catherine and praised their and catherine and praised their dignity as they both undergo treatment for cancer . well, dignity as they both undergo treatment for cancer. well, in his easter message, the prime minister paid tribute to the work of churches and christian communities across the country . communities across the country. >> happy easter everyone! this weekend, as people come together to celebrate and reflect on the message at the heart of the easter festival, i want to pay tribute to the incredible work of christians in this country. the churches, charities, volunteers and fundraisers who live the christian values of compassion, charity and self—sacrifice , supporting those self—sacrifice, supporting those in need and demonstrating what it means to love thy neighbour. >> thousands of people turned out to see pope francis preside over easter mass at the vatican. the pontiff delivered his urbi et orbi blessing from the balcony of saint peter's basilica. pope francis, who's been dealing with health problems in recent weeks, used his address to renew his call for an immediate ceasefire in gaza, along with the release of all israeli hostages . meanwhile,

all israeli hostages. meanwhile, israel's prime minister says more than 200 gunmen have been killed by his country's forces at a hospital in northern gaza. another hospital further south was also targeted by an airstrike . several tents on the airstrike. several tents on the grounds of the al shifa were hit , reportedly killing four people and injuring others, including journalists. the israeli military says it was focusing on a terrorist command centre. the precise hit designed to minimise civilian casualties. benjamin netanyahu also declared there would be no victory over hamas without a rafah operation . without a rafah operation. almost 400 migrants crossed the engush almost 400 migrants crossed the english channel today as weather conditions continue to deteriorate over both days. this weekend , border force officials weekend, border force officials intercepted 16 small boats carrying 735 people. it takes the total number of those who've arrived illegally to more than 5400 this year, a third higher

than the figure recorded this time last year. for the latest stories, you can sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen, go to gb code on your screen, or go to gb news. alerts . news. common alerts. >> tomorrow is april fool's day, and that means scotland's new hate crime law comes into effect. should we be worried.7 let's find out. this is free speech nation . welcome to free speech nation. welcome to free speech nation. welcome to free speech nation. welcome to free speech nation with me , andrew speech nation with me, andrew doyle. this is the show where we take a look at culture, current affairs and politics. and of course, we'll have the latest from those lovable culture warriors. don't the warriors. and don't worry, the easter not easter holidays have not deterred them from trying to cancel up on the cancel things. coming up on the show , it's just a day show tonight, it's just a day until introduction new until the introduction of new hate in scotland . i'm hate crime laws in scotland. i'm going to discussing the going to be discussing the implications speech implications for free speech with guests. msp with a series of guests. msp murdo be them. murdo fraser will be among them. a tweet he sent criticising the

scottish government's transgender policy was logged by police as a hate incident . transgender policy was logged by police as a hate incident. but in another hugely significant case, whistleblower julian assange's extradition to the us has been placed on hold for now. we're going to be talking about that with julian assange's brother , the film producer brother, the film producer gabriel shipton, and of course, myself and my fantastic panel will be answering questions from our audience . and our lovely studio audience. and my comedian guests this evening are wetton and bruce are cressida wetton and bruce devlin. welcome to the show. >> both of you. hello. >> both of you. hello. >> i hope you're in a chirpy mood. bruce >> i'm always in a chirpy mood. >> i'm always in a chirpy mood. >> sometimes you can be quite brusque, do you think? >> well , every now brusque, do you think? >> well, every now and then, you know, not criticism. no. know, it's not a criticism. no. it we'd it was funny because we'd gone out did, out after the last one. we did, and from the audience and a woman from the audience came and she went, oh, came with us and she went, oh, i'm glad i spoke you i'm so glad i spoke to you because really me. because you really scare me. >> we you >> wow. oh, there we go. you inspire bruce. don't >> wow. oh, there we go. you inspir how bruce. don't >> wow. oh, there we go. you inspir how you uce. don't >> wow. oh, there we go. you inspir how you do. don't >> wow. oh, there we go. you inspirhow you do. but on't >> wow. oh, there we go. you inspirhow you do. but you do know how you do it, but you do it. so it's nice that you guys are going out audience are going out with audience members after the show. >> mean, i don't >> it is? yeah. i mean, i don't remember it. no remember all of it. no >> were doing you've >> well, you were doing you've missed the home.

missed a stop on the train home. >> oh, that right ? >> oh, is that right? >> oh, is that right? >> that. >> that. >> i can't keep up >> look, i can't keep up with him, otherwise you him, otherwise i'd be fine. you were doing the aftershocks. >> sell that? no. >> do they still sell that? no. that am, doesn't that shows how old i am, doesn't it? i it? okay anyway, let's get. i definitely drink that definitely didn't drink that stuff. questions definitely didn't drink that stuff. audience. questions definitely didn't drink that stuff. audience. qourtions definitely didn't drink that stuff. audience. qour first from the audience. so our first question from jill. hi, question comes from jill. hi, jill . jill. >> hello there, my question actually to your actually relates to your introduction. april fool's day sees the intro of the snp legislation on hate crime , and legislation on hate crime, and people like jk rowling have been advised to delete their tweets for fear of what might happen, so i'm just wondering if, for fear of what might happen, so i'm just wondering if , as so i'm just wondering if, as comedians, what do you think the implications of this are for comedy? >> it's interesting you mentioned that, jo, because there was a lawyer online specifically wrote to jk rowling saying, delete your saying, you better delete your tweets because come april the 1st, you'll be breaking the law. do you think, jill, that she will do that, that she'll go along that? what you along with that? and what do you think? >> definitely not. i looked back through her twitter stream and shewell, that's it, it? >> well, that's it, isn't it? people are going to have to, i

think, take a bit a stand on think, take a bit of a stand on this and it's a tricky one this one. and it's a tricky one because never advise because i would never advise people but people to break the law. but free sacrosanct. free speech is too sacrosanct. i think, society . think, for a liberal society. what do you make of this? do you think be in think comedy is going to be in trouble ? trouble? >> i emil wu- wu— >> well, i mean, it could be, couldn't that's the point. couldn't it? that's the point. we're definitely safe, we're no longer definitely safe, which is a worry. if you which is a worry. and if you can't sure if you're breaking can't be sure if you're breaking the or that's a the law or not, that's not a good place start. although good place to start. although i feel people rowling feel like people like jk rowling are in the are kind of the canary in the coal mine, but stronger than that. canary, great big that. not a canary, a great big scary you know, she's big scary hawk. you know, she's big enough to. >> yeah, pretty tough. but >> yeah, she's pretty tough. but yeah. know, it does yeah. so but you know, it does worry you know, worry me because, you know, i saw think it saw an activist on i think it was about this and was stv talking about this and i was stv talking about this and i was her say , yeah, was expecting her to say, yeah, okay. the police shouldn't investigate you know. investigate comedians, you know. but . she but she didn't say that. she said, well, it's important that the understand the the police understand the difference between just a joke that's near knuckle that's a bit near the knuckle and hateful. it's and a joke that's hateful. it's like, i don't want the police making that judgement. they've got they're not comedy critics. >> no, they haven't done >> no, they haven't even done their minutes the their first five minutes on the open circuit. would they? open mic circuit. would they? no, they mean, no, but seriously, they i mean, why, it's a repeat of lenny bruce, want bruce, isn't it? i do not want a policeman my jokes to a

policeman reading my jokes to a judge absolutely not. policeman reading my jokes to a jud and absolutely not. policeman reading my jokes to a jud and this absolutely not. policeman reading my jokes to a jud and this isabsolutely not. policeman reading my jokes to a jud and this isabscthing, not. policeman reading my jokes to a jud and this isabscthing, bruce. >> and this is the thing, bruce. i you as the i mean, you know, you as the representative scotland representative of scotland tonight you called tonight and the man you called me, monster last week. me, the hate monster last week. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> well, okay, well, we can call you monster if like >> well, okay, well, we can call y for monster if like >> well, okay, well, we can call yfor those monster if like >> well, okay, well, we can call yfor those who>nster if like >> well, okay, well, we can call yfor those who don't if like >> well, okay, well, we can call yfor those who don't know, like >> well, okay, well, we can call yfor those who don't know, this . for those who don't know, this is the police is because the scottish police created of puppet hate created a sort of puppet hate monster when they put created a sort of puppet hate mvideor when they put created a sort of puppet hate mvideo out when they put created a sort of puppet hate mvideo out for when they put created a sort of puppet hate mvideo out for it. when they put created a sort of puppet hate mvideo out for it. it'san they put created a sort of puppet hate mvideo out for it. it's quite y put a video out for it. it's quite embarrassing, isn't it. but anyway, are monster anyway, you are the hate monster tonight. and tell me these the leaked materials that came out, it was the front cover of the herald this week, and they were talking about police talking about how police are being trained to deal with comedians tell offensive comedians who tell offensive jokes. what does that worry you? >> yeah, of course it worries you because you have people who may not like you personally . may not like you personally. yes. and are just they have a series of trigger words and it's to do with their interpretation of whatever. so i have emailed a lot of venues i play saying, i really hope as of april the first, every performance is filmed. yes, because i've been in a position before where i've had justify my act, with the had to justify my act, with the law , and because someone else

law, and because someone else has reported it. >> the worst thing, isn't it, when someone's complaining about an act and read the an act and they read out the lines, it makes lines, you said, yeah, it makes it sound awful because they have no no comic ability, no timing, no comic ability, and it's not my or any of that. >> well, the context is. yeah, absolutely . but i >> well, the context is. yeah, absolutely. but i just >> well, the context is. yeah, absolutely . but i just do absolutely. but i just think, do the really have more the police really not have more to do? >> they have loads to do. they have loads to mean, but have loads to do. i mean, but it's interesting because later in the show i'm going be in the show i'm going to be speaking to dankula speaking to count dankula marcus meechan,who actually youtuber who actually has a criminal joke in criminal record for a joke in scotland for a joke video that he put out. and they did take him to court and he was found guilty spite of fact guilty in spite of the fact there no evidence any far there was no evidence of any far right that should right sympathies. so that should worry us because it's already happening. what i'm saying is, it's it happen to it's not that. will it happen to comedians? and comedians? it already has. and it's very possible that it could happen again. it's interesting what bruce says about we need to film everything, make sure that everything but, everything is out there. but, you sometimes a you know, sometimes isn't in a comedy you're stuff comedy club. you're trying stuff out. wrong. you out. it could go wrong. you could make a mistake. >> to be able to >> you've got to be able to go beyond line to find out beyond the line to find out where and where the line is. and i think when you into comedy

when you come into a comedy club, i mean, one of the reasons we have seven olds we don't have seven year olds in a club because there a comedy club is because there are be adult themes, are going to be adult themes, potentially, and you're making a contract you? contract act, aren't you? and you a comedy club. you go into a comedy club. you're cope with you're saying, i can cope with this? mean, maybe we need this? i mean, maybe we need to get to sign good get the audience to sign a good behaviour maybe. you know, maybe. >> you know, >> but then, you know, that's what clubs the what certain clubs do. the club that i run, we cultivate that. we you come in to we say, look, if you come in to complain offended, complain about being offended, we're well, we're just going to say, well, that's your issue. you know, because it's not it's not the problem with the act. >> this. mean, >> you're new to this. i mean, like there like historically, weren't there ancient clown festivals in france a chalk france where they draw a chalk circle act and, and circle around the act and, and in that chalk circle, anything goes. and that's a really important function in. yes, of a society, have society, you know, to have a chance to punch up. >> well, they say that, don't they, bruce? they're the one sign a tyrant is when he sign of a tyrant is when he executes his clown, his court jester. that's sign executes his clown, his court jestyranny, that's sign executes his clown, his court jestyranny, because sign executes his clown, his court jestyranny, because sigthe of tyranny, because that's the character be character who's supposed to be able speak power able to speak truth to power without of without having the risk of decapitation . and we should have decapitation. and we should have that, too, right? >> but yeah, i feel you're looking at me as though you want to feel you're to decapitate me. i feel you're the . the tyrant. >> well, that's the problem, isn't because new isn't it? because the new

scottish crime is about scottish hate crime law is about the the victim. scottish hate crime law is about the you the victim. scottish hate crime law is about the you perceive the victim. scottish hate crime law is about the you perceive that/ictim. scottish hate crime law is about the you perceive that i'm m. scottish hate crime law is about the you perceive that i'm being hateful? >> well, i perceive you know, it's fact and it's based on fact and knowledge. hateful and knowledge. you are hateful and despise you, am i joke? no, she's very nice. but no, i really think it is open for abuse because you can take things the wrong way. yeah. and like as i said before, when i'm down the waitrose or in the middle because middle of lidl because i can keep real, i'm, it's like, keep it real, i'm, it's like, you if i to someone, you know, if i say to someone, oh, filthy goat pelt oh, get that filthy goat pelt away me because i don't away from me because i don't like wearing. what? like what they're wearing. what? suddenly i'm in barrel doing suddenly i'm in the barrel doing a 12 year stretch. >> i mean, is quite >> i mean, that is quite offensive, to be fair, bruce, but also from them . but it's also stolen from them. >> i can't where >> i can't remember where i think abfab. >> well, let's get another question now. this is from abdi abdi. hello >> hi, just a question. are there pro—palestine marches ? there pro—palestine marches? just a front for hate? >> yeah. hate is a bit of a theme tonight, abdi. i mean, did you see some of the marches yesterday? some of the footage? yes. what you make of that? yes. what did you make of that? >> have most of my >> well, i have said most of my friends those marches, so friends go to those marches, so i answer is so i think the answer is yes. so you're happy with them? >> hateful?

>> you think they're hateful? wow >> just the most fun people. >> just the most fun people. >> thankfully, they're not scottish , so they'll be all scottish, so they'll be all right, you know. well, they might be scottish, i know, might be scottish, all i know, but interesting but this is interesting because there yesterday, there was this march yesterday, pro—palestine march. now, obviously been going on obviously they've been going on every the every weekend. but the difference there difference yesterday is there were a lot of, shall we were quite a lot of, shall we say, problematic phrases uttered by some of the protestors which were caught on film. now, we don't want to get too specific. there have been some arrests in this have this case, but let's have a look. i think we've this case, but let's have a looisome i think we've this case, but let's have a looisome footage 1ink we've this case, but let's have a looisome footage ofk we've this case, but let's have a looisome footage of some'e this case, but let's have a looisome footage of some of the got some footage of some of the things that were said on yesterday's let's see yesterday's march. let's see what blog . yeah, man. what blog. yeah, man. >> yeah. my name is paul. i'm saying i fully support hamas. they resisted the occupation. >> i fully support hamas , move >> i fully support hamas, move it down, resisted the occupation here in britain. >> look at this . >> look at this. >> look at this. >> can't a picture of that? >> can't a picture of that? >> who controls britain is the is the jewish people that control the britain . 40% of the

control the britain. 40% of the mps are jewish and that's why these police are under their . these police are under their. >> so as you can hear some quite disturbing stuff, the idea of jewish people controlling the country, that's an old anti—semitic , a child anti—semitic trope, a child calling in support for the houthi rebels. i'm sure that child doesn't really understand the situation over there. and also someone openly saying they support and course support hamas. and of course that to support that is illegal to support a proscribed terrorist group in this when it comes this country. so when it comes to protests, bruce, i mean, what do think about this ? is it do you think about this? is it just few bad apples? do just a few bad apples? what do we these situations? we do about these situations? >> well, with that >> well, i agree with you that we have protest . we should have peaceful protest. i think that's a kind of human right. yes. and i think the police should just deal with the people that are flagrantly not being and being being peaceful and being provocative and shouting out offensive they offensive things, whether they believe it or not, or whether you agree with what's being protested . you have allow protested. you have to allow people, free, peaceful people, i think, free, peaceful protest . protest. >> it's difficult, isn't it? because, you know, as a free speech i think speech absolutist, i think people should be able to say whatever they want. and i certainly protests whatever they want. and i certainibe protests whatever they want. and i certainibe sacrosanct.otests

whatever they want. and i certainibe sacrosanct. we .ts whatever they want. and i certainibe sacrosanct. we should should be sacrosanct. we should all protest matter all be able to protest no matter what but that is i mean, what we do, but that is i mean, what we do, but that is i mean, what the problem i have with all of why aren't the other of that is why aren't the other people protest absolutely people at the protest absolutely stopping ? i mean, if i was at stopping it? i mean, if i was at a party protest and i was part of a protest and was of a protest and someone was calling for violence or something like that, i would say, hang a you don't say, hang on a minute. you don't represent us. up. i would represent us. shut up. i would tackle aren't tackle it. why aren't those other were those other people? why were those people with people chanting along with the child what was going on? >> possibly of those >> so, so possibly some of those people are hateful in their heart or, you know, have illegal sounds , silly sentence, have sounds, silly sentence, have illegal views, but, you know, it is illegal the houthi is illegal to support the houthi rebels, the rebels, for example. but the other that other possibility is that there's ignorance there there's a lot of ignorance there as well, isn't there? and there was i saw martin was a report i saw on martin daubney show this week by a young journalist called kyrees hussein, where he was he was polling sort a polling people, sort of doing a survey saying, oh, you survey saying, oh, do you support houthi on support the houthi rebels on this? king's this? i think it was king's college london. and lots of college in london. and lots of these young people these very young people were saying, yeah. and he kind of said, you know about said, oh, do you know about them, . kind of i'm them, yeah. kind of and i'm thinking, people in thinking, how many people in those don't actually

those protests don't actually know the detail? >> that good i mean, >> that is a good point. i mean, because seen interviews because we've seen interviews where people have been asked about from the about their chanting from the river and people have river to the sea and people have said and sea, said which river and which sea, and know . and they don't know. >> but if the police stepped in and the first person and arrested the first person who's , yeah, i love who's saying, yeah, i love hamas, that's that begins the conversation, and conversation, doesn't it? and the can't well, they the police can't just well, they have they can't just have been, but they can't just let things go. you've got let these things go. you've got to with those people. >> but i say, i mean, >> but like i say, i mean, i kind think the best way to kind of think the best way to approach is approach this is counter—protest. like approach this is coumot—protest. like approach this is coumot comfortable like approach this is coumot comfortable with.ike approach this is coumot comfortable with people approach this is coum(arrested,:able with people approach this is coum(arrested, even with people approach this is coum(arrested, even ifth people approach this is coum(arrested, even if they're le being arrested, even if they're saying . think saying horrible things. i think people standing people should be standing up and saying, for just saying, that's that's for just instance, there was a trans rights london recently rights rally in london recently where a trans activist stood up and people to punch and called for people to punch women who believe biological women who believe in biological sex. terf, punch sex. if you see a terf, punch them in the effing face, and everyone cheered. and that made me think, is actually, that means it's become normalised within movement , right? within that movement, right? it's not so much that there's a couple bad apples. everyone's it's not so much that there's a couple itiad apples. everyone's it's not so much that there's a couple it . d apples. everyone's it's not so much that there's a couple it . that)les. everyone's it's not so much that there's a couple it . that worrieseryone's it's not so much that there's a couple it. that worries me.|e's cheering it. that worries me. that really worries you that really worries me. you know, kind of know, i think that you kind of have a bit of have to take a bit of responsibility for what's going on own movement. anyway,

responsibility for what's going on get own movement. anyway, responsibility for what's going on get a own movement. anyway, responsibility for what's going on get a question ement. anyway, responsibility for what's going on get a question emerfrom yway, let's get a question now from luke. luke luke. where is luke high? >> should displaying >> should pubs be displaying nazi question , well, they >> what a question, well, they don't at my local, i can tell you that, but this is a pub called the hole in the wall pub. you will have heard of this. yes. not the kind you're thinking of, bruce, but there's a pub in cornwall, and it was an interesting story. i saw it this week about . they've basically week about. they've basically they've got this old memorabilia. this pub has won they've got this old menand)ilia. this pub has won they've got this old menand lots this pub has won they've got this old menand lots of|is pub has won they've got this old men and lots of awards 1as won they've got this old menand lots of awards .as won they've got this old menand lots of awards . bestn lots and lots of awards. best pub in cornwall. i don't know if that's accolade haven't that's an accolade i haven't been to cornwall, but they have. i'm it's a lovely and i'm sure. it's a lovely pub and because it a of military because it has a lot of military memorabilia, there was a british soldier came from the soldier who came back from the second world war with with the spoils of victory, i suppose you could and one of the things could say. and one of the things was soldiers armband , it was a nazi soldiers armband, it wasn't endorsing the nazis. and they had it in this glass case, apparently, in this really dusty , out of the way place in this sort a little mini sort of like a little mini museum have pub, museum they have in the pub, it's there over 80 it's been there for over 80 years. not like the people

years. it's not like the people who owned it put it there. it's certainly not to cause hate. it's opposite, actually, it's the opposite, actually, it's opposite. it's the opposite. >> put a plaque on it. >> so they put a plaque on it. this is my answer to everything. don't the statues down. put don't pull the statues down. put a plaque on them, you know. yeah. you can add something, a plaque on them, you know. yeah.you?can add something, a plaque on them, you know. yeah.you? you add something, a plaque on them, you know. yeah.you? you can something, a plaque on them, you know. yeah.you? you can sayething, a plaque on them, you know. yeah.you? you can say the ng, can't you? you can say the current view is such and such if you mean, hope you need to. i mean, you'd hope it obvious. it would be obvious. >> think pretty i >> i think it's pretty clear. i think on the think there's a consensus on the nazis. all think nazis. i think we all think i think i think think think i think we all think they're pretty bad lot. >> you don't it's the >> you don't think it's the cornish? because somebody >> you don't think it's the cornithebecause somebody >> you don't think it's the cornithe south;e somebody >> you don't think it's the cornithe south west,omebody >> you don't think it's the cornithe south west, you body >> you don't think it's the cornithe south west, you know, from the south west, you know, i know think from the south west, you know, i know a think from the south west, you know, i know a backward. think from the south west, you know, i know a backward. but:hink from the south west, you know, i know a backward. but no,( we're a bit backward. but no, i don't think the cornish are neo—nazi. neo— nazi. >> neo—nazi. >> i don't although there >> i don't think although there are they are cornish separatists, they can can't can be quite militant, can't they. yeah, i mean, they. yeah, so yeah, i mean, this why can't people this is clearly why can't people contextualise this is clearly why can't people con'of tualise this is clearly why can't people con'of tual running, way, out of the running, by the way, for pub just for for this pub award. just for this. because because this. because of that. because of i agree with you. just >> well, i agree with you. just put plaque that's the put a plaque on it. that's the thing. we just a thing. we should just have a series post—it series of laminated post—it notes. to deal notes. yeah. just to deal with any yeah, yeah, it's any situation. yeah, yeah, it's kind bonkers. kind of bonkers. >> i went to world >> i mean, i went to the world war museum and war ii museum in guernsey and it's swastikas . but i it's full of swastikas. but i don't think the guernsey people are nazis, right. >> the context is you're >> because the context is you're in a museum, right?

>> yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah, mean, i >> yeah, i mean, i hope so. i accidentally someone's accidentally went in someone's house move on house and anyway, let's move on now, next on free speech nation. it's just one day till that controversial new hate crime law is unveiled scotland. is unveiled in scotland. and we're assessing we're going to start assessing what this might have on what impact this might have on free speech. so please not go free speech. so please do not go anywhere.

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. so tomorrow is a day which has long beenin tomorrow is a day which has long been in the diary of free speech supporters. because the hate been in the diary of free speech suppo and. because the hate been in the diary of free speech suppo and public|se the hate been in the diary of free speech suppo and public orders hate been in the diary of free speech suppo and public order bill:e crime and public order bill scotland into effect scotland is coming into effect north border. and the north of the border. and the proposed well, proposed new law. well, the actual new law going to be actual new law is going to be making hatred making stirring up hatred against groups against certain groups a criminal offence, the criminal offence, even if the person making the remarks hadn't intended to do so or made them intended to do so or made them in private and critics are saying that bill could saying that the bill could lead to police to a slew of police investigations . but first investigations. but first minister yousaf says minister humza yousaf says people punished if they

people will be punished if they will be punished if they make vexatious . so we're vexatious complaints. so we're going to discuss this new bill in a series interviews, and in a series of interviews, and we're start by we're going to start by discussing laws discussing how the new laws could freedom. could affect religious freedom. and reason, have and for that reason, i have here, mcclatchey millar, here, lois mcclatchey millar, welcome to the show, lois. >> welcome back to the show. >> welcome back to the show. >> obviously, you've been on the show a few times, and obviously we've talked about this before, but it's getting pressing but it's getting very pressing now hate crime law. now with the new hate crime law. we was coming. what we knew it was coming. but what do yousaf now do you make of humza yousaf now coming out and saying, look, people going make people are going to make complaints, will punish people are going to make complaithe will punish people are going to make complaithe complaints punish them if the complaints are vexatious. them if the complaints are vexatiousfirstly, april >> well, firstly, happy april fool's from the scottish fool's day from the scottish government to us all and kind of reinforce the point about the clarity of the language. how will when will you now define when someone's with someone's being vexatious with their theme their complaints? the theme throughout hate speech laws has been that with a lack of clarity, the government get to decide what speech is legal and what speech isn't, and now which complaints are legal and which complaints are legal and which complaints aren't. confusingly. and with and that's the problem with these . we're not clear what

these laws. we're not clear what we can say and what we can't have chilling effect free speech. >> well, aren't saying >> well, aren't they also saying that complain that anyone can complain anonymously? that anyone can complain anortheyusly? that anyone can complain anorthey even possibly will they even possibly investigate nature of the investigate the nature of the complaint? also, they're not referring to these people as complainants. calling complainants. they're calling them victims, which presupposes that there is something to investigate in the first place. all of this stuff just feels as though are borrowing from though they are borrowing from some totalitarian some kind of totalitarian playbook , right? playbook, right? >> hate can often be in >> well, hate can often be in the the beholder. and the eye of the beholder. and i think about this on think you wrote about this on your substack, andrew, that your own substack, andrew, that hate human hate is a condition of the human heart, what heart, and no matter what legislation yousaf or legislation humza yousaf or justin trudeau or any of these guys through, they will guys puts through, they will never be able to stop never actually be able to stop the human heart emotion of hate. >> i mean, i'm not >> well, that's i mean, i'm not saying i support hate. i don't like but it's the like it, but it's a it's the reality. it's of the human reality. it's part of the human condition. know, great condition. you know, great playwrights condition. you know, great playwri about for written about this for centuries. though centuries. it's not as though you can just eradicate it with a few laws. >> indeed. and censorship has never effectively never been able to effectively control . no. control bad speech. no. throughout history we've seen this fail time and time again. but what this will do is instead of only targeting speech

of only targeting the speech that somebody doesn't like, it's going to be whatever the going to be whatever speech the scottish deems scottish government deems on that be considered that day to be considered hateful. makes it very hateful. that makes it very difficult for anyone who has a belief that falls belief or a view that falls outside mainstream, falls outside the mainstream, falls outside the dominant religion, if of the day. you if you like, of the day. you know, it's interesting, and i think it was that last think it was 1697 that the last man was condemned man in scotland was condemned for blasphemy. wow. and tomorrow we're bringing in another blasphemy law, but it's just reversed, you know , it was reversed, you know, it was always wrong that christianity had this enforcement that you could be punished for questioning the bible. that should have happened. should never have happened. everybody free everybody should have been free to and to challenge the bible and the church and what we believe. but now the reverse has happened and we the dominant beliefs of we have the dominant beliefs of the dominant the day. the dominant religion with and its with its own teaching and its own and its own own doctrine and its own mantras. if you question mantras. yes. if you question that , then you may be that now, then you may be punished. and this sentencing is pretty in this bill. it pretty severe in this bill. it can go up to seven years in prison. >> yes, absolutely. mean, >> yes, absolutely. i mean, isn't that, you know, isn't the point that, you know, free speech is really the defence religious defence of all religious freedoms to freedoms anyone's right to believe? have believe? and if you have a dominant religion, think

dominant religion, as i do think this is, is it does this movement is, it is it does feel to me. and also, feel religious to me. and also, what the future? i mean, what about the future? i mean, if have on the statute if they have this on the statute books, who's to say that a government 30 years government in ten, 20, 30 years time decide that time doesn't decide that criticism their policies is criticism of their policies is a hate is that possible ? hate act? is that not possible? >> very possible. it's all about the framing. all about the the framing. it's all about the language and we've seen this time and time again. and i think this has been used this word hate has been used as a framing for whatever is, a framing for whatever it is, you considered to be you know, considered to be disliked. that's disliked. and often today that's christianity. unfortunately, you know been traditional know, it's been a traditional belief for belief in this country for centuries . and i think that centuries. and i think that gives people a bit of a soft pass. and being able to criticise and go against it. and we be able to we should all be able to criticise by criticise any religion, but by deeming hateful, by saying deeming it hateful, by saying that somebody's beliefs or views are hateful and they should be criminalised, you're instantly telling the population that these are a bad group. these people are a bad group. yes but actually christianity is a religion that recognises the hatred in world, recognises hatred in the world, recognises injustice that we injustice and hardships that we all face. actually, i all face. and it actually, i mean, easter sunday today. mean, it's easter sunday today. we're fact that we're celebrating the fact that that jesus christ as we're celebrating the fact that tha believe jesus christ as we're celebrating the fact that tha believe and jesus christ as we're celebrating the fact that tha believe and that s christ as we're celebrating the fact that tha believe and that he hrist as

we're celebrating the fact that tha believe and that he dealt|s we believe and that he dealt with that and that we can live in peace and have that joy and hope christianity. so hope because of christianity. so it's that it's turned something that is meant to be a faith of love and hope, and it's deemed it. and branded it a way that is branded it in a way that is misunderstood misrepresented. did you expect i mean, you're >> did you expect i mean, you're you're from scotland. this is your country. do you feel bit your country. do you feel a bit i odd, it, that i mean, it's odd, isn't it, that it to have taken root in it seems to have taken root in scotland in ireland well? scotland and in ireland as well? and, do you feel and, you know, how do you feel about on a sort of about that on a sort of patriotic it's very sad. >> i mean, we had we the >> i mean, we had we were the home the great scottish home of the great scottish enlightenment. when you think of scotland , you think of the scotland, you think of the fringe festival and great comedy and great leaders of and you know, great leaders of the faith well the christian faith as well have ansen the christian faith as well have arisen and ireland arisen from scotland and ireland for now it seems for many years. but now it seems that because something is that just because something is considered old or considered outdated who are in outdated by those who are in power now, you can't believe that now. you can't speak about that now. you can't speak about that if extremely that even if it's extremely important conversations have. important conversations to have. >> find the >> and some people do find the bible offensive, the quran offensive. there people who offensive. there are people who will offensive. there are people who wilisure. in fact, a quarter of >> sure. in fact, a quarter of 18 to 34 year olds have said they would ban a religious text, such as the bible, if it was found have hate it .

found to have hate speech in it. and i think really shows and i think that really shows a religious know. right i think religious i know. right i think that shows a religious that really shows a religious illiteracy our generation, of illiteracy of our generation, of our institutions by saying, oh, whatever this faith is, i presume that it's hateful and therefore it should be banned and it hasn't engaged with the reality of those conversations because we're being censored, you know, fascinating and chilling you know, fascinating and chi|lois mcclatchey miller, >> lois mcclatchey miller, thank you for me you so much forjoining me so much. you so much forjoining me so mu thank you . >> thank you. >> thank you. >> so next up on free speech nafion >> so next up on free speech nation , we're going to be nation, we're going to be speaking to former snp councillor austin sheridan about why he thinks the introduction of hate crime laws in scotland is much needed step forward. is a much needed step forward. see shortly

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me . andrew doyle. nation with me. andrew doyle. we've just been talking about some of the reasons to be suspicious of the new hate crime laws, which will be introduced in but it'd

in scotland this week. but it'd be wrong say that that the be wrong to say that that the bill also enjoy bill does not also enjoy widespread support with its proponents, making that widespread support with its pr0|laws|ts, making that widespread support with its pr0|laws give|aking that widespread support with its pr0|laws give certain that widespread support with its pr0|laws give certain groups that the laws give certain groups some much needed protection from abuse. some much needed protection from abuse . so let's talk now to the abuse. so let's talk now to the former councillor, austin former snp councillor, austin shendan. former snp councillor, austin sheridan . austin, thank you ever sheridan. austin, thank you ever so much forjoining on free so much forjoining me on free speech can i just speech nation. can i just begin by asking why it you by asking you, why is it you feel that this new hate crime law necessary ? law is necessary? >> i feel that it's necessary because of maybe some of the things that we've actually seen, not scotland, but not just here in scotland, but across entirety of the uk. across the entirety of the uk. say, for example, look at what's happening in the middle east and we have both muslims, we have both people , for example, both jewish people, for example, who that they have who feel that they have been targeted , you know, through targeted, you know, through their religion. and mean, their religion. and i mean, at this moment in time, i feel like current legislation since 1986, we've legislation that we've had legislation that protects people against racism, as in people's race and everybody in the uk and benefits from that. and this would simply extend, that kind of legislation to cover things like religious, and background . and it could

and background. and it could also cover things like people's sexuality. and so on, because, you know, no one has the right to be abusive. absolutely have the right to free speech. but we don't have the we don't have the right to free hatred and to and to discriminate against people. >> i ask about that, >> can i ask you about that, austin? you specifically austin? because you specifically mentioned to the legislation relating to the protected characteristics, which of in the of course are enshrined in the equality 2010. so just equality act 2010. so i'm just cunous equality act 2010. so i'm just curious what kind of crimes would be covered by this new law that aren't already covered by existing law ? existing law? >> so, for example, it could be, you know, if there's someone outside an abortion centre who's holding up placards , which has holding up placards, which has been very distressing, you know, towards women . now there's towards women. now there's separate legislation going through the scottish parliament, for safe access zones. but some of the things that have been said on those placards have been deemed deeply offensive, have been towards been seen as hateful towards people, women that are people, towards women that are trying , at trying to access services, at

the moment and the things that are written on those , on those are written on those, on those placards aren't covered, and this new legislation would then review what has been said , and review what has been said, and then there would be a decision on whether that would that that would constitute as a hate crime, circumstances would would constitute as a hate cri|protests circumstances would would constitute as a hate cri|protests , circumstances would would constitute as a hate cri|protests , for umstances would would constitute as a hate cri|protests , for example,; would be protests, for example, i attended one at the sandyford centre , in glasgow, which is centre, in glasgow, which is a sexual health centre, and it was to do with where trans rights and it was to do with people being able to access transition services and through sandyford and there was people there holding up extremely offensive towards trans people. again and the current legislation doesn't cover those, however , can i cover those, however, can i explore that a little more? >> it's about making sure >> so it's about making sure that specific sorry, just that a specific also sorry, just to of to be clear, what sort of messages are you talking about? >> because we all to >> because we all need to understand it you mean understand what it is. you mean so signs at the so you saw some signs at the protest. give me an protest. can you give me an example something that was example of something that was said on a placard think said on a placard that you think would covered law? would be covered by this law? >> give an >> well, i'll give you an example that i

example of something that i watched from one of your shows. i was watching darren grimes and he showed a video, of a protester of , of, of a protester protester of, of, of a protester and how he can put his supporters to march, which is a terrorist organisation, and actual fact. darren grimes called for these kind of protests to be banned based on that one view. i that one man's view. now, i don't believe protest don't believe that protest should be banned in the forum because in freedom because i believe in freedom of speech. for people that, speech. however for people that, you that are showing those you know, that are showing those kind things, know, kind of things, you know, regardless, you regardless, i agree with you then kind of then then this kind of legislation could cover. >> to be clear, >> i just want to be clear, though, because i agree you though, because i agree with you that shouldn't be banned. >> but i wanted be absolutely >> but i wanted to be absolutely specific. saw specific. you said you saw a sign the sandyford clinic at sign at the sandyford clinic at a that that would a protest that would that would be covered the crime law. be covered by the new crime law. i to tell what i just want you to tell me what it that you thought it is you saw that you thought would now criminalised, well, would be now criminalised, well, |, would be now criminalised, well, i, couldn't recall. was i, i couldn't recall. it was a while back that i attended the protest, but recall it was protest, but i can recall it was relating trans people to, to dogs, essentially , which is, dogs, essentially, which is, which was my, my, my recollection. it was reported to the police at the time, and the

police informed us, that there wasn't that could wasn't anything that they could do, though was deemed do, even though it was deemed mtv i said, but mtv offensive, as i said, but there's other examples of there's many other examples of where that can be the case, as i say, it's not about trying to curtail people's rights to protest. i believe that's fundamental. i believe that people should have freedom people should have the freedom of and people, you know, of speech and people, you know, have the to debate. and, have the right to debate. and, you , certain aspects, you know, certain aspects, whether that religion, whether it's people it's government policy, people should be able debate those should be able to debate those in lawful manner. but in a safe and lawful manner. but it becomes a problem when there's people that are trying to know, these to use these, you know, these topics marginalising topics to start marginalising people in our society who the more often than not often just sorry to interrupt the concern. >> there, of course, is that a lot of people are interpreting statements fact, for statements of fact, for instance, hateful, instance, as being hateful, trying to stir up hatred or being transphobic. i mean, for instance, if someone were to hold a sign one of these hold a sign up at one of these protests simply said no protests which simply said no human has ever changed human being has ever changed sex, would say that sex, some people would say that thatis sex, some people would say that that is hateful and bigoted and should should be should be, that should be investigated. do you agree that that statement should

that sort of statement should be investigated under law? investigated under this new law? >> depends on the >> i think it depends on the context on how something's being said and whether it's been said in a way that is that is meant to be offensive. >> well, it's on a sign >> well, it's on it's on a sign at a protest outside the sandyford. but would sandyford. but but what would you on a sign you say to that? it's on a sign outside protest at the sandyford. >> or to give a better example, maybe what if, we've said some people have said that, that j.k. rowling investigated rowling ought to be investigated for referring to india willoughby should jk willoughby as male should jk rowling be investigated under this new hate speech law? in your view , for that statement? your view, for that statement? >> i've not seen , any of >> well, i've not seen, any of jk rowling's statements personally, so i would need to have a look in the context and the manner in which in. but if she is intending to misgender someone you know purpose, someone you know in purpose, which like she which to me it seems like she has, i mean, has, then absolutely. i mean, because would you out because why would you go out your you go out your way? why would you go out your way? why would you go out your to purposely miss your way to purposely miss gender don't what gender someone? i don't see what benefit anyone. benefit that brings to anyone. >> if for the >> well, you know, if for the preservation sexual tourism. >> but she doesn't have she's

not entitled to make people feel uncomfortable and to go out and misgendering people. >> no, but understand the >> no, but do you understand the point to sustain women's point that to sustain women's single rights single—sex single sex rights and single—sex spaces, an spaces, there has to be an acknowledgement biological sex? >> and sometimes that will involve someone who is involve calling someone who is born male, who transitioned, who now identifies as female , but now identifies as female, but identifying them as male. what you've said would suggest you've just said would suggest that you think that should be a criminal offence. and i'm worried about that. >> no, not case at >> no, that's not the case at all. does have to be all. there does have to be acknowledgement in circumstances where, you know, where people sex in terms of the sex that they were born in, has to be taken into consideration. you know, the best example in scotland be the isla scotland would be the isla bryson case. you know, i think that you the that anybody you know, in the right would that right mind would agree that that person be placed in a person should not be placed in a female , so of course, female prison, so of course, there are examples of where people's born sex should absolutely be taken into consideration. and there's no point in denying that it's the case because it is biological fact. what i'm saying, though, is that after after the case, we are saying only have not are saying you can only have not seen this. so i'm only giving

i'm only using as broad i'm only using it as a broad example. case example. if there was a case where she hasn't purposely misgendered you misgendered someone, you know, in order be offensive, in in to order be offensive, in order to potentially stir up hatred towards someone , then of hatred towards someone, then of course that is something that could potentially be investigated. saying investigated. i'm not saying thatis investigated. i'm not saying that is the case. i've not seen it. if that's what you're it. but if that's what you're suggesting, done , then suggesting, she has done, then potentially, yeah. suggesting, she has done, then pot howlly, yeah. suggesting, she has done, then pot how would|h. suggesting, she has done, then pot how would you. suggesting, she has done, then pot so w would you. suggesting, she has done, then pot so how uld you. suggesting, she has done, then pot so how would j. suggesting, she has done, then pot so how would you know if her >> so how would you know if her intention is to stir up hatred? how you know that it how would you know that it wasn't for just instance, how would you know that it wasn't forjust instance, a wasn't for just instance, a statement fact? not statement of fact? let's not forget that india willoughby has written abusive written an awful lot of abusive things well, things about jk rowling. well, india be india willoughby now be prosecuted hate prosecuted under this new hate crime law . crime law. >> well, exactly. because because this hate crime law appues because this hate crime law applies to everyone , right? so applies to everyone, right? so it's the same way, know it's just the same way, you know , that the current race legislation applies to every single person in the country, not just not not just minorities. and of course , minorities. and so, of course, after a valid complaint from from jk rowling towards anyone , from jk rowling towards anyone, where she feels that there's a victim being being committed, then of course, you know, the police should take the time to investigate that and see if

there is merit within that. and that's what i'm saying. this is our protects everyone, our law, that protects everyone, i do believe in free and freedom of speech, but what i don't believe in is freedom of hatred. and in some cases , what appeared and in some cases, what appeared to me that the opponents of this bill, cross—party bill, which has cross—party support scottish support in the scottish parliament, support in the scottish pa the nent, support in the scottish pathe conservative party and of the conservative party and the opponents of the bill, seemed mistake freedom of seemed to mistake freedom of speech , to being free to be speech, to being free to be hateful being free to be hateful and being free to be hateful and being free to be hateful is not something that should be allowed, but absolutely, we should always do our best to protect free speech, not allow and, you know, sensible reasonable and sensible and reasonable and measured sensible and reasonable and me do red sensible and reasonable and me do you do really >> do you really do you really think it always be done think that it always be done with ? with enough? >> do you really think that freedom of speech doesn't include speech and include offensive speech and the right offensive things? right to say offensive things? i mean, isn't that just of mean, isn't that just part of our as beings ? our freedom as human beings? >> no, i don't i don't think that i don't think that freedom of speech constitutes being free to be you know, to be hateful towards other people for, you know, so , for example, if know, so, so, for example, if we're going to debate race, religion, sexual orientation ,

religion, sexual orientation, well, you know, gender and all of things can be debated. of these things can be debated. now, there are people, for example, i supported the gender recognition reform, and there are people, you know, who are many people, you know, who were opposed to the legislation. but, terms of but, you know, in terms of concerns that had been raised and their viewpoint, there were very many people who had done it in respectful manner. and in in a respectful manner. and in terms of them as people, i would never were bad people terms of them as people, i would nevebecause were bad people terms of them as people, i would nevebecause they re bad people terms of them as people, i would nevebecause they don't! people terms of them as people, i would nevebecause they don't agree le just because they don't agree with that unfortunate thing with me. that unfortunate thing with the society we live in these days is that you don't these days is that if you don't agree someone, it seems to agree with someone, it seems to be do their best to be that they do their best to try and cancel each other out and other hateful, and call each other hateful, whereas i that we whereas i think that what we needis whereas i think that what we need is as a dose of need is as a as a dose of realism reality, realism and a dose of reality, and that, course and to say that, of course there's going be people that there's going to be people that disagree with each other, but we should allowed discuss should all be allowed to discuss things, and things, you know, you know, and contribute the political contribute to the political discourse without being offensive. just like what we're doing . doing today. >> andrew, does not concern >> andrew, does it not concern you, that who you, though, austin, that who gets what is gets to decide what is offensive? to decide gets to decide what is offen is e? to decide gets to decide what is offen is hateful to decide gets to decide what is offen is hateful ? to decide gets to decide what is offen is hateful ? we've decide gets to decide what is offen is hateful ? we've already what is hateful? we've already discussed how some people determine things to be hateful

when they're not, when they're just statements of biological fact. just statements of biological fact . in those circumstances, fact. in those circumstances, can you really trust the judiciary , the snp, to make judiciary, the snp, to make a sensible declaration about where that line is drawn ? that line is drawn? >> yeah, well, the snp would never make that decision on its own because because they the judicial separate, judicial system is separate, you know, political know, from the political system. so that would be a matter for the police and for the courts. and i say in terms of and as i say in terms of guidance, i am aukus sources in scotland . and, you know, obe scotland. and, you know, obe trained in what the new and what the new law means. and what could be deemed offensive in our faith and police service and faith and our police service and our prosecution service. our and our prosecution service. and are and for example, if there are examples and for example, if there are exeablezs and for example, if there are exeable to take that forward. be able to take that forward. and always and that should always be without interference, without political interference, because to because it is up to them to implement the law. and for those judgements passed, it's judgements to be passed, it's for not politicians to look at individual is broken individual cases. it is broken the law. and who hasn't broken the law. and who hasn't broken the law? >> i suppose concern is later >> i suppose my concern is later we're going to be talking to someone who was prosecuted in a scottish court for posting something that was something online that was grossly offensive. well, it wasn't grossly offensive to me

because joke, but it because it was a joke, but it was grossly offensive to that particular does particular judge. does the subjectivity of the notion of offence not concern you at all when it's on the statute books? >> well, mean, so i mean , i've >> well, i mean, so i mean, i've spoken to people have concerns regarding things like that. for example, it might have been a joke yourself , for other joke to yourself, but for other people deemed people it may have been deemed offensive , so but just because offensive, so but just because something is happening between two people and a private conversation of other people that can impacted by it, then that can be impacted by it, then of you know, is of course, you know, that is something that the law would have to take into consideration. and but there's other and so but there's other examples. i mean, even with current legislation, say, for example , if you were your example, if you were in your home as i do, i live in flats and you heard, you know, potential domestic abuse happen and i would want the police. and even that person had even if that person had been assaulted, and said, even if that person had been assijlted, and said, even if that person had been assi don't and said, even if that person had been assi don't want and said, even if that person had been assi don't want to and said, even if that person had been assi don't want to press! said, oh, i don't want to press charges . well, the police would charges. well, the police would then say actual fact, you then say no, in actual fact, you have assaulted. is have been assaulted. there is a case of domestic abuse. i case of domestic abuse. and i have crime

have reported that as a crime and even had nothing and even though i had nothing directly , ocean, for directly to do, ocean, for example, you know, if someone, you , has been hateful you know, has been hateful towards someone else and somebody else, you know, it feels impacted by it or feels it, that that person it, that that that that person has been unfairly and has been unfairly treated. and of people have of course, you know, people have the right to report that to the police, as i say, and for the police, as i say, and for the police to take that forward, once that once the police take that forward and the prosecution forward and once the prosecution service look at that, is then up to decide whether to them to decide whether that goes court or not. goes to court or not. >> well, austin sheridan, it's very people on very difficult to get people on this do take your very difficult to get people on this so do take your very difficult to get people on this so i do take your very difficult to get people on this so i really, do take your very difficult to get people on this so i really, genuinelye your view. so i really, genuinely appreciate coming talk appreciate you coming on to talk about former snp about it. that's former snp councillor sheridan. councillor austin sheridan. thank much . very thank you very much. very quickly, a response from you, lois . lois. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> well, it's striking to me that when austin was pulling out examples, he was pulling out what he would deemed to be what he would have deemed to be offensive. for example, outside the outside the sandyford clinic outside an abortion that abortion facility. i reckon that if somebody had said no child has been born in the wrong has ever been born in the wrong body , but austin and may have body, but austin and i may have interpreted differently, body, but austin and i may have inteithat'si differently, body, but austin and i may have inteithat's the differently, body, but austin and i may have inteithat's the cruxferently, body, but austin and i may have inteithat's the crux ofently, body, but austin and i may have inteithat's the crux of this, body, but austin and i may have inteithat's the crux of this law. and that's the crux of this law. thatis and that's the crux of this law. that is the problem we need to

have clear definitions if we're going speech, and going to ban any speech, and that achieved , and that cannot be achieved, and therefore we must have free speech everybody. okay. speech for everybody. okay. >> very contentious topic, >> well very contentious topic, but stuff. but it's fascinating stuff. and next nation we're next on free speech nation we're going to be talking to msp murdo fraser after tweet he posted fraser after a tweet he posted criticising the scottish government as a hate government was logged as a hate incident. so see you very shortly

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation in november last year, veteran conservative msp murdo fraser said on twitter that choosing to identify as non—binary was as valid as choosing to identify as a cat. a transgender activist reported the tweet to the police, who subsequently logged it as a hate crime incident. murdo fraser has announced that he will now take legal action against the force. so he joins me murdo so he joins me now. murdo fraser, thanks very much for joining the show . can

fraser, thanks very much for joining the show. can i joining us on the show. can i ask you firstly, pleasure to be with you first with you. when did you first hean with you. when did you first hear, how did you find out, in other words, your tweet had other words, that your tweet had in logged as a hate in fact been logged as a hate incident scottish incident with the scottish police ? police? >> well, happened back in >> well, this happened back in november when i shared an article by a fellow columnist of mine on the scotsman newspaper critiquing the scottish government's policy on having a non—binary action plan . it's, as non—binary action plan. it's, as you said, a trans rights activist , unbeknown to me, then activist, unbeknown to me, then reported that to the police, as a hate crime. now i knew nothing about that at the time that the police recorded it as a non—crime hate incident. the only reason i found out about it was that the complainer then reported me to the ethical standards commissioner, who is the individual who oversees the conduct of parliamentarians in scotland and the ethical standards commissioner dismissed the complaint that was made that i had breached the parliamentary code of conduct. but in common

with his normal practice , then with his normal practice, then wrote to me to tell me this complaint had been made and had it not been for that, i would still be oblivious to the fact that this non—crime hate incident had been recorded against me. and when, incidentally, i asked the police how many other such incidents might have been recorded against me, they couldn't tell me because they said that these weren't recorded against the name of the alleged perpetrator , name of the alleged perpetrator, but only in the name of the complainant cleaner. and this raises all sorts of serious issues . i'm raises all sorts of serious issues. i'm very raises all sorts of serious issues . i'm very grateful to the issues. i'm very grateful to the free speech union, who have been very supportive of me throughout this episode. we are taking a legal challenge to police scotland because we believe their action is unlawful in at least three respects. firstly, because it breaches human rights law which protects freedom of speech and specifically protects expressions of political opinion. secondly under the equality act, there's a there's a protection for gender critical views, which this was. and thirdly, it's a breach of the

data protection act because they are holding information about me that they don't have any legitimate right to hold. but we know i'm waiting for a response from the police, but we know that they've been doing this for a long time. >> a freedom of >> there was a freedom of information from the information request from the times newspaper discovered times newspaper that discovered that database that the police have a database of including that the police have a database of jokes including that the police have a database of jokes posted cluding that the police have a database of jokes posted online. that the police have a database of they jokes posted online. that the police have a database of they haven't; posted online. that the police have a database of they haven't informed>nline. that the police have a database of they haven't informed the |e. and they haven't informed the people that they've they've logged they've just recorded these in a list. isn't this going to get whole lot worse , going to get a whole lot worse, though, after tomorrow, after april when , these are april the 1st, when, these are going to be recorded with greater aggression. i mean, haven't the police said they've pledged every pledged to investigate every single complaint? >> yes. this is the real concern about the new act that comes into play in midnight tonight, because police have said because the police have said they will investigate every single complaint that they receive. they are likely to be deluged complaints against deluged with complaints against people in public life already on social media. there are there are activists, who are who are making a call for complaints to be made to the police. you can

see people who are prominent in pubuc see people who are prominent in public with gender critical public life with gender critical views, as jk rowling, for views, such as jk rowling, for example, hundreds example, generating hundreds or potentially thousands of complaints. the police have said that they will investigate every one, and if they're going to record every single one as a non—crime hate incident, that's going to not only take up a huge amount of police time, but if they're currently operating an unlawful policy that's going to mean they're going to fall foul of the law and be open to potential claims from a huge variety of people. >> you put variety of people. » you >> so apparently you were put on the vulnerable persons the interim vulnerable persons database, or at least the complainant was on the basis of your tweet about the cat. apparently there's over 850,000 people on that database. there's 1 in 6 of the scottish population. humza yousaf is now saying that he will actually make sure that people are investigated make investigated if they make vexatious complaints. you've vexatious complaints. so you've got then got those complaints and then people are going to be complaining about the complainants. this complainants. where does this end ? end? >> see the problem with what humza said? the other day humza yousaf said? the other day is you get the sense he's just making this up as along. making this up as he goes along.

the police scotland have been running media running a very active media campaign over the last number of weeks, encouraging people to come forward to make complaints. now they can't. on the one hand, encourage people to complain about tweets or anything said that offends them. on the other hand , threaten people that will hand, threaten people that will take action against vexatious complaints. these two things don't compute either. you're encouraging people to complain and complain with what offends them, you're warning them not them, or you're warning them not to. so the scottish government are all over the place this are all over the place on this as scotland, who keep as our police scotland, who keep changing what changing their story about what their policy is on the recording of non—crime hate incidents . i'm of non—crime hate incidents. i'm just really frustrated that, having written to the chief constable back in december, asking for a meeting that we can sit down and discuss this, it took me 12 weeks to get a reply. it didn't come from her. it came from my local chief inspector in perth where i live. so the police start taking this police need to start taking this seriously. otherwise they're going to be deluged with complaints activist complaints driven by activist and they won't have time to do

any other work and clear up real crimes. >> well, i was speaking earlier to former snp councillor austin sheridan, and he made the case that you say something that that if you say something that is upsetting or is offensive or upsetting or hateful, of course hateful, then of course you deserve to be investigated. presumably your comment about non binary identities being similar to identifying as a cat would fall into that category. i mean, when you said that, i mean, when you said that, i mean, do you , do you accept that mean, do you, do you accept that you you had said something that would cause offence? >> in law not >> there's no right in law not to be offended. first of all, i don't accept the premise that it was offensive. it was an expression of political expression of a political criticism of scottish government policy. but there's no right not to be offended . people say to be offended. people say offensive to me the offensive things to me all the time on social media and elsewhere. somebody saying for example, that a man can become a woman simply by saying he's a woman, and that gives him access to women's only spaces is, to me, deeply offensive. but i wouldn't dream of reporting that to the police and saying, that's a hate crime . well, i'm not a hate crime. well, i'm not going to get into murder.

>> can i ask, though, >> can i just ask, though, because the snp have very because the snp have said very explicitly threshold be explicitly the threshold will be very, high. the police very, very high. the police aren't going just investigate aren't going to just investigate things frivolous or things that are frivolous or trivial. but if that's the case, then tweet, clearly then your tweet, they clearly classify as reaching that very high threshold . that's high threshold. that's disturbing isn't it? >> well, it is disturbing , but >> well, it is disturbing, but bearin >> well, it is disturbing, but bear in mind my tweet dates back to november. this is before the new hate crime act comes into force . so it was being dealt force. so it was being dealt with under the pre—existing policy of police scotland, where everything that is reported to them is recorded as a non—crime hate incident. if it doesn't meet the threshold of criminality and that decision is based entirely on the perception of the complainer. so if any complainer says i regard this as offensive and hateful, police scotland under current policy will record that as a hate incident . now what's interesting incident. now what's interesting about this is following the harry miller case in the court

of appeal. i think two years ago, three years ago, the college of policing in england had to change their policy to comply with law they no comply with the law so they no longer record non—crime hate incidents in that way , for incidents in that way, for reasons best known to themselves, police scotland didn't take the same action. they are still pursuing the same policy prior to the miller case, and that's why we think the policy currently being deployed by police scotland is unlawful. but course , once the hate but of course, once the hate crime act comes into force in midnight tonight and we see the deluge we're expecting of many hundreds if not thousands more complaints coming in that's just going to lead to yet more non—crime hate incidents being recorded based on pre—existing police scotland policy, which again, i think is probably unlawful . unlawful. >> well, fascinating stuff. i trust you'll be able to come back on the show at some other point to give us an update. murdo fraser, thanks ever so much on show. much for joining me on the show.

thank and it's absolutely thank you. and it's absolutely fascinating to hear him say that because a number of former home secretaries did instruct the college of policing to stop recording non—crime hate incidents and they were just ignored. so this is chilling stuff. plenty more to come tonight on free speech nation, including discussion the including a discussion of the juuan including a discussion of the julian assange case with his brother, shipton. please julian assange case with his bronot', shipton. please julian assange case with his bronot go shipton. please julian assange case with his bronot go anywhere.ton. please do not go anywhere. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. >> hello! welcome to your latest gb news, weather. it's been fairly sunny across the northern half of the uk. fairly sunny across the northern half of the uk . we've seen half of the uk. we've seen increasing cloud in the south and we're going to see further rain push in over the next few hours. looking at the bigger hours. but looking at the bigger picture, low pressure dominates at the moment. it does mean further showers and rain is on the we've got some heavy

the way. we've got some heavy rain this evening across southern of england and southern parts of england and this pushing slowly northwards into the midlands and wales as we head into the early hours. thicker cloud and rain also pushing in from the north sea to affect northeast england . affect northeast england. generally a little drier across scotland. northern ireland here some clear spells and for most temperatures remaining above freezing. so it's a mixed start to monday . we've got cloud and to monday. we've got cloud and outbreaks of rain across this central swathe of the uk, some brighter skies to the north of it and to the south. but it's to the south where we'll see some heavy showers developing as we move into the afternoon. move through into the afternoon. some some in some hail, some thunder in there. could some there. we could see some local disruption, cloud disruption, cold under the cloud and rain , particularly northern and rain, particularly northern england, southern scotland, or england, southern scotland, 9 or 10 of any 10 degrees in the best of any sunny spells either side of this, up to around 14 or 15 degrees tuesday . a mixed degrees for tuesday. a mixed picture. we'll have sunny spells and scattered showers across much of the country, however, low cloud, rain and drizzle will affect parts of scotland. then later on in the day, further wet and windy weather starts moving

into the south—west. it remains unsettled through into wednesday and thursday with further rain at times. temperatures around average . average. >> that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers. sponsors of weather on gb news

news. >> and there's plenty more still to come on. free speech nation. this week. including more discussion of the new hate crime laws in scotland coming into force tomorrow. and myself and my panel will answer of my panel will answer some of your dilemmas, your unfiltered dilemmas, as well questions well as taking more questions from our rather wonderful easter sunday audience. but let's get a news update first from tatiana sanchez. >> andrew. thank you. the top stories this hour. king charles has made his first significant pubuc has made his first significant public appearance since his

cancer . joined by the cancer diagnosis. joined by the queen, he smiled and waved as he left an easter sunday service at saint george's chapel in windsor and went on to greet crowds. a member of the public told the king to keep going strong , and king to keep going strong, and others said he looked well. the prince and princess of wales missed the service as catherine continues her cancer treatment . continues her cancer treatment. meanwhile, the archbishop of canterbury has wished the king and princess of wales well dunng and princess of wales well during his easter sermon at canterbury cathedral, justin welby encouraged the congregation to pray for charles and catherine and praised their dignity as they both undergo treatment for cancer . dignity as they both undergo treatment for cancer. in his easter message , the prime easter message, the prime minister paid tribute to the work of churches and christian communities across the country. >> happy easter everyone ! this >> happy easter everyone! this weekend, as people come together to celebrate and reflect on the message of the heart of the easter festival, i want to pay tribute to the incredible work of christians in this country

the churches, charities, volunteers and fundraisers who live the christian values of compassion, charity and self—sacrifice, supporting those in need and demonstrating what it means to love thy neighbour. >> thousands of people turned out to see pope francis preside over easter mass at the vatican. the pontiff delivered delivered his urbi et orbi blessing from the balcony of saint peter's basilica. pope francis, who's been dealing with health problems in recent weeks, used his address to renew his call for an immediate ceasefire in gaza along with the release of all israeli hostages . meanwhile, all israeli hostages. meanwhile, israel's prime minister says more than 200 gunmen have been killed by his country's forces at a hospital in northern gaza. another hospital further south was also targeted by an airstrike. several tents on the grounds of the al shifa were hit, reportedly killing four people and injuring others, including journalists . the including journalists. the israeli military says it was focusing on a terrorist command

centre. the precise hit, designed to minimise civilian casualties. benjamin netanyahu also declared there would be no victory over hamas without a rafah operation , and almost 400 rafah operation, and almost 400 migrants crossed the channel today as weather conditions continue to deteriorate over both days this weekend, border force officials intercepted 16 small boats carrying 735 people. it takes the total number of those who've arrived illegally to more than 5400 this year. a third higher than the figure recorded this time last year. for the latest story, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen, or go to gb news. com slash alerts. now back to . back to. andrew. >> welcome back to free speech nafion >> welcome back to free speech nation with me andrew doyle. so

let's get some more questions from our lovely audience. our first question comes from ant. where hello ant. where is ant? hello ant. >> good evening panel, so in gcse tradition my question is in multiple choice format. >> blimey. steady on. >> blimey. steady on. >> so are the tories facing a an election catastrophe? be the most humiliating defeat of any political party in the last 100 years? see, being consigned to sweeping the floor in one of angelina's properties, or d all of the above. >> can i phone a friend, ant? is that possible ? i love the way that possible? i love the way you've prepared all this in this meticulous way. what do you think? >> well, in m and >> well, i live in an area and i. i know an awful lot of people who voted tory, including in the past, myself. yes. i don't know one of them. not one that is going to vote tory next time . going to vote tory next time. >> and that's interesting, isn't it? because there was just the poll that came out yesterday was pretty i mean, pretty disastrous. i mean, they'rewould under tories would get under 100 seats. that's

seats. i mean, that is that's a massacre. forget about it. you know, that's i mean, but have the i mean, you know, from what ant is saying, the big problem they is even tory voters they face is even tory voters aren't voting tory. the aren't voting tory. no. the people done before, people who've done it before, they're sick them. they're really sick of them. >> mean, just i don't >> yeah. i mean, ijust i don't know what add. we cover this know to what add. we cover this every night on headline. it's like rishi. not like poor old rishi. it's not looking lose looking good and he might lose his they're now. looking good and he might lose his exactly. 're now. looking good and he might lose his exactly. yeah now. looking good and he might lose his exactly. yeah it's now. looking good and he might lose his exactly. yeah it's pretty. yeah, exactly. yeah it's pretty. >> they brought it themselves? >> 100% having a bad day and >>100% having a bad day and they've earned i mean, they they've earned it. i mean, they haven't done anything conservative. so yeah, conservative. so yeah, conservative probably conservative people probably won't vote for them. >> isn't that it's not rocket science, is it? you know, if you're conservative party, you're the conservative party, but like labour being but it's a bit like labour being so insufferably class. so insufferably middle class. they're labour. they're called labour. so it's supposed working supposed to be about working class people. >> is that keir >> the difference is that keir doesn't a reform doesn't have a reform type situation , does worry situation, does he, to worry about moment. that's about at the moment. no that's true. clear run to the true. nice. clear run to the finish. whereas no finish. whereas rishi no no i mean what what can they do at this point. >> should they just give it up. >> should they just give it up. >> yeah i think they should just be quiet. yeah. be quiet . just be quiet. yeah. be quiet. just admit move away. admit defeat and move away. >> there isn't >> yeah. because there isn't really anything they could do to

turn it around at this point, i don't you maybe, don't think. do you think maybe, bruce, it's because there's a kind fatigue we've kind of general fatigue we've had too long and now had them in for too long and now we a change, if we just want a change, even if that labour. we just want a change, even if tha yeah.bour. we just want a change, even if tha yeah. no,. we just want a change, even if tha yeah. no, i think people are >> yeah. no, i think people are tired and i go back to tired of them. and i go back to i mean, i know you like liz, but you know, she is responsible for a few wee financial problems for a few wee financial problems for a lot of people. and i think that's pretty much been the straw that has broken the camel's they camel's back. but yeah, they have in. and what if they have been in. and what if they actually done? >> what about in >> but then what about in scotland? people scotland? because aren't people bored people very bored >> some people are very bored of the including snp . the snp, including the snp. >> yeah, that's what i think. >> yeah, that's what i think. >> not allowed to >> they're just not allowed to say it. >> right, let's move on to >> all right, let's move on to another question. now who's our next questioner? rob is it rob? hi, hi. hello. next questioner? rob is it rob? hi, hello,i. hello. next questioner? rob is it rob? hi, hello, andrew, does peter pan >> hello, andrew, does peter pan contain examples of white supremacy ? supremacy? >> oh, of course it does. everything does everything in the world. so this is a collection of children's stories. of course , that have stories. of course, that have been given a trigger warning by york john university. and york saint john university. and there are lots of books, but included in that are j.m.

barrie's peter pan, alice in wonderland lewis carroll , wonderland by lewis carroll, several books by jules verne, and the disclaimer that the and the disclaimer says that the famous books may contain offensive examples of white supremacy. was captain hook a white supremacist? i can't remember de—man oh, probably. >> i think he was a white bloke, wasn't it? he didn't have a disability, but, he did. >> should get some points for >> he should get some points for that, right? >> yeah, probably. that, right? >> yeah, probably . yeah. no, i >> yeah, probably. yeah. no, i think he was, but i mean , isn't think he was, but i mean, isn't it boring? >> it's just boring. >> it's just boring. >> it's just boring. >> it's always the same thing. i always think, are these always think, who are these special are special librarians that are allowed keys to the naughty cupboard they can decide cupboard that they can decide who's allowed who isn't? who's allowed in and who isn't? >> know, with >> well, you know, like with children's so children's books as well. so doctor it doctor seuss, the what's it called? of doctor called? the estate of doctor seuss. they didn't just say, oh, apply seuss. they didn't just say, oh, apply trigger warnings to some of the books, they stopped selling there's selling them. there's now six titles the doctor seuss titles in the doctor seuss back catalogue. any catalogue. you cannot buy any more . you have second more. you have to get second hand because they're hand books because they're saying . but saying it's too problematic. but these books are written ages ago. of course they're problematic. >> the cat in hat. problematic. >> well, at in hat. problematic. >> well, it in hat. problematic. >> well, i think hat. problematic. >> well, i think yout. problematic. >> well, i think you can still get right. okay. get that one right. okay. i think it's the one about the kkk

rally they're saying is a problem. now all of sudden problem. now all of a sudden i'm. joking, obviously, but i'm. i'm joking, obviously, but i'm. i'm joking, obviously, but i i suppose by i mean, they are i suppose by our racist. because i mean, they are i suppose by our go racist. because i mean, they are i suppose by our go back racist. because i mean, they are i suppose by our go back long. because i mean, they are i suppose by our go back long enough,e if you go back long enough, people these terrible people had these terrible views and more and we are slightly more enlightened but doesn't enlightened. but doesn't the context enough? context of history do enough? you would think it goes back to the plaque thing. >> you can't. i just don't think you can expunge everything to the history vaults. just because that's how you feel, you know? well what about rewriting? >> because an interesting rewriting? >> be because an interesting rewriting? >> be because {is interesting rewriting? >> be because eis this'esting thing. because this is this trigger warning thing might actually what cressida actually fit into what cressida is about put plaque on is saying about put a plaque on everything. have been everything. but there have been some publishing have some publishing houses that have been old been actually rewriting the old books, did it to roald books, so they did it to roald dahl books, so they did it to roald dahl. but even the extent dahl. but even to the extent where some of the people, they took phrase fat. so if took out the phrase fat. so if someone described fat , someone was described as fat, they took that out. >> infuriating. whole >> it's infuriating. the whole point of roald dahl. well, it's up to you, relationship up to you, your relationship with but for me, with the author. but for me, part it is like it's teaching part of it is like it's teaching kids world always very kids the world isn't always very nice, right? you really learn that in dahl. that in roald dahl. >> imagine roald da >> i also imagine roald da probably nice. probably wasn't very nice. no, he dodgy stuff say he had some dodgy stuff to say about know, i about jewish people, you know, i think, needed to be think, but maybe he needed to be

that to come up with that twisted to come up with these characters. these twisted characters. >> to stop being >> we've got to be stop being surprised extraordinary >> we've got to be stop being surprised a extraordinary >> we've got to be stop being surprised a bitzxtraordinary >> we've got to be stop being surprised a bit extraordinary. people are a bit extraordinary. >> he >> well, considering that he wrote everything in a shed at the bottom of the garden. is that right? yeah. no. you did. and called and he was called mouldy a sophie granddaughter, and he was called mouldy a sophie call granddaughter, and he was called mouldy a sophie call him granddaughter, and he was called mouldy a sophie call him mouldy ughter, and he was called mouldy a sophie call him mouldy because used to call him mouldy because he was stuck in the shed. he was just stuck in the shed. i don't know, obviously had he was just stuck in the shed. i don't kind , obviously had he was just stuck in the shed. i don't kind of obviously had he was just stuck in the shed. i don't kind of liceviously had he was just stuck in the shed. i don't kind of lice andsly had he was just stuck in the shed. i don't kind of lice and bacteria, some kind of lice and bacteria, he chocolate because he was high on chocolate because he was high on chocolate because he liked chocolate bar. he liked a chocolate bar. >> do indoctrinate you >> his books do indoctrinate you a bit, don't they? >> again, i hate this idea that children never hear any bad news or never learn. children never hear any bad news or rwell, learn. children never hear any bad news or rwell, isn't. children never hear any bad news or rwell, isn't that kind of >> well, isn't that kind of good? >> isn't it? it's a bit like building up your immune system. >> isn't it? it's a bit like builknowrp your immune system. >> isn't it? it's a bit like builknowrp your mean? e system. >> isn't it? it's a bit like buil knowrp your mean? e sy know, you know what i mean? you know, like do it. >> yes, exactly. >> yes, exactly. >> they children shouldn't >> they say children shouldn't be, you know, they should play >> they say children shouldn't betheu know, they should play >> they say children shouldn't bethe mud w, they should play >> they say children shouldn't bethe mud because ;hould play >> they say children shouldn't bethe mud because theyd play >> they say children shouldn't bethe mud because they won't >> they say children shouldn't bet ill mud because they won't >> they say children shouldn't bet ill later because they won't >> they say children shouldn't bet ill later on. ause they won't >> they say children shouldn't bet ill later on. ause should on't get ill later on. you should read people. read books about fat people. >> eventually going >> eventually you're going to work with somebody really helpful, and you're going to come people and come across bad people and i love the way you pointed at bruce when you that. bruce when you said that. >> thought going to >> i thought he was going to start point. start another point. >> think you >> no, no, no, i think you should books about should read books about fat people crisps and people whilst eating crisps and biscuits that , biscuits and things like that, talking that, talking about doing that, putting pictures of fat people on biscuits .

on biscuits. >> are they really reading about that lately because it works with cigarettes. anyway >> is that right? >> is that right? >> not shaming >> is that not fat shaming through medium biscuits? through the medium of biscuits? >> , exactly. outrageous. >> yes, exactly. outrageous. >> yes, exactly. outrageous. >> that's what's >> so that's going to what's happened scotland . happened tomorrow in scotland. then be then there's going to be morbidly obese people on shortbread morbidly obese people on shoyepead morbidly obese people on shoyep .id morbidly obese people on shoyep . fairly. >> yep. fairly. >> yep. fairly. >> and then people complaining that on a shortbread. >> and then people complaining tha oh, on a shortbread. >> and then people complaining tha oh, it's on a shortbread. >> and then people complaining tha oh, it's never shortbread. >> and then people complaining tha oh, it's never ending. ad. >> and then people complaining tha oh, it's never ending. no, >> oh, it's never ending. no, it's a spiral of doom. >> let's move to question it's a spiral of doom. >> lfrom nove to question it's a spiral of doom. >> lfrom stephanie, question now from stephanie, hello. >> you know what the term >> hi. do you know what the term grey romantic means ? grey romantic. >> okay, so this is there's been this lgbtq+ survey given to nhs workers . it's asking. and this lgbtq+ survey given to nhs workers. it's asking. and i'm not joking. it asks for their current sex, and it also asks for romantic orientation . and for romantic orientation. and one of the options is grey romantic abrosexual , is another romantic abrosexual, is another one, isn't it? abrosexual. when you're attracted to someone because of their, i don't know, their shoe size or something. actually, no. it says no. >> there's people >> it changes. there's people who up yes, who are always up for it. yes, there's people who are up for it occasionally. and there's occasionally. and then there's abrosexual, all abrosexual, which i think is all of humanity. we all have good

days days. days and bad days. >> what about >> and then what about stephanie's grey romantic? >> oh, that's. are they're >> oh, that's. are they they're not often not very often people. >> rarely. >> they're rarely. >> they're rarely. >> rarely want to >> yeah. rarely do they want to engagein >> yeah. rarely do they want to engage in any kind of sexual activity. that's just most engage in any kind of sexual activity. people, at's just most engage in any kind of sexual activity. people, isn't ust most engage in any kind of sexual activity. people, isn't it? most married people, isn't it? >> are they >> yes. yeah. why are they asking this? is asking people about this? why is the nhs asking you? i don't think it's the nhs. >> i think because it's somewhere in the article it says the nhs didn't approve of this. so it just leaves you thinking, well who did then. >> here's the thing. >> well look, here's the thing. >> well look, here's the thing. >> know, for years gay >> you know, for many years gay people discriminated >> you know, for many years gay people the iscriminated >> you know, for many years gay people the workplace.! against in the workplace. they were facing discrimination all the time, even by sort of mainstream you mainstream commentators, you know, casually know, just people casually homophobic. kind have homophobic. so you kind of have to we've to address that. now, we've addressed moved on. addressed that. we've moved on. everyone's equal now. everyone's got equal rights now. they're finding they're sort of finding things like people are coming out as asexual. you asexual. i don't care if you don't sex with don't want to have sex with someone. my business someone. it's not my business like it's not. you haven't been oppressed. you're not oppressed. >> if oppressed. you're not oppressed. >> wanted if oppressed. you're not oppressed. >> wanted to if oppressed. you're not oppressed. >> wanted to have if oppressed. you're not oppressed. >> wanted to have withf oppressed. you're not oppressed. >> wanted to have with the you wanted to have sex with the person didn't want to person and they didn't want to have would be bothered person and they didn't want to hathat would be bothered person and they didn't want to hathat case, would be bothered person and they didn't want to hathat case, that'sd be bothered person and they didn't want to hathat case, that's oppressive 'ed in that case, that's oppressive to absolutely. in that case, that's oppressive to you absolutely. in that case, that's oppressive to you ecomplain. >> you should complain. >> you should complain. >> saying >> but people saying i'm grey, romantic, want romantic, you know, you do want to say just get over to sort of say just get over your self, don't you? your cheap self, don't you? because haven't been they

because they haven't been they haven't oppressed. haven't been oppressed. >> a fetish >> no. i thought it was a fetish for be perfectly honest. >> nothing wrong with that. silver foxes. who doesn't love him? move on to him? woof okay, let's move on to another question. this is andy. andy where art thou? hi. >> hi, andrew. you're right. i'm not bad. >> thanks. >> thanks. >> do you think you should face prison time just for. just for writing a bad review? yeah >> so this is to do with the nigerian businesswoman whose apparent could face up to seven years in prison because she wrote a bad review . wait for it. wrote a bad review. wait for it. it was a tin of tomato puree. okay and she shared this photo of this puree. she said she found it too sweet. but the makers who were this group called eresko foods, asked the police to arrest her. and as she's being criminally prosecuted and sued for £3 million in the civil courts, it's bit much. isn't it? it's a bit much. isn't it? >> a bit odd, isn't it? yeah. i think this is a case of big tomato puree. >> big tomato puree. they run the world. >> apparently do. yeah. the world. >> i.pparently do. yeah. the world. >> i.pparen iy do. yeah. the world. >> i.ppareni don't do. yeah. the world. >> i.ppareni don't know'eah. the world. >> i.ppareni don't know what to >> i mean, i don't know what to make of story. the, the guy make of this story. the, the guy who this food has got

who makes this food has got in touch police said, touch with the police and said, you to sort that and you want to sort that out and where's going you want to sort that out and wh ine's going you want to sort that out and whin nigeria? going on in nigeria? >> so do they have stricter on in nigeria? >> in so do they have stricter on in nigeria? >> in nigeriahey have stricter on in nigeria? >> in nigeria againste stricter on in nigeria? >> in nigeria against sort cter on in nigeria? >> in nigeria against sort ofer laws in nigeria against sort of like or until this i like or until this afternoon, i didn't know about it. didn't know anything about it. >> andrew. >> andrew. >> no, it's super particularly sensitive issue over there. >> so i think she's now countersuing good luck to countersuing them. good luck to her because it sounds terrifying doesn't it. she's i mean, she's her because it sounds terrifying do> it just sounds made up. isn't it b and a? tempted tweet >> it just sounds made up. isn't it b and ask tempted tweet >> it just sounds made up. isn't it b and ask herempted tweet >> it just sounds made up. isn't it b and ask her whenj tweet >> it just sounds made up. isn't it b and ask her whenj dolmio her and ask her when her dolmio day see what kind of day is and see what kind of response get. response i get. >> that be cruel, >> yeah, that would be cruel, but that very but i'd enjoy that very interesting, weird. interesting, but very weird. >> another question >> let's have another question now . hi, gemma. oh, now from gemma. hi, gemma. oh, you need the mic. gemma. can someone scurry over with the microphone? stick, microphone? the talking stick, the . the conch. >> hello, hello. >> hello, hello. >> are horses anti—lgbt+ >> are horses anti—lgbt+ >> well, it's interesting you say that, gemma, because now i saw a video, a clip of horses a couple of years ago going to , couple of years ago going to, you know, they do these sort of rainbows, zebra crossings. and there a video that went there was a video that went viral and it was police viral and it was these police horses going up to the rainbow,

and they don't cross because and they don't cross it because the it, they the way that they see it, they think it's alarming and they think it's alarming and they think it's alarming and they think it's almost like they're going into the ground. going to fall into the ground. and so don't it, so and so they don't cross it, so what? so rather than just get rid stupid rainbow rid of the stupid rainbow crossings , the metropolitan crossings, the metropolitan police are given special police horses are given special training. so they don't get training. now so they don't get spooked by the road markings. now i'm sorry, bruce, i don't mean this to homophobic , mean this to sound homophobic, but you know what? do you know what? gay people don't need a rainbow flag to cross the road. we've been doing for years, we've been doing it for years, but do it without that. but we can do it without that. it's necessary. it's not necessary. >> been doing with it's not necessary. >> flagseen doing with it's not necessary. >> flags as1 doing with it's not necessary. >> flags as well. g with it's not necessary. >> flags as well. let's/ith other flags as well. let's be honest. exactly other flags as well. let's be hor no. exactly other flags as well. let's be hor no. exacfor it. no. so why >> no need for it. no. so why do. retrain horses? why >> no need for it. no. so why do. just retrain horses? why >> no need for it. no. so why do. just retrback horses? why >> no need for it. no. so why do. just retrback to 1orses? why >> no need for it. no. so why do. just retrback to normalwhy not just get back to normal zebra crossings? >> suppose >> well, i suppose they're scared that they're going be scared that they're going to be seen homophobic. but seen as being homophobic. but i don't you would don't understand why you would put any kind put the animal in any kind of bother. >> know any gay people >> i don't know any gay people who this. who asked for this. >> know any people. >> i don't know any gay people. >> i don't know any gay people. >> there in hemel >> i do know two there in hemel hempstead. >> i do know two there in hemel hempstthat's different . >> oh, that's different. >> oh, that's different. >> yeah, but they've got very little going on in their lives, you that little going on in their lives, you of that little going on in their lives, you of attention. that little going on in their lives, you of attention. yeah. that little going on in their lives, you of attention. yeah. butat little going on in their lives, you of attention. yeah. but you kind of attention. yeah. but you know. weird. no. gay

know. but it's weird. no. gay people i know have said, oh, you know we have we've know what we won't have we've got got got equal marriage. we've got age of consent, equality. we've got visiting rights in hospitals. what we need now is road crossings. hospitals. what we need now is road cr> bonkers. how in the >> bonkers. i love how in the article times it said >> bonkers. i love how in the arinoe times it said >> bonkers. i love how in the arino extra times it said >> bonkers. i love how in the arino extra cost. imes it said >> bonkers. i love how in the art no extra cost. they've;aid >> bonkers. i love how in the art no extra cost. they've got at no extra cost. they've got somebody to pay for this. so desperate police desperate to tell us the police aren't money rafe. aren't spending money on rafe. >> they've already spent >> no, but they've already spent loads painting loads of money on painting the damn and, you know, it's damn things. and, you know, it's actually to actually really expensive to do this. for this. it's not just bad for horses, by way. guide dogs horses, by the way. guide dogs really it. and really can't stand it. and it's also bad people also really bad for people who suffer disability suffer from disability issues with autism , it's just with sight and autism, it's just an and an absolute disaster. and they're with this they're just persist with this stuff because they you know what it is. it's patronising. it's like people , we need to like you gay people, we need to look you make you feel look after you and make you feel secure and we'll secure and safe, and we'll do this. like one wants this. and it's like no one wants it. then are we on the >> but then why are we on the ground? people walking over >> why are people walking over us? exactly. us? yeah, exactly. >> homophobic hate crime. >> treating us like >> yeah. treating us like absolute >> yeah. treating us like absyeah. absolutely. >> yeah. yeah, absolutely. >> yeah. yeah, absolutely. >> yousaf >> yeah. yeah, absolutely. >> sort yousaf >> yeah. yeah, absolutely. >> sort this yousaf >> yeah. yeah, absolutely. >> sort this out. yousaf and sort this out. >> i think i don't think he's that bothered about it. no. probably not homos. no.

>> he not? no. okay, well, on >> is he not? no. okay, well, on that note, next up on free speech nation, film producer gabriel shipton is going to be here to discuss his brother, juuan here to discuss his brother, julian assange, and his attempt to avoid extradition to the usa. it's going to be very exciting. don't go anywhere

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. wikileaks founder julian assange has been handed what may be only a temporary reprieve in his fight against extradition to the usa . the us must assure julian usa. the us must assure julian assange freedom of speech assange has freedom of speech protections and will receive protections and will not receive the before is the death penalty before he is extradited , judges have ruled. extradited, judges have ruled. us authorities say mr assange endangered lives by publishing thousands of classified documents , and they have now documents, and they have now three weeks to provide the uk court with the assurances they seek. to discuss this seek. so here to discuss this hugely significant free speech case, i'm joined by julian assange's brother, the film

producer gabriel shipton, gabriel, be by gabriel, you must be thrilled by this reprieve. at least a temporary reprieve at the moment. what do you make of some of the critics of julian assange, your brother, who assange, of your brother, who say, well, did put people's say, well, he did put people's lives and therefore he lives at risk and therefore he needs to face justice? >> well, we asked them for the proof where is the proof that he put lives at risk? i think, dunng put lives at risk? i think, during the leakers trial, chelsea manning, during the leakers trial, chelsea manning , there was a chelsea manning, there was a general who was hired by the obama administration to actually try and find anybody who was harmed by these leaks. and they admitted under that they admitted under oath that they couldn't find any anybody who'd been harmed, or came to harm because of chelsea manning's leaks and because of what had been published similarly, during the extradition hearing, the prosecution had to admit exactly the same thing that they couldn't actually find anybody , couldn't actually find anybody, who had been harmed by these leaks. and it's actually the opposite . what these, leaks opposite. what these, leaks

exposed , was, war crimes, exposed, was, war crimes, a helicopter gunship in the collateral murder video, firing on, two unarmed, reuters journalists. so i think that's actually where the harm lays in this situation. >> in this case, do you fear that it's become very politicised? i mean, we've seen, a major political figures in the usa going back and forth on this one. you know, donald trump at one. you know, donald trump at one point wasn't big of one point wasn't a big fan of wikileaks then. of a sudden, wikileaks then. all of a sudden, your brother leaked emails wikileaks then. all of a sudden, your hillary leaked emails wikileaks then. all of a sudden, your hillary clinton emails wikileaks then. all of a sudden, your hillary clinton , emails wikileaks then. all of a sudden, your hillary clinton , and nails wikileaks then. all of a sudden, your hillary clinton , and allls wikileaks then. all of a sudden, your hillary clinton , and all of from hillary clinton, and all of a sudden wikileaks had some value. so this has become a sort of a kind political football of a kind of political football over it ? over there, hasn't it? >> yeah. political football, a political hot potato. now for the biden administration , during the biden administration, during an election year, they i don't believe they want , you know, a believe they want, you know, a publisher, a journalist, coming to their soil in a in a huge free speech case during an election period, this was, really ramped up under the trump

administration. it was, mike pompeo who was then, cia director who sort of issued this weird fatwire type thing against wikileaks. and julian, in 2017 when he became, cia director. and that's where we saw the sort of politicisation and the real political motivation behind this prosecution emerge. it was pushed by mike pompeo. and when he went into the state department and eventually when juuan department and eventually when julian was taken from the ecuadorian embassy in 2019 and charged with this unprecedented , charged with this unprecedented, espionage act prosecution. i mean, what you're seeing here is the us, using its secrecy laws to reach into the united kingdom and grab people that they don't like. what what what's been published . i think it's really, published. i think it's really, really an attack on the sovereignty of the united kingdom, an attack on free speech and journalists in the united kingdom. >> i've been very surprised, actually, at the lack of coverage story generally

coverage of this story generally in mainstream media. are you in the mainstream media. are you surprised that free speech campaigners rallying campaigners aren't rallying behind this, because you would have thought that even the us government would quite government would be quite grateful elements within grateful when elements within their intelligence services or military services are being exposed for doing things that are wrong, so that improvements can be made. >> well, that's how western democracies are supposed to work, but, you know, we see more and more these institutions trying to cover up their wrongdoing , their own crimes, wrongdoing, their own crimes, and that's become pretty prevalent these days. but i think we have seen quite a bit of support from the uk press, you know, slowly , slowly, you know, slowly, slowly, they've been coming around to this idea that this could actually affect them. it could affect, you know, what they want to publish. if they want to pubush to publish. if they want to publish national security journalism , particularly with journalism, particularly with one of, their closest allies in the united states, we have seen

in australia, we've seen the australian government , in australia, we've seen the australian government, a resolution pass, in the, in the parliament here with over two thirds of the parliament calling on the uk and the us, to bring this to a close , recently the this to a close, recently the german chancellor, called on the united kingdom not to extradite, juuan united kingdom not to extradite, julian assange. so there is quite a bit of build up, around the world of support, and i think we're going to see more and more of that , as people get and more of that, as people get to know what this is about and how this threatens, you know, their right to know what their government doing with their government is doing with their tax dollars. >> that's very interesting that you the there, you mentioned the press there, because really, this case is largely freedom the largely about freedom of the press freedom to report. i press and freedom to report. i believe government believe the us government has acknowledged couldn't acknowledged that they couldn't really on this, really go all out on this, because going to because if they're going to prosecute assange prosecute julian assange and wikileaks, have to wikileaks, they'd also have to prosecute for prosecute the guardian. for instance, newspaper , who instance, the uk newspaper, who also lot of the also published a lot of the materials were leaked also published a lot of the m'thisals were leaked also published a lot of the m'this time. were leaked also published a lot of the m'this time. so were leaked also published a lot of the m'this time. so really, re leaked also published a lot of the m'this time. so really, isn'taked at this time. so really, isn't this a question press this a question of press freedom? foremost ?

freedom? first and foremost? >> yeah, that's exactly right. and in in the hearing back in february, the high court judges actually put to the prosecution, would this mean under this extradition, would this mean that you could extradite any journalist, from the united kingdom for publishing classified material or secrets that you don't want exposed ? and that you don't want exposed? and the prosecution actually had to answer, yes, this this would be answer, yes, this this would be a precedent, that would apply to any journalist or any publisher, in the united kingdom. so it is really all about press freedom, all about , investigative all about, investigative journalism, and i think what the courts have now asked for, these , you know, so—called assurances, i call them diplomatic notes because , diplomatic notes because, they're just, you know, a political note from the from the us, political note from the from the us, doj to the political note from the from the us, doj to the uk. it's not actually , able to be enforced actually, able to be enforced once julian is on us soil, but it would be very interesting if,

us, you know, first amendment free speech laws were actually able to be applied to everyone in the uk. i can't see the us making that sort of assurance. >> do you feel as a family member, this is your brother that we're talking about? do you feel relief that the feel a sense of relief that the british is seeking british government is seeking these , or the these assurances, or the judiciary, rather, is seeking these that at least these assurances that at least they go for death they can't go for the death penalty case? i mean, penalty in this case? i mean, this must be a relief for this this must be a relief for you family . you and your family. >> yeah, it's certainly is. but we have mixed feelings about this, this judgement. there are points that the uk judges refuse to allow, in this appeal . and to allow, in this appeal. and those points we believed were very significant , those were very significant, those were regarding the plots. by the then pompeo cia plots to kidnap julian, from the ecuadorian embassy there was even a sketch to assassinate julian that was drawn up within the cia. and that was reported , in yahoo

that was reported, in yahoo news, there were three washington, dc reporters who had 30 former and current, intelligence sources confirmed those plots existed, and the judges wouldn't allow that, which i thought was very, very peculiar. you know, because that's a british law had essentially been broken there with these murder attempts on juuan with these murder attempts on julian assange when he was in the ecuadorian embassy in london, but we are relieved that juuan london, but we are relieved that julian has not been extradited today or this week, but, you have to look into the future. now, if the us does provide these assurances, then his extradition would become imminent, and at the magistrates level, they actually rejected this extradition , because of the this extradition, because of the expert witness testimony that said if julian were to be extradited, it would ultimately lead to his death due to the prison conditions and the support that he would get there, he'd be kept, in total isolation , no communication with the outside world. in a very harsh,

state run prison. you know, we've all seen shawshank redemption. we know what us prisons are like , and they're prisons are like, and they're horrible, dark places, and even worse for national security, cases. cgses. >> cases. >> i presume you've been in touch with your brother over this period . how is he faring in this period. how is he faring in all of this? because it must be an awful psychological stress, not knowing what the outcome is going be. going to be. >> yeah. that's right, andrew. and it's been now five years that he's been held in belmarsh prison, he spends most of his time in a two by three metre cell, this endless , not knowing cell, this endless, not knowing of, if he's going to be extradited or not, is wearing him down. it's wearing him down physically. mentally, he's, you know, i saw him at the end of the month, and, you know, he's he's 52, and he he looks he looks like he's almost 60 to me, that's the sort of, speeding up

of the ageing process and the sort of physical how how the physical, degradation represents itself, physically and sitting across from him, it's , you know, across from him, it's, you know, very scary, very worrying. as his brother, you know, it's particularly when you leave the jail and there's nothing you can do to help him other than advocate for him publicly, and work on campaign. he's work on this campaign. but he's hanging in there, he's still got a fighting spirit. and i think it's, all the people he knows are out there fighting for him, and advocating for him that keep him the inside. him going on the inside. >> shipton, >> well, gabriel shipton, i really appreciate you coming on to this thank to talk about this case. thank you very indeed. cheers. you very much indeed. cheers. andrew and next up on free speech nation , we're going to be speech nation, we're going to be speaking to the comedian and youtuber count dankula, who had who has first hand experience of hate crime laws after being prosecuted for uploading a video of a dog doing a nazi salute. don't go anywhere.

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. we've been talking a lot about hate crime tonight. and the new scottish hate crime law that is coming in on april the april coming in on april the 1st april fools talk now to fools day. so let's talk now to someone who has actually been prosecuted for hate crime in the past. comedian and youtuber marcus meechan, who goes under the name count dankula, was convicted of a hate crime after posting a video of a dog he taught to perform a nazi salute for a joke. there's the dog buddha , and we and marcus joins buddha, and we and marcus joins me now. marcus you were, found guilty in a court of law. you were fined £800. but it was a joke, wasn't it? >> yeah, it was 100% a joke like that. like that was that. like anyone that was watching the video would be able to tell that like that was clearly the intention. i even

gave context at the start gave the context at the start of the video explaining why i did what i did. but you know that didn't really help me much in court. >> and can you tell us what happened? when did you first hear and when did hear about this, and when did the up? well, i was the police turn up? well, i was in iceland at the time when the video started blowing up, so i really didn't know what was going on because i wasn't connected any wi—fi or connected to any wi—fi or anything . so that was that was anything. so that was that was fun to, finally connect to wi—fi and have my phone explode, but it about , i and have my phone explode, but it about, i think it was it was about, i think it was maybe about four days after i was the uk the was back in the uk that the police and knocked police came and knocked on my door me took me door and arrested me and took me away over joke that i made. away over a joke that i made. >> so my understanding of this, marcus, is that hadn't marcus, is that there hadn't been complaints that the been any complaints that the police had actually just tried to find someone who was offended by this video. is that correct . by this video. is that correct. >> yeah. they actually had to go out and find someone. as far as i was aware, no one actually

complained. it'sjust i was aware, no one actually complained. it's just the i was aware, no one actually complained. it'sjust the media complained. it's just the media made it any that big of a deal that the police and maybe the police felt it necessary to act or something. i'm sure, but or something. i'm not sure, but it's a if the media it's a case of if the media hadnt it's a case of if the media hadn't it such a deal, hadn't made it such a big deal, i probably wouldn't been i probably wouldn't have been arrested. interesting to >> yes, but it's interesting to me were prosecuted me that you were prosecuted under this, the communications act, section 107 of the communications act that says that you can't say you can't post anything grossly offensive. i wasn't there in the courtroom. you were there in the courtroom. can you tell me, did they make a convincing case that what you had the video you had had said, the video you had made, in had said, the video you had madegrossly in had said, the video you had madegrossly offensive? in had said, the video you had ma no,ossly offensive? in had said, the video you had ma no, they offensive? in had said, the video you had ma no, they didn'tive? in had said, the video you had ma no, they didn'tive? i|good >> no, they didn't make a good case. but i mean, i would say that, wouldn't they? but that, though, wouldn't they? but no, didn't really make no, they didn't really make a good the prosecutor good case. the prosecutor was trying all the way good case. the prosecutor was trying it, all the way good case. the prosecutor was trying it, present all the way good case. the prosecutor was trying it, present all thoughts through it, present the thoughts that head, even that were in my head, even though clearly stated my though i clearly stated my thoughts start thoughts at the start of the video . the prosecutor was video. the prosecutor was saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, this wants kill millions this man wants to kill millions of decided of people. and he decided to convey message an convey that message using an ugly apparently ugly dog. apparently, apparently , i couldn't come up with anything my master anything better for my master plans the fourth

plans of building the fourth reich. so yeah, and they even though he was just assuming the thoughts that were in my head, the judge just took that verbatim, even basically verbatim, even though basically the british intelligence went through all my electronic devices , they went through devices, they went through everything and found no evidence whatsoever of any links to far right groups or far right beliefs or anything. but, you know, of that i was know, none of that helped. i was still being a big still convicted for being a big bad nazi, but you can understand that, know, come from that, you know, if you come from a jewish heritage and you lost relatives holocaust , that relatives in the holocaust, that a joke around these kind of themes might be upsetting. >> i mean, would that be fair >> i mean, would that be a fair thing to say? >> yeah. completely fine. >> oh, yeah. completely fine. yeah. no going enjoy yeah. no one's going to enjoy every single joke that's told. there are jokes out there that annoy me and i don't like them. you know, i find them quite offensive, but i'm trying to offensive, but i'm not trying to get thrown for get anybody thrown in prison for that. of go, well, that. i just sort of go, well, that. i just sort of go, well, that very nice joke. that wasn't a very nice joke. and then i get with my day and then i get on with my day because now. because i'm an adult now. >> marcus, i want to ask you about this because you're in the middle of this. you know, you're you're living scotland you're still living in scotland

as crime law is as this new hate crime law is coming in, do you fear i mean, i've seen a lot of your youtube material. you know, you can be quite near the knuckle, quite salty. that they salty. do you fear that they might you again? might come after you again? something to do with the parakeet. time, no, parakeet. maybe this time, no, i've. this horse i've. i've wrote this horse before, . like if they if before, like. like if they if they come after me again, like, i kind of know what to do, and i've, you know, i've still got my lawyer and stuff like that on standby , but the thing that is standby, but the thing that is a little bit concerning is your intent, context doesn't intent, and the context doesn't matter. most matter. that's what's most worrying, because, i mean, you're i've you're a comedian yourself. i've seen saying seen you on stage saying outrageous things, and because i know you personally, i know that you don't believe any of the things you're saying. you're being funny because you're a comedian. you don't actually mean the stuff that you're saying but even mean the stuff that you're saying the but even mean the stuff that you're saying the public but even mean the stuff that you're saying the public bu�*thatn though the public know that apparently a judges can't figure that part out. >> the snp is saying and >> but but the snp is saying and the police are saying they're >> but but the snp is saying and the going are saying they're >> but but the snp is saying and the going toe saying they're >> but but the snp is saying and the going to target|g they're >> but but the snp is saying and the going to target comedians , not going to target comedians, they're not going to target actors or anything actors or performers or anything like that. but do you do you trust they said trust that they also said they weren't go afterjokes weren't going to go afterjokes with the original legislation?

>> you know, section one, two, seven of the communications act. they jokes are they says, oh, no, jokes are fine. back then fine. they said that back then that not the case. that obviously was not the case. no, i, i fully believe they're going go after any type going to go after any type of artist , any type of, you know, artist, any type of, you know, pubuc artist, any type of, you know, public play performance or anything. street performers like onune anything. street performers like online comedians, youtube channels, tweets and everything. i mean, you're already getting people activists online people leftist activists online lined up, counting down the day till they get to grass. everybody in like they'll they're excited about it. and they're excited about it. and they even have humza yousaf saying, oh, please don't use it to make vexatious complaints. even though he's of even though he's guilty of making complaints making vexatious complaints himself . himself. >> yeah, it's tricky, isn't it, because you can because they're saying you can complain , so there's complain anonymously, so there's not to any not going to be any ramifications and ramifications there. and they're also pledging to investigate every single complaint, the idea that trusting that they're just trusting activists not to behave vexatiously does seem kind of bizarre , doesn't it? but do bizarre, doesn't it? but why do the scottish put up with the scottish people put up with it, there come it, you know, doesn't there come a point where the snp's excesses, they're authoritarian instincts, just makes the electorate turn away? >> it's because of the three

things that, you know, scottish people are raised with. you know, say please and thank you, don't get into a stranger's car. the are evil and the tories are bad and evil and you oppose them in every, the tories are bad and evil and you mannerpose them in every, the tories are bad and evil and you manner that them in every, the tories are bad and evil and you manner that youn in every, the tories are bad and evil and you manner that you possiblyy, every manner that you possibly can. so even if you know the right proposes something right wing proposes something goodin right wing proposes something good in scotland, it's bad and we hate it and we don't like it. we hate things like freedom and stuff like that. apparently you know, despite, you know, i mean, braveheart would kind of make up most of the world think that we loved freedom, but not apparently not. fine apparently not. we were fine enough the english, enough to take on the english, but where but hearty words is where we draw the line. >> saw that film where >> yeah, i saw that film where he freedom! didn't >> yeah, i saw that film where he down freedom! didn't >> yeah, i saw that film where he down with om! didn't >> yeah, i saw that film where he down with hate didn't >> yeah, i saw that film where he down with hate speech,t >> yeah, i saw that film where he down with hate speech, did shout down with hate speech, did he? you know, didn't quite work that way. okay, so are you confident that that after confident that that that after april things will go april the 1st, things will go on as do you think that as normal? do you think that there's any way that maybe this has just been overblown? people keep saying to me, you're making a mountain out of a molehill. do you think that's possible? that maybe right maybe things will be all right in end? in the end? >> no, the exact same thing

>> no, no. the exact same thing happened to me. section one, two, seven. like when you first introduce a law, you make sure you apply it to like, the real bad guys. so they going bad guys. so they were going after white after like the full on white nationalists, ones nationalists, you know, the ones that to public that are palatable to the public where the average person on the street of course street would go, oh, of course that and then that guy got arrested. and then everyone to support the everyone starts to support the law. happen law. more convictions happen under precedents. under it, which sets precedents. and is nice under it, which sets precedents. and strong, is nice under it, which sets precedents. and strong, know, is nice under it, which sets precedents. and strong, know, within,a and strong, you know, within, you know, the scottish legislation, that's when they flick right, flick the switch and go right, let's going let's start going after the government dissidents now, okay. >> well, we'll see what happens, where can people find more of your material, on your problematic material, on youtube? under count dankula, i'm not recommending my twitter because i behaved very badly on twitter, not to twitter, so i'm not going to inflict that on upon more people. you find people. but yeah, you can find me youtube under account. dankula. >> fantastic. marcus meakin, thanks so much forjoining me. thanks, andrew. so next on free speech nation , david quinn is speech nation, david quinn is going to be here to tell us about the progress of proposed hate crime laws over in ireland. and plus, we're going to be going through our social sensations of the week and some unfiltered dilemmas. don't go

anywhere.

>> welcome back to free speech nation. >> now, scotland is not the only place where laws to tackle hate crime are on the agenda. over in ireland, the incitement to violence or hatred and hate offences make offences bill could make expression or possession of content or even ideas which are deemed hateful, illegal under the new law. so here to give us the new law. so here to give us the latest on this is the columnist sunday columnist at the sunday independent, quinn . david, independent, david quinn. david, welcome back the show. always independent, david quinn. david, wpleasure ack the show. always independent, david quinn. david, wpleasure aci

a quasi marriage status. now, the government and the media and the government and the media and the political establishment were basically all in favour and unexpected of the pass handsomely. but both were defeated huge, huge margins. defeated by huge, huge margins. and this has been a huge setback for politically correct for kind of politically correct opinion in this country. and so as of that , there's as a result of that, there's been a kind of major stocktake on whether , you know, to use the on whether, you know, to use the terms, the woke agenda has been going too far. and one of the kind of signature pieces of that agendais kind of signature pieces of that agenda is , of course, the hate agenda is, of course, the hate speech that just speech legislation that you just refer there. and now they're refer to there. and now they're having about having second thoughts about it. this is not to say the thing will never, ever be passed, but i think they seem to be putting it on ice and they seem to be considering amendments water considering amendments to water down. again, a down. and this is again, as a result of these two result of these of these two referendums. result of these of these two refethat's ns. result of these of these two refethat'sns. interesting that >> that's very interesting that the had this the referendums have had this impact. of course, you're impact. and of course, you're about a new shirt about to get a new t shirt as well, aren't you? do you think that this will any of that this will make any kind of difference , well, i think it difference, well, i think it will. so a previoust difference, well, i think it will. so a previous t shirt was quite well known. was that, leo varadkar. so he very

varadkar. and so he very dramatically announced that he's stepping taoiseach. stepping down as taoiseach. and that's the next that's to happen in the next couple then couple of weeks. and then this fellow, come fellow, simon harris is to come in , this was of like in now, this was kind of like what party that what the tory party does that they a new leader, a new they elect a new leader, a new prime minister and don't consult the there's no the public. and there's been no election. and there's a fair amount of outcry about this. so simon harris was kind of the one man who actually wanted be man who actually wanted to be t shirt ruling fine shirt within the ruling fine gael party. and so he's coming along now. he's very much a fella who blows with the wind , fella who blows with the wind, so when we passed the abortion law six years ago, he was absolutely, in favour of law six years ago, he was absolbut y, in favour of law six years ago, he was absolbut y, he in favour of law six years ago, he was absolbuty, he sees'our of law six years ago, he was absolbuty, he sees that)f law six years ago, he was absolbut y, he sees that the that, but now he sees that the political beginning to political winds are beginning to shift a bit. you see, i think what would happen in what happened would happen in that six ago what happened would happen in thewhat six ago what happened would happen in thewhat you six ago what happened would happen in thewhat you might ago what happened would happen in thewhat you might call ago what happened would happen in thewhat you might call the 30 is. what you might call the progressive side decided that they a license to do they now had a license to do absolutely anything they liked without any opposition whatsoever , ever. and they just whatsoever, ever. and they just kept and kept pressing and pressing and pressing. and i think at a certain beginning certain point, it was beginning to nuts. we to drive the public nuts. so we were full out on trans were going full out on the trans agenda. hate agenda. then we had this hate speech law , and i think people speech law, and i think people were tired were kind of getting a bit tired of people also quite of it. people are also quite

anti—government in anti—government now, as in britain, gael britain, because fine gael has been power with some party or been in power with some party or other, because it's a coalition government like government since 2011, just like in people get in britain. and people just get sick of particular faces and they got sick of this government. so the referendums a few weeks ago, there was two things going on anti—government plus anti woke plus kind of anti the woke agenda i think agenda going too far. so i think simon harris is kind of going to reflect to some degree the new pubuc reflect to some degree the new public mood has been revealed. >> well that's very interesting because speaking to maria because i was speaking to maria stein on this show a couple of weeks she making weeks ago, and she was making the lot of the the point that a lot of the major are just major political parties are just in these issues. in lockstep over these issues. and media and certainly the dublin media scene, the scene, shall we say, the journalistic class, also journalistic class, are also seemingly . there seemingly in lockstep. there aren't many dissident voices on this. the this. given that that is the case, the problems case, do you think the problems with the hate speech legislation are to the are getting out there to the general public? are people waking the problems that waking up to the problems that are contained therein? are that are contained therein? >> think are . and >> yes, i think some are. and this is what's really interesting is so a few months ago , sinn fein, which is the ago, sinn fein, which is the major opposition party in the country, they they voted in favour the as pass favour of the bill as a pass

through equivalent of the through our equivalent of the house commons, which is the house of commons, which is the doll. it was 14 doll. and i think it was only 14 out of the voted against it out of the tds voted against it and over 100 voted in favour of it, including again all the main parties, sinn fein and parties, including sinn fein and now fein, have they now sinn fein, have said they don't the bill, they don't don't like the bill, they don't think it's fit for purpose and they have withdrawn their support for it. so that's really interesting. and also after the referendums were defeated, you have some kind older have some of the kind of older members likes fianna members of the likes of fianna fail, which is also in government, gael government, and the fine gael party out and saying that party coming out and saying that the hate speech law needs to be pulled back because the public don't want it anymore. in fact, the know, never the public, you know, they never wanted basically the way wanted it. so basically the way ireland think other ireland and i think some other western are kind of western countries are kind of governed, government listens governed, the government listens to ngos more than they listen to the public. and the ngos were fully behind these referendums, and and they fail so and they and they fail so spectacularly that i think it's weakened the power of the ngos by proving, actually, these ngos are basically astroturf campaigns that don't have much in the way of public support at all. >> it's fascinating stuff. this

seems to be story our seems to be the story of our time, that disparity between what and what the electorate wants and what the electorate wants and what class wants. what the political class wants. but david, it's always a pleasure talk to you. please pleasure to talk to you. please do come to the show again. pleasure to talk to you. please do conyou to the show again. pleasure to talk to you. please do conyou veryo the show again. pleasure to talk to you. please do conyou very much. how again. pleasure to talk to you. please do conyou very much. thank|ain. pleasure to talk to you. please do conyou very much. thank you. thank you very much. thank you. so it's time for social sensations. that's the part of the show where we delve into what's viral this the show where we delve into what' on viral this the show where we delve into what' on media. l this the show where we delve into what' on media. and; the show where we delve into what' on media. and first week on social media. and first up, here's a woman, a video of a woman deodorant woman rather promoting deodorant wipes. look . wipes. let's have a look. >> let me tell you what i do. it's a little hygiene hack . my it's a little hygiene hack. my friend told me about these cloths get they were cloths from get dirty. they were originally formulated for firefighters to remove carcinogens skin , carcinogens off their skin, which means these wipes don't play which means these wipes don't play games like other wipes on the market. they are antibacterial and actually lift the market. they are antiiremove. and actually lift the market. they are antiiremove sweat|ctually lift the market. they are antiiremove sweat ,tually lift the market. they are antiiremove sweat , dirtly lift the market. they are antiiremove sweat, dirt andt and remove sweat, dirt and odours, making these the one and only refresh. shower on only total refresh. shower on the go solution. after you use these, your skin will have a soapy clean smell . soapy clean smell. >> so we have to point out that the person in the video is based on a real person, but whole on a real person, but the whole video generated video was generated by artificial intelligence . artificial intelligence. everything that was said, the

expressions, the way it is delivered . i'm terrified. delivered. i'm terrified. >> i'm confused. >> i'm confused. >> yeah. i mean, it's all gibberish, right? >> but the fact that a computer just invented of that and just invented all of that and created that. yes >> so it's not real. you can't. i thought this was some kind of attack on the boat community. for a minute, i thought it was a joke showers. joke about showers. >> no. >> no, no, no. >> going to promote >> so she's not going to promote thisit's not thing. fake. >> it's not a real thing. fake. it's fake. oh my goodness. >> also written created goodness. >> computers. ritten created by computers. >> also. great news for anybody that's done something. they don't want to be real because now they can say that. >> they can it's deep fake. >> this is the problem deep >> this is the problem with deep fake it? going >> this is the problem with deep faiit's it? going >> this is the problem with deep faiit's going it? going >> this is the problem with deep faiit's going to it? going >> this is the problem with deep faiit's going to it? the going >> this is the problem with deep faiit's going to it? the case; to it's going to be the case that everyone's to that that everyone's going to start making these of start making these videos of celebrities start making these videos of celebrthings. awful things. >> w- >> well, they did with greta thunberg, >> well, they did with greta thunberwhen it was. >> yes. when it was. >> yes. when it was. >> was that how dare you? >> was that how dare you? >> thing was that no no no no. oh i thought no, that was real. no, that was real. okay >> to do with female >> no it was to do with female aids, catch drift . aids, if you catch my drift. >> okay. let's not go too specific. >> yes . she was specific. >> yes. she was just urging people to stop using batteries on these devices because the batteries were bad. >> okay, well, let's move on.

but good about this but the good thing about this is, bruce, you know, when those videos, resurface. videos, if you do resurface. yes. it was i, i, i, yes. just say it was i, i, i, i there we go. we've got our excuses in. up a wildlife excuses in. next up a wildlife charity what thought charity took in what it thought to be a baby hedgehog. and it was only when said hedgehog did not eat his food that the rescue staff it was a bobble staff realised it was a bobble hat. let's look . hat. let's have a look. >> you can see how they got it wrong. >> it looks like a hedgehog to me. i think it's got a nose and everything. >> yeah, it didn't eat the food. no, that was, taken by a member of staff at the lower moss nature reserve and wildlife hospital after the bobble hat was brought in by a well meaning rescuer. i love that. >> i mean, you check for a pulse, don't you? >> you would think. >> you would think. >> yeah, but was that just the bobble of the hat or the whole heart? it was just the just bubble. >> a bubble. >> a bubble. >> how stupid are these people? oh, seriously, check for pulse i >> -- >> check for a spike? yeah. yeah, i mean, i don't yeah, exactly. i mean, i don't know what more you can say about that monumental stupidity. >> well, exactly. >> well, exactly. >> it's sweet that

>> yeah, it's very sweet that they try . they try. >> it is very sweet. okay, well, at they didn't and at least they didn't try and give mouth mouth. at least they didn't try and give know? mouth mouth. at least they didn't try and give know? i mouth mouth. at least they didn't try and giveknow? i mean, th mouth. at least they didn't try and give know? i mean, anyway, uth. at least they didn't try and give know? i mean, anyway, let's you know? i mean, anyway, let's move the show move on to the part of the show where about your where we talk about your unfiltered dilemmas. you're very, kind in all unfiltered dilemmas. you're ve your kind in all unfiltered dilemmas. you're veyour kind problemsall unfiltered dilemmas. you're ve your kind problems in of your personal problems in the hope will them. hope that we will solve them. bruce this. so bruce is very good at this. so let's what happens. let's let's see what happens. the comes the first dilemma comes in from harriet. says, i'm 27 harriet. harriet says, i'm 27 and mum hasn't bought me an and my mum hasn't bought me an easter egg for the first time this because i'm too old. i this year because i'm too old. i wouldn't mind if she gave me money i money instead, but i got nothing. being ungrateful? nothing. am i being ungrateful? >> you think? >> yes. do you think? yes. >> yes. do you think? yes. >> just gets point >> so it just gets to a point with easter where you shouldn't get but the thing she wants money >> but the thing she wants money now. like what are you doing >> but the thing she wants money now. your what are you doing >> but the thing she wants money now. your own are you doing >> but the thing she wants money now. your own money,| doing >> but the thing she wants money now. your own money, harriet? with your own money, harriet? yeah do you not have a job? >> bruce very harsh. >> bruce is very harsh. >> bruce is very harsh. >> lying around >> are you just lying around waiting people to buy your waiting for people to buy your confectionery that? >> your that? >> your parents at that >> surely your parents at that point shouldn't buying point shouldn't be buying you easter eggs? >> should they be? >> should they be? >> won't fat >> kind of. they won't be fat shaming you. >> i think what's >> and i think that's what's going think it's fat >> oh, you think it's fat shaming for you, shaming enough eggs for you, harriet? what is? no. >> well, look, we don't know what looks so, what harriet looks like, so, you know, as know, you are perfect just as you are. >> harriet. >> harriet. >> don't worry about what the

evil, nasty cressida says. let's move on to another dilemma from jasmine. jasmine and my jasmine. jasmine says me and my colleagues were playing snog, marry, picked marry, avoid. i picked a particular colleague to avoid and he took it very personally. he hasn't spoken to me for over a week now. do i apologise or is he being too sensitive? >> bruce i think jasmine's the one with the problem here. really? yeah, and i think she should apologise , guys. should apologise, guys. >> but surely if you're playing the choose the game, you have to choose someone. you? someone. don't you? >> yeah, but then be mindful of who because must who you choose because you must have of group who you choose because you must hav she's behaved appallingly and she . she should be punished. >> okay, that's brutal >> okay, that's a brutal response, annie. >> it with >> you're supposed to do it with celebrities, aren't you? >> you're supposed say ant celebrities, aren't you? >> �*dec'e supposed say ant celebrities, aren't you? >> �*dec and pposed say ant celebrities, aren't you? >> �*dec and alaned say ant celebrities, aren't you? >> �*dec and alan titchmarsht celebrities, aren't you? >> �*dec and alan titchmarsh go and dec and alan titchmarsh go or something like that. really? >> all three? all three? absolutely. >> that's where you're going >> so that's where you're going wrong there. you should have done celebrities. so to done it with celebrities. so to speak. let's have a quick dilemma every month dilemma from peter. every month or my friend and i go out for or so my friend and i go out for

a the past few times a drink. the past few times i've been he always been paid and he always says that me but that he will send me half, but never we only have never does. we usually only have one but it's all one pint each, but it's all starting i'm due starting to add up. i'm due to see again week, but i see him again this week, but i really pay. do see him again this week, but i r> i know i've been there. >> yes. >> yes. >> yeah. >> yes. >> ieah. >> yes. >> i think you just say i don't have can't come have any money. i can't come out. as simple as that. out. oh, it's as simple as that. yeah, out. oh, it's as simple as that. yeawhat you think. out. oh, it's as simple as that. yeaiihat you think. out. oh, it's as simple as that. yeai think you think. out. oh, it's as simple as that. yeai think hints think. out. oh, it's as simple as that. yeai think hints never work. no. >> i think hints never work. no. he's got cut he's just got to cut the friendship and admit life is lonely. >> e“- en— w brutal advice from >> wow. very brutal advice from both of our panellists tonight. >> but the thing is, how much is a pint? >> it's pretty expensive these days. this been days. bruce. look, this has been our special. thanks our hate speech. special. thanks so joining us for free so much for joining us for free speech nation. this was the week, of course, when the scottish prepared scottish government prepared to launch on free launch an assault on free speech, peter pan was handed speech, and peter pan was handed a due to a trigger warning due to examples white supremacy. examples of white supremacy. apparently, to my panel, apparently, thanks to my panel, bruce devlin and cressida wetton, of my wetton, and to all of my brilliant guests this evening. and way, if want and by the way, if you want to join live the studio, be

join us live in the studio, be part our beautiful part of our rather beautiful studio audience. can do studio audience. you can do that. to sro that. just go to sro audiences.com. that website's on the screen right now. stay tuned. mark dolan's coming up next. don't forget, headliners is on every night at 11:00. that's the late night paper preview show where comedians take you through the next day's top news stories. thanks ever so much for watching free speech nation. you week. nation. i'll see you next week. >> that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers , sponsors of boxt boilers, sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> hello. welcome to your latest gb news weather here. it's been fairly sunny across the northern half of the uk. fairly sunny across the northern half of the uk . we've seen half of the uk. we've seen increasing cloud in the south and we're going to see further rain push in over the next few hours. looking the bigger hours. but looking at the bigger picture , low pressure dominates picture, low pressure dominates at the moment. it does mean further showers and rain is on the some heavy

the way and we've got some heavy rain evening across rain this evening across southern of england and southern parts of england and this pushing slowly northwards into the midlands and wales as we head into the early hours. thicker cloud and rain also pushing in from the north sea to affect northeast england generally a little drier across scotland. northern ireland here some clear spells and for most temperatures remaining above freezing. so it's a mixed start to monday. we've got cloud and outbreaks of rain across this central swathe of the uk, some brighter skies to the north of it and to the south. but it's to the south where we'll see some heavy showers developing as we move through into the afternoon. some hail, some thunder in there. some there. we could see some local disruption, the cloud there. we could see some local disr| rain n, the cloud there. we could see some local disr| rain ,, the cloud there. we could see some local disr|rain , particularly the cloud there. we could see some local disr| rain , particularly northernd and rain, particularly northern england, southern scotland, 9 or 10 degrees in the best any 10 degrees in the best of any sunny this sunny spells either side of this up to around 14 or 15 degrees for tuesday. a mixed picture. we'll have sunny spells and scattered showers across much of the country. however, low cloud rain and drizzle will affect parts of scotland. then later on in day , further wet and

in the day, further wet and windy weather starts moving into the remains the southwest. it remains unsettled through into wednesday and thursday, further rain and thursday, with further rain at times. temperatures around average . average. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news

news. >> it's 9:00. this is mark dolan tonight on gb news with me. stephen allen, in my big opinion , there's a problem in this country, and it smells like. you know what? because it is. you know what? because it is. you know what? because it is. you know what? and our waterways are absolutely . in the absolutely full of it. in the big story, as the home secretary, cleverly warns secretary, james cleverly warns against allowing asylum seekers to exploit system. and with to exploit the system. and with churches empty this easter, as britain lost faith with the church. plus, as the met police tells a jewish woman at a palestine march that the displays of a swastika need to

be taken into context . it's the be taken into context. it's the met police, fit for purpose and in my take, at ten, at a time when the country seems to be full of protests, is now this the new normal ? two hours of big the new normal? two hours of big opinion, big debate and big entertainment, and i'll see you after the news with tatiana sanchez. >> steve. thank you. the top stories this hour. king charles has made his first significant pubuc has made his first significant public appearance since his cancer diagnosis. joined by the queen, he smiled and waved as he left an easter sunday service at saint george's chapel in windsor and went on to greet crowds. a member of the public told the king to keep going strong, and others said he looked well. the prince and princess of wales missed the service as catherine continues her cancer treatment