gb news. >> good morning, and welcome to the camilla tominey show. it's been another busy week for all the parties on the campaign trail. two weeks down, another four to go until we know who'll be forming the next government as the prime minister. rishi sunak tries to recover from his d—day debacle . all i'll be d—day debacle. all i'll be asking the work and pensions secretary, mel stride , what he secretary, mel stride, what he makes of the latest catastrophic polling for the tories . shadow polling for the tories. shadow attorney general emily thornberry will be joining me. i'll be asking her about labour's tax plans and why she thinks the pm is a liar. chairman of reform uk richard tice will be here, having sidestepped or been sidestepped for farage. i should say . are for farage. i should say. are they now on course to push the tories into third place polling looking very positive for reform this morning. on that note, i shall be speaking to top pollster scarlett maguire, delving into all of the political party's chances at the

ballot box, and nigel west, the military historian and author, will reflect on d—day as well as discussing his new book on espionage, i spy, a jam packed 90 minutes of punchy politics ahead. this morning. so do not even think of going anywhere . even think of going anywhere. or to go through the morning papers. i'm delighted to be joined now by former senior government special adviser james price, who is now the director of government relations at the adam smith institute. and before we look at the papers, james, i mean, i was going to put the story on because it's dominated the front pages since wednesday. this really very, very unfortunate news. the greek authorities have confirmed that the body of a man believed to be the body of a man believed to be the missing british doctor, michael moseley , has been found michael moseley, has been found on the island of semie. moseley went missing after going for a coastal walk on the island on wednesday . we've now heard from

wednesday. we've now heard from the island's deputy mayor, nikita grills, who has said he has been found in the area of aya marina. i can confirm that it is him that comes on the fifth day of a massive air, land and sea operation to find the tv presenter and health guru who popularised , popularised popularised, popularised intermittent fasting and designed the five two diet. he was 67. he's got four children who all then out there this week to join the search, the mr doctor moseley's wife had spoken about how unbearable these last few days have been. and now we get this news, i mean, it's just absolutely horrific, isn't it, james? i don't really know what to say or how to react in any way other than to express sincere condolences to doctor moseley's wife and his three children. what an awful , awful children. what an awful, awful thing to have happened. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> absolutely. right. i mean, unfortunately, most of us can never know what that feels like. and the awful sort of finality of finding a body and the

process of confirmation, it bnngs process of confirmation, it brings some sort of beginnings of closure. but at the same time, it is that loss of all hope as well, that it's just such a gut wrenching feeling. and i suppose , i suppose, you and i suppose, i suppose, you know, the outpouring of worry and concern , goes to highlight and concern, goes to highlight that this man has done an awful lot to try and help people live happier, healthier lives, which is, you know, as legacies go, it's a pretty good one, very good one. >> he'd be hugely missed, very, very well respected. i'm sure gb news will be bringing you more news of developments as they proceed throughout the day in greece to carry out all of the necessary checks that are needed to confirm this very, very sad news that has dominated the newspapers this morning. and of course, election coverage. this d—day story isn't going away, is it, james? >> no, no sadly not. i mean, i think it just it hits at the heart of everything that we believe in of ourselves as a country. the world war ii is a sort of foundational myth of modern britain. now, it sort of replaced an awful lot of sort of

christian imagery and ideology from from thousands of years before that. and it's become the sort of central tenet of everything that makes this country great. and i think that's why it hurts so much. yes, i think i do think on this that it is, whilst it is a pretty catastrophic error of judgement from, from the prime minister and his top team, and he's held his hands up to that, i do think that that's what it is, rather than this being a symbol of being unpatriotic or any of this kind of stuff. i think that's all a pretty nasty thing for someone. you know, there's an awful lot of, well, rishi sunak so great. he could be off in america making lots of money chat where he chose not to do that, and to come to the uk and to get involved in politics, which is, as he's discovering, a pretty brutal game because he thinks he can make a difference. >> also, he said in interviews that he plans to stay on as an mp, even if he loses, which some people might not believe. but that's what he said. as it stands now, james, obviously the labour party keen to capitalise. there's been this row during the week about this £2,000 on tax bills under labour, which was a point of the tv debate on tuesday. the itv debate between the two leaders, now the labour

party are telling the sunday times they've splashed this story, put it on their front page that they are promising a tax triple lock in their manifesto, which i think is due out on thursday . we've got lib out on thursday. we've got lib dems on monday, i think tories on tuesday and labour on thursday. set your alarm clocks folks. attacks triple lock. that's quite clever politics, isn't it? >> well, i think so. >> well, i think so. >> i think it's a wonderful thing in a way from the conservatives that if the main legacy they get of this is to try and box the labour party in from its, its natural kind of dna based instincts to raise taxes wherever it possibly can. the conservatives have raised taxes in lots of ways, and that's been a real pity. i think it's at the highest level since d—day, since the second world war, and that's terrible. but it's that's, i think, for the conservatives, a lack of being able to grip the issues like productivity and growth and things like that. whereas for the labour party, it's in their instinct. they don't think the individuals and families and businesses are very good necessarily at spending their own money. and they think the state can spend it better. so if they've been boxed in and said

they've been boxed in and said they can't raise these taxes, at least that's really good. but of course, that is the three three of the big taxes income tax, national insurance, vat. but they're all kinds of other taxes as well. there are everybody watching now who might be in the background also booking a holiday. they pay extra taxes on those aeroplane flights, pay extra taxes on all sorts of other things. green taxes, oh, so many green taxes of stealth taxes in the background buried into budgets. and what will happen to those? they'll all go up as well. >> i shall ask emily thornberry this. she'll be on a little later on the show. i should be asking her. well, if you're not going to put tax up, how are you going to put tax up, how are you going to put tax up, how are you going to pay for everything? also, a question i'll put to mel stride, by the way, the mail on sunday have done a little bit of an expose on labour and have made suggestions that there are some aspects of the labour party, some caucuses, that want the labour party to be closely augned the labour party to be closely aligned with the eu in the future. and one particular person who's who's a labour board. fiona urquhart, suggesting that they want to bnng suggesting that they want to bring back free movement. just tell me a bit more about that story, james, and do you buy it? >> you think this is from a group called labour international? and this was in a conversation with a newspaper in

majorca. this is a big issue that for the first time, millions of british expats are going to be able to vote. and they haven't been able to before. so it's reaching out and grabbing those. and the assumption being that if you're assumption being that if you're a brit who lives abroad, you like the idea of free movement and some of the brexit shenanigans have caused some difficulties. as we shake these things out, i think there's a broad point that our relationship with the european union is not going to stay as it is now, forever more. no relationship with any other country ever does. these things are always going to be in a state of flux, and maybe we'll bargain in good years and get some better deals and manage to stay out of all the bad stuff that the country clearly thinks and understands correctly, that the european union does. the free movement is a really difficult thing. i mean, we had this in the brexit debate. this is the real sentiment because a lot of younger people like to move around and, you know, that's a wonderful thing to do that's a wonderful thing to do that the problem we've had is that the problem we've had is that if you have an unlimited number of europeans coming to this country to work and to live, and you can't work out how many hospital places they need you can't work out how many school places they may need. we can't build enough housing if we

don't know where they are. those are all the reasons why freedom of movement became such a difficult issue that alongside issues of sort of societal assimilation, everybody getting on. yeah, right. and it's i think it was a sensible thing that ended. the problem was instead of now getting lots of young spaniards, young italians, young spaniards, young italians, young poles who are culturally pretty similar to us, they share similar values, similar religions, similar ish languages and cultural outlooks, and recent history again, the second world war, things like that. and we replaced it not with higher wages for brits, not with cool automation and robots and exciting things like that. we've just been pumping it with more cheap immigration from other parts of the world. we've not fixed that problem and we've not even got people who are quite as culturally similar to us. and we've seen everybody with two eyes to see, has seen the kind of assimilation problems we're seeing up and down the country now. and if they are going to go back to having lots of young europeans as well, well, the numbers are just going to go up and up and up and the numbers game, you know, take back control of our borders. >> well not quite because 2 million people have come in in the last parliament alone. we read on the eu and this close alignment with the eu under laboun alignment with the eu under labour. i find it intriguing because the european elections are going on as we speak, and

we've had some it started, didn't it, last thursday. it finishes, i think today , tonight finishes, i think today, tonight and then we'll get the results on monday. there's this prediction that there's going to be a surge in so—called far right parties. not everyone agrees they're far right, but that's how they're described by the press , we've already seen the press, we've already seen that happen in the netherlands. you know, we're seeing it happen in poland to an extent. we've seen it happen in italy . and yet seen it happen in italy. and yet the likes of david lammy and co want to be closer aligned with these continental cousins that don't agree with them ideologically on anything. >> yeah, absolutely. and i think it's a wonderful irony all this that sadly as it looks like the uk is going to be voting in a very left wing government the rest of the world, it's not just europe is moving on a rightward shift. i suspect we'll see a right wing government in the united states soon. yeah, we're seeing them popping up across latin america and by right wing, i mean i think this is a good thing. someone at javier milei in argentina cutting taxes, letting people take control of their lives. a good thing. we're seeing the european version of that, as you say, happening all oven that, as you say, happening all over. here's an interesting prediction for you. in ten years time, will rejoining the european union be a right wing

issue here in the uk? because the kinds of cultural problems that we're seeing here, they're seeing much worse on the continent. and the sort of things that they'll be doing to address some of those are going to look so punitive, look so, so harsh right now to our kind of soft british eyes. you'll get a lot of trendy lefty labour types saying, oh, thank goodness we're not part of the european union and all the mean things they're doing to secure borders and things like that. >> also, the conditions attached to rejoining will be much higher than the conditions that were attached to any reform deal that david cameron tried to negotiate. these two stories are linked, actually, because there's a story in the sunday telegraph talking about immigration and nigel farage has said this is an immigration election. i'm not quite convinced of that because i think people have different priorities. but record levels of immigration fail to make britain ficher immigration fail to make britain richer , reports the sunday richer, reports the sunday telegraph. this is the big debate, always, james. is immigration a good thing for economy a bad thing? could it have been a good thing? but we've had too much of a good thing. >> i'm going to try not to give the politicians answer. it's

always a bit of everything, right? it's the easy kind of cop out. i mean, it's an obvious point that if the immigrants who are coming in are all supremely skilled, supremely hard working, love the united kingdom, right? my love the united kingdom, right? my other half is american, grew up watching the vicar of dibley, always wanted to come to the uk, got a big, proper grown up job. unlike me in the city, pays lots of taxes, contributes with, you know, great skills, all that kind of stuff. >> sounds like the perfect partner. >> oh, she's the best. >> oh, she's the best. >> well done. yes. >> well done. yes. >> but, you know, so people like that, wherever they come from, if they've got skills and they want to work hard, they want to integrate, that's obviously great for the country. but if you've got lots of people who are coming in and working on low skilled, low wage jobs because brits either won't or can't work at those kinds of salaries and won't be willing to work in those kinds of conditions, and that that is then preventing companies from investing. again, ikeep companies from investing. again, i keep saying this in cool. we can we can make britain a cool, exciting, modern country with robotics that pick fruit and things like that and all kinds of exciting stuff. and instead we're going the other way because immigration is so cheap. and so you used to get your car washed by a cool drive in machine, and now it's a bunch of chaps doing it by hand because it's cheaper to do that. and

we're actually going backwards in the uk on some of these things really quickly because we're running out of time. >> how is nigel farage winning the online war? >> so he's got a tiktok account now. i mean, i think the tiktok is chinese spyware and that we should probably ban it because it's melting. >> teenage government runs tiktok now, much to iain duncan smith's dismay, but he's doing fabulously well on this . yeah, fabulously well on this. yeah, he's ahead of all of the other leaders, isn't he? this is according to the sunday times, on tiktok, on facebook and on twitter . i think. twitter. i think. >> i think that's right. and again, it's just because the guy is pretty unvarnished as gb news viewers will know, says what he actually thinks. yes. right. and if you want to have a funk it, if you want to have a funk it, if you want to have a funk it, if you want to have a personality led election, it helps to have a great, big, exciting personality. >> but do you agree with the influence of social media these days? you've been around the block a bit. you've been in number 10. i mean, is it more about the air war than the ground war? >> i think so i think we're getting to a point now. i've been knocking on doors. people don't like being knocked, having their doors. not right. i feel bad as a brit. i feel a bit awkward, like, i'm really sorry to bother you while you're doing something better with your time than me coming and trying to

talk politics at you, whereas the great people who are watching this channel right now, they're tuning because they want to know what's going on. so i don't mind having this kind of conversation, but if i then pop up in a few hours having you a sort of soggy leaflet in the rain, you might tell me where to go. >> no. well, also as well, i mean, people perhaps don't mind their feeds being interfered with. the other thing is, it's indirect in many respects. you know, you get it's interesting to have seen celebrities have done the same thing. politicians take ownership of their own personas. i mean, you've advised ministers and that traditional form of media has been replaced to some extent, hasn't it, by the likes of johnny mercer and co, you know, recording their own videos and having their own direct appeal to their constituents? >> yeah, absolutely. >> yeah, absolutely. >> right. and that's what people like. they like normal people saying things in a normal way. there's a time and place to kind of talk wonky economics and select committees and all that kind of stuff. but if you're going to be looking on your phone or knocking on your door, you want someone who seems like they're vaguely ever spoken to another human being. yeah, that's always, always shocks me. there are politicians who aren't like that. >> i know we like politicians that speak human, james, you speak human. and i were glad to have heard you speaking this

morning. thank you very much indeed. coming up next, i'm going to be joined by the shadow attorney general, emily thornberry, who is this week accused the pm rishi sunak, of lying when he claims labour would increase household taxes by £2,000. trust me, you won't want to miss it. stay tuned

welcome back to gb news. you're watching the camilla tominey show. i'm delighted to be joined. now by shadow attorney general emily thornberry . general emily thornberry. hopefully she can hear me. lovely to see you this morning. i don't think you've spoken to me before on my show, so it's really lovely to have you on. thank you. you've made an announcement this morning about prisons and that you want to create more space in our already very overcrowded prisons, how many prisons would you like to build? when will you build them by and how much will they cost? so we're going to build 20,000

places, which is what the conservatives promised that they were going to do, but they only managed to build 6000. >> we don't know why, there seem to be two places that have been identified for two prisons, and the money has been allocated, and yet they haven't spent it. we know that there is an absolute crisis in our criminal justice system. we've had judges advised to go slow on cases. we've had we've had police officers advised not to arrest too many people . we've had a too many people. we've had a whole lot of prisoners who've been released because the prisons are just about, you know, overflowing . and they just know, overflowing. and they just seem to be i mean, it's kind of like a it's a really good example of just like what's gone wrong with this government . they wrong with this government. they just seem to have totally run out of steam. they seem to be incapable of even when there's a place, even when there's money, even when there's a need, they still don't seem to be able to do it. so all we're saying. >> so how quickly will you repair the situation and how much will it cost? >> so it's going to take a

while. obviously, as with everything else in relation to this government, because because they , you know, because because they, you know, because because we've because, because the place is just such a mess. so we've got there are two sites that have been identified and we will make sure. and shabana has spoken this morning about this. who's the shadow , justice who's the shadow, justice minister and she's spoken about it already, and she has said there are two sites that have been identified, and her first priority will be making sure that those prisons are actually built. and we need to get on with that. and then we will need to find further sites. and what we're saying is we will use this money that the government identified, and then we will we will also , if necessary, we will will also, if necessary, we will make sure that the secretary of state takes control of the planning process, because this is a matter of national priority. we cannot allow our criminal justice system to fall overin criminal justice system to fall over in this way. >> okay . the other area of >> okay. the other area of pubuc >> okay. the other area of public life, which is overcrowded did are state schools. miss thornberry, now labouris schools. miss thornberry, now labour is proposing to put vat on school fees. i've asked so

far on this show for shadow ministers to answer this question, and i haven't been able to get an answer, so i'm really hoping. fingers crossed you'll be able to answer it. if there is this predicted exodus from the private sector into the state sector come september, when the polls are saying it's likely labour will be in power , likely labour will be in power, where will you accommodate those private school pupils ? will the private school pupils? will the party have to be building temporary classrooms ? you'll temporary classrooms? you'll have to find more school places, won't you? probably upwards of five 10,000. >> so first of all, i think that the private education sector are exaggerating this claim of the number of people who will will leave the believe private education. if you look at the way in which fees have gone up over the last few years, they have gone up exponentially, exponentially . so adding vat to exponentially. so adding vat to it. of course it will increase fees , but you know, they have fees, but you know, they have gone up hugely over the last few years, and yet people have still

been able to afford to send their children there. so i do question, you know, the numbers that the private sector are putting forward. >> it's not the private sector though, is it? >> it's the if vat , the ifs have >> it's the if vat, the ifs have predicted up to 40,000 private school pupils will go into the state sector. >> that's an independent body . >> that's an independent body. >> that's an independent body. >> all right. but nevertheless there are places. i mean, listen , there are places in the in the secondary schools and primary schools in my area and certainly in central london. so if they live in central london, there are plenty of places available they don't need. and if they don't , i've spoken to don't, i've spoken to constituents of mine who are concerned . well, if they are concerned. well, if they are concerned. well, if they are concerned then they will. they will join the state sector and what we need to do, and i need to do as a politician is make sure that the state sector provides schools that are outstanding, that actually people , you know, don't want to people, you know, don't want to send their children anywhere else than to the local nick read because the local state schools are fantastic. >> that's what we need. but

laboun >> that's what we need. but labour, labour have criticised. >> but hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. what i want to say is this right is remember what it is that we're spending the money on. and this really speaks to the state that we're in as a nation. what we want to do is we want to raise the vat in order to pay for additional teachers and to give children breakfast in the morning, because so many children going to our state schools go to school hungry. that's where we are, camilla. and we need to we need to have a government that's prepared to do something about it. and that's what we're going to do. >> its worthy aims. but the criticism of the policy is that it's going to be pushing more private school pupils into already overcrowded state schools. the labour party has made quite a meal of this. they've said that schools are overcrowded and that the quality of these schools need to rise. how on earth do you solve that problem? by injecting what is predicted to be up to 40,000 private school pupils into state schools. also, incidentally, the teaching unions aren't happy about it. the national education union has said that if this

costs private school teachers, their jobs , they will be angry their jobs, they will be angry rightfully with the labour party . so it's also a policy that might cost teachers their jobs. and by the way, it's already closed down. two independent schools. >> i've as i've already said, there are schools that certainly have vacancies . you know, there have vacancies. you know, there are my primary schools and my secondary schools have space and they're very welcome. and they are good schools . and people are good schools. and people should send their children there. i mean, it's fine, you know, and if we have to in the short term, have have larger classes , we have larger classes, classes, we have larger classes, you know, the, the, the, so you will make classes larger to accommodate rate goes up and down. right. >> how big should classes be to accommodate this policy . accommodate this policy. >> oh come on, what we need to do is we need to raise the money in order to make sure that children going to state schools have had breakfast. that's what our priority is. and we need to raise the money from somewhere . raise the money from somewhere. and what we're going to do is we

are saying everything we're going to spend money on. we're saying where the money is coming from because we have a properly we will have a properly costed manifesto and all our spending commitments will be, will be costed and we will be able to say where it comes from. and sure, you know, there may well be complaints about it. i understand that, but i'm afraid that if i have a choice between putting vat on private schools and making sure that the children in my area can have breakfast before they start learning, i know where i am, but it does sound as if you've got a choice between putting vat on private schools and having larger class sizes. >> i mean, one of tony blair's pledges famously , was to keep pledges famously, was to keep class sizes at 30. you're now saying that class sizes should be higher to accommodate your own policy. so how big should classes be? 3540? there are classes be? 3540? there are classes that are larger. >> and but i tell you what's happenedis >> and but i tell you what's happened is that because because the because of the underfunding of schools, the number of classroom assistants has gone. so it used to be that you would

have a teacher within a school, but you'd also have a classroom assistant , but you'd also have a classroom assistant, and but you'd also have a classroom assistant , and they've gone, you assistant, and they've gone, you know, in private schools, private schools that i have visited, the classes are eight, nine, ten, you know , fantastic. nine, ten, you know, fantastic. and they only have one teacher in state schools. they don't they no longer have the number of classroom assistants that they used to. that is a tragedy. we underfund our state system. and what we are doing is ensuring that we begin as one of our first steps is to make sure that we're putting more funding into the state sector. and we're going to we're going to have more, more teachers. there's another 16,000 teachers coming. we're going to make sure that the children are fed. you know, it's not okay. you know, it's not much to ask. and if it means putting vat on private schools, i mean, the question is right. let me just say this. the question is, is it appropriate in these circumstances for you know, for schools such as eton or winchester or whatever to be seen as a charity and that therefore they should not be paying therefore they should not be paying vat on the huge fees that are already charged? i mean, i honestly the counterargument to that, miss thornberry, is but,

you know, isn't it is the counterargument to that is it might be counterintuitive to be punishing the private sector and then end up punishing the state sector, too, because it's so overcrowded it can't accommodate the extra pupils. >> we're fast running out of time . quick. yes. no answer if time. quick. yes. no answer if you're going to. >> i don't agree with you. >> i don't agree with you. >> you know, we love agreeable disagreement on this channel, miss thornberry. so i'm glad that we've had this conversation . we're going to have to leave it there, i'm afraid, because we are fast running out of time. but i do appreciate you. you're the first person to be fair to. you have given an answer to that question beyond rhetoric. so i do thank you. and thank you for joining me this morning. it's a pleasure. coming up next, i'm going to be speaking to mel stride, the work and pensions secretary has the pm recovered or he recover from his d—day blunder. stay tuned

welcome back. much more to come.

in the next hour, i'm going to be joined by the work and pensions secretary, mel stride and reform uk's chairman, richard tice. but first, here's the news with theo chikomba . the news with theo chikomba. >> it's 10:00 the news with theo chikomba. >> it's10:00 on the news with theo chikomba. >> it's 10:00 on theo the news with theo chikomba. >> it's10:00 on theo chikomba in the gb news newsroom. a body has been found in the for search tv doctor michael moseley, who went missing on a greek island earlier this week. the deputy mayor has confirmed that the body was found in a cave of a rocky area beside aghia marina. the 67 year old vanished on the island of symi after he set off on a walk from saint nicholas beach, but failed to return home. greek police, firefighters, local residents and tourists had been searching on a rocky area north of the village of petty, where he was last seen. the conservatives are set out are to set out a plan to

save around £12 billion a year by tightening the criteria for those who claim benefits. it would see more people told to find work, including some who received disability payments. the prime minister has also pledged to tackle what he's called sick note culture. it would mean gps are no longer able to sign people off work with special without specialist workplace health professionals given their responsibility instead. labour called it a vague promise that won't get britain healthy or bring benefits under control . benefits under control. meanwhile, labour is pledging to alleviate some of the pressure on overcrowded prisons with a plan to add 14,000 new places. it would see some prisons classified as sites of national importance, so ministers can take control of planning decisions. it comes after some inmates were released early due to severe overcrowding across the prisons system . the

the prisons system. the government previously promised to deliver 20,000 new prison places by the mid 2020s. just 6000 have been created so far. shadow attorney general emily thornberry told gb news. the problem is getting worse . problem is getting worse. >> there seem to be two places that have been identified for two prisons, and the money has been allocated , and yet they been allocated, and yet they haven't spent it. we know that there is an absolute crisis in our criminal justice system. we've had judges advised to go slow on cases. we've had we've had police officers advised not to arrest too many people. we've had a whole lot of prisoners who've been released because the prisons are just about, you know, overflow going and they just seem to be i mean , it's just seem to be i mean, it's kind of like a it's a really good example of just like what's gone wrong with this government. they just seem to have totally run out of steam. >> time spent waiting for an ambulance would be cut under a plan set out by the liberal democrats. it would see an extra thousand staffed hospital beds,

which the party said would help end excessive handover delays and patients having to wait in corridors for treatment. the party says the proposals would be funded through an upfront capital investment of £280 million to extend urgent treatment centres for the latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. com slash alerts. now it's back to . camilla. to. camilla. >> thanks, theo. welcome back to the camilla tominey show . right. the camilla tominey show. right. what have we got coming up? in just a minute. i'm going to be speaking to work and pensions secretary mel stride. i'll be grilling him on the prime minister's d—day blunder. and what he makes of nigel farage's claim that reform is set to overtake the tories. i'll also be speaking to the pollster scarlett mccgwire. are we going to witness a historic moment at this election? and i'll be joined by the chairman of reform uk. once the leader richard

tice, i'll be asking him why one of his candidates that he hoped would be running for reform has just defected to the conservatives. and nigel west, military historian and author, will be here to tell us about his new book about real life, james bond's. but i'm delighted to be joined now by work and pensions secretary mel stride. lovely to see you, mr stride . lovely to see you, mr stride. first time we've had you on the show, so welcome this morning , show, so welcome this morning, you've announced that you want to cut the wealth . thank you. to cut the wealth. thank you. you've announced that you want to cut the welfare bill by 12 billion. but isn't this yet another tory pledge undoing some of the bad work you've done over the course of the last 14 years? why did the welfare bill get so high under a tory government ? high under a tory government? >> well, we've had covid, of course , amongst other issues, course, amongst other issues, and that has led to an upsurge in sickness and disability, particularly mental health issues, amongst younger people, 16 to 24 year olds, for example. so that's why we're announcing

today that in our manifesto, we'll have a commitment to over half a million additional talking therapies within the nhs. we will be having mental health teams for every single primary secondary school in the country, and fe college , and country, and fe college, and we'll have mental health hubs, 150 of those across the country for those aged between 11 and 25. and alongside that, camilla, of course, what we're doing is reforming the gateway into benefits , which we know from benefits, which we know from what the obr tells us. for example, with the work capability assessments, changes that we're making , that that that we're making, that that will mean 440,000 fewer people on those long term benefits going forward . going forward. >> okay. on d—day, does the prime minister still expect 18 year olds to do national service when he can't even stay to the end of a service ? end of a service? >> well, clearly, the prime minister accepts that he made a mistake in not attending the

international element of those commemorations. he was there, incidentally, at portsmouth, and he did attend all the british led events in normandy. but he absolutely recognises that he made a mistake to have left . made a mistake to have left. when he did, he's issued an unequivocal apology. he uses the words i am sorry , and knowing words i am sorry, and knowing him as i do, i think he will be feeling this very deeply because he's a deeply patriotic man and we, in terms of supporting veterans, are obviously around the cabinet table. we have a dedicated cabinet minister, johnny mercer , who looks out for johnny mercer, who looks out for veterans affairs. the prime minister is completely committed to the really good work that johnny and others have been doing in better looking after, but he's undermined that good work, hasn't he, with legislation in the next parliament. if we're elected, he's what he's done. >> he's undermined that good work, hasn't he? i mean, johnny mercer's not happy about this. penny mordaunt certainly wasn't happy about it on the friday

night bbc election debate, she said that the prime minister was wholly wrong. i appreciate what you're saying about him issuing an apology . has he personally an apology. has he personally apologised to the veterans themselves ? so i don't know themselves? so i don't know exactly who he's apologise to. i know that he has made a very clear, very public apology, actually. and you mention johnny mercer's response to this. amongst the other things johnny has said, i'm pretty certain that johnny has recognised the extraordinary commitment that the prime minister has shown to veterans and to the great work that johnny has been doing, looking after veterans mental health, looking after their housing situation and going even further now and saying in our manifesto, we will have a commitment to bringing in legislation in the next parliament to enshrine those kind of levels of support into law. if we become the next government. >> i mean, i appreciate the phrase, you know, advisers advise and prime ministers decide . and it was ultimately decide. and it was ultimately rishi sunaks decision to leave the commemorations early, which,

as you say now, regrets. but isn't there a problem with inexperience, incompetence and a degree of arrogance among the prime minister's top team ? i prime minister's top team? i mean, is it advisable, for instance, mr stride, to have your best friend as your chief adviser? that's not objective, impartial advice, is it? >> well, what my observation would be, i don't work very closely at the centre of the campaign , but i do have some campaign, but i do have some deaungs campaign, but i do have some dealings with it is i have always found it extremely professional, very focused we are the party that is coming out with the bold offering to the british people. for example, in my area , the triple lock plus my area, the triple lock plus which is going to prevent millions of pensioners being dragged into income tax in the years ahead . this is important years ahead. this is important because the labour party is saying they will not support that. so they are prepared under labour to see millions of pensioners paying income tax and paying pensioners paying income tax and paying more tax if they're already paying tax. and that is

what you're going to get under a labour government. and these are the big issues at this election. but you've dragged more pensioners into paying income tax because you've frozen the tax because you've frozen the tax thresholds for such a long time . so you have to look at time. so you have to look at where you are with the current fiscal arrangements and then ask the questions, do we leave taxes where they are, put them up or take them down? we've taken a decision to take those taxes down for pensioners. labour have taken a decision to put them up and of course what we have done is supported pensioners incomes really strongly. so since 2010, the state pension has gone up by 300 and sorry, £3,700. under labour we had the fourth highest level of pensioner poverty in europe , and that's because they europe, and that's because they gave us the £0.75 increase for pensioners. so you know what you're going to get under us pensioners being out of tax. and you know what you're going to get under labour. people paying more tax including pensioners . more tax including pensioners. >> a few things have been reported this morning just in reaction to the d—day debacle. first of all, that the prime

minister isn't really that interested in international affairs or going to these major events, and that actually david cameron is the de facto pm on the international stage. i mean, it did look like that in that photo, didn't it ? photo, didn't it? >> oh, no, i can't accept that. the prime minister is not fully engaged with international affairs . he's been fully affairs. he's been fully engaged, particularly with ukraine, for example , where the ukraine, for example, where the reason why we've been in the vanguard of supporting ukraine in terms of money and training for their personnel here in the uk and material that they need for progressing the defence of their country. the prime minister has been absolutely at the forefront of that . yes, the forefront of that. yes, i think nonetheless i think david cameron has been a great asset. you know, as a foreign secretary who's been out there with a huge level of connections and presence and, and experience, to , to help us on the various international issues we face. well experience is the key here. >> i revert back to my previous statement about the team lacking experience and competence and

maybe behaving with a degree of arrogance, because not only did they succeed in making cameron look like the international statesman instead of the prime minister, they also allowed keir starmer to look like more of a statesman internationally than the prime minister. he was the one who met zelenskyy . he was at one who met zelenskyy. he was at omaha beach. >> no, you meant well . okay, so >> no, you meant well. okay, so you mentioned international matters and security and so on. and you mentioned keir starmer there. camilla, keir starmer is there. camilla, keir starmer is the man who twice fought tooth and nail for jeremy corbyn to be the prime minister of our country, a man who wants to aboush country, a man who wants to abolish the army, pull us out of nato and give up our unilateral nuclear deterrent. so i don't think we should take any suggestion that keir starmer is okay. >> then nigel farage looked nigel farage up, looked like more of an international statement then let's put it like that. didn't nigel farage cover himself a whole lot by self—funding his trip to normandy, which, by the way, he does every year , then rishi does every year, then rishi sunak, i mean, he's criticised the prime minister as not being

a patriot. he's right, isn't he . a patriot. he's right, isn't he. >> yeah. well, no, i really don't accept that. and i've given you reasons why i don't accept that. we have around the cabinet table our veterans minister, the prime minister cares very deeply about veterans. he is an absolute patriot. i've known him personally now quite well for a number of years . and he's number of years. and he's a patriot to his core, and that's why he will be feeling what has happened so deeply. i know he will, and that is why he didn't hesitate to step forward and apologise. he accepted that he made a mistake. he made a very pubuc made a mistake. he made a very public apology, a very clear apology. people often ask politicians to do these things and are often disappointed when they don't . rishi sunak sunak they don't. rishi sunak sunak stood up and apologised. and, you know, because he feels very , you know, because he feels very, very strongly about these m atters. matters. >> okay, mr stride, let's just move on to taxation. obviously, you've made this claim of the labour party adding £2,000 to household tax bills. fraser nelson of the spectator has crunched the numbers on the

conservative side, and he's calculated that under conservative spending plans, as it stands over the course of the next parliament, were you to win power again, you'd be adding £3,000 to people's tax bills. so isn't it just the case that whoever gets into power, labour or the conservatives, the taxpayer will be even more out of pocket ? of pocket? >> so the two figures are not comparable . the 3000 figure is comparable. the 3000 figure is the baked in fiscal forecasts going forward, and the implications they have for the tax burden. the 2000 figure are additional taxes that labour would need to find in order to fund the three £38.5 billion black hole that there is in their, revenue raises and spending commitments that we put forward. and that is something that we've analysed in a very transparent way. and that is the cost to working families up and down the country would be £2,000 across the next parliament.

>> but we're in the situation now where the electorate just has to bake in paying higher taxes for what are perceived to be poorer public services . be poorer public services. >> certainly under labour, that's true because they'll have well under the conservatives as well. surely black hole and. well, no, no. and under the conservatives taxes are beginning to come down. okay. so we've , we've cut national we've, we've cut national insurance by a third. we've given a tax cut to 29 million hard working people. that's worth £900 as a tax cut to the average earner. and that's happening right now in people's pay happening right now in people's pay packets . so the trajectory pay packets. so the trajectory of this government is for taxes to be reduced. now we've talked about pensioners. we're going to make sure they're kept out of income tax, whereas labour are going to tax millions of pensioners . we are not going to pensioners. we are not going to do that. so our direction is very clear. >> mel stride, thank you so much for joining us this morning. forjoining us this morning. lovely to speak to you . lovely to speak to you. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. in

>> thank you. in just >> thank you. in just a >> thank you. in just a minute i'm going to be joined by the pollster scarlett mccgwire, who will tell us who's up and who's down as we approach the midway point in the election

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. lovely to have your company this morning. now, appreciate that all the time. we're firing different polling figures at you, and it gets quite confusing . so i thought we'd get a pollster in to unpick it all. scarlett mccgwire is the director of jl partners. lovely to see you this morning, scarlett. do you know what i'm getting confused by? if i can be honest. okay, there's this mrp polling, which seems to be the most sort of cataclysmic for the tories. all of these suggestions that labour are going to have a supermajority , and the tories supermajority, and the tories are going to be left to like liberal democrat numbers 40 seats one. one poll has said this morning i think, and then some polling that your good selves have carried out, which

suggests that, well, at least last week before the d—day thing, that labour were only 12 points ahead of the conservatives so how do we work it all out? >> yeah, that's a great question . and that's something that pollsters are trying to figure out at the moment as well. so you're right, there are lots of different polls saying lots of different polls saying lots of different things. i think the first thing to say is that some things are consistent. so the things are consistent. so the things that are consistent are, without wanting to sound too obvious, as a big labour lead and a big labour lead, that will translate into a labour majority, i think most people now agree that looks like by far the most likely option on polling day. there are some other consistencies as well. so for example, reform i think are definitely on average and on most pollsters is on double figures. yeah. it wasn't if we look back to autumn last year, it was struggling to even hit 5. so we can see that reform have risen in the polls. and again, the lib dems everywhere seem to be low double digits as well. around 10, now there are some different things going on here. so if we take the first thing about different voting intention polls , voting intention polls polls, voting intention polls can have different methods. now

you're right, we had a poll out a couple of weeks ago that showed a labour 12 point lead. ours is actually now back to a sort of 17 or 18 point lead again. and that's before d—day. so we'll have another one coming out tomorrow. well, we we've told people on d—day, what are you expecting? >> yes . >> yes. >> yes. >> well i think yeah, exactly. without wanting to, to second guess what the data is going to say. yeah. we have seen some polls that have been in the field since at least since nigel farage announced he was going to stand in clacton and some since d—day. and most seem to show a rise in reform's vote, potentially a sign that will damage the conservative party. yeah, there's some speculation about whether that could hurt current labour voters as well, whether they might go, so that's one thing. and then on on the sort of final thing about mlps, that's a great question. so mlps, have in recent elections been considered to be the sort of gold standard of polling? there have been a couple of fantastically accurate ones. they involve doing modelling now using much bigger samples. so in a standard voting intention poll, we might ask 2000 people. i saw the latest yougov one last week. i think our 60,000. so they're asking huge amounts of

people , but then what they're people, but then what they're doing is they're getting all that information from around the country. they're working out different things about each constituency and the demographics in that constituency, as well as sort of building a lot of assumptions and very educated guesses about voters and how they might behave. so then they have that massive pool of data, then they can sort of info or use all their clever models to work out what then might happen in each constituency . the thing is, constituency. the thing is, those models are only as good as those models are only as good as those very educated guesses. now, as i saying, there are they are very educated guesses. but in an election where there are so many question marks, especially over things like turnout and about how many don't knows might return back to the conservative party, for example, that's when you start seeing some quite different seat projections. again, though, i think out of the most recent ones, we've had the best result for the conservative party, or at least i think the second best result still has their worst defeat in 100 years. so. so whichever way you look at it, it's going to be bad. not looking great. >> can we talk about the farage factor? he's made extraordinary gains for reform in the last

week since he announced his candidacy and leadership of the party, i mean, how well could reform do? he was sitting in that seat last week when i was covering the 7 to 8 hour, saying that they would overtake the tories . could they? tories. could they? >> i wouldn't rule it out at all in fact, if anything, i think it's at least as likely they do is they don't in 1 or 2 polls. we've already had a couple of polls last week that put them just two points behind the conservative party, so they're getting quite close. and i think it's the sort of thing that could really build up momentum at the moment. the conservatives best argument against the vote for reform is that it is buying, you know, it's a vote for the labour party because you're going to help whatever the second biggest party in that constituency is, get in, be it right or lib dems. >> are you seeing any evidence of labour people coming across to reform as well as tories, because this was something farage said as well last week. >> yeah, i think it's too early to say. i think the first thing you can say is that in terms of 2019, labour voters, i don't think there's much of a crossover now that makes sense. if you think about in 2019, it

was jeremy corbyn that was on the ballot for labour voters. so there's unlikely i'm sure you'll find the odd quite, you know, idiosyncratic voter that voted for jeremy corbyn now wants to vote for nigel farage. but there won't be great numbers of them. in terms of current labour voters. it might well be that they take some. we actually did a hypothetical poll just a few weeks ago saying, you know, how would you vote if nigel farage returned as the leader of the reform party and standing as an mp? and we found at that point that he was taking votes from current labour voters and current labour voters and current conservative voters. but overall, it's still overwhelmingly damaging the conservatives. and that's what will happen, because also, even if their old labour voters, these are the voters that will have switched to the tories in 2019 and therefore they are technically classed as tories, they're boris johnson supporting former labour voters. >> and therefore the vote comes from the tories and not from laboun from the tories and not from labour. if anyone's following that, i'm not even sure i am. let's also talk about, just this discrepancy. so, so explain this to us. and i know the first past the post system and proportional representation is slightly tncky representation is slightly tricky to analyse on a sunday morning when everyone's enjoying

their breakfast. but let's try, because we have a situation where we've got reform and the lib dems basically tracking each other and yet obviously the lib dems are up for maybe 40 seats. we might wake up on july the 5th and think, how has that happened? and yet, reform only predicted to win two, three, four. >> yeah, i mean, you're absolutely right that is how it works. so in our first past the post system, it's about who can come first in their particular constituency. the liberal democrats have a very, very, very efficient vote because it is not spread evenly around the country. so they are piling up votes in the constituencies that they are more likely to win. and they've been doing that for, for, for many, many years. and also the liberal democrats, i think this election, the common wisdom is they are going to actually could hurt them in some constituencies as well in terms of their overall vote share, but they will be assisted by getting mps by a drive for tactical voting to get the current government out . at least that's government out. at least that's what we're seeing signs of already. >> so you're saying that the vote share for reform goes up, but they don't necessarily win

the seat because they're not first. but then this is giving everybody reminders who can remember it of sort of 1983. and the sdp . we can we have the sdp. we can we have a situation then where reform , situation then where reform, obviously gets this extraordinary vote share. i'm just trying to analyse it from kind of a historic perspective. could some thing, you know, historical happen in political science that suddenly the tories i mean, when's the last time the tories have been pushed into third? >> well, that's a great point. we had in the 2019 european elections , the conservatives elections, the conservatives were pushed into fifth place. and that's partly what's triggered the last few years of this sort of drama that we've had in the conservative party it's certainly what triggered theresa may to resign. and they came behind nigel farage again, nigel farage's brexit party, so, i mean , you don't even have to i mean, you don't even have to go back as far to the 80s to look at a situation where, a party can get millions of votes and not result in many mps. party can get millions of votes and not result in many mps . ukip and not result in many mps. ukip got 3.5 million votes in 2015, they then sort of dropped off in 2017. but so yeah, it's not it's not unprecedented. and these

things do happen. however, what i would say is that even though then that doesn't translate to representation in parliament, but for those mps, it can still be hugely influential . and so it be hugely influential. and so it can still decide a direction of a political party. and there's lots of rumours about whether conservative mps, however many of them are left after the election, may be tempted to take in nigel farage if he does win clacton, so influence can be outsized compared to the mps, is what i would say. >> and also, before you go , can >> and also, before you go, can you just give us the latest in scotland, we've seen over the course of recent weeks and months, a sort of snp implosion that's going to be key critical to labour, because let's be honest , it's to labour, because let's be honest, it's going to be labour picking up those seats and not necessarily the tories or the lib dems. right. so what do we think might happen up, up north of the border? >> labour will be the main beneficiaries of what has been a very bad year for the snp. so ever since nicola sturgeon stood down, they've seen a sort of steady decline in the polls that got worse after humza yousaf's resignation, and we're now seeing consistently vie from different pollsters. sort of the biggest labour leads in scotland

since the 2014 independence referendum . that would be very referendum. that would be very significant for the election. it could be that labour pick up as many as 2030 seats in scotland. they're currently on two, but that could be make the difference. >> i mean, i don't think the polls are now suggesting sort of hung parliaments and no overall winner, but scotland could kind of be the kingmaker here. >> scotland could certainly really help keir starmer. and i think that's a great point because a few months ago, when or let's say this time last year when there was a bit more speculation about how this might all go, whether rishi sunak could be able to close the gap in the polls, an awful lot of attention on scotland, because that was felt like that held the definite key to number 10. now that we're looking at some of the seat projections that we talked about earlier, where you're looking at sort of conservative wipe outs, it seems to me that people aren't paying quite enough attention to scotland because they're sort of thinking, well, a labour majority is a given anyway. but it's fascinating, not just obviously for the voters in scotland, but for what happens down in westminster to still got more than half of this campaign to go, though, haven't we? >> i know scarlet, should we, should we seek help, look, you've been brilliant in explaining this because it is bamboozling all of these different numbers coming in and

sort of this idea of a tory apocalypse. so thank you very much for sorting that all out for us this morning. lovely to see you. coming up next, i'm going to address some of the issues we've just raised actually, because i'm going to be speaking to the chairman of reform uk, richard tice. i want to find out what he makes of jacob rees—mogg's suggestion that reform should do a deal with the tories. find out his

next. welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. i'm delighted to be joined now by the chairman of reform uk, richard tice. mr tice, lovely to see you. this morning. thank you. now, do you agree with leander sun, who said that rishi sunak missed the later d—day ceremony at omaha beach because his grandpa didn't fight in world war two?

>> who knows why rishi sunak missed those commemorations? frankly it was just a shocking decision for everybody and one can only speculate. i have no idea. i don't think anybody has an idea, but it was a catastrophic decision which, frankly, has shamed and embarrassed the nation , can we embarrassed the nation, can we talk about some of your candidates, mr tice? so i read today in the mail on sunday that somebody you had deselected has now been reselected. guy lachlan saint neots and mid cambs. is he back on the slate for reform ? back on the slate for reform? >> i'd have to check camilla. we've got 611 candidates. i don't know exactly . all of them don't know exactly. all of them on every single constituency . on every single constituency. but you know, our team have been looking at all of this. there's been all sorts of , allegations been all sorts of, allegations and out of context stuff put to put to us. so we'd have to check that. obviously we can come back

to you. >> well, let's. okay. let me just put it to you perhaps a different way. this is somebody who's liked a tweet for the far right britain first group against muslims. he's liked another tweet saying tommy robinson isn't entirely wrong. he's suggested that there are too many people on the planet. he said that humanity is bacteria. >> i'm going to stop you there , camilla. >> should he be a candidate? is my question. mr tice, i'm going to stop you there. >> the mail on sunday is running a vindictive campaign against us. a whole load of stuff gets put to us by journalists out of context, with no notice, some of which turns out to be completely and utterly wrong. if people have got allegations, they send them to us and we check it, but we're not going to respond to stuff live on it. i've literally been given misinformation by a very well known journalist on a different broadcasting channel, in order to try and trap us. so camilla, with the with the greatest of respect , i'm not greatest of respect, i'm not going to respond to something live on air without formal , you live on air without formal, you know, something formally sent to us that we can check .

us that we can check. >> sorry, i thought you might have seen it because it was in this morning's papers. i'm only picking him out because you had deselected him. >> that doesn't mean it's true. >> that doesn't mean it's true. >> no, but i'm saying that i'm picking this guy out. particularly. i'm not part of some conspiracy , mr tice. i'm some conspiracy, mr tice. i'm just a journalist. i'm picking this guy out because you deselected him. because you were so worried about his tweets, and now it seems as if he is the candidate for that seat. and that seems to be slightly contradictory. you've deselected him, and now you've reselected him, and now you've reselected him . him. >> we will check it out. i don't have 611 names on my, on on my on my mind. we'll check it out. a whole load of stuff the mail on sunday been printing is, frankly, ludicrous. gotcha. garbage. okay have you only got 611? >> then you're a bit short, you wanted to pick 630? >> yeah, we've got 611. we've got, nine candidates where we joint candidates with the sdp. and one of the reasons that actually we got a bit short, for

example, in this constituency of stone, we our candidates submitted their papers, and then something extraordinary happened. we've no idea what, but i have to say, it's very, very dodgy. he then withdrew them with a few minutes to spare and endorsed the conservative candidate. so frankly, some of the conservatives have been playing very, very dirty tricks trying to bribe our candidates, to step aside. and that's why we've lost a number of candidates at the last minute. and frankly, i think they need to explain themselves . to explain themselves. >> although it's not just the conservatives playing dirty tricks, is it? that's your candidate also playing dirty tricks. funnily enough, this was reported in the mail on sunday, so this story isn't garbage . so this story isn't garbage. >> so say that again . >> so say that again. >> so say that again. >> this story was reported in the mail on sunday. so this is one story about reform and having someone defect to the tories . that story, just to tories. that story, just to confirm, isn't garbage or indeed a stitch up . a stitch up. >> it was actually reported yesterday in other papers and the mail on sunday just picked it up. >> oh. they might not get it first, but at least they get it last.

>> well, yeah, and maybe sometimes the last one actually too. >> right. okay. so this guy's defected because he agrees with the rishi sunak premise that a vote for reform is a vote for laboun vote for reform is a vote for labour. it's not really a ringing endorsement, is it? of reform. >> he's he's done it because he's been promised something. i've no doubt whatsoever. >> we had other candidate have been promised. >> oh , we had another candidate >> oh, we had another candidate who was promised a safe council seat and two jobs by the conservatives. this sort of dirty tricks, it's one of the reasons why the tories are going to absolutely bomb in this election, because the british pubuc election, because the british public are sick and tired of their antics, their dirty tricks, and actually they want people to tell it as it is and come up with policies that are going to work for britain to make work, pay to get to zero waiting lists to freeze immigration. no one voted for mass immigration and to stop the lawlessness on our streets. and those are the policies that we're campaigning out, and we're getting a fantastic response on the street, on the streets. let me tell you, there are a lot of she was worried . she was worried. >> maybe he was worried, mr tice, that he was going to go to bed with nigel farage and wake

up with angela rayner . up with angela rayner. >> i think that's a vision that's a little bit too tricky for most people early in the morning. >> well, not really, it's that the idea that you vote for a form and unfortunately you wake up with labour, that's what your candidate has been worried about. that's why he's jumped ship. >> no, exactly the opposite. let me tell you what's really going on out there. everybody realises that labour are going to win this election, don't like it, but that's the reality. so now actually it's a free opportunity because if you vote tory, you're going to get labour anyway. so you might as well use that opportunity to punish the tories for the damage they've done to our country over the last 14 years, and actually a for vote reform is a vote for change. and that's why we're going up in the polls. the tories are sinking the polls. we're doing so well. we're going to win seats. we're going to get many millions of votes. i'm increasingly confident that we're going to get more votes cast than the conservative party and that's the big target. that's the opportunity. okay let's go through some of your policies then. >> how does net zero immigration

work when it comes to the health and social care sector? >> so our policy is to freeze immigration with the exception of, health and social care. okay. but basically about half a million people leave the uk every year. so you can welcome a similar number highly qualified, highly skilled above the average national wage, including a much lower number of students doing proper degrees. not ridiculous , proper degrees. not ridiculous, degrees that frankly, are pretty useless. and that's the way we should do it. >> and what other shortages though, like for instance, chefs, it's very difficult for people in hospitality to get chefs know camilla, the role of the british government and british businesses is to train up and develop and motivate young british people coming out of school and getting into work . of school and getting into work. >> that's how it used to work in the 1990s and 1980s, when we had almost no immigration whatsoever. and guess what? it worked rather well. we had higher. we had real wage growth. everybody felt better off, and

we didn't have huge pressure on housing rents , unaffordable housing rents, unaffordable housing, huge pressure on health care. so actually , by freezing care. so actually, by freezing the size of the population, everybody's quality of life will improve. and also wages will go up. people will feel a little better off. and i think that's a very good thing. and what most british citizens want, since nigel farage came in and took your job, nigel farage came in and took yourjob, he's dropped the your job, he's dropped the overseas detention plan for migrants. are you going to stick with your migrant tax on businesses? because when i last interviewed you , we had sir interviewed you, we had sir rocco forte on who's a leading hotelier. he employs a lot of foreigners. and he said it was a, quote, crazy idea . a, quote, crazy idea. >> and he's wrong. it's actually a very good idea. and of course, we're going to stick to it. we only announced it, i think, about 12 days ago. it's part of what i've just been referring to, which is motivating and enthusing. young british people coming out of school in order to get into the world of work and what's actually happened is for too long, businesses have been able to suppress and depress wages, not pay for training , and wages, not pay for training, and therefore, actually wages

haven't seen the sort of growth that we saw in the 1980s and 1990s when actually those sort of businesses, hospitality businesses, they were employing lots of english workers. and that's what we've got to do. that's the role and frankly, moral obligation of big business. and that's the that's the obligation of what the government should be doing . so government should be doing. so we've had a very good response to that from people up and down the country. we've got some exemptions for its small businesses. >> five people and less i know, but it's not going to affect it's not it's not the big businesses that are going to struggle to cope is it? it's the small and medium sized businesses that have over five employees. i mean, you're talking about businesses with under five employees. they're micro businesses. they're not small and medium sized businesses. >> literally for 150 years. this is how economics worked. if you can't afford the labour, you invest in capital equipment more to get more productivity to replace the labour. when all of a sudden we had mass immigration. in the last 20 years, we've had a productivity crisis, a capital investment crisis, a capital investment crisis, and we've had almost

zero real wage growth. in fact, i think for the last 15 years, real wages have declined a bit. so the proof's in the pudding. the mass immigration makes people poorer and worse off, and businesses have a role and responsible party to play their part in training up and developing and paying a proper wage for young british workers. and we do not resile one bit, not one iota from that. it's absolutely vital. >> okay, mr tice , finally, can >> okay, mr tice, finally, can you give us your top three policies that you hope will reform the nhs ? reform the n hs? >> reform the nhs? >> yes, i can. the first thing is we've got to retain and, we've got to retain and attract back recently departed staff , back recently departed staff, we've got to use the independent healthcare sector much more . the healthcare sector much more. the nhs has got to buy millions more appointments and operations. and thirdly , here's the thing. thirdly, here's the thing. actually, if you can afford to pay a actually, if you can afford to pay a bit more and of course, this would all still be at the free at the point of delivery. that's absolutely critical. i have no doubts about that. but if you can afford to pay a bit more, actually it would help the nhs free up pressure on the nhs.

if we encourage people to pay a bit more and buy their own health insurance or self pay by giving them tax relief, basic rate tax relief at 20, that would ease the pressure on the nhs, which means that there would be everybody would get faster, better outcomes and we set out in our contract how you pay set out in our contract how you pay for that. someone's got to have the ambition and we've got it to get to zero waiting lists in two years. most other nations don't have lots of waiting lists. and as nigel quite rightly said in the leaders debates, we've got to be brave enough to say other nations are doing it much better. still free at the point of delivery. i repeat, for those who sort of say we want to do other things, but we have to have reform the way we do health care in the united kingdom. >> will you charge for missed appointments, mr tice , that's appointments, mr tice, that's a detail that, to be honest, i haven't looked at. lots of people get excited about that. the bigger picture is , is the bigger picture is, is actually camilla that we've got to reform , the way we do health to reform, the way we do health care, we've got to be much more ambitious. use the independent sector much, much more. let that

grow. here's the thing . it's, by grow. here's the thing. it's, by the way, a conservative principle. competition is a good thing. it drives up standards, it drives down costs, and it increases capacity , which means increases capacity, which means we'll all be treated better, faster and have healthier outcomes. so that will improve the cancer diagnosis. >> okay. when's the manifesto out , we're >> okay. when's the manifesto out, we're looking at about, 8 to 9 days. it's a contract. it's not a manifesto. manifesto is full of broken promises. we don't believe in those . don't believe in those. >> okay. all right, mr tice, thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning. thank you. coming up next, i'm going to be speaking to nigel west, the military historian and author . i'm the military historian and author. i'm going to get him to reflect on the d—day bungle by the prime minister and also talk about britain's illustrious when it to espionage. stay tuned for that

welcome back to the camilla

tominey show. i'm delighted to be joined now by nigel west, the military historian and author who is here to discuss his new book. classified the adventures of a mole hunter. sounds very intriguing. it sounds as intriguing. it sounds as intriguing that title as the subject matter. what's the book about, nigel? >> it's the story of my life in 40 years on the fringes of the intelligence community, studying spies , catching double agents, spies, catching double agents, tracking spies around the world. and i've met about 14 or 15 double agents from the second world war. i've met all their case officers , and this has case officers, and this has resulted in quite a lot of books, mainly histories of the security and intelligence community. and it's been huge fun . and i thought that i would fun. and i thought that i would share some of the stories . yes, share some of the stories. yes, relating to the background, some of the great events in recent years in the spy world. >> what are the most common misconceptions of the spy world? because we know that the spy world gets a lot of sort of

treatment on celluloid, and we know about james bond and all the other films and depictions. i'd imagine it's not quite as it seems in the cinema. >> it isn't. but if you look at the spy world, people imagine that it's very dangerous. i think the truth is that a chartered accountant is more dangerous. occupation than a spy. during the second world war, the british secret intelligence service had three intelligence officers killed. one was walking down piccadilly and was killed in an air raid, and was killed in an air raid, and two were killed for their money belts that they were carrying in the balkans. so it's actually a quite a safe occupation , even for the agents. occupation, even for the agents. that's a different matter. and they're not the professionals and they're not the full time officers . officers. >> and how is the world of spying changed from from when you first became involved to now? because obviously the whole world has changed technologically. we've all gone digital . is technologically. we've all gone digital. is the art of spy technologically. we've all gone digital . is the art of spy craft digital. is the art of spy craft the same now as it was ? the same now as it was? >> it's the same as that. but the technology has changed.

there has been a pendulum that has swung in favour or against technological intelligence. the collection , the aerial collection, the aerial reconnaissance, interception of communications , all of that's communications, all of that's very sophisticated. but the truth is that when you recruit a spy, truth is that when you recruit a spy, you are persuading somebody to do something that they wouldn't otherwise normally do. yes, you're inviting them. you're persuading them to betray their friends, their family, their friends, their family, their tribe, their religion , their tribe, their religion, their tribe, their religion, their nationality, whatever it is. and that takes a lot of skill. so the case officers who are handling human intelligence, they are the people that i'm interested in. i'm interested in why people compromise classified information and regard it as a sort of overdraft that they can draw on if they're short of money. and that tends to happen. and because this is about human beings, the human dimension is all important. and it goes to the heart of loyalty , betrayal, the heart of loyalty, betrayal, trust. yes. and so on. >> i mean , i think about what

>> i mean, i think about what would be the common trait that ties some of the people that you've worked with and written about, on one hand, courage. i would imagine discretion , yes. would imagine discretion, yes. >> mildly manipulative as well. >> mildly manipulative as well. >> psychologically able people . >> psychologically able people. >> psychologically able people. >> jul sociopathic. yes, and big egos. and i found that with particularly agents and double agents, they've been itching to tell somebody. yes they want to be centre of attention. >> and yet they've lived this life in the shadows . that's life in the shadows. that's intriguing, isn't it? >> yes. one of the great spies that i met was a man codenamed garbo, who was very involved in the d—day landings and the deception campaign . and what was deception campaign. and what was very curious was that he agreed to talk to me on one condition, and that was that. i sat down with his two sons and told them what he had done in the second world war, because he knew that if he told them, they'd never believe him. and i found that

very curious. but we're in a golden age of intelligence because of the declassification of documents. we now have access to in a d—day context, of documents. we now have access to in a d—day context , the whole to in a d—day context, the whole of the deception campaign. yes. in the months before about that, because obviously the germans were under the impression that the invasion was going to start at calais. >> and of course it didn't. it started in normandy. >> well, military doctrine dictated that it should have been 23 miles across from dover to calais . i been 23 miles across from dover to calais. i mean, that's obvious. you'd have maximum amount of time for aircraft having cover over the combat zone. you'd be able to capture a port intact . all of the vital port intact. all of the vital things that were necessary. you'd be able to deliver 160,000 troops in good condition , in troops in good condition, in a short distance. the idea of going to normandy? yes. no ports, very long distance , a ports, very long distance, a huge gamble. and so it was persuading the germans something that they were really already inclined to believe , which was

inclined to believe, which was that the natural, obvious target area would be the pas de calais. and in september 1944, garbo was asked he was the double agent who had been promoting. this was asked by his german controller in madrid, they're still fighting , in france. why haven't fighting, in france. why haven't they landed in calais? and garbo's answer was, well, the normandy landings went much better, yes, than the military commanders believed . commanders believed. >> what was his motivation, do you think? what was his ultimate kind of driving ? kind of driving? >> he had a terrible experience dunng >> he had a terrible experience during the spanish civil war, and he volunteered his his services to the british. initially, they turned him down in spain. then he went straight to the germans and said , i'd to the germans and said, i'd like to work for mr hitler. yes. and pretty added that he'd got to england and that's how he became a double agent . to england and that's how he became a double agent. he only got as far as portugal and the studied fabricating information. >> i've got about a minute left . >> i've got about a minute left. nigel and i wanted to ask you

about sort of modern day spying. we've seen stories, haven't we, about chinese spies infiltrating parliament. lots, of course, about russian spies, not least in the aftermath of the ukrainian invasion. i mean, how real are the threats to particularly our democracy? when you look at the chinese spying scandal, i think in terms of the chinese, i think it's slightly exaggerated for a variety of political reasons. >> but people talk about the people liberating people's liberation army and the threat to taiwan in, you know, the pla have not actually fought a war successfully. they fought a limited degree in korea. they lost a war against the vietnamese as, the two the single, child policy means that the parents are going to be very reluctant to allow their children to go to war. so i don't personally believe that the pla poses the big threat that it's cracked up to be. but in terms of influence and

getting the media message across, all of that, i think is very sinister. >> might not need to spy that subtly when they've got tiktok. nigel west, thank you very much indeed for joining nigel west, thank you very much indeed forjoining me. this morning. well, that's me done for another day. i'll be back on monday , tomorrow at 7 pm. monday, tomorrow at 7 pm. because i'm hosting vote 2024. then i'll be back on this show next sunday at 930. as is ever the case, up next, ben leo is standing in for michael portillo. have a great rest of your weekend . your weekend. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. >> hello! here's your latest weather update from the met office for gb news. we'll see a mixed bag of weather across the uk today. some sunshine, some showery rain and temperatures remaining on the cool side for the time of year two. we've got some more persistent outbreaks of rain working their way in from northern ireland south eastwards across southeast

southwestern parts of scotland into parts of northern england, and eventually the north of wales. as we head into the afternoon today towards the north and northeast of that is brighter, but with a scattering of blustery showers , whereas of blustery showers, whereas across southern england, particularly down towards the south—west, plenty of sunshine , south—west, plenty of sunshine, just a gradual influx of cloud as we head through the day here towards the north and northeast, it stays chilly for the time of yeah it stays chilly for the time of year. temperatures no better than 12 to 14 celsius peaking though in the southeast at 20 celsius, 68 in fahrenheit. so towards the end of the day, we'll see a continuation of sunshine and showers across the north and northeast of scotland. still that chilly to north north westerly wind to contend with as well. then we run into that area of more persistent rain across northern ireland, into parts of southwest scotland , north—west southwest scotland, north—west england and north wales, whereas further south it's a brighter picture still to end the day. some cloud feeding in from the north, so the best of the sunshine reserved for the south—west of england and in the sunshine here, temperatures still into the high teens celsius heading through the evening into the overnight period. on sunday. there's outbreaks of rain across northern ireland and the southwest of scotland continues

southwest of scotland continues south eastwards to affect all parts of england and wales. as we head through the overnight period, notice some outbreaks of rain turning quite heavy in places too . whereas further places too. whereas further north across scotland and northern ireland we go into clearer skies with showers and turning quite chilly here. could even see a touch of frost by monday morning, and 1 or 2 sheltered spots as for monday itself, what outbreaks of rain gradually push away towards the south and east of england and wales, leaving brighter skies across the whole of the uk . across the whole of the uk. coupled though with quite a few showers, the showers most widespread towards the north and northwest, again accompanied by quite a brisk north to north westerly wind. and wherever you are, those temperatures struggle. still for the time of yean struggle. still for the time of year, no better than 12 or 13 celsius in a few places towards the north of the uk , up to 17 the north of the uk, up to 17 celsius at the very best, towards the south and southeast . towards the south and southeast. >> it looks like things are heating up . boxt boilers heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather

gb news. away.

>> very good morning to you. welcome to sunday with ben leo. today, stepping in for michael portillo for this week only. who as far as i understand, has been busy celebrating his birthday abroad very happy birthday to you, michael. if you're tuning in, i hope the next two hours of debate, culture and world affairs will keep you tapped on and tuned in right through to midday. we'll be getting the latest on some sad, breaking news this morning on the discovery of a body in the hunt for missing tv doctor michael mosley . in greece, a major mosley. in greece, a major operation was launched to find the doctor after he vanished while hiking alone in blistering 36 degree heat on the island of symi on wednesday. this morning, sadly, greek authorities announced they have found a body in a cave with the local mayor suggesting it is indeed doctor mosley, who they say fell some 30 foot off a cliff edge into

the sea. father of four michael,