, i was immensely uncomfortable with having to present to the world as male. >> so it's a it's a feeling, though, based on, you say, presenting to the world as male. is it based on stereotypes of genden is it based on stereotypes of gender, dressing a certain way, acting a certain way, being tough or rough and tumble or being what is no being feminine? what is it? no not at all. there's an essence

of male or female. and if, if, if you meet me in the west country, you'll most likely find me in jeans gardening. and it's not about the way you look. no, it's not about a particular thing . but there are. there is thing. but there are. there is maleness and femaleness. >> i mean, i'm serious about this because it's something i really want to understand. i looked at the definition of gender identity in the glossary. it says it refers to a person's deeply felt internal intrinsic sense of their own gender. that sounds much like a circular sounds very much like a circular definition can't sounds very much like a circular defin out| can't sounds very much like a circular defin out what can't sounds very much like a circular defin out what they can't sounds very much like a circular defin out what they mean. ill work out what they mean. >> it's a like colour to >> it's a bit like colour to a blind man, because if you fortunately , are one of those fortunately, are one of those people whose sense of yourself matches the gender or the sex in which you were born, and i don't have a gender identity. >> i am just model for you. >> i am just model for you. >> those things match for me. they didn't match. and for trans people they don't match. >> so. but are you not concerned, robin, about, i mean, you had a very good experience

and completely that you had a very good experience and accept letely that you had a very good experience and accept that.’ that you had a very good experience and accept that. but that you had a very good experience and accept that. but there 1at you had a very good experience and accept that. but there are and accept that. but there are an awful lot of people who haven't had a very good experience, and a lot of experience, and there's a lot of whistleblowers out whistleblowers coming out saying, from the saying, you know, from the tavistock places that, tavistock and places like that, people who are within people who are working within the saying it has to the system saying it has to change. least change. so shouldn't we at least be conversation about be having a conversation about whether gender affirming care is the to go? the right way to go? >> absolutely. a conversation is fine, we have to. i'm fine, but we have to. i'm a scientist who became a lawyer, so i love evidence. right? evidence is the right way forward and back to the studies we were talking about. and they consistently come out with very , consistently come out with very, very low levels of regret. and you're absolutely right. we should continue to follow people through the process. we should see how that works. and for those people who end up in a position of regret, that's awful for them. but what you don't do in the hip replacement example is because 20% of people come out of a hip replacement with a bad experience. you don't say the other 80% shouldn't have the hip replacement. >> okay, well, robin, i would to love be able to talk to you

about this much more. we are running out of time, just very finely, this idea of evidence based. i think we all agree that scientific procedures should be evidence that is evidence based, but if that is based on what you describe as an essence maleness or an essence of maleness or an essence of maleness or an essence feeling femaleness, essence of feeling femaleness, it like soul. sounds it sounds like a soul. it sounds something it sounds like a soul. it sounds someis ing compatible with a how is that compatible with a medical procedure? >> well, almost all psychological positions depend on interviewing somebody, finding out how they feel about themselves, how they interact with the world around them . we with the world around them. we don't yet have some form of laser that can look into your brain and say, you know, is this how it is? we have to listen to people and understand how they are and who they say they are. >> robin moira white, thank you so much forjoining me. really appreciate it. and next on free speech nation , i'm going to be speech nation, i'm going to be speaking to genevieve gluck from redux to discuss her research into warpath and even more revelations. please don't go

anywhere

welcome back to this special free speech nation when we're looking into the warpath. files leaked internal messages from the world professional association for transgender health. now, the current version of warpath standards of care is version eight, readily available online. there is a new chapter online. there is a new chapter on eunuchs in which eunuch is proffered as a legitimate gender identity that requires surgical realisation. this is how warpath defines eunuch. in the current guidelines, eunuch individuals are those assigned male at birth and wish to eliminate masculine physical features, masculine genitals or genital functioning, and this is what warpath concludes in its statements of recommendations. we recommend health care professionals and other users of the standards of care. eighth, guidelines should apply the recommendations in ways that meet the needs of

eunuch individuals. now, in 2022, the telegraph reported that nhs scotland had uploaded a draft version of warpath standards of care that contain this chapter on eunuchs to the official nhs website . but official nhs website. but there's a further sinister element to this story that was uncovered by genevieve gluck for the redux website, and i spoke to genevieve earlier today, and this that discussion went this is how that discussion went . genevieve gluck, thank you very much for joining . genevieve gluck, thank you very much forjoining me on free speech nation. >> thank you for having me . >> thank you for having me. >> thank you for having me. >> in the summer of 2022, nhs scotland uploaded added to their official website the warpath standards of care version eight, or at least a draft version of those standards of care, in which there was a new chapter about eunuch identities, and specifically there was a link to a fetish site relating to the nofion a fetish site relating to the notion of the castration of minors and which also featured graphic depictions, written depictions of the sexual abuse of minors. you were the first to

break this story at redux magazine. could you tell us a little bit more about that? >> sure. so the eunuch archive was the website that was named in the draft standards of care eight document under a chapter called eunuch gender identity . called eunuch gender identity. and that website has on its , on and that website has on its, on its main site, a link to a fiction archive where there are thousands of stories written about graphic castration, explicit sexual castration, even of children , a total of about of children, a total of about 10,000 stories altogether . and 10,000 stories altogether. and of that total, nearly 40% or nearly 4000 of those stories are tagged specifically with the terms minor , meaning that they terms minor, meaning that they deal with themes of children. some of these stories included themes of doctors halting the puberty of children to then sexually abuse them . some of the sexually abuse them. some of the stories involved forcible surgical castration of children, primarily boys , and in fact

primarily boys, and in fact these stories were some of the most popular on the website, and others include depictions of chemical castration, there being an overlap with the drugs that are given to children that are called puberty blockers. this website was started in 1998, but had previously been hosted on a body modification fetish website called bme, so it has been running for several decades now, and men who are anonymized are allowed to produce these stories that are shared on that website. >> so, genevieve, i'm sure that if we had a representative of warpath here and we've tried our best to get one, they would say, but we did not link to those kinds of stories that you are describing that that that's a separate website that, that you would have to go through the eunuch to get to what eunuch archive to get to what would would respond to would how would you respond to that within draft associate that within the draft associate document, names document, it specifically names the fiction archive and refers

to it so they are aware of its existence. >> but in addition, certain academics involved with warpath had been involved in this forum directly for decades as well . directly for decades as well. warpath has published a research that was gathered from the opinions of these anonymous participants within this forum. again writing stories that involve sexual abuse of children , getting their opinions through research as starting as early as 2009. one such paper was presented at a warpath conference in oslo, norway, and then in 2010, the following yean then in 2010, the following year, the international journal of transgenderism, which is published by warpath, then released that presentation in their publication. >> i suppose the defence might be that these are private fantasies engaged in by adults.

they're not actually breaking the law, they're just engaging in fantastic writing, what would you say to that ? you say to that? >> i would say that within the forum, i have seen claims that were made that the research that was being gathered from this community was influential in editing diagnostic literature, specifically the dsm five or the diagnostic and statistical manual for mental disorders. now, the claims within this forum are that these men, because they are primarily men, were outsourced for their opinions on medical terminology. so we initially in the dsm, for the previous edition, we had the terms gender identity disorder. this was changed in the dsm five to gender dysphoria. and then there is a section added about gender dysphoria in children. now, if these claims are true, i would think that would be quite damning. that anonymous participants of a fetish forum had a hand in changing medical

terminology, specifically in regards to the medical transitioning of children. >> so just to be absolutely clear, it is your contention that there are senior academics and clinicians who have a vested interest in the castration of children insofar as that they have a fetish relating to that subject and that they are directly involved with the modification of policy , at at w modification of policy, at at w path . path. >> yes, that appears to be the case. and i believe that i've seen substantial evidence that thatis seen substantial evidence that that is the case as well. within that is the case as well. within that forum, videos were being uploaded as pornographic content that involved castration and even what are euphemistically called mtf surgeries or the transsexual surgeries . transsexual surgeries. >> so this is very disturbing stuff, but i suppose w path might say, well, there might be some, members who have these, fetishes, but a lot of the people a lot of the practitioners who are engaged in the transitional procedures with minors are not motivated by

that. do you have any thoughts on that? >> sure, i do think there are a lot of different motivations going on behind the scenes for various individuals. however, it's been observation that it's been my observation that within the medical protocols and sort of the leading figures pushing the transitioning of children, there is a strong overlap between paraphilias and fetishism. from the research that i have done now, you've been at the forefront of exposing a lot of these stories over the past few years. >> at redux magazine . can i ask, >> at redux magazine. can i ask, when you expose this, this particular point that nhs scotland itself had uploaded this draft version of the standards of care which linked to this fetish site ? they did. i to this fetish site? they did. i must emphasise that nhs scotland did apologise for that and subsequently distanced themselves from warpath, although there was a leaked recording of a clinician at the sandyford sexual health clinic in glasgow, suggesting that in fact warpath did still influence nhs policy . so why is it that,

nhs policy. so why is it that, given the severity of these revelations , your story wasn't revelations, your story wasn't picked up more widely? it was only as far as i can see, the telegraph and the mail that reported on on nhs scotland uploading this draft. >> well, i think there are a couple of reasons for that. the first being that the story is so grotesque that most people might not tend to believe it or dismiss it as the realm of a conspiracy theory. regardless of the evidence that we provided in our reports . i the evidence that we provided in our reports. i also think that there is a tendency to hope for there is a tendency to hope for the best in your medical professionals. you don't want to have this view that someone that you're trusting with your health, or even the health of your child might be influenced by bad actors or even have a bad intention themselves. >> so genevieve gluck , there's a >> so genevieve gluck, there's a lot to explore here, and i think it would be fantastic to have you back on the show in some time so that we can explore this a little further. thank you ever so much forjoining me.

>> thank you so much for discussing this issue with me. >> now, i should add that gb news has seen evidence of what genevieve describes as a strong overlap between paraphilias and fetishists among some members of warpath, but we want to be clear that this does not reflect warpath as an organisation or its policies, and you can find more information about all of this from genevieve. genevieve research, and more specifically about the eunuch archives at redux.info. that's redux with two xs.info. helen, can i get your reaction to that interview? >> extraordinary journalism from genevieve and redux , i would genevieve and redux, i would say. and i would make a link back to something that robin said earlier, which was in answer to your question about what is gender identity. so for robin, it male and female robin, it was male and female essences, which are souls. some of us believe in souls and some of us believe in souls and some of us believe in souls and some of us don't, but there's no evidence about them. but i think genevieve puts it much better, which is that there are many different reasons why people

might to transition, why might seek to transition, or why they push they might seek to push transition on others. the disturbing that disturbing fact is that some of those are really those motives are really very unsavoury. are clearly unsavoury. there are clearly aduu unsavoury. there are clearly adult fantasise about adult men who fantasise about children transitioning. >> you know, if i went to >> and, you know, if i went to a doctor and said, i'd like to have my arms removed have both my arms removed because just want because because i just want it because my me to do it, my essence tells me to do it, they would presumably no. they would presumably say no. why be any different why should it be any different with testicles? why should it be any different witiwhat cles? actually do is >> what they'd actually do is send for a psych evaluation. send you for a psych evaluation. and you know the and i think, you know the question is asked and answered. >> i to ask also, >> yes. i want to ask you also, helen, something that helen, about something that robin earlier robin moira white said earlier and an allegation and this was an allegation really towards you that you had said every person said every trans person is a huge a sane world, huge problem in a sane world, and give you a right and i want to give you a right to reply on that. >> that was part of a larger segment in which i said something that think is more something that i think is more true day, which that true every day, which is that every who the every person who denies the reality immutable nature of reality and immutable nature of binary is a very big problem binary sex is a very big problem for rest of us. so. right. for the rest of us. so. right. so it's important that we clarify that, that you're not talking about people who just choose to identify a certain way and live their life in

and want to live their life in a certain way. it's the people who are trying to make the rest of us go along with their evidence free and in fact, false beliefs are problem, they are the problem, whether they identify are the problem, whether they ideii'm' are the problem, whether they ideii'm really glad we got to >> i'm really glad we got to clear that up, because i've seen a lot of people throw that accusation you, and it's accusation at you, and it's important that we you only have to at context it's to look at the context and it's clear thank clear to see absolutely. thank you. very much, helen. you. thank you very much, helen. well, that's all we've got well, look, that's all we've got time for this section. we've time for in this section. we've covered awful lot tonight and covered an awful lot tonight and we've got awful lot more to we've got an awful lot more to come later on. going to be come later on. we're going to be speaking fiona mckenna. we're speaking to fiona mckenna. we're going speaking to doctor going to be speaking to doctor as who used to work as hakim, who used to work at the we're the tavistock as well. we're also to speak to also going to speak to an individual who through individual who has been through the transitional process and has since i'd like since detransitioned. i'd like to well to neale hanvey to talk as well to neale hanvey mp, who's scottish alba party mp, who's a scottish alba party mp, who's a scottish alba party mp been some of mp who has been raising some of these in parliament, these concerns in parliament, but an lot of but getting an awful lot of pushback of that. in pushback as a result of that. in particular from one very vocal conservative mp debate last conservative mp in a debate last friday parliament. and friday in parliament. and i would the would like to consider the political ramifications of this as please do not go as well. please do not go anywhere. we've got a lot to cover in this special free

speech nation episode w speech nation episode on the w path. files go anywhere. path. files don't go anywhere. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. >> hello there. welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast from the met office. we're looking ahead to the new working week. it's going to remain a fairly changeable across the country, but increasingly mild. so as we end the weekend, we've still got this area of low pressure in charge. it will gradually move towards the continent as we go through into monday. but before we get there, we've still got this area of rain stretched right across the country. as we go country. it will weaken as we go through course of night, through the course of the night, and really, going to leave and really, it's going to leave behind quite a of mist, murk behind quite a lot of mist, murk and cloudy weather. but under the cloud, it's not going to be

a any most a cold night by any means. most of in frost free, of us stay in frost free, coldest of the temperatures up across north of across the very far north of scotland, for many it's a bit scotland, so for many it's a bit of a grey, murky start out there. on monday morning, some bits pieces of light rain bits and pieces of light rain and drizzle around, then and drizzle around, and then dunng and drizzle around, and then during of the day we during the course of the day we will see little bit more will see a little bit more persistent rain. just coming in across very far of across the very far west of scotland and parts of northern ireland. for the ireland. brightest for the weather down towards the weather will be down towards the south—west, here south—west, so here in any brightness we see highs brightness we will see highs reaching 11 or 12 reaching around 11 or 12 degrees. elsewhere, temperatures a on sunday, so a little bit up on sunday, so feeling a little bit less cold into tuesday. another band of rain works its way in from the southwest, the driest and the brightest weather reserved for the far north of scotland throughout the day. elsewhere, increasingly cloudy and wet as the day goes on, but it will drag in some milder air. so for everyone in the south by the middle of the we'll see middle of the week, we'll see temperatures reaching the mid teens, wet the teens, but staying wet in the north, that warm feeling north, so that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers sponsors of weather on

gb news. >> way . >> way. >> way. >> there's plenty more to come . >> there's plenty more to come. still on free speech nation this week, we're going to be having more discussions about the w path files with some special expert guests and one individual who now regrets the gender affirming that he received. affirming care that he received. but first, let's get the latest news headlines ray edison. news headlines from ray edison. >> good evening. our top stories tonight. two people have been arrested on suspicion of preventing a lawful and decent burial in yorkshire. branches of legacy. independent funeral directors in hull and east riding remain cordoned off. that's after concern for care of the deceased was reported to

police on wednesday . humberside police on wednesday. humberside police on wednesday. humberside police says 34 bodies have now been respectfully transported to a mortuary for formal identification . a 46 year old identification. a 46 year old man and a 23 year old woman are being questioned. they are also suspected of fraud by false representation and fraud by abuse of position . police say an abuse of position. police say an incident at buckingham palace is not being treated as terror related . armed officers detained related. armed officers detained a man in the early hours of yesterday morning after a car crashed into the gates. he was arrested on suspicion of criminal damage, then released on bail , and criminal damage, then released on bail, and has been sectioned under the mental health act . under the mental health act. pro—palestinian protesters are being warned they could be lending credence to extremists. the communities secretary is urging people to question which groups are organising these marches . michael gove is due to marches. michael gove is due to pubush marches. michael gove is due to publish a new official definition of extremism, told the sunday telegraph there's no excuse for ignorance and good hearted demonstrators need to be

aware that they risk fuelling hate and intimidation . london's hate and intimidation. london's jewish community has braved rainy weather today to demand the release of hostages being held in gaza . they joined jews held in gaza. they joined jews around the world blowing shofars traditional ram's horns, which are normally used at the holiest moments of the jewish calendar. the last fours in fighting between israel and hamas was back in november , when hamas back in november, when hamas released more than 100 hostages. it's believed that the terror organisation still holds around 134 people kidnapped during the october seven attack. a group of mothers are staging a hunger strike outside parliament. the five day protest aims to draw attention to parents who can't afford to eat, and are therefore skipping their own meals to feed their children. a list of demands includes enforcing free school meals and universal credit to guarantee life's

essentials. mps are due to address this this issue on tuesday . the princess of wales tuesday. the princess of wales has thanked the for public their support, as the first photo of the royal was published after her abdominal surgery. the image, posted on social media to mark mother's day, was taken by the prince of wales in windsor earlier this week. sitting down, princess catherine is surrounded by her children prince george, princess charlotte and prince louis. she was admitted to hospital on january 16th and left two weeks later following a planned operation. she is expected to return to her royal dufies expected to return to her royal duties after easter. for the latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. com slash alerts. now it's back to free speech nation.

>> welcome back to this special edition of free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. today we're talking about the path. file's path is the world professional association for transgender health. and these leaked files raise a lot of concerns about the organisation's recommendations and influence. now, as i mentioned in the previous section, we have been attempting to secure interviews with medical professionals who support gender affirmative care. we approached 33 different members of w path. we invited them to appear. all 33 said no or didn't get back to us at all. we also approached groups who have openly endorsed w path and its approach to gender affirmative care , in particular affirmative care, in particular stonewall, mermaids and gendered intelligence. we had no response from mermaids at all. gendered intelligence declined. stonewall said they would consider providing a statement, and we replied with a specific request about this tweet, which was posted on stonewall's official account on the 9th of june, 2023, in which stonewall endorses w path's standards of

care. and we asked the charity if it still stood by. this endorsed moment. in the light of the w path files we received no response, and when we emailed w path directly , we just received path directly, we just received the standard statement from the president of the organisation, marci bowers. and here's that statement in full. w path is and has always been a science and evidence based organisation whose recommendations are widely endorsed by major medical organisations around the world. we are the professionals who best know the medical needs of trans and gender diverse individuals and stand opposed to individuals and stand opposed to individuals who misrepresent and delegitimize the diverse identities and complex needs of this population through scare tactics. the world is not flat. gender like genitalia , is gender like genitalia, is represented by diversity. the small percentage of the population that is trans or gender diverse deserves health care and will never be a threat to the global gender binary .

to the global gender binary. now, to discuss this further, i'm delighted to be joined by the physician doctor carrie mendoza, who works with gen spec usa as director doctor mendoza, welcome to the show . i'd like to welcome to the show. i'd like to present some arguments from the other side of this debate to you, if you don't mind, because i do think it's crucial that we hear all sides, now, we've just heard, from, w path from the president of w path that those who criticise them are effectively flat earthers. they believe the earth is flat. or there's an analogy there. do you think that's fair ? think that's fair? >> i know, but first of all, thank you for having me on. and it's been an honour working on, on this issue. but the comment about being flat earthers really is echoing a non—science approach to a problem. and i think all of us working on this really feel that the opposite is the case, that there has been a lot of evolving data showing that the evidence for transition , especially for minors, is

really quite low quality , as really quite low quality, as well as increased evidence of d transitioners and concerns about their care and what happened with a misdiagnosis. so i really don't think that that's an accurate, you know, claim at all. >> so what you're saying is, i mean, it sounds very much like projection . it sounds like projection. it sounds like someone throwing out the accusation that he's likely to be thrown their way. is that a fair assessment ? fair assessment? >> yes. i do really think so, that it >> yes. i do really think so, thatitis >> yes. i do really think so, that it is more of a projection. and i think what's happened in the medical discussion is really taken over by activism rather than just a discussion of the pros and cons and the science . pros and cons and the science. and in health care, we don't try and silence debate amongst physicians. we try and encourage it. so i don't think that comment is really helpful for, you know, a high quality scientific discussion. >> now, professor stephen whittle, who's former president of w path, tweeted out a screenshot from a study which

suggested that there was a 99.7% success rate of gender affirming surgery. i spoke to robin moira white earlier, who said that there was a very, low rate of regret among those who transitioned. now, are you aware of the study that professor whittle is talking about, and does that not suggest that the gender affirming approach actually is effective ? actually is effective? >> yeah, that's a great question. i did, look deeper into that study. it's behind a firewall and once i read through the whole study, there's really a couple very interesting points. first of all, it's just one single centre , they they one single centre, they they said that the project was exempt from irb approval, meaning the normal approval process for, ethical studies wasn't done. they don't say why. also, a big limitation was they said that it was only the patients that came back to them that were included in the study. so we see there's

a big problem. there could be a lot of patients left out, people that didn't feel comfortable coming back, i also think, why would you go back to the surgeon that did your surgery? if you have regret, there's quite a big limitation there. so i think that number, that top line number really doesn't accurately reflect that, all the information that we're seeing that patients have a lot of concerns and they don't feel comfortable going back. they feel shamed, they don't have proper outlets to get the care that they need. so i think it's misleading . misleading. >> so in other words, almost 100% of the people who did feel it was successful that came back to say so felt that it was successful. in other words, all of the people who didn't aren't included in the sample. >> exactly right. it's >> that's exactly right. it's a small sample from one centre. and yes, you bring out. so you have to go the firewall have to go behind the firewall to that. yeah. to see that. yeah. >> okay. very interesting. so that's the, if you look at the,

pin of professor stephen pin tweet of professor stephen whittle's account, whittle's twitter account, that's that being that's the study that is being cited now, some w path cited there. now, some w path supporters, erin read of supporters, like erin read of erin morning on on x or erin in the morning on on x or twitter say that the files reflect , typical clinician reflect, typical clinician conversations and what is described as edge cases or just extreme cases. how do you respond to that ? respond to that? >> well, i you know , i just >> well, i you know, i just think that first of all, doctors don't talk like that, you know, aaron is not a physician, but i can tell you, as physicians , we can tell you, as physicians, we don't we don't talk like that. if there's a serious complication or some issue like cancen complication or some issue like cancer, that would be really raising alarm bells and we would be putting out alerts like, let's figure this out. these people are being harmed and we haven't seen any of that. and, you know, one person harmed or misdiagnosed is really what we call a never event . that's call a never event. that's a safety kind of conversation . and

safety kind of conversation. and health care, you know, we don't accidentally give people a medicine they're allergic to or accidentally cut off the wrong, you know, limb. when we're doing surgery, those are serious safety events. and so you know, folks that have had surgery been misdiagnosed , receiving misdiagnosed, receiving hormones, having exposure to , hormones, having exposure to, you know, this as a cancer situation . those aren't edge situation. those aren't edge cases. those are human beings that are being hurt. and so that's how doctors talk. we need to protect patients, doctor mendoza, regarding this concept of informed consent, w path files in the path files, clinicians are arguing that patients consent to many, many things in medicine , even when things in medicine, even when they don't understand the intricacies of those things. and the doctors on the path files are sort of suggesting they don't need to understand the example given is a diabetic taking insulin but doesn't need to understand how the pancreas

functions. gender medical care is that the same? is that a fair comparison ? comparison? >> i don't think that it is. so in the case, you know, with the diabetic, first of all, you can there are specific diagnostic tests to say this person is diabetic and this is the medicine that they need, and these are the doses that they needed in. and they can measure the effect of the treatment. we don't have any of that in gender medicine. it's clear that they don't know who they're diagnosing for what they have, just broaden out this treatment . just broaden out this treatment. but the assessments to call out people who don't fit, for example, with severe mental health issues or medication, adverse effects and cross—reactivity , they don't cross—reactivity, they don't talk about any of that. so they don't really have a clear diagnosis and a way to measure that, and then a way to track and measure the effects of the treatment. so i really don't think it's a fair comparison at

all. and we know from the files that they know the patients don't understand exposure to these lifelong issues, including potentially cancer . potentially cancer. >> and moving forward. what do you think needs to be done to restore ethical health care for gender medical care ? gender medical care? >> well, i think more conversations like, like you have been hosting, and i do want to say that, you know, i applaud the barrister for coming on and talking and having that that courage to discuss all of this. i we need much, much i think we need much, much better tracking. you know, we're in this this in a phase where this this intervention cross in intervention is wide cross in clinics and hospitals in the united states and elsewhere in the uk. so we really need to properly track, the dose of medications people are getting and the long tum side effects and the long tum side effects and that's just how medicine is, is practised. that's nothing to do with advocacy. we really just want, you know , people to get

want, you know, people to get the best health care, including folks who are trans identified. they shouldn't be subjected to medicines and procedures that aren't having the proper safety guardrails around them. >> doctor carrie mendoza, thank you so much forjoining me. you're welcome. thank you . and you're welcome. thank you. and next on free speech nation, i'm going to be speaking to doctor as hakim, consultant psychiatrist and medical psychotherapist and former tavistock trust doctor . and i'm tavistock trust doctor. and i'm also going to be speaking to fiona mckinnon, campaigner at fair play for women. i'll be back in a few moments.

>> welcome back to free speech nation. >> now, for some time now, it has been assumed that the affirmative approach to gender dysphoria is the only way to

prevent patient suicides. but last july , a letter to the wall last july, a letter to the wall street journal, signed by 21 leading professionals involved in the care of gender diverse youth, opposed the view that this form of treatment is optimal, and pointed out that there no secure evidence that there is no secure evidence that puberty blockers reduce the risk of ideation , and last of suicidal ideation, and last month this was confirmed in a major study published in the british journal based on british medical journal based on a finnish adolescents a group of finnish adolescents who being treated for who were being treated for gender between 1996 gender dysphoria between 1996 and discuss this and 2019. so, to discuss this and 2019. so, to discuss this and much, much more, i'm joined by doctor az hakim, consultant psychiatrist and former consultant in forensic psychotherapy at the tavistock, and fiona mckenna, campaigner at fair play for women . and we also fair play for women. and we also have buster here with us, which is a doctor as hakim's lovely hound , doctor hakim, i want to hound, doctor hakim, i want to ask you about this question about suicidal ideation. this has always been the claim that has always been the claim that has been made by activists. would you rather have a trans child or a dead child? it's

almost like emotional blackmail for parents. but hasn't this been completely blown out of the water by these studies? >> nasty rhetoric. it's >> it's nasty rhetoric. it's nonsense. there was actually nonsense. so there was actually more in bmj. more than one study in the bmj. there's studies have there's repeated studies have shown affirming care shown that gender affirming care has little or no impact on psychiatric morbidity and the mental health of trans identified kids . yes. in fact, identified kids. yes. in fact, studies show the opposite that people who go through this have quite an abundance of mental health problems. so it's bandied around as if it's a fact, but it's one of these post—truth facts that has no basis in reality . reality. >> now, as someone who worked for the tavistock, i mean, you understand this more than most, i think. but can you just talk to us a about that? to us a bit about that? because there to these there are other aspects to these patients that need to be patients lives that need to be explored, need to considered. explored, need to be considered. but tavistock, am i right in but the tavistock, am i right in thinking was just with the thinking was just going with the w model, which is the w path model, which is the affirm i believe in affirm gender. i believe in 2013, there was an nhs document stating explicitly that the tavistock was following a w path

standards of care. am i right about that? >> yeah. so just just to make it clear to your viewers that i, i was the portman, which was was at the portman, which was part tavistock and i was part of the tavistock and i was leading a psychotherapy only service . so whilst i was service. so whilst i was training i attached to the training i was attached to the gids service. the child gender clinic. yes. and was a voice clinic. yes. and i was a voice of dissent because i thought what they doing is what they were doing is nonsense. as i frequently nonsense. and as i frequently said when said one of the said when i said one of the people leading the clinic, what isn't what you're doing mad because aren't these young boys just up to be gay just going to grow up to be gay men? and the i got was, men? and the answer i got was, would it be any more mad if they were gay? so was were gay? so. so this was a clinic which which believed that a homosexual outcome was a bad outcome. so it's to outcome. so it's better to convert them into a trans heterosexual child than than heterosexual child than a than a homosexual child. so that's the bafis homosexual child. so that's the basis of what the clinic was, was formed on. and that's the nhs. yeah. that was the nhs. >> i mean, you're talking about the kind of mentality that informs the mullahs of tehran, the people in iran that say we will fund sex change operations

for gay people because otherwise we'll be hanging them. by craig. it was specialist it was a small specialist service then, which was left alone, of the time alone, and most of the time i thought didn't want anything to do with it. >> and turned a blind eye. >> and they turned a blind eye. so they were to do so they were allowed to do whatever wanted. then it whatever they wanted. then it grew tumour. now grew like a tumour. and now whenever you the word whenever you hear the word tavistock, associates whenever you hear the word tawith ck, associates whenever you hear the word tawith ck, but associates whenever you hear the word tawith ck, but when ociates whenever you hear the word tawith ck, but when o> yes. very interesting because we're about this we're talking about this influence nhs on influence of the nhs of path on the nhs. fiona, you've been the nhs. and fiona, you've been considering the considering this notion of the software, computer software, the, the computer software, the, the computer software has been software that the nhs has been adopting in certain trusts, which believe has come which i believe has come straight w this right? >> yes. so in america w path persuaded software companies and indeed to build indeed the government to build gender and, and of gender identity and, and all of the associated requirements into the associated requirements into the software that is used in health care systems and now the nhs is adopting that same american so we're american software. so we're seeing nhs trusts rolling out patient records where if you walked in, andrew, they wouldn't ask you whether you were a man or a woman. they'd ask you whether were cisgender or whether you were cisgender or transgender other

transgender or some other identity. because identity. and then because they've obfuscated plain old male and female, which of course is entirely predictive of , of is entirely predictive of, of your health care, you know, youn your health care, you know, your, the component parts of your, the component parts of your body because they've kind of replaced that with gender identity . they're now asking identity. they're now asking people an organ people to go through an organ inventory . so you potentially inventory. so you potentially have a situation where someone walks up to check in for their appointment in a hospital, and they have to answer questions about which sex parts they've got, which. about which sex parts they've got so hich. talking about which sex parts they've gotsohich. talking about >> so you're talking about organs, genitals. yes, yes. and declare the declare your genitals on the form. indeed. form. yes indeed. >> you or your grandmother >> so you or your grandmother could you've could be asked whether you've got a penis or ovaries or both. >> i mean, is just clear >> i mean, that is just clear evidence ideological capture. >> i mean, that is just clear ewoulda ideological capture. >> i mean, that is just clear ewould havedeological capture. >> i mean, that is just clear ewould have thought.l capture. >> i mean, that is just clear ewould have thought.l capthis i would have thought. and this is called epic. is software called epic. >> it's called epic. a number of nhs trusts already rolled nhs trusts have already rolled it spent getting it out. they've spent getting for on billion already. for on half £1 billion already. it continuing. it is in use it is continuing. it is in use as far as we know, and i have heard instances of how it's already causing confusion both in the us and in the uk. so let me give you a couple of examples. and this is why this

matters to all of us. because it is. it is trashing our our nhs andifs is. it is trashing our our nhs and it's introducing greater risk of medical error. you know, carrie about medical carrie talked about medical error. happens when error. that's what happens when you confuse people. so there was a case in a a published case in a respectable american journal of a young man who was in the emergency room with severe abdominal pain , and nobody knew. abdominal pain, and nobody knew. and this person didn't say he was actually a pregnant woman who'd been taking testosterone . who'd been taking testosterone. and by the time the hospital staff understood that this person with a beard in front of them actually was a woman in late pregnancy with pre—eclampsia, the baby had died . couldn't be saved. now, we're not at that point yet in the uk, but someone who works with sick babies in a hospital here in the uk told me that one of the things is very important in records of paediatrics is that, you know, the gestational age of the baby, in other words, was it premature or not? and this person told me that they had seen medical records for two very babies , ten months old very sick babies, ten months old

and 16 months for which and 16 months old, for which they had not recorded the gestational age. but they did have their pronouns. >> so we're talking about, again, gender identity. it goes back to this point about gender identity, hakim , i'm identity, doctor hakim, i'm really shocked at those stories that fiona said. i haven't heard those before. i mean, that i find absolutely incredible. and this is i say, the nhs. now, this is, as i say, the nhs. now, when a medical body becomes infected with an ideology that is effectively anti—science or pseudoscientific, i mean, this is a disaster, isn't it? >> yes. but we've seen the capture of the general medical council, the bma, the royal college psychiatrists, all college of psychiatrists, all the colleges , they've all the royal colleges, they've all been captured. and i teach medical students from a very reputable central london medical school, and they're captured i >> -- >> well, people won't believe me, but you can go to their websites, the organisations you just mentioned, they have direct links version links to warpath's version eight, of care, which eight, standards of care, which tells eunuch is a tells people that eunuch is a legitimate identity. legitimate gender identity. >> and they probably >> this is, and they probably haven't read the wpf haven't even read the wpf guidelines. they probably haven't even critiqued what the

how guidelines forms, how the guidelines forms, because rely on evidence because doctors rely on evidence based practice guidelines. and so there's an element of trust. yes. if we're told that there are international guidelines by professionals, we trust that. but as your previous guests have said , they're not professionals. said, they're not professionals. anybody can join. and they're mainly activists. >> but isn't it absolutely essential that you know whether the patient is male or female? you know, i would have thought that i you know, i don't mean to be flippant, but i would have thought that a medical practitioner would, would, would, perfectly respect would, would perfectly respect someone rights their someone else's rights to their own system. actually, someone else's rights to their own know, system. actually, someone else's rights to their own know, syste you actually, someone else's rights to their own know, syste you go actually, someone else's rights to their own know, syste you go to ually, someone else's rights to their own know, syste you go to the y, you know, when you go to the doctors, you don't them if doctors, you don't tell them if you're catholic or marxist you're a catholic or a marxist or anything, but what you've got you're a catholic or a marxist oranything, but what you've got you're a catholic or a marxist ora bit1ing, but what you've got you're a catholic or a marxist ora bit like but what you've got you're a catholic or a marxist ora bit like 1984,rhat you've got you're a catholic or a marxist ora bit like 1984, george|'ve got is a bit like 1984, george orwell all the doctors and medical students know what they really they're really think, but they're going along charade along with the charade because they that's they're they think that's what they're meant do. meant to do. >> when i teach, the >> yes. so when i teach, the medical students say, look, i virtually nearly sheikh sense into them. they say, didn't virtually nearly sheikh sense into tyou. they say, didn't virtually nearly sheikh sense into tyou werey say, didn't virtually nearly sheikh sense into tyou were allowed didn't virtually nearly sheikh sense into tyou were allowed dithink think you were allowed to think like know, they're all like that. you know, they're all thinking, well, two and two is five, isn't but they know

five, isn't it? but they know it's four. so they all the doctors i've spoken they're it's four. so they all the docgroundedpoken they're it's four. so they all the docgrounded in ken they're it's four. so they all the docgrounded in ken tr sense, all grounded in common sense, but think not but they think they're not allowed common sense allowed to show the common sense because they have to go along with this mantra the ideology. >> can i bring fiona in on that point? is it the case? do you think that what doctor hakim has just people within just described of people within the profession? would imagine just described of people within the ppeople n? would imagine just described of people within the ppeople n? the)uld imagine just described of people within the p people n? the profession, e most people in the profession, i would imagine most doctors know the between man and the difference between a man and a to a woman, but not being able to say that because they're say so is that because they're intimidated? mean, seen intimidated? i mean, we've seen some of the behaviour of trans activists be very activists can be very frightening, intimidating. frightening, very intimidating. or is it because they've actually quasi actually bought into this quasi religious system? actually bought into this quasi religimean, system? actually bought into this quasi religimean, you system? actually bought into this quasi religimean, you know, ? actually bought into this quasi religimean, you know, just like >> i mean, you know, just like the belief itself, who knows what's someone else's head? the belief itself, who knows whawhat someone else's head? the belief itself, who knows whawhat we neone else's head? the belief itself, who knows whawhat we do ne else's head? the belief itself, who knows whawhat we do know.e's head? the belief itself, who knows whawhat we do know is; head? the belief itself, who knows whawhat we do know is that d? the belief itself, who knows whawhat we do know is that they but what we do know is that they all feel they have to go along with they have to ask with this. they have to ask people know, about people, you know, all about their organs. could you be pregnant? you know, what's your identity? so identity? all this stuff. and so the that places on the burden that that places on health that health care staff is that they're getting caught up in a whole lot of irrelevant information actually gets whole lot of irrelevant inithe ation actually gets whole lot of irrelevant inithe way] actually gets whole lot of irrelevant inithe way of actually gets whole lot of irrelevant inithe way of what's|ally gets whole lot of irrelevant inithe way of what's important. in the way of what's important. and thing that and just one final thing that matters all of us, because matters to all of us, because that's not helpful in health

care, but people should care, but the people who should care, but the people who should care who care most are the people who advocate trans identifying advocate for trans identifying people they're the ones people because they're the ones whose is at the greatest whose health is at the greatest risk their is not risk if their sex is not correctly recorded and identified when present in hospital. >> i mean, in some of this software that describing, software that you're describing, is case? i mean, is it not the case? i mean, maybe this is wishful thinking, but biological but perhaps it says biological sex. to it, if you sex. and then next to it, if you have gender identity, feel have a gender identity, feel free declare it here. free to declare it here. >> well, i think you've just solved what should be, but solved what it should be, but that's what it is. because that's not what it is. because don't forget what w path that's not what it is. because don't f01for: what w path that's not what it is. because don't f01for in what w path that's not what it is. because don't f01for in the vhat w path that's not what it is. because don't f01for in the us, w path that's not what it is. because don't f01for in the us, and ath that's not what it is. because don't f01for in the us, and it's lobbied for in the us, and it's now being adopted here, that now being adopted here, is that everyone up to this. everyone has to sign up to this. so there's a very complex set of questions. there's legal sex, there's gender. all there's cis gender. all these identity . so no, it's not identity things. so no, it's not that simple. identity things. so no, it's not tha finally, . identity things. so no, it's not tha finally, doctor hakim, i >> finally, doctor hakim, i mean, isn't it the case that mean, but isn't it the case that the hippocratic oath says first, mean, but isn't it the case that the no ppocratic oath says first, mean, but isn't it the case that the no harm?:ic oath says first, mean, but isn't it the case that the no harm? you ath says first, mean, but isn't it the case that the no harm? you know, is first, mean, but isn't it the case that theno harm? you know, youst, mean, but isn't it the case that theno harm? you know, you have do no harm? you know, you have to be doing what is right for the patient, what is right the patient, not what is right for kind of esoteric belief for some kind of esoteric belief system. so why is that. system. so why is it that. i mean, i know you say that doctors aren't speaking out and maybe intimidation. maybe it's intimidation. >> are being fed >> the doctors are being fed these of statistics which these lies of statistics which are like regret

are false, like the 1% regret rate. as your previous guest said, a nonsensical study. said, it's a nonsensical study. >> well, tell us about that, because last said that because the last guest said that very few people regret the transitional surgery. very few people regret the trar nonsense, rgery. very few people regret the trarnonsense, nonsense. so >> nonsense, nonsense. so when i ran my therapy service, 26% of my patients were regrets and none of them had been followed up. they were invisible data. no one had asked them. the gids clinic didn't follow anyone up. the gender clinics, to the adult gender clinics, to my knowledge, anyone knowledge, don't follow anyone up and there isn't really a good tool to measure outcomes. so a number of years ago, my research team and i in australia invented a i've since contacted a tool. i've since contacted every clinic and said, every gender clinic and said, would you like to use it for free? and they've all not replied. none of them have replied. none of them have replied. so there's way of replied. so there's no way of collecting evidence. well, collecting the evidence. well, there they don't it collecting the evidence. well, therthey they don't it collecting the evidence. well, therthey tdon't on't it collecting the evidence. well, therthey tdon't collect it, and they just don't collect it, which the one cassie's which is the one of cassie's criticisms of the service. >> so we should mistrust any studies are telling studies that are telling us everyone with the surgery. >> nonsense, nonsense. >> nonsense, nonsense. >> you've written >> okay. and you've written a book about this, de trans de trans. >> yes. yep. >> yes. yep. >> so that's available now. okay. well, doctor okay. fantastic. well, doctor hakim and fiona mckenna, thank

you much joining you both very much for joining me. appreciate it. thank you. >> thanks. thank you. and thank you buster as well . you buster as well. >> now next on free speech nafion >> now next on free speech nation i'm going to be talking to alba mp neale hanvey, who has been raising concerns about gender affirming care in parliament. i'm going parliament. and also, i'm going to a young person to be speaking to a young person who has detransitioned after receiving gender care. receiving gender affirming care. don't anywhere.

>> welcome back to this special edition of free speech nation with me. >> andrew doyle. today we're talking about w pat the world professional association for transgender health, and the leaked concerns leaked files that raise concerns about and global about their policies and global influence. mp neale influence. alba party mp neale hanvey been raising concerns hanvey has been raising concerns in parliament about the risks to young gay people that come from

gender affirming care, but this is often fallen on deaf ears. unfortunately, i'm going to be speaking to neil in a moment, but before i get to that, to neil, i want to talk to someone who has had direct experience of such treatment. now, richie heron has been kind enough to join us. he's down the line. richie, can you hear me ? just richie, can you hear me? just having slight technical difficulties. we'll if we difficulties. we'll see if we can him now . difficulties. we'll see if we can him now. hi, difficulties. we'll see if we can him now . hi, richie. are can get him now. hi, richie. are you there ? you there? >> yes. hi, andrew. thanks very much for having me on. and i just want to say a big thank you to for, neil advocating for us in parliament, we do take notice, and we greatly appreciate that. thank you. neil >> absolutely. richie. now tell us about your experience. what happened with you, i transitioned at the age of 26, but because of the 20 1213 interim nhs protocols, which were backed by the w path guidelines , i was able to use

guidelines, i was able to use a privately paid assessment to start a testosterone blocker before it even been seen by the gender clinic. and then i was assessed there, and it was a affirmation only route, which i would like to say is being challenged, in a high court decision on the 26th of this month , by the case ran by anna month, by the case ran by anna castle and the other parent. and the reason for that is i'm not sure if a lot of people realise that, although the children's services may not be using the w path guidelines, when as soon as they turn 16 or 17, they are instantly being referred to the aduu instantly being referred to the adult specs er services which do use those guidelines, which hopefully, will be challenged at the end of this month. >> that's a very important point, richie, isn't it? because you were a little older, you were 26. there are some people

who go this much, much who go through this much, much younger. of course, as w younger. but of course, as the w path files show, this isn't just about children. it's about vulnerable as well. and vulnerable adults as well. and you you would have fallen you would you would have fallen into category. into into that category. now a lot seem to be lot of the files seem to be quite, dismissive of, of concerns detransition as concerns of detransition as there's, for instance, there's one, in the w path files one, clinic in the w path files that yes, regret. it's that says, yes, regret. it's there . and i don't think that there. and i don't think that surprises us. so they're fully aware . can i give another couple aware. can i give another couple of examples. there's this document the w path files document from the w path files a clinician is saying if an individual feels they individual patient feels they made careful with made a mistake, be careful with that. us change the that. not letting us change the way that others others receive care. here you've got another doctor saying patients need to own and take active responsibility for medical decisions, especially those that have potentially permanent effects. richie, what do you think about that? >> well, to that i would say w path. i'm sorry for swearing, but i would just quickly apologise to anyone watching who was offended by the language . was offended by the language. >> but richie, i completely understand the strength of

emotion so please emotion here, so please do continue, to be honest, continue, well, to be honest, the way detransition is a threat not only by the professional, the medical community, but the trans community is really disgusting. we are forgotten about. disgusting. we are forgotten about . we're not even counted. about. we're not even counted. in fact, if i was to go back to the gender clinic, which i am very reluctant to do, so, i would be counted as another successful transition. my detransition is not counted because it would be then marked from female back to male. >> absolutely astonishing stuff. richie, thanks so much for telling us what happened to you. i really appreciate that. i'd just to reiterate to anyone just like to reiterate to anyone at home was offended by the at home who was offended by the language, apologise for the language, we apologise for the use that language. but use of that language. but obviously neil, richie is very upset. and it's upset. rightly so. and it's going to come out that way. >> yeah, absolutely. and i think, you know, there there has to be a certain level of understanding that we're talking about, malpractice, medical malpractice on a scale that i

have never witnessed in my life before. my background's in health care, and some of the stories that have been set out by w path really chilled me to the core. >> and we're seeing how they're influencing the uk. that's that's the dangerous thing here for us. >> it's there's almost it's like everything with queer theory, the standards , the principles, the standards, the principles, everything's inverted, everything's inverted, everything's turned upside down. and so and that is exactly what we're looking at here. the type of practice that's been described in the w path files is absolute anathema to everything that i witnessed in my professional career. >> but neil, i just get the impression that people in parliament and i'm not i'm speaking generally here that they're not interested, you know, i mean, we have now, various people on the on labour in the conservatives alicia kearns, for instance , who had a kearns, for instance, who had a go at you in parliament. they're supporting ban on what supporting a ban on what they call trans therapy. call trans conversion therapy. what effectively what they're effectively doing is opposing the thorough the psychotherapeutic approach to

deaung psychotherapeutic approach to dealing with people's problems like richie experienced. yes. and they're effectively. and what they're effectively. sorry. i'll let you speak about that. >> yeah. n that. >> yeah. i mean, you're >> yeah. well, i mean, you're entirely mean, is entirely correct. i mean, it is a conversion therapy ban a trans conversion therapy ban is the green light for gay conversion therapy to trans away the gay to consign young , gender the gay to consign young, gender non—conforming young people to a lifetime of medical and surgical interventions and promises that can never be realised . these are can never be realised. these are completely unrealistic , completely unrealistic, expectations. these young people are being sold , they're being are being sold, they're being lied to. and there's a fundamental absence of consent. and when you talk about the behaviours of certain mps and the like, look, we've got this scandal is has a medical component with medical practice that would never be tolerated in any other field of medicine. i'm absolutely clear about that. we have a societal challenge where our norms and culture are being

infiltrated by a dangerous ideology. this is not about trans people. this is the insinuation of queer theory into every institution. and we have another scandal, which is the silence of the media, the lack of reporting into one of the greatest medical scandals we have ever witnessed in a way that would never have happened on anything else . i mean, if you on anything else. i mean, if you look at alder hey bristol, the mesh scandal, and many, many other medical scandals or indeed safeguarding scandals like gbp and victoria climbie , the media and victoria climbie, the media were all over them. but we have people like richie and keira and many, many others , like shinade many, many others, like shinade watson, for example, who's not necessarily a gender non—conforming person, but found her into this situation in a very different way. these are detransitioners that you mentioned. that's right. they're all being ignored . now, i'm all being ignored. now, i'm surprised by that scandal is being ignored. i mean, i you know, i hate to say it, but i

believe that gb news is the only news channel that has covered this at all. >> yes, many, many national newspapers have completely newspapers have just completely left echoes left this alone. it has echoes in a way, of the grooming gang scandal, where was this, scandal, where there was this, you know, rape and sexual assault a mass scale and assault on a mass scale and everyone, including the police, were go were saying, just just don't go near don't touch it. now near it. don't touch it. now that that's what's happening here, isn't yeah, absolutely. >> you know, there >> 100. and, you know, there are no answers to why that's no good answers as to why that's happening. now, i from my happening. now, i know from my experience political party experience in my political party that i put my hand up that because i put my hand up and spoke out this in that because i put my hand up and s i)ke out this in that because i put my hand up and si wasyut this in that because i put my hand up and si was targeted this in that because i put my hand up and si was targeted and in 2019, i was targeted and bullied. and that people bullied. and i know that people are very frightened of that, and are very frightened of that, and a lot people don't really a lot of people don't really understand at play here. understand what's at play here. they understand what queer they don't understand what queer theory there's theory is about. and so there's a misinformation, disinformation and fear seem to be the tools and fear seem to be the tools and weapons that are keeping people silent. >> well, i can ask you, because inoficed >> well, i can ask you, because i noticed a lot of people say that you're being bigoted, you're being transphobic, you're being hateful. this is the thing that the likes of alicia kearns are i should also say are saying. i should also say i've alicia kearns onto i've invited alicia kearns onto

this show hopefully for next week. she can come week. i really hope she can come because love to have this because i'd love to have this conversation with her because i think must be a think there must be a misunderstanding. and i think people kearns people like alicia kearns simply don't the issues. don't understand the issues. they it's bigotry. they assume it's hate bigotry. it's of that. it's the opposite of that. >> i think alicia, >> well, i think alicia, demonstrated exactly that counter point and that inversion of reality. yes she stood up, had a homophobic rant at a gay man, felt justified as a heterosexual woman to do that , heterosexual woman to do that, and didn't see the dissonance in her position . her position. >> but you don't think that if she realised that if her if she got her way, if that policy went through, she would be greenlighting gay conversion therapy. do you think if she realised that she wouldn't support it? >> i think if she was prepared to listen for long enough to really problem, really understand the problem, she there. but i fear she might get there. but i fear she might get there. but i fear she is, like so many others, frightened to actually listen to the arguments. >> okay, well, neale hanvey, i really appreciate coming on. really appreciate you coming on. thanks us tonight . thanks for joining us tonight. and next on free speech nation,

i'm going to be talking to psychotherapist stella o'malley, who is the executive director and founder of gen spect. please don't go anywhere

welcome back to this special edition of free speech nation . edition of free speech nation. today we're talking about the w path files. now, w path has over the years been instrumental in modifying general medical practice when it comes to what it calls gender medicine. previously, were previously, individuals were diagnosed identity diagnosed with gender identity disorder. has changed disorder. but this has changed to of gender to the designation of gender dysphoria. this signifies a shift from treating patients with psychiatric therapy to insisting that the best way to help those patients is medical intervention. as such , intervention. as such, psychotherapeutic approaches are rarely explored and doctors that do this they risk being accused of practising trans conversion therapy. so joining me now to

discuss this , i'm pleased to discuss this, i'm pleased to welcome psychotherapist stella o'malley, executive director of gen spect. welcome stella , with gen spect. welcome stella, with all that we've heard tonight, there has to be a better way . is there has to be a better way. is it the case that doctors who want to explore these issues through psycho therapy, treating it as psychiatric condition it as a psychiatric condition rather just medicalizing rather than just medicalizing it, are being accused it, that they are being accused of trying to people ? of trying to convert people? >> yeah, we've lost our way with this. you know, like the least invasive first has long been established as the best procedure for anything. so if you came in to a doctor with a headache, they don't go straight to brain surgery. they go step by increasing every time. by step, increasing every time. yes. what we should yes. and that's what we should do with, of course, with gender dysphoria, just like we do with every other distress and pain that there is. >> and of course, sometimes risky are risky medical procedures are necessary, aren't they? >> are, but it's not >> yeah, they are, but it's not in this context. it's a last resort. it's a last resort. it's when, for example, cancer would be very good one, whether when be a very good one, whether when it's life threatening and you're

in really , really serious and we in really, really serious and we have other options. so we're have no other options. so we're going to go into this experimental realm, but we're nowhere near this with gender dysphoria, absolutely nowhere near we've got a lot of near it. we've got a lot of information and feedback from people who have gender distress, and generally they need to be connected. they need some help. they need some mental health. if we look back at the lobotomy scandal, i mean, it's very interesting to note that a lot of people positions of power of people in positions of power and were the and influence were the ones defending it. >> the medical establishment were saying, this is were saying, no, this is absolutely right thing to absolutely the right thing to do. it was other people who do. and it was other people who had back and say, no, had to push back and say, no, this is absolutely wrong, isn't that what's going that comparable to what's going on very comparable. and you >> very comparable. and you know, the w path files give a brilliant report other brilliant report of other medical scandals have medical scandals that have happened. and it's quite clear that medical scandals, happened. and it's quite clear thatdoctors medical scandals, happened. and it's quite clear thatdoctors don'tiical scandals, happened. and it's quite clear thatdoctors don't back;candals, happened. and it's quite clear thatdoctors don't back down..s, the doctors don't back down. they continue that their they continue to say that their way the better way. doctors way is the better way. doctors aren't psychotherapists and people who are. in my profession. sometimes profession. we can sometimes suffer from a god complex, sometimes the saviour sometimes want to be the saviour , the person who fixes it. and i

think everybody who works in a career, they they like to have the new solution . and so they the new solution. and so they kind of get very wedded to this idea that this is going to fix everybody. >> but, mean, wasn't >> but, i mean, i wasn't familiar with the ovariectomy scandal 17th century, scandal of the 17th century, where had their ovaries where women had their ovaries removed hysteria. removed to cure their hysteria. i it shouldn't be i mean, i it shouldn't be comparable, but it is. yeah. >> and the multiple personality scandal that happened in the 1990s where doctors were diagnosing all sorts of different personalities. and again, it was a scandal. and again, it was a scandal. and again, psychiatrists and psychologists and psychotherapists , they went too psychotherapists, they went too far. they got too excited. they got very vain and very full of their own ideas of diagnosis. and it died out from backlash from the ordinary people coming up saying, this isn't working for me, and that's what's happening this time. but do these w path files sort of suggest to parents who might be going through who might going through this, who might have who's saying that have a child who's saying that they're they're born in the wrong body, actually, in a wrong body, that actually, in a sense, the medical sense, with the medical establishment instantly establishment just instantly affirming that, that actually

the have to the parents are going to have to really to allow their really fight to allow their child puberty. really fight to allow their chiiyeah. puberty. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> there's devastating >> there's two devastating aspects one is that aspects for that. one is that the families are ripped the families are being ripped apart the believes apart because the child believes that this gender that they have this gender identity them. they identity within them. they believe clinicians say believe the clinicians who say don't worry, we can medicalize you can put you on a new you and we can put you on a new path with a new identity and a new life. that's very new life. and that's very alluring for a and lonely alluring for a lost and lonely kid. they're kind of pitted kid. and they're kind of pitted against parent, against their parent, who are told that old fashioned told that their old fashioned old trans phobic. so old hat and trans phobic. so that's devastating for a family. and then secondly, these kids are being robbed of their sexual development. so their ability to go through those crushes, checking out the opposite sex, or checking out the same sex attraction , falling in love, attraction, falling in love, that feeling of looking at others and looking for a mate. it lasts your whole life and it begins in your sexual awakening. and it's cognitively everything is going on. you're starting to appreciate poetry and music and films because you're starting to appreciate love. they're being robbed of that because their

sexual awakening is being actually blocked. >> it's barbaric. >> it's barbaric. >> and my understanding is that most of these feelings of gender dysphoria are resolved through puberty. we're blocking the cure. >> yeah. most most the vast majority of young children who have dysphoria , if have gender dysphoria, if they're allowed to go through puberty, the sexual awakening that comes brings them around to their own body and they become comfortable in their own body. >> and very finally, stella, because we're running out of time. i'm sorry, but what do we do? what next? would do? what next? what would what approach to see approach would you like to see the profession take? the medical profession take? >> w path has been >> well, w path has been discredited. so medical discredited. so the medical profession immediately need to address the that they've address the fact that they've lost they need to say lost their way. they need to say sorry. to go back sorry. they need to go back to bafics sorry. they need to go back to basics, back to the least invasive first, and start bringing on just a gentle , bringing on just a gentle, cautious, therapeutic and psychological approach to psychological approach to psychological distress. >> well, a lot of people have said watchful waiting when it comes to young people. absolutely. so, o'malley, thank you so much forjoining me. really appreciate that. so what

have we learned from the w path files ? well, we already knew files? well, we already knew that w paths ideas are informed by the notion of what they call gender identity. this idea that we have an innate gendered essence as an earlier guest of mine described it, that it's possible to feel a misalignment between this soul and the body . between this soul and the body. now let's just remind ourselves of w path's definition of gender identity. so w path says gender identity. so w path says gender identity refers to a person's deeply felt internal intrinsic sense of their own gender. here's a definition from the website of stonewall, the uk's foremost lgbt charity. a person's innate sense of their own gender, whether male, female or something else. c non—binary , or something else. c non—binary, which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned at birth . to the sex assigned at birth. now, in both cases, we are seeing a circular definition going on. their gender apparently refers to a person's genden apparently refers to a person's gender. it's not very helpful,

is it? now perhaps the nhs could provide further details on this. how does the nhs website define gender identity? it says gender identity is a way to describe a person's innate sense of their own gender, whether male, female or non—binary , which may not or non—binary, which may not correspond to the sex registered at birth. and if you've ever doubted the influence of stonewall on our own national health service, you might want to reflect on why both organisations define gender identity with virtually identical phrasing. so if we are now routinely medicalizing those whose gender identity does not augn whose gender identity does not align with their bodies, is it not concerning that nobody seems to be able to define what it is that they're actually treating? why are some doctors castrate people who claim that their innate gender identity is that of a eunuch? why are children being told that they might have been born into the wrong body, when such a thing is possible? this is ideology, not science .

this is ideology, not science. we've seen this across the board with the infection of this ideology in all forms of institutions civic, governmental . we've seen it in the arts, we've seen it in the media, we've seen it in the media, we've seen it in the judiciary, we've seen it in the judiciary, we've seen it in the police, and we've seen it in the police, and we've seen it in the nhs. this is a very scary state of affairs. how did we get here? how is it that the ideology of queer theory and the notion that we each have gendered essence we each have a gendered essence within us, how did that take hold in a society? how did it take hold in the nhs, a body thatis take hold in the nhs, a body that is supposed to be committed to the pursuit of truth, that is supposed be evidence based in supposed to be evidence based in its not its approach? it's really not clear how this happened, clear to me how this happened, but we and the path but here we are and the path files appear to expose this for what is. and we've seen it what it is. and we've seen it before. we've here before before. we've been here before with lobotomy scandal, with the lobotomy scandal, where it medical who it was the medical elites who persisted in these deadly operations. you had journalists at the time supporting these operations. ordinary people weren't to do anything weren't able to do anything about it. they just had to stand by and watch their relatives being tortured and killed. and it didn't go away. now,

eventually, of those eventually, many of those doctors did repent. they looked back and they said, we got that wrong. now, tragically, that was far late for lot of their far too late for a lot of their victims, and i call them victims pointedly. moment we are pointedly. at the moment we are talking patient use of talking about patient use of gender should gender medicine. should we perhaps phraseology? perhaps change the phraseology? should about the should we be talking about the victims this, of this cult? victims of this, of this cult? now, we don't always learn from history. the w path files suggest that we are experiencing a comparable situation today, and perhaps the key difference here is that it would seem that the medical experts involved are fully aware of the dangers. they are fully aware that these procedures are experimental, and they are fully aware that in many cases, people have been subject to irreversible surgery without giving informed consent. this is one of the features that the w path files prove, not necessarily w path in of itself, but that certain members within its community know that what they are doing is problematic, but they persist in any case. and that's what happens with

ideology , i'm afraid. and this ideology, i'm afraid. and this is, of course, particularly the case with children with adolescents, with other vulnerable adults. and now we're in situation where the two in a situation where the two major political parties in the uk support a ban on trans conversion therapy. where are we going go after this ? who going to go after this? who knows? given the fact that knows? but given the fact that so have relied on w path so many have relied on w path standards of care, we really have to a conversation have to have a conversation about this. thanks for joining me . me. >> that warm feeling inside died from boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news. >> hello there. welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast from the met office. we're looking ahead to the new working week. it's going to remain a fairly changeable across the country, but increasingly mild. so we end the weekend , we've so as we end the weekend, we've still got this area of low pressure in charge. it will gradually move towards the continent go through into

continent as we go through into monday . but before we get there, monday. but before we get there, we've still got this area of rain stretched right across the country. will as we go country. it will weaken as we go through course of the night, through the course of the night, and really, it's going to leave behind quite a lot mist, murk behind quite a lot of mist, murk and weather. but under and cloudy weather. but under the it's going to be the cloud, it's not going to be a night by any means. most a cold night by any means. most of in frost free, of us stay in frost free, coldest the temperatures up coldest of the temperatures up across north of across the very far north of scotland, for many it's a bit scotland, so for many it's a bit of a grey, murky start out there. on morning, some there. on monday morning, some bits light rain bits and pieces of light rain and drizzle around, and then dunng and drizzle around, and then during the course of the day we will a little bit more will see a little bit more persistent rain just coming in across far west across the very far west of scotland. northern scotland. and parts of northern ireland. the ireland. brightest of the weather down towards the weather will be down towards the south—west, here in south—west, so here in any brightness will highs brightness we will see highs reaching around or 12 reaching around 11 or 12 degrees. elsewhere, temperatures a bit up on sunday, so a little bit up on sunday, so feeling a little bit less cold into tuesday. another band of rain works its way in from the southwest. the driest and the brightest weather reserved for the far north of scotland throughout the day. elsewhere increasingly cloudy and wet as the goes on, but it will

the day goes on, but it will drag in some milder air. so for everyone in the south by the middle of the week we'll see temperatures reaching the mid—teens. in

gb news. >> it's 9:00 on television, onune >> it's 9:00 on television, online and on radio. this is mark dolan tonight in my opinion, as a man is arrested for saying hamas are terrorists. british policing has lost the plot. whose side are our hapless cops on my mark meets guest is former russian prime minister mikhail kasyanov, who served under vladimir putin for four years. who will win the war in ukraine? is world war iii still a risk? and is vladimir putin an evil man in the big story? tory clamours for a return of boris johnson to frontline politics are getting louder. so do they

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