well. >> good morning, and welcome to the camilla tominey show on this sunny sunday. >> well, it's been another very busy week for all the parties on the campaign trail. >> week one is over. only five weeks to go until we know who will be forming the next government in number 10. as junior doctors intend to strike in the days leading up to july the 4th. i'll be asking health secretary victoria atkins for her thoughts on how this might affect already sky high nhs waiting lists. shadow home secretary yvette cooper will be joining me. i'll be asking her why starmer floundered so much over diane abbott and whether labour can really stop the boats. former lib dem mp and transport minister norman baker will be here to give his take on sir ed davey's tomfoolery. is he making a mockery of the lib dems campaign? my fellow gb news presenter and daily mail columnist andrew pierce will also be in the studio to share his moving story of how he found his moving story of how he found his birth mother , detailed in his birth mother, detailed in his birth mother, detailed in his new book, finding margaret and damian collins. the

conservative candidate will share his new book release , share his new book release, which looks at the legacy of the liberal wartime prime minister david lloyd george. it's going to be another jam packed 90 to be anotherjam packed 90 minutes of punchy politics this morning, so you won't want to go anywhere . anywhere. well, to go through the sunday papers as ever , i'm joined by papers as ever, i'm joined by anna mikhailova, who's the deputy political editor of the mail on sunday. lovely to see you, anna. thank you for coming in. i know you're very busy on the campaign trail yourself. let's look at the mail on sunday. your newspaper's front page. tory sos to rishi. give us tax cuts. now. now, this is rishi sunak once again facing pressure from within. i sometimes wonder where is the real opposition for rishi sunak? is it labour or is it his own mps? and this is the so—called p0p mps? and this is the so—called pop cons, the popular conservatives, of whom liz truss is a member. tell us about what

they're saying to the prime minister this morning, anna. so they have issued a five point plan of how to turn things around. >> another five point plan, right, yes, and, and the crux of it is that the manifesto has to, has to, has to include tax cuts. and they specifically want inheritance tax. inheritance tax cuts. yes. and stamp duty. so significant cuts to those two. obviously this will be very popular with the conservative base. but the grey wall that we were discussing earlier is interesting. >> let's just explain this. we know about the grey wall. we know about the grey wall. we know sorry, we know about the red wall. we know about the blue wall. this is about this conservative offer, particularly to the over 65 seconds, who i guess they're thinking are the only caucus of support that they can truly rely on, with the polling suggesting that they've lost the 18 to 24 year olds. and in fact, there was a poll in the weekend, i don't know if you saw it suggesting that the greens are ahead of the tories among the under 50s. so the grey wall is the new target? >> yes, exactly. and this plan is designed to try and do

something with the polls, because at the end of the day, i mean, there was a, there was a big, significant poll in the weekend in the daily mail, which showed that the conservatives could be down to as little as 70 something votes. which of course is extraordinary. 70 seats. yes, 70 seats. exactly 70 seats. >> 70 votes would be a really bad election for them . no, but bad election for them. no, but that cataclysmic sort of what we call wiped polling and basically, like they'll barely be a tory left in sight. >> and that sparked, over the weekend , absolute fury from weekend, absolute fury from conservative candidates and rishi sunak's own party. so it's completely understandable that people are saying, right, why? why aren't things we're doing, which seemingly should be very popular, you know, boosting defence spending? yes. cutting national insurance, you know, cutting personal taxes. why aren't they landing? what why aren't they landing? what why aren't they landing? what why aren't the polls moving ? yes, we aren't the polls moving? yes, we also have in the paperjeremy hunt. yes, saying that he is one

of the reasons why we've gone for a, july poll is that he saw that the two national insurance cuts didn't seem to resonate , cuts didn't seem to resonate, didn't seem to shift the polls. no.and didn't seem to shift the polls. no. and therefore, the big argument for wait until the autumn, another possible fiscal event, another possible tax cut. he says if we do the same, there was no guarantee that that would actually work . and i think you actually work. and i think you and your column touched very well on that. actually, the choice of a july election, while it seemed mad in the moment, is increasingly looking a lot more strategic . strategic. >> i think he's caught reform off guard, certainly. and nigel farage's decision not to stand has been significant. we'll talk about nigel in just a moment. but equally i think labour i mean , they've spent the whole mean, they've spent the whole week talking about diane abbott rather than their own policies . rather than their own policies. and i actually i wrote a column saying that i thought that rishi sunak had had a pretty good week, all things considered. and considering the rain soaked start to it all. but obviously there's a long time still to go

and the manifesto is going to be key. i mean, it's going to be key. i mean, it's going to be key for all of the parties, but my goodness me, do you agree, anna, that the tory party manifesto needs to be full throated thatcherism, otherwise they're doomed? >> well, it's interesting, labour essentially doesn't need to say anything in their manifesto, don't they, though ? manifesto, don't they, though? it's like this whole. how many shadow ministers have i had on here? and i've asked for substance over sound bite and no questions are asked answered. and then they always say wait for the manifesto. if the manifesto isn't worth the paper, it's written on, then the electorate's going to go, sorry, what do you stand for? >> i don't know, i mean it, i think the other thing they're very, very wary of is the theresa may example. yes being this far ahead of the polls and then having some bold policy, which is absolutely what they should be doing, i completely agree, particularly if they're about to be trusted with, you know, the nation for what could be a two term, government dementia tax moment where the whole thing. so and that is

everything is about preventing something like that. you know, it's the ming vase strategy that everyone talks about, he's carrying this ming vase of the massive poll lead and all. he is focused on is not dropping it, not doing, not making any sudden movements. and i think with the polls as they are, it's totally understandable. >> it's all right if you're carrying a ming vase by yourself , if you've got angela rayner well, and diane abbott, but careering into the ming vase, it's difficult. right. let's race through, the front page of the sunday telegraph tells the tale of yet another private school falling victim to labour's vat raid. this is a school which has got a third of its pupils with special educational needs. the headteacher there has basically said this is as a direct result of this tory proposal, because he says we cannot possibly leverage this extra fee amount on. he describes ordinary parents like plumbers and electricians. it's down and prep in norfolk. this is the one policy they won't flip flop on andifs policy they won't flip flop on and it's getting terrible press. >> it is. but you know what's interesting ? i don't think it's

interesting? i don't think it's cutting through. i have met people who aren't in politics who don't even know that this is a policy, who are middle class voters. so there's a curious thing happening where, you're right. this will be a very consequential policy. i think it is very popular with the labour base, with young people , with base, with young people, with those voters that they want to shore up. but but and as they keep arguing, oh, well, shore up. but but and as they keep arguing , oh, well, these keep arguing, oh, well, these private schools, they can just afford it. they can just afford it, of course, when you look at places like eton and harrow, of course they will be able to afford it. but it's not about those, is it? and the real concern is both just the, the a special. the schools that cater very, very well for special needs children. yes. and there's a real problem. it's not just about flooding the state sector. it's also about, having schools that can only cater for properly for these parents, of these children with special educational needs, it often don't have a choice. >> so they have to scrimp and save to send their children to

special schools. yeah. and now they're going to be penalised. i shall be grilling yvette cooper. there's a quote. >> i mean, i found it really interesting that wes streeting, said on question time and it's quoted here in the article he says, i say to the headteachers, you're going to have to cut your cloth accordingly, like state schools have had to. strange argument to me because it's essentially saying, well , they essentially saying, well, they went through austerity, therefore you need you to it's levelling down. it's not it's not aspirational. >> keeps on banging on about the cost of living. does he not think that energy bills going up and wages i mean, does he not want teachers to be paid adequately? this is the other thing. we've got the unions also in the sunday telegraph saying, well, if you're going to make private school teachers redundant, we're not for it. so that one will run and run. and i will speak to yvette cooper about it later. let's talk about whether nigel farage of this parish, formerly of this parish, temporarily engaged in other matters because i've been covering his show and i will continue to cover his show, at 7 pm. on weekdays until january. january july the 4th. god, imagine if it was january the 4th, i think i'd probably have

to, like, lie down in a dark room for about three months, can he unite the tories ? the sunday he unite the tories? the sunday times has gone on the road with him. i think he's been in skegness yesterday with richard tice, but he's getting all of the attention and the reform leader isn't, which was a point of the piece. his plan is to take over the tories. can he actually do that? >> well, i mean, all of this was, harry york, our former colleague who went with him, asked him the question. so you know, are you open to a merger? but he says something that concerns us. talk about, conservatives, the pop cons, for example . that is something they example. that is something they look at as after i wrote a piece a few weeks ago, showing that their strategy is post—election looking at merging with farage in some way, some kind of pact. now now, although farage to that replied with with characteristic modesty, he says not a merger, more like a takeover. yes how that would actually work. i mean, like artistically, he would have to run as an mp,

which obviously he's not doing now. he would perhaps be given a seat in the lords, which people do talk about. and there are fans of that strategy , i think fans of that strategy, i think this feeds in very much to the real reason why he hasn't run for reform, because he doesn't want to be a reform mp. he actually he's the prize for him is the conservative party. it always has been. >> but then i'm going to speak to victoria atkins, the health secretary, a bit later in the show. she's one of those tories with a really, really, really safe seat . so i think whatever safe seat. so i think whatever happens, if it's an electoral calamity for the tories, she probably retains her seat. and i'm going to ask her, well, would you work with farage because she's a one nation? i mean, the idea that farage is going to unite an already divided party by uniting it on the further right, i think, is for the birds as far as some of the moderates are concerned. but let's see, moving on very quickly because we're running out of time. let's talk about chas and dave . now. there's lots chas and dave. now. there's lots of images of the king and david beckham still hasn't been given a knighthood. just to note ,

a knighthood. just to note, anna, hanging out together in the sunshine. what's all this about? >> so david beckham has become an ambassador for the kings foundation, and, there are some lovely pictures, as you say . lovely pictures, as you say. apparently they swapped beekeeping tips. yes. and i think we all anyone who watched the david beckham, excellent documentary series remembers how he is now a very keen beekeeper . he is now a very keen beekeeper. >> i know i love this idea of these two having much in common. i mean, maybe they do because of this kind of, you know, patriotism and the union jack kind of, you know, filters through both of their lives. he is doing the beekeeping. but it's also interesting, isn't it, to see the king back on form, back in public. i mean, obviously he's undergone that cancer treatment. it's been very, very difficult for him. beckham i think the other interesting thing about a celebrity in the world of luvvies, i appreciate he's in the sports world, so it's slightly different. but in the world of celebrities, it's not always that popular to say or want to be close to royalty. and then remember that he covered himself in glory, didn't he, at the queen's funeral because he queued all of those hours to see

the late monarch? >> in fact, i think we were there on the day he queued . there on the day he queued. >> we were there on the day he queued as if, i mean, some people were saying, oh, it's a cynical pr exercise. having said that, i did make the joke at the beginning of this conversation, anna, about is he a step closer to that knighthood? i think possibly through the medium of honey, i think there are, there are, there are, there are worse people who've been given knighthoods. >> why not? >> why not? >> well, indeed so, especially as the euros fast approach and i know you're going to be. are you going out on the road this week? are you going to be. yes. you're going to be on a battle bus somewhere. >> you think not a battle bus. i think more individual. yes. battle bussing, pinning people down for interviews for next sunday's paper. >> thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. forjoining us this morning. lovely to see you. well, we've got a very special friend to this show because we've got andrew pierce coming into the studio next to talk about this extraordinary story of finding his birth mother, margaret. stay tuned for that

welcome back to gb news. you're watching the camilla tominey show. lovely to have your company on this sunny sunday. now, i'm delighted to be joined by my fellow gb news presenter and daily mail columnist, andrew pierce. in the studio to discuss this. i'm loving this photo on here. look, let's give the. if you're listening to this on gb news radio, then i'm holding up the book now, finding margaret. and this is a remarkably touching story, i must say, andrew, about , touching story, i must say, andrew, about, as you say here, solving the mystery of your birth mother . solving the mystery of your birth mother. so solving the mystery of your birth mother . so let's just solving the mystery of your birth mother. so let's just for people completely unfamiliar with this story, let's go back to the beginning, because this was news to me, by the way. i mean, we've known each other a long, long time, and i didn't know you were adopted. and i never really thought, well, i didn't talk about it, probably. >> i never wrote about it before, but in short form. i was put in an orphanage in cheltenham, nazareth house, run by nuns. there's a story. >> interesting. >> interesting. >> two and a half years. my birth. by a catholic, woman. she was a nurse who lived in

birmingham. she used to visit me. so she was hoping that at some point she would be able to give little patrick, as i was then patrick james connolly, good catholic home. but that never happened . i was then put never happened. i was then put up for adoption when i was two and a half, and i was adopted when i was three by a fantastic couple, betty and george, in swindon. and i had a brilliant upbringing. but as i got closer to 50 and i thought, i have to find a curiosity, why do i look like this? why do i behave like this? and also i thought, if she's still with us, the birth mother, she needs to know i'm okay. a remarkable adventure. it's almost like a thriller. finding her and all the twists and turns i'm glad i did. it's not like davina mccall happy endings, i'm afraid. but what's been extraordinary about this book? camilla, i have got so many letters. they are heartfelt from men, women, young people who were either given up by a mother or tried to find a mother or a father , and it's inspiring or a father, and it's inspiring other people to do the same. but

it's also getting people. one lady said, i'm 82. i feel just so much better writing about this for the first time in my life to you is giving me some peace just writing it. thank you for reading this letter. >> so going back a bit, when did you find out you were adopted? always knew, always . my dad always knew, always. my dad always told me mom and dad really up front. >> three, three children of their own. i was the only adopted one. yes. traditional working class family. catholic family. so i always knew. yes and if you looked at my siblings, you tell i was the adopted one. fair enough. >> okay. but. and then you say when you were approaching your 50th birthday, presumably this is always been in the back of your mind. yeah, but what did mum and dad think about you going and searching for margaret? i never told them, we'd lost dad . but dad had said we'd lost dad. but dad had said to me privately many times, you should find your birth mother because she used to come and visit you. and i think she needs to know you're okay. and that was a wonderful guy. we lost him to alzheimer's and disappeared, and so the reason it took me so long, camilla, i agonised was because i didn't do anything to upset mum. no. so mum never

knew. >> right ? >> right? >> right? >> and she would ask, never ask me, but she would ask my closest friends if she saw them. she'd come to stay after we lost dad. has he ever tried to find his birth mother? and they lied on my behalf. god love them. very few knew. yes, it was very tightly tight circle, but she knew the tight circle and they all lied. >> and when you got to finally meet margaret and you tell the story of how that happened, you were helped by a couple of journalistic friends. well friends, anyway, amanda platell and jane morgan. yeah, yeah, you kind of use some of your journalistic prowess in order to find her. what i found kind of disturbing is that you went there with. you wanted answers to your questions, and i feel that you didn't really get them . that you didn't really get them. >> i didn't, because i wanted to know perhaps, who my birth father was. because the mystery about margaret, when i tried to find her, i assumed she was 17, 18, 19 when she had me. she was in her 30s. >> what does that tell you? like she. it was one too many children. she couldn't handle it. >> she felt i was the first one.

and. and she. was she having an affair, she was a nurse. well, she had an affair with a doctor. was she having an affair with somebody else, because she's not convinced that the person listed on your birth certificate is your actual. >> well, i've explored the whole area of the birth father, and thatis area of the birth father, and that is an adventure in itself. it took me to ireland. it took me all over the country. and so i suspect the subheading is finding margaret solving the mystery of my birth mother. i haven't solved the mystery of my birth mother. it's ongoing. >> and how was she with you when you finally sort of met face to face? because you must have been extremely nervous, and it must have been surreal for you. i'd imagine it was. >> and i kept looking at her, thinking, do i look like her? we eventually met and we had an hour together and that in itself was an extraordinary hour, because you didn't ask me anything? >> yes. did you feel sort of son to mother automatic bond, or was she a stranger to you? really? >> she was a stranger, but i knew it was her. i saw a dot walking down in the street, and

i knew it was her. so there's. you can't ever break that link , you can't ever break that link, camilla. but is blood thicker than water? well i think my book shows it isn't. yes. so it was very moving, very frustrating. and were you agitating to try and give more? >> i mean, did she know that you were a prominent journalist on the telly? no. what what why don't why didn't she ask you questions about yourself? do you have an answer to that? >> well, people say because it was the 1960s when she had me, and these were difficult times for a catholic irish single woman to have a baby. the catholic church is very important in her life. it is in my life too. yes, i'm a good, god fearing catholic. >> yeah, i'm more lapsed than you. you're very good. >> i go on, i can, but, there was a lot of guilt for her, and she and i think she felt she was being punished. well, she told me she was being punished, but then you're trying to kind of, like, connect all the dots about your own family history.

>> and i wondered if you were then, did you? you haven't regretted this process. >> it was the best, most important thing. and i wish i'd doneit important thing. and i wish i'd done it before. and i'd say to people watching as i've written, i'm writing to every single person who's written to me because they wrote to me the most beautiful letters. yeah do it because it's never too late . it because it's never too late. i was nearly 50, so margaret was at 80 odd when i met her. if i'd doneit at 80 odd when i met her. if i'd done it 20 years earlier, she'd have been 60. i still don't think the answers have been any different. no, but. but you are entitled to know. and you've just got to marry that guilt you have over your real mum. because the real mum was betty, who adopted me. i was never looking for a second mum. camilla. >> no, no, that's right. and also isn't the overall kind of the actual discovery of all this. it's called finding margaret. but wasn't the discovery really how much you loved your adopted parents and what a huge, actually this idea that they were the ones who had the huge impact on your life. and sometimes that's just how life turns out. >> exactly. and as if i didn't, i knew how much i loved them,

but if i needed any positive affirmation, this book did it. it was a cathartic process . it was a cathartic process. finding her, then exploring the story, not getting all the answers, but getting some answers. but if i ever had any doubt about my mum and dad, they were the best ever tradition . were the best ever tradition. all east end working class catholics on a swindon council estate. they didn't have much money in them. any money? >> why did they adopt? did they? because you said they had three kids. >> they wanted a fourth kid. yeah, child. and they wanted a little boy. and they knew of this orphanage with quite a few children in there. and actually not many people wanted a tongue tied toddler. >> were you a tongue tied toddler ? who would have thought toddler? who would have thought andrew pierce would be tongue tied at any point in his life? i know, made up for lost time and how do your siblings feel about what you've done? because obviously , margaret went on, obviously, margaret went on, after having you to have three more children, was it four more children? so you've got these half siblings. first of all, what did your siblings , your what did your siblings, your adoptive siblings think about this? and second of all, have

you connected with the other half brothers and sisters? >> we lost one of my sisters. sadly but my big sister, just said , i wonder why it took you said, i wonder why it took you so long to find her, but she was so long to find her, but she was so pleased that i didn't tell mum. really pleased. i didn't tell mum. mum? yeah, that was the right thing. yeah. all i'll say about margaret's family is there's been some contact. >> oh, there has been . and >> oh, there has been. and that's something you might want to develop. yeah. on the question. while i've got you, let's have a little quick chat about the campaign, if you don't mind. yeah yeah, thought so far. >> i completely agree with your column in the telegraph on saturday. >> many people didn't. well yeah. well point out slightly lampooned for that. >> you scored it out of ten. it was a comfortable win for the tories after a very poor start singing in the rain, and, and i think labour had a very bad campaign. i'm sceptical about the polls and i think the tories have got to keep coming up with these ideas, and i think labour may be making the mistake theresa may made back in 2017. just think you can sleepwalk into victory. she started with a

2223 point lead. she kept repeating that same mantra of strong and stable yeah, nothing has changed. nothing has changed. and she went down to a 4.3. lead. another week she'd have lost . and i think there's a have lost. and i think there's a possibility i don't get this disparity between, you know, a poll lead for one polling company of 27 points and then for another of 12, 12, although apparently this is all about the factoring in of the don't nodes. >> there's a lot of to be honest, the don't knows and the disgruntled are going to decide this election. >> there's a lot of don't knows and if they think there's going to be a lot of the don't knows are ex tory voters if they think there's going to be a labour landslide, i think they'll go back to the tories. they'll be too scared. i'm talking about all this with mcguire. oh yes, you've got the mcguire event. >> let's see that. all right. look at this. shame because yeah, i'm going head to head. >> the leicester square theatre, leicester square theatre andrew pierce versus kevin mcguire. we're talking election tory laboun we're talking election tory labour. who's going to be the next tory leader. and of course talking about the books. >> i look forward to that. that's on june the 12th. andrew, thanks so much for coming in. i've got to do farage you have you can beam it live.

>> you could beam it live. >> you could beam it live. >> i'll be in here, i'm afraid. >> i'll be in here, i'm afraid. >> now. coming up next, i'm going to be speaking to the health secretary, victoria atkins, about the tories plans for the nhs. and of course, why rishi is behind in the polls. and yvette cooper, i hope, will answer my questions about private schools and the nhs and whether keir starmer really can bnng whether keir starmer really can bring down immigration. don't go anywhere

welcome back. much more to come . welcome back. much more to come. in the next hour, i'm going to be joined by the health secretary, victoria atkins and shadow home secretary yvette coopen shadow home secretary yvette cooper. but first, here's the news with sophia wenzler . news with sophia wenzler. >> good morning. it's 1030, >> good morning. it's1030, 10:00. i'm sophia wenzler in the

gb newsroom. >> migration is being included in labour's manifesto, with the party promising to reduce the number if it wins the general election . sir keir starmer says election. sir keir starmer says he'll introduce new laws to train british workers to plug gapsin train british workers to plug gaps in the jobs market and strengthen anti—exploitation laws. speaking to the sun on sunday, he said last year's net migration figure of 685,000 has to come down. he didn't put a time frame or a target figure on his promise. meanwhile, the conservatives and the liberal democrats are focusing on the nhs today. the tories say they'll build 100 new gp surgeries and modernise 150 others to help make appointments more accessible , while the party more accessible, while the party has also pledged to build 50 new diagnostic centres, the plans would be paid for by cutting the number of nhs managers to pre—pandemic levels . the lib pre—pandemic levels. the lib dems have attacked the

government's record on health, and are promising to reverse £1 billion of conservative cuts. the party says it would fund local services by cracking down on tax evasion. deputy leader daisy cooper accused the tories of dressing , wasting public of dressing, wasting public funding, leaving britain with a ticking time bomb of health challenges . and david beckham challenges. and david beckham has been bonding with king charles over beekeeping. it comes as former england football captain has been named the ambassador of king's foundation, the monarch's charity. mr beckham and the king compared beekeeping tips when they met ahead of the announcement. the foundation offers educational programmes to protect traditional skills and aims to revitalise communities through urban regeneration and supporting sustainable food production. mr beckham said he was excited to help raise awareness of the charity's work . awareness of the charity's work. and for the latest story , sign and for the latest story, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning

the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. com slash alerts now it's back to . camilla. it's back to. camilla. >> thanks, sofia. welcome back to the camilla tominey show. lots more still to come. as promised in just a minute. i'm going to be speaking to the health secretary, victoria atkins. i'll be getting to the bottom of whether the tories can take on striking junior doctors, as well as battling to save their seats at the ballot box. i'll also be speaking to shadow home secretary yvette cooper . is home secretary yvette cooper. is she like the labour leader, sir keir starmer, a socialist ? i keir starmer, a socialist? i shall ask her that direct question. i'll also be joined by former liberal democrat mp and transport minister norman baker. i'm going to be asking him if sir ed davey stunts are detracting from a serious campaign for the lib dems, and damian collins will be here. now, this is interesting because he's written a book about the legacy of the liberal prime minister, david lloyd george, very much associated not just with world war i. as we look ahead to d—day , albeit marking

ahead to d—day, albeit marking a different conflict, but very interesting on that and also just interesting on the establishment of the welfare state and whether it's still fit for purpose in 2024. so that's all still to come. we're waiting for victoria atkins to be with us. she's going to be she's ready to go. i'm hearing she's ready to go. i'm hearing she's ready to go. health secretary, i hope you can hear me . hello? hope you can hear me. hello? hello lovely to see you're becoming a regular. hello. sunday round. yes, i can hear you. if you can hear me. we're good to go, can we talk about the fact ? can we talk about the the fact? can we talk about the fact that. i mean, i've written this in the telegraph yesterday. i thought rishi sunak had a good first campaign week and that you've done well, you know, you've done well, you know, you've landed your policy ideas, labour have been caught up in this mess about diane abbott, but the polling is still dire . but the polling is still dire. we've got one mrp poll predicting that you're going to win just 66 seats. why can't the prime minister move the dial? why is he still much less popular than keir starmer ?

popular than keir starmer? >> well, we good morning camilla and everyone watching. >> we know that the only the only poll that matters is the big poll on polling day . and big poll on polling day. and what we're doing across constituencies, across the united kingdom is ensuring that we're putting our policies forward , that we're showing the forward, that we're showing the great work that local candidates and former members of parliament have done for our constituencies, and delivering on those promises. my job as health secretary, for example, is to explain our vision for our nhs, which is to reform it to make it faster, simpler and fairer . and some of the fairer. and some of the announcements i have today concerning gp surgeries concerning gp surgeries concerning pharmacy first and community diagnostic centres are the ways that we will help deliver that over the coming years. don't worry, i'm going to ask you about your plans for the nhs in just a minute. >> but just on this polling and the tories popularity or lack of it, there was this extraordinary poll in the week suggesting i think it was yougov suggesting that the greens are ahead of the tories among the under 50s. have you just given up on the young

vote and are now just going for what's been described by the sunday times as the grey wall, because you've basically offered young people maths till 18 and national service, the competitors labour are offering young people votes at 16 and 17. so have you just given up on the 18 to 20 four's? >> absolutely not. and if you look at our plans not just for the national citizen service, which i think i have to say, i think it's a great idea to be able to give young people that on the cusp of adulthood and that opportunity to see other parts of the voluntary network or to enter military service. i think that's a real range of opportunities for our young people, and that's about ensuring that they have the skills and the qualities for later in life. but also, of course, we've given a tax break this year of £900 to people of working age through the national

insurance tax cut. and what is more , more, we have said that we more, more, we have said that we want to ensure that pensions , as want to ensure that pensions, as those workplace pensions that we've done so much to , to we've done so much to, to encourage people to invest in, it can be very difficult in the at the very start of your career to invest in your pensions. but we've done that through our workplace pension work. what worries me is that labour is absolutely silent on whether or not they're going to raid raid those pension pots. we have made it clear we will not, but labour has not. and it is these incremental policies or silences from labour that is, i think, building a very different picture from the one that perhaps they like to come on the camera and talk about. we have to look at the evidence behind it. >> let's look at something that starmer has not been silent on today, because he's given an interview to the sun on sunday, where he's pledged to bring down immigration. i'm just going to quote the labour leader. the conservatives repeatedly say they are going to cut these numbers. they have never done

it. they have completely failed. it's quite hard to disagree with that assessment, isn't it? victoria atkins ? victoria atkins? >> well, sorry he's very late to the issue. he has consistently voted against every single measure that we have brought before the house to tackle illegal migration, some 100 times. that's not that's not an oversight on his part . that's oversight on his part. that's a determined policy not to tackle illegal migration. >> but the numbers have gone up under the conservative. >> well, if on illegal migration, in fact, we saw last year a small boat crossings falling by a third because of the programme of measures that we have put in place now that we've got the rwanda policy into law, we know that that will act as a deterrent to. but on legal migration , we have there is migration, we have there is a delicate balancing act between ensuring that we attract the brightest and the best, but also that we manage those numbers down and actually , you know, the

down and actually, you know, the fact that so many people have come on the health and social care visa route again, belies the misery that labour party, the misery that labour party, the labour party likes to paint about our country because we know how popular and how much people want to come from all over the world to work here. but we must manage these numbers down and interestingly manage them down to what previously criticised the labour party has previously criticised our our policy around salary thresholds and so on. well the independent office for budget responsibility has said that our measures that we're bringing forward to tackle legal migration will see a legal migration halved by june next yean migration halved by june next year, down to 300. still, 6000 336,000. >> too much, isn't it ? >> too much, isn't it? >> too much, isn't it? >> that's the obr's prediction. that's the obr's prediction. and of course, we will monitor these policies and we will ensure that as we go forward, we are trying to bring these policies down

further and in the health space and social care space, what we've also wanted to do is ensure that we are training our domestic workforce to take on these important jobs. so we have record numbers of doctors and nurses in the nhs today, thanks to record levels of investment by the government. but what we want to do is train even more doctors, nurses, gp's, dentists and midwives and through the long term workforce plan that we introduced last year, we are already seeing medical school places increasing. we're seeing nursing retention and recruitment increase. we are seeing we want to increase gp training by some 50% by the end of the decade, so that we have a really , really strong workforce really, really strong workforce here in the uk with the measures to manage migration, whether legal or illegal. >> okay. i mean , some people >> okay. i mean, some people watching and listening to this will be saying that 336,000 legal migrants into this country is completely unsustainable. but just in reference to your point

about the nhs workforce . about the nhs workforce. >> yes. last year. >> yeah, yeah. okay. but you know, we had pledges. we've had pledges from the tories about tens of thousands, which now look utterly they don't just look utterly they don't just look ridiculous, they just look like lies . like lies. >> well, in this general election campaign, we are going into the campaign with this raft of measures to tackle both legal and illegal immigration. you know, the prime minister has put a lot of effort and political capital into tackling illegal immigration in particular. and if you'd said to me 18 months ago that we would have cut small boat crossings by a third, i would have i would have been happily surprised. but we have achieved that, and we've done that through a programme of work , not just rwanda, but across the board. >> just on this point , that's >> just on this point, that's all well and good, but you're having to reverse your own numbers because all of this has happened under 14 years of tory rule. but let's talk about the nhs. you make this point about

record spending on the nhs and indeed record numbers in terms of recruiting doctors and nurses. and yet we discovered last month that productivity in the nhs has gone down by 15. the nhs is now less productive than it was before covid. what's going on exactly right. >> and this is why. so before before covid, that decade of conservative governance and nhs england being set up, we had productivity of around 2, which compared very favourably with the private sector. but with the pandemic, it took an enormous toll on the nhs. we all understand that. and since then, even though we have record spending, as you've said, even though we have more clinicians , though we have more clinicians, more nursing nursing staff and more nursing nursing staff and more admin staff than ever before, we have not reached those levels of productivity that we want to see. which is why at spring budget, the chancellor put forward the productivity plan worth some

£3.45 billion in order to drive up productivity . and so we have up productivity. and so we have a plan to improve productivity , a plan to improve productivity, and it will include things such as using ai in clinicians appointments so that clinicians aren't spending 25% of their time tapping away at a keyboard, looking at the screen. that is greatly reduced, and we think it will free up some 13 million clinician hours when this comes through. that's just one measure that we're looking at. we want to roll out technology for frontline staff so that we're not having, you know, nurses and doctors aren't having to take ages to. i want to ask you about pharmacies. we're using ai ages to. i want to ask you about pharmacies. we're using al on scanners, which is which is great news for people who are waiting for waiting. cancer diagnosis, because we know that they will do they can diagnose cancers so much more quickly. so there's a real plan there . there's a real plan there. >> let's talk about pharmacies. i mean, this pharmacy plus pharmacy first scheme should be welcomed, not least because under theresa may, the conservatives tried to slash the number of community pharmacies. i remember it vividly because we

campaigned against it vociferously on the sunday express. so this is progress . express. so this is progress. although the national pharmacy association has said this is worrying . you're not paying worrying. you're not paying pharmacists enough. and also when it comes to the issuing of serious shortage protocols for drugs , this means that medicines drugs, this means that medicines aren't available to pharmacies. they're up by an astonishing 230. >> so let me deal with pharmacy first. then i'll come to medicine shortages. so pharmacy first. we launched this at the beginning of the year and in its first month, we saw some 120,000 people being looked after under pharmacy . first, it shows that pharmacy. first, it shows that for the seven most basic conditions , the more comfortable conditions, the more comfortable we all become with the programme of pharmacy first, the more people will start to use it. and this is important not just for pharmacists, because we want to use these highly skilled professionals to the top of their license . it's also their license. it's also important for you and me as patients. it means that we can get access to health care much, much more quickly than if we are waiting for these most basic

conditions through gp practices. it, of course, also takes some of the heavy lifting off gps, and we think this first tranche of pharmacy first will free up to 10 million gp appointments when it's at full scale. so we're building on that and we're now increasing pharmacy first to women who have contraceptive needs , to women who want help needs, to women who want help with their menopause, but also to people who have skin and chest infections. okay, all of this of course done with clinical advice. that's the absolute priority . and what is absolute priority. and what is more, with pharmacy, the first tranche of pharmacy first, we have put some £645 million towards it. we have 98% of pharmacists now signed up to it. with this second tranche. we have said across the board with pharmacy first, with gp surgeries and with these new community diagnostic centres, we are going to fund this. it's fully funded , we're going to fully funded, we're going to fund it partly through a reduction of managers in the nhs. we talked about productivity earlier on. there

are now more managers before the than before the pandemic. we want to bring it back to pre—pandemic levels , but we're pre—pandemic levels, but we're also tackling the use of management, management consultancy across government. >> but just before you answer the drugs shortage thing, hang on a second. sorry. just before you answer that, just yes or no answer. theresa may was completely wrong to try and slash community pharmacies, wasn't she ? yes or no? wasn't she? yes or no? >> well, we know that. well, i think community pharmacy has a really important part in our health care system, both on our high street but also the expertise, of course. so the former prime minister was wrong. and why can't we just admit that? so the well, what i'm trying to say is that i this pharmacy first scheme is a brand new scheme. it has come about because of rishi sunak's experience of having. >> i know, but theresa may tried to do the complete opposite so she was wrong. it's okay to admit that we can all admit that

now. no no. >> well, no, the what i'm trying to say is that we know that pharmacies actually, we have some well, four out of five people across england are within a 20 minute walk of a pharmacy. so i'm not familiar with the policy that you're espousing . policy that you're espousing. >> she tried to slash community pharmacies. >> i'm doing everything i can. okay. well, i'm not familiar with that policy. i'm being honest. i just i with that policy. i'm being honest. ijust i as with that policy. i'm being honest. i just i as health, all i can focus on is what i can control. and what i can control is the rollout of pharmacy first and the expansion of pharmacy first. now coming on to medicines shortages, we have some 14,000 medicines that are licensed to be used in the nhs. the overwhelming majority of those medicines have no supply issues . they're available. issues. they're available. there's nothing to be concerned about. we know that with every you know , every, at every point you know, every, at every point in our medical supply chain, there will be occasions where

because of international factors, whether it's in the supply chain itself or with the manufacturers , they may have manufacturers, they may have difficulty creating or developing a particular product. we you know, this does happen, sadly, from time to time. and this is why the nhs has very established protocols in place, including with the, you know, whether alternative medicines can be used , the different can be used, the different dosings can be used and so on. so there are very established protocols. we are doing everything we can to try, you know, to try to get the supplies from manufacturers to some of those medicines that we've heard about over the last few months. but it's really important that people feel reassured that we're able, you know, the overwhelming majority of medicines, there are no supply chain issues, and people are able to get the medications. >> victoria atkins , you've been >> victoria atkins, you've been really, really generous with your time this morning and i'm very, very grateful for it. thank you so much. thanks. well, coming coming up next, i'm going to be speaking to the shadow home secretary, yvette cooper, our labour on course a monumental win.

will starmer's

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news, where we've heard from the conservatives. now let's hear from labour. i'm delighted to be joined by shadow home secretary yvette cooper , the shadow home yvette cooper, the shadow home secretary. i hope you can hear me. okay. thank you very much indeed for joining me. okay. thank you very much indeed forjoining me this indeed for joining me this morning. let's start with the simple , best and most simple, best and most straightforward of questions. it only requires a yes no answer. has diane abbott, as the sunday times today suggest, being offered a peerage by labour. >> that's not something that i'm aware of as shadow home secretary. >> as you can imagine , you >> as you can imagine, you wouldn't expect me to be involved in any issues around either nominations to the house of lords or any of these other procedures. there's a proper process here, and no party can

have these kinds of arrangements in place. you have to go through a proper process with the house of lords, independent committee that that vets people. >> so you're not aware of it , >> so you're not aware of it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't happened because it is on the front page of a national newspaper. >> yeah, you get quite a lot of things on the front pages of national newspapers as, as you and i have probably learned over very many years. >> well, i mean, keir starmer's on the front of the sun on sunday saying he's going to bnng sunday saying he's going to bring down immigration. >> i mean, who knows what we can trust before we get on to that very important topic. and i can tell you all about that one. all right. please do. can we just talk about private school and vat on private school fees? first, there's a kind of triumvirate of stories which are suggesting that this policy might need to be rethought out. first of all, we've got downham prep in norfolk, where a third of the pupils are special needs, saying they have to shut down as a direct result of this policy suggestion by labour. and the headteacher has said that it

will punish, quote, ordinary parents like plumbers and electricians . lie—ins. we then electricians. lie—ins. we then have the unions, the national education union, saying that they will oppose this policy if it means that private school teachers lose their jobs. and then we've got a survey of the national governance association that's 3000 school boards saying that's 3000 school boards saying that they're already seeing a significant rise in private pupils having to go into state schools mid—year. and there's no spaces for them. so this policy is going to be a calamity, isn't it? not just for the private sector , but for their parents sector, but for their parents and for the pupils ? and for the pupils? >> well, we think this is about fairness. other organisations and institutions have to pay vat. we do think it's fair for private schools to pay vat, and for that money to be used to recruit 6500 teachers for our schools , our state schools, schools, our state schools, right across the country, to make sure we can get mental health professionals into our schools because there is a

mental health crisis going on with our children . so i think with our children. so i think this is a fair and sensible thing to do. i know that there have been many institutions that have been many institutions that have been many institutions that have been raising their fees for their own reasons over the last few years. that's for them to decide and to explain . but we decide and to explain. but we think this policy is just about having a fairer approach across different organisations and making use of that money to give have the best possible chances for children in schools right across the country. >> might it be that private schools have put up their school fees because of the cost of living crisis that the labour party keeps on blaming the conservatives for? i keep on asking shadow ministers this question, and nobody so far has been able to answer. so with your wisdom and political experience, i hope you can well on. there's a forecast that between 40,000 and 224,000 private students may have to leave their schools . what will leave their schools. what will labour do to accommodate them in the state sector? labour have

campaigned saying that schools are overcrowded and oversubscribed. genuine question logistically, even if you had an exodus at a conservative estimate of, say , 5 to 10,000 estimate of, say, 5 to 10,000 private school pupils, where are you going to educate them come september? if you win the election ? election? >> well, the calculations and the work that bridget phillipson, our education shadow education secretary vie and others have done is that in terms of both the funding that's raised and in terms of the process around this, is that this can all be managed and i look, i understand obviously there is quite a lot of lobbying there is quite a lot of lobbying there is quite a lot of lobbying going on at the moment involving some of the private schools that don't want to have to pay the vat, and it's for the private schools for them to decide what impact that that has in terms of their fees. but we just do think this is about having sensible arrangements in place that are

fair across different organisations and making sure that we can fund the big increase in teachers that we need, the mental health professionals in our schools that we need , and make sure that that we need, and make sure that we can get the best possible future for all of our children. okay so when you say it can be sensibly managed, are you planning to put up temporary classrooms in september? >> are you planning to try and build schools between july and september to accommodate these pupils? how will you physically do it ? do it? >> well, we do think it can be sensibly managed. we think that this is the right thing to do and we think that we understand that there are a lot of different lobbying organisations and some quite well—funded lobbying organisations that are trying to kind of set out all series of different things, which actually are not the way we expect this to be implemented. >> but all i would just simply say, i do think this is just a matter of fairness. i understand that there are people who are lobbying within this, but this

is just a matter of fairness, and they think this is right to put that investment into our state schools and into the education, the teachers that we need. and really the future that we need for all of our children. >> i'm just going to try a final time and let's try and put it a bit easier. are we saying that there will be a chance that the next labour government, if you win the election, is going to have to put up temporary classrooms? should we agree on that ? that? >> i think look, camilla, we've set out our policy. it is for private schools themselves to decide and they will need to pay the vat just like everybody else does. it's for them to decide what that what then they do about their fees. there's been a lot of, i think, deliberate lobbying going on about what the notations will be. >> i'm saying if but we do recognise they have already increased know they have already increased know they have already increased their fees very substantially over recent years. >> i think it's for them to decide that it's really not.

it's not for them to decide potential future labour government to decide, because it's really for us to say, look, we want a fair system in place and we want to make sure that that funding can go into our schools across the country and our kids future . our kids future. >> but it's going to be for the labour government to decide how to educate private school pupils whose parents can no longer afford the fees. so how and where are you going to accommodate them? i can't understand why none of you can answer this very simple question i >> -- >> well, i think m >> well, i think it's for private schools themselves to decide, okay, we're getting nowhere in terms of their fees . nowhere in terms of their fees. we're saying they should they should fund they should pay vat , should fund they should pay vat, but it's for them to decide what they do in terms of their fees, because, as i said, many of them have had seen very substantial increases in their fees in recent years. so it's for them to decide what they do around their fees. >> okay. we got we're getting nowhere , shall we talk about nowhere, shall we talk about immigration? starmer has said in the sun on sunday. as i mentioned earlier, read my lips.

i'll bring down immigration. what are you going to bring? legal migration down to a yvette coopen legal migration down to a yvette cooper. can we have a figure, please ? please? >> well, net migration has trebled in the last five years under the conservatives. one of the biggest drivers of that has been work migration . because the been work migration. because the uk is failing around the skills shortages and the need for the workforce planning that has really been abandoned under the conservatives so what we'll do is introduce new rules , a new is introduce new rules, a new law effectively to make sure that where there is overseas recruitment , that also has to be recruitment, that also has to be proper training plans and proper workforce plans in order to make sure you can reduce that work migration that we've seen shoot up. we're not setting a target , up. we're not setting a target, a specific target on it. and the reason for that is partly because the conservatives have just effectively ripped up all the targets that they've set over many years. they've discredited the whole process , discredited the whole process, but also more importantly, because there are short term

factors that can affect the numbers, including in the pandemic. obviously, net migration came down for artificial reasons because of the ukraine war. we had a year when a net migration went up again for one off reasons, because of the homes for ukraine visa and what we think instead is we need to have a long term approach that is about bringing net migration down and tackling the failings in the system , okay. >> when you say that you can't give us a figure , just a very give us a figure, just a very quick final question. the obr is baking in a net migration figure of 336,000. is that too high? would you like to see that number reduced? let's try and make it a bit more broad. >> well i think the, the obr, they've the office of budget responsibility. their figures have been all over the place in the last few years. you know they sort of changed it every single year. so i don't think those figures are clear cut. but look the government has said that it wants to reduce net

migration and they've set out some visa measures which we have supported. however, we are going further than the conservatives on this because we think that this is not tackling the heart of the issue. just to give you one fact that i think gets to the heart of this engineering visas have doubled in the last few years. engineering apprenticeships have halved. that shows where the system is failing. we want to make sure we've got proper training , we've got proper training, workforce plans, apprenticeships and support for engineers so that we don't have this doubling of engineering visas. so that we don't have this continuous problem of the immigration system picking up the pieces for the failure in the economy . and the failure in the economy. and we can't have this kind of uncontrolled free market approach to migration, which is what the conservatives have had in place for the last few years. >> but if you don't think that you should achieve a lower migration level than the one set by the obr , then that seems to by the obr, then that seems to suggest that labour would be happy with net migration of around 336,000 a year. is that

right ? right? >> no, camilla. sometimes interviewers are suggested and people complain that interviewers tried to put words interviewers tried to put words in their mouth . in their mouth. >> they think you're trying to, so you want it lower. i just wanted to know whether you want it lower than the obr target. i know, and i understand your questions. >> camilla. i'm saying that net migration needs to come down. i'm saying that i don't actually think those obr figures are necessarily accurate because they've moved around over very many years and i'm saying that we want to go further than the conservatives plans because they are not targeting the skills shortages and the training requirements. they're doing nothing in the end to tackle the problem . another example, the problem. another example, the number of social care visas has gone up from 3000 a year. it went up to over 100,000 a year in the space of 18 months, because there was no proper workforce plan for social care, no plan to get people who are currently not in employment or training back into the workforce to fill posts. no plan to actually make sure you've got

skills or a fair pay agreements in place. so labour would actually have a proper workforce plan to do all of those sorts of things. that's how we deal with it. that's how we make sure that those visa numbers are actually properly come down. >> yvette cooper you've been very generous with your time this morning. thank you very much indeed . much indeed. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> well, we're going to be talking about the lib dems next because i'm going to be speaking to former norman is ed davey making a bit of a

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. a little ray of sunshine has joined me in the studio now, because the former liberal democrat mp and transport minister norman baker is. i mean, have you borrowed that from michael portillo's wardrobe, or. >> i think he borrows his coats and jackets from me. >> that's right. you've got a little exchange between you,

norman. can i can we grasp the nettle here? sure is, sir. ed davey making a bit of a fool of himself . we've had him going himself. we've had him going down, slip and slides falling into lake windermere, what was the other thing he did? gleefully ride down a hill on a bicycle with his legs in the air. it's unedifying seeing norman. what do you think? >> well, look, i mean, the reality is that over the last how many years, it's been almost difficult . very difficult for difficult. very difficult for the lib dems to get coverage from the media because the media is obsessed with labour versus tory. and in order to get some input into the system , adds, i input into the system, adds, i think this is the reason eds adopt to some of these stunts. of course, they mean nothing in themselves, but what they do is guarantee some coverage. and then when it's standing on a board in the middle of windermere, he can talk about pensions, talk about the nhs, talk about sewage. he can. and it's an opportunity to get himself on tv, which we need to do. we need to cut through and we can't cut through to voters with our issues if we're not being covered. >> but are you cutting through? name me the lib dems top three policies of this campaign.

>> well, i mean, for example, there's the nhs about more gps, 8000 more gps, right. there's an issue about dealing with sewage , issue about dealing with sewage, abolishing ofwat and getting getting the sewage sorted out. there's an issue about collecting on uncollected taxes. £36 billion of taxes aren't collected in this country that could be used for public services. so there's a whole range of stuff we're putting forward the lib dems, another shorter policy. no possible shorter policy. no possible short of is the opportunity to explain those. >> that's what i love about you, norman baker. you've done your homework because i was thinking that maybe you wouldn't be able to name them. whether the public can. whoever knows. now, to be fair to davie and indeed the lib dems from the calamity that was 2019, i think we can predict, can't we, that the lib dems are going to pick up a lot of seats? how many do you think they'll win and where do you think they'll win them? norman? >> well, let me give you a personal answer. this isn't the lib dem answer. this is my own assessment. is that up 50 upwards? and in fact, the more than 50? no, i think so. and the gb news poll you saw the other day. yes. put us very close to the conservatives in terms of

number of seats. the reality is that people have stopped listening to the conservatives. it's abc, anyone but conservatives . it's 1997 with conservatives. it's 1997 with bells on in terms of the public. and people are saying, hang on, hang on, hang on. >> let's just i'm going to cut in there. i don't think it's 1997 with bells on because you haven't got this mass exodus from the tories to labour. you've got an exodus of the tories to don't know and undecided and reform. i mean, what's the what's the polling doing when it comes to tories considering going yellow. well excel centre reform of course helps helps labour and lib dems . helps helps labour and lib dems. >> well our polling shows that we're we're doing very well in the blue wall. it's labour doing better than the red wall. so the amalgamation of red and blue wall and things. yeah boris johnson managed to amalgamate the red wall and the blue wall. the red wall is going to labour by and large. and the blue wall is going to lib dems by and large with a poll for example, and jeremy hunt seat. yes, 53% voted tory last time. then at 29 we're on 35. so that's to be fair. >> jeremy hunt has given an interview to anna's paper, the mail on sunday this morning,

where he's basically said that he's told his children he might not retain his seat so he could suffer that famous portillo moment of 2024. the lib dems breathing down his neck. do you think the lib dems breathing down the neck of michael gove in surrey heath was a reason he stood down? >> i think it's a good possibility. that's the reason. if you look across surrey, look across hampshire, look across sussex, that swathe of the home counties, the tories are in big trouble because the conservative voters down there are, by and large, quite moderate conservative voters. they want pubuc conservative voters. they want public services. they want to make sure we've got good relations with europe . they want relations with europe. they want to be sure law and order is maintained and they're not seeing it from this bunch of estate agents running in the government. >> all right. fair enough. i mean, slight maligning of estate agents, norman. we all need them to sell our houses, can i ask you about the lib dems and christianity? david campanale has said that he can't stand in sutton and cheam and absolutely plum seat for the yellows , plum seat for the yellows, actually, because of a two year campaign against him by activists and local party members. this is because he's a committed christian. the lib dems have got form on this. tim

farron, the former leader who stepped down from politics because his religion didn't augn because his religion didn't align with his party. what's wrong with the lib dems ? what's wrong with the lib dems? what's wrong with the lib dems? what's wrong with the lib dems? what's wrong with being christian in the lib dems? >> the answer is nothing wrong with being. >> clearly there's a problem for david campanale and tim farron . david campanale and tim farron. >> well, no, tim farron is doing fantastically well. >> actually, he's no longer leader . he >> actually, he's no longer leader. he stood down because he was a christian. >> well, he didn't stand down because he was a christian. he stood down because he hadn't actually he hadn't actually handled the issues very well at that particular point. in terms of his belief system. >> but look, i mean, ed davey p&o, what's wrong with being is this a case of like tony blair saying we don't do god , liberal saying we don't do god, liberal democrats don't allow people to do god because it might put off atheist voters. no. >> you find ed davey and i think the rest of the london mps are all christian. as a matter of fact, there's not an issue about that. >> what's happened to this, david? >> i don't know the answer to that. camilla. to be perfectly honest with you. but it's a local issue, is not about christianity. it's probably about david campanale. >> well, he says it's about the fact that, activists and local local party members campaigned against him because of his

outward christianity. well, i don't think that's probably true. well, hang on, he's not here. well, this is what he claims he claims it. >> but all i'm saying to you is that there's no bar on religion at all. and the lib dems, we're at all. and the lib dems, we're a very open church. i've used that word and the lib dem mps ed davey downwards. many of them, including ed, are ferm christians. >> all right. shall we talk about whether the lib dems would consider coalition government again ? i mean, it ended your again? i mean, it ended your political career. you were a fan of coalition governments because there could be a scenario. we've had the bookies shortening the odds on hung parliament this week. if they're in some kind of confidence and supply sort of arrangement with labour or indeedin arrangement with labour or indeed in coalition government, would you advise your former colleagues to do that or not? because what do i say, first of all, cataclysmic. >> well , what all, cataclysmic. >> well, what i all, cataclysmic. >> well , what i say, first of >> well, what i say, first of all, is if you look back at the last 14 years, the coalition government was the most stable government was the most stable government of any government in that period. and we've had a succession of disasters and tory prime ministers and tory only government. so a coalition government. so a coalition government as a sense, is actually quite a good way of

governing. >> so if invited by starmer, davies should do a deal. >> well, no, i think we've got to wait for the results. and i think hypothetically. well, hypothetically, i think it's unlikely to be a coalition because, we've got our fingers burnt. >> last time, if ed came to you and said, norman, you've been around the block a bit, i've been offered a deal to go into coalition government with laboun coalition government with labour. what would you say? >> well, my personal view is we shouldn't do anything unless we got a reform to the voting system. guaranteed. >> so you could hook up with nigel farage and push for proportional representation . proportional representation. >> i think the idea of linking up with nigel farage is a step too far. >> we may well be norman baker. thank you to you and your jacket. this morning. delighted to see you in the studio. by the way, we do ask the lib dems to come on as in actual currently serving lib dem mps. but two weeks running we haven't been able to make it work. damian collins is coming up next. he's the conservative candidate and also an author of a book, rivals in the storm, about david lloyd george. thoroughly interesting it is. so don't go anywhere.

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. i'm having such fun this morning. it's a great time to be alive and be a journalist in an election campaign. but let's just not talk about politics for a minute. well, we'll talk about historical politics, but not politics per se. because i'm delighted to be joined by damian collins in the studio now, who has done a brilliant book on david lloyd george called rivals in the storm. hopefully a picture is flushed up there. doesn't he look distinguished on that cover? damian why did you choose to do this? a sort of study of this former prime minister? >> well, lloyd george was regarded at the time as the man the statesman who won the first world war did more than anyone else to organise the nation's resources to win. but he's someone i thought we'd forgotten about a little bit . but i someone i thought we'd forgotten about a little bit. but i think churchill is such a dominating figure in 20th century british history, he slightly eclipses everyone else . but churchill everyone else. but churchill himself looked to lloyd george for inspiration and influence for inspiration and influence for his own wartime leadership. so i wanted to revisit lloyd george and get beyond the

caricature of him. >> i think that's really interesting because obviously we're going to be commemorating the 80th anniversary of d—day, and there'll be lots of talk about churchill. and something i learned from your book. is this idea of i didn't quite realise the conflict that existed between lloyd george and the military at the time, and it was only when lloyd george insisted that the allied offensive came together under one roof and had one leadership, that actually the allies ended up winning the first world war. is that right? >> well, that's right, that's right. i mean, lloyd george fought for sort of three key things. one was to revolutionise the production of munitions for war on a scale that had never been envisaged, creating new factories to do it, pushing forward conscription , bringing forward conscription, bringing forward conscription, bringing forward the united command, which we had in the second world war. lots of things in the second world war. we started with straight away with things that lloyd george had fought to achieve during the first world war. so they were very substantial reforms. and churchill himself , you know, churchill himself, you know, looked back and talked about looking back at the record of lloyd george and what they could learn from those, the trial and error of the first world war,

because he had to invent really modern government on the go in the middle of a world war, when we look back at passchendaele and some of the horrors of the trenches, would that then explain why later in life, lloyd george was an appeaser in the 19305? did george was an appeaser in the 1930s? did he just think never ' 7 m. again? >> well, i think a lot of people who went through that experience in the first world war wanted to do anything they could to avoid it, and they made mistakes. then in the 30s, in failing to realise that nazi germany was a very different sort of threat. but during the first world war, what lloyd george's concern is, is that the general strategy for winning just seems to be attrition . there's chucking, attrition. there's chucking, pushing more men into the front against the germans, and eventually they will wear them down. and lloyd george was always looking for a different strategy, a way around that would be more effective, that would be more effective, that would save more lives. and that's why he challenged the generals and wanted one general in command of both the british and the french army, so that they worked together more effectively . and i think that effectively. and i think that was a decisive factor. >> do you think he was psychologically damaged by 1914 to 18, just in terms of it being

so horrific, involving so many dead ? and i suppose you know, dead? and i suppose you know, the nature in which those soldiers had to fight that war. and thinking back to the trenches, it was absolutely horrendous. >> well, i think there's one there's one strong strain in his character that i think comes through his leadership in that penod through his leadership in that period of time, which was that he was never a great respecter of experts, institutions, generals, dukes , you know, generals, dukes, you know, people in authority. he looked at problems. he sought the best possible advice and sought new solutions to these challenges, even if that meant meant breaking orthodoxies and upsetting people. and he he did that before the first world war. he does it continuously through the war. and what's interesting about him, he did something that has very rarely been done before. he became prime minister. without being leader of a political party. he was made prime minister by his old rivals and enemies, particularly in the conservative party, who recognised the qualities he had and that they should bury their old differences and work together. during this , during together. during this, during this terrible period. and not only did they achieve that to win the war, but he they sustained it for another four

years after the war. in some ways, what i've tried to examine in the book is those relationships between those people, how it was that this very unlikely group of people came together , and what was it came together, and what was it that held them together, and then how did it break up? >> so simon heffer disagrees with your analysis of lloyd george. this is my telegraph colleague who says quotes lloyd george was not an estimable leader. he was an ambitious charlatan who established a template for the politics to come. i mean, what's your analysis of that? >> i think he had ambition . and, >> i think he had ambition. and, clearly, i mean, he was the first cottage bread man to become prime minister, the first person to break through the prime minister's before had been aristocrats, or they'd been oxford and cambridge graduates , oxford and cambridge graduates, but someone who came from a very small village in north wales to become prime minister is a remarkable journey, and he was prepared to do things that people hadn't done before. to, as i said, break orthodoxies, challenge experts, he once complained about government that there are too many experts in there are too many experts in the department. so when you get rid of the experts like michael gove, exactly, you get rid of

the experts. but one man in charge and things start to happen and i think there's a slight danger with, with, david lloyd george that there's this caricature that's built up of the man who sold honours and had lots of affairs, and that's almost all we know about him. but at the time he was recognised not just by his acolytes, but by his rivals and old enemies as being someone of supreme quality. and i think that's why we should look at that's why we should look at that again and say, well, what was it that made him an effective leader? >> and the other great legacy? i mean, bearing in mind is the last liberal prime minister is his involvement in the establishing of the welfare state. yes. >> that's right. i mean, that's that that predates the world war. i thought what was interesting is, william beveridge, who many people will regard as one of the architects of the health service, you know, was a young civil servant, worked for lloyd george in the ministry of munitions. he was he attracted some of the brightest and ablest people, but lloyd george's view of welfare, i think's, quite interesting today because he saw it as a contribution that, i mean, he invented national insurance , the invented national insurance, the idea that the worker paid some money in, but so did the employer. and so did the state. but everyone put their bit in

together and it was there to stop people falling into destitution. if someone was temporarily out of work, or they had an injury and needed time off, that they needed to, you know, have a little bit of support, he also, after the war, creates the first ever ministry of health. and they did that because what they recognised was the disparity of health amongst the disparity of health amongst the men who got into the services across the country. and there were many people, because of their conditions, who weren't, weren't fit to fight. and that had to be corrected. and that had to be corrected. and you needed a strategy many a way, in many ways, he was ahead of his time. >> i think we can conclude definitely. thank you very much indeed for talking us through that. damian collins rivals in the storm is the name of the book. if you would like to read up on david lloyd george. well, that's me done for another day, although i'm going to be back tomorrow because i'm covering farage at 7 pm. i'll also continue to do this show. of course, we'll be back here next sunday at 930. up next, emily carver is going to be covering michael portillo's show because he's off, possibly borrowing norman baker's jacket . here's norman baker's jacket. here's the . weather.

the. weather. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. >> hello and welcome to your gb news weather update brought to you by the met office . well, you by the met office. well, it's been a fine start to the weekend, and we can expect a largely dry sunday with some sunny spells, so there is some cloud across in the north—west. it should be a little bit of mist and fog to start on sunday, but generally clearing, leaving a pleasant and dry afternoon . a pleasant and dry afternoon. soon it will be cloudier in the north—west of scotland, though with some spots of rain and drizzle. by the time we get to the afternoon and it's here where we start to see those temperatures struggle a bit under those cloudier skies, but elsewhere it's going to be a lovely warm day, particularly across the east coast, where it was a little bit cooler here yesterday day. so through the course of the evening we will continue to see that rain and drizzle spread its way eastwards across parts of scotland,

turning a little bit heavier here at times as well, particularly as it pushes up over western hills. so a largely cloudy evening with rain and drizzle . cloudier across drizzle. cloudier across northern ireland to still with some rain and drizzle here, but elsewhere across northeastern parts of england. central and southern england too. it should be largely dry, with plenty of late evening sunshine , so late evening sunshine, so through the course of the night then we'll continue to see this rain and drizzle move its way south eastwards across the country , and we'll start to see country, and we'll start to see a feed of cloud in from the north. staying largely clear for most of the night across the south, where it will be a little bit cooler here, particularly in those rural spots. but overall a cloudy night on offer, which means it's generally going to be quite mild to start the new working week . so to start on working week. so to start on monday, then fairly mild and quite cloudy. a few brighter spells to start across the south, but it will be clouding over later. we will continue to see this rain and drizzle move its way south eastwards, but by the time we reach the afternoon it should be largely dry, just a cloudier day. overall perhaps

the odd shower down across the southeast later and it will be brightening up across scotland and we will start to see some sunshine break through that cloud. so a little bit warmer here, but overall a cooler day, particularly under cloudier skies. bye for now . skies. bye for now. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers. sponsors of weather on gb news

>> well, a very good morning to you. welcome to sunday with me, emily carver. i'm standing in for michael portillo this morning. now, i start with a remarkable story . today, the remarkable story. today, the labour leader, sir keir starmer, stands accused of copying the reform party's immigration policy. i'll reveal the

similarities between keir starmer and richard tice, plans to reduce immigration in a few moments time. the diane abbott saga takes yet another twist. it's emerged overnight that sir keir is reportedly offering her a peerage to stand down as an mp . is he playing with fire? and yesterday saw a massive march through london with people chanting we want our country back. chanting we want our country back . it chanting we want our country back. it comes chanting we want our country back . it comes after weeks of back. it comes after weeks of pro—palestine protests, anti—antisemitism , anti—antisemitism, counter—protests and the topic of muslim integration, leading the news agenda. how can britain come back together and someone who's laid it all on the line for great britain is one of the few surviving d—day veterans. 98 year old les underwood , who was year old les underwood, who was on a merchant ship diverted to the coast of normandy at the time. he had no idea where it was going to . he'll be here to was going to. he'll be here to share his incredible story and why he thinks national service could be a good idea. and there's a big controversy raging this morning. can you spot what's wrong with this home? i'll give you a little clue. that person is not a labour candidate. he's actually

standing for a completely different party.