for people that deeply offensive for people that are absolutely gone without . can are absolutely gone without. can i just say give me a break? really? is this what we're now doing in society? shaming anyone that apparently is succeeded and created wealth for themselves ? created wealth for themselves? do we really need to have to have a prime minister who's been on the breadline before they can rule us? give me your thoughts on that. also, i want to talk to you about political reform in this country. so many of us now saying that that is what we need. do we and what would it look like? and get this, i've got not just one but two lords on my program tonight. so it's only fair as well that we debate reforming the house of lords. is that what we need? also speaking of smaller parties, the sdp have revealed their manifesto and among it they say it's time for uk industry to return . is it? uk industry to return. is it? and if so, what would that look like? i've got it all to come and more. but first, the 6:00

news with the legend. that's polly middlehurst . polly middlehurst. >> michelle, thanks very much indeed. and good evening to you. well, the top story from the gb newsroom tonight is that rishi sunak insists he hasn't given up hope of winning the election , hope of winning the election, but he has warned voters not to give labour a blank check . the give labour a blank check. the prime minister was campaigning in lincolnshire this afternoon as new figures emerged, showing the economy recorded no growth in april. that's something of a setback after his recent claim britain's economy had turned a corner. the conservatives pointed to figures that showed there was growth in the months before april. but the liberal democrats said rishi sunak has utterly failed to deliver on his promises. sir keir starmer said labour's plan will renew the country . country. >> the one thing that everybody expected and needed from rishi sunak was stability. after the disaster of liz truss. what he's now done is become the latest

version of liz truss with unfunded commitment outs. and i think the public know voters know that there's a cost to that and they want an alternative. and that's why i'm really pleased that tomorrow in our manifesto, we will take a different approach. we will set out the case for growth, for rebuilding , for putting our rebuilding, for putting our nafion rebuilding, for putting our nation first to go forward . nation first to go forward. >> sir keir starmer now record number of people have lost faith in british politics. that's according to an electoral expert, sir john curtice found that trust and confidence in politics and the overall election system has never been lower . 45% of respondents almost lower. 45% of respondents almost never believe that governments of any party are fully focused on the challenges facing the country, and a record 58% said they almost never trust politicians of any party to tell the truth. that's a 19 point increase from 2020. scotland's

first minister says there should be another referendum on scottish independence within the next five years, joining snp candidate joanna cherry on a visit to a supermarket in edinburgh. john swinney denied suggestions he'd been downplaying the question during his campaign. he said the issue of independence relates to the main concerns of voters , main concerns of voters, including the cost of living. >> what's important is that when i look at the performance of other small european countries , other small european countries, independent countries, i see them delivering a stronger economic performance and stronger public finances than the united kingdom . the united the united kingdom. the united kingdom model is broken. it is absolutely broken . and the false absolutely broken. and the false debate that we're having in this election campaign is demonstrating that the amte power trying to say in this election campaign that there's £18 billion worth of spending cuts, that essentially are baked into the conservatives projections about the future of the economy. and the labour party accepts that . and we party accepts that. and we cannot bear any more austerity within scotland. >> meanwhile, msps have backed

scottish government plans to release prisoners early to ease pressures on the system . over pressures on the system. over 500 prisoners will be released in four waves starting at the end of this month. only inmates serving short sentences of under four years who have 180 days or fewer to serve , will be fewer to serve, will be considered for release. the justice secretary, angela constance, announced that move last month following a spike in inmate numbers and concerns about the capacity of the prison estate, as it's known . miss estate, as it's known. miss constance was also clear that the emergency release is part of a plan that requires long term thinking . now to france, where thinking. now to france, where the president is vowing to fight on even if his party suffers losses in the snap election. he's called emmanuel macron, says dissolving parliament was his only possible response to the gains made by right wing parties in last weekend's european elections. he insists the vote will bring clarity to

the vote will bring clarity to the french public, though polls put the right wing leader, marine le pen, in first place, with centrist macron trailing in third. he's urged political rivals to join him now forging a democratic alliance against le pen's national rally party to the united states, now where the us secretary of state, antony blinken, says some of the latest changes put forward by the terrorist group hamas for a ceasefire in gaza are unworkable, and therefore the war will go on. anthony blinken has been studying the latest demands alongside mediators based in qatar. it's understood hamas will only accept president biden's deal if it gets written guarantees from the united states over a permanent ceasefire and the withdrawal of israeli forces from gaza . israeli forces from gaza. meanwhile, israel's military now says around 160 rockets have been fired into the north of the country from lebanon. hezbollah has claimed responsibility for those attacks . and lastly, in

those attacks. and lastly, in news here at home, the co—operative bank has had to apologise to customers after they complained of a glitch that saw payments taken twice from some small business accounts. people who took to social media to vent their frustration claim they were, in one case, £5,000 out of pocket with no resolution in sight. another said their account had been in overdraft all day, but there was no notification on that from the bank. a spokesperson for co—operative bank apologised for the inconvenience to customers and said a correction is currently being processed. that's the news for the latest stories do sign up to gb news alerts. scan the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. common alerts. >> thank you very much for that, polly. i love that last story there. electronic transactions. you see so many people desperate to refuse cash in this day and age. it's got to be careful what

you wish for because of course these things can always go wrong. i am michelle dewberry and i'm with you until 7:00 tonight. and guess what? this evening i've got not one, but two lords. yes i have, i'm hoping that some of their elite nessis hoping that some of their elite ness is going to rub off on me. let's see what happens by the end at 7:00, shall we? i've got the conservative life peer, lord finkelstein, and i've got the labour life peer, lord glassman. good evening to you, both of you. new face to this programme, elite nurse. i don't even know if that's a word i don't know, it's a lightness, a word. if it's a lightness, a word. if it's not, it is. now let's see. we like it. we're going to talk about reforming the house of lords a bit later on in the programme. get your thoughts coming in on that. you will have some strong opinions. i am sure, as you know, it's not just about us three, it is about you at home. so you can email me gb views @gbnews. com you can go on the website as you already have started doing gb news. com slash your say . or of course you can your say. or of course you can go on twitter or x and you can reach me there @gbnews. but of course 22 days to go until the

election. let's cross live shall we? to our gb news political correspondent katherine forster. for all of the latest. good evening to you. i believe that you're in the so—called spin room ahead of the debate tonight. bring us up to speed with what we're expecting . with what we're expecting. >> yes. good evening. michelle, welcome to the spin room here in grimsby town hall, where in an hour and a half, one of the men that will be prime minister in just over three weeks. we don't know who it will be yet, but both of them will be talking at 20 minutes. given to each of them for an in—depth interview. and then 25 minutes devoted to an audience question and answer session. i'm going to take you for a little tour in a second, but i think it's worth just reflecting on grimsby, a town with, of course, a huge, proud fishing heritage and a classic red wall battleground seat because, in 2019 voters here, this is a heavily leave voting constituency. voters here lent

the conservatives their vote. the conservatives currently have a 7000 majority here. but before then it was a solid labour seat going all the way back to 1935. now labour will be hoping and expecting that they're going to be able to pick this seat up. so let's go for a bit of a wander now. i'll walk backwards. i hopefully not fall over while i'm doing it. just passing somebody about to do a broadcast. so if we could just take a look back now down the room and there's a whole load of journalists, as you can see, busy on their laptops in the middle, some familiar faces, adam boulton down there, john craig, you can see at the end there's a live broadcast going on. if you just look up at the ceiling, it's a really beautiful room, very, very old. this building , lovely lights, building, lovely lights, beautiful paintwork. let's carry on walking . so let's just scooch on walking. so let's just scooch

through here and so we can take a look down here now. so on the left we've got first of the broadcasters that sky talking to our shadow paymaster general jonathan ashworth . that's going jonathan ashworth. that's going out live. now then i think the next camera along is itv. and then i believe we've got channel 4.then then i believe we've got channel 4. then the next little spot is us, then we've got the bbc and then when we come along around to that's peter cardwell. there and let's take a look down this corridor. now there's another room full of journalists, probably no politicians here, but basically this is called the desk room. and this is where a lot of print journalists are going to be sitting and tapping up the latest lines as they drop, as those exciting. we hope things get said this evening. so let's just take a look in here. so as you can see, rows and rows

of journalists with laptops all ready to go. if we look round here, there are some snacks very important , i here, there are some snacks very important, i have to say. not very healthy. look at this. a load of chocolate. a load of fizzy drinks. if you're after something healthy, you're out of luck. but plenty of caffeine . luck. but plenty of caffeine. plenty of chocolate. here. back to you, michelle. >> oh, that looks very, very delicious. i do like those behind the scenes insights there. thank you very much for that, catherine. i've got to say as well, i think catherine have very different opinions on what a beautiful ceiling looks like. i think maybe i might just need to give my spectacles away. i might have missed it, danny, look, you do you think the debate tonight is going to change anything? >> no, i'm not a big believer that it changes much during an election campaign. the split between different parties. so, say, between labour and the liberal democrats or the conservatives and reform can change a bit. but really, elections are determined a long time before the election campaign by basic things leadership, the economy and how long a political party has been

in power . long a political party has been in power. it can. leadership does matter. so insofar as people have not made up their mind about keir starmer , i think mind about keir starmer, i think they've probably made up their mind more about rishi sunak. they've seen more of him. they might be, you know, a bit to play might be, you know, a bit to play for. there and a bit to lose, it's quite difficult to comment on these debates. i watched that spin room. i had to comment for the times newspaper on the last debate, and i had to file everything that i'd seen by 915. the debate didn't finish until nine. so they've got quite a big they've got quite a big job. they haven't got time to stare at the ceiling, so they'll never settle. oh well that'll that you just if they were watching gb news then they will have looked at that ceiling. >> they don't need to be gazing whilst they're on the job. i'll come back to rishi sunak sunak in a second. but, morris, your thoughts on these debates? >> oh, they're completely immaterial now. i mean, this thing is done. i don't think anybody is listening to anything that the conservative party is saying any more. and

particularly rishi sunak. it's just passing them by. >> well, you say no one's listening to stuff that rishi sunak saying they are actually i mean, there's a programme that's going to air. this is the one you'll be familiar with. the fact. do you remember when he said, well, how can you forget when he came home early from the d—day, situation there? it was for this itv interview. well, let me just show you a clip of what is in that interview. watch. >> you are wealthier than the king. what do you do day to day to make sure you're still in touch with the kind of struggles ordinary people face? have you ever gone without something? >> yeah, i mean, i grew up, my family, emigrated here with very little, and that's how i was raised. i was raised with the values of hard work. what did you go without as a child? i went out with lots of things. right, because my parents wanted to put everything into our education and that was priority. >> so what sort of things had to be sacrificed? >> lots of things, right? i mean, give me an example. all sorts of things like lots of people. there'll be all sorts of things that i would have wanted as a kid that i couldn't have. right? famously, sky tv. so that was something that we never had

growing up , actually. and but it growing up, actually. and but it was lots of things. but again, that's that's my experience is obviously going to be what my experience was, what is more important in my values and how i was raised. and i was raised in a household where hard work was really important . you had to really important. you had to work very hard and family was important. service to your community was important . community was important. >> now, i've got to say, there's been a massive backlash to that comment there, apparently it is offensive to people that have genuinely gone without stuff, whether it's food or whatever, that you'd have a prime minister saying those kind of things . saying those kind of things. i've got to say that, danny, i have a slightly different view to this because i don't actually like, what's going on in terms of trying to undermine rishi sunak because of success that his family and his extended family in particular have achieved, or even himself. actually, he's achieved success too. why are we so willing to kind of desperately shame people for wealth? >> i mean, first of all, there are lots of families who, have a

limited budget, even if they're not objectively poor, say . not objectively poor, say. right. and there's a lot of represents a lot of families in britain who were in that position. and actually, you know, i can relate to that. i think i was the son of somebody quite similar. you know, my dad was an academic, my mum was a teacher. and we certainly didn't go without many of the essentials. we had a lovely life, but at the same time we didn't buy things like sky television. so i understand exactly the sort of things that he's aiming at. in other words, it's people who've got there's a limit to what you can spend, but you're not objectively, of course, poor. but my father actually was born into a lot of money. his father did so well in the iron and steel business. he was known as the iron king. he was known as the iron king. he was very wealthy and when the soviets moved into his home city of lvov, he was accused of strengthening the might of capitalist poland and sent to the gulag for being an anti—social element where he he lost and he lost everything. he came to this country. lost and he lost everything. he came to this country . they lived came to this country. they lived on a small house on, the hendon

way near brent cross shopping centre, and they'd wear brent cross shopping centre. ultimately was they had nothing. and this was all because people thought that rich people, the soviets thought that rich people were part of some secretive elite that was undermined , elite that was undermined, joining the will of the people. these are this is very dangerous thinking. so yeah, i worry when anyone gets othered , even for anyone gets othered, even for their privileges, because unquestionably my father was brought up in a very privileged way. and i think it's a language we ought to we ought to avoid. >> yeah. do you agree? >> yeah. do you agree? >> yeah. do you agree? >> yeah . >> yeah. >> yeah. >> i'll just say, danny, i just got back from lviv, which we used to call lemberg, i don't know. yeah, i was there for ten days in ukraine. it'll be interesting to see where your family lived. you know, this is all, you know, the emptiness of this election is reflected in the emptiness of the moral outrage in relation to all this stuff, michelle. so, for example , boris, at the last election, he was educated at eton , but he he was educated at eton, but he had a common touch. he, you know, he could communicate with

people. churchill was a harrow that was never actually was a pubuc that was never actually was a public school boy. tony blair was a public school boy, all from wealthy families . and from wealthy families. and that's not the point. i think what we've got to look at is the utter ineptitude of rishi sunak as a politician . he's inability as a politician. he's inability to connect, he's inability then do you think he's wealth is contributing to that? no. well people say this. i'm saying that's not the point. the point is he has enormous inadequacies in actually functioning as a democratic politician due to his inability to connect. >> it's also because the conservative party so far behind in the polls. and so what's now happening is everyone's trying to find pictures and stories to accompany the overriding story, which is the conservative party is losing the general election. and so, you know, if i asked you what was keir starmer doing today or what did he say on his interview, nobody has the foggiest idea because nobody's actually that interested in that story. i don't think he's all that , you know, there are lots that, you know, there are lots of he has lots of, great things

to say. there's lots of great things to say about keir starmer's intelligence and integrity, as there is about rishi sunak's, by the way. but he's also not a great politician ehhen he's also not a great politician either. at the moment, nobody's that interested in that because the story is all about the conservatives so what i would mainly say about that skyrim remark , i think maurice and remark, i think maurice and i are really agreeing with each other here. how incredibly banal that is, really. i mean, i think you're picking up the most important point about it, which is this attempt to other people because of their wealth. that is thatis because of their wealth. that is that is definitely of importance and worthwhile talking about. but as an election event, really, are we going to choose the prime minister on the basis of whether or not they are slightly maladroit in answering a fairly silly question? >> it is a silly question . and i >> it is a silly question. and i wonder, sometimes i think i had a very lucky escape when i was not elected in hull because i wonder if i was being put in these stupid situations by journalists, how would i react? and i don't actually think that

i would have the patience to keep responding in a professional manner. and i've noficed professional manner. and i've noticed actually, and i don't know if it's just because, michelle, that might make you more popular. >> i mean, if you just genuinely respond to what i'm saying, is it it was almost painful to witness if he said, but the real story is the complete disintegration of the conservative party. it seems to be without direction, without ideological coherence . i've ideological coherence. i've never witnessed actually a party disintegrate like this in real time. and this is without labour generating any enthusiasm. i mean, you remember 97, you were you were around then , whatever you were around then, whatever you were around then, whatever you say. there was a genuine sense of energy and direction about about tony blair and new laboun about about tony blair and new labour, but i but i've never witnessed such a decent chanted election and such a fundamental disintegration of a great political institution of our lives, which is the conservative party. >> but this is your party. do you agree with that? >> i basically do actually. i mean, i where i think i'd part

with a lot of opinion is to say that it began with rishi sunak. i think he made a mistake when he became leader of the conservative party not drawing a line with his predecessor, the conservative party provided two prime ministers in a row whom it then correctly decided for different reasons weren't adequate, weren't adequate for the job. it's also done what i call sack its voters. so the conservative party has been a sort of party with a solid coalition. it decided it was going to change that to a completely different coalition. it then became a small government party trying to be the party for hartlepool, where a lot of people were. a lot of people wanted more public spending. so, i think it's got confused about what it's trying to do. and it's been in power a long time. when you're in power a long time, you're any way challenged, and it's that's what's happened, you know, in a nutshell. but it's more serious for the conservative party because in addition to having beenin because in addition to having been in power for a long time, in addition to, i think, having

these two prime ministers that they then got rid of, they don't really know as a party or we don't really know as a party what the coalition of supporters, the big interesting question is whether that will then happen to labour in 5 to 10 years time as well, that it would build this coalition that's so broad, like the one bofis that's so broad, like the one boris johnson built in 2019, that it no longer knows exactly who it stands for. >> see, i wonder, and perhaps you can tell me your thoughts on this after the break, whether or not the conservative party, people like rishi sunak, etc. must kind of just regret the day that they ever, orchestrated the kind of kicking out of boris johnson.i kind of kicking out of boris johnson. i wonder if they could turn back time, whether they perhaps would do things differently. i'll ask danny to answer that after the break. but also, i want to talk to you. do you think it's time now to have political reform also as well? the green party speaking out today, saying got to tax the more. goodness gracious me. see

hi there. i'm michelle dewberry with you until 7:00 tonight. alongside. but not just one, but two lords. i've got the conservative life peer , lord conservative life peer, lord finkelstein, and i've got labour life peer , lord glassman. good life peer, lord glassman. good evening to both of you , look, we evening to both of you, look, we were just talking about this whole ridiculousness with, rishi sunak focusing obsessively, i would say, on the success that he and his family have achieved , he and his family have achieved, when says rishi sunaks cv makes him a much better place to be prime minister than keir starmer, he , he said. but that starmer, he, he said. but that being said, if i ever did need any tools, it would be keir starmer that he would trust to go and get them, values are much more important, not what money they did or they did not have, say, sheila, i agree, says helen. i'm sick of people going on about rishi's comment, it was his experience . it's his lived his experience. it's his lived experience, i think is the word that we use, and he's entitled to it. yes, indeed he is, cassandra says unless you're

extremely rich, most people have to make choices. that's why we have budgeting and saving. dave says, i have been a conservative all my life and i will always vote tories. but even i can say that rishi is out of touch. i was just asking you before the break, do you think that they made a mistake the tories, by getting rid of boris the way they did? >> well, i was one of those people who was in favour of doing that and i wasn't thinking about the party. boris johnson is a very talented politician. it's certainly conceivable. i don't think it would have personally. my view is it wouldn't have, but it's certainly arguable. arguable we could have, could have a discussion about it, that he might have done better politically. my reasoning for, deciding he should be removed is i don't think we can have a prime minister who can't tell the truth, and i felt that we'd got to the point where we couldn't trust the prime minister to tell the truth to the house of commons, for example, which is a, you know, something that we rely on. as for our system of government to be accountable. so i took the view reluctantly . i mean, i've view reluctantly. i mean, i've always liked boris johnson as a person that he couldn't remain

as prime minister, but that wasn't a political calculation. it wasn't about how best to win the general election. it was a calculation about the country. and for me, that always has got to come first. it as it happens, i think the country would have had a very great difficulty getting past the parties with bofis getting past the parties with boris johnson , and i think it boris johnson, and i think it would have also had a very great difficulty itself getting past the fact that he couldn't tell the fact that he couldn't tell the truth. so i don't think he would have fared well in the election. but, you know, you at least we could have had an argument about that. what we i don't think is to easy have an argument about is whether it was really could you could continue to have a prime minister who routinely would send out his press secretary to tell the press secretary to tell the press and then repeated those things to parliament, things that were not true , and that were not true, and ultimately got suspended from parliament for doing it. yeah. >> i mean, i've got to say, i talked to viewers every day of my life and the subject of boris comes up a lot, and a lot of people do feel very, very betrayed. they feel that they lent boris their their votes. they didn't feel the same sense

of , of, injustice they didn't feel the same sense of, of, injustice or wrongdoing that many people in the conservative party did. and i think that it has i can be as bold as say, i think it has been one of the reasons that many people now feel disconnected , to people now feel disconnected, to politicians and politics, perhaps more generally because they turned out they lent their votes to somebody , and then they votes to somebody, and then they would say that it was ousted without consultation from those people. of course, that is the system that we have, which leads me nicely, into a little segway . me nicely, into a little segway. john curtis there, the very respected pollster , he has been respected pollster, he has been speaking out today. let's have a listen to what he's been saying, together with the fact that we're very concerned about the state of the health service, which, again, is one of the reasons why trust and confidence is low, why so many people are struggling, are on low incomes , struggling, are on low incomes, then, you know, and also, frankly, the political turmoil we've seen in the last 2 or 3 years, you pull all this together. >> you certainly get a look of an electorate that is certainly

concerned about the state of the country . and i just wondering, country. and i just wondering, doubtful whether or not the politicians can turn it around . politicians can turn it around. >> what do you think to this kind of collapsing trust of politicians? >> well, you know, if you look at english history, politicians haven't ever enjoyed a great deal of trust. i mean, if you look at the 18th century, 19th century, the lampoons, the contempt, so i don't think i don't think it's about that, but this idea that you change the electoral system and that restores trust, i completely oppose. >> so you're talking about so this is about 53% of people basically said that they want to change the voting system to something where smaller parties get a better look in le. proportional representation. >> yeah. and i'm just completely against it because what you will witness on july the 4th will be, however disenchanted, however low the turnout, a genuine accountability where politicians will be removed, they will lose their jobs, they will be kicked out.

>> but if you have this party list system, you know which is pr involves , it's only going to pr involves, it's only going to intensify the very narrow amount of people going to politics. and the second thing is, at least one of the glories of our system is that there's a link to place. you actually have to go to the place you represent, and do your campaigning. the party list will be more of a move towards sort of anonymous globalisation. you know, just the homogeneity of the political class, which people are really disenchanted with. so the problem is not with the voting system, there is a huge problem with the quality of people going into politics. but also we're at the early stages of now dealing with actually being a sovereign, democratic country. and it's clear that the politicians , are not up for it. politicians, are not up for it. but just to go back to danny's point, just for a moment on on boris, he was a charismatic politician . i mean, he politician. i mean, he completely transformed him. like max weber would say. he transcended. he looked beyond his party and could connect with people. and there were the three

big ideas. one was brexit, the other was levelling up, which was . and the other was an was. and the other was an alternative economic model. and so it's not just about what your coalition is going to be. it's actually he didn't deliver on levelling up and he didn't deliver on a new economic model. and now there's just a void where, where the party would have tolerated completely, you know, the failure to deliver on, his agenda to the full extent . his agenda to the full extent. >> we could have had an argument about that, that that is not a reason for removing the leader of the party. it's the reason why people may vote against the party at the election. this was about the integrity of the office as far as i was concerned, at least, politicians have always been untrusted. you're right. you know, when the one prime minister we ever had who was assassinated, spencer percival , when he was, when john percival, when he was, when john bellingham shot him in the house of commons, they the crowd tried to overturn bellingham's carriage when they when they arrested him in order that he could run free. he and his wife, who was percival's wife , who was

who was percival's wife, who was round the corner at the great george street, heard the cheers of the crowd. that's one of the ways that you found out her husband had been killed. so so there's always it's not obvious that it's true that politicians are more distrusted now than before . i do worry a bit about before. i do worry a bit about a situation in which votes fragment and the electoral system completely doesn't represent it. but the problem is, if we have an executive in parliament. in other words, if the prime minister is chosen by parliament and by dint of being in parliament, is able to govern the country, if you then fragment parliament in such a way that they're relying on lots of different parties to agree with each other, i think it could be difficult when the liberal democrats and conservatives got together , they conservatives got together, they formed a stable government. lots of people quite liked that mixture. but the problem is that you what you can get is total fragmentation. and we saw how incredibly destabilising that was during the brexit debate, where nobody could actually do

anything. the parliament couldn't deliver what the brexit referendum had had called for. >> yeah, but hold on, because we've we've had very recently a situation where the tories had a majority and many people will be at home pushing back, shouting even when they had that majority, they didn't achieve things like the rwanda plan. it was frustrated at so many different points in terms. so it's kind of so it's people don't like that though, do they? >> michel. so that's exactly i mean, in some ways i think it's right that there should be some institutional breaks on popular , institutional breaks on popular, enthusiasms. right. because i think it should take time to change laws. i think we should have time to consider them. we should have time to review them. and i don't mind the fact that there is a bit of a break for consideration. so i don't want a sort of unmediated, direct democracy . but you do want democracy. but you do want a parliament that has a clear outcome. and if and i think that would be a big loss if we didn't have it. i'm not virulently against it, because i think i can see some circumstances if

the right completely splinters and reform, reform could end up taking, you know, let's say a third of the vote of the right, maybe even 40% of the vote of the right and still not getting any seats. the conservative party would get all get very few seats in that. and then the writer, about 33% of the electorate, but with almost no seats. i think that's. >> but then aren't you then making the argument for proportional? >> no, that is an argument for it. yeah, i am, but i'm saying that that, that and if that were to persist, then i think we would have to we will eventually end up reviewing what the electoral this kind of. but i don't think that's a good way of governing. so what i think is that the right should be able to unite behind one proposition, but that's never going to happen. >> i don't see the right, by the way, as being necessarily the farage right. >> i mean, i think the right should unite to the centre, but that's my particular twist on it , you know. >> but if you look at the 1918 report on proportional, on, you know, electoral reform, they make a really good point. they

say ultimately a, a general election is a referendum on who is going to form a government. right? it's a that one or that one choice. and what we will get is a genuine, you know, acceptance of , we hope a labour acceptance of, we hope a labour government and that will have democratic legitimacy. but it's i mean, if you look at italy , if i mean, if you look at italy, if you look at israel, if you look at these countries with proportional representation on the standing of the political class, is even lower than here. and so it's not in any way a palliative, michel, for disaffection . disaffection. >> right. i also i also, you know, one of the conclusions that my grandfather reached when he'd come through the soviet union, he'd gone to siberia, he'd come to this country via palestine and iraq and uzbekistan and iran. he he thought this country was very well governed . and one of his well governed. and one of his reasons was it wasn't corrupt. and i think we, think of our country and our politicians is it's all a total failure. it's completely corrupt, actually. we live in quite a good country

with a lot of good things to be said about it. so i kicked back a bit about people who think, you know, there are things that are wrong in the political environment and there are things to be said. you know, i think politicians do make because they think voters want them, promises they then can't reach. >> absolutely, well, i'll tell you what some people might say goes wrong in the political system. and that is the house of lords have had quite a few people getting in touch about that. all ready. so let's come back after the break, shall we? and look at whether or not it's time to reform the second chamber, and if so, with what?

hi there. i'm michelle dewberry with you till seven. i've got lord finkelstein alongside me and lord glassman, let's cut to the chase and talk about reform of the house of lords. one of my viewers. you're cheeky so—and—so. you wrote in and said that you regard it as a

luxurious retirement home and said that it needs to be scrapped . tim says it worked scrapped. tim says it worked better with hereditary peers. goodness me, like the monarchy , goodness me, like the monarchy, says calf, the house of lords is a part of british culture. whether or not we like it is irrelevant. we can't change it and its historical prominence we can change, i suspect, should we change it or not? >> i'm in favour of changing it, but i'm not in favour of abolishing it. the reason i'm in favour of changing it is i think there's a problem with with the way people are appointed. there's no suitability filter for. i think it's ridiculous personally, to have hereditary peer by elections. so you're constantly replacing the hereditary peers on it. so i think there's a case for reform. if you abolished it, you would either end up with a house of lords that did everything the government wanted to do. so you'd have a labour majority in the commons and one in the lords, or you'd have a labour majority in the commons and a tory majority in the lords. and the result would be complete deadlock. if you don't have a written constitution, it's very difficult to limit the powers of

the lords. the lords would take every opportunity because they were in another party to stop the commons doing anything. so i think if you wanted to abolish it, if you really feel strongly enough about it, you can abolish the lords altogether. have one parliament. i don't think that's a good idea. so i think there's something to be said for a very limited for a limited parliament in which you do say people have got to be of high calibre, that shouldn't be a retirement home. i think in most cases it actually isn't. i think people put a lot of work into it and concentrate on it, on their task of legislating, of legislating quite well, but if there is a feeling, look, we cannot have these under this undemocratic house, then i don't think we should have one at all. >> maurice, you know, i've really changed my mind since i went into the lords. >> so you talk about that the first, the most important thing is that the job, our job in the lords is to advise and amend. and so we don't challenge the primacy of the commons. and so we do have a democratic system

where ultimately, the commons is primary within the balance of interests. the other thing i want to say about the house of lords, which was a big surprise to me because i really didn't pay any to me because i really didn't pay any attention to it before, is that unlike the commons, it really does have people who know what they're talking about. it does have genuine expertise within it, but got the ex—army people. we've got scientists, we've got people who are actually very distinguished . actually very distinguished. you've got the bishops. so, you know , obviously, given that it know, obviously, given that it actually for no reason whatsoever works very well, i understand why people want to aboush understand why people want to abolish it because, you know , abolish it because, you know, that's how life goes, i, you know, i put forward suggestions, for example, that it should represent the working life of the country. you know, that people should be elected, you know, for ten year periods from nurses should elect a representative, you know, almost like a corporate body that has the experience of the working life . life. >> that's the crucial thing in the lords life. >> they really they really are.

>> they really they really are. >> if the if we reform the appointments procedure far enough, you would make sure that you you got. but there is some effort is taken to see whether we can i would danny i would take a radical view about the corruption, which is that people get the sense that you can buy it for party donations, for giving. >> so i would get rid of any lord that gave a political party more than 50 grand. >> so i wouldn't do that. but what i would do, because i think that's because i think, you know , business people might well donate to a political party, but also be good people who represent kind of what business doesin represent kind of what business does in the house of lords. and some of those are very good contributors to the lords work. what i would do is insist on a suitability filter. so there would the house of lords appointments commission at the moment they can only kick it back to the prime minister if they think that person has been involved in something that lacks integrity. that's scandalous. and the prime minister can then override that. normally doesn't do that, but they can. what they should do is to say we actually think this person has integrity, but they're not suitable

appointment. and what would the suitability criteria be? whether they could contribute to the work of the house of lords filled a role, filled a function that maybe wasn't fulfilled by other members in the chamber, had sufficient standards. >> i hope it wouldn't be an educational system, but it had sufficient standing to contribute. >> so you would definitely want to make sure that we had nursing, people represented, but they would be to do with their, their record. >> but would you add, would you add a time limit to this? because you two are very nice chaps, but you've got life peerages. i don't think that's right or proper. i think it should be timed. >> i'm relaxed about it, but i the only thing about it is you. you would you would lose some expertise. i, you know, i'm speaking for myself. i wouldn't miss it. it's actually quite hard work, so i yes, yes it is. yeah i mean, if you, you know, if you engage in it, it is you don't have to do it. but if you don't have to do it. but if you do it, it's quite hard work. and so i wouldn't it's not something

i cling on to desperately to be honest. >> really. well, if anyone wants to put me in the house of lords, i'll be there, quicker than a quick thing from quickly. >> michelle, i don't think you get through my life. >> i don't think you get through the suitability criteria. >> did you hear that? >> did you hear that? >> it doesn't think that i would pass the suit right. i'm going to sort him out in the when i come i want to talk to you about

>> nothing personal. >> nothing personal. >> hello there . michelle >> hello there. michelle dewberry with you till 7:00 tonight. i've got alongside me. lord finkelstein . and he's still lord finkelstein. and he's still here, lord glassman, he's just told me , in case you've just told me, in case you've just tuned in, that i wouldn't pass the test to get into the house of lords. >> goodness gracious. >> goodness gracious. >> more interested in what those suitability tests would be. >> the, social, the sdp, the social democrat party. they also released their manifesto today. i found it very interesting. there was lots of stuff in there

. one of the key points that they were making is that it was time, they said to reindustrialise as the uk to bnng reindustrialise as the uk to bring the industry back. >> what do you think? >> what do you think? >> i absolutely agree with that. so my wing of the labour party, blue labour, is been historically absolutely committed to reindustrialization. i think this is the huge issue. i mean, danny, you've got a history with the sdp. i'll be interested to hean the sdp. i'll be interested to hear, but this is the essential thing that's not going on in this election, because what we found out in covid michelle was that we couldn't even make face masks . i that we couldn't even make face masks. i mean, the industrial decimation was very profound . decimation was very profound. now we've got this, war in ukraine that a lot of our kit doesn't work. there definitely needs to be a revival of industry for the sake of our democratic sovereignty and our own independence and so on. in this case, i think the sdp, the sdp are on the right track . sdp are on the right track. >> do you agree with that? >> do you agree with that? >> well, i was an sdp candidate in 1987 when they supposedly did. in fact, i was on the they

supposedly the last manifesto in 1987. actually, i was on the manifesto committee. they didn't the sdp didn't have a manifesto then because that was sdp—liberal alliance . and this sdp—liberal alliance. and this isn't really the same body, but it's a very interesting body because nigel farage, while he was a social conservative, is an economic liberal. the only political party that is trying to combine, as it were, a kind of, protectionist nationalism based economic policy with a protectionist , nationalist protectionist, nationalist social policy. is the sdp that makes them quite intellectually interesting to me. i don't think they're a continuation of the sdp. you might say they are interesting. i, i am in favour of an industrial strategy and i was very disappointed. the conservative party decided to move away from that under liz truss. but i think it was a mistake. but i don't think protectionism, which they're proposing where we have to buy british, you know, if you get all of the british public services to buy british increases public spending costs without delivering. so i'm not

in favour of that. boris. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> it's not quite what the saying is that there should be that, that local authorities and government bodies should buy british. that's not exactly protection ism. that's just a certain preferences in government, in government policy. and you know , maybe policy. and you know, maybe there are circumstances because we've reached the end of globalism. so this is this is a hugely momentous time in history with seemingly a very trivial general election going on. but one of the issues is, you know , one of the issues is, you know, how how do we function now that globalisation and all the assumptions of the previous consensus that we've lived through without our lifetimes are breaking down? so how do you respond to the emergence of china? how do you how do we rebuild our defence industry? all of these are absolutely fundamental questions that obviously, michelle, i would like to see raised in the general election. so i appreciate you raising it here. and i think that this idea of industrial strategy is

absolutely fundamental. >> one of my view is, terry, he's got in touch and said, michelle, danny is exactly what is wrong with the so—called right wing. he is a centrist and he wants to pull the tories into the centre alongside the liberals and labour. it's meaning , he liberals and labour. it's meaning, he says, that liberals and labour. it's meaning , he says, that there's meaning, he says, that there's zero choice, all the big parties are the same. and that's where reform conservative parties is a broad church or and i and i'm on one. >> i'm in. >> i'm in. >> he's laughing at that. i'm in one part of it. >> right. so obviously it doesn't cover the whole political spectrum, but it's, you know, it's broader than just me and, you know, i completely admit that i am much closer to the centre, but i do belong distinctively to the centre right. and there's a big difference between the centre right and the centre left. >> you know, i always say, tony, that i'm much too conservative to ever be a member of the conservative party. so i relate to what that is, is that there is a fundamental lack of trust, and i don't think our politics is adjusted to the huge changes that are going on in the world. so i am concerned. so the reason

i'm laughing is that any time there is a debate in labour that's unresolved, we say we're a broad church. that's the question. >> it's a very brief one because we've got about 40s industrial policy. >> is that a right wing or a left wing policy? right. am i right? am i in rejecting nationalist purchases? >> okay, i've got to come in there am i am i right wing or left wing in saying that? it's nehhen left wing in saying that? it's neither. and you've got to say that stanley baldwin really did have an industrial strategy. what's noticeable is that not labour had won in 64. we haven't had one since. and you know, it's wasn't a big success in 64 was it. well it only lasted until 66. so what i'm saying is we haven't really had an industrial strategy since since the 1960s. and how we do that and the role of precious minerals and how we organise our educational system, vocational varne is central to that. >> well, there you go. >> well, there you go. >> many of you getting in touch and saying, all right, just quick two seconds each. give me the main difference, you think, between labour and tory really quick. >> well, tories want to limit

pubuc >> well, tories want to limit public spending and the labour party want to put up taxes as quickly. >> two seconds labour. >> two seconds labour. >> labour is fundamentally committed to quality public service. >> there you go. we've got to go. don't go anywhere though because camilla is up next night. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar , sponsors of weather on . solar, sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> evening time for your latest weather from the met office here on gb news. for many of us, it's been a fine day today. tomorrow a very different story. a cold start and then it'll turn wet. and particularly in the west, very windy. here's the reason why. a couple of sets of weather fronts coming in from the atlantic. ahead of that, we've had a ridge of high pressure which as i said, has brought most of us are fine day. still 1 or 2 showers over northeast scotland and eastern england, but they are fading away and generally it's going to be a dry night with some lengthy clear spells. and that's why it's going to turn chilly temperatures well down into single digits, even in towns and cities, and some rural spots

even lower. so yes, another pretty fresh start tomorrow. generally a dry and a bright start, but not everywhere. here comes the rain trickling in towards northern ireland and west wales, along with southwest england, so rapidly clouding overin england, so rapidly clouding over in the southwest through the morning, much of the midlands and eastern england will start dry. and so, you know, with a bit of sunshine, temperatures will soon start to lift. but turning wet across northern ireland, it's going to be a soggy day here. increasingly windy to most of scotland will start dry again, though. a cold start here and then steadily as we go through then steadily as we go through the day, the cloud and the rain across northern ireland will start to spread its way into southwest scotland, up towards the central belt, the rain drifting into wales and southwest england by lunchtime and then through the afternoon , and then through the afternoon, some of that rain getting into northern england and the midlands. much of eastern england will stay dry through most of the day, along with northern scotland, but in the west, not only turning wet but also windy and usually windy around these western coasts through the afternoon . again through the afternoon. again feeling pretty cool,

particularly with the wet and the windy weather that's moved across northern scotland for friday, where it may well linger elsewhere on friday. it's a blustery, gusty day with, yes, some decent spells of sunshine, but a whole raft of showers so very changeable through friday. one minute it's dry, the next minute you've got a downpour and that showery picture continuing into the weekend and staying on the cool side. >> looks like things are heating up . boxt boilers sponsors of up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather

gb news. >> good evening, and welcome to vote 2024. the people decide with me. camilla tominey. anotherjam packed show lined up for you. tonight. we're going to be discussing whether health mots for the elderly will solve , mots for the elderly will solve, solve a and e waiting times. we're going to be discussing

that with an nhs expert. and should we stop going to the pub for work socials so that muslim colleagues aren't excluded? that's what one law firm has called for. we'll be discussing that all to come on vote 2024. the people decide . the people decide. we'll also talk to mr pothole himself on labour's plans to fill in our bumpy roads. don't forget to get your views in by visiting our website gbnews.com forward slash your say. but first, here's the news with polly middlehurst . polly middlehurst. >> camilla thank you and good evening to you. well the top story from the gp newsroom is that rishi sunak insists he hasn't given up hope of winning the uk election, but he has

warned voters not to give