gb news. >> hello and welcome to a very special patrick christie's tonight. >> it's cutting taxes, cutting migration , or cutting your migration, or cutting your energy bills. it's the conservatives in me that are going to deliver that. >> i'm looking forward to the opportunity to speak directly to voters through the debate to and put our case. >> it's the leaders debate . the >> it's the leaders debate. the verdict at 10 pm. we'll be going live to the spin room with our political editor, christopher hope. he's got tory minister johnny mercer and labour frontbenchers as well. there's plenty more to get stuck into today . into today. >> we will on july the 4th, win

this seat . this seat. >> a huge crowd turns out for nigel farage in clacton and then . disgraceful scenes also tonight . rac kwasi not safe out tonight. rac kwasi not safe out there . it's labour versus the there. it's labour versus the tories on gender. who do you trust to keep women's spaces and kids safe.7 >> and just to see my beautiful, lovely, well—behaved five year old, change in a matter of weeks was devastating . was devastating. >> a single mum reveals the truth about labour's flagship education policy. it's all go tonight. the leaders debate the verdict. get ready britain, here we go .

we go. i'm going to spend the first hour of this show watching that leaders debate with our audience, who will be in the studio live at 10 pm. who will win .7 they'll decide. i have win.7 they'll decide. i have a top panel, including a former tory special adviser, nigel farage's former press officer and an ex labour adviser. i'll be taking you into the spin room and we will pick out all of the very, very best clips from this debate so you don't have to sit through all of it. ben leo will be with you for the next hour after your news with polly. >> good evening. well, as you've been hearing, the prime minister and the labour leader are facing off tonight in the first tv debate of the general election campaign. migration defence and the cost of living all expected to feature in the head to head between rishi sunak and sir keir starmer. analysis of that straight after this bulletin. elsewhere on the campaign trail ,

elsewhere on the campaign trail, the liberal democrats have been campaigning on social care today , while the scottish national party has condemned conservative plans to kerb visas for migrants. but the home secretary, james cleverly, said today it will strike a balance between the benefit and costs of migration. >> if we are returned to government, we have committed to a scheme to cap the level of work related visas. the migration advisory committee will crunch the numbers to balance the economic needs of the country against the pressure on public services , and suggest on public services, and suggest to the government a level james cleverly. >> meanwhile, gb news recorded more than 200 migrants arriving on uk shores on small boats this morning. four vessels made the trip from northern france after 63 people managed to cross yesterday. that takes the total number of illegal migrants who have arrived in the uk so far this year to now, more than 10,500. that's up 38% on 2023.

well, the labour leader, sir keir starmer, blames the conservatives for the rising numbers . numbers. >> the conservatives have let immigration get out of control. we've got record numbers of people coming to this country and they've now said they're going to have a visa cap. they've not said what the number is. they've got a visa cap without a cap. we did have a visa cap before rishi sunak erg to get rid of it, which they did in 2020, and now they're going back to it. but without a number, it is utter chaos. >> sir keir starmer, meanwhile, a 25 year old woman has been arrested on suspicion of throwing a milkshake over uk reform party leader nigel farage. the new leader was leaving a pub in essex after setting out his goal to effectively take over the conservatives and potentially put himself in number 10. party chairman richard tice says they will not be bullied, while the conservatives and labour have both called the milkshake incident unacceptable . there's a incident unacceptable. there's a

new world tennis number one after novak djokovic was forced to withdraw from the french open. jannik sinner is now the highest ranked player after the defending champion had to pull out with a knee injury. he was due to play norway's casper ruud in a repeat of last year's grand slam final. the injury that djokovic now has also puts his place at wimbledon in doubt . place at wimbledon in doubt. that starts on the 1st of july. that's the news for the latest stories, do sign up to gb news alerts. scan the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. com slash alerts. >> welcome back! and a very good evening to you. what a night. i know things look a bit different around here, but it is a special occasion to that. calls for special measures. this is patrick christys tonight with me ben leo. for the first hour only, we have a very special programme for you tonight as we bnng programme for you tonight as we bring you the great british public's reaction to tonight's first general election debate. let's cross over live now to patrick, who's watching that debate with our live studio

audience of gb news viewers. patrick, how's it going .7 patrick, how's it going? >> well, we invited viewers from right across. >> yes. well, you mentioned the great british public, ben. i'm surrounded by them here. these leaders have just made that opening statement. so keir starmer is talking about change. rishi sunak is talking about a bold plan. it's a bit like goggleboxers. we've got some sandwiches on the go, some cans of diet coke and we've got some cnsps of diet coke and we've got some crisps as well. everyone seems to be enjoying themselves so far. now the people in this room are going to give their verdict later on. i'm just going to ask a couple of them now, so i'll start with you. what could rishi sunak or keir starmer say that might swing your vote towards them? >> i mean, i'm looking for them to both dare to go off script and actually to say things with heart, passion and conviction. if they either of them dare do that, then i might change my mind. >> okay, so you're looking for a bit of personality. are you all right? what about yourself? >> i don't think they can say anything now that's going to make me change my mind. i think everything they say is westminster, blah blah blah. and yesterday at 4:00, i decided who i was going to for vote because

i was going to for vote because i got a clear statement of intent and nothing they can say now will make me change my mind. >> okay, all right. and, look, what about yourself, sir? anything that they could possibly say. >> i'd like to hear some comment about the echr from sunak. potentially. i don't think we will, but it'll be interesting to see if he does play that card. >> okay. all right. well look, over the course of this evening, you're going to keep dipping in here. we will check in. we'll bnng here. we will check in. we'll bring you the very latest. and at 10 pm, of course, we will be giving you the people's verdict. then it's back to you. >> thanks, patrick. some hard hitting comments already. we're only, what, four minutes into the leaders debate, westminster, blah blah blah. by the way, save me some of those snacks and dnnks me some of those snacks and drinks as i'll be in there dunng drinks as i'll be in there during the break, but let's get stuck into the latest of today's political roundup, shall we? two weeks nearly into this general election campaign, and we're now getting deep into the trenches of political campaigning, battle buses, party infighting, plenty of policies flying around too. and of course, today, not forgetting the odd milkshake ehhen forgetting the odd milkshake either. so today, sir keir starmer was out and about in

manchester, launching labour's gb energy plans, where he promised to keep the lights on in britain without relying on moscow despot vladimir putin. >> the country we've got brilliant labour teams out in every constituency fighting for votes in this general election. we're in good form. we're making a positive argument about the choice before the country. i'm really pleased that the prime minister has called an election because we've been waiting for this. we've been working for this. we've been working for this for a very, very long time. it's our chance to get out, to take our argument to the country and to every single voter about the choice at this election between more of the same or turning the page and rebuilding the labour party. >> he looks particularly happy , >> he looks particularly happy, doesn't he? for some reason. meanwhile, the conservatives they announced a new annual cap on migrant visas in a bid to bnng on migrant visas in a bid to bring down those massive net migration figures. speaking in kent, home secretary james cleverly didn't rule out leaving the echr as i say, we've already put forward a set of proposals which are having an effect.

>> we are bringing down legal migration. we've got plans to bnng migration. we've got plans to bring it down even further , and bring it down even further, and we're going to do so in a way that supports the uk economy as well. >> and meanwhile, lib dem leader sir ed davey , he continued his sir ed davey, he continued his party's string of campaign stunts by literally knocking down a blue jungle wall to symbolise their intentions to, well, i guess, scoop up tory strongholds in the south—east and coastal seaside towns. >> but i don't want to put a ceiling on our ambition, so let the whole lot go. >> he's good value isn't he? reform uk leader nigel farage he kicked off his campaign in clacton earlier today, the seat he's hoping to win as an mp, where he promised essex locals he'd stand up and fight for them i >> -- >> we will 5mm >> we will on july the 4th, win this seat . >> we will on july the 4th, win this seat. i'm humbled to be here. i'm flattered by your reception and i promise i will do my best. >> his clacton visit turned sour

a bit later on, though, when he was doused in milkshake by a member of the . public. zahawi member of the. public. zahawi may well look. a 25 year old woman was arrested for that, but mr farage didn't let the incident dampen his day. my milkshake brings all the people to the rally , so that comes as to the rally, so that comes as gb news revealed up to six tory election candidates could switch to reform uk after nigel's shock decision to stand as a candidate . our political editor, christopher hope, revealed earlier tonight that the candidates at least one, by the way, being a former conservative mp in the last parliament, are in a race against time to make up their minds. one told chopper i feel very disillusioned with everything at the moment. they don't understand the impact that the return of farage is going to have. all parties must submit their nominations for the july 4th general election by 4 pm. this friday. this week. so the clock is indeed ticking. but if

the defections do come, where does that leave the future of the conservative party in the coming years? let's get the thoughts now of my panel columnist and broadcaster esther krakue, columnist and political commentator patrick o'flynn, and author and broadcaster amy nicole turner. good evening to you all. thank you forjoining you all. thank you for joining us on this special occasion. i hope you're enjoying the stalls. by hope you're enjoying the stalls. by the way. it's kind of like, great. i'm sure you all. i'm sure you're all saturday vie fans. this is what we do every weekend. let me start with you. what does the future of the conservative party look like? beanng conservative party look like? bearing in mind the polling numbers for labour, and bearing in mind this bombshell exclusive from christopher hope tonight about a potential six defectors, well, i can tell you what i hope it looks like, which is a complete wipe—out, because i don't think the tories should be rewarded for 14 years of incompetence with with actually being able to make any sort of comeback . i being able to make any sort of comeback. i think this whole fear mongering of oh, keir starmer would be worse, actually , w9, starmer would be worse, actually , we, the labour party, is no longer the bogeyman. and if you were so concerned about keir starmer winning a massive majority, they shouldn't have squandered the last 14 years.

conservative voters actually started becoming disillusioned with the conservative party sort of back around 2021. not in the last year with with liz truss and the whole sort of lettuce debacle and all of that. and that's what they need to make to understand there's collective amnesia with the conservative party, and there's such an incentive entitlement that they feel like we can just scare the pubuc feel like we can just scare the public and say, oh, keir starmer is so much worse, and therefore you deserve our vote. actually, keir starmer will probably do just as bad as the last conservative government and good riddance to them. >> and patrick, there was some tweets going around today from tory insiders suggesting that cchq who had put up candidates, spads, a useless spad. in one case, i quote in rather safe seats , and the criticism was seats, and the criticism was that they've not learned their lesson from the past couple of years. they just don't get it. they're trying to pack those safe seats with one nation tories, when arguably some would suggest they need proper right wingers, absolutely . wingers, absolutely. >> and that's one of the most disillusioning things i think, you know, use the phrase one nation, which is their preferred moniker . but nation, which is their preferred moniker. but many of us think of them as no nation tories because

we will have no nation left if they're the ones steering the main right of centre party. i think the conservatives are in shock after nigel farage, announced yesterday that the volt farce and that he was standing in a seat and he was leading , i standing in a seat and he was leading, i think standing in a seat and he was leading , i think the one thing leading, i think the one thing they thought had gone right in this entire period since the election was called, was that they caught nigel on the hop, as he admitted, but i think nigel's got great antennae. he's he's sensing a mood out there for something new, something different. and i predict , something new, something different. and i predict, you know, your audience later on watching that debate between varne starmer and sunak, they may be a little bit underwhelmed. so i would personally be surprised if six tories at this late stage jumped to reform. and i think reform has to be very careful not to reward bandwagon jumpers, because a lot of people will ask , you know, why are we dumping our candidates for people who can just see the winds blowing against them? so i think they

need to look out for that. >> one person was saying today online, a couple of people, actually some tory insiders, suggesting that if there were going to be defections to reform reforms, should make sure they are proper conservatives and not kind of the so—called wets as don't get caught like labour was with natalie elphicke of choosing someone who's got absolutely nothing in common. amy, your agenda, if things play out, as the polls suggest, nigel, staying with reform for five years, he says, how do the tories rebuild themselves? what does their future look like? >> i think they've got two options, haven't they? they're obviously going to be teeny teeny tiny. but the question is, are they going to go back to the one nation conservatism that has actually served them pretty well, or are they going to move further to the right? and what i think will happen is if keir starmer pulls off the next five years, because let's face it, that's our next prime minister, then the opposition won't win. keir starmer will have another term if keir starmer messes things up, then we could be looking at the real opposition , looking at the real opposition, being more with the reform type,

right wing of the conservatives. and i actually think the conservatives, as they are now, they'll be obliterated and it will be the opposition will be reform, really. but i welcome it because it's good to have a strong opposition. keir starmer can take it and it's nice to see well. >> and the conservatives have become a toxic brand. right, right. i mean every generation kind of identifies or has some sort of link with the party. so, you know, people in the 80s remember thatcher, people in the 90s, rememberjohn major , our 90s, rememberjohn major, our generation, the current generation, the current generation that will probably out in the next sort of decade or so. remember the tories of lockdown and the tories of sort of, you know, the disaster that was boris johnson and all of these things. the brand of, of these things. the brand of, of the conservative party now has become actually quite toxic. and so i actually think the there is a real potential that the reform could be the official opposition. this could be cataclysmic. >> but equally, i think a lot of the toxicity has come from as the toxicity has come from as the conservative party lurches to the right. >> no, from within their own party policies that perhaps are poor imitation reform policies. >> i think the introduction of

lurching to the right is what, a lot of people said before the brexit referendum. >> and it turned out that lurch represented the majority of the. but then since that, i would argue the facts of life for a huge swathe of the public are now right wing. there was an immigration control on islamism , immigration control on islamism, and the tories have spent on health care time. all this time, you know, in the centrist mush and all that rishi sunak has done since he called the election is try to court right wing voters. well, sorry it's too late. >> no, he's tried he's tried to court the oldest voters in this country. >> look, let's follow what it is. the conservative government over the last 14 years has been a poundland blair act. they have been a poor imitation act of the blair, even in gordon government. and no one, no one asked for. and with the brexit vote they failed to capitalise on brexit. they didn't even know what brexit would look like. that was the biggest issue. so you had these people, half people that didn't support it and half of them that didn't even know what britain would look like after brexit. they were confused. disastrous bunch and they deserve to be.

>> but i'd say they've morphed into a poundland ukip more recently. and that's also switching people. >> if only. yeah, if only patrick wishes. >> he wishes. i mean, you made a good point, patrick, about, you know, brexit voters, they weren't just right wingers. there was lots of left leaning, voters up in the northeast, especially in the red wall as well. but look, esther, amy patrick will get back to you very shortly. for now, though, as you just heard, nigel farage will stand as reform uk candidate in clacton, here's a list of full list of those who have also declared their candidacy in the constituency so far. jovan owusu, nepal that's from the labour party. giles watling, conservative party. matthew bensalem from the liberal democrats . nigel, of liberal democrats. nigel, of course, from reform uk, natasha osborne , green party and the osborne, green party and the full list of candidates isn't finalised as the deadline isn't until later this week. as we mentioned, it will be published though on the gb news website onceitis though on the gb news website once it is finalised, the channel has invited all of the candidates on air for an interview . right? still plenty interview. right? still plenty more to come this evening. it's going to be a big one, including. well, yeah, a big clash next on the state of immigration in the uk. who do

you trust? which party would you secure? the future of our borders with? this is patrick christys tonight with me, ben. leo, i'm in the hot seat for now, but patrick is with you from 10:00 with a live studio audience. together they will decide who won tonight's leadership debate. rishi sunak also keir starmer. stick with us. but up next is britain full? well none of the major party leaders would put a number on what is an appropriate level of migration. >> you're trying to suggest i, i set a target or a broad target. i'm not going to do that. >> as i say, the labour party are going to claim credit for numbers falling. >> i'm asking about yours. >> i'm asking about yours. >> even though no answers from that lot. >> but i'm hoping to get more from content manager at migration central. charlie downes and immigration ivan samson when go go head to head next. this is

only. welcome back. this is patrick christys. tonight with me . ben. christys. tonight with me. ben. leo. only on gb news. let's cross immediately over to patrick, who's been watching the general election leader's debate with our live studio audience. patrick, is anyone on top through my dna? >> okay. thank you for telling me. >> thank you. yeah. look, this is absolutely fascinating. and let me just remind you that we are watching this all together so that you at home, don't have to make sure that you keep it. you keep it gb news nine till ten, and then this room full of wonderful people, we're going to steam straight into it when they finish some interesting stuff. so far they've gone a bit on the

economy. there was a bit of back and forth about tax. health is really interesting. you will not believe one of the things that keir starmer has just come out with about private health care, by the way, so stay tuned for that. will be clipping all of this up. we'll be pumping it out to you. there's been a couple of boos from the crowd. there's been a couple of cheers. but the people i care about are in this room. sir. who is performing best so far for you? >> i think he is just edging it. it's. if i was to give a percentage, it's 51, 49. it is really close. >> brexit territory that. >> brexit territory that. >> sorry. no, but i think, in some of the things that he said, i think he's appealed to the audiences, better nature and better judgement. and he's really gone on the offensive. okay. >> we've got a fan of keir starmer in a way here, yourself, sir. come on, rishi sunak for me at the time, for the time being. >> yeah. the nhs. yeah, yeah. he's been well he's given a stronger performance so far anyway overall. but the debate so far for me has been quite entertaining. yeah, that's how i put it . put it. >> lovely stuff. all right. well it means that we've got plenty to go after, who else can i ask? i'm just going to. i'm just going to. i'm going to go rogue

here. who's who's winning it for you, sir? >> i think, rishi sunak seems more on top of the details. and he really sort of wraps keir starmer up with odds. ask him that question there about, you know, what would you do? and it was a very bizarre answer that he would he was so opposed to private health that he would let his own family members suffer. i just thought that was baffling, really. so i would say rishi sunak up. >> well, look, one of the great things i'm going to show you later is that clearly these two men have started to take a serious dislike to each other. it's back to you, ben. >> good stuff. thanks, patrick. right back to the show. it's time now for our head to head. okay, now, the uk's latest net migration figures came out at a staggering 685,000. yes, you heard that right. that's despite years of tory promises to reduce them significantly. and with immigration expected to be a key election issue in the coming weeks, britain's political leaders have been setting out their policies with some glaringly obvious omissions. rishi sunak he says the conservatives will impose an annual cap on immigration visas,

but ministers are refusing to give a figure for their target reduction in migration . labour reduction in migration. labour say they would reduce the need for foreign workers by training up british people to do the jobs instead. where have we heard that before? but again, they won't commit to any definitive targets either . targets either. >> well, again, and i understand the question, and i know that you're effectively trying to suggest i, i set a target or a broad target. i'm not going to do that. we are going to be clear. net migration must come down. we believe it's really important. and what clear care has set out is commitments that we will bring net migration down. >> meanwhile, reform uk wants to aim for zero net migration, meaning we'd only allow as many people into the country as we're leaving in the same period. and the lib dems, they plan to scrap the lib dems, they plan to scrap the rwanda plan. there's ed davey coming off his paddleboard. they want to scrap the rwanda plan to provide more safe and legal routes for refugees, lift the ban on asylum seekers working in the uk and shift home office powers over work visas, overseas students and asylum to other government

departments. so tonight i'm asking as party leaders refuse to put a number on appropriate levels of immigration, is britain full? let me know your thoughts by heading to gbnews.com forward. slash your say or tweet me @gbnews and while you're there, why not vote in the poll results coming very , in the poll results coming very, very shortly. but first going head to head on this our content lead at migration central, charlie downes and immigration lawyer ivan samson. good evening to you both. thank you for joining us on this momentous evening. charlie, is britain full? >> there is no other answer to this question . of course it is. this question. of course it is. of course britain is full. our pubuc of course britain is full. our public services are grinding to a halt. people can't get spaces in schools for their children . in schools for their children. the roads are clogged up and full of potholes, public transport. the same story. of course. britain is full. britain in the 20th century, britain had a population of about 50 million, between 50 and 60 million, between 50 and 60 million, and in the post—war penod million, and in the post—war period , most of our period, most of our infrastructure that we rely on today was built to sustain about that many people. today we have estimates vary, but we have

about 70 million in the country, so we're well beyond what our infrastructure was built to sustain. so yes, of course . sustain. so yes, of course. >> but charlie, you think that figure of 70 odd million is far too low, don't you? you think there's plenty of uncounted bodies in the uk? >> there's much to say on this subject. so 70 million or thereabouts is the official office for national statistics estimate. now in two thousand and seven it was predicted by certain supermarkets that the population could be as high as 77 million. now this was two thousand and seven. and the supermarkets are a relatively reliable source for this kind of information because of course, they know how much food is being consumed. and their estimates, as i say, were more in the vicinity of 80 million. so if that was two thousand and seven, you know, we can only wonder what it is today. we don't know. the point is, we don't know what the population of the united kingdom is. >> ivan, the supermarkets and their insurers, they've done some quite significant work on this. as charlie suggested. they reckon britain is full. do you agree with that? are you happy to go along with it? >> no, not at all. >> no, not at all. >> look, we don't have enough workers.

>> we need workers to pay taxes to pay for our public services . to pay for our public services. and the reality is, there simply no data to support what charlie is saying. that might currents are causing, the backlog in nhs waiting lists or causing a shortage in, the housing market. let me make it quite clear. migrants are not entitled to benefits . they pay for their benefits. they pay for their care. so the nhs treatment they get, they paid for it twice, once an annual charge and also any contribution. so they're actually paying double for the service they may or may not get. >> well, ivan, let's talk about let's talk about housing. sorry to interject. we need to build a new house every two minutes to keep up with current migration demand. >> well, where's the evidence? i mean, you you make these sweeping statements and where's the evidence? where's the data which supports that? if you look at the ons report, it simply doesn't say that. >> so i disagree wholeheartedly with the premise that migration

is bad. okay. it's an election point to garnish votes. that's why, you know, blame the migrants for our roads not being fixed. blame the migrants for our we're not having enough houses. the solution is to build more houses. >> okay, charlie, let me let me bnng >> okay, charlie, let me let me bring charlie, because we're quite strapped for time. charlie, you're talking pie in the sky. you're just. you're just scaremongering about migrants. >> well, let's be clear about one thing here, ivan, is somebody who directly benefits from the mass migration industry. he's an immigration lawyer who helps students and others with visas. now let's talk about health and social care visas , last year, half of care visas, last year, half of the health and social care visas that were handed out were given to the dependants of those who came here to work . so for to the dependants of those who came here to work. so for as much talk as there is about how the nhs relies on migrants for workers, it simply doesn't because these workers are bringing bringing along people with them who are taking from the system. and so it ends up as a net negative , but furthermore, a net negative, but furthermore, when it comes to students, ivan, i know you're an expert on this subject. they too bring

dependents and they too take from the nhs. now, i don't need to tell you anybody in the audience who's my age, i'm 22 years old. i didn't i don't need to tell you how expensive and how much of an unlikely prospect it is that i will ever own a house because of how expensive and inflated the market is, and there is no other reason for that than migration, because the nafive that than migration, because the native population is not growing. it is shrinking. and the only reason that housing gets more expensive is simply a supply to demand ratio. we do not have enough supply to meet the demand, and that is only because of migration . because of migration. >> ivan, can i ask you? you surely agree that there's a housing crisis , that the nhs is housing crisis, that the nhs is jam packed. waiting lists are, you know, extraordinary . the you know, extraordinary. the record numbers. nothing really works anymore, does it? you agree with that sentiment? first of all, the first part of my question, i agree with that. okay, okay. let me follow that up. let me follow that up. so you agree with that. so why would it make sense to continue welcoming a city the size of birmingham every two years, knowing that because these migrants are paying taxes, that

you're paying for our public services ? services? >> the reality is, is that we are bringing skilled workers into this country because we don't have enough . i'm all for don't have enough. i'm all for settled workers, british people and those with settled status to have british jobs. i'm for all that, i what are you basing the nofion that, i what are you basing the notion that migrants contribute in their taxes? you don't interrupt me, charlie , i'm all interrupt me, charlie, i'm all for that. however that's a long term plan. i work with companies from various sectors airlines, sports companies , fashion sports companies, fashion companies, and the ceos told me the same thing that they'd rather recruit british workers . rather recruit british workers. they can't find them. so what do you want them to do, not recruit them , charlie. them, charlie. >> very, very, very briefly. we're running out of time . 20s we're running out of time. 20s last word to you, look, i think this conversation is done with again, i would encourage viewers to look into ivan's background and understand that he's somebody who directly benefits from the kind of mass migration

that we've had to this country for the last 30 years. now, the contributions of migrants to taxes is it's well known that they are not as high as we are told they are. the office for budget responsibility has massively overstated the contribution of migrants to the tune of billions. so okay, you know, that's that's what it needs to be said. >> all right. >> all right. >> thank you both forjoining us this evening. very much appreciated for your time. that's content lead at migration central charlie downes and immigration lawyer ivan samson. let us know what you think. gbnews.com/yoursay. get on twitter as well. coming up tonight gb news continues our special election coverage as a live studio audience. you've already seen them there in the room behind me, sinking cans of p0p ' room behind me, sinking cans of pop, grabbing their crisps and chocky whilst keir starmer and rishi sunak go head to head. we're going to go back to them and get their thoughts, and they'll be in this studio with patrick from 10:00, finding out who they think won the first leader's debate. rishi sunak also keir starmer. before that, the tories, though they're seeking to rewrite equality laws to define sex as biological .

seeking to rewrite equality laws to define sex as biological. but john swinney and the snp are saying that up in scotland it should be up to them to decide. but can they be trusted to keep women safe in the trans debate? my return to thrash one out next. this is patrick christys tonight with me ben leo

us. patrick christys. tonight with me. ben. leo. only on gb news let's go straight to patrick, who's been watching the leaders debate with our audience. patrick, what's going on?

>> to gain access? >> to gain access? >> yeah. i absolutely cannot wait for 10 pm. when we get stuck into it. this is a room divided . it's a nation divided. divided. it's a nation divided. we've had big cheers for oil and gas , windfall taxes, cries of gas, windfall taxes, cries of no, they're already paying far too much . but look, sir, just too much. but look, sir, just quickly, i'll just ask you to say, how do you think it's going so far? >> yeah, i think i think the labour strategy room has made a mistake because although there are a lot of undecided voters who don't like what the tories have done for the last 14 years, they are also anxious about lack of detail from labour. and it appears that , prime minister appears that, prime minister rishi sunak is down to the line on detail. but, sir keir starmer is not, coming forward with any detail at all. i think that is a mistake. >> okay, so potentially a lack of detail from mr forensic. back to you in the studio, ben. it's going to be a fantastic 10 pm. >> really looking forward to it. and of course, we've got weeks more left of this general election campaign. britain's news channel is now britain's election channel gb news. stick with us for the entirety of it.

right. coming up, we find out from a private school mum whose child suffers from hearing loss , child suffers from hearing loss, what labour's planned school fees hike would mean for her and her family. but first, rishi sunak. he's announced the tories will rewrite equality laws to define sex as biological . that's define sex as biological. that's going to prevent trans women from accessing women's spaces, such as toilets and changing rooms. they also plan to transfer the responsibility for creating new gender recognition laws away from scotland and back to westminster, which would avoid any future snp attempts to relax gender laws north of the border and unsurprisingly, of course, the snp are far from impressed with their leader john swinney saying the pledges form part of a, quote, deliberate strategy to undermine scottish parliament. >> this is just another step in the conservative attempts to erode the powers of the scottish parliament. it's been going for on some time. it started after brexit, with the internal market act and the conservatives are just carrying on this. >> this whole process of undermining and eroding the powers of the scottish parliament. now, obviously, i don't accept that .

don't accept that. >> and interestingly, former tory mp dehenna davison has also slammed the policy. >> it's really uncomfortable and ihave >> it's really uncomfortable and i have a one friend today. >> i'm sure there are more examples. he's left the conservative party today as a result announcement. yeah, and i think, you know, we have to think, you know, we have to think about our longer term future as a party. and i'm so concerned about how we're treating these sorts of issues, issues that matter to our generation and to those younger than us, the sort of gen z kids who look at our party and go, what on earth are they talking about? they don't speak for us at all. >> all right. tonight's panel back with me. columnist and broadcaster esther krakue, columnist and political commentator patrick o'flynn. and of course , author and of course, author and broadcaster amy nicole turner. esther, is this a win for women? >> is this a win for women? well, it's a win for common sense, because i think one of the things that has made the sort of culture wars so toxic is the fact that the law hasn't been clear. so you've left a lot of room for interpretation, i think. yes. obviously sex is biological, but i think when it comes to the snp and the fact that the anger with this, i think the broader point with

regards to the snp is the fact that actually devolution needs to be reviewed because devolution turns 25 years this september. not many people know that, but this constant battle between sort of the snp and westminster over how far they can reach, can, can actually be solved if we look at the way devolution has been done. >> so you support less powers for scotland? no i support a review of devolution. what does that mean though? >> what does it look like? well, i think what is a better power sharing model, not just between westminster and scotland, but also within scotland? i think the way that the scottish parliament works right now is completely skewed and it's completely skewed and it's completely undemocratic, democratic, and i think it actually needs to be tackled. i think the way that scotland had separate covid policy from the rest of england, and how welsh wales had their own covid policy, it doesn't work. that's not how a union is supposed to operate. >> yeah, it might be argued that nicola sturgeon has something to do with that for the barmy covid policies. amy nicole turner, you support the safety of women in safe spaces, in toilets, in changing rooms. they should be to free get changed and do their business in peace, away from men. >> well it's weird, i had a look at the number of women that have been attacked by trans women in

these situations or sex attacks, but from trans women to cis women in general, over the last 12 months, i couldn't really find cis women. i couldn't really find anything. but are they not just women i could find a lot of incidences of tory mps and sex attacks. so if anything, we need to protect women from tory mps first. >> statistically , i'm not trans. >> statistically, i'm not trans. trans women have the same likelihood of violence against women and nationally as men against women. i don't think this is about saying a trans woman is going to attack in the toilet. i think that's overreaching. that's i think, i think, but it's about comfort. if i have a teenage daughter, i don't want her to share a bathroom with a biological or just get ready for all the patrick men, the trans men in your changing rooms. >> then obviously most trans women are not going to attack women, but trans women are overrepresented among sexual offenders. i know that's a fact by several fold over over, including in in the prison to do with where trans women go to the toilet. >> well, because over 40% of all trans identifying prisoners are in there for such sexual assaults. >> that's the point, right? you can't argue with statistics. do you know, it's just so ludicrous

that the tories are going in on this when they've closed down refuges, they've closed down rape crisis centres, one in, one woman every three days is killed by a man. >> yet they're talking about where a trans person goes to the loo. >> if they opened up the refuges, would it be for trans women as well? >> of course it would. >> of course it would. >> oh, you mean patrick? >> oh, you mean patrick? >> where? >> where? >> esther, where are they? wait. where are they going to go? if a trans woman is raped, where is she going to go? >> into the refuge that coordinate, coincides with the biological sex. the male refuge . biological sex. the male refuge. that's where. patrick. >> well, i think let me bring patrick in. is roughly our sort of left wing person on the panel of left wing person on the panel, roughly ? yeah. panel, roughly? yeah. >> some would argue far left. >> some would argue far left. >> it's a really silly cul de sac to go down to defend this idea that biological men are women. >> and we know that that mps from every party, penny morton in the cabinet still said trans women are women and the conservatives are now sort of saying , oh, we're the common saying, oh, we're the common sense party. well, they've had many years to sort this out. i think the snp are on a losing

wicket and they're doubling down on a losing wicket. i don't trust the we're running out of time idea. >> so it's a conservative idea in the first place. >> all right. divisive topic as ever i'm sure coming up on the rest of the show we're nearly there. patrick has been watching there. patrick has been watching the leaders debate with our live audience. so you don't have to. in mere moments, he'll be here with a live studio audience to take you through all the jaw dropping moments. we'll have clips as well . so to remind you clips as well. so to remind you of what's happened whilst you've been watching this first hour, and the people will decide who emerged victorious on the night. so keir starmer or rishi sunak. talking of sir keir starmer, he says he will not budge on his vat tax raid against private schools. >> tax break for private schools has to go and that will be used directly to fund those places in our state secondary schools. >> but next we speak to the mother of a child with hearing loss who works every night to pay loss who works every night to pay for private school fees and is now terrified for her child's future. you won't want to miss this is patrick christys

gb news. patrick christys. tonight with me . ben. leo. only on gb news. me. ben. leo. only on gb news. let's cross over to patrick now , let's cross over to patrick now, who's been watching the leaders debate? what's the latest? patrick supported alongside me israel's right to defend it. >> look, this has been absolutely fantastic. >> like i said before, a bit like gogglebox sandwiches on the 90, like gogglebox sandwiches on the go, a few cans of coke and some cnsps go, a few cans of coke and some crisps and a room full of people absolutely engrossed in this leadership debate. it's had it all. these two men obviously do not like each other very much. they've moved on to the echr rishi sunak, basically saying that he would pull out of it if needed. we have yet to see that keir starmer saying that he absolutely wouldn't. there's been a bit more on immigration as well. they're now talking about gaza, which is interesting to watch keir starmer squirm a little bit on that. keir starmer, in case you're wondering, has used the line that his father was a toolmaker. i had that on my bingo card. it took him about 15 minutes, also, he did drop a weird line, which is that unless i misheard this,

that he would rather let a relative die on the nhs than go private, which is something we will be discussing a bit later on, rishi sunak just keeps repeating the line that labour are going to raise your taxes by £2,000, very quickly, very quickly. you. who's doing the best so far? >> yeah, i think i think starmer is rather nervous. he seems awkward. a bit like a rabbit in the headlights. i'm very much more impressed with sunak in terms of detail . okay, okay, i terms of detail. okay, okay, i really am. >> all right. there is something quite weird going on. we'll discuss all of this when i come back. but keir starmer is refusing to look at rishi sunak. and to be honest with you, that is getting a bit weird, when we come back, i will be going live to the spin room as well with tory frontbenchers, labour frontbenchers. make sure you stay tuned at 10 pm. >> very very strange. we're going to have some clips of that weird starmer behaviour in just a second, so stick with us. when patrick's back. now, it's been revealed today that even sir keir starmers former secondary school get this is offering parents a fees and advance scheme in a bid to dodge labour's plan to hike private school fees by 20. so reigate grammar, they're one of several private schools offering parents the option to make an advance

lump sum payment, amid fears there could be an exodus of private school pupils to state schools in september if labour doindeed schools in september if labour do indeed triumph at the election. despite the warnings, though , starmer has continued to though, starmer has continued to defend the controversial policy. i'm going to have 6500 extra teachers in our state secondary schools, as we will. >> how am i going to pay for it? and so the tax break for private schools has to go, and that will be used directly to fund those places in our state secondary schools . i places in our state secondary schools. i understand places in our state secondary schools . i understand the schools. i understand the aspirations of those that work and save to send their children to private school. i also understand the aspirations of those that send their children to state schools as i do. and it's about that basic question . it's about that basic question. it's intolerable for me to see teenagers without the teachers they need in our state secondary schools . that's intolerable. schools. that's intolerable. >> so we still don't know yet where these private school pupils will go. if you miss camilla tominey interview with shadow health secretary yvette cooper the other day, please catch up on that. but earlier

today, patrick spoke to amy, who sent her young daughter to a private school in essex. he started by asking what labour's private school tax would mean for her, as a single parent to a child with sen special educational needs. >> i have felt no choice but to send my child to an independent school and this vat , increase in school and this vat, increase in fees would have a massively detrimental impact on me. as you know, a mum who has to work additional hours to try and afford to pay for my child to go to that school, so yeah, it would have a massively detrimental impact on both of us. really. myself and my child. >> could you just explain your child's situation to us a little bit, please, just so we can kind of understand what's actually going for on you? >> yeah. so, i have a six year old daughter, she is currently in year one at school. she has a sensory neuro , hearing loss, sensory neuro, hearing loss, which is permanent and progressive in nature. so eventually she will become profoundly deaf, she started off in reception at our local mainstream school, and we lasted

four months before i had to move her because . because she just her because. because she just could not cope in the large mainstream school. and the sensory environment was too much for her. she was dysregulated and she really needed a calm, small, nurturing class. so in the end, the situation got worse and worse, and i decided to move her, okay. >> and things improved. did they ? >> 7- >> yeah. 7_ >> yeah. yeah. ? >> yeah. yeah. so there's 7 >> yeah. yeah. so there's been a huge, improvement in her mental wellbeing, she's much happier. she's able to settle, she's able to remain in the classroom , she to remain in the classroom, she has lots of friends and a lot of the issues that were apparent in the issues that were apparent in the state mainstream school have now subsided . and, she's far now subsided. and, she's far more supported in her current school than what she was previously. and just to emphasise then, what was it like for her when she was in mainstream schooling, state . mainstream schooling, state. education? it was horrendous. it

was horrendous to see my beautiful, lovely, well—behaved five year old, change in a matter of weeks, was devastating. and i had all sorts of things thrown at me. oh, maybe she's behaving like this because you're a single parent, and maybe it's because her father passed away and it was like, actually, no, her needs just aren't being met. so central child, your school is not able to give her the resources that she requires. hence why there was such a breakdown in placement . breakdown in placement. >> gosh. well, i'm very sorry that you both had to go through all of that. when i speak to labour politicians and i ask them about people exactly like your daughter , they say to me, your daughter, they say to me, well, these children already have some kind of funding plan in place, so it won't really impact them. is that true ? impact them. is that true? >> i'm laughing because that is so far from the truth, at the moment it takes over a year for an ehcp to be granted , and that, an ehcp to be granted, and that, requires significant resource

and fighting from the parents. on top of looking after a child with additional needs. so i can say that there is no funding at all. what? i've not received any funding from my daughter to attend her independent school. i have applied for an hcp. we are now 56 weeks, along the line. the statutory deadline is 20 weeks. and i still haven't got a final plan, and in that a lot of her needs, have been removed from the county council. and so i'm currently in a battle to try to get those needs put back into the plan so that she can have an appropriate placement listed on that legal document. >> gosh. i mean, that's absolutely horrendous, really, to have to hear all of that . so to have to hear all of that. so just to explain as well, because there is another trope i think about, about private schools that everybody who sends their children to private school has got a load of money, and it's some kind of elitist privilege thing. i know that we've explained your daughter's

circumstances a bit there, but what lengths are you going to try to be able to afford that private education at the moment? >> yeah. so, i don't have loads of money. so i am a freelance, freelance interpreter myself, and i always used to work 9 to 5, monday to friday. however, since sending to her the school and for me to be able to pay my fees, i work three additional evenings a week. so i put her to bed at seven, i log on at 730 and i work until 12:00 at night, yeah , three times a week to be yeah, three times a week to be able to have the funds to pay her fees. >> gosh. okay. i mean, that is absolutely remarkable thing that you're doing there. and i suppose it is a testament to a mother's love, isn't it really? you must be bringing you a bit of anxiety. what's happening now? the fact is the polls indicate that we probably are going to get a labour government in a few weeks time, and they are absolutely adamant. in a few weeks time, and they are absolutely adamant . they are absolutely adamant. they have said that on day one, they are going to be hiking up the

vat. so conceivably in about four and a bit weeks time, you on your daughter's life might change. would you like to give a little message? maybe to keir starmer? now what would that be? >> i just hope that you really consider this particularly for the children, the send children who are in independent schools . who are in independent schools. you are not going to save money because their needs are going to because their needs are going to be met. need to be met in a state school that's going to require even more funding than in an independent school. like please reconsider it . and for please reconsider it. and for these children. >> okay, well, can i just say a massive thank you for coming on and for making the time for us today here for my show. and i do very much wish you and your daughter all the best. i know that all of our viewers and listeners will as well. >> that warm feeling inside from boxt boiler dealers, sponsors of weather on gb news. >> hello. good evening. welcome to your latest gb news weather update. some rain to come for

parts of the southeast and the far northwest, but otherwise clear skies will develop. this evening and it's going to be a cold night. that's because this cold night. that's because this cold front is pushing south and eastwards through the rest of the evening, and behind it we've got much colder air arriving and clearer skies as well. so some rain for at first this evening across the southeast, but it will turn much drier through the night, and i think most of us will see a dry and clear night away from the far northwest, where frequent quite heavy showers will continue to push in through the night. it's going to be a much fresher start to the day tomorrow. we could be down into the low single figures rurally and the higher single figures for many towns and cities, but there will be a fair amount of sunshine around, particularly across eastern areas. so eastern scotland could see a bright start to the day. but across the west there's a big difference. across scotland some frequent, very heavy, possibly thundery showers. there's a risk of some hail, possibly some hill snow across scotland as well. showers will continue to push into parts of northwest england, north wales as well, but the further south

and east you are, the more likely you are to stay dry through wednesday and i think it will stay fairly bright, particularly across the south coast into eastern areas of england as well. through the day. there is a risk of the odd shower developing into more central areas of wales, parts of the midlands, possibly by the afternoon. but it's really northern areas that will see the most frequent showers through wednesday. but they for most of us it's going to be a much cooler day. temperatures only reaching 11 or 12 degrees across northern areas, 16 or 17 across the south. it will still feel fairly pleasant in the sunshine across the south, but for many of us, a cold northwesterly breeze and that will continue as we head into thursday as well. another very similar day. a fresh start with showers moving in from the north and west. staying much drier though across the south and the east. still showers to come for northern areas on friday, but by saturday it looks much drier and brighter and a little bit warmer. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather

gb news. >> welcome back. now it's time for the main event with a live studio audience. this is the leaders debate . the verdict. for leaders debate. the verdict. for the last hour, my audience and i have been sat together watching rishi sunak and keir starmer come to blows . almost literally. come to blows. almost literally. at one point, actually, in a televised leadership debate for the very first time. and this is a flavour of how it all went down. >> i have ambition for our country and have a practical plan to deliver it. i've changed the labour party and put it back in the service of working people. >> i'll cut your taxes, protect your pension and reduce immigration. >> 1.2 million. there are now >>1.2 million. there are now 7.5 million. he says they're coming down. and this is the guy

who is good at maths. yeah they are. >> they are now coming down. but this government has lost control. >> liz truss crashed the economy. >> so as ever you say one thing here but your track record says something completely different and you can't be trusted to tackle immigration. >> we will we will get rid of the tax break on private schools to pay for it. that's a tough choice. i do understand that. it's a tough choice. >> okay, so who came out on top? my >> okay, so who came out on top? my panel are bound to be split on this because joining me this evening are columnist and political commentator patrick o'flynn. i've also got former tory party special adviser laura mckevitt and former labour party adviser matthew laza. but of course, the main event really is the people that you are seeing sitting right in front of me as well, who i have had the honour and the privilege of sitting in and the privilege of sitting in a quite stuffy room. actually, it must be said, whilst we share some sandwiches and what i would like to start with a little show of hands if that's okay. so so who do you think won that leadership debate? let's start with sir keir starmer . so if we

with sir keir starmer. so if we can have a little show of hands on that one bloke thought that. okay. all right. okay rishi sunak. right. and there's a couple of. oh, now this is interesting because there's a couple of chaps on the front row here who you presumably just didn't think. didn't think that anybody won. he did mention something to me whilst we were watching it earlier, that every time rishi sunak opens his mouth, you think he's lying? so we'll get the microphone over to him very, very shortly. now what i will say to you as well is that very shortly we're going to be going to what's called the spin room. okay. for some of that live reaction with our gb news political editor christopher hope . he's right in christopher hope. he's right in amongst it. and over the course of this hour, fingers crossed . of this hour, fingers crossed. what we're hoping to get is him with johnny mercer as well, who is a tory minister. wes streeting we think we might be getting and jonathan ashworth and a couple of others. so we're going to be getting our audience members. putting some questions to my wonderful panel, i will just start with our panel right now whilst we wait for christopher, hope to judge up and show us what's going on

behind the curtain. patrick, i'll start from you there. who do you think won that debate? >> well, you know, i've only seen bits and bobs and clips, but the consensus , i think, on but the consensus, i think, on the, the media side is that that sunak performed more strongly. >> but i think obviously he's 20 points behind in the polls. he was more hyped for it . keir was more hyped for it. keir starmers you know, he's not rumpole of the bailey for a barrister. he's quite wooden isn't he? and it was a very cautious performance. so i gather them from what i've seen . gather them from what i've seen. >> okay. all right. now, matthew, i want to let you come back to that. so i think it was actually a score draw. >> in the end, i think that starmer was a little bit underpowered and rishi was a little bit overpowered. he got a little bit overpowered. he got a little bit overpowered. he got a little bit hyper like some, you know, sixth form in the debating society, constantly talking over keir . so i society, constantly talking over keir. so i think when you look at the clips that we'll be doing the rounds on social media, keir will come across a lot better, which is crucial because millions more people will see those than watch the whole thing. keir will come across a lot better and a lot calmer, but you know, rishi certainly had a

strong debating performance and i think for the next one, keir will have to pep his performance. >> all right, now i'm going to go to lauren. but i will just ask if we could get a microphone to this chap in the front row here, right in front of me, this side here, and i'll come to you first, sir. but, lauren, what was your initial verdict to be honest, i think the big winner of the itv leaders debate is actually the bbc. >> this was a really, really, really bad format. they didn't. they clearly didn't have lights in front of them telling them how long they had. they clearly didn't have any kind of structured involvement in, in, you know, this is my structured answer. here is my rebuttal time that i get to have. and julie completely lost control of the room, which meant that both of them look pretty bad for quite a lot of that hour. yeah. >> okay. well, if you want to see someone who loses control of a room, ladies and gentlemen, are you inmates going to be coming? you're with the master tonight. let me tell you that much now. well, we've played a couple of clips for you already. i know that we're going to play a couple more clips for you very, very shortly of some of the highlights of that debate. but i'm going to go to my man here on the front row. and now there was a lot said tonight what was the standout moment for you?is what was the standout moment for you? is there a particular

question you would like to ask this panel? we've got labour, we've got tory and someone who i hope he doesn't mind me saying he's probably reform. yeah. >> there or thereabouts. well i've certainly had flirted with it in the past. right. >> okay. all right. that'll do. come on sir, what would you like to say. >> so i'd like to say to the labour adviser, one thing that i disagreed with was i think rishi sunak dominated. i don't necessarily think he was trying to interrupt, but he was far more on the details. and there seems to be a running theme in labour at the moment that, you know, the erudite camilla tominey absolutely eviscerated the shadow cabinet minister on the shadow cabinet minister on the labour vat policy. so no one seems to be able to answer the second and third round impacts of the disasters. that's going to happen as a result of the policy. yeah. let me come in on that. >> add to that rishi sunak's line tonight. starmer's going to raise your taxes by two grand. how many times did we hear that. £2,000, £2,000, £2,000. g0 on. and i don't think the rebuttal was strong enough. >> i think i mean labour is not going to raise everybody's taxes by £2,000. keir was absolutely right. we've got the highest taxes in 70 years, but i'm not sure he was strong enough in getting that point across in a

in a clear enough way. so that was probably the weakness from keir's performance okay. >> because that was how they opened up this debate that was on the economy. all right. and they were talking about who is basically going to cost you more money. you didn't particularly like what you heard from the labour party there. i don't know, did you what did you make of that? who won the battle for the economy because keir starmer's clap back was. well, the tories have raised tax 27 times. >> yeah. and it's a strong clap back. there's a lot of people who are feeling a lot less well off now than they were before the pandemic. i think the line that the pandemic hit the world, the pandemic hit all the parties, all the nations is true. but it's very hard to remember that when you're feeling a lot poorer than you were maybe five years ago, and you're going into into a voting booth. so it's a very sticky wicket for rishi to try and get off there. but the £2,000 line really does resonate, and i think that that will be clipped and will will come across. and i don't think that starmer had a good enough answer to it other than, well, you essentially bribe treasury officials to come up with that line yourself. yeah.i up with that line yourself. yeah. i don't think that that's a good reflection of how he's going to treat the treasury when

he's there. >> now, patrick, i hope you don't feel left out when i come back into the room, though. i would love to have a microphone on on this front row here. so we will get to them because there was there was a lot of guffawing and chatting in the room. there but before all of that, christopher hope our political ednonis christopher hope our political editor, is in the spin room for us. there he is, the man himself. he's going to pull back the curtain as our politicians desperately try to say, who won? and who lost and all of this stuff. so, christopher, it is over to you, my good man. >> thank you. patrick. with me now is johnny mercer, the tory mp for tory candidate and minister johnny mercer, who won, i think, just go and watch it. >> right. go and watch it. if you want to see who should be the next prime minister. it is so clear. it's night and day, you know, starmer stands there, right? >> if you listen to what he actually says, he says nothing at all, right? so he says he's sorry. he has platitudes. he has noidea sorry. he has platitudes. he has no idea what he's actually going to do. and that is critical. this is not a game, right? this is serious stuff about being prime minister. and you know, you can you can berate, sunak

and so on for having ideas. that's fine. but at least he's got a plan. and we need to stick to the plan and get through difficult times. >> keir starmer landed a blow, didn't he? on your boss rishi sunak, when he said there's a pattern of behaviour, of failure, of your government, rising nhs waiting lists, rising illegal small boats crossings. he's right, isn't he? your government keeps failing on its own measurable targets. >> i don't think it keeps failing, chris, because these things are not black and white. right. so if you actually look at small boat crossings, for example, to other countries, they're going up and up, aren't they? and as you've gone down by a third this year. so it's okay sort of coming out the platitude we're going to smash the criminal gangs, right? what does that actually mean? it's like saying, i'm going to smash a gym. it means nothing, right? it's childish stuff. he's come up with clear plans, you know, returns, agreements and things like that that are having an effect. and politics is difficult. being in government is difficult. being part of a broad church is difficult. if you've been in government for 14 years, you're going to not everything's going to go perfectly right. but you've got a really clear choice here between someone who clearly has a plan, who who's been in this job and has a record of things

like reducing illegal migration, like reducing illegal migration, like he has this year versus someone who literally, you know, wants to go into returns agreement. if you believe in things like controlling migration, if you don't want to pay migration, if you don't want to pay tax, more tax , okay, you pay tax, more tax, okay, you have one clear option to focus on because it's what you believe in. and the thing is, with starmer, with all that stuff, the reason he's all over the place is because this guy believes in nothing . he's believes in nothing. he's perfectly nice bloke, right? he believes in absolutely nothing at all. and you can see that the way he changed policy live on air, we now return believe in returning people to a third country on immigration. he never said that before. right. so just making it up on the hoof. these people cannot be prime minister. it's a serious issue. >> what idea? the audience did like in there was the applause for the vat removal , like in there was the applause for the vat removal, or adding on to vat on private school bills. are you wrong on that? you're the wrong side of the pubuc you're the wrong side of the public on this idea. you're opposing it, aren't you? >> no, i don't think so. i think that it's entirely the right thing to give parents choice. i think actually what this tax is going to do if you speak to ordinary people in plymouth who save up for their, you know, don't go on holiday, who don't

eat out so their kids can go to private school. they're the ones who are going to be hit, right. the super rich will continue to go to private school. so it's ideological. it's like that really weird answer. would you pay really weird answer. would you pay for your relatives to get treatments if they need it? and you had the money and the answer is no from keir starmer these. you know, this is mad, right? this is mad stuff. politics is about pragmatism delivering for people, and it's not about just dying in a ditch over ideological matters. >> i'm surprised you wouldn't pay >> i'm surprised you wouldn't pay for a private health care to ensure that a family member gets better more quickly, was surprise? >> it's weird . okay. and, you >> it's weird. okay. and, you know, if you start thinking down that line, i think, where does it start? where does it stop? this ideological pursuit of socialism? i think it's mad. >> yes or no question. will the tories fight the election on leaving the echr, the european court of human rights? >> look, we're fighting the election. you've got a very clear choice. >> yes or no, johnny mercer. >> yes or no, johnny mercer. >> well, i don't i don't write the manifesto, do i? but he you've got a clear choice there. he said, i will do whatever it

takes. whatever it takes to secure these borders. starmer is more interested in appeasing his mates in the echr. right. so when you go to an election, which is about choice, you can do one or the other. and it's very clear in my view, what we should be doing. >> joining messages. just finally, an mrp poll dropped yesterday sky news you're losing your seat, aren't you? in plymouth moor view. are you losing your seat? i cried all night. >> who knows? let's wait for the poll. >> do you? are you glad there's an election? are you glad we're having an election now? are you glad i love elections? >> because you have to force the choice, right? between people who just peddle rubbish and people who actually have a plan and are used to dealing with the consequences of government. right. so you've got it's literally platitudes like watching a tv show. i'm really sorry about this. i'm really what are you going to do? right? you're not you're not an agony aunt. you're a you're a government. you're a leader. what are you going to do? and there's nothing there. >> johnny mercer. thank you. cheers. thank you. party johnny mercer there. and i think you want to have a quick tour of the spinner. i'm going to walk back slowly if you can follow me. here you go first, sir. ollie. okay, okay. it's a very full place on the on the right here.

you've got wes streeting . you you've got wes streeting. you see that there? patrick wes streeting. he's talking to vicki young on bbc. >> keep going, keep going, keep going. >> okay. we've got a bit of a sky news over there, itv okay, i'll come this way. follow me. this way. ollie, that's . this way. ollie, that's. camilla. camilla turner from the sunday telegraph. out. getting out your way . and here we have out your way. and here we have andy bell from from channel five, victoria atkins, the health secretary. we go on. and if we have all the producers here anxiously getting, getting, listening in this way. ollie, follow me here. gary gibbon from channel 4 news. follow me over here. to the actual big debate . here. to the actual big debate. now, this is where the actual real huddle is happening. over here. you see pat mcfadden, who's the national coordinator for the labour party , briefing for the labour party, briefing newspapers. should we have a listen in? come on. listen over here. there you have pat mcfadden doing a chat there. and there's, matthew daldry out the way from the labour party. now, this is what this is forming the front pages in tomorrow's

newspapers. they're asking here, what did the keir starmer mean by certain things? and you're seeing briefing happening live here for newspapers. so it's a busy time here, patrick, it's quite hot and sweaty, but i don't mind that. >> christopher. >> christopher. >> i absolutely adore you. that's christopher. there are political editor doing fantastic work. we will be going back to that spin room shortly, but let's bring it back here now to us here in our paddington studio . so johnny mercer, quite bullish. you've got a straight choice between one bloke who might leave the echr and one bloke who definitely won't. so if that hasn't made your minds up, then nothing will. but i'm going to bring my audience back in here now. we've got a lovely gentleman here on the front row. what? do you mind just letting us know what your name is? i believe you might have a question to do with with immigration. if you if you just ask it to whoever you want. really? all right. >> even, you know, yeah. my name is ryan, it's more of an observation, actually, the question on immigration, i think i would have liked an apology from sunak because in the last, i think, 3 or 4 years, immigration has kind of tripled legal immigration to completely unsustainable levels. in my

opinion , that wasn't opinion, that wasn't forthcoming. and whether you like it or not, though, you've got an impression, a clear impression of what sunak would do , when it came to keir do, when it came to keir starmer, i was left none the wiser . apart from soundbites wiser. apart from soundbites that i've heard in the last, you know, a couple of weeks, repeatedly, i just didn't understand what he was actually going to do . so. so that was my going to do. so. so that was my observation there. >> okay. well, you mentioned one of those soundbites. i will i will go to you first on this because the apology from sunak did not happen. and i think there might be quite a few people in the country that would like that. but here is a matthew laser, but also a sir keir starmer trademark for you. >> keir starmer said smash the gangs. we put new laws in parliament that have now to led almost a thousand criminals and people smugglers being arrested, serving hundreds of years in jail because we do need to smash the gangs. keir starmer voter against those laws. so as ever, you say one thing here, but your track record says something completely different and you can't be trusted to tackle

immigration. >> well, there was a round of applause for that. i don't want to be disingenuous. keir starmer did also get a round of applause when he initially did say , smash when he initially did say, smash the gangs, i'll come to you first. should rishi sunak have stood there and apologised to the country for record levels of net migration? >> i think he certainly needed to accept that there have been record levels of migration, and that that might have not been what was intended when we ran for office in 2019. whether or not you need to apologise for that, i think is based on your ideology about whether or not we need immigration into this country and at what level we needit country and at what level we need it at, but there was certainly no acknowledgement that, yes, there is a significant increase in legal migration into this country and that that was probably not what was intended by his government. >> before i go to you, matthew patrick, i mean this we saw nigel farage out today and he's, you know, quite a popular chap when he's on the road, when he's not covered in banana milkshake, this is the kind of reason why he can stand and possibly do quite well is because of migration. migration broken

promises. broken promises, absolutely. >> and i think it's game over for the conservatives just because of this one issue. they promised us in three elections in a row, they bring net migration down to the tens of thousands. the last election they said they would reduce overall numbers from about 200,000. they have trebled them through deliberate. and this is legal migration through deliberate policy choices. it's a massive betrayal on an absolute touchstone issue. and i don't think people who might genuinely, generally sort of prefer the tories just about to laboun prefer the tories just about to labour. i don't think they can look themselves in the mirror and forgive this conservative party for what it has done, and suella braverman robert jenrick were pleading with rishi sunak do something about legal migration as it happens, starmer has even worse on illegal immigration. but i'm sorry the tories have been in the hot seat. they've completely betrayed us. >> i'm going to play you shortly. a couple of clips from the immigration back and forth. just in the meantime. well, i'll

go to matthew . could we please go to matthew. could we please get the microphone to our chap in the white shirt at the back here for us. so i'll come to you in a second, sir, if that's okay. right. smash the gang. what do they mean? come on. what do they mean, smash the gang? well, one thing you didn't talk aboutis well, one thing you didn't talk about is the. >> i think that needs to be on the front foot on this because as patrick says, he needs to hammer home the betrayal that the tories have done. not give fake promises that you can instantly wave a magic wand and bnng instantly wave a magic wand and bring legal migration down to the tens of thousands, totally hammer home the tory betrayal and be absolutely clear. for example , labour has now said example, labour has now said that it will reduce the number of work visas. the ft and the economist what people might call the global, you know, the sort of globalists are angry about it, so lean into it. i think sometimes, keir, it needs to get needs to be prouder of what he's actually saying. because in terms of what smash the gangs mean, he didn't use the line that i mean, he didn't use the line that! use mean, he didn't use the line that i use with you every week, patrick, which is that that he wants to use terror legislation against the gang, the gang, the gang masters. >> he didn't say that, did he? no, he didn't say it. i'll be telling them. >> he should be saying it next time. well, right now, hold that thought, sir, because you were the. >> you were the gentleman who put your hand up. i think when i

said who you thought did better and you said keir starmer. so i will come to you. but we are actually going to hear now from actually going to hear now from a labour frontbencher. so, so listen up everyone and we'll react to this. back to christopher hope in the spin room and you've got a labour big hitter with you chris. >> patrick i'm joined now by jonathan ashworth. the shadow cabinet office minister jonathan ashworth will labour increase taxes by £2,000 per person? no, absolutely . why? why couldn't absolutely. why? why couldn't your boss say that? >> he did. he said it was absolute garbage. i mean, obviously rishi sunak kept interrupting him constantly . interrupting him constantly. he's clearly a man feeling the pressure is rishi sunak. they call him tetchy sunak, don't they? in westminster? you'll have heard that plenty of times , have heard that plenty of times, but no absolute garbage. it's actually based on an analysis done by a bunch of treasury special advisers. it's really embarrassing. i used to be a treasury special adviser, and i read it . i treasury special adviser, and i read it. i thought i thought my word. the treasury special advisers are not what they used to be. it's complete and utter nonsense. actually the party that have racked up £71 billion worth of unfunded commitments is rishi sunak's party, and people

will pay more tax or more on their mortgage as a consequence of the desperate , scattergun of the desperate, scattergun policies that rishi sunak has committed to in the two weeks of this campaign. >> so you think you did okay, do you many, many feel he was under pressure and didn't answer this question very clearly? >> well, he made it very clear that that accusation from rishi sunak was absolute garbage. well, i mean, he kept interrupting him , didn't he? but interrupting him, didn't he? but the key thing is this i think the key thing is this i think the british public tonight will have seen a strong leader who wants to change this country for the better. that i've heard him talking about our plan for the national health service, our plan for young people with more schools and more teachers in our schools, with our plan to cut energy bills for good and our plan to tackle those criminal gangs. and i thought it was really, really powerful when keir starmer explained how he was the prosecutor who went after terrorists who wanted to blow up planes over the atlantic, he prosecuted those terrorists, avoiding a british 9/11. what was rishi sunak doing at the time ? he was betting

at the time? he was betting against britain in the financial markets . rishi. rishi sunak not markets. rishi. rishi sunak not backing britain keir starmer defending britain's security from terrorists. >> if you had an ill loved one, would you use private health care to make them better, look, i believe in the national health service. you get you should get the best treatment in the world, the best treatment in the world, the national health service. of course you don't. you don't do it now. and i think, yes or no question and i wouldn't, i wouldn't, pay for an operation in that party's policy is to use private health care to clear the backlog. >> yeah, free. >> yeah, free. >> free at the point of use for people. so you can buy in from the from the private sector. it'll be free. but i don't think we should force people to go private , even though that's not. private, even though that's not. >> that wasn't a question. would you make the choice and the point the tories make is that labour removes that choice for you. >> no we don't. why do we? we don't remove that choice. >> well , if they can, if they >> well, if they can, if they would say that you were, you would say that you were, you would allow people to choose what they want to do in the same way with, with private schools. there was a clause in there for the vat, the vat was removed from private schools that worked

in the audience, didn't it, yeah.i in the audience, didn't it, yeah. i mean, there was applause in the audience for that one. but no, i mean, we're not abolishing private health care. no, not at all. no, it's on on taxation. >> he's the rishi sunak said there . as sure as night follows there. as sure as night follows day labour will put up your taxes. he's right, isn't he? >> we have made a very clear commitment. no increase in national insurance , no increase national insurance, no increase in income tax, no increase in vat. every single proposal we put forward will be fully funded and fully costed. we'll explain where every penny piece is coming from. in contrast, rishi sunak has racked up in a scattergun, desperate, chaotic way £71 billion worth of spending commitments. he won't tell you where the money is coming from. i'll tell you where the money is coming from. your viewers. they're going to be paying viewers. they're going to be paying more in tax and more on their mortgage. if rishi sunak gets five more years, what's confusing for viewers might be that you're against the rwanda plan, but you're in favour of third country processing of migrants. >> how do you explain that? well, we've never been against third country processing. >> the rwanda plan isn't third country processing, isn't it? is it? it's sending people to rwanda after we've processed them. and of course, it doesn't

work. it costs half £1 billion. it'd be cheaper to put people up in the ritz in paris than this plan. it's not working. and, you know, rishi sunak promised to stop the boats. you know, many people have crossed the channel since he made that promise. 40,000. the only reason he's having this election now, because he doesn't want to summer a small boat crossings. people know what he's up to. they've sussed him out. gb news viewers have definitely sussed him out. that's why rishi sunak was feeling so under pressure today. >> jonathan ashworth thank you there and have your viewers sussed him out. patrick >> oh look, fantastic stuff. thank you very much again, chris and jonathan. right. okay. so just in case you flicked over and you wonder what the heck is going on, there was a leadership debate nine till 10 pm. yes, i'm sure you probably watched it. well, what i decided to do here was find some wonderful people, just ordinary members of the public who were going to sit here with us and watch that and just make their own minds up about it. so we are having our very own people's verdict here as you can see as well. i've got my wonderful panel, with us, and we're going to be going in and out of that spin room throughout

the course of the evening, just before i take a question here from a chap in the audience who did say that he thought that keir starmer won that debate . i keir starmer won that debate. i am just going to play you a little clip of what i thought was quite bizarre thing that keir starmer said about private health care and when he would or would not crucially, use it. so let's just have a little listen to this, remind ourselves absolutely no. >> if your loved one was on a waiting list for surgery, no, thank you very much . thank you very much. >> i don't use private health. i use the nhs. that's where my wife works. in one of the big hospitals. as i say, it runs through my dna. okay >> i mean, essentially there was the quite bizarre implication there that keir starmer, who is a millionaire, okay, would not use private health care even if a relative was gravely unwell. you can believe that or not, i suppose. and now my a gentleman at the back here, you thought keir starmer were on that debate. i will say the breaking

news i'm just getting now is that a yougov poll has emerged that a yougov poll has emerged that shows rishi sunak has won the first tv debate. according to yougov snap poll, 51 to 49. so there we go. >> lovely stuff . i said 51 to >> lovely stuff. i said 51 to 49. >> okay, why do you think sir keir won? >> i agree with this gentleman here. i think keir starmer handed himself really well, in the debate , i think he was the debate, i think he was showing strong leadership in not confronting his enemy because for me, rishi sunak was the act of a desperate man desperately trying to cling to on power, throwing everything he could at this keir starmer and his regime and his policies. and he was just trying to shoot in the dark and hoping something would land. whereas i feel that keir starmer , he'd come with his facts, he'd come with his evidence and literally he's just, firing shots at an enemy that is in the darkness and he just knows it's only a matter of time before rishi sunak, evades into obscurity. right. >> okay. now, what i'm going to ask you to do, if you don't mind, is pass that microphone to this lady here who's been shaking her head. but now, in the meantime, i will come to

you. i'll come to you. is that all right? yeah. okay, do you agree with that? what? our gentleman's just said there that he thought keir starmer had had better facts. and i think you were alluding to one of the things that happened in this debate was that keir starmer would never really look at rishi. and i think you think that's because he was a bit beneath him. right. how did you see that going? do you agree with what he's just said there. >> not so. >> not so. >> he didn't answer one single question in any way, shape or form. >> he bluffed. put your mouth a bit closer to your mouth, bluffed his way through the whole thing. >> he didn't answer anything at all. >> okay, so he bluffed his way through the whole thing and he didn't answer anything. that's for you . for you. >> would he use private patient, private medical help? no. he wouldn't. >> okay, matthew, what do you make of that? keir starmer didn't really look at and he kept being asked to look at rishi sunak by the lady that was presenting that show there. and he never did it. do you think that was wise? >> look, i think there was some sort of technical things that my job used to be, you know, telling them where to look, how to, you know, sit on your jacket. i'm probably not doing it myself so that you look smart. i mean, in fact, at the

at the, at the one in media city, |, at the, at the one in media city, i, somebody said, are you aware of the sandwiches? i had to go and buy the sandwiches for the labour team at the 2015 one. so i think there was some sort of things that keir needs to do. he does need to look at rishi because rishi is going to keep trying to get into his eye. and i think on the private health care thing, that is a peculiar answer. it did seem to have a lack of empathy for him, and i think that's one thing that he'll regret is that they didn't seem to, to really let's, let's just drill down into that because i thought that was weird. >> and i wonder whether that spoke actually a little bit to the ideology of the man here who, even if you've maybe got millions of pounds in the bank and you've got a loved one who is conceivably dying, that you still would not use private health, i think patrick, it's also got to do is it's about people at home who, you know, who think they shouldn't have to but feel forced to. >> and i don't think he played into that. >> i don't think he played into that. >> well go on patrick. >> well go on patrick. >> what do you mean? i'm old enough to remember many, many years ago, in the thatcherite era, denis healey, used private health care for his wife, i think was an eye problem , and he think was an eye problem, and he was berated for it. do you know who asked the question?

>> anne diamond . right. >> anne diamond. right. >> anne diamond. right. >> gb news. >> gb news. >> okay. well, i mean, i think the normal person would say you have a higher obligation to a member of your own family than to the taxpaying public in general . keir starmer should general. keir starmer should have certainly made the point. my have certainly made the point. my ambition is for the nhs to be as good or better than private health care across the full range of treatments, but to actually say, you know, i wouldn't prioritise my own family . i wouldn't prioritise my own family. i think most wouldn't prioritise my own family . i think most people family. i think most people think that is a little bit weird. but labour is a little bit weird. >> on its worship of the national health service in all situations. >> okay, one of the other big rounds tonight was on nhs waiting list. let's hear from them and then i'll go back to my wonderful live studio audience. >> waiting lists are coming down. but what keir starmer didn't mention to you, which you did. julie 7.2 million. >> there are now 7.5 million. he says they're coming down. and this is the guy who is good at maths. >> yeah they are, they are now coming down. >> they are now coming down. >> they are now coming down. >> 7.2 when you said you'd get them down 7.2 million, then now 7.5 million, i'd like you to

explain how they're coming down, because they were coming down from where they were when they were higher. >> now on their way down, they are down. >> right. okay. live television. it is quite chaotic. we're taking you right back into the heart of the action. when christopher hope is our political editor, he's in the spin room . and you have, i spin room. and you have, i think, michael gove with us. do you , patrick? you, patrick? >> michael gove is with me now. michael gove, who won? rishi sunak won six nil. were you worried about the audience applauding the labour's vat policy on private schools, no, because we've got a fantastic record on education. we are the party that's improved. >> state schools . and as far as >> state schools. and as far as i could tell, keir starmer was talking about maths . then he talking about maths. then he said he wanted to have 6000 new teachers . there are 23,000 teachers. there are 23,000 schools in this country. so labour's policy appears to be the way to improve education is to give every school a quarter of a teacher. nothing adds up, under labour other than tax increases , because the real

increases, because the real message was that when pressed on the £2,000 tax increase that labour would bring forward, starmer didn't have any answers. he couldn't deny it. starmer didn't have any answers. he couldn't deny it . indeed, he couldn't deny it. indeed, when asked, show us the details, said look , let's not get into said look, let's not get into the details. of course you can't get into the details because labour have no plan other than to raid your wallet . to raid your wallet. >> there's a pattern of behaviour that you got wrong as a government. sir keir starmer said on rising nhs waiting list. he was laughed at by that. your leader, rishi sunak, and also on illegal migration going up is a record of failure for the tory government. isn't it? >> the reason that we have waiting lists in the position that we do is because of lockdown, because of covid waiting. this would be even higher if starmer had been prime minister because he would have kept us in lockdown for longer. and on migration . keir starmer and on migration. keir starmer has been a consistent advocate of an open borders policy. and again, if you want that, if you want migration to be higher, then then of course vote labour. you know that is absolutely what you should be doing. but during the course of this debate, when

he was asked about processing migrants in a third country, keir starmer indicated that he might be open to that. then he realised he was endorsing our policy and he retreated again. what a shambles this is. >> maybe the last time we talked to you as a, as a, as an mp or a minister in this government. do you regret your leader calling an election so far behind the polls? the mrp polls are disastrous, aren't they , as far disastrous, aren't they, as far as i'm concerned, polls are for commentators. debates are where leaders clash . and in this leaders clash. and in this debate tonight we saw that rishi sunakis debate tonight we saw that rishi sunak is a prime minister with a clear plan and bold ideas and that keir starmer has no plan at all other than to increase your taxes . taxes. >> do you worry that no one's listening to your policies? they are bold policies as labour are offering change but no change. but no one's listening. >> tonight was a pivotal moment. tonight was the moment when keir starmer fell over and smashed the ming vase. he's been carrying so delicately. it's in shards on the polished floor and you can tell from the despondent expressions of labour

politicians like wes streeting and john ashworth that they they know their leader is a dud. >> michael crick final question will you miss this? you're on. you love all this spinning stuff, don't you? you love being a politician. well i love it when i can see a great performer like rishi sunak, who is a great prime minister on top of his game . game. >> i'm a conservative. and when you have a great conservative leader like rishi, well, it does the heart good. >> mar—a—lago thank you for talking to gb news tonight. thank you sir michael gove there with his view on how the how the pm did in the debate. patrick you very much. >> we will be going back to christopher hope who's in what's called the spin room, which is behind the scenes there at that debate. if you are just joining us again, i will remind you this is a very different patrick christys tonight i sat and watched this debate with a wonderful studio audience who are now actually giving some of their their verdicts. and i am just going to go to this lovely lady on the front row here. and i would just like you to just give your overall take. you've heard michael gove there. call

keir starmer a dud. i mean, you watched the debate. what do you think about it? >> i'm afraid i agree with him. i think rishi sunak, although i'm not going to vote for him now. he had a lot of facts. he came through with many, many facts. as soon as you went over to keir starmer, he gives a quick opinion, but he has nothing to back up this opinion and not in the debate this evening. but whenever he's asked, where are you going to get this money from for x , y, z, get this money from for x, y, z, it's always from the non—dom reversing the non—dom. that non—dom thing is paying for so much . i am concerned and the much. i am concerned and the other thing that struck me this evening is i think keir starmer is a weak man. and in all honesty, i don't think he is in charge of the labour party. i think angela rayner is and i think angela rayner is and i think if he wins, i think i don't think he'll be prime minister for long and i think he showed his weakness this evening. he fluffed a lot . he

evening. he fluffed a lot. he was stammering, he got nervous, he was blushing . is he's not the he was blushing. is he's not the right man. all right. >> well i think thank you very much for that. it was a really, really good comments there matthew. i think i probably better let you come back to that. >> yeah . i that. >> yeah. i mean i think that's really interesting in what you say. i think keir does need to be more determined in his next performance. and we saw jonathan ashworth , my old, my old ashworth, my old, my old flatmate actually, who, who gave a very determined performance there. and i think that for the next one, which will be absolutely crucial, keir needs to just to fight back because a one on one, he's a very passionate individual, and a very confident individual. he's got a great track record as britain's chief prosecutor, but that needs to come out. i think he does need to be more confident in the performance. certainly >> okay. now i'm going to play a little clip for you and it's to do with the echr. this has been a very, very clear battleground. the echr okay. so you know, is rishi sunak actually going to pull out of it? do we need to pull out of it? do we need to pull out of it? do we need to pull out of it? keir starmer , pull out of it? keir starmer, he's been pretty consistent that he's been pretty consistent that he's not going to do it. let's just hear what was said tonight about the echr >> i'm forced to choose between

securing our borders and our country's security, or a foreign court. i'm going to choose our country's security. every single time. >> if i'm prime minister, we will not pull out of international agreements and international agreements and international law, which is respected the world over . respected the world over. >> right, okay. so clear distinction on the echr there. now, if you were watching and thank you very much . if you thank you very much. if you were, by the way, at 9:00, you will have heard a gentleman who was in the back room watching this debate with me, saying that what he really wanted to hear was some strong stuff from rishi sunak on the echr. he now has the microphone in his hand. what do you like? what you heard. good evening. >> yes, i'd liked a bit of what i heard. i felt it was more of an ultimatum or sort of threat to leave the echr. he said he'd actually prioritise the uk. security first, ahead of an international court, which isn't quite the same thing. i mean, it's good. i don't think it'll shoot the reform fox, one of the

foxes, but i think it's a good start, starmer, on the other hand, just kind of waffled about globalist stuff, which i didn't like very much. >> okay . now, you former >> okay. now, you former conservative special adviser, would you have advised rishi sunak to have been stronger on the echr? >> i think it's very hard to be stronger on the echr without committing yourself to something thatis committing yourself to something that is really huge in advance of a manifesto launch, which is, you know, coming in, i think the next four days or so. but a manifesto that's signed off by everybody could include something like that. i don't think it will, but it could conceivably doing that on your own in a one on one debate is probably not the right place to do that. so i think he's probably hedged as much as he can. i also think the rwanda legislation was pretty bad . legislation was pretty bad. earlier this evening, i had a dnnk earlier this evening, i had a drink with my old boss, david jones, who spoke in the rwanda debate and raised with james cleverly, the home secretary, that section 41 b of the of the bill was basically going to mean that we couldn't ever get this past echr. it's entirely possible that better legislation, more robust legislation, more robust

legislation , would be able to legislation, would be able to pass that threshold without us needing to leave anyway. >> okay , one of the key things >> okay, one of the key things there, i will come to you shortly on this. patrick, i'm very sorry, but i've got a guest i want to bring in. but one of the key things that this debate was sunak relentlessly kind of shouting, really at keir starmer. what are you going to do with people who come here illegally? what are you what are you going to do with them? and there wasn't much forthcoming. just before i go to patrick, i would just like to, bring in the former leader of the liberal democrats, sir vince cable. i believe he was down the line for us, sir. vince, thank you very, very much. well i mean, i will ask, who do you think won that debate ? debate? >> well, i think probably julie etchingham won the debate. >> i mean, she was cool and balanced and there was too much shouting. >> i don't think professional politicians appreciate how much is a turn off when people are talking across each other. i thought that was quite damaging on both parts. i mean, sunak was particularly bad at it, but it wasn't a very elevated debate , wasn't a very elevated debate, as far as the two of them were

concerned, i would say, you know, score, draw. >> okay . one of the other big >> okay. one of the other big features of this general election campaign so far, sir vince has been ed davey falling off, things around the country or cycling downhill and going down waterslides and all of that. i do put it to you that we have a problem with our voting system, sir vince, where the reform party can be on around 12% and currently be scheduled to win no seats, it remains to be seen what the nigel farage effect as to that, but the lib dems can be hovering at 10% and win 39 seats. there's something wrong, isn't there? >> well, there's something wrong with the voting system , it's with the voting system, it's a particularly bad example. i mean, we had , what, 22% in 2010 mean, we had, what, 22% in 2010 and we finished up with just over 50 seats. i mean, the whole system of first past the post is massively disadvantageous for smaller and particularly insurgent party at the moment. it's bad for the reform party and the greens. we also suffer from it. so, you know, we have a common interest in arguing that

we need a fairer, more representative voting system. >> do you think ed davey is ready to potentially be? and i can't believe i'm saying this. the leader of the opposition , i the leader of the opposition, i think that might well happen. >> and it's a conservative vote craters in the way it's doing. i mean, it's a very serious guy. i mean, it's a very serious guy. i mean, i was in the cabinet for five years. he was one of my colleagues. he was the energy secretary, did some extremely good technical work on reviving a nuclear power, on developing green technology . and it's green technology. and it's a very serious post office man. and, the fact that, you know, you have to resort to these gimmicks in a general election campaign and it is it is the way of drawing attention to serious issues.i of drawing attention to serious issues. i mean , he fell off that issues. i mean, he fell off that canoe in lake windermere to illustrate a point about pollution, and he got the message across , much better than message across, much better than writing thousand word articles in newspaper. it gets the message across with a visual metaphor . metaphor. >> so part of me did wonder if he would have got the message

across slightly better if he had suddenly become ill from the quality of the water, actually. but you know, maybe the message you got across is the fact that windermere is fine to swim in, but i do. i do take the point that he was trying to, make. look, when you saw keir starmer and rishi sunak going at it there and the actual results are from yougov rishi sunak 51. keir starmer 49. as well. i mean, where do you think ed davey really fits into all this? i mean, at some point he's going to have to dry himself off and tell us a policy, isn't he? >> well, if we had equitable, debates of the kind that we had in 2010, i think you'd find the liberal democrats would come across much stronger, and he would come across as a very serious, thoughtful individual. so i but if the 5149 struck me as being you know, 5050, it would be my verdict. but it's not very different . no, it was not very different. no, it was it was a score draw. neither of them came across. i think, as particularly attractive or encouraging. the thing that depressed me particularly, and

i'm not a party point, is the treatment of taxation . varne. treatment of taxation. varne. i mean, we have relatively high levels of taxation historically, but not by comparison with other countries. his, most objective analysts believe whoever is the next government tory—labour lib dem, anybody else there is going to be a very substantial increase in taxation, and there is no other way that the public finances can be sustained and the fact that, you know, the two leading spokesmen are assuming that this is not going to happen, you know, sunak's going on about the £2,000 tax burden, entirely fictitious. i mean, i don't know where that number comes from is it's just misleading the public because we are heading a very difficult penod are heading a very difficult period where the public finances are under enormous pressure and frankly, i think we're expecting the parties to be a bit more honest with us about the fact that more taxation is going to come. whoever's in government. >> okay. look, sir vince, thank

you very , very much. that's sir you very, very much. that's sir vince cable there, the former leader of the liberal democrats and the business secretary. i have a gentleman on the front row here who's been itching to ask a question for a little while, but i will come to you, sir. so hold that thought, but now we are going back because christopher hope has got the shadow health secretary with him. where's streeting, i believe, christopher, earning your money tonight. what's going on? >> patrick i'm joined now by. i'm joined now by. it's very noisy here, but i'm joined by wes streeting, the shadow health secretary. >> yeah. sorry. i was just heckling michael gove's over there. >> he's not even a candidate at the general election . he's one. the general election. he's one. he's one of the rats leaving the sinking ship and have wheeled him out one last time. so anyway, enough about michael. >> we'll ask you for that. we asked him if he misses this. he said no. he thinks rishi sunak should be leader. but anyway, there we are. >> well, look, it says a lot, doesn't it? you've got serving members of the cabinet not standing at this election. such is their confidence in rishi sunak. >> back to your party. you lost the debate. a yougov poll says 51% of people think that the won

, pm 49% think that your guy did. well, look, i think that in that debate, the best moments for labour were where keir set out labour's policies, how we will pay for them, the fairer choices we will make, and the fundamental point that when it comes to the chaos we've seen with the conservatives the only way to bring it to an end is change. >> with labour. and that's where keir got the strongest response for rishi sunak, his big problem is his best line was also the barefaced lie . we're not going barefaced lie. we're not going to increase income tax, we're not going to increase national insurance, we're not going to increase vat . every single increase vat. every single conservative prime minister since mrs. thatcher. you know thatcher, major, i think cameron and sunak, they're all increased vat. it's their favourite tories favourite tax vat . and so favourite tax vat. and so they've got a bit of a bare faced cheek going down that line . we understand by the way, not least because you look at the shadow cabinet, you look at people like keir starmer and his humble beginnings, people like myself and bridget phillipson, our backgrounds, we understand

at the moment that working class people are really feeling the pinch in their pockets . they're pinch in their pockets. they're being clobbered with tax rises. we are not going to hurt them in the way the conservatives have. we're going to make fairer choices. going after tax loopholes, tax avoidance , those loopholes, tax avoidance, those big oil and gas giants. that's how we'll make fairer choices. >> but keir starmer didn't really rebut the £2,000 a head tax increase. did he? there was no real answer on that from keir starmer. >> well, i think keir would probably just stood there thinking, well this is just a load of crap, isn't it? i mean, it's just not labour policy. and when people see labour's manifesto, they will see that the promises we make are promises we can keep and promises we can keep and promises the country can afford. every single policy will be fully costed and fully funded, and not a single one of them involves an increase in taxes on working people through income tax, national insurance and vat. those things that really hit working people the hardest, the taxes that they've chosen to put up in recent years to pay for their. but you will tax you will tax pensioners, won't you? >> you will you will ensure that the state pension will be taxed after 2028. >> i think pensioners can judge

the conservatives on their record, which is they are the ones, in fact, the pledge they're making now is to bring back something that a conservative chancellor got rid of . the conservative chancellor got rid of. the biggest risk to conservative chancellor got rid of . the biggest risk to the of. the biggest risk to the state pension is rishi sunak's entirely unfunded pledge to aboush entirely unfunded pledge to abolish national insurance . so abolish national insurance. so that's just one of £71 billion worth of tax and spending decisions they've made. that is liz truss's mini—budget on steroids. so i'd say to pensioners and everyone else, do not give the matches back to the arsonist to finish the job. we will all end up paying a very heavy price for that. you could be health secretary in a month's time. >> you heard there your leader said he would negotiate, but he wouldn't pay 35% pay increase for doctors. you'll be in the room. what will you offer them? >> well, i'm not going to negotiate. live on air. and i wouldn't do that if i was the health secretary either. we do need to move not just on pay, but on a whole range of terms and conditions that junior doctors are really suffering unden doctors are really suffering under. i've been honest with them this side of the election. that 35% is not something we can afford, because i wouldn't want

to make a promise now and then let people down the other side of the election. but given their failure, we've got to get back around the table. we've got to end these strikes and that will be one of my earliest priorities i >> -- >> wes streeting thank you for joining us. thank you for joining us. thank you for joining us. thank you for joining us. wes streeting there with his answers there. he's a busy man. gb news one swear word, but please forgive us is nearly 11:00 at night. >> that's all right, christopher . we will we will forgive everybody. thank you very much. that's christopher hope that our political editor. right. so if you are just joining us again , you are just joining us again, we are here on a very special patrick christys night. i've got a wonderful panel with me. i've also got a fantastic studio audience who were clustered together around a table with me earlier on, watching these debates live. and there's a gentleman here on the front row and you i think you would quite like to talk a bit about. was it some of the green policies that were mentioned at this debate? is that right? yeah. yeah. good what are your thoughts? >> well, i'm sick to death of being pummelled with it all the time. they keep promising it's going to just put your mind close your mouth. it's going to raise jobs. >> where are they going to come from? and if it's so brilliant,

why are we subsidising it? >> okay, why are we. and, there's one question i would like to ask the staff . like to ask the staff. >> so you've got a glint in your eye here. so i wonder what's i wonder what's i wonder what's about to happen. go on. >> doing the covid. they printed so much money, didn't they? quantity fees in all the time. i want to know where that money goes. >> well, don't we all don't we all. yeah, it's a good question. yes, absolutely. >> where does he go ? >> where does he go? >> where does he go? >> okay. well, patrick, i'll start with you because the green stuff first maybe, well, i agree that the, the green thing is just a vibe, and no one's really drilling down into the true cost , particularly on energy bills for labour's talking about a net zero national grid by 2030. >> at. what is that? well they're saying that we'll be able to generate all our power needs without burning any carbon, right. and even to do it by 2034, |

carbon, right. and even to do it by 2034, i believe, is going to cost 93 billion a year, right? to do it by 2030, it will be, you know, i can't do it . you know, i can't do it. >> it's impossible to do it by 2030. and it's impossible. >> is angling for a show on gb news tory mp. he loves it. he loves it . are you? yeah, yeah. loves it. are you? yeah, yeah. >> on quantitative easing. you know, it definitely stoked inflation. so it pilfered all your pockets basically where did they actually go. well, well it helped to pay for the enormous sums of money that rishi sunak as chancellor was putting in the pockets of people to be on furlough, to do no work , but on furlough, to do no work, but on the other hand, not to get sacked. and so post covid we had a kind of slightly quicker return to work than we might have done. i just want to make one point, which is about i will just ask you to just pass them out to someone. i just want to make one more point about the echr and rishi sunak and a false prospectus. we already know the tories will not take us out of the echr when they had their rwanda legislation. 106 tories sitting mps in the one nation

group wouldn't let it go any harder . we group wouldn't let it go any harder. we also group wouldn't let it go any harder . we also know the group wouldn't let it go any harder. we also know the tories have stacked their selections in favour of this one nation group. they would need a majority of 200 just to have a majority in the commons to leave the echr of about one. does anyone think there's a landslide tory majority? >> no, there's definitely a credibility gap. >> it's a complete false prospectus from rishi sunak. he won't do this. >> there's definitely a credibility gap. i also wonder as well, when it comes to what one of the conservative mp's, i think was saying about taxes are going to go up. we all know taxes are going to go up. it might be labour, i don't know, i just wonder about the social contract involved in all of this. we're all paying a huge amount of tax. do we all really feel like we're getting a lot of bang for our buck at the moment? do we feel as though all of that money is going to the right places? and just before i go to my gentleman on the front row here, there was another clip. i'd just like to take us back to that debate. and this is where they were talking a bit about terror and about national security. it got a little bit tasty. so should we remind ourselves of it? >> i rather had my job than work

for extremists like abu qatada and his crown prosecutor. >> so people should an extremist organisation? no, no. >> abu qatada and hizb ut—tahrir , who you work for as well. >> so people can google that and have a look. but there's a clear choice. >> desperate. >> desperate. >> i'm investing more in our country's defence up to 2.5% of gdp. >> okay, you are not doing that . >> okay, you are not doing that. >> okay, you are not doing that. >> okay, you are not doing that. >> okay matthew, i'll bring you in on this because rishi sunak does have a point, doesn't he? you know, keir starmer actually has represented a variety of different wrong'uns. well when he was a barrister, the cab rank principle, you take whatever case it is that you have to defend some pretty unpleasant people. >> but look at his record as a pubuc >> but look at his record as a public prosecutions when he prosecuted terrorist after terrorist . and it was at the terrorist. and it was at the moment where we were having the most success in combating terrorism. so, you know, i think it was a cheap debating point. it really was a kind of schoolboy debating point when people are going to look at his record of putting people behind bars, really nasty people behind bars, really nasty people behind bars, who should be there. >> okay . all right. that's your >> okay. all right. that's your view. i don't know whether people necessarily believe that or not. you know, there's some there's some rumblings in the audience about that. sir, you were you were very engaged with

that debate. you were sat just just near me there. and i could see you were locked into it. come on. what have you got for us? >> yeah, i was engaged to patrick. and the feedback that we get, especially for people like matthew, i'm sure you'll be taking back to your colleagues, that the team around sir keir did not do him a favour. the approach, the strategy. just the manner in which that this is approached was, was probably not the right one because the tories and rishi sunak in particular has always said labour do not have a plan, which is why it almost every question was asking how are you going to do it? what exactly are you going to do it? and it appears that sir keir was not prepared to give answers. maybe he didn't want to do that ahead of the manifesto, he could have simply said wait for the manifesto rather than failing. so this has made it very interesting indeed, patrick, because the tory mps who were worried are probably going to think, hang on a minute, it's not yet game over. and probably some of the labour, candidates

who were taking it for granted will now need to answer that question about how how are you going to revive the nhs? how are you going to stop the boats? how are you going to do this? how are you going to do this? how are you going to do that? that's going to be difficult. jonathan ashworth did very well, but that's what they should. >> that's a really good point and i'll definitely feed that back. absolutely. there needs to be determined in the second, second debate. >> there does. thank you very much that that was brilliant. and i do wonder if there is a whiff of labour party arrogance at times , 20 points up in the at times, 20 points up in the polls. i mean, it would take something unbelievable for them to lose it from here. when i've spoken to a couple of people, jonathan ashworth was one of them actually, and i was asking him about this. this votes for 16 year olds thing. and he just said to me he was like, well, it's not that radical, is it? well, actually it is quite radical, actually. we don't have votes for 16 year olds in this country. you might think that's a good idea. fair enough. if you do think it's a good idea, but it is a massive for shift us to have that. and i don't know if they want to necessarily try to justify some of their policies.

we've got the private school thing . we've got the votes for thing. we've got the votes for 16 year olds. what do you think? >> i think it's interesting that they don't have more detail on how they justify the votes for 16 thing, because they have, in fact, as a party already introduced it in wales. i don't think that it's something that i agree with. i think that the age of maturation in this country is 18. it's the age at which you can drink. it's the age at which you leave formal education. it's no longer 16, it's 18 years old and i think that they need to be more honest about why it is that they want to drop that, but not drop other things in relation to 16 as well. >> one of the things i would be really keen to do, i'm sorry about my producers who've been beavering away behind the scenes here, but i would just like to get a shot of this audience if we can. i'd like a little show of hands if possible on this votes for 16 year olds. i'm really keen to see where people are at on this. okay, so could you put your hands up if you are in favour of 16 year olds being given the vote? no one. you are obviously. yeah. all right. well so matthew lie—ins for labour. so no. and so this is quite interesting because, would you mind just passing the microphone

behind you. sorry to jump on you like this, but you , thought keir like this, but you, thought keir starmer did very well. i don't i'm not going to ask you exactly how you're going to vote, but you seem to think that labour maybe did better there. but you're not in favour of votes for kids. >> no, i think they've at that age they've still got a lot more to concentrate on other than worrying about the vote of the nafion worrying about the vote of the nation . listen, adults can't nation. listen, adults can't even get it right the best of times. so what makes you think a 16 year old is going to be able to make the correct, informed decision? you know, when they're probably just thinking about where they're going to go on a friday night. i think just give them some more time to mature, let them grow into it if they should wish or and if they don't wish, then they don't have to vote, which is one of the great things that we have in this country. you don't actually have to exercise your right to vote. just give them time to mature and let them decide on their own. >> they're not even allowed to buy a beer on a friday night. >> yeah, yeah, but what the evidence shows they're not allowed to, but they but they will do. >> but they again. so again. >> but they again. so again. >> so i can tell you know. >> so i can tell you know. >> but again someone who lives in the real world who operates

not a lot of 16 year olds operate within the law. >> so again, would you trust that 16 year old to go out and buy alcohol on a friday night and then make a voting decision that could impact the nato ? like that could impact the nato? like we said, adults don't make the right decisions at the best of times. so let's just give them times. so let's just give them time to mature and then let them make their decision. >> i have got a matter of seconds left. i would just like to show you 1 or 2 of the front pages very quickly. it's the daily mail fiery rishi comes out swinging and lands big blows. that's what the mail have gone with. let's see what the guardian have gone with. leaders clash on migration , tax and nhs. clash on migration, tax and nhs. so they've played that with a straight bat. to be fair , there straight bat. to be fair, there we go. all right. look guys, thank you very, very much to all of you wonderful people. i would love to do this again. i'm not sure if any of you would, but i certainly would. and i wish you all the very best. fantastic panel and its headliners next. you guys take care. >> on a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather

on . gb news. on. gb news. >> hello. good evening. welcome to your latest gb news weather update. some rain to come for parts of the southeast and the far northwest, but otherwise clear skies will develop this evening and it's going to be a cold night. that's because this cold night. that's because this cold front is pushing south and eastwards through the rest of the evening, and behind it we've got much colder air arriving and clearer skies as well. so some rain for at first this evening across the southeast, but it will turn much drier through the night, and i think most of us will see a dry and clear night away from the far northwest, where frequent , quite heavy where frequent, quite heavy showers will continue to push in through the night. it's going to be a much fresher start to the day. it could be down into the low single figures rurally and the higher single figures for many towns and cities, but there will be a fair amount of sunshine around, particularly across eastern areas. so eastern scotland could see a bright start to the day. but across the west there's a big difference. across scotland, some frequent, very heavy, possibly thundery

showers. there's a risk of some hail, possibly some hill snow across scotland as well. showers will continue to push into parts of northwest england, north wales as well, but the further south and east you are, the more likely you are to stay dry through wednesday and i think it will stay fairly bright , will stay fairly bright, particularly across the south coast into eastern areas of england as well . through the day england as well. through the day there is a risk of the odd shower developing into more central areas of wales, parts of the midlands, possibly by the afternoon, but it's really northern areas that will see the most frequent showers through wednesday. but they for most of us it's going to be a much cooler day. temperatures only reaching 11 or 12 degrees across northern areas, 16 or 17 across the south. it will still feel fairly pleasant in the sunshine across the south, but for many of us, a cold northwest breeze, and that will continue as we head into thursday as well. another very similar day. a fresh start with showers moving in from the north and west. staying much drier though across the south and the east. still showers to come for northern areas on friday, but by saturday it looks much drier and brighter

and a little bit warmer. >> that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers, sponsors of weather

gb news. >> it's 11:00 here with jb news in a moment. headliners. but first, let's bring you the latest news headlines and the top story. tonight, the prime minister and the labour leader

traded blows in the first