box this evening my show radio box this evening my show will be looking at the effects of the lockdowns. we'll be discussing whether what happened in 2020 and thereafter is still having an impact. today. my first guest will be doctor claire craig, and we'll be talking together about how bringing the country to a standstill had, and still is having an effect on children and young people. i'll be joined after that by former lawyer molly kingsley, who in 2020 was one of the founder members of the group us for them, which stood up for children's interests during the pandemic, and then former leader of the national education union, kevin courtney , will talk with me courtney, will talk with me about why schools had no choice but to shut their doors when they did all of that, plus plenty of discussion with my panellist , political plenty of discussion with my panellist, political commentator and friend ralph shellhammer. but first, an update on the

latest . news. latest. news. >> good evening to you. it's a minute past six here in the gb newsroom. i'm aaron armstrong, at least 74 people have been arrested in russia on the final day of an election. vladimir putin is guaranteed win putin is guaranteed to win thousands of people staged a symbolic noone against putin protest , forming long queues at protest, forming long queues at polling stations across the country . in an apparent show of country. in an apparent show of dissent, allies of the late opposition leader alexei navalny , including his wife yulia, called on voters to spoil their ballots , vote for any other ballots, vote for any other candidate or write in navalny's name . she led a demonstration name. she led a demonstration outside the russian embassy in berlin with similar scenes outside russia's embassy in london. is the third day of an election in which no genuine opposition figures have been allowed to stand. transport secretary mark harper says rishi sunak will lead the tories into the next election. senior

conservatives have been attempting to downplay claims of attempting to downplay claims of a plot to replace the prime minister with penny mordaunt. it would mean a fourth leader of the party in just five years. and mr harper says unlike laboun and mr harper says unlike labour, they're conservatives have a plan on delivering for the country . the country. >> you've got to show them by the time of the election two things we've got to show them that we've got a plan. the plan is working and it's delivering for them. and i think we can see that it for them. and i think we can see thatitis for them. and i think we can see that it is on inflation and on taxes . we've also then got to taxes. we've also then got to show them that the labour party doesn't have a plan and will be a big risk. for example, we know the labour party wants to spend £28 billion on their green plan. they've hidden the price tag now, but they don't know how to pay now, but they don't know how to pay for it. that would mean taxes going up . taxes going up. >> drivers have been dealing with more disruption on the third day of the m25 closure, amid reports of three mile long tailbacks, a five mile stretch between junctions ten and ii and surrey has been closed since

friday night so a bridge could be demolished. national highways say the works are on track and they've confirmed the planned gantry has been installed overnight. motorists, though recorded tailbacks yesterday. although we understand everything is on schedule for the road to reopen for 6 am. on monday morning and revellers are gathering in cities around the world to celebrate saint patrick's day in belfast. thousands of people have turned out in the city centre to enjoy the parade. there dancers, green flags, all the usual paraphernalia . no shortage of paraphernalia. no shortage of music and colour in dublin ehhen music and colour in dublin either, where locals usually armed with a bag that clinks usually vie with tourists along o'connell street to watch the annual parade . it's said to be annual parade. it's said to be the largest ever this year, but no one celebrates being irish quite like the americans and chicago gearing up for their traditional parades with the city's river dyed green. as always . you can get more on all always. you can get more on all of our latest stories by

scanning the qr code on your screen, or go to gb news .com/ alerts. now it's time to nail. >> we tell ourselves that children are our most precious resource and treasure. we sing songs about it. i resource and treasure. we sing songs about it . i believe that songs about it. i believe that children are our future and all that jazz . let's have a look at that jazz. let's have a look at the recent reality of life and death of children around the world. shall we.7 according death of children around the world. shall we? according to the gaza health ministry, more than 12,300 children have been killed in that open air prison since october last year . the since october last year. the children of the generation that went through the fires of hell and said, never again, are witnessing 21st century children consumed by other flames . consumed by other flames. plausible genocide. the international court of justice calls it. if taken at face value, it would mean more

children died in gaza between october last year and february this year than the combined number of all that died in all conflicts around the world in the four years from 2019 to 2022. for those who dismiss numbers presented by the gaza health ministry as unreliable , health ministry as unreliable, even fictional, the save the children charity estimates the total of dead children in gaza in the 100 days from october to the end of january . that's the end of january. that's already six weeks out of date. at 10,000. whichever figures you believe it seems reasonable to accept. we are confronted by a lot of dead children and babies piling up in the few square miles of gaza. there's all manner of footage again, much of it roundly dismissed as fake in some way of little corpses pulled from piles of rubble and wrapped in brightly coloured blankets for to transport god knows where. maybe god does know. hopefully god cares as well, because evidently not

enough of the right people do. not enough to make it stop . not enough to make it stop. children are our future. we sing. so what about all those children with no futures at all? last month, unicef estimated at least 17,000 gazan children had been orphaned by that war, or at least separated from all family and therefore left alone. 17,000 stories of heartbreak and grief . stories of heartbreak and grief. in a separate report for unicef, the plight of the children of ukraine was laid bare. two years of chaos , destruction and loss, of chaos, destruction and loss, separation from families , separation from families, disrupted schooling, disrupted, health care reports of a mental health care reports of a mental health crisis and a learning crisis. many children have fled the chaos alone, exposing them to abuse of every kind. human trafficking on an industrial scale. children robbed of childhood scars, visible and invisible human traffickers , invisible human traffickers, child traffickers, dark tales abound of more of the same

harvesting a bumper crop of orphans in gaza to . it seems to orphans in gaza to. it seems to me that present evidence makes plain that far from irreplaceable treasures, too many children are treated as disposable. closer to home, we have altogether different damage to contemplate. all parents hear and share anecdotal evidence of harms caused to children during the covid years and lockdown . the covid years and lockdown. the response to the neighbourly question how are you all doing ? question how are you all doing? was met first with a cheery fine time spent digging deeper, however, invariably revealed struggles, anxiety and real concerns about youngsters. we must now conclude that as a society, we will be dealing with the poisonous consequences of lockdown for years to come. if not forever. a consensus on the number of so—called ghost children, those who fell off the radar of schools and social services during the covid debacle and haven't been heard of since is hard to come by, but

tens of thousands is certain, and the think tank centre for social justice says 100,000. the csg tries to keep a spotlight on the poorest and most disadvantaged in society, and as early as 2021, they were warning , quote, covid 19 has wreaked havocin , quote, covid 19 has wreaked havoc in our schools and young people's life. chances have been laid waste by successive school shutdowns and interruptions to the learning. the damage caused by lockdowns could not be clearer than in the case of school attendance. the pandemic has given rise to a generation of ghost children. if we're not careful, we are creating an oliver twist generation of children exposed to significant safeguarding hazards, end quote . safeguarding hazards, end quote. over the years here at gb news, i've spoken specifically about children. my primary motivation for speaking out at all in any context from the beginning 3 or 4 years ago was as a parent, fearing for my own children, what lockdown and the rest of

the madness would do to them, how it would affect their futures by fundamentally altering the fabric of society when it came to the products pushed as vaccines, my number one focus was on making sure no model touched any of my children. and so from time to time on a saturday night, i made children the focus of what i was talking about, including asking questions about harms caused to so many by the malignancy of the lockdown policies that kept families apart, closed schools, delayed learning to speak, compromised normal emotional and psychological development, delayed the learning of social skills, left unknowable numbers isolated and dangerous domestic circumstances. but the truth is that the viewing figures for those monologues were always conspicuously lower than those on other subjects . maybe when it on other subjects. maybe when it comes to children, too many people just don't want to know, just don't want to think about it. but here we are in 2024 and a world made different. all parents know that if their

children were hooked on phones and the rest of the tech before lockdown, that time of enforced isolation only cranked up the addiction. we all hear the stories about spikes in the number of children self—harming with eating disorders, simply struggling with day to day life . struggling with day to day life. referrals for children needing mental health treatment spiked along with the rest. last year, it was reported that 1 in 5 primary and secondary age children are behind in their speech skills. their understanding of words , charity, understanding of words, charity, speech and language. uk said it was the highest number of children with speech and language challenges ever recorded . 80% of teachers said recorded. 80% of teachers said children in their classrooms were lagging behind. this is fundamental, condemning generations to underachievement, to isolation from society on account of not understanding, not being able to make themselves understood. during a recent parliamentary debate on excess deaths, conservative mp doctor caroline johnson, a consultant paediatrician as well as an mp, reported that up to

march 2023, there was an 8% increase in child deaths compared to the year before she went on to say suicide and self—harm was the main cause of death for children between the ages of ten and 17. quote getting much worse in the 10 to 14 age group. stop for a moment to take that in. of course, the vast majority of mps won't discuss excess deaths. full stop, staying away in droves from any debates on the subject. which brings me to the subject of accountability. we can see where we are now surrounded by children struggling, falling behind, falling through cracks in the floorboards, dying in greater numbers than before , greater numbers than before, self—harming, killing themselves. all of this has happened on our watch. in a time made utterly different by official policies, with which mps of all stripes remained in lockstep, almost without exception, giving their full throated support safe and effective. that worst of all mantras was a death sentence for uncounted numbers. worst of all,

it was never based on data of any sort, just baseless, pre—ordained propaganda from the start. save our nhs three weeks to flatten the curve . no jab, no to flatten the curve. no jab, no job were yet more mantras. all of them contributing to the alternative reality in which we find ourselves with children beanng find ourselves with children bearing so much of the brunt. last week, the summer time catch up tsar tasked back in 2020 with helping repair the damage done to education, talked about the circumstances that saw him resign his post and walk away in disgust, describing how government at first promised commitment and then refused to foot the bill for the necessary measures. sir kevan collins said all these things we could have done to send a signal about childhood, but we did nothing. we gave up. it was pathetic . we we gave up. it was pathetic. we must have accountability from mps, from doctors , from mps, from doctors, from scientists, from the media, from all levels of the establishment . all levels of the establishment. because if those who set in train the policies that left us where we are remain in post,

then we will have learned nothing and even worse consequences will lie ahead all the time. children were shut up at home all the time. we were told children are resilient . it told children are resilient. it was wine time friday in downing street, a maskless free for all, where access to the data plainly reassured those ruling our lives, restricting our lives that there was nothing at all to fear. we know where we are. hardly any child can report a peer that died of covid. plenty more have seen youngsters, often the fittest of the fit youngsters, dropping dead on the field of play for reasons that are never made plain, never discussed like so many of us have certainly known family members, neighbours, parents of friends succumbing to unexpected heart attacks and strokes , more heart attacks and strokes, more of those who feature in the spiking figures of the excess deaths were not supposed to notice. far less mention a generation of our youngest at crucial times in their education, know they were let down by teachers, by university lecturers , let down by the lecturers, let down by the authorities that closed their

schools and their gyms and the rest of the venues making up the fabnc rest of the venues making up the fabric of their lives that they were pressured into accepting medical interventions , even when medical interventions, even when they'd had covid and so had natural immunity from an illness that posed them no meaningful threat anyway. they could get threat anyway. so they could get into pubs and nightclubs. they look on at the adults, those who wielded power over them and find no reason to trust those so—called grown ups ever again. it's no exaggeration whatever to say the altar of save say that on the altar of save granny , children's wellbeing was granny, children's wellbeing was knowingly many of knowingly sacrificed and many of them know it. i remember seeing at the time that a society standing behind a shield made of its own children that forces children to risk their lives by being with products being injected with products that demonstrably neither that were demonstrably neither safe effective, and that, safe nor effective, and that, most all, they most important of all, they never needed is no society at all. here's the thing society sought to put children's lives on hold, to shut them indoors, to sacrifice their education, to turn a blind eye to the hobbling of the natural development of the very youngest and most vulnerable. i ask again , where

vulnerable. i ask again, where are we as a society? who are we as a species if we don't put children first at all times ? as children first at all times? as parents, our gut reaction should be to nurture and care . so why be to nurture and care. so why do we so often look the other way , while so much is inflicted way, while so much is inflicted on the innocent by those guilty of putting profit and ideology before the well—being of our youngest? i'm joined now by political commentator ralf schollhammer. thanks for joining me, ralf. thanks for having me. >> always a great pleasure to be with you. >> and for me, ralf, i am in reflective mood this evening. looking back over the long penod looking back over the long period of three four years now, can i invite you to how do you assess what happened and where we are now ? we are now? >> well, i think there are a couple of things we know now. i mean, we have known even before covid that particularly for people of an elderly age, loneliness is a major cause of

death. and know that death. and now we know that also, for young people, loneliness has significant repercussions. think you repercussions. i think you mentioned absolutely correctly, right. it's the use of right. whether it's the use of social whether it's social media, whether it's screen but i often think, screen time. but i often think, i more a symptom i think that's more a symptom than cause , right? you have than a cause, right? if you have no meaningful connections, no other meaningful connections, the you being the likelihood of you being addicted social media addicted to social media is significantly and kind significantly higher. and i kind of looked little bit the of looked up a little bit the development of civil associations the associations in britain over the last in last 100 years, and it's in steep, steep decline. so i think the media age is just the social media age is just showing us something that was going the surface for going on beneath the surface for a longer time. what happened a longer time. and what happened dunng a longer time. and what happened during mentioned a longer time. and what happened dur wonderful mentioned a longer time. and what happened durwonderful yourmentioned it's wonderful in your monologue. made so monologue. what made it so frustrating apparently there frustrating is apparently there was sincere belief that was this sincere belief that children need social children don't need social contact. that you contact. right? that you particularly most important particularly the most important stages development. 1516 stages of development. 1516 puberty, the first love, puberty, right. the first love, like the first beer in the pub with your friends like this was taken away from that generation. thatis taken away from that generation. that is , as some would say, this that is, as some would say, this is not just a crime. this is a mistake because as you correctly pointed out, you stunt the healthy development healthy social development of these young and if you

these young people. and if you look those of your viewers look for those of your viewers who are that often on social who are not that often on social media, there is also media, but there is also this wave of violence young wave of violence among young peopleyou see all these videos right? you see all these videos of young girls beating each other and kind of the young other up and kind of the young guy standing next to it, filming it their phones, but not it on their phones, but not intervening. that endless. intervening. that is endless. this sign of kind of this is a sign of kind of a social of moral social decline of, of a moral decline. i think a lot decline. what i think that a lot of we saw in recent months of what we saw in recent months and recent years were just the symptoms the other thing, symptoms and the other thing, and i'm sure have more and i'm sure we'll have more time talk about, is what time to talk about, is what bothered the in the bothered me the most in the whole thing. if the whole covid thing. if the government said government would have said this is situation, we are not is a new situation, we are not entirely sure what we are doing. there will mistakes, but we there will be mistakes, but we invite let's invite you, we want you. let's do together. but as you do this together. but as you said your monologue, what said in your monologue, what they ultimately that they they ultimately did is that they made for others, that they made rules for others, that they themselves and pick themselves broke and let's pick this up. >> let's pick this so much >> let's pick this up. so much more discussed. after the more to be discussed. after the break, by break, i'll be joined by consultant pathologist doctor claire about the claire craig to talk about the effects the pandemic, effects of the pandemic, lockdowns, they did to lockdowns, what they did to children young people. children and young people. you are neil oliver are watching the neil oliver show news. don't go show on gb news. don't go

anywhere.

welcome back once more to the neil oliver show. my first guest this evening is consultant pathologist doctor claire craig, who is the chair of heart, a group of doctors who came together over shared concerns about policy and guidance. recommendations relating to the covid 19 pandemic. so called claire joins me now. thank you for being here, claire. thank you for having me, as as i did earlier with ralph reflecting on all that's happened in the last four years, what is your assessment specifically in relation to what it has collectively done to children and youngsters ? and youngsters? >> yeah, i think that is a really cool question. and it's, when i think, what's important

to understand is that we can reflect back now and we can talk endlessly about the harms that it was caused. and a lot of people are now prepared to talk about the harms that it caused. but the reality is that we knew this beforehand. we knew even more after the first lockdown because of it. because we had evidence of it. and yet we were pushed and yet still we were pushed into lockdowns thereafter into more lockdowns thereafter when the harm was well and truly established , i got and get the established, i got and get the feeling that children were always regarded as somehow invulnerable, that in some way it wasn't going to matter what what was done to children, that they uniquely would absorb everything that was thrown at them and bounce back untouched . them and bounce back untouched. oh, absolutely. and if you remember back, people kept repeating the phrase that children are resilient . the children are resilient. the w.h.o. children are resilient. the who. were the one of the ones w.h.o. were the one of the ones that are using that phrase, but it was repeated endlessly, as if , as you say, as if, you know,

they were somehow not more vulnerable, which they are, but less so. and there was research and people writing about it as if they were. it was a children's fault. if they weren't resilient, they should toughen up . but, you know, toughen up. but, you know, nobody would say that about adults who were in adults who who were in a situation that was unpleasant. and, children aren't resilient. not all children. and the children that suffered the most are the ones that already had all sorts of, you know, problems in terms of kind of home support or other issues , which meant or other issues, which meant that they were never going to be resilient. and this has impacted them massively. >> the very idea that that repeated statement about resilience seemed to be taken as justification for therefore , justification for therefore, testing children to breaking point just because they're resilient doesn't mean you you push them to the point where they can take no more. >> well, yeah, ridiculous isn't it? >> and the reality is that all that that phrase really means is children keep growing. you know , children keep growing. you know, they'll still turn into adults.

well, yeah, sure, they'll still turn into adults, but, you know, whereas teachers can step away and have a year off their work trajectory and it has no consequence when they step back in, where they were. the in, they where they were. the same true for children. same is not true for children. you every of you know, every year of a child's development and child's development matters. and you can't skip them and you can't pretend they don't . can't pretend they don't. >> ralph i was it seemed obvious to me that you know, where for an 80 year old, one year of lockdown was, well, an 80th of their life, a year of lockdown for a two year old is half a lifetime . and so for that lifetime. and so for that reason, if for no other , what reason, if for no other, what was done to children ought not to have happened because of the scale of it in the context of their own existences as well. >> i think another cause is, i mean, we have created a culture that is, i would argue, inherently hostile to children. i mean, if you look at the conversation around it, children are a burden like you can maybe afford children, but most people shouldn't. then course, shouldn't. then of course, we have the entire malthusian movement the

movement that says that the entire race plague entire human race is a plague on the every child is the planet, and every child is basically sin, and it kind of, basically a sin, and it kind of, you know, over into the you know, bleeds over into the quasi religious. you know, bleeds over into the quasi religious . and think quasi religious. and i think that also during the that was also shown during the dunng that was also shown during the during pandemic that, in during the pandemic that, in many right. and even many ways, right. and even before pandemic, we don't before the pandemic, we don't really invest in the in the development, in the education and the social development of our children. i mean, the jesuits had saying, you know, jesuits had a saying, you know, give me the boy and i'll show you the but nowadays, you the man. but nowadays, apparently we don't care about that which find is that at all, which i find is very, very frustrating. >> would you say? >> clare, what would you say? what do you say to those who make the argument that , well, make the argument that, well, for example, schools had no options, they were options, that they were just kind of handed fait accompli kind of handed a fait accompli and therefore everything and that therefore everything that happened to children in the context of education was out of their hands somehow, well, i mean, there's so much with mean, there's so much wrong with that, least fact that that, not least the fact that the teachers unions were integral in pushing for lockdowns politically, particularly the one in january 2021. so if you remember, the schools actually reopened for a day, and the union just

day, and then the union just effectively called an illegal strike because they were getting their members to submit paperwork that they had written a template for, to say that the working environment wasn't safe, and persuading them not to return work . and that sort of return work. and that sort of pushed the government into saying, well, let's have another lockdown. but in reality, schools provide way more than just, you know, the transfer of knowledge. schools are there for lots of reasons within a society , including safeguarding children, including feeding some of the children, including the social development of the children amongst their peers, but also including the relations shapps with their teachers. and it's i find it extraordinary that that teaching leaders have just completely abandoned the importance of that at a time when ai is knocking on the door saying , well, we can do transfer saying, well, we can do transfer of knowledge we don't need just that you need a relationship with a teacher to motivate you to want to learn. and that's what was taken away from them,

among other things. >> amongst many things that troubled me is the way in which there's a whole group who are being described as the covid kids or the or the covid cohort, as though there's already some sort of admission that there's a, there's a slice of a population that are going to carry covid around their necks like an albatross for the rest of their lives . oh, you're one of their lives. oh, you're one of their lives. oh, you're one of their lives. oh, you're one of the covid lot. >> yeah. i think that that's really true. and one of the things i found, i mean, i was a bit nervous about coming on here because i'm a data person, and some of this feels a little bit more emotive. so i had a kind of testing the water, reading around getting other around it, getting other people's and one of people's opinions. and one of the really struck me the things that really struck me is that are talking about the things that really struck me is tiimmaturityare talking about the things that really struck me is tiimmaturity of talking about the things that really struck me is tiimmaturity of particular»out the immaturity of particular cohorts, they're talking the immaturity of particular cohortit they're talking the immaturity of particular cohortit andthey're talking the immaturity of particular cohortit and applying lking the immaturity of particular cohortit and applying iting the immaturity of particular cohortit and applying it toi about it and applying it to primary school children, secondary school children, sixth formers, at university. formers, people at university. so you know that that effect of missing on a year or two of missing out on a year or two of maturation has its impact throughout that whole, you know, progress through education.

>> am i right in thinking as well that the covid inquiry so called for what it's worth, wasn't even going to look at the effect on children? >> that's right. actually took a decision. of reference. decision. terms of reference. they one mention they didn't include one mention of word child or children. of the word child or children. >> that say to you, >> what does that say to you, ralph? the very body tasked with considering what had happened and might happen in the and what might happen in the future, decided . but we don't future, decided. but we don't need about what need to think about what happened children. happened to children. >> even worse >> i think it's even worse because the precise development that describe, talk that you describe, you talk about britain, but the about great britain, but the same happening austria and same is happening in austria and germany right? they germany as well, right? they wanted do an and now wanted to do an inquiry and now they back back and they pushed it back and back and back probably back and back. it's probably never to happen. germany, back and back. it's probably nev same to happen. germany, back and back. it's probably nev same thing.1appen. germany, back and back. it's probably nev same thing. it's»en. germany, back and back. it's probably nev same thing. it's the germany, back and back. it's probably nev same thing. it's the issueany, the same thing. it's the issue is, is ignored. and i'm sure we're going to talk about this more because the government or the cannot admit the state simply cannot admit that made a mistake. this that they made a mistake. this is fascinates most. that they made a mistake. this is justiscinates most. that they made a mistake. this is just cannots most. that they made a mistake. this is just cannot say, most. that they made a mistake. this is just cannot say, not st. they just cannot say, i'm not even for an apology. i even asking for an apology. i think in denmark there was one newspaper actually newspaper we actually apologised, other that, apologised, but other than that, neither german nor the neither the german nor the austrian or the british government. nobody had the guts to mistakes. we are to say we made mistakes. we are sorry. that's a small

sorry. and that's a small gesture, but i think it would mean quite, a lot to many mean quite, quite a lot to many people. >> absolutely. and we need to hear from the teacher. hear it from the teacher. agreed? why aren't agreed? yes. well, why aren't the saying now? the teachers saying this now? they're impacts they're seeing the impacts every day not saying it day and they're not saying it and defending their and they're not defending their profession. not just profession. so not just refreshing, think would refreshing, but i think it would be so meaningful and so impressive the for the impressive for the for the general figures in general population if figures in authority would come and authority would come forward and say, . say, we got that wrong. >> you that's not a cause >> you know, that's not a cause for people being shamed and dnven for people being shamed and driven know , outer driven into, you know, outer darkness. population would driven into, you know, outer darknea;. population would driven into, you know, outer darknea sigh population would driven into, you know, outer darknea sigh ofopulation would driven into, you know, outer darknea sigh of relief ion would driven into, you know, outer darknea sigh of relief and nould driven into, you know, outer darknea sigh of relief and say,j heave a sigh of relief and say, finally, the finally, somebody with the backbone some of this on backbone to take some of this on their shoulders. >> absolutely. and of course, as soon as while that's not happened, there's the constant feeling of threat that it might happen again. and that that affects the children. i mean, you know, the children are not they're not convinced that they're not convinced that they're out. this will not happen again. >> thank you. thank you, doctor claire craig, another break is upon us already, after which i'll be joined by one of the founders of the group. as for them, molly kingsley, to talk from a personal point of view

about how the lockdowns had an impact her own children. as impact on her own children. as well as everyone you're well as everyone else's. you're watching the neil oliver show on gb away

welcome back to the neil oliver show. my next guest this evening, molly kingsley, had young children of her own during the pandemic and ended up so concerned about the impact of lockdowns, amongst other things, were young people . she were having on young people. she formed us for them, formed the group us for them, which for schools to which campaigned for schools to reopen. molly joins me now . reopen. and molly joins me now. molly, do you have any confidence that the last four years have taught us anything ? years have taught us anything? by years have taught us anything? by which i mean, do you think if the next one happens, which we're told it will, that things will be different? >> i have no confidence and in fact, well, okay, that fact, i think, well, okay, that might be a bit of an

oversimplification. i think we have learnt on school closures. so obviously, as you said, you know, where i came into this, i guess, was a campaign to get schools open. i really, really hope we will never close schools again. and i have some confidence that will be the case at least. perhaps save, you know, you can imagine a situation that is so extreme and actually where children are genuinely so threatened that it is the right thing to close schools. we've always said that is imaginable. schools. we've always said that is imaginable . i don't think it is imaginable. i don't think it was the situation we found ourselves in in 2020. i do have some confidence schools won't be closed again. however, i don't have any confidence that in a similar situation where you have, you know, millions of adults, health seen to be threatened , children perhaps threatened, children perhaps threatened, children perhaps threaten less. so i have no confidence that we wouldn't make the same decision to prioritise effectively adult health and wellbeing and safety ism over children . children. >> no i don't now you actually put under my nose , a piece, put under my nose, a piece, relating to sir kevan collins,

who was the so—called catch up tsar , who the government are tsar, who the government are tasked with repairing the damage . but he he walked away from that position because the government was as as he found out, to his horror, were not going to properly fund it. and there was a line that really struck me. all these things we could have done to send a signal about childhood, but we did nothing . we gave up. it was nothing. we gave up. it was pathetic . that's strong. pathetic. that's strong. >> i mean, it makes me so upset, actually, neil, because he's absolutely right. of course he is. but there were people, you know, myself and colleagues included anne longfield, the children's commissioner at the time, a handful of politicians. there were people who were screaming so loud about this for so very many years, and no one listened to us. and, you know, to hear kevin was one of those people i know. you know, he did no doubt his utmost to get this

recovery package pushed through. i think one of the things that kevin talks about, which i find very powerful and again, myself and others for them, colleagues were saying at time, this were saying at the time, is this whole is whole language of recovery is very uncomfortable. thought very uncomfortable. the thought that close children's that you could close children's lives close their schools, lives down, close their schools, take away them. take everything away from them. somehow able to recover somehow you'd be able to recover them. and i think, you know, people like liz cole and i on my us for them co—founders were saying back in 2021, saying right back in 2020, 2021, like , shouldn't using this like, we shouldn't be using this language it gives language because it gives a false of security that we false sense of security that we can rectify what we're doing. and unfortunately, we kept on can rectify what we're doing. and uthat unately, we kept on can rectify what we're doing. and uthat language.3 kept on can rectify what we're doing. and uthat language. we pt on can rectify what we're doing. and uthat language. we kept on, using that language. we kept on, i being gaslit by i believe being gaslit by government. you know, we had people like gavin williamson telling us it would be the biggest of energy and biggest injection of energy and cash. country seen since cash. the country had seen since 1945 repair the damage to 1945 to repair the damage to schools. and in the end, that proved absolutely hollow . proved absolutely hollow. >> so, so am i right in thinking that that what you mean by that is that even if they had embarked upon a marshall plan for education and children, it was still the wrong idea that

you could inflict hurt and then fix it. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> i mean, we shouldn't be thinking of children as, you know, beings, that it is okay to harm if we can fix them afterwards. that is, any parent would take issue with that. imagine if i said that about your children. imagine if someone said it about mine. i would, you know , get very angry. would, you know, get very angry. >> and what some of the up to >> and what is some of the up to date data telling us now? i mean to get you've you've always been across numbers. is it across the numbers. what is it saying three, four years later that we can understand about the consequences? >> yeah. so look i'm going to give you a few headline figures and then i'm going to caveat it. but let me just give you a feel first. and one of the issues here is there is so much data. it is almost hard to know where to begin, some of the most shocking data, i think, is around what we've done to the school so we still have, school system. so we still have, you years after you know, four years after the original school closures, four years pretty much. or years this week, pretty much. or coming it, we now have coming up to it, we now have 1 in 10 pupils who are persistently absent from school. that increase on

that is a marked increase on numbers before the pandemic. and you knows if that will you know, who knows if that will ever recover . it isn't so far, 1 ever recover. it isn't so far, 1 in 5 children, so almost 2 million children across the country are not meeting speech and language milestones. i think that's an incredibly grim figure, speaks particularly to younger children. but of course , younger children. but of course, that kind of deficit sticks with children through their whole lives . and i think the other, lives. and i think the other, you know, awful, awful figure is we have 200 children a year now who are committing suicide. that's for kids, for school, kids a week committing suicide . kids a week committing suicide. that's horrific. the caveat to that, however, neil, is that a lot of these issues did exist before the pandemic. so, you know, if you take a slightly longer view and look at the figures, certainly from 2000, perhaps even 2020 ten, you will see that the rates of decline in children's physical and particularly mental well—being were already there. so this trajectory in some ways has got worse , but probably maybe not worse, but probably maybe not caused by the pandemic itself . caused by the pandemic itself. >> i mentioned this with with

doctor claire craig as well, but this, this idea that or the government were consistently saying that, well , we can't help saying that, well, we can't help this. we're in a situation of such danger, such significance that, well, the children are just going to have to take this and then we can move on. how do you respond to that, that feeling that in a strange way, the bucks seem to stop at children, which seemed like the inversion of where the pyramid of responsibility ought to have been absolutely inversion. >> i mean, you know, it's something talk about a lot, something we talk about a lot, actually, in our first the actually, in our first book, the children's inquiry, this idea that inverted the that we have inverted the natural the natural natural order, the natural morality adults morality of things, adults are meant children, meant to protect children, you know, specific point, know, as to the specific point, we had no choice. of course they had a choice. it was a policy choice. and they knew and we knew from april that covid knew from april 2020 that covid was a very discriminatory virus. you know, that is the sad reality. it did not hugely impact the vast majority of children. it was never going to.

it was very dangerous for some adults. i think that is now a given. we were never told that at the time, were we? and it might comfort senior policy makers to tell themselves, just as told us at the time, as they told us at the time, there was no choice, but there was a choice. and you know what i would say, neil? i would say that even work covid a serious risk to children. you would have to take action through the lens of what was needed to protect the children that may have meant closing. some schools may not have know, there a way have done. you know, there a way of protecting children that didn't inflict such grotesque, really sort of pain on them . really sort of pain on them. clearly, that's what we should have aspired to do as a society, and that just never happened. >> it just never happened. you're right, more ali is going to stay with me through the break after , when we'll be break and after, when we'll be joined by kevin courtney, who was general secretary of the was the general secretary of the national education union at the time pandemic. and he time of the pandemic. and he will schools will argue, i think, why schools had to shut their had no choice but to shut their doors . you're watching neil doors. you're watching neil oliver news don't go away.

welcome back to the neil oliver show. now, my next guest this evening is kevin courtney, who was joint general secretary of the national education union at the national education union at the time the pandemic. he the time of the pandemic. he says no choice says schools had no choice but to close as the virus was rife and it would have been unsafe to keep them open. kevin joins me now. you for joining keep them open. kevin joins me now. you forjoining us. now. thank you for joining us. >> pleased to be here. >> pleased to be here. >> the teachers unions were amongst the most strident, weren't they, in their calls for the schools to close, even when other voices said they should open. how do you look back on that now? >> well, you know, you make decisions in the light of the information you've got, the science that you understand at the time. so i look back on it and i think that we made the right calls. i do need to say

the schools were never closed , the schools were never closed, completely closed because they were always to key worker were always open to key worker children children children and vulnerable children at there were at every period. but there were long periods of closure. it was always government that closed them, but we were advocating at some those points for that some of those points for that partial closure. >> why so determined? you know, when there were, you say, the science and there were other voices, including the government saying the schools, you know, should open generally and yet the were the teachers unions were determined otherwise. >> , for example, in >> i mean, for example, in january 2021, were calling january 2021, we were calling for schools to close. boris johnson on a sunday night, said the schools were open. we were saying they should close the next day. he changed his mind and the schools should and said the schools should close. that. i think close. he did that. i think because of the evidence from sage, we looked at the sage minutes. that's where we were getting our position from. and sage was saying if the sage was saying that if the schools were fully open, that there was no way the r rate that we used to talk about all the time, we forgot what it means. but the r rate would be above one.the but the r rate would be above

one. the virus would be exponentially growing. now it wasn't. this is difficult to wasn't. and this is difficult to say. it wasn't. the children were particularly at risk. by january 21st. we knew that the risks went up with age and with, you know, if you had diabetes, you know, if you had diabetes, you were at risk, etc. so sage was saying the schools had to be closed to protect other people, to protect the vulnerable parents, the vulnerable grandparents the children in grandparents of the children in schools, the vulnerable parents and vulnerable grandparents of the teachers the schools. and the teachers in the schools. and we sage right. so we thought sage were right. so we thought sage were right. so we were with the bulk of we were going with the bulk of scientific thought on the matter. m atter. >> matter. >> molly, how do you feel listening to that? you know, you were all about opening the schools, reopening the schools, and were looking at the same and you were looking at the same data listening to what data and listening to what sage was saying. how you respond was saying. how do you respond to kevin's saying? to what kevin's saying? >> mean, i do have >> look, i mean, i do have considerable sympathy, actually, for and i do understand that at >> and i do understand that at the there was a real the time there was a real perception that adults, perhaps all of perhaps a subset, all of them, perhaps a subset, were in real danger. i think there are a few things i'd say

to that. i think it seems that the risk from covid, many of us might accept now that that was rather overinflated. i don't blame the teaching unions for that. i've put the blame of that squarely at the door of government. but i think at the same time, the harms of school closures were either downplayed or perhaps not taken into account in the way they could have been. so you talk a lot about the sage papers and the r rate, and we heard so much about that. all those charts. it's very deliberate. you know, propagandised fear environment that we were to live that we all were asked to live unden that we all were asked to live under. we never heard really the equivalent about the other side of the equation, the harms to children. and i don't just mean learning loss. mean what learning loss. i mean what happens children when you happens to children when you shut down childhood asking shut down childhood often asking them be in environment which them to be in environment which we sadly now know are unsafe? what happens to children when you put them in front of screens when you their whole lives when you move their whole lives to and i think had we to phones? and i think had we maybe balanced that, we may have come to different conclusion. come to a different conclusion. >> listening to that and

>> kevin, listening to that and how do feel now? you how how do you feel now? you know, i'm in a kind of reflective mood this evening. and looking back across all of the years, what do you feel about what you must have seen has been distilled about long term, possibly permanent harm caused to the to the to the youngest. >> i mean, i've got two reactions to what molly has just said. first, to question molly about whether she really thinks that covid wasn't a risk. i mean, do you mean now that we've got the vaccination, it's not a risk because we had two colleagues in my work who died of covid before vaccines, before vaccination , they died of it. vaccination, they died of it. and they were they were not of an advanced stage, but they did have other conditions and they died of it. it is a serious illness, but i absolutely agree that closing schools does have huge consequences . rs. and huge consequences. rs. and they're not good consequences. and, you know, and it's, if you're a disadvantaged child ,

you're a disadvantaged child, the consequences are worse. i mean, if you're at home and you've got a nice private garden and you've got your own bedroom and you've got your own bedroom and you've got your own ipad, then very different to then that's very different to being fifth flat. and being in a fifth floor flat. and no whatsoever. i think the no space whatsoever. i think the consequences been bad for consequences have been bad for children, and our government should been doing more to should have been doing more to make sure the school closures should be as short as possible. our school closures were longer than many other countries during the pandemic. i spoke to my opposite number in the danish teacher union. they had some school closures, but they were shorter. but the reason they were shorter , and we talked this were shorter, and we talked this through for some time with my colleague mary bousted, with with colleague class with our colleague there class sizes were smaller, their space standards were better. they had better ventilation in their classrooms. so it was more possible to have the school open without the virus spreading . but without the virus spreading. but we were looking at the ons statistics, which showed that when the schools were open, the level of covid amongst the children was going up week by week by when the schools

week by week. when the schools closed, started to again closed, it started to fall again . is the hard . and like, this is the hard thing. wasn't to protect the thing. it wasn't to protect the children, was to protect children, it was to protect their parents, their vulnerable brother and sister, their vulnerable grandparents, you know, and we now owe it to those kids. the government should have been investing far more in recovery and that's not just education recovery. it's social recovery for those children. >> so look, i mean, absolutely agree with you on the last point. i think in terms of your question about, you know, how dangerous a virus was, i would say sad and probably quite say the sad and probably quite uncomfortable here is uncomfortable reality here is that for vast majority of that for the vast majority of healthy people, it was not a serious threat . that is not to serious threat. that is not to say there are not many adults for whom it was a very serious threat, but what we did is we asked healthy young people, including children, all of them, to bear a burden that i would say was never theirs to bear. we asked them to overcompensate for the ill health of the adult population , and i think that population, and i think that morally is wrong. >> kevin, is there regret ? is

>> kevin, is there regret? is there regret in the industry? and i would always have preferred to think of teaching as amongst those professions. that's a calling, as well as a pastoral care you would expect from the people who go into that profession and, and you get any sense of there being a commitment that if something similar happens again , then that similar happens again, then that the teachers and the teachers unions would stand up to make sure that the mistakes made in the past are not repeated or not. >> i mean, there's all sorts of things that i regret about about about that period. but, i regret that that we couldn't get the government to listen to us. there were times when we were advocating for, i mean, we thought that, when it came to a choice, do you open pubs or schools ? they opened pubs. they schools? they opened pubs. they did eat out to help out. they kept schools. being it wasn't that that precise time. but if there was a choice then i'd be in favour of schools being open,

other things being closed to keep the r rate below one, i would. we were trying to get the government to invest in an education plan b during the pandemic, to have spaces pandemic, to have more spaces with children and other and adults with them safe adults. so you could have more spaces open. the rate would be a bit lower. we were advocating, for example, there were a number of sixth form colleges that managed to make a very effective , if not make a very effective, if not perfect by any means, but children were in one week at home the next, and half the class was in half. the class was at home, half of them were learning online, half of them were in and by. by doing that situation, they managed to. their rate didn't go up in their their rate of covid growth seemed be lower in their seemed to be lower in their institutions. i think we need to look at all those mechanisms because no teacher would want schools to be closed. you want to find the ways around it. >> i, i feel i mean, i have to i'm going i'm going to run i'm going to i'm going to run out of but i just feel

out of time. but i just feel that we're looking back a that we're looking back on a national tragedy, national national tragedy, a national scandal and national disgrace scandal and a national disgrace that children, the youngest who should be everything should be done to protect them. and yet they were made to bear the brunt of the hurt. they took the biggest hit. and i think as a society, we should look back on that and find that inexcusable. but i'm going to i've run at a time on that. i've run at a time on the show. thank you to all my guests this evening. a fair and open i think there. i open debate, i think there. i think you agree you're think you would agree you're watching oliver show on watching the neil oliver show on gb if you're watching on gb news. if you're watching on television, stay for free television, stay tuned for free speech nation. that's next. but you catch up with more of you can catch up with more of this online now featuring this show online now featuring more on the ongoing impact of covid restrictions with my coming up guests bev turner, nigel nelson and doctor ralph schollhammer

i >> -- >>a >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb news . news. >> hello there! welcome to your latest gb news. weather forecast on the met office. well, for the week ahead is remaining changeable across the country, but for the most part it's going to be fairly mild . so as we end to be fairly mild. so as we end this weekend, still got low pressure in charge. this weather front here will bring another spell rain as we go through spell of rain as we go through the course of night ahead of the course of the night ahead of it. does turn largely dry and it. it does turn largely dry and clear, especially across parts of and wales , and mist of england and wales, and mist and fog forming a few spots and fog forming in a few spots and fog forming in a few spots and behind. it does then turn and in behind. it does then turn and in behind. it does then turn a bit drier and clearer for the end the night across northern end of the night across northern ireland. for all of is ireland. but for all of us is going to be a mild night, temperatures not falling much lower 5 lower than around 5 to 7 degrees. so we do start the day off with some sunshine across

eastern parts of the midlands , eastern parts of the midlands, east anglia, lincolnshire away. but the cloud west will but the cloud further west will spread its way that a little bit further eastwards. rain on further eastwards. any rain on it out, so not it will slowly peter out, so not actually a lot arriving actually a lot of rain arriving into east anglia and then behind it it does turn drier and brighter. some good spells of sunshine developing before then. the next rain arrives in the next band of rain arrives in the west. mild temperatures potentially reaching 17 degrees in the south—east tuesday. a rather grey and damp start. plenty of spots of rain around. as the day goes on we will see some bright spells across parts of northern ireland, scotland, maybe northern england to and still remain in a fairly mild wednesday . thursday stays fairly wednesday. thursday stays fairly changeable, quite wet, potentially on wednesday, but all the time temperatures for all the time temperatures for all of us in double figures . all of us in double figures. >> that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers sponsors of weather on

gb news. >> 2024 a battleground year. >> 2024 a battleground year. >> the year the nation decides . >> the year the nation decides. >> the year the nation decides. >> as the parties gear up their campaigns for the next general election. >> who will be left standing when the british people make one of the biggest decisions of their lives ? who will rise and their lives? who will rise and who will fall? >> let's find out together for every moment. >> the the lows, the >> the highs, the lows, the twists and turns. >> we'll be with you for every step of this journey in 2024. >> gb news is britain's election . channel. >> very good evening to you. at 7:00, i'm aaron armstrong in the gb newsroom. thousands of russians have been protesting against putin on the against vladimir putin on the final day of a presidential election. he is certain to win long queues formed at polling

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