of lords debates the house of lords debates the so—called biggest stain on our justice system. ip sentences now banned but still applying to thousands of people. is it time to change that? and do you remember the gb news people forum? your chance to ask our prime minister questions? we'll get this. it's been found to be in breach of ofcom rules. what on earth is going on? also, there's a lot i want to squeeze in, but i also want to ask what do you think feminism has failed us females as ? for all of that us females as? for all of that to come and more. but before we get stuck in, let's cross live for tonight's latest news headunes for tonight's latest news headlines as. >> hi there. it's a minute past six. i'm aaron armstrong in the gb newsroom. the prime minister has offered an unequivocal apology to victims of the infected blood scandal, describing it as a day of shame

for the british state. the inquiry found a subtle, pervasive and chilling cover up from those in positions of trust and power, including the deliberate destruction of documents by government officials . the final report officials. the final report concluded patients were knowingly exposed to unacceptable risks, and the scandal could have largely been avoided. more than 30,000 people were infected with hiv and hepatitis c over more than 20 years because of contaminated blood products and transfusions . blood products and transfusions. >> this is a day of shame for the british state. today's report shows a decades long moral failure at the heart of our national life. from the national health service to the civil service, to ministers in successive governments, at every level , the people and level, the people and institutions in which we place our trust failed in the most harrowing and devastating way. they failed the victims and their families, and they failed this country . this country. >> well, victims say they've been waiting decades for their

voices to be heard . voices to be heard. >> sometimes we felt like we were shouting into the wind dunng were shouting into the wind during these 40 years when we told people they didn't believe us, they said this wouldn't happenin us, they said this wouldn't happen in the uk , but today happen in the uk, but today proves that it can happen in the uk. and it did happen in the uk and i just feel validated and vindicated . vindicated. >> and i think everybody today has read of the disasters that unfolded and, and sir brian has been very thorough and has not minced his words. >> this was a systemic this was by government, by civil servants and by health care professionals. i think that really rocks what we think of as society and really challenges the fact that the trust that we put in people to look after us, to do their best and protect us, none of that can we take for granted anymore. >> the parents of a baby girl say they will never forgive the callousness of a nursery worker who's been convicted of manslaughter. 37 year old kate roughley placed a nine month old

genevieve meehan face down on a beanbag for an hour and a half while working at tiny tots nursery in cheadle hulme in may 2022. colleagues and paramedics tried to revive the baby, but she was declared dead later that day. roughley has been remanded in custody and is due to be sentenced later this week . sentenced later this week. juuan sentenced later this week. julian assange has won a legal bid to bring an appeal against his extradition to the united states, the high court has ruled that us assurances over his case were unsatisfactory , and he were unsatisfactory, and he would get a full appeal hearing. the wikileaks founder faces prosecution in the united states over an alleged conspiracy to obtain and disclose national defence information, after the publication of hundreds of thousands of leaked documents relating to the wars in afghanistan and iraq. mr assange's wife is calling on the us to drop what she says is a shameful case. >> i think the decision today should send a signal to the biden administration to look very carefully at this case, which over 40 us law professors

have written to the administration and said that this case is an existential threat to the first amendment, and that should be taken very seriously . we are. and what is seriously. we are. and what is the point in pursuing this at this stage? it is just harm to everyone. >> iran has confirmed the country's president, ebrahim raisi, and his foreign minister were killed in a helicopter crash yesterday. footage obtained by iranian media shows the crash site on a mountainside. a difficult weather conditions hampered efforts by search teams. the wreckage was eventually located in the east azerbaijan province . in the east azerbaijan province. iran's supreme leader has declared five days of national mourning. an election for a new president is due to take place in the next 50 days. a new coin, marking 80 years since the d—day landings has been unveiled by the royal mint. to mark the release to sand, artists have recreated the design on gold beach. that's where troops landed in 1944. it's set 35m in

diameter and took 5.5 hours to create. the design of the tail side. the reverse side of the £0.50 coin has been revealed ahead of the anniversary on the 6th of june. for the latest on all of our stories, you can sign up to gb news alerts. the qr codes on your screen. the details are also on our website. now it's back over to . michelle. now it's back over to. michelle. >> thank you very much for that. i'm michelle dewberry and i'm keeping you company till 7:00 tonight. you know, i listen to those bulletins with interest, and i often sit there and think things can't get any more bizarre or worse. and you listen to that story there about that lady that just had that conviction of what she did. strapping a child down like that to a beanbag in a nursery. what on earth is wrong with some people in our society? ladies and gents, i absolutely despair. i really do. anyway, i'm with you till 7:00 tonight alongside me, my panel , the director of me, my panel, the director of the academy of ideas, baroness

claire fox , and the co—founder claire fox, and the co—founder of novara media, aaron bastani . of novara media, aaron bastani. good evening to both of you. i also noticed in the bulletins that d—day coin. will you be collecting one? aaron? >> d—day coin. good old pompey . >> d—day coin. good old pompey. no, i hadn't thought about it, but i'm a father now, so i'll probably get into rather boring things like coin collecting and stamp collecting . stamp collecting. >> i've never collected a coin. i don't mind acknowledging that d—day was important historically. >> are you guys out there ? are >> are you guys out there? are you guys out there itching for your d—day coins? i'm sure we used to collect coins as a small child. i remember having them in some kind of, like, little packets and stuff. i dread to think where they've all gone. now, i must confess, i've got absolutely no idea. anyway, you know the drill on this program. it's not just about us three. it's not just about us three. it's very much about you guys at home as well. what's on your mind tonight? you can get in touch with me all the usual ways. you can email gb views @gbnews. com you can go onto the website at gbnews.com/yoursay or of course you can tweet or x me. there's a lot we need to discuss tonight, not least of course ,

tonight, not least of course, the story that's been dominating so many of the news headlines today the infected blood scandal. it has indeed been branded the worst nhs treatment disaster in uk history. i mean this is absolutely damning and it has taken years and years for us to get to this point. but now i will cross live to our gb news reporter, charlie peters. charlie, just bring anyone that hasn't caught up with the news today up to speed. if you will. >> sure, michel. so just now people are coming out of this location in central westminster , location in central westminster, where the inquiry report was read out earlier today. there are some smiles here as people are some smiles here as people are leaving this hall. members of the infected blood community, those campaign ers and survivors for decades because they have heard that comprehensive apology from the prime minister rishi sunak matched by the leader of the opposition, sir keir starmer, in what is a historic show of cross—party unity on

this major political scandal, where keir starmer said that this scandal has spanned for decades across several governments . and rishi sunak governments. and rishi sunak said that when it comes to the compensation , then they will pay compensation, then they will pay whatever needs to be paid. so smiles reacting to those messages in the last hour, but also some scepticism about how that will be achieved because so much of this scandal

behaviours. and it's changing those behaviours that is eventually going to lead to the, significant change so that something like this can't happen again. >> mr you just quickly do you accept the apology that you've heard from the leaders of the two main parties today ? two main parties today? >> yes, i do, if they follow through and deliver as justice in full, well, justice in full is what's going to be demanded here for all of their campaigners that we've met and heard from today. >> they've waited decades to hear that message. and now the

action is on hearing the compensation come through. and for all 12 of the recommendations from sir brian's report to be acted on. >> ali peters, thank you very much for that update, you know, i listened to so many of these people's stories. it is just absolutely heartbreaking. if you've just joined us. so you're behind the scenes with this. look, let's just catch up with what rishi sunak had to say in his apology earlier. >> this is a day of shame for the british state. today's report shows a decades long moral failure at the heart of our national life, from the national health service to the civil service to ministers in successive governments. at every level, the people and institutions in which we place our trust fail and in the most harrowing and devastating way they failed. the victims and their families and they failed this country. now before i bring my panel into this conversation, i just want us all to cast our mind back because, you know, i

look at these things and i think kind of there, but for the grace of god go i because there was different people affected by this. >> it was people often going in, i don't know, they'd had a problem in childbirth and they needed some kind of transfusion , needed some kind of transfusion, it could have affected any of us that our trust and our faith into the nhs. and i just want to one of the things that really stopped me is let me just remind you of this advert that i think many of you will be familiar with. watch >> there is now a danger that has become a threat to us all. it is a deadly disease and there is no known cure for the virus can be passed during sexual intercourse with an infected person . anyone can get it. person. anyone can get it. >> man or woman . >> man or woman. >> man or woman. >> so far, it's been confined to small groups , but it's spreading small groups, but it's spreading . so protect yourself and read this leaflet when it arrives. if

you ignore aids, it could be the death of you. so don't die of ignorance . ignorance. >> i mean, that absolutely chills so many people and i just want to, show you another tweet that i saw today because i'm trying to paint the scene for people about what some of the attitudes was out there among this time. now, this is a chap called jason. his dad was infected with hiv in the infected with hiv in the infected blood scandal. he says that his mum was then sacked from her job, and this is what from herjob, and this is what the owner told the local paper. i'll read it for you if you're listening on the radio, it says the owner and of the bakery and cake shop defended his decision, saying that there was always the chance that mrs. evans could become infected with aids in the future. i know at the moment the disease is dormant in her husband, but it he could contract it at any time and pass it on to her. he said his staff were understandably worried about the situation and the possibility that the disease could be spread by blood if mrs. evans accidentally cut herself while washing up. he says basically, he has food around

and therefore he feels it's the wrong sort of place for mrs. evans to work. it could have been a real hazard. so you had situations here now you've got to remember these people did absolutely nothing wrong. there was a little boy called colin smith. he was infected , he got smith. he was infected, he got a transfusion aged ten months old. he died of age aids, age seven years old. his family have described having been described as the aids family. you know, you've got other families homes where they've had children infected like this having aids scumb daubed on their walls. i mean , all of these years have mean, all of these years have passed often. claire, these people have not been believed. they've been vilified. this is a huge day for them today. absolutely. >> i mean, we have to remember that the moral panic around hiv and aids and the demonisation of anyone with aids was wrong anyway, right? >> so anyone who got aids did nothing wrong either. they just got a horrible new virus, a horrible new illness indeed, and

thankfully now we have medical interventions that can save people's lives. but you're absolutely right. i mean, the thing that's really shocking about this story is, of course, that people were not believed then when they were believed they were. there was kind of a gaslighting of them. right that they were treated like dirt in they were treated like dirt in the public because of a moral panic, like if you had hiv, as you've described, but also when people were saying there's something wrong with the institutions, then they were treated with contempt. and i think that i have to say that i don't feel as though things have moved on entirely. i mean, we've got a number of big scandals at the moment, maybe not quite as dramatic as this, the maternity, what's been happening in maternity care in this country. many of the women that have been involved in that will tell you that you can't get anyone to believe you or to listen to you, that people who will treat you as though you're making it up and that things will be covered up . we've just had lockdown and up. we've just had lockdown and covid took about a climate of

fear around things, so i think that there is a danger that we don't just think, oh, this was something from the past. there are new forms of it, but at least today, that narrative has been put right as being set right. but there's a lot of narratives that we have to rewrite, i'm afraid. indeed. >> one aaron bastani your thoughts. >> i think what makes this different to the things that claire just said a moment ago was that the science on this had been established decades earlier, and the world health organisation had established that you shouldn't really pull the blood of more than 20 people because of the risks involved, of having large numbers of people. if there's a single sample which has hiv aids or a particular condition, that would sully the whole batch. so this was established in the early 19505, was established in the early 1950s, and yet the nhs didn't think that advice was worth listening to or recognising in the early 1970s. and you would have thought, given that advice which had been discarded, that when people started to say, well, something's going wrong here, that the state would have

been alive to it, it's not like something was happened which the science hadn't foreseen. the risks were fully understood decades before this scandal even happened. decades before this scandal even happened . and that's what i find happened. and that's what i find really, really remarkable. so it's not just a, you know, a failure of the science or an over credibility or credulity with the science, like you might say, with covid, the science was well established, and i really am at a loss as to why that was just ignored for decades. but isn't that i mean, you know, first of all, we've got a problem of potentially it's difficult to be a whistleblower. >> and we have to admit that the nhs has a sort of sacred cow that you can't challenge is part of that. and i'm not i'm not having a go at the nhs per se, but that it meant that there's kind of like a closed shop, a closing of ranks. i mean, i don't know how it or why it originally happened. you raise a very important point. but there are i think there are medical scandals. i mean, i, i keep i know that this is slightly contentious politically, but i think that for example, the young people and, you know,

being put on puberty blockers and sex hormones and so on is a great medical scandal in the making. and when you read the cass review, one of the things that she says, and it doesn't matter what you what you think about the issue politically is that people are frightened to speak up because they're worried that they will be going against, you know, they're going to lose their jobs. and you know, they're going to lose theirjobs. and i think that their jobs. and i think that atmosphere still exists. that's all i'm saying, is where, you know, something's gone wrong instead of it being openly discussed. there's a cover up and anyone who wants to speak out will pay the price for it. and there's then a contempt for the public who were the victims of these things? we've seen the same in the post office dispute. i mean, post office, post office masters, if you see what i mean. they just ignore them. >> well, one thing that i found interesting, of course, everyone will, well, many people knew about the post office situation, but it only really came into much broader, kind of public awareness because of an itv documentary . well, actually, i documentary. well, actually, i found it quite interesting to learn today that there's going to be an itv documentary about this scandal as well. and i

can't help but wonder how many more scandals, how many more itv , kind of drama documentary series or whatever they call them . will there be sandra says them. will there be sandra says michel, i just want to say bless each and every single person who may have been affected by this. if ever there was a worthwhile cause for a memorial, she if ever there was a worthwhile cause for a memorial , she says, cause for a memorial, she says, this is it. and she hopes that they all get full compensation asap . steve says, i am so fed up asap. steve says, i am so fed up now with the amount of cover ups by the nhs and the government over the years, it's time we named and shamed all of those people involved, he says. even if they are no longer with us because we must put a stop to this , lots of people getting in this, lots of people getting in touch and saying like marianne says, it's not just about compensation. they should be real accountability, she says anyone who seems who has covered this up or played a part in this should be prosecuted. i found that interesting, marianne, because andy burnham of course, he is a former health secretary. one of the things that he's been saying is he would like to see

people potentially be prosecuted as well. i'll be talking to him after the break, and i also will be moving on to look at these ipp sentences i am a stickler for when it comes to law and order and deterrence and punishment, as you all know. but eveni punishment, as you all know. but even i think actually just chucking people in prison and not no idea at all as to when or if they will ever be let out, perhaps is a stretch too far. what do you make to it? i'll see you

hello there. i'm michelle dewberry with utah. 7:00 tonight. director of the academy of ideas. baroness claire fox and the co—founder of novara media, aaron bastani remain alongside me. lots of feedback and comments coming in about that infected blood scandal. i'm going to be connecting to andy burnham imminently, but, before i do that, i want to just have a conversation with you about a

major vote that's set to take place in the house of lords tomorrow. actually, or at least the debate starts then. and this is all about this concept of an |pp. is all about this concept of an ipp. now, anyone that watches this programme will know that i love a little bit of kind of , love a little bit of kind of, punishment when people have done wrong. i can't, i can't lie, but even for me, these concepts of an ipp stretch things a little bit too far. let me cross to you, claire fox, because a few people out there will be thinking, what is she talking about? what is an ipp? >> so this was a sentencing regime that was brought in in 2005. imprisonment for public protection immediately you think, oh, that's good. the pubuc think, oh, that's good. the public are going to be protected . yeah. and what they said was that there were certain categories of prisoners or, you know, criminals who they'd get in and then you'd give them an indefinite sentence because they were so dangerous. the problem was, was that they broadened out what they considered dangerous to such an extent that there was all sorts of people who were nicked a bike and a fight in the

park over a cigarette. and these are real examples, by the way. and they were given a tariff for three years, four years, whatever was appropriate, but then kept in indeterminately forever . right? and then kept in indeterminately forever. right? and obviously this is injustice. this isn't like this is like north korea or china, like sort of lock them up and then say, well, they might be dangerous if we let them out anyway , it was so bad that it anyway, it was so bad that it got abolished in 2012, this sentencing, because everybody left , right, throw away the key left, right, throw away the key types and, you know, bleeding heart liberals all said this is ridiculous kind of sentence. even david blunkett, obviously david blunkett, who brought it in, said the greatest regret of his life. they got rid of it in 2012, but they didn't do it retrospectively. so at the moment there are 3000 people in prison indefinitely for a range of crimes which they have served their time, often five times oven their time, often five times over. and those that are let out and this is the other thing, is, if you're let out on a licence, you think , oh, you're let out on

you think, oh, you're let out on a licence. the licence goes on for wait for it 99 years. you only get off the licence after ten years and you can be brought back into prison. if you miss an appointment or somebody accuses you of a crime. and even if you're found guilty, it doesn't matter. you start from scratch again. oh, it's a nightmare. you talk about scandals. this is one of the greatest scandals in british justice. >> i want to talk actually, to one such, ipp prisoner i can cross to anthony hipkiss anthony. good evening to you . anthony. good evening to you. hello, you are? do you call yourself an ex ipp prisoner or a current one? how would you describe yourself ? describe yourself? >> yeah, a current ipp prisoner. >> yeah, a current ipp prisoner. >> so you tell briefly the viewers your story . viewers your story. >> so, yeah. in two thousand and seven, i received an ipp for threats to kill charge. i was given a 15 month minimum term set by the, then judge and i ended up serving 16 years, and that included three recalls, two

of those of which were for , of those of which were for, again, as baroness hallett said, for missing appointments and so on. >> so let me just because i mean, i do confess, you know, i am a believer in prisons. i am a believer in tough kind of penalties for people when they do wrong. and all the rest of it. but when you say you've had a few months that turned into years, what did you do to make that happen ? that happen? >> you enjoyed the custody? yeah nothing. it so the whole purpose of the ipp was obviously for serious offences i.e. terrorism offences, sexual offences and so on. but as baroness hallett says, to sort of broaden the horizon. so from the 4 to 600 people that was predicted to get it, 8100 people ended up with ipp prison sentences. so we became a huge burden on the system, therefore created a backlog amongst the board which we had to go through to sort of be released. so it ended up becoming a point where we were

just waiting months and months and months and years and years and months and years and years and years after our original tariff for an actual board. and then it be a case of they wanted to do as a new, a new program they wanted because obviously in prison you have to do behaviour programs and so on to prove that you have been released, these courses can take years and years and years to get on. so someone who's got a say myself a 15 month tariff, i could be waiting three years to get on a program that's double my actual sentence. and, you know, this, this sort of sort of just like the long and the long and long and. yeah, so again, it weren't it was very rarely for behaviour issues . it was more waiting to issues. it was more waiting to get on programs or it could be something so subtle, like you had a bit of a bollocking off an officer for being in bed late or something like that. and i'm, i'm being serious about this. so i'm being serious about this. so i'm not having your curtains open. >> i mean, anthony, i don't need to come in because this all sounds like a little bit ludicrous, i will confess, you're telling me it is that you can be in prison for a sentence, whatever. and then because you get into trouble from a police

officer, you can then have your sentence extended by potentially years. really? >> seriously? yes yeah, i speak from experience, but. and baroness vauxhall , you know, baroness vauxhall, you know, she's somebody who's, you know coming on to on board with us. she'll tell you she's a friend. >> i've done a lot of reading up into this and it is literally unbelievable. and i just need to there's been a quite a few people that have chosen to end their lives very sadly, via suicide that have been on these licenses. and i know that some of these people are friends of yours. i also know that you yourself, that you attempted suicide, i think it was about three times or so. i mean, just talk us through the emotional toll that these kind of things take on you. >> so i can speak on behalf of myself and a lot of my ipp friends that we was put there for a reason, you know, we weren't put in prison for or for good behaviour , but the sentence good behaviour, but the sentence has to fit the punishment . has to fit the punishment. >> and when you're being told

that you're going to stay in prison indefinitely. so we're talking potentially for the rest of your life for about minimalizing a sentence for threats to kill or for stealing a pack of cigarettes, or for stealing someone's bike. you know, you can imagine the despair of that. and especially so in like like, hold on, anthony. >> sorry, i don't mean to. >> sorry, i don't mean to. >> sorry, i don't mean to. >> so you're telling me that people got sent to prison for stealing sweets? yes. >> really? yes. so some guy went to a sweet shop and nicked some sweets, and he ended up in prison? >> no, he stole sweets from somebody off a street and a mobile phone. >> so he robbed somebody? >> so he robbed somebody? >> a friend of mine stole a boat, right? so these charges, the clusters of street robberies , which obviously stand a lot worse than they are, so a friend of mine received an 18 month sentence for stealing a bike. he's been in prison now, coming on nearly 18 years. >> why ? help me. >> why? help me. >> why? help me. >> help me understand. so you tried to nick a bike or you nicked a bike? what then happens between getting your sentence of whatever it is for nick and your bike, and then something's going

on in the middle to end up then with 18 years. what is that something like, again, a backlog in the system , waiting for of in the system, waiting for of course, there's incidents where people have been misbehaved and, you know, we are there to be we are there to prove ourselves that we're capable of being released back into society. >> but when there's just nothing but despair and i mean us, i've seen despair and i've seen lots of a loss of hope. some people just feel like they've got there's no point continuing, you know, there's no point continuing with the life. there's no point continuing progressing anymore . so and progressing anymore. so and because when they are showing signs of good behaviour , but signs of good behaviour, but they're getting rejected and rejected after a parole board, it's going to do some mickey mouse kwarteng. i will call them that to go and do some mickey mouse six month course. what? they've been waiting three years to get on, then people just sort of lose hope and despair and that happened to myself. that happened to 8 to 6. now of my friends that i've lost a life. now, this thing's not a death sentence. you know, no matter what you've done, you know, we don't believe in death penalty.

and i know you've got views on that. i do watch your show, but it's like for stealing a pack of fags or for stealing a bag of sweets, or stealing a bike, or for threatening somebody. that is not a death sentence . so you is not a death sentence. so you can sort of see why people are starting to sort of see the injustice in this. and when someone as online as yourself, you know, can see that, you know, i don't want to say disgusting because like i said, we've been in prison for a reason, but the people that my friends are, michelle, have watched my friends walk around the cell that night, and that's the cell that night, and that's the last time i saw them. now, these people have got families because they're serving a sentence that they should never have had in the first place. and i myself, you know, i feel blessed. i'm, you know, i'm a man of faith. i believe i was here for a reason. and i've three times i've tried to take my own life. i was kept alive for a purpose, and that is to come out and tell you guys this shocking story that's going on, going off with this sort of sentence and yeah, you know, let's hope we have a good little bit of outcome tomorrow away. >> it is absolutely shocking. it gives me goosebumps actually,

because i am i don't mess around when it comes to law and order. but i also passionately believe in fairness as well, so for that reason, i wish you luck, actually with your campaign. and i really appreciate you coming on and talking to me tonight. thank you very much. that's anthony hopkins. thank you, thank you, thank you, look , i thank you, thank you, look, i mean, i want to get aaron's view on this. i've got i've got all goose pimply there. what do you make to that at home? everybody, i want to bring aaron bastani into this conversation, but i will do so after the break. don't go anywhere. i'll

hello there. i'm michelle dewberry, and i'm keeping you company until 7:00 tonight. claire fox and aaron bastani remain alongside me. i can tell you right . you're really getting you right. you're really getting in touch about this. this notion of an ipp prisoner, christine ,

of an ipp prisoner, christine, she says seriously, michelle, i can't even believe that you were beginning to sympathise with that prisoner. they do not. she puts it in capital, so she means business. they do not keep prisoners imprisoned for nothing. like it says, it's all about public protection . and she about public protection. and she says, i speak as an ex prison officer. brent says iprs are unfair, but they did commit a crime in the first place. but this whole ipp thing is wrong. he must be freed immediately. he's clearly no threat to anyone . you're really divided on that. .you're really divided on that. i want to bring aaron bastani into this conversation in just a couple of minutes, but before i do that, i will cross live to andy burnham. he joins me now to reflect on that, that shocking developments today. we've seen rishi sunak come out and apologise , andy, saying apologise, andy, saying essentially it's a day of shame for britain . you are a former for britain. you are a former ex—health secretary yourself . i ex—health secretary yourself. i found your comments quite interesting. when you're saying actually that you want, some form of prosecution for people that are accountable for this. tell me more.

>> well, i agree with what the prime minister has said. i believe today's report should rock whitehall to its foundations because whitehall dug in behind a lie for decades, and that had very serious consequences for people's health and people's lives , so there has and people's lives, so there has to be accountability. you know, we've seen these situations, don't we? how there's a, you know, a big injustice uncovered, like hillsborough or, grenfell or the post office. and yet there isn't that individual accountability, but that has to follow. and in my view, prosecutions should be considered in this case, including , corporate including, corporate accountability. i believe there may well be a case for corporate manslaughter against whitehall departments as well . departments as well. >> yeah. we're not the only people to be looking at this because in france they've tried to progress this route and have progressed actually also in japan as well, but do you think we'd ever get that through in this day and age with our set up

the way it is, do you think you'd ever see the day when someone actually was criminally prosecuted for this? andy >> well, it's a good question and we haven't really seen that, have we, in this, this country there often isn't that accountability. but sir bryan was really clear , wasn't he, was really clear, wasn't he, that there should now be that statutory duty of candour on senior civil servants to tell the truth at the first time of asking? and i just don't believe that you can get a report of this enormity and there not be some follow on now in terms of individual and corporate accountability. so we will wait and see. but, you know, to have the prime minister using a phrase like a day of shame for the british state, well, that's pretty strong, isn't it, and if that's what it is, well , pretty strong, isn't it, and if that's what it is, well, i pretty strong, isn't it, and if that's what it is, well , i would that's what it is, well, i would say those responsible for bringing this country to this day of shame should absolutely be be held to account. >> all right. >> all right. >> but let's not beat about the bush though, andy, as well, because you at one point you were also the health minister.

i've got people emailing me saying, can you ask andy why didn't he sort it out? then >> well, i started to is the answer to that. so in early 2010, i met a group of campaigners, fred and eleanor bates from withenshaw, and they started to , to educate me, to be started to, to educate me, to be honest about the whole, the whole thing. i was being given the official line by the department of health that nobody was knowingly given unsafe blood products . the department tried products. the department tried to stop me meeting fred and eleanor, but i did meet them, and i began to understand it from their perspective . and from their perspective. and sadly, i ran out of time because of the general election in 2010. but i carried on looking at it and i eventually got the evidence together, to allow me to go to parliament in 2017 and call this a criminal cover up on an industrial scale. i was the first person to say that at the time, but i said it and i'm

really kind of encouraged today that sir bryan has effectively endorsed that, that that is exactly what this situation is. but it was the strength of the cover up that whitehall put in place which which meant basically that this has taken so long to get to this , get to this long to get to this, get to this day. >> well, it is a massive day for every single person that's affected by this. so for now, andy burnham , thank you for your andy burnham, thank you for your thoughts. i do just want to and i do apologise for kind of jumping around topics a bit at the moment because live news ladies and gents, it is such that there's a lot going on at the moment, so i need to try and grab people, when i possibly can. so i do apologise that i'm chopping and changing, but i want to take you back to ipso. aaron you know, that was a really fascinating story there from anthony . what did you make from anthony. what did you make to it? >> well, i'm really glad you you had him on. it was great tv, and he's got a powerful story. what i would say is, let's look at this from a slightly different angle. the numbers right now in the uk, it it costs around

£45,000 a year to put somebody in prison. so so just for that gentleman, he was in prison, i think he said for 15 years that would have cost the taxpayer in today's currency , £675,000, 3000 today's currency, £675,000, 3000 people presently in prison. because of this legislation that's costing £135 million a year. that's costing £135 million a year . that's that's costing £135 million a year. that's a lot of that's costing £135 million a year . that's a lot of money that's costing £135 million a year. that's a lot of money for the taxpayer. and we see this time after time, the longer you are in journalism, the longer you look at basically how the british state works. there is so much money that is wasted on the most stupid things like this . most stupid things like this. you know, we're wasting money so that people, as you said at the top of the story, somebody in prison 12 years for a mobile phone, 16 years for stealing a bike. not only are those outlandish and frankly, at odds with any meaningful conception of living in a free society , the of living in a free society, the taxpayer is paying an arm and a leg so they can stay inside, many of them able bodied, healthy young men. they should be working. they should be paying be working. they should be paying taxes. they should be contributing to society. instead, we've got the opposite happening, and i find it absurd , happening, and i find it absurd, frankly, that look are the

resentence all 3000 of them, maybe have some statutory minimum. they have to continue to serve and then release them. but whatever it is, the idea that, well , that would cost too that, well, that would cost too much money. no, this is costing us £135 million a year. >> yeah. and i've got to say, claire, that many people are really divided on this, you know, it . they, i mean, they know, it. they, i mean, they share my position because i think actually , if you've done think actually, if you've done if you've done criminal activity often, i do think you deserve to be behind bars. thank you very much, but there's got to be a limit to that. >> no one's saying they shouldn't go behind bars. the point is, you get, you do the crime, you do the time, and then you leave. we do not have indefinite locking people up. this sentence was brought in and it was so bad that it was abolished. i think that there's two things to quickly say, the people are saying, i don't believe this. they must have done more. come on, what's the real story? well, we've just heard about the blood scandal, where people were saying, i don't believe that that could have happened. i can't believe they were given . remember when

they were given. remember when they were given. remember when the post masters, people say, i can't believe they weren't really ripping things off. it can't be true, right ? what's can't be true, right? what's really going on here? and imagine the irony at the moment. the government are proposing to let people out of early out of prison early because they've made a complete mess of prison numbers, they've got overcrowding , they're letting overcrowding, they're letting people out early. there are 3000 people out early. there are 3000 people serving a sentence that they abolished 12 years ago, and they abolished 12 years ago, and they won't let them out because guess what? they're worried that gb news viewer types will go, you're being soft on crime . and you're being soft on crime. and that's what the labour party is as well. they now won't fight the government on this because they don't want anyone to think in the build up to the election that they're putting people's safety at risk. >> but i'm a gb news viewer type, and even judge jury even i think it's you sensibly, you know , this is mad, philip, says know, this is mad, philip, says ipp why not? he says it's self—explanatory. keep them locked up. unless you can prove

the public don't need protecting from them. but this is an interesting point. what philip's raised there, and he's saying, unless you can prove the public don't need protecting from them, well, one of the things that you're voting on tomorrow, correct me if i'm wrong. one of the amendments, claire, is there's this amendment that's going through or being proposed, which would actually mean that currently the prisoner has to prove that they are not a threat to the public. and now this amendment seeks to change that, because now it would be the board essentially, that has to prove why they are exactly the difference with ipp prisoners is when you go to the parole board, the state does not have any obugafion the state does not have any obligation on to say why they should incarcerate you beyond the end of your sentence. >> it's the other way around, and the only way you can prove you're not dangerous is to prove you've been on a range of courses. and as was already indicated by your brilliant interviewee, they're rubbish courses anyway, and you can't get on them and they keep moving. you from prison to prison, so you never get on the courses. and so then the government says, and the opposition are, well, they must be dangerous , you know, just

be dangerous, you know, just this point, lock them up in case they might do something. why don't we just lock everyone up in case they might be a threat? you know, maybe zero crime. i mean, aaron, i mean, look at him. he's the type. looks a bit dodgy. i mean, michelle, i wba glasses, we've got it in common. >> we obviously look a call a free society. >> we don't lock people up unless they've committed crime. then be as hard as you want on them. >> michael says how on earth am i only just hearing about ipp for the first time? he says, this is an absolute scandal. tessa says, i completely believe in strong punishment . she says. in strong punishment. she says. however, ipp does sound completely disproportionate to her case says this is very simple. don't do crimes and you won't do the time. she says, i could not care less how long criminals stay locked away for. yeah, but i bet you would care if that was your son. if your son has done something wrong, and then rightly, he was punished with a prison sentence. would you think, therefore, that your son has to forever potentially have this hanging over his head? or do you think he should be able to? yes, he's done the crime and now he's paid

his time. should he be able to move on with his life? and i guess that is perhaps the crux of it all. keep your thoughts coming in because you are a divided bunch on that one. i have to say, one of my other viewers, he's made a good point. he said, i'm really angry going back to the blood scandal. i'm really angry that another scandal of the state has taken decades to uncover. but he also says he feels very angry by seeing how empty the benches were in parliament, for this mea culpa by sunak and starmer, he says, it shows yet again that politicians continue to treat the people of this country with utter contempt, and everyone who didn't attend should be named and shamed. blimey, andy, what do you think to his perspective ? do you think to his perspective? get in touch and let me know. talking about perspectives , by talking about perspectives, by the way, many of you will have been viewers for the gb news people's forum, yes , i hear you people's forum, yes, i hear you say you watched it and you loved it. but if you didn't watch it, let's remind you what it was all about and let me and the thousands in the tens of thousands in the tens of

thousands in the tens of thousands in this country to rot. >> rishi sunak look me in the eye. when are you going to start to do the right thing ? the to do the right thing? the vaccine damage payment scheme is not fit for purpose . not fit for purpose. >> yeah, well, i mean, i've got to say, i hosted the show before that, and i was also, live in that, and i was also, live in that studio as well, watching that studio as well, watching that debate as it unfolded. i've got to say, though, now ofcom, the regulator, has said that gb news breached broadcasting rules for that situation . aaron for that situation. aaron bastani, you was at the, pre—show with me. he was also there watching that, also, what did you make to ofcom's ruling today? it's a very strange one. >> so my view is personally that gb news did nothing wrong, like you say, i was there, i watched it rishi sunak was torn to shreds by an audience, which was selected by an independent polling company. selected by an independent polling company . yeah, for the polling company. yeah, for the best part of. was it an hour? i mean, it felt like an eternity, but he was torn to shreds. and so the idea that somehow this was just a platform for him to sound off and propagandistic,

say what he likes, is absurd. if i was a labour strategist or comms person, i'd be very grateful he was doing that. frankly, i was somewhat surprised he agreed to do it in a way good for him. he should. he's the prime minister. what ofcom have said is you weren't bringing in to or one integrates enough. labour's side of the argument, but look, the idea that therefore you weren't sufficiently holding the prime minister to account is ridiculous. so by the letter of the law, i can understand why this has happened. maybe because labour weren't really being mentioned that often, but the fact is, the prime minister was grilled by a live audience in a way i haven't seen anywhere else . that's good for democracy. so on the one hand, i somewhat get the letter of the law here, but the letter of the law here, but the spirit of it, i think is ridiculous . and this certainly ridiculous. and this certainly wasn't some advert for the prime minister. anything but, wasn't some advert for the prime minister. anything but , they got minister. anything but, they got 547 complaints about it . 547 complaints about it. >> apparently they reckon it broke due impartiality rules, which they say is a serious, and this is repeat breach of this

rules. and now they are starting the process for consideration of a statutory sanction against gb news claire fox. >> what do you make to it? >> what do you make to it? >> so it's, j.s. mill's birthday today , appropriately, a free today, appropriately, a free speech day. i think it's academic freedom days internationally. the reason i'm mentioning that is because obviously a free press is definitely under threat here. it seems to me, from ofcom being, i think, unreasonable . i mean, i think, unreasonable. i mean, i it feels to me as though they're break breaching their impartiality rules in this one because i think you'd have to be really be searching, you know, it's such a bad faith decision. i just genuinely don't understand it. i think to say that the only basis on which you can criticise , rishi sunak, by can criticise, rishi sunak, by the way, is by going down the labour party route. you know, you have to sound as though you're a keir starmer, like type. that's the only basis on which you can criticise the tories. that's ridiculous, because the audience, the voters, the public, it was the

people's panel. yeah. went in and they asked him what they wanted to ask him. maybe they didn't ask him what ofcom thinks would be the official opposition questions . by the way, i as far questions. by the way, i as far as i'm concerned, gb news should have and would have and could have and would have and could have done exactly the same with the leader of, you know, with keir starmer and done people's. >> and just to be clear , i just >> and just to be clear, i just want to be clear on this, actually, because, the clue was in the title , it was a forum in the title, it was a forum with the prime minister, i.e. rishi sunak . so ofcom was rishi sunak. so ofcom was saying, for example, neither the labour party's views or positions on issues were given, due weight or including the programme. well it wasn't, it wasn't a conversation with keir starmer about the labour party's position. and to just be absolutely clear, this was intended to be the first in a series. so we'd absolutely reached out to the likes of keir starmer, ed davey richard tice for those guys to have the same platform to interact with you, the viewer, and i want to reiterate the point that aaron's already made the audience were

nothing to do with gb news. they were not selected by us. we use an independent organisation who got those viewers. they were a mixture of different viewers with different voting intentions. perhaps some some of them might not have had any voting intentions because they weren't going to turn out, and perhaps some were undecided. it all seems very odd to me. the level of scrutiny piled onto gb news is like nothing i've ever seen before. online campaigns absolutely whipped up by people desperate to see the back of us. why? well, adam boulton, he put it beautifully. do you remember when he said, how dare gb news come along and upset the delicate broadcast . ecology? do delicate broadcast. ecology? do you remember that conversation on newsnight on bbc that didn't have a single solitary voice in favour of gb news at all? but guess what, ladies and gents? apparently that is all right. make of it what you will. but try and make it make sense for me, i beg you, in the meantime , me, i beg you, in the meantime, aaron bastani. thank you. my pleasure. claire fox. thank you

for yours. and, of course, the most important people of all. you at home. i appreciate your company. nigel farage is up next. nanites >> looks like things are heating up . boxt boilers sponsors of up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news. >> evening. welcome to your latest weather update from the met office here on gb news. a messy picture with the weather tomorrow. most of us cloudier and cooler than today. but again, like today, there will be again, like today, there will be a few thunderstorms in place where between weather systems, but this area of low pressure is pushing up from the south and will generate a few more showers. we'll see the cloud thickening across east anglia and the east midlands with some showers here. the downpours we've seen across northern ireland, they will continue to fade through this evening in many places will have a dry night, a bit misty and murky once more on these eastern coast. quite chilly across scotland again. temperatures down to about 3 to 5 degrees in rural spots, whereas in the south many towns and cities

staying in double figures. a cloudier day. then on tuesday, particularly over the midlands, parts of northeast england and along the east coast of scotland, especially aberdeenshire , up towards aberdeenshire, up towards orkney. grey, misty and murky with that ha sticking around but a good part of scotland actually starting sunny . generally a dry starting sunny. generally a dry starting sunny. generally a dry start in northern ireland, but we are looking at some thunderstorms breaking out here later on and we'll start with a lot of cloud over the midlands, northern england and generally quite a drab day over central and eastern england. but some sunshine for wales and southwest england as the day goes on, increasing chance of again seeing some thunderstorms breaking out across northern ireland but also southwestern parts of england. and the met office warning in place . wet office warning in place. wet weather will continue to affect parts of central and eastern england . a few scattered showers england. a few scattered showers over the highlands, some brightness in western scotland, but as i said, most places cloudier than today and as a result cooler. more cloud and rain then spill in from the east as we head into wednesday. could be a very soggy day over parts of eastern england and parts of

scotland . some heavy downpours scotland. some heavy downpours possible and in the south some brighter spells may well trigger some heavy showers as we go through the day, there'll be a bit more of a breeze coming in from the east, so a cool day here with some brightness further south, we could again get up to 20 celsius. bye for how. >> now. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on .

gb news. >> good evening. the infected blood scandal. today's inquiry and not new revelations . but at and not new revelations. but at last, after 40 years, at last, the truth , i asked, will anybody the truth, i asked, will anybody ever be held to account over this? or indeed, the mistakes made during covid? ofcom launch

a broadside against gb news. they say the people's forum we organise with rishi sunak did not display due impartiality. we are not going to take this lying down. ofcom have simply got this wrong and last thursday i had a 99 year old world war two veteran in the studio. we said we'd try and raise money to send veterans to normandy on june the 6th. it's been a great success. i'll update you on that during the course of the show. but first, let's get the news with aaron armstrong. >> a very good evening to you. i'm aaron armstrong. the prime minister has offered an unequivocal apology to victims of the infected blood scandal, describing it as a day of shame for the british state. the inquiry found a subtle, pervasive and chilling cover up from those in positions of trust and power, including the deliberate destruction of documents by government officials. the final report concluded patients were

knowingly exposed to unacceptable