>> good evening. i'm ray addison in the gb news room. free speech nafion in the gb news room. free speech nation is coming right up. but first, our top stories and we start with some breaking news. the raf pilot who died when his spitfire crashed near raf coningsby, has now been named as squadron leader mark long. police and emergency services rushed to the scene on langrick roadin rushed to the scene on langrick road in lincolnshire just before 1:20 pm. on saturday. described as a passionate professional aviator for the last four years, he'd been a pilot with the battle of britain memorial flight. the ministry of defence has described the incident as a tragic accident and an investigation into its cause is now underway . eight people have

now underway. eight people have been taken to hospital after severe turbulence on a qatar airways flight from doha to dubun airways flight from doha to dublin dublin airport, saying that emergency services, including police and fire and rescue teams met the plane as it landed safely shortly before 1:00 this afternoon . now, the 1:00 this afternoon. now, the injuries to six passengers and six crew occurred as they were flying over turkey . now an flying over turkey. now an urgent search is underway for two vulnerable teenage girls who are believed to be around 130 miles away from home. police say they're extremely concerned for they're extremely concerned for the safety of 12 year old grace and 15 year old abby. both were reported missing from worthing, west sussex, and last seen in gofing west sussex, and last seen in goring by sea on friday morning. it's believed that they're using pubuc it's believed that they're using public transport to travel around the country and may have beenin around the country and may have been in birmingham city centre. we'll bring you an image of those two girls in our next bulletin . now, the proposed bulletin. now, the proposed return of compulsory national service was rejected by a

defence minister just days before the tories pledged to make it law. if the party wins the election. andrew murrison insisted that there were no plans to reintroduce the policy and said it could damage morale if potentially unwilling recruits were forced to serve. just two days later. as we now know, rishi sunak outlined plans to make all 18 year olds choose between serving in the army or volunteering in their local community. labour has dismissed the plan as a headline grabbing gimmick. the shadow chancellor says there will be no increases to tax or national insurance under a labour government. rachel reeves is promising a tough set of spending rules that she says will grow the economy while keeping taxes, inflation and mortgages as low as possible . the tories say their current plan is working, but labour argues that people are feeling worse off. and finally, more than 500 migrants have crossed

the channel in small boats so far this bank holiday weekend . far this bank holiday weekend. home office data showing that 227 people crossed illegally from france yesterday. it follows another 288 arrivals on friday. it takes the total so far this year to nearly 10,400. for the latest stories, sign up for alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen, or go to gb news. com slash alerts now back to free speech nation. >> the tories want to bring back national service. labour want children to vote, and a famous american author claims that shakespeare was a woman. this is free speech. nation . welcome to free speech. nation. welcome to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. this is the show where we take a look at culture, current affairs and politics. and of course, we'll have the

latest from those lovable culture warriors who think that stalin and mao had the right idea coming up on the show tonight, councillor sam murray will be here to tell us about her concerns regarding the way gender ideology is now being taughtin gender ideology is now being taught in schools , as technology taught in schools, as technology plays a huge role in all of our lives now too much of a role, perhaps. author timandra harkness tries to make sense of it all in her new book. she's going to be here to tell us more about that. and maya forstater and michael foreign will be here to discuss the ruling that the edinburgh rape crisis centre discriminated against an employee for her gender critical beliefs. and also, journalist aaron sebastian will discuss a report on the possible lowering of admission standards for minority applicants at ucla medical school and of course, i've got my fantastic panel here who are going to be answering questions from our lovely studio audience. and my comedians this evening are bruce devlin and josh howie . welcome to the show. josh howie. welcome to the show. lacklustre applause for you two, but i don't think you deserve more than that. >> no, they've seen me before. they've seen. they've seen me

perform comedy. and that's that's the appropriate response. >> they're very jaded by this point. josh, how are you.7 you point. josh, how are you? you had a good week. yes a good week. >> it's nice to have you back. yes. >> well thank you. yeah. you were here last week, weren't you? >>i you? >> i was here last week. i think i was working behind the scenes more. it was fun. yeah, yeah. >> you're always here. you should live here. basically, i do live here. >> my wife has kicked me out and i am literally living. that's my bed is just behind there, actually. well, that's very comfy. >> mustn't grumble. how are you, bruce? >> i'm fine, thank you. how are you? i'm very well. >> good. >> good. >> you're down from scotland, i am, yes. yeah. you say that with surprise because, you know, lots of people wouldn't like to leave scotland. >> you know, i know that you adore it as a as a country, yeah. we'll get to that, we'll get to that. anyway, let's start with some questions from our audience. our first question comes from abdi. >> it's here. hello. hello hi. should we bring back national service? >> well, yeah. so this is an odd way to start your campaign, isn't it? we all know about this because we've read about it. sunakis because we've read about it. sunak is now saying the tories are going to bring back national service. and i don't know if this is a vote winner. what do

you think, josh? >> no, i don't think it's a vote winner at all. it makes no sense. i can see the logic that he's trying to get to. can you? yeah.in he's trying to get to. can you? yeah. in terms of there there are some issues that need to be deau are some issues that need to be dealt with in our country. first of all, we have a deficiency in our in our armed services. yes, we also have a deficiency of, a national pride, arguably. and, and also this is might be a thing that would kick start a certain, i don't know, a knowledge and, and activity within. >> so i understand all of that and the arguments for it. but what i don't understand about it is whether it is strategically a good idea, given that he's coming into this election, that he's almost certainly bound to lose anyway. >> no, no. yeah. no, that's the crazy thing is people that that it's just not the priority. yes. and that's why it doesn't make sense. >> well that's it because the tories are often trying to target older voters. i mean older voters. grandparents are not going to want or relish the prospect of their grandchildren being sent off to war, are they? >> no. but it's funny you mentioned about deficiencies because the tory government largely are responsible for various vitamin deficiencies with the cost of living crisis, and they brought rickets from the past. so i'm not surprised that they've brought this in.

okay >> well, i mean, i know that james cleverly has defended this decision, so hopefully we can have a look at this. >> the military bit of this , >> the military bit of this, will be limited to about 30,000 people. that bit will be voluntary. so the scheme overall will be compulsory, but the military bit will only be for people who volunteer to do that element of it. >> fair enough. but it's not going to happen, is it? no no, they're not getting in. they could say anything at this point. >> i think they're just saying it for a laugh. yeah, they probably are. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> what else do they say they want the flying cars. >> flying cars. they might as well say that. >> flying cars. >> flying cars. >> that's the term you'll get free twiglets. >> i'd actually vote for that. >> i'd actually vote for that. >> yeah, so would i. >> yeah, so would i. >> okay, let's get another question now. this one's from william. where's william? yeah hello, william. >> hi. is it time to lower the voting age? >> well, keir starmer thinks so, doesn't he? so he's going to lower the voting age to 16. do you think that's a good idea? 16 year old voters? >> no, i don't know if they managed to get it through in scotland. but at the time of the referendum, we were just discussing that last night, actually, i it was proposed that

16 year olds would be given the vote. yes, but the snp had been behind it. but that's. yeah, that's that's what i mean. but the thing is, there's so many things you can do at 60, but i don't think you can like get a credit card or no, you can get can you get a tattoo, can you get a tattoo. >> well, i was tattooed from the age of four, but branded you can get branded. i was branded exactly. yeah. so. but but you can't get married, can you? >> no, you can't get married. you can have sex if you want to, you can join the armed forces, right? i'm so if that's the case. but you can't drive a car until you're 17. >> so should it be the case that they just say, look, you should be able to do all of those things when you're 16, you're an things when you're16, you're an adult. you can do whatever you want. yeah. >> no, i think i think you would have to. it seems odd that you're able to have some freedoms, but then not others. >> that does seem odd, but my problem with this, josh, is that a lot of 16 year olds know absolutely nothing about politics at all. >> i would say a lot of 40 year olds know absolutely nothing. >> there is that as well. exactly. and i'm not suggesting we have like an iq test before you're allowed to vote. >> i think that's a good idea. >> i think that's a good idea. >> you do, do you? >> you do, do you? >> i mean, i'm not saying i'd pass, but i. i'd take it with

grace, this thing about, like, six year olds being able to marry and or die for their country, and all of this stuff is like, you know what? that's a fair enough argument. if you're in the army and you're 16. yeah, you should be able to vote. of course, that's if you're in the army. how many 16 year olds are in the army? a handful, if any. so for those ones who are married or in the army or do have a job, i'd say, yeah, you can vote. and the rest of the six year olds are a bunch of useless people doing their gcses and whatnot. yes. no. >> obviously, the trouble with, i mean, it is a bit cynical, isn't it? i mean, because labour know full well that they their popularity skews greater towards the younger it was. >> and i was very shocked that this was like the big first seemingly public announcement. yeah. but it seems like it came out in a much more of a like he was campaigning and someone asked a question and then he said, yes, we've been considering it for the last year or so, and that's become the front page thing that seems that the route that it's happened, which makes a lot more sense because i was just thinking why on earth would you make this like one of your platform? immediate pledges on the opening weekend? >> that's not quite what's happened. >> no, it's not like the tories with national service. >> it's a different it's a different it's a different thing. okay, fine. let's get another question then. this one's from tim. tim. hello. >> should bookshops have the

right to ban certain authors . right to ban certain authors. >> okay. so this is based on this times report that that has shown that there's basically this literary network in scotland, literary alliance scotland. and they put out this post saying you mustn't to bookshops saying you don't sell bookshops saying you don't sell books by gender critical writers , and they say that they're basically aligned to fascists and all the rest of it. i've noficed and all the rest of it. i've noticed this quite a lot, actually, of people in bookshops. well, i've been told anecdotally about people, staff members hiding books if they disapprove and that kind of thing, tim, what do you think about this? >> well, no, i don't think anything should be banned in a bookshop. really? it would. it's up. it's up to you know, if you want to buy the book, buy the book. if you don't want to buy the book, don't buy the book. but i don't think they should be banned within the bookshop, of course. >> well, it's sort of bad enough, isn't it, when you go into those books and they put all the favourites of the people who work there, they're always the same, aren't they? they're always. it's like activists just work in bookshops now. yeah. >> it's disgusting. no, i mean it's upsetting, but it's also concerning in the power that these sort of ideologically captured people have to what information that the rest of us

can get here. and the fact that that went out as like official advice to bookshops. and when you do go in, i was graham lennon was talking about earlier. he had his book tough crowd. i think all about his being cancelled or whatever. and he said that people have bought it and, and where it is stocked, they've had to like go behind and find it. but then the glue , and find it. but then the glue, the pages are stuck together. >> yeah. members of staff allegedly have allegedly as pages sabotaging and whatnot. >> and it's not the thing is , >> and it's not the thing is, it's not like these books if you read like trans by helen joyce or whatever, these are, well, argument these aren't fascist documents. these aren't mein kampf, which they do sell, by the way . yeah, yeah, they're the way. yeah, yeah, they're happy to sell mein kampf, but this is, this is too much. they are reasoned arguments that present facts . yeah. and so the present facts. yeah. and so the idea that they're in any way hateful is no , they just differ hateful is no, they just differ from your ideology. >> because when i go into a bookshop , i just want to buy bookshop, i just want to buy what i want to buy. and i don't really want the staff sort of deciding what is appropriate. >> no, i wouldn't want to be told either if i read, i can't. so that's why i don't go into bookshops, which is fine. then if i did go into a bookshop, i would hide alan titchmarsh's work because i don't like him.

>> well, that's a that's a fair comment. what is quite astonishing, though, about this literary society is that they, they, they were putting out information that was not legal. they were saying that you are allowed to discriminate against these individuals. you're not. and i should say that they since retracted and said, well, that was like a draft version. but who wrote this draft version? like what? like what? >> who put it on the website ? >> who put it on the website? who put it on? they always afterwards, when they're caught, they claim that someone broke they claim that someone broke the rules or whatever. but i think that maybe all bookshops should it should be like comic books. that's where i mostly go as comic book shops. and there it's a much more, judgemental system of i'm sure. oh, i can't believe you're reading batman . believe you're reading batman. >> i will never set foot in a comic book shop. i'm just going to put that out. >> i'm too cool. >>— >> i'm too cool. >> you're too cool for me. all right, we're going to move on now to another question, this time the question is from , abdi, time the question is from, abdi, which we've already had. abdi, you're very keen . you're very keen. >> yeah, i know no one else volunteered for this one. okay what's your question, it's, do radical islamists try to woo people with cake?

>> with cake? i can see why, people are nervous about that, but this is actually a genuine thing. because the police have launched an investigation into a bakery . because it made a hamas bakery. because it made a hamas themed cake for a four year old boy's birthday inappropriate , i boy's birthday inappropriate, i would suggest. so, what do you think, bruce? >> well, it was a series of cupcakes, wasn't it? >> oh, well, that's okay then. >> oh, well, that's okay then. >> well, no, no, no, i'm just saying in general they were depicting different things. i would have thought that that was an odd thing for anyone to want on a cake. yes, but then it's a bit like when coleen nolan said the bakery in northern ireland were right not to make a cake. that was for some kind of gay celebration. yes. so this is a bit like the bookshop, but with sponge, who are we to say who can have what on free speech debates around cake. >> but it wasn't a gay four year old. >> no. whereas this is for a child and this shows this hamas, a proscribed terrorist organisation of rapists, torturers and murderers and someone is an adult is paying for it for a four year old. now this unfortunately shows the indoctrination of hatred. yes

being taught at a very young age to , islamist children or, and to, islamist children or, and growing up then themselves to enter into that world. and we've seen that with, unfortunately, palestinian society is still a huge proportion of them have shown to approve of what happened on october 7th. and people say that, you know, we want, you know, the two state solution, all of that. absolutely. but until a generation of palestinians grow up not hating israelis and jews, that's just not going to happen. >> it's always the way it's and activists always go after the young and it's always happened that way because they know that they can get people. if you get them early enough, you can you can get them to think kids like cake and kids like cake. they definitely do. okay, well, let's move on, we we're going to be talking to councillor sam murray soon. she's going to be here to tell us about her concerns about gender ideology, how it's being taughtin gender ideology, how it's being taught in schools, particularly in the wake of the government's recent guidelines on this. so please do not go anywhere. see you in a few minutes. yeah

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me. andrew doyle. earlier this month, the government released new guidance regarding the teaching of relationships, sex and health, education, or rsha , in an education, or rsha, in an attempt to prevent young children being exposed to inappropriate content. the guidance says that sex education should be taught no earlier than year five, when pupils are nine, and education secretary gillian keegan says gender identity should not be taught to children as uncontested fact at any age. so sam murray is a conservative county councillor in suffolk who has spoken out on this issue and she joins me now. welcome to the show. hello. hi, sam. hi very grateful for you for coming in. thank you. let's start by talking about your own experience. because you have children. yeah. they have been taught these various things. what did you do about it? >> well, actually, i caught it before they were taught it. right. so yeah, i was become

aware of the situation. wanted to have a look at the curriculum. the school reluctantly sent out the documentation and i said, i'm not having any of it, what kind of things were in the documentation? >> well , very documentation? >> well, very young children were being taught well, he said. on one hand, it was , gender on one hand, it was, gender stereotyping portrayed by the media. and on the other hand, it was gender ideology, which i said was a conflict in itself because gender ideology is all about gender stereotyping. yes, wasn't received very well , and wasn't received very well, and then there was really inappropriate content for quite young girls such as wet dreams, and that content that i just didn't think was appropriate. >> i've spoken to some parents who've had some real issues with this because they've been shown very sometimes graphic materials . they've tried to have their children withdrawn from the class. they've been told, you can't have your children withdrawn from the classes, but is that actually accurate? >> yeah , i get fed back to me >> yeah, i get fed back to me that some schools are saying you can't withdraw your, because i have a profile. i spoke about it publicly and therefore the school thought, right, here we go. i don't i don't want to deal with it. fine. you can withdraw. but even now they're still

giving me the documentation and saying what parts of the curriculum do you want us to teach? yes, because we think it's about extremism or something. i said, no, ijust don't want you teaching it because i can't trust that you won't include certain elements that just just filter it through. so i've said no to any of it. >> and there's a lot of people who have made the point that it's probably against the law anyway, in terms of the education act, which says you can't teach politically partisan material. and this is very much ideologically partisan. yeah. so the idea that you're teaching what is effectively a belief system, as though it was uncontested fact, that's really what you're objecting to here. >> well, yeah. and actually it's such a young age because, you know, we when we talk about relationship tips, which i have no problem with like different, you know, mummy and mummy, daddy, daddy. you know everyone's family circumstances can look different . and so can look different. and so exploring that i have no problem with. but then when you're seeping in a contested ideology with such young minds who are trying to work out who they are as a person anyway, that's when i say no. >> how many teachers do you think are going along with this? because i know in a lot of cases, the schools tend to

invite activist groups in who have pre—prepared materials . a have pre—prepared materials. a lot of the time the headmaster or headmistress doesn't know what's in the materials . they what's in the materials. they just let it go ahead. but sometimes it can be very dodgy stuff . stuff. >> well, i think it's, you know, who's teaching the teachers, right? and so if you have people that external sources that come in and teach the teachers , you in and teach the teachers, you know, this is the terminology that you need to use now. and as a society we're moving at such a quick pace. everyone's so worried about saying the wrong thing . yes. that, you know, it thing. yes. that, you know, it is those people that i question their qualifications is coming into the schools teaching the teachers. and this is this is how you teach a curriculum that that creates a bad teaching,, doesn't it? yes. >> and you're a councillor, so you've actually been able to raise this on a public forum. how has that been received whenever you've done this. yeah. >> so i've raised it several times with members of parliament, you know, dinners and things that we get to go to. and they say, yeah, 100% agree with you. we'll look into this. i've raised, you know , the i've raised, you know, the increase of open plan toilets that are being thrown on us like they're anti—bullying, but they're anti —bullying, but actually they're anti—bullying, but actually they're not. they're just gender neutral, but they're worried about people going all,

you know, funny about it. so they're reframing it. and oh no, there absolutely needs to be a private space for young children. well, i'm telling you, there aren't. but nothing's being done about it. and it's just happening at such a quick pace. >> so this is the problem. we've got the guidelines now from the government, which a lot of people would argue are long overdue, and they should have been there a long time ago. but is it going to change? because my worry is that a lot of activists are so deeply embedded in all of our major institutions, but particularly when it comes to education. and they they react. so in such a hostile , ferocious way, if hostile, ferocious way, if people challenge them, are they really going to give up without a fight? no. >> and i think it's you know, i don't want to say that we've gone so far. we can't bring it back. but, you know, i think you've spoken about in the past as well. this is a social contagion now and it's very difficult once it's at full flow and the pace that it's going to then pull it back and i and i think that some educators are too scared to speak out. they've spoken to me privately that they don't want to teach this. yes. or they're afraid that, you know, the pupil themselves who has identified as what whatever

has identified as what whatever has all the cards and that they're worried that they're going to, you know, lose their job as a result of this. so there's a lot of fear in play. and when you're afraid of your your job, your reputation and when you're afraid of your yourjob, your reputation and your job, your reputation and everything else, then i think , everything else, then i think, you know, people stay quiet and then you're you're a conservative councillor. >> but a lot of people or some people from labour have also raised this, this issue as well. rosie duffield most notably. but of course, she hasn't had any apologies whatsoever from keir starmer about the way that she's been treated by some fellow parliamentarians. so this is something that crosses over from left to right. this is really not about left and right, is it? >> no, it's not, it's not, you know, political at all in that aspect. you know, there's a lot of us out there and i know rosie and you know, we want to support each other because actually this is the protection of children. and that shouldn't have a label of a party at all. and we get labelled far right for saying this. actually, no, we're saying that our priority and it should be everyone's priority is to protect children and keep children as children, because we know from the cass report, what the eventual thing that will happen and that will be the

sterilisation of our children. >> so you mentioned the cass review and really that has been a game changer, hasn't it? yeah. and even in the in the interim , and even in the in the interim, cass review, you had the point that social transitioning in other words referring to a pupil as opposite sex pronouns or a different name, that that was not a neutral act and that risks embedding in this self—perception, which can lead to all sorts of medical issues later on. do you think, though , later on. do you think, though, with the rigorous evidence of the cass review , that people are the cass review, that people are going to have to change their minds on this? >> i think there needs to be an appetite for it. i think people have realised that it's gone so far now . it's how do you you far now. it's how do you you know, we see this with lots of other scandals. how do you then say i was wrong and i come from this, from doing a complete 180 anyway because i had completely different opinion until i thought, well, i'm going to read up on what the others are saying and then i change my opinion on it. so i was a couple of years ago going, well, let people leave. why are you coming for it? and i was saying all this stuff that is now said at me, and i just happen to read a couple of books and then thought, oh, actually, there's something in it. >> so that's a real issue, isn't

it? because i think a lot of the people who are are such cheerleaders for gender identity ideology actually know very little about it. and if they were to and i wonder if sometimes they think i'd better not look into it in case i have to change my mind because they see the way that people are like jk rowling are demonised for speaking the truth on this. >> yeah, and it's scary because even at a low level and i've spoken to my member of parliament is tom hunt, and he's , you know, he's quite active as well on it. and he said, you know, we both said that the activists that we've had to face and we do as politicians and very low level , there's nothing very low level, there's nothing quite like the, the tiaras as it's a trans rights activist. yeah. sorry. yeah. the it's a very scary mob, actually, when you're on their radar and i've faced that myself. >> and of course, the common accusation is that any concerns must be evidence of hatred , must be evidence of hatred, fascism, even bigotry, all of the rest of it. and that's something that no one wants to be accused of. no. >> and, you know, the threat of you should have your kids taken away from you because you come from a place of hate. that's you know what i've experienced. and it's, you know, that's

unnerving. you know, my kids are my world. yes, do you think that, i mean , let's assume that, i mean, let's assume labour are going to get in next time. i think they probably are . time. i think they probably are. do you think what's going to happen with this situation? because starmer has already suggested that they want to make it easier for people to change their gender? yeah. are they going to try and roll back this guidance from the tories ? guidance from the tories? >> i think that will be the greatest tragedy that we will see is that, you know, if labour do come in and they do what they've said they were going to do , then that will be a huge do, then that will be a huge tragedy for our children. and that's my main focus, what you do as an adult, i think that's a completely different issue. and as a women's rights activist, i have a different issue there. but it will be the safety of our children. and so we really need to think about that. i don't know whether because there's so many people speaking up about it, whether we will, as parents, allow this to happen. but my plea is to parents is to look at what's being taught in schools and really rethink about the consequences, because we all come from a place of love, even even parents who support social transitioning. you're all coming from a place of love. we're just

doing our best as parents, but please really think about the consequences of it . and because consequences of it. and because some of this stuff is really irreversible and speak to , you irreversible and speak to, you know, look at the interviews from detransitioners and the pain and suffering that they've experienced as well. and as soon as parents go, you're not coming for my children. that's when the great power is. so labour or no laboun great power is. so labour or no labour, so long as parents can speak out and say, you're not doing this to our children, i think we can overcome it. >> sam murray, thanks ever so much for joining >> sam murray, thanks ever so much forjoining me. really appreciate it. so next on free speech nation, author timandra harkness will be here to tell us about her new book , technology about her new book, technology is not the problem the ultimate history of our relationship with technology and how it has shaped our world today. we'll be back in just a few minutes

>> on mark dolan tonight in the big story were nigel farage's comments on sky news about some brits not sharing our values. islamophobes we'll hear from both sides in my take at ten,

i'll be dealing with shocking allegations about one of the professional dancers on bbc's strictly plus royal author angela levin on a big new headache for meghan markle. we're live at nine. >> welcome back to free speech nation. later in the show, i'm going to be turning agony uncle with the help of my panel, bruce devlin and josh howie. and we'll help you to deal with your unfiltered dilemmas. so just send us an email @gbnews. com and we're going to help you deal with all of your issues. but now , as you probably noticed, we live in a world where technology plays a large and large role. from our smartphones to the amazing growth of artificial intelligence, there are huge questions to be asked about much of that technology . for example, of that technology. for example, why do we willingly hand over our personal data so we can easily be targeted by algorithms and other marketing methods ? and other marketing methods? similarly, do we do all this just so that we can shop more

easily online? well, author timandra harkness seeks to answer some of those questions in her new book, technology is not the problem. and timandra harkness joins me now. welcome to the show. hi. thank you for joining me. now, the title of your book, i have it here. technology is not the problem. it sounds like quite a clear statement of intent, actually, in the book itself, you're a bit more ambivalent about technology, aren't you? well, yeah. >> i mean, it's quite a long book, so i do have to unpack the problem with a bit more nuance, but i think i went for that title, which was originally the subtitle, because it's a bit like this is what it said, you know, it does what it says on the tin. yes. technology is not the tin. yes. technology is not the problem because we're the problem. yes. and where the problem? because we are obsessed with ourselves and having ourselves reflected back to us and the technology just does that. so perhaps you could talk us through the key argument of the book then? >> i mean, you're talking about the way in which we've become, you know, dependent on technology. we sort of outsource a lot of stuff. we're accepting our data sharing. but what this means is that the computers and the algorithms are creating

versions of us that are tailored, i suppose, and that what that we've become dependent on that in some ways, yes. >> i mean, yeah, you're exactly right. they collect data about us from everything we do because everything we do involves digital data mostly. and then it will build a profile like a virtual andrew. and then it will target virtual andrew with not just adverts, but also news feeds, entertainments, everything. even, you know, even your travel plans. you use an app your travel plans. you use an app and it will tailor your to travel you know, here's, here's the convenient route for you, but i started off trying to describe how that happens. and then i just got more and more interested in. but why? why is this the technology that we have? because we do kind of know now that our data is being collected all the time, and we kind of hate it. and find it creepy, but we also keep going back. creepy, but we also keep going back . so in another way, i think back. so in another way, i think we like it. and so i just started zooming out and zooming out and going, all right, well, what is this world we live in? this is the technology . but what this is the technology. but what is it about the world that makes us so susceptible to technology

that promises that everything in your life will be personalised to you, andrew, and you're uniquely discerning . taste in uniquely discerning. taste in whatever biscuits . whatever biscuits. >> yeah, you've read me, right. but that's the problem is that, you know, we constantly complain about these alexas that we have in our, in our house or the way in our, in our house or the way in which our smartphones are basically concocting versions of us, but we still do it. we still go back to it, which suggests, as you suggest in the book, there is some kind of need that we have. yeah, not that the technology is creating the need, but that we have created the technology to satisfy the need. yeah, exactly. >> and i mean, obviously the technology is not actually tailored for our convenience necessarily. it's tailored for the people who who have made the technology or the customers of the people, whether those are, you know, people selling advertising or whatever. but it but it has it's tapped into something which is this very deep need in us, in society to have our identities affirmed. because because we're not entirely sure who we are. it's like, on the one hand, who you are is the most important thing.

and if someone disrespects who you are or doesn't see you the way you want to be seen, that's, you know, i think people genuinely feel that as a personal attack. yes. like they no longer really exist . but and no longer really exist. but and so but we're not exactly sure who we are unless that's reflected back to us all the time and we get constant confirmation that we are who we want to be seen as. so that's very interesting because, i mean, you mentioned sam smith, for example, as one example of someone who announced that he wanted to be referred to with they them pronouns. >> everyone went along with it because it signals something new in society, doesn't it? something more about, i suppose, the elevation of the self or the commodification of the self? >> yeah, commodification of the self is a very good way to put it, actually. i mean, i included sam smith because sam smith's 2019 announcement on, i think, instagram was actually really eloquent, actually spelled out perfectly what this is all about. and it ended with something like , i hope you can something like, i hope you can see me like i see myself now . see me like i see myself now. interesting. and i think that just sums it up perfectly. it's

like we want to be seen, like we see ourselves and then design algorithms that say everything in this algorithm has been planned because we have looked at you and how you are and what you've done, and we're going to feed you back exactly what reflects who you are. >> it sounds like narcissism. oh it's complete narcissism. >> i mean, i was reading christopher lasch's wonderful book, the age of narcissism the culture of narcissism. culture of narcissism, and it's just it's like he's describing today. he says the narcissist sees the world as a mirror , and world as a mirror, and everything has to be reflected back to you. and then you look at look at the front of his book. and it came out in 1979. wow so it predates the internet. it predates social media. yeah. yes. >> oh, i mean, narcissist is an ancient tale. well, yeah . ancient tale. well, yeah. >> narcissist goes back to ancient greece, but but this idea that we see the world as a mirror that should reflect us back to ourselves goes back before the technology. >> yes, of course, but there the technology is the perfect way to keep feeding that, because it it gives you these little rewards, but never quite enough that you

90, but never quite enough that you go, okay, now i feel completely satisfied. >> i know who i am, i can just walk away now and but there's a problem here, isn't there? >> i mean, you describe how these algorithms are creating a digital version of us, but you yourself took a psychometric test and did not come back as you were a 30 year old man. >> a 30 year old man. >> a 30 year old man. >> yes, yes, so i did. i'm not actually. no, i'm not a 30 year old man. so but twitter thing getting it wrong . oh yes. no, no getting it wrong. oh yes. no, no they get it wrong all the time. because because it's not like, you know, if i know you and you know me, we're two humans kind of interacting , going like, of interacting, going like, well, i know what it's like to be human and you're a human. so i'm going to assume that being you is a bit like being me , but you is a bit like being me, but but these are not humans. these are machines that just taking statistical models and saying, well, so this is why it thinks i'm a 30 year old man, because statistically , other people who statistically, other people who gave similar answers to me and whose social media activity was similar to mine, yes , were 30 similar to mine, yes, were 30 year old men. or maybe they just said they were 30 year old men,

you know, they they don't actually know. >> they use that to predict your tastes, don't they? >> yes, exactly. yes. so it's like , well, you know, you are like, well, you know, you are similar to these other people in this massive multi dimensional mathematical model we're building. and that's what we know about you. >> so what are the downsides of that? i mean a lot of people complain don't they. when they see adverts pop up about things they've been talking about recently. and they get very nervous about that. they think this is very like they're being stalked or something. but on the other hand, it's quite handy because people are only sending me information about stuff i want to know about. so what's the downside? >> well, i think there's a narrower downside, which is that if you only get stuff about things you're already interested in, your tastes aren't going to expand , and you will actually expand, and you will actually become more and more similar to the profile of you that is being targeted. >> you turn into the avatar they've created . they've created. >> yeah, because that's the universe that's being created around you. yes. but i think there's a more profound problem, which is that you become a passive version of yourself. you're no longer driving your life. you're no longer saying, well, what do i want to do with my life? what's the impact i

want to have on the world? you're only thinking about, you know, who am i and what is this saying about me? what? what i'm putting out there? what is this saying about me? what are other people going to think about me, how does my life reflect me? yes. and you're not actually out there creating anything in the world. and so i don't think you can really be a complete person like that . ironically, the more like that. ironically, the more obsessed you are with yourself and the world reflecting you back to yourself, well, you can't grow exactly. and you can't grow exactly. and you can't change. you can't. i mean, if you think about the other great thing about humans knowing each other is somebody might see something in you that you don't see in yourself. so they might say, actually, i think you have great potential . and, you know, great potential. and, you know, i could teach great teachers. see that. they say, you know, you could actually you've got a bit of talent. you could be a great writer, you could be a great writer, you could be a great musician, you could be good at football. i can work with you to bring that person into existence who doesn't exist yet. but the algorithms are not going to do that because they, like, this is who you are. and now we're going to give you stuff that's designed to please

that person you already are. >> so if it's the case that the algorithms are simply cultivating a version of you which is effectively narrowing your potential, what can we actually, on a practical level, do about that? because do we not live in a world where we are now reliant on these kinds of systems? can we break this ? can systems? can we break this? can we say, no, i'm going to turn off the smartphone? no, i'm not going to have an alexa in my house. no, i'm going to ignore what big tech tells me i should be. >> it's not very practical to do that. i really don't. i think only very few privileged people can actually dispense all that, because that is how so much of our lives is carried on. what i think is more important is that you change your attitude to it and say, i am going to use this to do the thing that i think is important. i'm going to use this to connect with other humans and do things with other humans and, and decide why i'm using it in what for. so rather than just going , well, actually this what for. so rather than just going, well, actually this is all very convenient. and i get here's a menu of things that somebody has already selected for me. and i'm just going to pick one of those things, which

comes back to the title of your book, technology is not the problem. >> it's the way that we choose to use it. this is what you're arguing? >> yeah, basically, yeah. the problem, the problem is the way that we lean on technology to reassure us about who we are, that we are to see me , how i see that we are to see me, how i see myself. whereas you i mean, the technology is amazing . you think technology is amazing. you think about you can get information about you can get information about anything humans have done almost, and you can communicate instantly. people all over the world just to think of the things that we can do with it. >> yes. well and finally, on this, i mean, this idea that if we have technology to support our lives, it will free us up to become more artistic, more creative. what oscar wilde was saying in in the soul of man under socialism that we can, you know, we can effectively the way the ancient greeks had slaves so they could spend all their time philosophising . right. is this philosophising. right. is this actually real? >> well, it's not at the moment . >> well, it's not at the moment. that's the thing. it's this lovely phrase, digital athens that instead of instead of the slaves doing the work so that the male citizens could be philosophers and taught politics, we will have the robots to do that. yes. and

actually, i think it's more like digital wolf hall, where you've got a house full of servants like alexa and your smartphone. everything but they're actually working for other masters. so yes, they'll bring what you order, but they're also reporting back on you to companies, probably in silicon valley and probably filtering what comes to you to please other masters that we will never know about. yeah. >> when you put it like that, it does sound sinister, i have to be honest. but look, congratulations on the book. it's out now, isn't it? >> it's out now. yes, it was out from thursday, so wonderful. very hot off the press. >> fantastic. timandra, thanks so much forjoining me today. i really appreciate it. >> lovely to see you. thank you. >> lovely to see you. thank you. >> just a reminder to andrew's book. it's called technology is not the problem and it is available at all good bookshops and probably at the bad ones too. next up on free speech nafion too. next up on free speech nation , one of my panellists nation, one of my panellists tonight, josh howie, has been writing this week about his concerns regarding what jewish kids are being taught about genden kids are being taught about gender. we're going to be talking all about that. please do not go anywhere.

>> welcome back to free speech nafion >> welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. >> so, one of my panel tonight, josh howie, was asked by one of his children last year if he knew that there were over 100 different sexes. it turns out the child had been at a session run by keshet uk, which is an education and training charity with a mission to ensure that jewish lgbt+ people and their families are included throughout jewish life in the uk. that's a direct quote from them. now josh decided to ask a few questions about this and he's back with me now to tell me what he found out. josh, welcome back to the show. we're talking about keshet uk . so do you want to tell us uk. so do you want to tell us who they are and what they do? >> so they're an lgbt+ organisation as you said. you read sort of their their manifesto and i agree with it. of course i want lgbt young

people and their families to be feel welcome and part of the jewish community, which they are. but this is what, in my experience, as a parent of five and with children from age six to, 14, within these jewish schools and institutions and synagogue is that, i believe keshet uk is the main, means by which gender ideology is being spread amongst young jewish kids. >> what specifically are they telling the kids? >> well, this is this is the hard bit. this is what i can't get. so that session happened, last year, it was for my nine year old and my 11 year old. their one year apart. and they had like this afternoon session where they were taught this, this 100 sexist thing. they were also taught or told about pansexuals and various other things . and i immediately things. and i immediately emailed the school and i was like, well, what exactly was taught the facilitator or the person who was like liaison there said she was very adamant that she'd never heard 100 sexes. i'm like, well , was it sexes. i'm like, well, was it 100 genders? like both my kids were very adamant that it was 100 sexes that they'd heard,

well, one 100 sex is just plain, factually wrong. >> 100 genders is an ideological >>100 genders is an ideological faith. and again, it's contested either way. either way, there are problems here. >> absolutely. and i was like, okay, well, can you get me some slides? can you tell me exactly what it is? and they were like, yeah, we'll get it for you. and then i kept on asking and then eventually they're like, no, i'm afraid that we can't actually get it because it's sort of private. yeah. intellectual property or whatever. then, a couple of months ago, my now 12 year old, who was then 11, was in synagogue doing bar mitzvah classes, and he had a two hour session on with a video from a trans woman talking about her journey into being a trans woman . and then they were discussing some passage and then again , some passage and then again, they were talking about all these passages stuff. now, i don't believe the uk provided the information for that one, but i queried with the synagogue. they sent the information off to keshet uk , information off to keshet uk, who then said twice, supposedly yes, this material is appropriate for even for ten year old girls. >> i think a lot of people are going to be surprised by this because they would have thought

that religious groups, synagogues, for instance, like you mentioned, i've spoken to a baptist minister in america who says that woke politics is coming in to their church and they're doing stuff about intersectional readings of the bible. but why is it that this belief system has the power to infect established religious groups? >> because the leaders of our institutions have taken their eye off the ball, and they want to be good and kind, like every human being wants to be. and they think that this organisation knows their stuff . organisation knows their stuff. this is what they were set up for. and they go. they trust them to come in and they trust them to come in and they trust them with my children, with our community children. i just want to say a very quick thing here that as we saw from the cass report, autistic kids are much higher rate to to, go through this process to become, to down gender ideology , a much higher gender ideology, a much higher risk. and there's a very high causation of, of, of autism in the jewish community, much higher than the national average. so jewish kids are

particularly at risk. i know families whose children have been going through this. so i think it's partly our leaders of our institutions, frankly, taking their eyes off the ball and, and it's, and it's so frustrating as just a parent like this, of course, is part of my job. but but my day to day life is spent with the kids, and i'm just trying to find out what they have learned. >> so this is one of the problems because i spoke to councillor sam murray earlier today, and she was talking about how when she was asking for details about sex education at her school, her primary school, her school, her primary school, her kids primary school, they were saying they couldn't reveal it. and eventually she saw it and was able to withdraw her kids. is that something that people should be doing that jewish parents should be doing as well? >> well, yeah, i mean, i think i feel like in this the gender wars, whatever you want to call it, the argument has been won . it, the argument has been won. the cass report is now out, and then also the government now has provided this guidance saying that children should not be taught this stuff. yeah, but the war is not won because it's embedded. it's there, it's happening. and i saw that

interview with sam and as you're saying at the end that parents can say enough is enough. it's too late. like, this has already happened a bunch of times. >> and the problem is a lot of people are trying or activists politically are trying to dismiss the cass review. this rigorous four year review, which comes out with with a very compassionate overview. i mean, it's not it's not at all what they've described. one comedian described it as far right, for goodness sake. >> yeah. and it's so frustrating. so though people want an easy life, i get it. yeah. and also people just sort of take buzzwords that they see from the media, as you say, far right or bigoted or whatever it is. and people also want to feel good about themselves. helen joyce, that she did those a clip where she says that the parents will never let go of this ideology because if they have trans kids, because otherwise it would to be accept that they had been part of their children's lives being ruined , essentially. lives being ruined, essentially. but i think that it's just far further than that, in that i feel like anybody who's bought into this because that through ego, they will just not allow themselves to re—evaluate the information . and when it is our

information. and when it is our children who are at risk . information. and when it is our children who are at risk. i mean, the frustration here, because i've been dealing with this, not just dealing with people online and the usual pubuc people online and the usual public sphere of all of this, but dealing with this at home within these institutions, within these institutions, within my synagogue, within my kids school, which are brilliant in all other ways . but when in all other ways. but when you're trying to explain this stuff and it seems to be like i say, coming from this organisation, that doesn't seem to have accountability . vie to have accountability. vie keshet uk worked with the chief rabbion keshet uk worked with the chief rabbi on a report for helping schools, and one of the things that they came up with together was that schools could withhold from parents if children were changing their gender identity. >> well, that's not in accordance with the guidelines the government's issuing. >> absolutely. so but that was what came through. so i just want all i want to know is what are you actually teaching? and if you are teaching this gender ideology stuff, stop, please . i ideology stuff, stop, please. i want kids trans get anybody to feel safe and at home within the jewish community. but what i

don't want is my kids to be brainwashed. at least. i mean, they can be brainwashed with god and all that, but, i just i and all that, but, ijust i don't want to be. >> indoctrination are fine. >> indoctrination are fine. >> that's all good. but if you're going to do the brainwashing, just stick to the remit of that stuff, it's and it just takes up so much time and emails and meetings with people, and i just want to just i'm just and i just want to just i'm just a lazy person. i just want to trust that my kids are safe and they're not. and then this week, this thing was published in the jewish chronicle, talking about the keshet uk. and then my, my, my now ten year old, he had a thing by by called, the anne frank trust. and he goes into this two day session all about discrimination. again, i want my kids to treat everyone equally. of course i do. what's the first thing they do? write out your pronouns. write out if you're non—binary or other, and then they spend the whole rest of the day talking about non—binary and comparing it to being black, disabled, jewish. that is not an inherent characteristic . inherent characteristic. >> okay, well josh, thanks,

josh.josh >> okay, well josh, thanks, josh. josh is very clearly , josh. josh is very clearly, rightly wound up about this, we do have a statement from, kesha uk, which i will read, after the break because i think we need to hear that side of the story as well. >> but look, there is plenty more to come on free speech nafion more to come on free speech nation this evening i'm going to be talking to maya forstater and michael foran about the irc ruling about whistleblowers who allege affirmative action is taking place at ucla medical school. and i'm going to be taking some more questions from the panel for my wonderful from my wonderful studio audience. see you in a moment. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar , the sponsors of weather solar, the sponsors of weather on gb news. >> hello there. welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast from the met office. looking ahead to bank holiday monday and its remaining unsettled across the uk with some further showers at times. reason for the ancestral weather is this area of low pressure. it's going to hang around all weekend and into

next week, maintaining this unsettled feel for the rest of sunday. still the risk of some further heavy rain, especially across parts of scotland , but across parts of scotland, but down towards central and eastern parts of england, it will turn dner parts of england, it will turn drier and clearer. so here a bit of a chill in the air first thing on bank holiday monday. but elsewhere under the cloud and rain, temperatures holding up above 10 to 11 degrees. so as i mentioned, some clear skies initially down towards eastern and central england. so some sunshine here first thing in the morning. further west we will see some showers and they will migrate their way eastwards as the day goes on for northern england and northern ireland. again, a mixture of some cloud and a few bits of brightness. but again, some rain around southern scotland. the risk of some persistent rain still here, with a mixture of bright spells and a few showers further north. but it's in fact across parts of northern scotland where we do start to see the sunshine heat. the ground, we will see some

heavy and thundery downpours developing to watch out for some thunderstorms here as we go through the course of the day elsewhere. still the risk of some showers, but they will be fewer and further between compared to sunday and also a little bit lighter. but for all of us it will be a slightly cooler day i think. highs reaching around 1617 possibly. maybe the odd spot seeing 18 degrees onto tuesday, a bright start in the east, but another band of rain will spread in dunng band of rain will spread in during the course of the day, turning brighter but showery behind it. but all the time, temperatures reaching only at best, average remaining unsettled. on wednesday and thursday, but hints of something a bit drier and brighter coming through as we head towards next weekend . weekend. >> that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers , sponsors of boxt boilers, sponsors of weather on

gb news. >> there's plenty more still to come on. free speech nation this week. maya for starter and michael forum will be here shortly to discuss the significance of the ruling against the edinburgh rape crisis centre . and myself and my crisis centre. and myself and my comedian panel will be answering questions from this brilliant studio audience. but let's get a news update first from ray addison . addison. >> many thanks. our top stories tonight. the raf pilot who died when his spitfire crashed near raf coningsby , has been named as raf coningsby, has been named as squadron leader mark long, police and emergency services rushed to the scene on lanark roadin rushed to the scene on lanark road in lincolnshire just before 120 yesterday afternoon. described as a passionate professional aviator for the last four years he'd been a pilot with the battle of britain memorial flight. the ministry of defence has described the incident as a tragic accident and an investigation into its cause is now underway . eight

cause is now underway. eight people have been taken to hospital after severe turbulence on a qatar airways flight from doha to dublin, dublin airport said. emergency services, including police and fire and rescue, met the plane as it landed safely shortly before 1:00 this afternoon. the injuries to six passengers and six crew occurred as they were flying over turkey . an urgent flying over turkey. an urgent search is underway for two vulnerable teenage girls, who are believed to be around 130 miles away from home, police say they're extremely concerned for they're extremely concerned for the safety of 12 year old grace and 15 year old abby. both were reported missing from worthing, west sussex, and last seen in gofing west sussex, and last seen in goring by sea on friday morning. it's believed that they're using pubuc it's believed that they're using public transport to travel around the country and may have been seen in birmingham city centre . the proposed return of centre. the proposed return of compulsory national service was rejected by a defence minister

just days before the tories pledged to make it law if the party wins the election. andrew morrison insisted that there were no plans to reintroduce the policy and said it could damage morale if potentially unwilling recruits were forced to serve. then, as we now know , just two then, as we now know, just two days later, rishi sunak outlined these plans to make all 18 year olds choose between serving in the army or volunteering for their local community. labour has dismissed the plan as a headune has dismissed the plan as a headline grabbing gimmick. the shadow chancellor says there will be no increase to tax or national insurance under a labour government . rachel reeves labour government. rachel reeves is promising a tough set of spending rules that she says will grow the economy while keeping taxes , inflation and keeping taxes, inflation and mortgages as low as possible. the tories say their plan is currently working, but labour argues that people are feeling worse off more than 500 migrants have crossed the channel in small boats so far this bank houday small boats so far this bank holiday weekend, home office

data shows that 227 crossed illegally from france yesterday follows another 288 arrivals on friday. that takes the total so far this year to nearly 10,400. if you want the latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts. simply scan the qr code on the right hand side of your screen or go to gbnews.com/alerts . back or go to gbnews.com/alerts. back to free speech nation . to free speech nation. >> welcome back to free speech nafion >> welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. >> so before we get back with some questions from the audience, i do want to read that statement from keshet uk regarding my discussion with josh howie about the apparent teaching of gender ideology to jewish school children. so they said keshet uk is an education and training charity whose mission is to ensure that jewish lgbt+ people and their families

are included in jewish life in the uk. keshet uk's decade of successful partnership with jewish schools and organisations is built on trust. all sessions and their content are agreed with our partners in advance and are regularly reviewed in line with uk legislation and statutory guidance . so we've got statutory guidance. so we've got a wonderful studio audience here, so let's get some questions . this one first has questions. this one first has been emailed in by one of our viewers. it comes from anna leese. anneliese asks were shakespeare's plays written by a woman ? okay, so the answer is woman? okay, so the answer is no, his name is william. but nevertheless, this is because jodi picoult is it picou the author, jodi picoult or picoult ? author, jodi picoult or picoult? who knows? she claims that shakespeare's plays were written by a woman . have you read about by a woman. have you read about this, josh? yes. is it because i don't care? she's apparently quite famous. >> yeah . no, she's a she's quite famous. >> yeah. no, she's a she's a big author. yeah. what the hell is she talking about? >> she's by her own admission, she says she went down the rabbit hole and she read when she read the shakespeare, he didn't educate his two

daughters. then she was like, there's no way that he could have written these protagonists, these female protagonists that were somewhat sort of proto feminist. >> that doesn't make sense. >> that doesn't make sense. >> no, no, totally. i mean, he wasn't educated . that's the wasn't educated. that's the thing. like he never went to italy or egypt or anything. it's called imagination. i love that. >> but she said, yeah. she said, because he'd never been to egypt. he couldn't have written antony and cleopatra because there were no guidebooks with details. yeah, there were sources there was, there was plutarch. yeah. he read a lot. there's research . yeah, there's there's research. yeah, there's research. there's a thing called reading. what is. what is it about shakespeare that people are always trying to say? that it must have been written by someone else, and it's almost like they can't bear the idea that some middle class guy from from warwickshire was able to write about lords and ladies. is it just snobbery? >> i don't know if i'm going to be really honest with you. right. but i thought the jodie in question was the one that was in question was the one that was in killing eve, and the only real dalliance i've had in shakespeare is seeing danny minogue. i'm sorry to mention it, but in macbeth, danny minogue was in macbeth in the fringe . one of the witches? no,

fringe. one of the witches? no, she was lady macbeth. >> oh, was she indeed? yeah. punching above her weight a little bit there, isn't she? i mean, did you think that's fairly rude? >> did you see the production? no, no. maybe >> maybe she's a new judi dench. i don't know, but i'm going to doubt it. >> judi dench on qvc. but for petites, do you think dannii minogue as lady macbeth, i'll take it. and anything but. i mean, the thing is, i'm a brilliant writer and i'm a woman, but no , i'm just. you woman, but no, i'm just. you know what? i'm just not going to bother writing my genius plays and putting them out in the world, because in 400 years time, someone's going to be like, oh, yeah, it was definitely someone else who wrote. >> what really annoys me about this is that this argument keeps coming back over and over again every now and then someone says, oh, william shakespeare couldn't have written his plays. he definitely did. and the reason we know he did is because not one of his contemporaries suggested otherwise. everyone who lived at the same time as him thought it was him. so, you know, you're gonna have to prove why she's saying that. >> it's a joke. she was like, oh, it was kind of like an in—joke by not saying that someone. it's mental. >> it's so pathetic. well i don't think she wrote her books.

how about that? wow. yeah. i mean, am i allowed to say that or is that. >> no, you just have. and i'm for it. >> yeah, for you're it. yeah. i think it was someone else. anyway, let's get to on another question. this comes from our twitter account. it's from janet. i love the name janet. there aren't enough janet's out there, are they? >> there's a bar in edinburgh called planet janet. >> oh, there is a bin there. yeah, yeah, it's a special. it's also one called cc blooms, based on a bette midler character from beaches. so we all know what kind of bar. >> that didn't make me cry, it's very upsetting. i limit myself to once a year. >> yeah. it's horrendous. okay, we're going to move on. she's all right anyway , this is the all right anyway, this is the question from janet. do you choose plants based on cultural heritage? okay, do you know about this one, josh? >> yeah . this is a nutter. >> yeah. this is a nutter. i mean, sorry, a person you're talking about. janet. no, janet may be a nutter, no. this is a woman wrote an article, i think, for bbc gardening or something like . yes. and basically saying like. yes. and basically saying that if you take. because we got a lot of plants when during, dunng a lot of plants when during, during the british empire and colonialism and they're a lot like people would go out and get

all this amazing, this amazing fauna and flora and bring it back, that if we use it now or we use it to juxtapose, juxtapose with home grown stuff, then it's like a cultural appropriation. what i don't know, because like kew garden is this full of plants from around the world. >> we meant to just pack them up and ship them back. >> i think that's the idea of it. it's like, how dare we so use the stuff from elsewhere as cornrows ? cornrows? >> it's what ferns, ferns, the plants as cornrows. >> i don't know if they're from cornwall or not, but no no no cornrows. oh, you're talking plant talk. i don't understand . plant talk. i don't understand. >> no, no, no, but it's cultural appropriation. >> oh, i see what you mean. >> oh, i see what you mean. >> the hairstyle. yes. >> the hairstyle. yes. >> oh, yeah. well, they're saying it's the same thing. >> yeah. so i mean, really it's a word that i can't use on this show at this time, but yeah, i don't agree with it at all. i think it's utter nonsense , but think it's utter nonsense, but it's like, how is this going to be pushed into every single the whole point about plants is that they don't seeds sort of spread in the air and they pollinate, don't they? >> isn't that the idea? they evolve. >> we know nothing about this,

do we? i imagine so, just to say again, it's more ridiculousness. oh, we've got another email in. this is from georgina. georgina says do gay people struggle with the concept of voter id? okay yeah, i love this because nancy kelly, who was the former ceo of stonewall , tweeted out saying stonewall, tweeted out saying that gay people need to ensure they've got their photo id to vote. she says disenfranchised ? vote. she says disenfranchised? yes. she says that gay people are one of the groups that voter id projects disenfranchise. in other words, gay people find it tough to get id, do you? >> because most of the gay people i know are on holiday constantly. they love their passport, but seriously, they don't like that it's blue. but they do have their passport. they love the first class lounge. >> well, this isn't so. we've had a similar thing in america where various democrat politicians have said that voter id is a concept, is racist. and id is a concept, is racist. and i remember seeing an interview going around the streets of new york asking various black people, saying , do you struggle people, saying, do you struggle getting id? and they're like, what are you talking about? yeah, we know how to get id well, first of all, it's the first that i learned that homosexuals are allowed to travel. >> have the vote. we have the vote. we do. okay. that was that

was news to me. yeah, and you are deeply opposed. indeed. yeah no, but no, it's i mean, it's unbelievably sort of condescending. and there is evidence that people from ethnic minorities that it can affect, voter id. >> no, because they can apply for voter id as well. >> but also this idea that it's not just one idea, there are like 20 ids that are available . like 20 ids that are available. >> the way i think it could could count is if you're, say, your english second language and your english second language and you don't fully understand all the forms and all the rest of it that i get. but just saying someone because of their race or their sexual orientation is not going to be able to apply for id. i find it patronising. >> who is nancy kelly? >> who is nancy kelly? >> so she was the ceo of stonewall right? which used to be a gay rights charity, now works against gay people's interests. okay back in the day it was gay rights, you know, and this is the very. so maybe it's connected to that, the fact that maybe they don't like gay people. >> i mean, or it could be this, sort of this need to constantly victimise, yeah. create this. >> i just think it's very, very strange . anyway, and we're we're strange. anyway, and we're we're going to go back into our audience now, we've got a question from alex. where is alex? hi, alex. hello. >> recent research by the campaign for real ale have

discovered that 86% of pints are short, measured in our pubs. do you feel we're being deliberately ripped off? and is it your round? alex are you upset about this? >> very. yeah. well, no, i can tell you're indignant as a consumer, josh ? consumer, josh? >> yeah, you you just got a i mean, for alcoholics, it's a big it's a big deal. >> yeah, i can imagine. that's why i came to you. yeah. what do you think about this, i mean, but what do you. what are you meant to do? are you meant to sort of. you have to query people and the bar staff. >> well, i'm surprised at the stats that alex mentioned it seems like a lot of people are doing this. i thought this i mean, this has got to be illegal. i'm sure it adds up over time though. >> it's like 5. and then alcohol being ever more expensive. right. but but at the same time, for me, when i have had a sort of short pint, i'm to just sort of short pint, i'm to just sort of british and you won't say, fill it up, please. no, i'll just be like, thank you. sorry. yeah. >> what about you, bruce? i mean, you're it's never my round, just in case you're wanted. >> i never, but i know i have noficed >> i never, but i know i have noticed that a couple of times.

really? i like a double gin. there's a surprise, i know, nice of you. yes. no. that's true. you've. he's bought my round for the whole evening. that cost him. but you can see. and i'm like up to the top. >> so you. but you would actually say something. yeah but you see josh is a bit more timid than that. >> he would when he was with me, he would, he'd just need a couple of full measured drinks and he'd be okay. >> isn't it? it's just theft. >> isn't it? it's just theft. >> it's. they are charlatans. unbelievable. yeah. shysters >> not all. not all publicans. most fall into this category. just have to say that we've got a question now from howard. howard is emailed in to ask whether star wars has gone. woke and i actually, i couldn't believe this because, well, actually, no , star wars has been actually, no, star wars has been woke for quite a while. i don't know if you saw the last jedi. it was an absolute mess. but this is a new toy that the star wars people have put out. i don't know if we've got an image. if we have, let's have a look. oh, there he is. so this is a rainbow r2d2. although i think he's a different robot. technically it's not r2. it's not like r2—d2 is sort of camped it up. it's a new robot. they've invented who has the pride colours. i don't he's not going to be in any of the films, is he. i wouldn't thought possibly.

>> possibly. i think i saw in the paper at r2 lgbtq. >> is that really. >> is that really. >> it might be. >> it might be. >> that would make more sense of it, wouldn't it? >> they bring out these toys and this is the thing is that as a parent walking through the toy shops after the fact , what shops after the fact, what you'll see, unfortunately, or is these toys left over, right. so when they try and like with rey, when they try and like with rey, when they, you know, had a female protagonist who was who was a good character or started out so before they ruined it all. but then you would sort of see no one's buying them, no one's would buy them. and they would get sort of more and more on sale and cheaper, you know, like paw patrol got a non—binary dog in it. and what did people not buy them? >> i'm assuming not. >> i'm assuming not. >> yeah. so it's again, more virtue signalling. i don't understand why. but then but then i bought i did buy a gay stitch . what stitch. stitch is stitch. what stitch. stitch is a really brilliant cartoon film . i really brilliant cartoon film. i bought one for the kids. i bought, yeah, i bought what do you make a gay stitch? yeah, well, lgbt in the in the colours from like it was pop. it looked really cool, like these pop

little dolls, but it seems pointless to me anyway, because r2—d2 and c—3po are clearly gay anyway. >> so what's the point? >> so what's the point? >> yeah, i thought that as well. yeah. so i don't understand why top, josh, we don't say language like that before. okay, luckily , like that before. okay, luckily, no one will know what you meant. who's the most important ? who's the most important? >> yes, yes, it was r2—d2. >>— >> yes, yes, it was r2—d2. >> okay, let's move on very quickly. look. next up on free speech nation . after the break, speech nation. after the break, maya forstater and michael foran will be here to discuss the ruling that the edinburgh rape crisis centre discriminated against an employee for her gender critical beliefs. please don't go anywhere.

>> on mark dolan tonight. whoever wins the election will receive an unexpected boost. brexit. with a booming economy and investment through the roof, our next prime minister can count their blessings that we're out . in my count their blessings that we're out. in my take at ten, i'll be deaung out. in my take at ten, i'll be dealing with shocking allegations about one of the professional dancers on bbc's strictly , plus royal author strictly, plus royal author angela levin on a big new

headache for meghan markle. we're live at nine. >> welcome back to free speech nafion >> welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. a tribunal a tribunal ruled earlier this week that a rape crisis counsellor who worked at a support centre for survivors of abuse, was unfairly dismissed for expressing gender critical views. the tribunal said there was, quote, ample evidence that ross adams was unfairly treated and subjected to a kafkaesque internal disciplinary process by managers at the edinburgh rape crisis centre. so i'm joined now by co—founder and ceo of sex matters, maya forstater and lecturer in public law at the university of glasgow, michael foran . welcome to the show both. foran. welcome to the show both. maya, i want to come to you first because a lot of people will be hearing this for the first time and thinking, what on earth is going on? a rape crisis centre discriminating against someone for saying that sex is important? what's going on?

>> yes. it's madness. so ross adams was counsellor at edinburgh rape crisis centre and it's an organisation that's adopted. the view that sex isn't real, that the only thing that matters is a person's gender identity. what they say they are. and in 2021, it hired a new ceo, a man called mridul wadhwa , ceo, a man called mridul wadhwa, who identifies as a woman. and this was for a job that was advertised as being a specific job for a woman running a rape crisis centre, they they employed a trans identifying man, and they , who doesn't have man, and they, who doesn't have a gender recognition, who doesn't have a gender recognition certificate. but even if he did, in terms of other people's perceptions and the trust of women who are going there to talk about the, you know, the most awful thing, it doesn't matter whether he has a gender recognition certificate or not, he should not have appued or not, he should not have applied for that job. >> well, also, why do i was on a podcast talking about how women who come along saying that they don't want to be seen by a male counsellor should reframe their

trauma. he was effectively saying that bigots can be sexually assaulted too and they need to work around. well, exactly that, he said. >> big bigots are sexually assaulted too. it was , just assaulted too. it was, just extraordinary. and so when people wrote in to edinburgh rape crisis and said , i'm rape crisis and said, i'm concerned about this, they filed those as hate emails. and so ross adams was working there and she was concerned about this, but also just practically concerned with what she could tell clients who said , am tell clients who said, am i going to be seen by a female counsellor ? and the question in counsellor? and the question in practice was not about the ceo , practice was not about the ceo, but in fact was about one of her colleagues who was a woman who identified as non—binary and had a male sounding name. and she wanted to be able to reassure a client who was going to see this person that , yes, this person is person that, yes, this person is a woman, and trying to answer that question in a sensitive way ended up getting her into an investigation. and they said that that was transphobic .

that that was transphobic. >> i think people are going to be astonished by that simply for asking the question, how can i can i clarify to this, this, this victim ? yeah, that that she this victim? yeah, that that she will only be with women and you would have thought with a rape crisis centre this is a no brainer. i mean , the idea that brainer. i mean, the idea that that men should be there at all just simply doesn't make sense, does it? well, exactly. >> and they'd gone from being a centre that said they were women only to. then they said there are no men here. that was their way of saying , that. yeah, there way of saying, that. yeah, there are no men . way of saying, that. yeah, there are no men. but, you way of saying, that. yeah, there are no men . but, you know, there are no men. but, you know, there may be people who used to be men who now identify as women or non—binary. yes. i mean, it puts rape victims, you know, they ought to be able to trust. absolutely. when they come into that situation and it puts their interests last. and the staff's interests last. and the staff's interest first. >> there's a lot of confusion here, michael , just from a legal here, michael, just from a legal perspective, in terms of what the equality act means and whether people can discriminate in terms of sex, surely it is the case that a centre which is there to support survivors of sexual abuse should be able to

say women only. >> oh yeah. i mean , the equality >> oh yeah. i mean, the equality act itself sets out very clear exceptions that permit sex discrimination to set up services that are designed specifically for people who need them on the basis of sex. and that's what the edinburgh rape crisis centre was set up as initially, that's what the position for ceo was advertised as. it was a specific provision in the equality act that allowed for women only. and what's shocking about this case is that when rape victims then requested female only care , they were female only care, they were turned away and denied support from the service. they were told that they were not suitable for this service . and so you're this service. and so you're deaung this service. and so you're dealing with a context here where ostensibly this is a place that's set up specifically and expressly for female victims of male violence who are told that if they request female only support, that they should go elsewhere. but they didn't even tell those victims where they could go . the only other place could go. the only other place in edinburgh that provided a female only service, which was byers's place. they had a policy

of refusing to point victims. there either. we should clarify. >> so byres place was set up and founded by jk rowling , so that founded by jk rowling, so that there was a single sex service available for victims of rape in scotland, because there wasn't at that point. yeah. and the emails that have been published in the judgement regarding ross adams show that the staff members were furious with jk rowling for doing this, described it as hateful and that , as you say, didn't even refer people on to buyers place where they could have had that service. >> yeah, i mean, it's extraordinary to see, you know, it's quite rare that you get tribunals describing an, disciplinary contact conduct or investigations as kafkaesque. it's not normal to for a tribunal to describe something as a heresy hunt or an attempt to purge an organisation from people who disagree. that was a phrase heresy hunt. >> yes. in the judgement itself. >> yes. in the judgement itself. >> yeah. this this was not something that commentators have added into this. this is what the judges in this tribunal described. what happened. incredible. >> but maya, i mean, it does seem to me you've had your own

case, obviously, which was a landmark case in terms of establishing that the belief that sex is immutable is protected in the equality act. since then, we've had people like jo phoenix , rachel mead, like jo phoenix, rachel mead, you know, all of these court cases do seem to point the same way. why can't activists understand hand that they can't keep breaking the law on this point? somehow the message is not getting through, and employers are turning up and they are defending direct discrimination , which almost discrimination, which almost never happens, you know, employers , have learned that you employers, have learned that you don't do race discrimination, you don't do disability discrimination, but they still somehow think that discriminating, discriminating against people with gender critical beliefs is okay. so you know, just last week, the russell group universities published this statement where they said they would like guidance from the regulator on what illegal speech they can restrict, such as, i think they said racism , homophobia and said racism, homophobia and gender critical speech . so gender critical speech. so there's still thinking that. and

this is just the completely ordinary belief that there are men and there are women. it's not even controversial or clever or fancy or anything , that or fancy or anything, that people should be investigated and disciplined and seen as transphobic and hateful, inherently hateful for saying that. >> so is the only way that we can defeat this. michael, through the through the courts effectively, because it looks as though the courts are at least making the right decisions when it comes to these things. yeah. >> i mean, the courts are striking a pretty fair balance here. i think what we're seeing is that, you know, even in this tribunal, the court was at pains to point out that tolerances, the basis of the law in this area, and it tried to say that it itself was not coming down on one side or another as between the competing views at play here. but on the other hand, you know, these decisions don't make sense if you're genuinely agnostic about whether sex is real and that it might matter in some contexts, like the tribunal in this context said that everybody who was called as a witness for edinburgh rape crisis centre believed that sex was not real and that it was never important in any context.

and it itself determined that sex is important in the context of a rape crisis centre. and so it described the views that were held by those people as extreme as dogmatic. and that's because they had taken a very , very hard they had taken a very, very hard line on this. and the courts are in a position where they're trying to balance competing rights. but at a certain point, you have to recognise that our law does recognise the existence of sex, and it does provide rights based on sex. and when a court is faced with circumstances like a rape crisis centre, it's under an obligation to recognise that too. >> is there a risk, michael, that given that the way in which this ideology has clearly captured major institutions, even a rape crisis centre where they're prioritising ideological thinking over the needs of victims of sexual abuse, is there a risk that the judiciary, that the law itself could become ideologically captured to the point where these sorts of things are not protected? i mean, there's a risk that any institution could become ideologically captured. >> that's a risk. i think , that >> that's a risk. i think, that you have to be cognisant of. i

think what we're seeing throughout the course of the last few years is that the courts have been remarkably resilient to this, and so i think that's a good thing. we're seeing the courts applying the law as the law is, rather than as it's been presented by activist campaigning groups who are misrepresenting . yes. yeah. are misrepresenting. yes. yeah. you were misrepresenting this and not just stonewall. we're seeing a lot of other organisations that are doing so as well, and you're even seeing contexts, you know, in the previous case with mead, social work , england got legal advice work, england got legal advice that seemed to push them towards one direction that maybe would have resulted in them trying to fight a case that any sensible lawyer would have looked at and said, you can't win this. >> yes, samya, can i ask you about this? you know, what do we do, though, about this situation? because it does seem to me as though the more that we push back against it, it doesn't seem to matter that the activists have got this view. they're not going to change this view. so what, since the qatar view, surely it should be game over at this point, shouldn't it? >> it should be. i think it's the responsibility of the government. it has to go back to the government. if you look at edinburgh rape crisis centre, there was failures in the governance of the rape crisis centre, failures by the

regulator, the scottish charities regulator , the charities regulator, the equality and human rights commission has, has done quite good recently, but for a long time didn't clear this up. so it has to go back to the government, say everyone needs to understand that when the law says man and male, it means man, and when it says woman and female, it means it means female. >> but am i wrong in thinking that the government so far has been dragging their heels on this, refusing to clarify that the equality when the equality act says sex, it means sex? >> well, i mean, they were trying and they didn't get to the finish line before the election. so this this now rolls over to the next government. >> and are you confident that the next government will sort this out? >> i hope they will. we're asking every candidate to stand up for single sex services . it's up for single sex services. it's got to come down to the government to stand up for this . government to stand up for this. >> is it also the case, though, that with something as egregious as this, the idea that there's a man running a rape crisis centre, if you tell most people, they'll think you're making it up. similarly, they'll probably think women in or rapists in

women's prisons. that doesn't sound real men winning gold medals in women's races. that doesn't sound real. it's part of the problem that it all just seems so fantastical that getting raising awareness actually is quite difficult. >> yes, absolutely . and he's >> yes, absolutely. and he's still running the rape crisis centre even after losing this, this tribunal, there's been no accountability , you know, and so accountability, you know, and so now, you know, we're seeing these big investigations at the post office scandal. i think there will be eventually a pubuc there will be eventually a public inquiry about this scandal. yes but but before we get there, we have to get to clarity about the law. >> and is his position tenable as as the ceo of a rape crisis centre following the damning judgement, as you say, kafkaesque was the phrase used by by the judge. >> yeah, not only that, i mean, the tribunal was clear that this was a position that was established on the basis that it was for , a female, that this was was for, a female, that this was for a woman, and, you know, the point is that they relied on an exception in the equality act to advertise this for females and middle wadhwa doesn't have a

gender recognition certificate. so legally is male, in all circumstances. >> so just to be clear, is that a violation of the law? the application itself, it's unclear. >> i think the general point would be that this is something that's permissible, that it's permissible for a centre to advertise for this. but there will be some ambiguity there. and i wouldn't be confident to say with any certainty that it is or it isn't. >> but why would he have been appointed if the advertise? if it was, the post was advertised for women only, why would he be appointed? and who by well , for women only, why would he be appointed? and who by well, i mean there's two explanations here. >> one is that riddle did not disclose any information when the application went in, and the other explanation is that the organisation that was running edinburgh rape crisis centre didn't care. >> right. can i ask you, michael , just on this point about whenever we have these decisions, such as maya's own case, a lot of, activist lawyers do come out of the woodwork and say we should just ignore this decision. it wasn't right. do you think there is a problem with it within the community of lawyers when it comes to this, that there is disagreement? >> i mean, there's disagreement on most of the time when lawyers

disagree in discrimination law cases, it's very clear that there's reasonable disagreement going on here, there. and i would want to be clear, i don't think there's a there's a widespread problem of lawyers coming out and, and trying to ban, particular decisions. there's some lawyers, some individuals who are doing that and who have not done it for this case. and i think that's because the case is quite clear, quite damning. yes. and there's no real room for manoeuvre here. the judgement can't be fudged . the judgement can't be fudged. >> right, maya, just finally, is this going to be the final tipping point every time something like this happens, i think, well, that's it. over now. you know, i thought this after the cass review, i thought, well, but but it never seems to go away. but do you think this might be it, though? no no, i, i think you get there are a few people who believe that sex isn't real, and then there are lots of people who are rightly scared for their jobs from for saying what they know to be true. >> and those people are still scared. they're still not speaking out. and this is why i think it has to go back to the government . government. >> and finally, just tell us about sex matters. where can people find more information

about it? sex hyphen matters. >> org and they can sign up for our election campaign, where we're telling every candidate that they must stand up for single sex services . that's fantastic. >> maya forstater. michael farage, thank you very much for joining me. and next up on free speech nation , journalist aaron speech nation, journalist aaron sebastian will discuss his scoop on a possible lowering of admission standards for minority applicants at ucla medical school. see you in a few moments

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. whistleblowers at ucla medical school in the united states have told a reporter at the washington free beacon that the school has significantly lowered admissions standards for minority applicants. the whistleblowers claim that half of ucla medical students now

fail basic tests of medical competence. so we're joined now by washington free beacon reporter aaron ciborium, who broke this story. aaron, welcome to the show. i want to ask you about this, because people are going to think this is absolutely incredible. that a medical school is not prioritising meritocracy . you prioritising meritocracy. you would have thought when it comes to health care, this was the most important thing right? >> yeah, exactly. that is what you would think. but that is not what's happening. and you see it not just in the data, but also in the anecdotes that whistleblowers tell about the behaviour and competency of students on their medical rotations , there is a very rotations, there is a very tangible belt, decline in medical competency , that really medical competency, that really exploded, it seems, after 2020. >> so let's be absolutely clear about this. what you're saying is that at ucla, what they're saying is they would rather have

a broader range of ethnic minorities represented among medical staff rather than have just the best people for the job. that's what they're doing . job. that's what they're doing. >> yeah. well, the part of how you know that that's what they're doing is that apparently they're doing is that apparently the dean of admissions, jennifer lucero, all but explicitly said that in various admissions meetings where she would chew people out for speaking ill of minority candidates with low test scores, she would speak about the need for diversity . about the need for diversity. she even advocated for moving certain residents up or down a rank list, which determines whether they're hired as basically assistant doctors, based on race. right? we have multiple credible allegations from not just one person, but from not just one person, but from over four people, who've had first hand encounters with her, that she does this pretty routinely, but isn't this a soft form of racism to suggest that

if you are scoring lower but you're from an ethnic minority background, we're just going to make allowances for that? i mean, isn't isn't the anti—rape approach surely to hold everyone to identical standards is . to identical standards is. >> well, that's what you would think. but that is not the definition of anti—racism that is dominant in, pretty much all us medical schools. i mean, i don't think that ucla is, frankly, all that much of an aberration. a lot of schools do this , and dei diversity, equity this, and dei diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives are everywhere in medical school . i everywhere in medical school. i think they're more ubiquitous in medical school than many other professional schools, ucla just seems to be a particular, fairly extreme case, so extreme that that, lots of whistleblowers were willing to come forward anonymously from the admissions office, something that , to my office, something that, to my knowledge, has never before happenedin knowledge, has never before happened in modern american history. i really have never seen, this many people come

forward and say, yes, i'm an admissions officer. we were not applying these metrics fairly , applying these metrics fairly, and now it's coming back to haunt us in the operating room . haunt us in the operating room. >> so, aaron, i should say that ucla did issue a statement regarding this story to students and faculty. so i'd just like to read to you what they said. so ucla said there have been false allegations about the medical school in media outlets. we want to affirm here that both students and faculty members are held to the highest standards of academic excellence. highly qualified medical students and trainees are admitted based on merit, in a process consistent with state and federal law. medical student final exam scores are well above the national average, and graduating students matched to the nation's most prestigious residency programs. what do you make of that statement? do you think that statement? do you think that they are indeed simply holding people to standards on the basis of merit? >> no. and look, if ucla is going to accuse us of making false allegations, then they should provide wide the full set

of data that would refute the allegations. and they haven't done that . the most they've done done that. the most they've done is just, done that. the most they've done isjust, i done that. the most they've done is just, i think today, or maybe it was at some point yesterday, theyi it was at some point yesterday, they i think internally released some data that is now leaked on twitter showing that in certain cohorts the failure rates are lower . and then there's this lower. and then there's this other test called a step two licensing exam , where the pass licensing exam, where the pass rate is basically the same, and they use that as evidence that, oh, there's no problem here, without getting too into the weeds, they, they released a very selective slice of data that does not address the kind of core claim in the article, which is that the failure rates for all students have increased over time. and they just provide like one snapshot of rotation . like one snapshot of rotation. so it's not it's not particularly revealing. and, you know, they could give us the mcat scores by race, for example , but they haven't done that. >> well, it'd be very

interesting to see if they do. this is part, of course, aaron, of a broader debate that's happening , particularly in happening, particularly in america. and since the case of claudine gay at harvard, i mean, is it the case that really edi eqtu is it the case that really edi equity , diversity and inclusion equity, diversity and inclusion as a movement, as an ideology is on its last legs that more and more people are waking up to the fact that this isn't inclusive, that this isn't diverse. it's actually the opposite. >> i think it's true that more people are waking up and there's more organised opposition to it. i don't think it follows that it's on its last legs. right. if you look at how a lot of political kind of oppositional political kind of oppositional political movements have formed history, they form because there is a kind of regnant ideological movement that they rise up to oppose, and sometimes they're successful in completely displacing that movement. but often what happens, like , say, often what happens, like, say, with the rise of american conservatism, is it's not like the conservatives react and then, you know, just completely a victory. it's like you get a stalemate or you get a tug of war between these two forces. so

i do think there's more opposition to edi, wokeness , opposition to edi, wokeness, whatever you want to call it, than there was in, say, the summer of 2020. but i also think that as this report shows, edi is extremely entrenched in all sorts of bureaucracies and it's going to take more than just people waking up and realising there's a problem to change, that it's going to require a sustained kind of political contestation, and, and the people who are kind of anti edi are fundamentally the insurgents in that political battle. they are not the ones fighting from a position of strength . right. the position of strength. right. the strength lies in the bureaucracies that have been totally cannibalised by this stuff. >> but of course, the practitioners of edi would say to you, yes, but all we're trying to do is to ensure that racism doesn't prevail. well, isn't that a good thing? i mean, aren't we all against racism ? aren't we all against racism? >> well, yeah. i mean, of course everyone is against racism when you put it like that. but, the edi people tend to define racism as anything that results in any

kind of disparate outcome. so if a colour—blind and meritocratic admissions process results in, in more, asian than hispanic people being admitted to med school, they would define that as racist somehow. right? so it all depends on what you mean by racism. >> but ultimately, surely, when it comes to things like medicine , often, the priority has to be the patient. and what is in the best interest of the patient . best interest of the patient. >> yeah, that's what i would i would think and i would note, too, that if you're really serious about ending racism , you serious about ending racism, you don't want to create a environment in which it is rational for people to assume that minority doctors didn't get to their positions based on competence, right? this kind of affirmative action is going to increase the stigma that genuinely qualified minority doctors faced, because there's just will be no way to know. did this person graduate ucla medical school based on merit or

not, that's the real. that's another part of the problem here. >> aaron sabrin, thank you ever so much forjoining me on the show. thank you . show. thank you. >> so next on free speech nation rishi sunak fails to win over welsh voters nigel farage sparks outrage , and a theme park outrage, and a theme park visitor gets more than they bargained for. >> it's almost time for social sensations. see you in a few minutes

well go back to free speech nafion well go back to free speech nation with me. >> andrew doyle. it's time for social sensations. that's the part of the show where we look at what's been going viral this week on social media. so first up, we've got this video rishi sunak speaking to voters in wales about the euro 24 football tournament. and he seems to be unaware that wales did not qualify. let's have a look . qualify. let's have a look.

>> are you looking forward to all the football ? all the football? >> not so much money bag but well get people in. >> get people in. no, but that's because you guys aren't in it. well the get people out, you know there'll be people coming. >> okay. well that's interesting. i didn't know wales had a football team though did they. are they. >> yeah. this is to news me. okay, well, why would it matter though. >> i mean, he didn't actually he just didn't know, did he? >> yeah. you know, he's just a dude just hanging out with his welsh friends. >> yeah. is that what's going on there? >> yeah. he's just they love him. they love. >> he was the man in the leopard. the leopard shell suit. >> i don't know his name. >> i don't know his name. >> no. right. okay. he seemed really angry. >> oh, did he seem angry about it? >> i got an it? >> i got an an gry it? >> i got an angry vibe. sorry, but would you be angry about that? >> kind of. i mean, do you think that. >> do you not think he would have maybe done a bit of research just a wee bit. even ask someone a wales through like really ? really? >> i just find it difficult to care about football. >> well, snap, i hear you, sister. >> okay, let's move on to this clip now. this is nigel farage, who's faced faced a backlash

today over his comments on sky news. let's have a look. >> we have a growing number of young people in this country who do not subscribe to british values, in fact, loathe much of what we stand for. so what do you do? >> who are we talking about there? >> oh, i think we see them on the streets of london every saturday. >> what do they look like? oh we're talking about what do they look like? are we talking about muslims here? >> we are so very direct, josh. i mean, he's talking about the marches every saturday. he's talking about a specific cultural problem here. what do you think about this? >> the problem is when you may insinuate that it's all muslims. yes, that that would be where the where the definition of what you're saying. the fact is there is an issue with islam as an ideology in terms of it's there is anti—semitism within it. there is a, part of it is about not necessarily assimilating to a culture, but rather part partly. i'm not talking about

all muslim within the ideology. we have to be able to talk about this stuff. sure. so raising these issues are really important because otherwise to pretend and put our fingers in our ears. and what led to you know, terrible abuse up north of young women and a leading now to there is a growing contingent of young people and who are frankly , anti—western, anti—british. , anti —western, anti —british. i've , anti—western, anti—british. i've seen them . i was at a march i've seen them. i was at a march last week. i was one of about 100 jewish people, and there was about 100,000 people. now, they weren't all muslims by any means. and there were many muslims who were there for peace as well. i, you know, but there was a contingent of young people who were racist towards jews . who were racist towards jews. and, and personally, i found threatening . threatening. >> i mean, it's interesting, isn't it, because the danger with all of this is that people start generalising about whole communities and actually, of course, within, for instance, if you take the issue of homophobia, there's a lot of homophobia, there's a lot of homophobia within the muslim community, but there's also gay muslims who have to deal with that. and so you have to treat these issues with nuance, don't

you? >>i you? >> i think what everyone thinks of that and whether you agree with farage or not, he is a rare person on television that gave a yes no answer , because you don't yes no answer, because you don't get that. that's true. so i'm not saying what he's saying is right. i'm not saying i align myself with his thoughts or whatever, but he is one of the few very few that will, if it's a yes no answer, give you a you could answer very directly. >> okay, we're going to go now to a clip from a theme park goer who got himself in a bit of a spin. with his ghastly roller coaster type things that spins around and there's i don't know if you could see there, but the guy there in the front carriage is, being propelled around a terribly fast. i mean, that can't be. >> that's not normal. >> that's not normal. >> it's not normal. i mean, why would anyone want that? but also, that's a miss. that's a malfunction, right? it's got to be of him winning that outfit. >> i completely it's a disgrace. but it's not meant to be spinning. >> no, it was red before and then it was green at the. at that point. >> why would. but that's not my idea of fun. no

>> of course. >> of course. >> what is your idea of fun? backgammon. okay. >> yeah . what do you think about >> yeah. what do you think about that, josh? >> i like backgammon on those. those rides. >> very difficult. very challenging. yes, indeed. there's very little that we can say about that other than, you know, don't don't do it. >> did he throw up? >> did he throw up? >> oh, he must have done. >> oh, he must have done. >> yeah. that's the bit i want to see. >> no. oh, please. okay, look, we're going to move on now because we've got just enough time for some unfiltered dilemmas. so our first dilemma has come in from james. and james has said , does jim dale james has said, does jim dale look like liam neeson ? now, of look like liam neeson? now, of course, we're not talking about jim dale from the carry on films. we're talking about jim dale, the, climate climatologist. he was on this show the other week saying that he thought that, it should be illegal to deny that climate change was a thing, that you should go to prison for it. so i did challenge him on that because it was a good interview, because it was a good interview, because that's authoritarian nonsense . it was. nonsense. it was. >> he was very sweaty. but i don't know if it was your sort of interview. my interrogation skills about the air conditioning was broken that day. >> is he liam neeson? that seems a bit unfair. >> no, i think it looks like you

remember that thing. the riddlers. and they lived on a barge. i have no idea. one was called mossop. okay, no, seriously, this is a real thing. it's not the ramblings of a diseased mind. so that's who he looks like to me. >> everyone's going to be googung >> everyone's going to be googling that to find out if mossop looks like liam neeson, we'll have one more dilemma. now, this is from a jess. jess says, my other half has had a haircut. i'm not sure if i still fancy him with short hair and i'm being superficial. or am i right to think he should have consulted me first? >> bruce, i think she has the right and she should have been consulted, and i hope this man enjoys his new hairdo and being like, really? >> you think you should consult? >> you think you should consult? >> absolutely. really? >> absolutely. really? >> absolutely. really? >> absolutely. if your partner is doing it. i shaved my beard this week. yeah. >> and you ask permission first. i did ask permission, we both agreed that it was a mistake . agreed that it was a mistake. >> yes, but you did it anyway. yes. >> and he was okay with that . >> and he was okay with that. >> and he was okay with that. >> unbelievable. unbelievable. this is news to me. i think he should do whatever you want, jess. anyway, thanks for joining us on free speech nation. this was the week when rishi sunak managed to annoy the whole of wales. hamas themed birthday cakes became a thing, and star

wars fans were angered by a rainbow. r2—d2, thanks so much to my panel. bruce devlin and josh howie and to all of my brilliant guests this evening. and by the way, if you want to join us live in the studio and be part of our wonderful audience, you can do that. just go to western audiences .com. stay tuned for mark dolan tonight. he's coming up in just one moment. and don't forget that headline is on at 11:00, the late night paper preview show. thanks ever so much for watching free speech nation. see you next week. >> that warm feeling inside from boxt boiler is sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> hello there! welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast on the met office. looking ahead to bank holiday monday and its remaining unsettled across the uk with some further showers at times. reason for the ancestral weather. is this area of low pressure. it's going to hang

around all weekend and into next week, maintaining this unsettled feel for the rest of sunday. still, the risk of some further heavy rain, especially across parts of scotland, but down towards central and eastern parts of england, it will turn dner parts of england, it will turn drier and clearer. so here a bit of a chill in the air. first thing on bank holiday monday. but elsewhere under the cloud and rain temperatures holding up above 10 to 11 degrees, so as i mentioned, some clear skies initially down towards eastern and central england. so some sunshine here first thing in the morning. further west we will see some showers and they will migrate their way eastwards as the day goes on. for northern england and northern ireland. again, a mixture of some cloud and a few bits of brightness. but again, some rain around southern scotland. the risk of some persistent rain still here, with a mixture of bright spells and a few showers further north. but it's in fact across parts of northern scotland where we do start to see the sunshine heat the ground, we will see some heavy and thundery downpours

developing to watch out for some thunderstorms here as we go through the course of the day elsewhere. still the risk of some showers, but they will be fewer and further between compared to sunday and also a little bit lighter. but for all of us it will be a slightly cooler day i think. highs reaching around 16 or 17 possibly. maybe the odd spot seeing 18 degrees onto tuesday. a bright start in the east, but another band of rain will spread in during the course of the day, turning brighter but showery behind it . turning brighter but showery behind it. but all the time, temperatures reaching only at best, average remaining unsettled. on wednesday and thursday, but hints of something a bit drier and brighter coming through as we head towards next weekend . weekend. >> looks like things are heating up boxt boiler year. sponsors of weather on

gb news. >> it's 9:00. on television. on radio and online in the united kingdom. and across the world. this is mark dolan tonight. whoever wins the next election will receive an unexpected boost . brexit. with a booming economy and investment through the roof, our next prime minister can count their blessings that we're out where nigel farage's comments about some muslims not sharing british values islamophobic. we'll hear from all sides . and following all sides. and following shocking allegations about one of the professional dancers on bbc's strictly , are be dealing bbc's strictly, are be dealing with the biggest scandal in the show's history . two hours of big show's history. two hours of big opinion, big debate and big entertainment. my big opinion is on the way. good for news our next prime minister. find out why, after the news headlines and the highly electable ray addison