>> way. >> way. >> good evening. the top stories from the gb newsroom. we start with some breaking news. israeli war cabinet minister benny gantz has resigned from benjamin netanyahu's government. gantz last month gave netanyahu an 8th of june deadline to present a clear day after plan for the conflict in gaza today, he said, leaving the government was a complex and painful decision. his resignation comes a day after four israeli hostages were rescued in an operation which the armed wing of hamas said has also killed three other hostages . a plan to force private schools to pay vat could lead to larger class sizes. that's according to the shadow attorney general. the policy is expected to raise £i.5 general. the policy is expected to raise £1.5 billion a year, according to estimates by the institute for fiscal studies. emily thornberry says it's necessary to ensure there's enough money to feed school children . children. >> what we need to do is we need

to raise the money in order to make sure that children going to state schools have had breakfast. that's what our priority is, and we need to raise the money from somewhere. and what we're going to do is we are saying everything we're going to spend money on. we're saying where the money is coming from because we have a properly we will have a properly costed manifesto and all our spending commitments will be, will be costed and we will be able to say where it comes from. and sure, you know, there may well be complaints about it. i understand that, but i'm afraid that if i have a choice between putting vat on private schools and making sure that the children in my area can have breakfast before they start learning, i know where i am . learning, i know where i am. >> conservative party chairman richard holden criticised the plan and says families and children will ultimately pay the price . price. >> emily thornberry today has a completely admitted that labour's approach to taxing schools is going to mean larger class sizes for children right across the country, particularly in the state sector. their children are going to be paying

the price for labour's ideological obsession with over £2,000 extra, on tax for their parents and larger class sizes for children. it's children and families who are going to pay the price under a labour government . government. >> in other news, a woman in her 40s remains in hospital with life threatening injuries after a ride malfunctioned at a funfair in south london last night. the lambeth country show in brockwell park reopened earlier today, but some rides remain cordoned off. lambeth council says an investigation is currently underway, which is being led by the met police and health and safety executives. a man in his 40s is also receiving treatment for potentially life changing injuries, while two others were also injured . former others were also injured. former scotland and liverpool defender alan hansen is seriously ill in hospital. the club is providing support to the family of the 68 year old, who retired in 1991 to start a successful career as a television pundit . start a successful career as a television pundit. in a statement, liverpool fc said its

thoughts are with their legendary former captain and they've requested the family's privacy be respected . michael privacy be respected. michael mosley's wife says she's devastated after his body was found on the greek island where they'd been on holiday together. doctor clare bayley mosley described her husband as wonderful, funny, kind and brilliant and she said the family takes comfort in the fact that he nearly made it to safety after an incredible climb. doctor mosley, who was 67, was with his wife and friends at a beach on the island of symi on wednesday before setting off alone for a walk. his body was found around mid—morning today beneath a fence that runs around a bar on aghia marina beach, which is surrounded by hilly, rocky terrain . in other news, rocky terrain. in other news, labouris rocky terrain. in other news, labour is pledging to alleviate some of the pressure on overcrowded prisons with a plan to add 14,000 new places. it would see some prisons classified as sites of national importance, so ministers can take control of planning

decisions. this comes after some inmates were released early due to severe overcrowding across the prison system. the government previously promised to deliver 20,000 new prison places by the mid 2020s, but just 6000 have been created so far. labour leader sir keir starmer says the problem is getting worse. >> i am critical of the tories early release scheme because what's happened is that they're releasing early prisoners who should still be in prison, and that's a shocking state of affairs and like the many problems that they have left for the country, if we do come into power, we're going to have to fix it. now, that will involve building prisons that will involve taking tough decisions because the money's been allocated for prison building. but there are tough decisions about planning and getting those prisons up. but what we can't have is a continuation of this total mess . total mess. >> and for the latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning that qr code on your screen. or you can go to gb news

common alerts. now it's over to free speech nation. >> rishi sunak makes a blunder book festivals are in trouble and kemi badenoch seeks to clarify the equality act. >> this is free speech. nation . >> this is free speech. nation. welcome to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. this is a show where we take a look at culture, current affairs and politics. and of course, we'll have the latest from those lovable culture warriors who've been telling us that the new star wars series on disney will be the gayest yet . well, we be the gayest yet. well, we always knew that r2—d2 was lgbt, but coming up on the show tonight, we're going to be joined by author helen pluckrose to discuss her new book on diversity, equity and inclusion and how it might not be living up to its purpose. i'll be speaking to chris easton, aka billboard. chris, who has become famous for protests against gender ideology by wearing a big sandwich board and talking to

people. and i'm going to be joined by deputy editor of spiked online, fraser myers, who's going to discuss rishi sunak less than perfect start to the election campaign, and of course, myself and my fantastic panel will be answering questions from our wonderful studio audience. and my comedian guests this evening are bruce devlin and cressida wetton. yes welcome both. >> a good week for you, bruce. yes what have you been up to.7 >> oh, i just busy fighting with taylor swift fans on the plane. >> really? yes. have you? uhhuh they could be quite aggressive from what i hear. >> well, they weren't, and there was two girls that filmed themselves as the plane landed, and i told them that really, they should think more of themselves. >> you see danny minogue fans? >> you see danny minogue fans? >> no, she wouldn't have done that. no, no dignity. >> no dignity. scum. >> no dignity. scum. >> where do you stand on the taylor versus danny debacle? >> i think he's joking. >> i think he's joking. >> that is how he speaks to people i know. >> i'm fully aware. i know how rude he is anyway. but behave tonight, bruce. >> oh, turn up on time. >> oh, turn up on time. >> i know wants me. all right. the audience at home, of course,

won't know what on earth you're talking about. no, i think they do know. okay, let's get some questions from this audience. the first question comes from paul the first question comes from paul. where's paul? hi, paul. hi. >> this potentially undermines the whole sort of rationale for the whole sort of rationale for the program. oh, wow. so good answers required. okay, but is the whole culture war a myth slash ? mr slash? mr >> okay. yeah. i mean, this is, if the culture war is a total myth, then you're right. what have we been doing for the past three years on this show, other than talking about stories that actually happen? but, you know, this debate has sparked off again because the former tory mp dehenna davison, who was elected back in 2019, she said and i think it was on newsnight, wasn't it, that the culture wars are mythical? actually we've got the clip. so let's have a look at the clip. >> the debate around trans issues right now seems to be used as some kind of political football for this mythical culture war that the conservative party seems to be fighting . i don't know why we're fighting. i don't know why we're fighting. i don't know why we're fighting it. i don't know who we're fighting specifically, and particularly in an election where most people's minds are on cost of living, pounding their

pocket, the state of public services. >> now, this was specifically about the kemi badenoch decision to clarify the equality act so that sex is explicitly protected. this is quite an important thing, cressida, because of course , it protects because of course, it protects women's rights to single—sex spaces. it protects gay rights. given that we've seen so many same sex attracted young people being medicalised for that reason. so actually, this stuff is not a myth. it's certainly not a myth for the people involved. what's going on? >> i don't know, i mean, what are they doing? >> inviting dehenna davison on the show? if she doesn't, i'm really surprised that that's her opinion. >> well, maybe she just hasn't read a newspaper for the past three years. >> she hasn't. which again, makes her an interesting choice for a guest, you know, doesn't it? she just seemed to have absolutely no idea what's going on. >> yeah, it's very strange, isn't it? because when people i mean, i don't mind people having their opinion on everything, but you would have thought with newsnight they would invite informed people onto the show. >> well, i know that when kirsty wark does the booking, she insists that people at least read a pamphlet. yes, absolutely. >> she's, she's very good like that. >> oh she is she, she's really

on it but it's very strange to just sort of dismiss this as myth. >> all of these things that are happening to people i don't, you know, i, you know, if you speak to the disabled individuals who are being called bigots because they want single sex care, i'm sure they don't feel like it's much of a myth. i'm sure the women who've been hounded out of their jobs for saying that sex is real, i'm sure they don't think it's much of a myth. i mean, what a bizarre choice to make at this time. >> you know, coming up to the election. it's quite a sense of time. yeah. and to be sort of throwing her own party under the bus, i think it's bizarre. yes. >> okay. very odd. okay, well, i'll be asking, helen joyce about that a bit later on, but let's get a question first from mike. do we have mike? hi, mike. hello, andrew. >> did rishi sunak let the country down when he left normandy early? >> yeah, this is an interesting one, mike. what do you think about that? do you have any views? i don't think i don't think he let the country down, but i think it showed a lack of judgement on his behalf. >> yes. and on his advisors. >> yes. and on his advisors. >> well, what was he thinking of? just avoiding that, you know, because it does it does feel strange because of course,

you know, that would alienate everyone. i can't think of a voting group left, right anywhere in between that wouldn't think that was a faux pas. so what else can you say about this? >> i mean, maybe to give him the benefit of the doubt? you know, he's just very busy. i mean, he is very busy. we all make mistakes. yes what's been really unfortunate is the debacle since the apology. and then we find out that actually the interview was booked in advance by his team. it was his team? yeah. channel. yeah and it wasn't even going out until after this. so there doesn't seem to be any reason for it. no. exactly. >> and he was it was an interview with itv news. i think. i mean, you go out of your way to avoid that. it's very it's very strange. i mean i don't and of course i think a lot of this has happened. bruce because of that picture, you know, the photograph of the world leaders, the german chancellor beau biden, and they had david cameron with macron. but david cameron, i mean, he hasn't been prime minister for ages. it's like we travel back in time. >> but people are saying on the bafis >> but people are saying on the basis of this, they think that rishi will resign and then we'll have cameron again. do you think as the leader of the conservatives, if not, well, you what? >> it better be quick. >> it better be quick. >> yes, yes, yes. it just it just goes to show that with

politics it's so easy to put a foot wrong. >> i mean, a gaffes are very easy. you can easily say the wrong thing at the wrong time. you can just make bad decisions, but they can really have, ramifications, can't they? and this is what this is up there, i think, with, gordon brown calling that woman a bigot. >> oh, definitely. >> oh, definitely. >> you know, but at least that was a hot mic. he didn't do it publicly, you know. >> who did he call a bigot? >> who did he call a bigot? >> some a his wife not. well, maybe. maybe he has. i don't know about their private life, but it was it was during a campaign he was to talking a woman called duffy. mrs. duffy. juua woman called duffy. mrs. duffy. julia duffy. >> julia duffy, the singer. >> julia duffy, the singer. >> gillian duffy, not duffy, the singer. no that would have been outrageous mercy. but he referred to gillian duffy as a bigot. even though she'd voted labour all her life. and she had some. >> you can still be a bigot and vote labour. >> you can. but she hadn't said anything bigoted. she'd asked some legitimate question about immigration rates, i think. >> so it was a long time ago. yeah, but i remember how much everyone enjoyed the soundbite and i think he has probably been enjoying this this week. >> you'd never want to be a politician, would you? you'd have to watch your every word and you'd be stuck. well, absolutely. >> i'd be in jail. >> i'd be in jail. >> yeah. you would.

>> yeah. you would. >> i'd be running the country for myself. but no. every day. yeah. >> and we know who's going to be doing that very soon anyway, let's my mum. your mum ? yeah, let's my mum. your mum? yeah, absolutely. let's move on. well, that means a question from luke. now, where's luke? >> luke. good evening guys, do you believe that book festivals have a future in the uk? >> so this is the baillie gifford thing. presumably and, you know, they've pulled out of a number of. well, they're just saying they're not doing it anymore, aren't they? so, luke, what do you think about that. because it was activists putting pressure on this big corporation. and as a result, we're just not going to have book festivals, are we? >> no, no, i think it's a shame because it's really, really important to have books and to have actual physical media of books. so i just think that, i mean, it needs sponsoring from somewhere and there are worse people that sponsor worse things. >> yeah. i mean , it's very i >> yeah. i mean, it's very i mean, it was also very tenuous, the sort of link between baillie gifford and these, these, these causes that or the omni causes , causes that or the omni causes, they're calling it whatever it's to do with israel or, or or climate change or, you know, they're just sort of lumping all together. absolutely absolutely. >> i mean, well done. nish kumar, i hope you're pleased about this. you know, well, it wasn't just nish kumar.

>> there were other charlotte church i think got involved. but various authors have been doing this. and you would have thought authors of all people recognise the need for corporate sponsorship for these events. i mean, i spoke to tiffany jenkins on the show about this last week and she was making the point that we don't want everything to be funded by the state, because then there are other conditions that come into that. and art generally doesn't flourish if the only people funding it are the only people funding it are the state, you know. >> no, i completely agree. i think and i think it could be the end , because once things get the end, because once things get this sensitive and you can't put a foot wrong, people just won't make the effort, will they? you don't want to get in trouble because you tried to run a book festival. >> and it's a and surely things like this book festivals, they're meant to be about diversity of viewpoints, you know, and the idea that some authors are saying, well, unless everyone unless everyone's sponsoring the event, unless everyone appearing at the event has my opinion, it shouldn't happen at all. >> it's a bit like that green. i don't know if she's an msp or a councillor named maggie chapman. yeah, she's a bit like beaker from the muppets with bifocals. she's nuts and she was saying, oh, it's a moral victory. it's an environmental victory for a book. i mean, for god's sake. you know, the temperature didn't

rise because someone fingered a mills and boon. no, let's be honest. this is ridiculous. what does greta think? that's what i want to know. >> well, i think we know what greta thinks. anyway, let's move on. now to another question. this one's coming from david. have we got david? hi, dave. thank you very much. >> good evening. and it's to do with this increasingly troubled world and asking this question as to whether north korea sending over balloons filled with rubbish in the direction of south korea when they've sent over pamphlets and leaflets into nonh over pamphlets and leaflets into north korea, is a sign of yet another step towards world war three. >> so do you. do you see this as an escalation, this balloon business? >> i don't see this as the major concern. i've got other concerns around the globe that points towards the fact that, yes, there's a shifting balance and a steps towards something that will eventually end in full armed conflict involving western i >> -- >> well, 5mm m barium 551mm >> well, this is it, isn't it, because it seems quite flippant and frivolous. the idea of

balloons, balloons full of rubbish and, you know, but it does escalate and tensions are clearly rising. and, you know, there's quite a few tensions rising throughout the world at the moment. we could do with things coming down a pace. >> can we? i agree, i don't think it's the major concern. i mean, north and south korea have been doing this for years. yes. and it's ongoing, isn't it? can we ever free north korea? yes probably not in our lifetime, i would say, which is tragic. yes but no, i mean, it's not good, is it? >> no, it's definitely not good. and there's all these things going on. there's the military drills around taiwan as well, from the chinese government. of course, there's ukraine and russia. so, you know, all of these things sort of escalating. i mean, it does a lot of people, a lot of doom mongers saying, you know, we're on the brink of world war iii. >> why did you look at me when you said doom monger? what what rubbish was in the balloons? the i had a similar thing, but it's to do with a neighbour who has a terrace that's a foot and a half below mine. no, honestly, there is a point to this. and she's a boot as well. and she was making a lot of noise. and i'd say to her, i said, look, you're going to have to stop that. and she went, oh, i'm a teacher at home, dance teacher. and i went, well,

that's a lie. so i got the police involved because, you know, i've a time on my hands and they came, couldn't find anything. i'd put a note down in hythe and she's accused me of throwing a black bag of rubbish. and when the police came down to my house, they said, you put this. and i said, well, what are the fingerprints? and i brought my rubbish bags through, which were white with scented lemons from m&s. well of course they were. there you go. this is the whole thing. you wouldn't like some dingy bin bag. no, i don't have time for denge. >> no, of course you don't. no. so is this escalating with your neighbour? are you going to start sending balloons? >> i've managed to get evicted because she was doing airbnb and hers was a rental. it's all true. and. yeah. no so she's away. don't cross me. but i would like to know what rubbish was in these balloons. interesting. >> i do see bruce's life as a microcosm of what's happening in nonh microcosm of what's happening in north korea at the moment. anyway, next on free speech nation, i'm going to be joined by author helen pluckrose, who's going to be talking about her new book, the counterweight handbook, which delves into the murky world of diversity, equity and inclusivity. please not go

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me. andrew doyle. so, diversity, equity and inclusion programs have the admirable goal of creating a welcoming environment for everyone . however, however, everyone. however, however, often they're intertwined with critical social justice ideology, which has no room for dissent and questioning things such as gender identity, ideology and can see you punished and cancelled for not toeing the line. helen pluckrose has written about this subject in her new book, the counterweight handbook , and i'm counterweight handbook, and i'm pleased to say that helen joins me now. welcome to the show . me now. welcome to the show. thank you. now, helen, your new book, counterweight handbook, you might have to explain what the metaphor of the counterweight is . it's based on counterweight is. it's based on an organisation that you, you had set up a number of years ago . could you tell us a bit about it? >> yeah, right. at the height of all the protests in 2020, people setting up diversity, equity and inclusion training in workplace sources, i started getting hundreds of emails a day. that's not an exaggeration. some of my colleagues were getting up to a

thousand of people who were suddenly in jobs that hadn't been hit by this before, but then were being asked to affirm things they didn't believe. so i set up a discord server, poured everybody into there . then my everybody into there. then my colleague carrie clark was sorting out resources for people, putting them into groups. we had a like an online forum, right? yeah, i had a triage clinic. so we helped about 100 people a month, 2 to 4 about 100 people a month, 2 to 4 a day active cases. >> we should probably clarify what i mean. the kind of things people were experiencing. it was things that they were being forced to state that all white people were racist or to undertake unconscious bias training or these kind of things. yeah, yeah. >> so i can give you some examples. we had a firefighter who was in trouble for saying that he wasn't going to stop and check what race or gender identity somebody had before rescuing them from a burning building. we had a young detransitioned woman who'd lost her breasts and fertility, and her breasts and fertility, and her work decided that her detransition meant that she should now have gender training

and affirm the beliefs. and she was. she was suffering from post traumatic stress disorder. we had a muslim scientist come from a north african country and put on his die statement that that he'd helped gay men, women and jews in his own country and he was delighted to be in a liberal country vie which shared his values, and that he hadn't been a victim of racism or islamophobia. and that was a problem . problem. >> it was a problem that he hadn't, he said. he hadn't been a victim of racism. >> yeah, he he was kind of that's to be seen as discrediting the experiences of other people. and he'd used that very dangerous word regardless as well. you mustn't ever say on as well. you mustn't ever say on a die statement, i will treat everybody fairly, regardless of their race, gender or sexuality. >> because of course, the premise of the ideology is that racism is omnipresent. it is buned racism is omnipresent. it is buried into the system . and buried into the system. and therefore, if you say you haven't experienced it as a muslim from abroad, all of a

sudden you're complicit in that system. is that right? yeah. >> you're you're not seeing it. you're you're denying it. you're invalidating other people's experiences. yes. you must also say that the uk, for example , is say that the uk, for example, is not better for gay people than iran or , i mean, i would say it was. >> yeah, but so this is the a lot of people weren't realising that this stuff was going on because of course, so many of the high profile cancellations were celebrities and that kind of thing. but actually the major problem was the people who weren't celebrities, who didn't have the resources to stand up for themselves. that's where you came in, wasn't it? yes. >> i mean, most of the cases, i mean, those are some of the ones that we really could have brought to public attention. but most of them really were people saying, i don't believe this. i don't want to pretend that i'm racist. i don't want to pretend that i believe in gender identity and but if i don't, i'm going to get fired. so that was why we had these groups. we were sort of had template letters that we were helping people to push back at things. there are ways that you definitely

shouldn't try to push back at things, ways that are more useful to do so. >> well, let's talk about that because of course, the instinct is to have a knee jerk reaction and say, this is outrageous, how dare you? and get into a big row. you were saying that there was a more diplomatic approach to this? >> well, a more, more strategic, i would say, because, yes, if you take take that example that you take take that example that you gave that all white people are racist. the instinct of a white person who isn't racist is to say, no, i'm not. and here's the evidence. here's some examples. but those are all theorised to exist , saying theorised to exist, saying things like, i have opposed racism. my husband is black. i don't think of people in terms of they're all theorised as symptoms of white fragility , symptoms of white fragility, which is the thing that gets in the way of recognising one's racism. so so what we've recommended people do is step back , do not make any of these back, do not make any of these claims, do not meet people where they are. instead i'd say i understand this belief, this this framework . i don't hold it. this framework. i don't hold it. i am a liberal and i believe that people can evaluate ideas for themselves. i am a

christian. i believe that we have god given free will. i am a conservative. i believe in personal responsibility to address these things . i'm a address these things. i'm a socialist. i believe that this, this, that class divisions are the bit, whatever it is. but coming at it from this point , coming at it from this point, just saying i do not share your belief. i hold these beliefs and i will oppose racism and sexism from those. >> so this gets to the nub of the problem is that one particular belief system , one particular belief system, one ideology, has been imposed on everyone else as the norm in the workplace. and it would be like, i suppose, everyone having to declare their faith in a particular god at the start of every day's work , but it's now every day's work, but it's now just die. >> yes, exactly. and quite a lot of people are saying, well, surely it's just being kind to everybody. it'sjust surely it's just being kind to everybody. it's just being fair. and no, there are so many ways that you can do that. and this is why it is often very useful to push an employer back to a point where they have to say, no, you cannot oppose racism from a liberal, humanist perspective . you have to oppose perspective. you have to oppose it from this one. then they are

directly challenging a respected philosophical belief or in the case of christianity, a respected religious belief. and then you actually have grounds to do something if you want to. but more often the because quite often employers , hr departments often employers, hr departments don't quite seem to realise what they are imposing on people. >> no, i think that's a big part of the problem . i mean, to give of the problem. i mean, to give a very specific example, obviously regent street at the moment is covered in the progress pride flag. corporations are flying that flag absolutely everywhere for an awful lot of gay people, that flag represents homophobia for an awful lot of women, it represents misogyny because that flag is flown by the ideologues who presided over one of the worst medical scandals in our history, which is which is predominantly affected young gay people. people don't understand that complexity . vie people that complexity. vie people don't see it as divisive. they just see that flag as we are kind to gay people when it's not that at all. >> no. and quite often a good thing to do with somebody who is really understanding critical social justice is a much more liberal thing than it is. and then they say something like, it's just about being fair, just about being kind is to show them

how problematic that sentence is . to say that to say woke is just about being kind is to entirely invalidate african american history, whitewash the situation, appropriate a movement , situation, appropriate a movement, and you would be cancelled for actually saying that. >> well, because the word woke comes from african american vernacular. >> a white person saying woke is just about being kind. it's just about being fair is extremely problematic. >> so your perspective is to come at it from the liberal perspective. and your argument is that what we call wokeness , is that what we call wokeness, or critical social justice, as you refer to it in the book, is not liberal. it's actually an anti liberal movement. a lot of people won't know what you mean by that. >> so within within liberalism, of course, we see people as individuals and we see them as, as part of our shared humanity. and we also see pluralism, people having different beliefs, different ideas, different backgrounds, different races, and who can come together and share experiences. and this is very productive for the advance of knowledge. but this is, the

way that critical social justice doesitisit way that critical social justice does it is it wants to take that thing in the middle, the plural part, the different groups remove the diversity of ideas, have the diversity of identity, then claim that because you are this race, you believe this, because you are this sexuality , because you are this sexuality, you believe this, this is women's experiences. and then regard those as the authentic voice of colour or the authentic voice of colour or the authentic voice of colour or the authentic voice of women and everybody else who doesn't believe that has either internalised the oppressive patriarchal or white supremacist narratives or they're trying to curry favour with the dominant group. >> so your book is partly explaining what the critical social justice or woke movement is actually about, as opposed to the misleading misrepresentations of people who say it's just about being kind. yeah. and then showing how if you are faced with the imposition of this ideology at the workplace, what can you practically do about it? because i think a lot of people go along with it because they're scared of being fired. >> yeah, we look at that and

there are so many different levels as well, because people think i either have to keep my head down or i have to throw myself on the grenade. and no, you don't. caring about being able to support and house your family is valid. so look at how secure your job is, how secure yourjob is, how important it is if you stay in your job. important it is if you stay in yourjob. we don't want all important it is if you stay in your job. we don't want all the teachers, therapists, medical practitioners to get fired at in university. we want them to actually get into the field. yes. so you can take a stealthy approach where you just keep your head down and you so that your head down and you so that you can live to fight another day, or a gentle approach where you just, you don't contribute to the preference falsification, you don't go along with it. so that everyone else in your workplace thinks that there's a consensus that supports these ideas, which statistics show very few people do . yes. and if very few people do. yes. and if you can step back from that, if you can step back from that, if you can step back from that, if you can say some more sort of general things about treating people as an individual, judging somebody as, as they are , then somebody as, as they are, then you can start to pull down that, that false impression that absolutely everybody is woke .

absolutely everybody is woke. >> and when people have followed your advice about this, you have had many successes and employers have, because a lot of the time they're imposing this without realising what it is they're imposing. they do, they are open to discussion, aren't they? >> some of them are open to discussion. they realise what it is that they're actually advocating. others have become nervous when they, they fight. they're sort of pushed back to to, saying, no, you have to believe this specific thing. you can't just oppose racism from your own values. yes. and and of course, in some countries, depending on on how it works, there are legal precedents, so they will know then that there could be a problem. yes. for this. so we advise to come from a place of knowledge. i know these this, this, these ideas. i don't share them come from a place of principle . these are place of principle. these are the values against racism, sexism that i do hold and then approach it strategically . approach it strategically. >> and once you've sounded out, i think this is very, very important because i've interviewed an awful lot of

people who've been cancelled, fired, demonised , teased by fired, demonised, teased by their employers. but you're if people get your book and follow your advice, they can pre—empt that. they can get in before any of that happens, can't they? >> this is what we find. yeah there's we have our traffic light system . so when it starts light system. so when it starts emerging you start by asking questions . here are some questions. here are some resources. you're going to do this unconscious bias training here are some some leading experts in the field who are saying why this doesn't work. and here are some approaches that do work. and really sort of in a cooperative way, you may need to get get firmer and say, this is an unacceptable denial of my freedom of belief and speech. but yes, that that negotiation , because there's a negotiation, because there's a lot of organisations working from the top down trying to reform things by law or institutional policy, and that's that's all very good. but what i felt we needed was a sort of bottom up grassroots movement. people all over in various different fields, understanding what the theories were about and being able to question and challenge them from a principled

standpoint. >> so the book is the counterweight handbook. it outlines all of these things that we've been talking about. it's out now, isn't it? >> it is. yes. it came out last week and the audio book's out in a couple of days. >> a fantastic. are you narrating the audiobook? >> i am brilliant, there we go. >> i am brilliant, there we go. >> well, helen pluckrose, congratulations on the book. it's absolutely fantastic. and i hope people buy it. and, it's very, very helpful indeed. helen pluckrose everyone. and next on free speech nation, i'm going to be joined by the director of sex matters, helen joyce , to discuss matters, helen joyce, to discuss kemi badenoch shake up of the equality act. please don't go

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation . so later in the show, nation. so later in the show, i'm going to be turning agony uncle. with the help of my beautiful panel, bruce and cressida, we're going to help you to deal with all of your unfilled dilemmas. that sound

you heard was bruce snorting with delight at the prospect. please do message us with all of your problems @gbnews .com, your say and we'll help you deal with your issues. now, transgender athletes may have to compete with their biological sex under tory's proposed shake up of the equality act, according to kemi badenoch. now to discuss this, i'm pleased to say we're joined by author and director of sex matters , helen joyce. helen, matters, helen joyce. helen, thank you for coming on the show. now kemi badenoch is seeking to clarify the details of the equality act. can you explain to people what precisely it is that kemi badenoch is proposing here? >> sure. so the equality act is a wrap up of over 100 different laws and pieces of precedent setting court cases, and it includes all the anti—discrimination laws. basically, in one big portmanteau. and there are nine protected characteristics of which one is sex and that roles in the sex discrimination act, which is nearly 50 years old.

this year, and of course, at the time, what people meant by sex was sex, male and female. but in between that and the 2010 equality act, the gender recognition act was passed. and that gave some people the right to go through a medicalized, supervised process and get a birth cert at the end of it. that said, the falsified sex for some legal purposes, and it just isn't clear whether the equality act is one of those legal purposes or not. in other words, whether when you're doing anti—discrimination law and equality law, you have to count a man with a piece of paper from the government saying he's a woman as a woman and vice versa. or do you count them as their actual sex? and this is definitely a muddle. and it's come to court several times in various ways in the intervening years, and it's actually heading to the supreme court later this yearin to the supreme court later this year in a big case taken by a grassroots group in scotland called for women scotland. so there's no question that it is a muddle. and what she said she would do is she would clarify it and she would if the if the tories are re—elected, they would pass a very short law that

would pass a very short law that would say we really mean sex. so i think she fancied up, in legal words . words. >> i think most people will understand that the grc creates a kind of legal fiction, but what it doesn't do is literally turn a man into a woman or vice versa. and i think most people will have assumed that the word sex in the equality act clearly means biologically sex. but why is it that so many people are confused about that ? confused about that? >> i mean, lawyers are confused because lawyers seem to think that words make reality and the gender recognition act has this line in it that says, for all purposes . and now obviously they purposes. and now obviously they mean for all legal purposes. and that's been clarified since. but lawyers seem to think that really there was some way in which a piece of paper could change sex. i don't mean all lawyers. i mean they're not very sensible ones. but on top of that, there's just been a really concerted lobbying effort to suggest that when people get a piece of paper saying that their sex has changed their sex actually has changed. and beyond that, to say that when people just claim their sex has changed, it actually has. so if you listen to the trans lobby,

they'll tell you that it's just mere gender self—identification that changes people's sex. but as soon as a man just says in some magical act of transubstantiation, i am a woman now , he must count as a woman, now, he must count as a woman, and that those of us who think otherwise are bigoted. >> and so perhaps you can explain why this matters so much . why is it the case that we need this clarification ? need this clarification? >> well, unclear law is bad law, and this is the law that not only governs all anti—discrimination and equality law, but it also is the law that has some exceptions written into it. for when you are allowed to discriminate. because, for example, schools can discriminate on the basis of age they couldn't operate otherwise. and there's very ordinary sex discrimination that happens all the time around us whenever you have a single sex service. so every time you put up the male and female signs outside toilets, you're committing sex discrimination. but it's lawful sex discrimination because it's needed. sex discrimination because it's needed . it's just a part of needed. it's just a part of operating an ordinary life. and if you aren't able to say accurately what sex means, then

it's not clear when you can do that sort of lawful and ordinary sex discrimination, either. and you need to do it if you want to have a single sex service, not just toilets and changing rooms, but also rape crisis centres, domestic violence shelters sport has actually dealt with through a different mechanism within the equality act, but also single sex sports. and all of these things matter very much for women. and in the last few years, anyone trying to run these things, which has been, you know, very ordinary things for everybody to have for a long time have become afraid they're going to get sued. they're going to get sued by some man who wants to go into the ladies , and wants to go into the ladies, and they don't know what to do. they don't understand the law. it's complex. they've been misinformed by the lobbyists and basically you just need to go back to clearly saying, when we say sex, we mean sex. it is lawful to run single sex services. and by the way, this doesn't mean discriminating against trans people. there's a separate protected characteristic called gender reassignment means you're not allowed to harass them or discriminate against them at work or and the provision of services. it just isn't magic. it doesn't turn men into women.

>> now you're talking about single—sex spaces, such as changing rooms and rape crisis centres. even this is obviously the stakes are very, very high. so why is it that the former tory mp dehenna davison appeared on newsnight to say that this was just a manufactured culture war by the tories? why is it that alastair campbell is tweeting out saying that none of this really matters ? this really matters? >> i mean, you can tell a lot by people when they say what doesn't matter and what's fringe and what's a distraction in politics, it always means that something else is centred and something else is centred and something else is important. and it doesn't take very long to think that women can't live safely and comfortably in public life if there aren't reliable single sex services . and it single sex services. and it doesn't take very long to think that women who are in dire situations , trans women who need situations, trans women who need rape crisis centres, or god forbid, women who've had to go to jail need single sex provision. so somebody who says that that's not important or a distraction, i want to ask them, what do you think is important and what do you think is a

distraction from. because all i can think of is that you think that men are important or that not listening to women is important, or that women's voices are a distraction . i voices are a distraction. i don't think very well of anyone who just brushes away these issues to do with vulnerable women , the neediest women, the women, the neediest women, the women, the neediest women, the women who can't just buy their way out of difficult situations like middle class women can, and professional women can and just just writes it off as a distraction . distraction. >> i suppose all i can think is that they're misinterpreting the situation and they think that what kemi badenoch is asking for is some kind of a kerbing of the rights of trans identified individuals , as you really have individuals, as you really have to try in a very motivated way, to try in a very motivated way, to hear what she said as meaning that. >> but i agree with you. i think there are people who are that motivated. what you're watching is the end result of a very long and very, very determined disinformation campaign. people who say that as soon as you say something like, look male and female are really fixed categories and they are

meaningful, they think you mean women must stay in the home or women must stay in the home or women must stay in the home or women must be feminine , or all women must be feminine, or all men are rapists. these are the things i hear all the time. i mean, i sometimes feel that when i'm moving and i'm speaking, my lips are moving and the words are coming out. but people are heanng are coming out. but people are hearing something completely different. it's gone through some weird garbling machine and out the other end is spewing nonsense. but yeah, i think it has to be that. that there's just been an awful lot of lies told by lobbyists for quite a long time. >> but thankfully all of the arguments that you've made are very, very clearly outlined. firstly, in your brilliant book, trans when ideology meets reality, but also on the sex matters website at all of the details are there, aren't there? >> yeah . i mean, politicians are >> yeah. i mean, politicians are busy people and they do unfortunately still think that the organisations that used to do such good work for gay rights, like stonewall, are still reliable . so, you know, still reliable. so, you know, they're always trying to find out in three minutes or less what to say about some issue. and you know, stonewall tells you that this is a dog whistle, that it's coded attack on trans people, that it's the, you know,

gay rights 2.0 is what it is to have gender, self id and that those of us who oppose it are like, you know, the section 28 lot or something, and then you're on to the next topic. lot or something, and then you're on to the next topic . so you're on to the next topic. so yeah, politicians can really easily fall for the fact that these organisations were once very reliable and now they aren't. >> and can i finally ask you, helen, in the wake of the cass review, a lot of people have had their eyes opened as to the extent of the problem here and why the recognition of biological sex is so important for basic human rights, but it hasn't necessarily caught on in countries like canada . it's countries like canada. it's struggling over there in america. do you think that there will be a sea change that has originated here in the uk? >> yeah, we're definitely ahead of the rest of the world on this. but of course, in some places we're still going backwards. i mean, we're seeing moves in wales and scotland, for example, and really in the opposite direction, and it just takes an awfully long time like this. this has been 30 years and more in the making. this

particular bit of nonsense. and i'm afraid it could take really a long time to fight it back again. yes. okay, we're leading, but we're you know, our gains are not enormous compared with the amount of capture there's been. and there's an awful lot more work to do. and in the meantime, stuff is coming in from the european union. it's coming in from the us via multinational companies and the like. yeah. i mean , i think sea like. yeah. i mean, i think sea change is too optimistic, i'm afraid. i think we could be doing this really until retirement. yourself and myself. andrew are well on that optimistic note, helen joyce, thanks so much forjoining me. >> sorry . and next up on free >> sorry. and next up on free speech nation, chris easton , the speech nation, chris easton, the man who quietly protests gender identity ideology while wearing a sandwich board. he's going to be joining me here in the studio. please go go anywhere.

>> on mark dolan tonight. in a take at ten special, i'll be

paying take at ten special, i'll be paying tribute to the tv doctor. michael mosley and explain how his incredibly simple and effective method has helped millions of people to lose weight and reverse their diabetes. don't miss it. it may just save your life. plus, tomorrow's papers and widdicombe royal expert angela levin and my top pundits. we're live at nine. >> welcome back to free speech nation. chris easton, aka billboard chris has been protesting against gender ideology for a few years now . he ideology for a few years now. he often goes to protests and college campuses wearing a sandwich board with gender critical statements on it. he's always peaceful. he's always polite, but he has had a rough time and some near misses at certain protests. well, anyway, i'm pleased to say that billboard chris joins us in the studio. welcome to the show. >> thank you so much. thanks for coming in. >> now, some people might not have seen you before. you've been on this show before. you have had a few scraps, haven't you? when you've stood there

peacefully protesting, trying to have conversations, you've i've seen you you've never initiated any, any, any kind of violence or anything like that, but you have been on the receiving end of it. is that right? >> yeah. that's right. and everything is recorded. so it's all on video, but i don't even consider myself a protester. i wear these signs to solicit conversations with people and to raise awareness. but i've had my arm broken. i've been attacked. probably three dozen times, perhaps. >> what have you said on the sandwich board that has caused people to want to break your arm ? >> 7- >> two 7— >> two main 7 >> two main messages children cannot consent to puberty blockers . and my definition of blockers. and my definition of a dad, which is a human male who protects his kids from gender ideology. >> so that sounds fairly practical to me and not really all that controversial. and i think also , even if i did find think also, even if i did find it controversial, i wouldn't want to break your arm over it. i maybe want to have an argument or a discussion. right? >> yeah. well, that was by antifa at 7:00 at night in montreal. i got attacked by about seven people on the street. >> so antifa, that stands for anti—fascist, that's the group that uses fascistic, tactics, but calls themselves anti —fascist. but calls themselves anti—fascist. so that's okay, okay. well, let's talk about what's been happening recently because you've been touring, you go all over the to world try and

protest these situations. something's happened recently, though, in australia. what's going on there? >> yes. so i criticised the appointment of a woman named teddy cook. she was appointed to a panel of 20 so—called experts on the world health organisation to draft health care policy for children and adults who are struggling with trans identification. now, teddy cook is a woman who was written about in the daily mail, and it was this article that i quoted where she promoted bestiality, bondage, drugs . and i don't bondage, drugs. and i don't think this is someone who should be writing policy for children . be writing policy for children. >> so you criticised her. but the real problem was that you misgendered. >> that's right. so in australia they have an office in the government called the esafety commissioner. and her job, this is an american woman named julia grant. herjob is to control what australians can say and see on the internet. and she ordered my post taken down. so it's been geo blocked in australia. the rest of the world can still see it, but i filed an appeal. ex also filed an appeal to defend my post. so now i'm working together with x's lawyers to us . together with x's lawyers to us. >> the australian government has told elon musk that he has to be

subject to their censorship laws. is that right? >> that's right. they they were told that if they didn't take down my post, they could get a $782,000 fine. >> wow. okay and my understanding is that also the australian government was suggesting that this had to 6my suggesting that this had to apply worldwide. you know, that they were trying to impose ideas across the globe, but luckily so. so you and elon musk are now sort of buddies working up on this, is that right? >> yeah, i hope so. >> yeah, i hope so. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> so are things getting better or worse because we've had the cass review in the uk. but when we see stuff that's going on in canada and america, we think this isn't going well. >> i'm an optimist. so i think things are going spectacularly. there are now 25 states in the united states which have legislated a stop to this. of course, they're all republican states. the democrat states keep doubung states. the democrat states keep doubling down. but even in canada, we're seeing some progress. the premier of saskatchewan and the premier of nova scotia are trying to get gender identity ideology out of schools. and in alberta, the premier wants to ban puberty blockers for under 16. so that's a start . and we had protestors, a start. and we had protestors, probably 30,000 protesters last september all across canada protesting gender ideology in

schools. so the people are waking up. >> does it frustrate you that this is so interpreted as a left versus right issue ? versus right issue? >> yeah, it shouldn't be. i mean, this is primarily pushed by the far left . now, that's not by the far left. now, that's not all of the left. and when i'm out on the street, i get support from 90% of people. and that includes people from all over the political spectrum. but at the political spectrum. but at the political spectrum. but at the political level, it's different because politically , different because politically, if you look at the green party, for example, they're all pushing this. the democrats are all pushing this, but they're not representing their constituents. so we just need to keep creating awareness at the street level with people. and we need to bury these politicians under an avalanche of truth so they can't ignore it anymore. well i think that's a really important thing. >> and of course, the cass review has shown them why this is such a problem, why so many of the kids are same sex orientated or suffering from autism or other co—morbidities. so will they finally wake up? have they just not read the evidence on this? absolutely they haven't. >> and the cass review is so valuable because it gives a shield for these politicians to say, well, look, we're not trying to be a bigot here. if the left try to accuse them of being a bigot, look at this report, this 388 page report done over three and a half

years, shows that this isn't helping children psychologically , so it's not helping them psychologically. why are we harming them physically ? harming them physically? >> billboard chris, thanks ever so much forjoining us today. so much for joining us today. really appreciate it . so that's really appreciate it. so that's the end of the first hour on free speech nation. but please don't go away. there's a lot more to come between now and 9:00. see you in a bit. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. >> good evening. welcome to your latest gb news weather from the met office. so plenty of rain around for many of us overnight tonight, but there will be some dner tonight, but there will be some drier and brighter interludes to start on monday. this frontal system sinks its way south and eastwards overnight sunday and into the start of monday, but high pressure is never too far away. out towards the southwest. those frontal systems bring areas of rain that have affected northern ireland today. across parts of wales, central and northern parts of england through the early hours of monday morning. generally

turning drier across northern ireland and parts of scotland, where it's likely to turn chilly under those clear spells. perhaps a touch of grass frost in places but a much milder start across much of england and wales, and quite a damp start too, as that area of rain slowly pushes its way south and eastwards through the morning. for scotland, though , despite a for scotland, though, despite a chilly start, there will be plenty of sunny spells through the morning across the very far north. plenty of showers, though, pushing their way southwards as we go towards the afternoon. but for southern parts of scotland, northern ireland, even northwestern parts of england, plenty of sunny spells to start the day. wales will also see some sunshine through the morning, but for much of england it's generally a cloudier start to the day and that heavy rain could cause some disruption during the morning rush hour . that disruption during the morning rush hour. that rain disruption during the morning rush hour . that rain continues rush hour. that rain continues to push its way eastwards as we go through the rest of monday morning and in towards the afternoon, but closely followed by plenty of heavy showers pushing their way southwards , pushing their way southwards, these perhaps turning quite persistent across parts of scotland. and they could be quite heavy in places. the best of the sunshine across parts of wales and southwest england. but temperatures still disappointing

for the time of year. only 18 or 19 degrees in the south and around 10 to 12 degrees further north. tuesday generally starts a little bit drier, though there will still be plenty of showers around, particularly across parts of scotland and along eastern coast as well, and generally a bit of a cloudier day, particularly as we head towards the afternoon . the towards the afternoon. the showers, perhaps not quite as heavy in eastern parts of england as they're going to be on monday, but still some showers around on wednesday as well . there is further outbreaks well. there is further outbreaks of rain likely on the way through wednesday, and thursday, but temperatures slowly on the rise that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers sperm . from boxt boilers sperm. >> answers of weather on

gb news. >> there's plenty more still to come on. free speech nation this week. but let's get a news update first from tatiana sanchez.

>> andrew. thank you. the top stories this hour. a plan to force private schools to pay vat could lead to larger class sizes, according to the shadow attorney general, the policy is expected to raise £1.5 billion a yeah expected to raise £1.5 billion a year. that's according to estimates by the institute for fiscal studies. emily thornberry says it's necessary to ensure there's enough to money feed schoolchildren. >> what we need to do is we need to raise the money in order to make sure that children going to state schools have had breakfast. that's what our priority is , and we need to priority is, and we need to raise the money from somewhere and what we're going to do is we are saying everything we're going to spend money on. we're saying where the money is coming from because we have a properly we will have a properly costed manifesto and all our spending commitments will be, will be costed and we will be able to say where it comes from. and sure, you know, there may well be complaints about it. i understand that, but i'm afraid that if i have a choice between putting vat on private schools and making sure that the

children in my area can have breakfast before they start learning, i know where i am . learning, i know where i am. >> conservative party chairman richard holden criticised that plan and says families and children will pay the price . children will pay the price. >> emily thornberry today has a completely admitted that labour's approach to taxing schools is going to mean a larger class. sizes for children right across the country, particularly in the state sector . the children are going to be paying . the children are going to be paying the price for labour's ideological obsession with over £2,000 extra on tax for their parents and larger class sizes for children. it's children and families who are going to pay the price under a labour government. >> international news now israeli war cabinet minister benny gantz has resigned from benjamin netanyahu's government. last month, mr gantz set out a deadune last month, mr gantz set out a deadline for the 8th of june for mr netanyahu to lay out how israel would achieve its six strategic goals, including the end of hamas rule in gaza. well,

today, he said , leaving the today, he said, leaving the government was a complex and painful decision . netanyahu has painful decision. netanyahu has posted on ecs, saying this is not the time to quit the campaign. this is the time to join forces . mr gantz join forces. mr gantz resignation comes a day after four israeli hostages were rescued in an operation which the armed wing of hamas said has also killed three others. and michael mosely's wife says she is devastated after his body was found on the greek island where they'd been on holiday together. doctor clare bailey moseley described her husband as wonderful, funny, kind and brilliant and said the family takes comfort in the fact that he nearly made it to safety after an incredible climb. doctor moseley, who was 67 years old, was with his wife and friends at a beach on the island of symi on wednesday before setting off a loan for a walk. his body was found around mid—morning today beneath a fence that runs around a bar on aghia marina beach , which is aghia marina beach, which is surrounded by hilly, rocky terrain . for the latest stories ,

terrain. for the latest stories, you can sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. common alerts. now it's back to . andrew. >> welcome back to free speech nafion >> welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. we've got a wonderful studio audience here. so let's get some more questions. we've got a question here from glenn. where is glenn? hello. over here. hello, should we be tougher on activists who attack works of art ? art? >> yes. >> yes. >> now, bruce, straight in there. glenn, what do you think about this? because i know you're referring to this. this week, there was an attack on a monet, piece by a climate activist. they do tend to go after works of art. what do you feel about it? treat them like football hooligans. just. they're breaking the law. and that should be breaking the law. >> shove them in jail. >> shove them in jail. >> wow. okay, well, bruce, i

know that well, from your declaration. well, they've got a round of applause. isn't it weird that when these people break in, throw paint, or in this case, soup? well, it was soup, but this time it's actually, glued something onto a monet. actually damaging because there was no glass. there was no protective glass. no, i know so should we. why aren't they just being dragged away immediately by police? i don't understand it exactly. >> i remember watching some footage and it was a climate protesters on the road in spain, and the spanish police just didn't give two hoots. and they glued themselves to the gate and they ripped up their hands. and i was applauding at home thinking, i wish someone would throw salt into their hands and then cut them off and leave them to bleed in a cell. but no, seriously. and you'll notice that the weather has got warmer because they're not throwing soup. yes, that's the thing as well. but no, i would throw tins of soup at them. i would erase that. i hate them, honestly. set fire to them . fire to them. >> i mean, that's the hard line approach. do you want to give some balance? >> no idea. you felt that way. >> no idea. you felt that way. >> well, i'm a pale imitation of bruce. >> i'm not sure about the bleeding in a cell. bruce. oh,

the fire. >> i think we could do without the fire. but yeah, just for balance. >> just. just for balance. >> just. just for balance. >> yeah, but that's an effect of detent. yeah. you would only have to set one on fire. and i tell you that's dying now. >> so the thing about this is what i don't understand is they're clearly breaking the law. but more than that, these are some of the most important works of art ever created by humankind. they are the height of human achievement. there's something quite anti—humanity about this movement . they seem about this movement. they seem to think these things don't matter. they matter a hell of a lot more than they do well. >> and i think that's like a sort of freudian slip, isn't it? telling you about their movement, is it? i think is kind of anti—humanity. yeah and of course it's so arrogant, isn't it, to think that you're so important and your cause is so important and your cause is so important and you get to decide for everybody else that we don't have money anymore. yeah. >> well, this is the other thing. i mean, why do they think they're doing any good? because every time this happens, from what i can see, yes, there's a lot of discussion. they say, well, we're drawing attention to it, but everyone hates them more and more, and they certainly don't persuade anyone. >> no, but that's the thing, like, all joking aside, and i stand by my point. however, my point would be that they are

discrediting their movement by virtue of the behaviour. and over and above that, have they got a deal with a glue company because they've always got glue on them. >> they've always got glue. >> they've always got glue. >> yeah, they have got glue. yeah. >> very good point. well we should look into that. that's interesting. okay. we're going to move on now to a question from rosemary. do we have rosemary. yes. >> hi. hello. i was wondering why support for gay marriage has fallen in the united states. yeah this was very interesting. >> this was a new poll from ipsos. it found that support for same sex marriage among americans has fallen to just 51. that's a significant drop , i've that's a significant drop, i've got some thoughts on this, i wonder whether this is partly to do with the fact that we're seeing, well, a lot of bizarre, excessive behaviour from a community that is branded as lgbtq, including drag queens twerking in front of three year olds, really sexualised books going into school. but none of this has got anything to do with gay people. this is not, this is not, this is to do with this fringe kind of extreme activist group. but i think thanks to that myth that there is such a thing as an lgbtqia+ community,

they're banning everyone together. yeah, exactly. >> i think that's exactly what it is. and so, lesbian, gay and bisexual people are potentially being denied the right to marriage because as it's sort of a protest vote from people who've just had enough of activism, i think. >> yeah. i mean, it's a weird one, isn't it? i mean, what do you think the reason is, why are people i genuinely have no idea. >> i think there's maybe some of that. rosemary, are you from america? i am, you are. i noficed america? i am, you are. i noticed your chanel bag earlier. that's what i liked. you, why do you think ? yeah. you think? yeah. >> rosemary, what do you think? have you got the mic? just >> there's. >> there's. >> i'd be interested to see what you think from an american perspective. >> well, there's so much controversy between the political, you know, back and forth from the right to the left. and i think that they're just, you know, beating it up and like you said , the what was and like you said, the what was originally it was mandated for , originally it was mandated for, for people to, to be married that's gotten too far off and too crazy. >> is it the case as well, that maybe the american right is becoming more reactionary? >> yes. >> yes.

>> yeah . i mean, that's >> yeah. i mean, that's something that i would fear. >> like you just mentioned, the far left and the far right or neither one of them are making any sense . yeah, exactly. any sense. yeah, exactly. >> well, maybe it is that. i mean, that's the thing. is that within with all this cultural stuff, it does feel as though there are more extremes now on both sides. and that's not good, is it? >> no. absolutely not. it feels like things are getting better and better. there's an increased tolerance and it's kind of peaked. and now it's going down again. yeah. >> okay. stop twerking in front of kids would be my advice. okay, let's move on now to a question from navalny . question from navalny. >> hi. hi. i'm just wondering what you think about in america. should donald trump ever got put behind bars, do you think what's going to happen in america that's very interesting because, i mean, he said, there are intimations this week that he's really going to slam the judge when he if he becomes , when he if he becomes, president, which is possible. >> you know, i hadn't realised, but you can be president even if you're in prison. yeah, right. so what do you think about this nabina do you think, what do you

think will happen? >> i think there'll be huge bloodshed in america. >> they've got a lot of crazy people there , i think he would people there, i think he would thoroughly deserve it. >> interesting . >> interesting. >> interesting. >> let's get the mic back to rosemary, though, because i do want to ask an american perspective. can i just quickly ask you, do you do you think that, people that they could lead to some civil unrest? >> i hope not, i hope not, i hope that people will be calm and that won't happen. but it could, it could. >> well, it's very febrile at the moment, isn't it, chris? the problem with all of this is, i think whether you stand on the left or the right and god knows i'm no fan of donald trump as a politician, i just think it's so obviously dangerous when you take a misdemeanour that is beyond the statute of limitations attached to it in some spurious way, and try and turn it into a federal crime from a da who doesn't even have federal jurisdiction. the whole thing stinks. it looks like a stitch up. it was, you know, the trump's , defence wanted it not trump's, defence wanted it not to be in manhattan , the place to be in manhattan, the place where i think he pulled at 5. yeah. so it was never the judge himself had donated to an anti—trump campaign. it's

unbelievable. surely in that case, he has to recuse himself . case, he has to recuse himself. so clearly it'll get turned over on appeal anyway . on appeal anyway. >> right. but the question is, what happens if he ends up in prison? right you know, i don't think it's going to be a lovely, calm day where everybody says , calm day where everybody says, oh, fair enough, then. i mean, i think because of all the reasons you've just listed, i think trump supporters and some people who aren't trump supporters are just going to be horrified that the system has been misused. yes. and i don't think, you know, i don't think the average person is going to be violent. but i think we know that trump's got some very, very red blooded excited supporters. >> well, okay, so the violence aside, doesn't this if he loses, if he's sent to prison cannot campaign as a result and then loses doesn't that make the whole election illegitimate since the opponent has had their opponent locked away for spunous opponent locked away for spurious means? i mean, i don't see how this is anything other than an own goal for the democrats. i just don't see that. >> it was when you said he was going to slam the judge. is this in the way that he allegedly slammed stormy daniels? >> no, it's going to be very

different. >> right? okay. i just wanted to be sure of all this. >> yeah. no, i think he's he's going to be blaming the judge. but you know, i would have thought that in a trial of this kind, if the judge has donated to a campaign that should make him invalid. i mean, for instance, if he had donated to a trump campaign, do you think the democrats would have said that that judge is fine? let's keep him. >> but that's the whole thing. so if you go back to scotland, then what if the judge investigating, say, i don't know, alleged financial irregularity with the party, if he'd been given a camper van just for argument's sake, would that then make the whole thing null and void as well? >> i'm glad that you're using the phrase allegedly. yes you know, this is just a pure hypothetical. >> absolutely. i have not touched the wine. >> it's very it's the whole thing is very interesting. i can't think where it's going to 90, can't think where it's going to go, but i just don't i mean, i've seen some very critical comments from lawyers and people on the left saying this is a this is not good. you know, there's no precedent for this. and you know, it's bizarre that it's gone this far, but i think it's gone this far, but i think it could be a disaster for democracy. anyway, let's move on. do we have another question? we've got one from joe. joe. >> good evening everyone.

yesterday is daring rescue by israel of its own hostages was , israel of its own hostages was, well was much celebrated. and yet at the same time , israel was yet at the same time, israel was condemned for the loss of civilian life in the process. and that civilian life placed in in the way by hamas. what do the panel think about that coexistence of celebration? and i mean, joe, what do you think about that? >> because i saw a bbc interviewer asking a representative of the idf and saying, well, couldn't you have warned those civilians in advance? which struck me as actually a really stupid question. >> they'll sound like a stupid question, because the whole thing was, this rescue apparently was planned for months and in very, very secretly. yes. and there were secrets kept within israel itself, let alone revealing secrets to the palestinians. it would have been farcical. >> well, of course, because they would have shot the hostages immediately. i mean, so this is the thing about all civilian life, actually, all loss of human life is tragic as far as i'm concerned , and i don't think i'm concerned, and i don't think anyone would be celebrating that . but if you don't want the loss of human life, don't take hostages , you know, or release hostages, you know, or release these innocent people, right?

>> yeah . we've heard this time >> yeah. we've heard this time and time and time again. let the hostages go. that's the end of the war. and it just hasn't happened. and in the majority, lots of times we've heard israel letting gaza know, telling people when to evacuate. they've gone above and beyond at other times, but they're always held to this incredibly high standard. and as you say yesterday, that's that just wasn't possible in this case. yeah. >> but i mean, how is it not the case that hamas are not being held responsible for the deaths of these civilians? >> well, in my eyes, it is it is their responsibility. that's the way i see it. but it's not the way i see it. but it's not the way everybody sees it. >> no, sure. but i understand the strength of feelings. that or like i say, all loss of life is horrible and war is absolutely horrible. i mean, i get that, i get that, but i, i don't understand the victim blaming here. these people have done nothing wrong. they were at a music festival and they were dragged away. many of the women were raped, many of them have been killed and tortured. this is, you know, these are the victims. >> yeah. no, completely. i just it it really my mind is small enough as is. and this just takes it to another level. i can't comprehend . can't comprehend. >> okay. well, look. well, thanks, joe, for that question. anyway. it's a difficult subject

, but next on free speech nation, we're going to talk about rishi sunak , who snubbed about rishi sunak, who snubbed d—day veterans by leaving the memorial service early. and we're also going to talk about the first televised debate between sunak and starmer , we're between sunak and starmer, we're going to discuss all of that and more with the deputy editor of spiked online, frazer meyer. so please join us in a few minutes. i.

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. so rishi sunak was found wanting after leaving d—day commemorations early. and the first televised leaders debate was seen by many as just a bit boring. so to discuss all this and more, i'm joined by the deputy editor of spiked online, frazer myers. welcome to the show. thanks for having me. >> now, a lot of people are very confused about this, because it doesn't look as though leaving the d—day commemoration early

could possibly appeal to any voter group left right anywhere in between. >> hasn't he just alienated ev eryone? everyone? >> yeah, you start to think, is he trying to lose this election deliberately? i mean, what worst thing could he have done? maybe he could have punched an nhs nurse or. or stole a puppy from an orphan . i mean, what on earth an orphan. i mean, what on earth was he thinking? he and his advisers have to be the only people in britain that didn't understand how important the d—day commemorations are. this is the last opportunity , is the last opportunity, especially for those veterans, probably the last time they'll be alive to celebrate a significant anniversary. and d—day is absolutely integral to the british national identity . the british national identity. you know, it's the thing we celebrate most of all, the victory of the second world war, the victory of democracy over fascism and d—day was absolutely critical to that. it's just left everyone scratching their heads. how could he have missed it? >> well, a lot of people were saying, well, maybe he had some family emergency or something like this. but then itv did say, actually, this was offered by sunaks team , this slot. sunaks team, this slot. >> he genuinely seemed to think that a sit down interview with paul brand from itv, the political editor, was more

important than being at this d—day commemoration. i mean, this interview was booked in weeks in advance, so there was plenty of time to actually point out the clash. the date was chosen, as you say, by team sunak, not by itv. they didn't give him an ultimatum and say you do this, you either do this interview or today or never , so interview or today or never, so it seems to have been his choice entirely, and it's the probably one of the biggest political misjudgements during an election campaign of our lifetimes. and it's happened in an election where rishi sunak began around 20 points behind in the poll, in the polls, he needed to not put a single foot wrong. he needed to have a miraculous comeback and he seems to have put every foot wrong instead. so is it the case that this isn't just a gaffe? >> as far as you can see? you think it's more than that? >> i think this is i think this is much bigger than that. i think there's around two thirds of voters say that he got this wrong. i mean, you've noticed that even the way that he's reacted, he felt that he needed to apologise the next day, very rare for politicians to apologise that quickly. he has cancelled his media interviews.

he hasn't been seen on television for the past 48 hours. clearly, he is lying low. >> well, i think in fairness, we should show rishi sunak's apology. let's have a look. >> i said the itinerary for these events was set weeks ago, before the general election campaign . i participated in campaign. i participated in events both in portsmouth and in france , and having fully france, and having fully participated in all the british events with british veterans, i returned home before the international leaders event . international leaders event. that was a mistake and i apologise for that . apologise for that. >> so, so much of this is about the optics, isn't it ? and that the optics, isn't it? and that photograph of the world leaders with david cameron representing us, that was probably the thing that's really done it i think. >> so that's the biggest, clearest visual representation of this snub. maybe if it weren't for that photo opportunity, he might have got away with it. maybe we wouldn't have have noticed it. i think you know, i'm trying my best to understand his his thinking. i think he is kind of like he's a spreadsheet man, isn't he? so he probably thinks , well, he did probably thinks, well, he did that. he ticked off the d—day thing and he needs to do the interview . he needs to tick that interview. he needs to tick that thing off. tick off the next thing off. tick off the next

thing you see this in the way he he launches policies is, well, if i've got more policies than laboun if i've got more policies than labour, therefore, you know i'm the best person to vote for. it doesn't matter if those are good or bad policies, you know. well he will be very busy to be he will be very busy. and he likes to give off this sense that he's energetic and, you know, full of activity. so maybe he thought that that would, you know, come across well, it's just as you say, what a mistake. >> yeah. so what next for him? because the timing hasn't been great given the news of nigel farage and reform. i mean, the sort of concatenation of these two things. yeah. do you think thatis two things. yeah. do you think that is going to be the thing that is going to be the thing that that damages him? >> it's entirely possible that it could be terminal for the tories. you know, some of the polling is suggesting that, you know, farage and the reform party are within 2 or 3 points of the conservative party that could that close, could it be next week? might reform overtake the tories . now we don't know if the tories. now we don't know if that will actually means that the reform will get a lot of seats, because of the way our first past the post electoral system works. but they could really, really do a lot of damage in seats across the country taking votes off the

conservatives, potentially giving labour a bigger victory. and there is a precedent for this . i and there is a precedent for this. i mean, we talk a lot about, you know, will this election be like 1997, but actually nigel farage is looking to canada in 1993. this was when the governing conservative party was actually reduced to two seats. now, i don't think it's going to be that bad for rishi sunak or anything, anything close like that. but one of the reasons it lost so badly was because there was a challenger party, a right wing populist party, a right wing populist party called reform and i think nigel farage knew what he was doing when he gave his party that name. he's looking beyond to the next election to set the tone for, you know, the right of politics. during the labour government. >> so on a general point, is there now an appetite, do you think, a kind of populist appetite to really shake up the electoral system, get rid of first past the post, possibly have proportional representation so we can have other parties in there? because you've also got george galloway, of course, with the workers party standing . what the workers party standing. what is it, something like 500, seats, you know, so this is significant from both sides. >> i think that's right. i think there's an there's an appetite on all sides of politics left

and right, you know, wherever you see yourself on the political spectrum for something different, for change, because people look at the two main parties, they see they're offering very, very similar policies . his, you know, on the policies. his, you know, on the economy, you cannot put a cigarette paper between them, and actually, you could see even some of the more , more some of the more, more established minor parties are not offering much. that's different . anyone who will have different. anyone who will have seen the bbc debate on friday will have seen essentially six parties agreeing with a kind of consensus on whether it's, you know, nhs or net zero. and nigel farage. i don't think he has the answers, but at least he's saying there are problems here. you know, there are issues with that consensus, george galloway actually, you know, again , actually, you know, again, challenging the consensus on on similar kinds of issues. >> people are saying that the, the debate between starmer and sunak was boring. do you think that's fair? >> i think i think that's completely reasonable interpreted version. i mean it was interesting because they're both they're both boring and sort of they're both sort of technocratic in different ways. and so you have, sunak trying to

show off that he has all these buzzy policies and ideas, and you have starmer who kind of sends you to sleep, you know, who just wants to. he just doesn't want to frighten the horses. he just thinks, if i can just hold on, you know, then i'll get in. but what what does he stand for beyond getting elected? but i mean, that worked for joe biden. >> he just forjoe biden. >> he just hid in a basement for the whole campaign. >> that's true. it can be a successful, successful strategy. just watch your opponent, implode. i mean, there's a sort of adage in british politics that, oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them . that's probably a keir starmer's defining philosophy. >> so what now then? i mean, it sounds like from all you've described with the polls , with described with the polls, with the rise of reform and all the rest of it, that the tories are in a real parlous state, what can they do? >> what can they do? i suspect they can't really turn things around in the next four weeks. i think what's going to be interesting is, you know, if we do get a majority labour government, it won't be out of enthusiasm for the labour party. and that's going to create a really big disconnect between what's going on in parliament and the rest of the country. and that potentially leads us to, you know, a quite volatile

situation. i think, you know, what we've seen , with the rise what we've seen, with the rise and fall of the tories, you know, 2019, they had incredible success at the last election. looks like they're going to crumble here. what goes up can come down just as quickly. and that's a warning for keir starmer as well. what does this mean for democracy generally. >> i mean perhaps an interesting precedent might be the french situation when emmanuel macron was first elected. a lot of those ballots were spoilt. yeah. i mean a significant proportion. >> yeah. record levels of spoilt ballots. >> so people didn't really want him. it was almost like, well we don't want le pen, so we may as well have him, but we don't really want him. that seemed to be the message that was being sent. >> yeah, exactly. and an almost sort of negative vote. and i think that's what you're seeing with, you know, keir starmer's success at the moment. so what what peoples of that, what people want to see is new movements with new ideas that can actually speak to some of the challenges of our time, rather than you get the sense that starmer and sunak, to a certain extent as well. they're just avoiding talking about the big issues . they want to help, big issues. they want to help, you know, they want to argue about tax levels, tinkering with the tax levels. but there is much deeper problems with our

economy, with society , in our economy, with society, in our culture. yes, they need addressing. >> so, i mean, gaffes aside, i mean, obviously, you know, suggesting that we need national service in the same week as snubbing veterans isn't great. and then going to an event the next day on a road called veterans way. yeah, i mean, it sounds completely planned. >> i mean , his election campaign >> i mean, his election campaign was like it was written by keir starmer. you think because remember, it started off in the rain. it was drowned out by the new labour theme tune. the very next day, he he appeared in the titanic quarter of belfast. so people were obviously asking, is this the same, the sinking ship? yeah. everything. you know he he needed a flawless, brilliant election campaign and everything has gone wrong at every stage. >> so do you see this very much as people looking now for a for change to have a choice between an actual left wing and an actual right wing party and that maybe this actually could end up shaking up the whole system? >> i do hope so, because, you know, the watchword of keir starmer has changed, but i think everyone knows that not that much is going to change under a labour government. so what people do want is you're right, they want choice. they want polity to have actual political

arguments, you know, not just not just shouting slogans at each other, but then a lot of people would say that if we did get in a situation where a smaller party had sufficient leverage to force a referendum on pr, for instance, then actually, if you did get proportional representation, nothing would get done and people would point to places such as italy and say, well, look at that. >> i mean, it's a disaster because of these continual coalitions and hung parliaments. >> i think it can. i think that's more of a reflection of the sort of underlying political volatility in those places. you know, the problem is that we are we are rapidly the public is rapidly , you know, falling away rapidly, you know, falling away from the two main parties. and we've been becoming more distant from them for over a long period of time. i just don't think our current system is sustainable for that much longer. it could have held 20 years ago, but now it just feels like people want more choice. >> so is this a product of major parties running to the centre, leaving people with not enough choice, generating this populist mood and at the same time, you have major political figures demonising the very notion of populism. yeah, populism seems to be a dirty word for a lot of people, doesn't it ? people, doesn't it? >> it shouldn't be, really,

because, you know, at its heart, it's giving the public what they want, which is another way of saying democracy. yeah. so, you know, often the two are the same. i mean, look , people have same. i mean, look, people have every right to criticise the policies that nigel farage is putting forward. or maybe you don't like their language or rhetoric, how they how they go about things. but to demonise populism in of itself as a bad thing, as if, you know, connecting with the public, energising the public, getting more people into involved and interested in politics is a bad thing, is it? that just seems to me to get it completely the wrong way around. i mean, you know, the problem is the two parties seem to think they act as if they have a right to rule. they act as if, you know, you will vote for us because you have nowhere else to go, i think that is, you know, that proposition is running out. i think other parties will spring up to challenge that. >> and finally , fraser, do you >> and finally, fraser, do you think that this is the immigration election , as nigel immigration election, as nigel farage has suggested? >> i think it's immigration is not the number one issue for the majority of the public, but it's a huge issue for many of the people who voted tory in 2019 and who are either going to reform many of them, some of

them going to labour, but even more of them not voting at all. so in that sense, the election will be you know, immigration will be you know, immigration will be you know, immigration will be a big deciding factor in the election. even if ironically, that ends up, you know, bringing in a labour government who most people don't trust to get a handle on, on immigration. well, we'll see what happens. >> it's nothing if not dramatic this campaign anyway. thank you so much forjoining me. fraser myers . and next on free speech myers. and next on free speech nation, fiona harvey , who is nation, fiona harvey, who is widely accepted as the real life martha from the hit netflix series baby reindeer, is suing netflix for $170 million. we're going to be joined by a high flying lawyer next to discuss what will happen next. see you in a

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me , andrew doyle. so nation with me, andrew doyle. so

the woman who claims she is the inspiration for netflix's stalking drama baby reindeer is suing the streaming platform for $170 million. fiona harvey, who says lead character martha's life is based on her own, denies ever going to prison or to court as the show portrays. harvey alleges netflix allowed viewers to track her down in real life and that she is now being inundated with abuse, according to legal dossiers obtained by tmz. and so to discuss this , i'm tmz. and so to discuss this, i'm joined by the lawyerjoseph munson. welcome to the show. this is a very complicated and unprecedented situation. we're deaung unprecedented situation. we're dealing with a richard guard who is a stand up comedian and a creative individual who is who is a written a drama based on real life events . isn't he real life events. isn't he allowed some artistic license in terms of how he portrays that? >> well, andrew, you always start with the big questions, don't you? yeah. well there's muck, there's brass. we're going into los angeles in the libel court, and it's over.

reputational damage. it's about whether statements made about apparently about fiona harvey, as i think you rightly say , it's as i think you rightly say, it's generally accepted that it's her, but were those statements, were those contentions, in the, were those contentions, in the, were those contentions in the series correct ? probably more series correct? probably more importantly, was what netflix , importantly, was what netflix, executive benjamin king said to a select committee a couple of weeks ago. was that true ? weeks ago. was that true? because he called it the true story of a convicted stalker. well, those are big words, aren't they ? do you know what? aren't they? do you know what? if she got five years, that's really , something i would not really, something i would not expect. and the reason for that. so let's clarify that. >> so, so you have an executive from netflix saying this is based on a true story about a stalker at the beginning of the first episode, the words come up, this is a true story , not up, this is a true story, not this is based on a true story. you also have the press release from netflix saying that this is a true story. is that the issue ?

a true story. is that the issue? had they simply put based on a true story or inserm hired by real life events, would that then be okay? because i do worry about people saying to creatives, you can't use elements of your own life in yourin elements of your own life in your in your own work. it's a good point. >> and lawyers often use phrases like fact and degree. what they're talking about really is they're talking about really is the total context . so yeah, but the total context. so yeah, but what you don't do is make the lead actress look pretty similar to who we've seen on piers morgan. in an interview , for morgan. in an interview, for example, saying how upset she is, fiona harvey , i think the is, fiona harvey, i think the difficulties are technical, however, because i don't think that this is about whether we're bothered from the point of view of fiona harvey's reputation, whether she was convicted or not, because in fact, laura rae is a scottish barrister who's come forward , also spoken to come forward, also spoken to piers morgan and basically said ,

piers morgan and basically said, yeah, i was stalked by this person. i'm the lawyer they were talking about. it's my son, my disabled son, who she reported me for, for abusing to the police. now, i'm not saying that that's true, but she says there was something called an interim interdict, which is a scottish equivalent of a restraining order or a non—molestation order. now, if that's true , order. now, if that's true, well, let me ask you about that. >> if it is the case that because obviously, even the show itself alludes to this idea that the character of martha was previously in trouble for stalking or allegations of stalking, there have been allegations against fiona harvey, that this is the case, that she's also sent numerous obsessive messages to other individuals, including a senior politician . now, if those things politician. now, if those things turn out to be true , does that turn out to be true, does that mean that she has no right to sue for things that are not true within the series? >> well, it's interesting because the way that libel law works is if you can justify the major part of the libel, then you can get away with it. this is what found out, i think the

news of the world, when they said that max mosley was cavorting with nazi escorts, they weren't nazi escorts. and that was so scurrilous beyond the beyond the fact that they were they were sex workers. well, i you know, that that he was partially successful in that claim. so publishers can only go so far in terms of making mistakes. but it's an interesting question . this there interesting question. this there could be a technical finding based on the fact that incorrect things have been said, but then it's a question of proving reputational harm , whether there reputational harm, whether there has been actual loss , i has been actual loss, i understand, although i'm not professing to know this , not professing to know this, not having seen a finding on it that fiona harvey has not got a significant work history. so claiming loss of earnings will be difficult. and what is the real harm if the evidence is there and it goes to the evidence, not necessarily what has been said about the evidence by netflix about whether there

was a conviction or not, if she is a stalker , a claim will is a stalker, a claim will either fail or damages will be negligible. and those no win, no fee presumably , lawyers that fee presumably, lawyers that have approached her as often happensin have approached her as often happens in america, where there's a dollar to be earned , there's a dollar to be earned, on a no win, no fee basis, and claiming this $170 million, well, they won't get very far on their 25. >> so that's very interesting. so if it is determined that she did behave in, in, in this way thatis did behave in, in, in this way that is alleged in terms of the activity that has been deemed stalking, stalking , then it stalking, stalking, then it doesn't matter from what you're saying. it doesn't matter that there are suggestions in the series that she sexually assaulted him, that there are suggestions that she went to prison and was was was convicted. you're saying that those things might not matter? >> well, there are different issues.i >> well, there are different issues. i think one saying that somebody's been sexually assaulted, another person is probably worse than stalking. it's materially different. i think the punishment for the stalking is less important than than whether the stalking took

place . and i have to say, i am place. and i have to say, i am deeply sceptical about the idea of a five year sentence. the landmark case in 1996, i think it was anthony burstow , you may it was anthony burstow, you may remember it. it was one in which, gbh, grievous bodily harm, assault, was pleaded guilty to by the defendant on the basis that the stalking was so bad it caused real significant psychological harm that was only a three year sentence. this five years. i'm sceptical about it. it remains to be seen. >> i mean, surely that will be on record . it will be a matter on record. it will be a matter of fact, whether she was convicted and went to prison or not. and presumably she wouldn't bnng not. and presumably she wouldn't bring this case, if that were if that were in fact true, wouldn't make any sense, would it, in my job, all the time, people say and sometimes defendants or witnesses say, well, i wouldn't have done that because then i would have got caught. so obviously, logically , i wouldn't obviously, logically, i wouldn't

have done that. or why would i do that stupid thing? people do stupid things all the time. i'm not saying she has done made a mistake or her lawyers have made a mistake or not, but i wouldn't read in and assume the logic of their actions as to the fact that something exists behind it. >> can i ask you very finally about this question of artistic freedom and the impact on creatives? because if it is determined that the lawsuit is successful, if it is the case that netflix has actually made a real mistake here in terms of their depiction of a real life individual will, will they be hyper cautious in the future? will stand up? comedians have to be extremely cautious about mentioning individuals from their own life? is that is it going to change the whole industry ? industry? >> vie stand up comedians are already pretty careful when it when it comes to talking about other people and netflix, not the ones i know . well, i think the ones i know. well, i think talking about cases where there's still subjudice they still have to be heard. for example, i think for the most

part, apart from in the respect of r kelly, who i remember, dave chappelle , say, i think that guy chappelle, say, i think that guy did it, having listened , of did it, having listened, of course, in advance to those audios of him boasting of his crimes as he was conducting them. that's one thing, but i think , generally speaking, think, generally speaking, comedians are careful. i think people like netflix, organisations like netflix, they should be hyper vigilant. these are people's lives and while baby reindeer, it's an important it's a seminal cultural event. it talks about issues of male abuse. it talks about stalking. it's wonderfully written . it's it's wonderfully written. it's brilliantly acted. it has a sense of real intimacy in the way that it gets the message across . but netflix haven't been across. but netflix haven't been cautious . the casting of the cautious. the casting of the individual as the alleged stalker just very poor. individual as the alleged stalkerjust very poor. and as stalker just very poor. and as for saying that she'd been convicted when it may be that they hadn't actually checked it?

well, i'm afraid joseph does not advise you netflix to do that again. >> absolutely fascinating. thank you so much forjoining me tonight. really appreciate it. so next up free speech nation. we're going to be taking a look at what has gone viral online this week in social sensations. and also i'm going to be turning agony uncle where we're going to deal with your unfiltered dilemmas. see you in a

>> on mark dolan tonight. in a take at ten special, i'll be paying take at ten special, i'll be paying tribute to the tv doctor , paying tribute to the tv doctor, michael mosley and explain how his incredibly simple and effective method has helped millions of people to lose weight and reverse their diabetes. don't miss it. it may just save your life. plus, tomorrow's papers and widdicombe royal expert angela levin and my top pundits. we're live at nine.

oh. welcome back to free speech nafion oh. welcome back to free speech nation with me. >> andrew doyle. this is time for social sensations. now that's the part of the show where we look at what's been going viral on the dreaded social media. so first up, we've got this clip of director and lead actress of the new star wars franchise discussing the show's sexuality. let's have a look. >> we'll have told me that it's the gay of star wars, and i frankly , you're offended into frankly, you're offended into it. no >> i think that star wars is so gay already. okay. i mean, have you seen the fits ? we'd be like, you seen the fits? we'd be like, look how gay this is. and then send each other a reference photo. >> and are you telling me with a straight face that c—3po is straight? >> so obviously c—3po isn't straight, but but but the thing is. >> shiny camper. >> shiny camper. >> yes, yes, of course. but then you know, they do tend to infuse the latest star wars stuff with identity politics. there was even an interview where i think the actress said that the whole point of this new show is to make white people cry.

>> i did see that. yeah. what a statement. what? >> why alienate a lot of potential fans? >> great question andrew. are they challenging themselves ? i they challenging themselves? i don't know, i mean, it's traditionally isn't star wars mainly aimed at sort of straight, frustrated, frustrated straight, frustrated, frustrated straight men in their bedrooms ? straight men in their bedrooms? >> well, i mean, yes, i was a fan when i was a child, so i might be backing up the other side of it. i had the millennium falcon and all that kind of stuff, and i actually had a costume of c—3po and lightsaber. >> yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all, but but the sort of princess leia in the gold bikini that you weren't the demographic for that, but no interest. >> you were more. you know what? i hate exploitation . i hate exploitation. >> well, there we go. there we go. you're more a chewbacca man, aren't you? >> there we go, let's move on now, so in this video, there's a well, it's a giraffe video. let's just leave it at that and have a look. >> do you want to feed the giraffe ? beat him. look. feed giraffe? beat him. look. feed him. come here. look oh, look. >> oh. oh hey . oh, okay.

>> oh. oh hey. oh, okay. >> oh. oh hey. oh, okay. >> now i just have to clarify. the giraffe did not, in fact, eat the baby. and the baby was perfectly fine. so we can talk about it. that could have been a really horrible video that we can, but, you know. but it just goes to show animals are not. you can't predict what they're going to do. >> you can't. you have to be careful. >> i think they got more than their money's worth from their day out there. i mean, there's an anecdote. >> it is a hell of an anecdote, isn't it? >> you know. >> you know. >> yeah, but the thing is, i genuinely think that that's bad parenting, because what if the giraffe had. no. i'm being serious. what if the giraffe had tossed the child over? then the giraffe would have been put down. don't allow the giraffe to come in the sunroof. take control of your child. >> don't bring a baby around giraffe. >> exactly. >> exactly. >> grow up. >> grow up. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> throw soup at your child. glue the child to the house. >> there we go. sound advice as usual from bruce, let's move on to the next one. this is defence secretary grant shapps. he got more than he bargained for when he rang sky's political editor, sam coates . sam coates. >> sophie grant shapps, take the calling me. take the call. yeah >> grant shapps is just calling

sam coates. so it's on his apple phone. give him a look. here we go. get it up. but he is gonna take it now. hello, grant shapps. >> you're live on sky news. i'm in the studio with sophy ridge. have you just seen that? you're about to lose your seat? according to the sky news yougov projection. he just put the phone down on me and of course he hung up. >> he was put on the spot, allegedly. >> he might have gone through a tunnel, andrew. >> absolutely. that might be the case. but but was he just are they like mates or something? is that why he was just phoning you up on on air, well, i'll be seeing them down the pub later. i don't know, i don't i see you move in those circles, cressida. i don't i can imagine that grant shapps would know him. >> yeah, i would have thought so. 50. >> so. >> so it's it was just a bad accident that this poll had come out at the time that he was phoning, i guess so, or a very lucky accident. >> if you're sam coates. >> if you're sam coates. >> is that how you react when you have an awkward conversation? you just hang up? yeah. yeah, that's the way to do it, isn't it? >> why did she say apple phone and not iphone? >> who said apple phone? >> who said apple phone? >> sophie. oh, and also i

thought that was tom from the celebrity dating agency. i didn't know sam coates was a real person. he is a real person. >> yeah. this is an education thing. >> you've no idea. >> you've no idea. >> unbelievable. okay let's move on. now we've got this video created by young rappers in cork who wrote their own song in celebration of youth creativity. let's have a listen . hey, you let's have a listen. hey, you can stop what we do. >> i doubt it , can stop what we do. >> i doubt it, we. but the energy will tell you all about it. i searched for my spark and i found this out. everybody in the crowd start bouncing. think you can stop what we do? i doubt it, we got the energy. we tell you all about it. >> seems quite hardcore for a sort of ten year old kids, doesn't it? >> i think they seem quite fascist and militant. i don't like it. do you not? no, it's not soothing. it's not enjoyable. no. >> you see, when i was that age, we were singing mistletoe and wine by cliff richard. >> all right, give me oil in my lamp. keep me burning. exactly. >> all of that kind of stuff. yeah. >> it's brilliant. i think it sounds like the early 2000

streets. i think mike skinner could have been involved. oh, he could have been involved. oh, he could have been involved. oh, he could have been. >> yeah. no. god love him. they're doing something creative. it's. it's very nice. you know, we mustn't we mustn't mock them. bruce. no. >> well i didn't i just said i don't like it, you know. and if they're putting themselves up on they're putting themselves up on the parapet, then they can take the parapet, then they can take the criticism. >> bruce devlin is so brutal. okay, look, this is the part of the show where we talk through your unfiltered dilemmas. so we're going to start with this one from toby. toby says my wife is standing to be an mp at the upcoming election. glad he didn't give his surname. i can't stand the idea of being married to an mp and the attention that comes with it. how can i derail her campaign without it being too obvious? this is one hell of a dysfunctional relationship going on here, i think. what do you think? >> is this true? >> is this true? >> do you think someone's just winding up? >> i think this is a hoax. no. if toby had anything about him, if toby had anything about him, i think he should just pop in and say, wifey. this isn't happening. >> no, exactly. >> no, exactly. >> it's me or it's the career. yeah if he's unhappy about it, bruce. well, sometimes i am , and bruce. well, sometimes i am, and i think you have to be. >> i mean, he would have known, wouldn't he, that he had an mp for a girlfriend or wife. >> well, not if she's just standing now. maybe what he

should do is stand also for an opposing party. >> i mean, so she was a closet mp. i mean, that's actually quite a good idea for like, a show, you know, wouldn't it? anyway let's let's not. we're not pitching for site. we've got another dilemma now from oh. this is an anonymous dilemma. so this could be quite saucy, right. this is the dilemma. my son has started to ask me about god, and he wants to go to church. this isn't what i imagined. i'm jewish, and my partner is an atheist . neither partner is an atheist. neither of us know what to do. help. what do you think? >> i think find a family friend . >> i think find a family friend. a trusted family friend who's a fan of jesus. yes and get them to take the kid along. >> well, you know, the kid should be able to . surely, if should be able to. surely, if the kid does the kid. well, they don't say they don't. give us any details. >> the trouble with anonymous. >> the trouble with anonymous. >> but surely you should accept that your children might have different beliefs than you, and they should be able to do what they should be able to do what they want. yeah, but if you feel uncomfortable going, then why don't you get someone that already goes to take the child? well, there's exactly that. i mean, unless the religion is something like satanism or something, i mean, that might be a problem. >> yes, they can find that on

the internet, i'm sure, but i don't know, maybe take them to a really, really long service if you're trying to put them off, do the equivalent of the smoke. a whole pack of fags thing. absolutely. >> sound advice from cressida wetton. listen, that's all we got time for. but thank you so much for joining got time for. but thank you so much forjoining us for got time for. but thank you so much for joining us for free speech nation. this was the week when rishi sunak managed to offend the whole nation. keir starmer looked relaxed and cool in front of the cameras. no he didn't. and bruce reinvented the short suit. thank you to my panel short suit. thank you to my panel, bruce devlin and cressida wetton and my guests helen pluckrose, helen joyce, chris hilton, francis myers and joseph cottrell johnson. and by the way, if you want to join us live in the studio and be part of our wonderful studio audience, you can easily do that. just go to sro audiences.com. the website is right there on the screen, right now. come along and join us. stay tuned for the brilliant mark dolan tonight night that's coming up in just a moment. and please don't forget that headliners is on every night at 11:00. that's the late night paper preview show, where comedians talk you through the next day's top news stories. that's on tonight and indeed on every night. thanks so much for watching free speech nation. i'll be seeing you next week.

>> that warm feeling inside from boxt boiler is sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> good evening. welcome to your latest gb news weather from the met office. so plenty of rain around for many of us overnight tonight, but there will be some dner tonight, but there will be some drier and brighter interludes to start on monday. this frontal system sinks its way south and eastwards overnight sunday and into the start of monday , but into the start of monday, but high pressure is never too far away. out towards the southwest . away. out towards the southwest. those frontal systems bring areas of rain that have affected northern ireland today across parts of wales, central and northern parts of england through the early hours of monday morning, generally turning drier across northern ireland and parts of scotland, where it's likely to turn chilly under those clear spells, perhaps a touch of grass, frost in places but a much milder

start across much of england and wales, and quite a damp start too, as that area of rain slowly pushes its way south and eastwards through the morning. for scotland, though, despite a chilly start, there will be plenty of sunny spells through the morning across the very far north. plenty of showers, though, pushing their way southwards as we go towards the afternoon. but for southern parts of scotland, northern ireland, even northwestern parts of england, plenty of sunny spells to start the day. wales will also see some sunshine through the morning, but for much of england it's generally a cloudier start to the day and that heavy rain could cause some disruption during the morning rush hour . that disruption during the morning rush hour. that rain disruption during the morning rush hour . that rain continues rush hour. that rain continues to push its way eastwards as we go through the rest of monday morning and in towards the afternoon, but closely followed by plenty of heavy showers pushing their way southwards , pushing their way southwards, these perhaps turning quite persistent across parts of scotland, and they could be quite heavy in places. the best of the sunshine across parts of wales and southwest england. but temperatures still disappointing for the time of year. only 18 or 19 degrees in the south and around 10 to 12 degrees further north. tuesday, generally starts

a little bit drier, though there will still be plenty of showers around, particularly across parts of scotland and along eastern coast as well, and generally a bit of a cloudier day, particularly as we head towards the afternoon. the showers, perhaps not quite as heavy in eastern parts of england as they're going to be on monday, but still some showers around on wednesday as well. there is further outbreaks of rain likely on the way through wednesday, and thursday, but temperatures slowly on the rise looks like things are heating up. >> boxt boilers sponsors of weather

gb news. >> it's coming up to 9:00 on television. on radio and online. in the united kingdom and across the world. this is mark dolan tonight , in the world. this is mark dolan tonight, in my big opinion. the painful truth about this country that no politician is willing to tell you. but i will in just two

minutes time. the truth bombs are coming in a big story as they promise a triple lock on tax due labour's sums. add up. we'll hear from all sides on that one. and in a take at ten special, i'll be paying tribute to the tv doctor, michael mosley , and explain how his incredibly simple and effective method has helped millions of people to lose weight and reverse their type 2 diabetes. don't miss that at 10:00. it may just save your life. michael mosley remembered at ten, but his legacy lives on. two hours of big opinion, big debate and big entertainment . so debate and big entertainment. so much to get through. but first, the news headlines and tatiana sanchez. >> mark, thank you very much. and good evening. the top

stories from the gp newsroom. a